Border Force Budget 2016-17

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 20th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat as a Statement the response to an Urgent Question given in the other place by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary on the Border Force budget for 2016-17. The Statement is as follows.

“Mr Speaker, the first priority of government is the safety and security of its citizens. The Government have always made the integrity of the UK border a priority and we will never compromise on keeping the people of this country safe from terrorism, criminality and illegal immigration.

My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will publish the Treasury main supply estimates in just over an hour’s time, setting out estimated budget allocations for the whole of government, including Border Force, for the 2016-17 financial year. In advance of those figures being laid in the House Library, I can inform the House that these estimates will show the indicative budget for Border Force is £558.1 million in 2016-17, a 0.4% reduction in the overall resource spending compared with the 2015-16 supplementary estimate. At the same time, we will increase capital spending at the border by just over 70%, from £40.1 million in 2015-16 to an estimated £68.3 million in 2016-17.

This means that Border Force spending is to all intents and purposes protected compared with 2015-16, with increased capital investment to improve the technology at the border to improve security and intelligence and strengthen control. Over the next four years, we will invest £130 million in state-of-the-art technology at the border.

Since I became Home Secretary six years ago, we have pursued an ambitious programme of reform at the border to keep this country safe. In the last Parliament, we abolished the dysfunctional UK Border Agency, set up under the last Labour Government, and made Border Force directly accountable to Ministers within the Home Office. Since then, Border Force has transformed its working practices, command and control, and leadership. We have invested in new technology like e-gates at airports and heartbeat monitors at freight ports to improve security, prevent illegal entry to the UK, benefit passengers and deliver efficiencies.

At the same time, I have worked closely with my French counterpart, Bernard Cazeneuve, to secure the juxtaposed controls in Calais and Coquelles, reduce the number of migrants attempting to reach the UK, and safeguard UK drivers and hauliers travelling through those ports. We have developed a robust, intelligence-led approach to organised crime at the border, working closely with the National Crime Agency we established in 2012. We have supported greater collaboration between counterterrorism police and Border Force, while increasing counterterrorism budgets to prevent foreign fighters returning and dangerous terrorists travelling to the UK.

These reforms are working. Border security has been enhanced. Border Force continues to perform 100% checks on scheduled passengers arriving in the United Kingdom. Where passengers are deemed a threat to public safety, we can and do exclude them from the UK. In total, 99,020 people have been refused entry to the UK since 2010. We are also disrupting more organised crime at the UK border than ever before. In the past year, Border Force has seized nearly eight tonnes of class A drugs, more than two and a half times as much as in 2009-10. Meanwhile, legitimate passengers and hauliers of goods continue to be provided with excellent levels of service.

The Government remain committed to making further investments where necessary to exploit new technology and strengthen controls. In doing so, Border Force will grow more efficient year on year while improving security for the safety of citizens, businesses and the country as a whole”.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made in response to an Urgent Question asked in the House of Commons. The Answer now confirms that the revenue budget for the Border Force for 2016-17 is some 10% less than it was in 2012-13, which no doubt explains in part why the Government are not in control of our borders. If they still maintain that they are in control of our borders, can the noble Lord say whether 100% checks are made on every lorry entering this country? I await to see whether he can give a more direct answer to that question than his right honourable friend the Home Secretary managed in the Commons earlier today.

Finally, in a letter published in the Daily Telegraph today from, to use the words of that newspaper, the country’s most senior security experts—who include two Members of this House—there is a reference to the need better to secure this country’s borders followed by a call for the Government to review security at our borders. Will the Government now agree to undertake the review called for in the letter?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as I have already alluded to, border security has been enhanced and Border Force continues to perform 100% checks on scheduled passengers. As for lorries, we perform rigorous border checks on scheduled arrivals. The noble Lord mentioned specifically a letter that has been written today and the steps that the Government have taken. I am sure that if he reflects on the changes that have been made—apart from the creation of, as I said, a more flexible Border Force, which has allowed us to address the challenges and needs across the country as a whole—we have seen various programmes which have delivered incremental improvements to e-Borders vision, such as the Schengen information system, the warnings index on migration and improved exit checks. We continue to work very closely with our European partners across the board to ensure that we protect not only our borders but borders across the European Union from threats based around security and terrorism.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, while handbags at dawn over the Border Force budget between the chair of the Commons Home Affairs Committee and the Home Secretary might be entertaining, the crucial question must be whether Border Force has and will continue to have the resources it needs to safeguard UK borders from threats of foreign terrorism and illegal immigration, bearing in mind that the Home Secretary has now confirmed that the budget for the Border Force is decreasing while it would appear that the threats are increasing.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I agree with the second part of the noble Lord’s statement: as the challenges and threats are increasing we need to respond accordingly. As I alluded to in the Statement—perhaps it is important to repeat it—one of the steps the Government are taking in the Home Office is investing a further £130 million in the technology around our borders to ensure that we meet the enhanced and ever-evolving threat that faces the United Kingdom.

[Lord Jopling (Con)]

My Lords, will the Minister explain why at some airports passports of people leaving this country are examined and recorded, whereas at others no check whatever is made? Is this because of a shortage of resources?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As my noble friend will know, it was this Government who reintroduced exit checks last year. He is right to point out that we introduced these checks in particular in larger ports. If there are specific airports he is concerned about I will be happy to discuss them with him afterwards and write to him accordingly.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, our coastline outside the major ports is highly vulnerable. Will the Minister confirm that, since we have sent coast guard cutters to the Mediterranean, and because of defects, we have only two coast guard cutters to look after our coastline from the Tyne round to Cornwall and that we have now cancelled the airborne surveillance programme, which indicated targets of interest, such as illegals coming into the country, to those cutters? If that is the case, we are in a very parlous state.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord will appreciate that I cannot go into the details of the operations of the Border Force and the cutters being deployed, but I assure him that there is sufficient capability and funding in place. Border Force maintains a presence in UK waters. We work in close partnership in ensuring secure borders with the Royal Navy and the National Crime Agency, among others.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, given that the recent pamphlet of government propaganda, which cost £9.2 million and went to every household in the land, claimed that we have kept control of our borders, will the noble Lord tell us whether we can prevent EU nationals entering the United Kingdom? How many have done so in the last five years, and how many do the Government anticipate will do so in the next five years?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister made clear when he announced the EU referendum that there would be a clear government position. There is, which is the belief that I know is shared by many across your Lordships’ House that the United Kingdom’s place is within the European Union. On the question of entry by EU nationals, while there are border controls in place in the United Kingdom, part of our agreement with the European Union is to ensure that, while EU nationals visit and work in this country, they, like all citizens, including United Kingdom citizens returning from abroad, go through diligent checks at passport control to ensure that we protect our borders from criminals and terrorists who may seek to permeate those borders.

[Lord Swinfen (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, it is this side I think—the noble Lord is not our side. Will the Minister tell us how many officers there are in the Border Force, how many will it fall to next year, and how that compares with the recommendation by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, in the report commissioned by David Cameron a few years ago that there should be 30,000 officers?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I will not go into specific numbers of officers, but as I have already said and say again to the noble Lord, through the creation of the Border Force we have ensured greater flexibility of all Border Force staff to ensure that, wherever the shortages are—as we found last summer when there were challenges from the situation in Calais—the challenges and needs are met by ensuring that there are sufficient staff in whatever port, be it maritime or airports.

[Lord Swinfen]

My Lords, the noble Lord has told us what is—or, rather, what is not—being done at sea to protect our borders. What is being done on land to intercept illegal entry via our beaches and unmanned airfields in various places in the country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I remind my noble friend that, as I have already said, the Border Force works very closely with all agencies, including the police and the National Crime Agency. This ensures that we have a robust approach, with joined-up thinking and sharing of intelligence. Of course, we work with our European partners to ensure that, where there are any concerns on access and illegal entry to the United Kingdom, be it by water or air, we meet that challenge robustly. The message must be clear that our borders are robust: we will prevent those who seek to enter illegally, including those who seek to spread terror in this country or elsewhere in Europe. Together, through sharing of intelligence, we are facing that challenge head-on.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has twice refused to answer a direct question this afternoon. He said that he cannot comment on matters of how the department works. He also said that he cannot tell us how many people are employed. Neither of those things can be state secrets. How many officers are in fact employed?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the issue that I said I could not reply to specifically was the issue of our coastal waters, their protection and the operational capacity there. I am sure that the noble Lord, when he reflects on that, will see that it is important that we retain the sanctity of ensuring our operational capability. After all, otherwise, we are opening that up to open transparency for anyone who is seeking to influence and get into the UK. We need to ensure that we meet the challenge of illegal immigration. The noble Lord asked for specific numbers. As I have said, the Statement which I have repeated on behalf of the Home Secretary acknowledged that there is a reduction in the resource budget of 0.4%. That will result in our ensuring that wherever shortages are met there is flexibility in the workforce. I do not think that I was avoiding the question; I just said that I am not going to get specifically into the numbers game.

Airports: London

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 18th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they plan to publish their decision for additional runway capacity at London’s airports.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, a number of important decisions on airport capacity were taken by the Government in December last year, including to accept the case for expansion in the south-east. However, as I have said before, we must take the time to get the location decision right. The Government are further considering what will maximise the potential local economic opportunities as well as the best possible measures to mitigate any environmental impacts. This work will conclude by summer 2016.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is one scenario being mooted in some quarters that does not involve the expansion of the London system? Remain wins the referendum and, because of the acquis communautaire, the setting up of a state of Europe is hastened, with Berlin as the de facto capital. Berlin would therefore attract aeroplanes from London, and it would deposit them on an airfield it has had for the last five years, which has not had a single aeroplane going through it, at Brandenburg. Problem solved, I hope the Minister may say: it would take the strain off Heathrow and give more business to the Germans. I am very interested to see how that grabs the Minister.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That might be the basis for a novel, and I suggest that my noble friend share it with our noble friend Lord Dobbs.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, when the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, asked a similar Question last month, the Minister said that the Government would conclude their further consideration of the environmental impacts of expanding airport capacity in the south-east by the summer, which the Minister later said was often defined as the time when noble Lords enjoy their Recess. Bearing in mind that the Government are in full control of the timetable for making and announcing their decision on this major, contentious issue, does the Minister agree that it would be an act of political cowardice for the Government to announce their decision on airport capacity when Parliament is not sitting or on the day Parliament rises for a recess?

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I said in my original reply, the work will conclude on the additional matters, including the environmental impacts, by summer 2016. I am not going to be more specific than that at this time.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, the future of the new runway is of course important, but what, in the mean time, will my noble friend do about the drones which are so much in the news recently?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend is quite right to raise the issue of drones. Indeed, there was an incident only yesterday at Heathrow, which has been fully investigated. The pilots have given their full reports, and the details have been reported by the media. Let me assure my noble friend that there already are stringent procedures regarding the use of drones, but the Government are also working very closely with international and domestic partners, including the CAA and BALPA. We are also working closely with our European partners—including leading on EASA’s work in this regard—as to what more can be done in what clearly is an area of expansion.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Airports Commission recommended establishing an independent aviation noise authority to participate in planning and monitoring airport expansion in the south-east. Can the Minister explain to us what steps the Government have taken towards establishing that authority and, if none have been, why not?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness is right to point out that one of the findings of the Davies commission was the importance of full community engagement, and that remains part and parcel of government thinking and is very much in the mix. However, the final call on that can be made only once we make the final call on the location of expansion in the south-east.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

I offer the Minister my belated congratulations on his birthday on 3 April and remind him that in the year he was born, I first expressed concern about the future of Heathrow unless we kept up with the management of airports in other countries. Will he do all he can to make sure that he gets the announcement made before the Summer Recess? If this goes on for as long as he has been alive, he will be 96 and I will be 125 when the decision is made.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure that all noble Lords will wish us both a long, healthy and happy life. The noble Lord is quite right—the Government have made their position clear; the decision is important. [Laughter.] Noble Lords may laugh, but the Government have made clear the principle that there is a need for expansion in the south-east, and we are progressing on that basis.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, 219 years ago today, the Spithead mutineers submitted a form to Earl Howe, whose relative sits here today, because they were appalled at a two-year delay in the Government taking action that they had promised. What does the noble Lord think they would make of the multi-year delay we have over this particular decision?

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

After consulting my noble friend, the current Earl Howe, I shall come back to the noble Lord on the history behind his question. The serious point behind this is the importance, as we all recognise, of ensuring the UK’s competitiveness, which requires expansion of capacity in the south-east, and we are progressing on that decision. As I said, the additional considerations will be concluded by the summer of this year.

[Lord Wright of Richmond (CB)]

The noble Lord has already received belated congratulations on his birthday. Would he join me in wishing the Lord Speaker a happy birthday?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Indeed, it gives me great pleasure to join the noble Lord in wishing the Lord Speaker, on behalf of the whole House, a very happy birthday. In doing so—I am not sure that I shall get the chance later this week—I wish Her Majesty the Queen a very happy 90th birthday.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

On the decision that may be taken in the summer on the third runway and Heathrow, is the Minister aware that, for more than a decade, air pollution around Heathrow has been way above acceptable levels and little has been done by any Government? Regardless of the decision, will any steps be taken to try to solve that problem and ease the poisoning that is taking place, particularly of children?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right to raise the issue of pollution. That is why the Government are taking full consideration of the Davies Commission’s powerful recommendations on mitigating those impacts, so that appropriate consideration is given to ensure that those impacts can be mitigated, whatever the final decision on south-east expansion.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

Does my noble friend recognise that there are concerns in all parts of this House that the announcement on the runway should not be made close to the recess? On a day when the Chancellor is discussing the economic benefits of staying in the EU, will my noble friend please acknowledge that every single day or week that this decision is delayed is a loss to this country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend makes two very important points. Of course, the Government are listening and hear these concerns. I assure him that the concerns reflected in this Chamber are very much given due consideration by other members of the Government, as well as myself.

High Speed Rail (London-West Midlands) Bill

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 14th April 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That the Bill be read a second time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, our railways are key to our country’s future prosperity and yet, if we look back in time, it is 123 years since we built a main line north of London and 183 years since Parliament approved the west coast main line. Although not intended to be a major artery, the west coast main line has evolved into one. Today it is the busiest mixed traffic railway in the world. Although it continues to serve the country well, it is almost full. We have already upgraded it and seen the benefits, but improvement to what exists, on its own, can no longer provide what the nation needs. Patchwork and sticking plasters will work for a period but are not the answer; it will not help us to create the capacity we need on the railways. It will not improve our country’s connections. It will not maximise the opportunities for our northern cities and cities in Scotland to grow and prosper. To allow our economy to grow and to compete on an international level, we need a step change in capacity. That is why this Government are committed to delivering High Speed 2, a project that will bring our economic centres closer together, allowing the whole country to benefit.

Now is really the time to do it. As I have said, the west coast main line is essentially full and yet more and more people want and need to use the railways. Over the past 20 years passenger journeys have doubled. Demand will continue to rise. Even on moderate forecasts, services will be increasingly full by the mid-2020s. The digital age may have created new ways to interact across distance and made the world smaller, but it has not replaced the need to travel—indeed, it fuels it. We need to deliver the capacity to meet this growing demand. HS2 will do exactly that.

From day one, phase 1 will not only provide additional capacity between London and the West Midlands but also to Manchester and Glasgow via through-running services. It will free up capacity on the west coast main line that can be used for local services or freight. That is only phase 1. HS2 will ultimately be a national network that will create even more capacity and even better links. It will connect our great northern towns and cities, including Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester, with services travelling on to Edinburgh and Glasgow. This is the capacity the country is crying out for. That is why we have brought forward phase 2A to Crewe, so that this can open three years’ earlier.

The full HS2 network will connect eight of the UK’s 10 most populous cities with direct links. The freed up capacity on the existing railway could help to provide improvements in regional connectivity. Combined, these provide a major uplift in the connections of our railways and the options for passengers, and help to rebalance our economy.

But, as the name suggests, High Speed 2 is not just about capacity. We will also see significant reductions in journey times, with phase 1 alone reducing trips between London and Birmingham and London and Manchester by around 35 minutes. These faster journeys will bring our country closer together. They will make travel easier and more efficient, and give businesses and workers access to new markets and options. These are just the transport benefits, but the true benefits of HS2 go well beyond them—the delivery of jobs, skills, development and economic growth.

As announced by the Secretary of State on 23 March, HS2 Ltd has started the procurement process for £11.8 billion-worth of civil engineering contracts. These contracts alone will create more than 14,000 jobs and we will ensure that people have the skills to take up these new opportunities through the HS2 skills college in Birmingham and Doncaster, which will open next year. These are jobs created to deliver the new railway, but the railway will also support wider development opportunities. Planning is already under way by cities and areas—such as through the Mayoral Development Corporation at Old Oak Common and the Birmingham Curzon master plan—to make the most of the opportunities that HS2 will bring. We will support them in their aspirations to make this scheme a success. This is the ultimate value of HS2.

While the benefits of HS2 are significant, this does not mean that I do not understand those who are concerned about the cost or worried that HS2 will divert investment from other transport. I understand those concerns and I wish to respond to them. HS2 will not come at the expense of the existing transport network. As noble Lords will know, we are investing more than £38 billion in the existing rail network between 2014 and 2019, including delivering Crossrail, Thameslink, new Intercity express trains and the electrification of the trans-Pennine, Great Western and Midland main lines. We are trebling the budget for major road schemes to £15 billion between 2015 and 2021, and we are investing £12 billion in local transport between 2015 and 2020. This is all in addition to HS2.

With regard to costs, we are committed to delivering value for money. Noble Lords will know that the November 2015 spending review confirmed a budget for the whole of HS2 of £55.7 billion at 2015 prices. The budget has not gone up, it has simply been updated in line with inflation. To put this in context, the cost of HS2 equates to around 0.14% of UK GDP in the spending review period. HS2 is a major commitment of public money, but it is an investment which Britain must make; we cannot afford not to.

Community and environmental impacts have also been raised, and I understand those who are concerned about HS2’s impact on the environment. It is not possible to build a railway without having some impacts on the environment and communities along the route, and it is clearly essential that we strike the right balance between delivering and operating the railway, and being sensitive to its surroundings. We believe we have struck the right balance. We have undertaken detailed environmental assessments to ensure that we understand and can mitigate the impacts of the railway. The environmental statement which accompanies the Bill is the largest ever undertaken in the United Kingdom.

But these assessments are not the end of our consideration of the environmental effects and impacts on communities. We have continued to listen to communities, environmental groups, statutory bodies and other stakeholders to try to reduce the impacts where reasonable. In addition, the Select Committee in the other place received more than 2,500 petitions against the Bill and additional provisions. Even with many deals made with those impacted and the withdrawal of others where we have provided assurances or clarified issues, the committee sat for 159 days to hear more than 1,500 petitioners and consider their issues. I wish to put on record the Government’s commendation for the dedication, commitment and fair approach undertaken by the members who served on the committee in the other place and those who worked tirelessly in representing their constituents in front of the committee. All their efforts in this area were exceptional.

Through this process and the continued development of the scheme’s design, we have made numerous changes that have led to even greater protections for communities and the environment. We have extended the bored tunnel under the Chilterns area of outstanding natural beauty by 2.6 kilometres, producing significant improvements for the village of South Heath, and we have removed impacts on Mantles Wood. We have lengthened the green tunnels at Wendover and Burton Green. We have lowered the line in Lichfield from viaduct to cutting, and moved it 200 metres to avoid the Trent and Mersey canal. We will deliver the new HS2 station at Euston in a phased approach to reduce disruption to the existing railway and help better manage impacts on the wider area.

This is but a sample of some of the changes we have made. The result of all of this work is a railway, more than half the route of which is in tunnel or cutting, and for which 75% of the line’s surface sections will be insulated by cuttings, landscaping and noise barriers. This is why we are not demolishing any grade 1 listed buildings; why no grade 1 excellent quality land is affected; and why the scheme has been designed to withstand a major flooding event, the likes of which we would expect only once every 1,000 years. I know there are those who want more—longer tunnels, deeper cuttings, taller noise barriers, and so on. However, we must remember that our duty to protect the environment must be balanced with our duty to protect public money. We believe our work to date has done just that and balanced these two responsibilities appropriately.

Turning to the content of the Bill, while the issues the railway raises are complex, the Bill is actually very straightforward. It is very similar in content and form to the Crossrail and Channel Tunnel Rail Link Bills, which were the last hybrid Bills to be considered by this House. The Bill provides all the powers needed to construct, maintain and operate phase 1 of HS2. It is essentially the planning permission for the railways, and therefore includes the power compulsorily to acquire land for the railway; undertake the works and nominate a person or organisation to do so; undertake modifications to existing legislative controls that are not designed for works that have already been approved by Parliament; provide a framework for the interaction of phase 1 with the classic railway network; and allow persons representing the Secretary of State to gain access to land for surveys relating to future HS2 stages. The Bill also allows the compulsory purchase of land for business relocation and regeneration purposes, so as to minimise business extinguishment and provide a backstop power to ensure that development opportunities created by HS2 are taken up.

Turning to procedures, should this Bill be given its Second Reading, it will move to a Select Committee process in this House. The role of this Select Committee is to hear petitions from those directly and specially affected by the Bill. The period during which petitions can be submitted began on 23 March and will end on 18 April. Noble Lords may want to understand the powers of the Select Committee. Its role is to hear petitions and make recommendations on what, if any, changes are required to address the issues they hear. The process of engagement between the promoter and petitioner means that in many cases, the petitioner’s issue is addressed and there is no need for them to appear before the Select Committee.

For those petitioners who do appear, the committee has wide powers and can, if it thinks fit, seek changes to the scheme that are within the scope of the existing Bill powers. For example, the committee can push for changes to the railway or use of land, within the limits of deviation set out in the Bill and within the environmental limits set out in the environmental statement. This could include changes to the railway itself or the mitigation provided as part of the scheme. The committee could also recommend changes to the way the promoter plans to construct the scheme—for example, how it plans to control noise or dust. It can also make recommendations on matters of compensation and property acquisition. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but it gives an idea of the importance and authority of the committee, and its scope to hear petitions and consider the facts.

HS2, as I am sure many in this House and beyond recognise, is greater than the sum of its parts. It is not just a railway with fast trains. It is not just about capacity and connectivity. It is truly about potential. It is about creating opportunities. It is about what is needed to produce a better and brighter future for our country, our economy and connectivity across the UK. This is what is required if we are to deliver a better, more integrated Britain. I beg to move.

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I join other Peers in thanking everyone for their most interesting, detailed and expert contributions to the debate. I will seek to answer all the questions that have been raised, but, in the interests of time, in respect of those that I am unable to cover, I will of course review them and write to noble Lords.

I acknowledge, first and foremost, the widespread support across the House for this important project. In his concluding remarks, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said that ultimately it is the Government’s responsibility and that the Government need to have vision and leadership. I assure him and all noble Lords that that is exactly what the Government believe. The project requires accountability and, ultimately, the Government remain accountable to your Lordships’ House and to the other place for ensuring that this project proceeds on track—excuse the pun.

I also acknowledge that this has evoked great passion and emotion in certain respects, both for and against the Bill’s provisions and progress on HS2. My noble friends Lady Pidding and Lord Framlingham, the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, among others, raised concerns about the environment, and I will come to them in a moment. It is understandable and right that they raised those concerns but, equally, it is promising to see such support for HS2 across the House.

I am indebted to my noble friends Lord Fowler and Lord Young for their strong support and also to others—I notice the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, has now taken up a different position in his capacity as Deputy Speaker, but I thank him for his support. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has an important role on the National Infrastructure Commission. I pay tribute to his work in securing the progress that we have made on HS2 and thank him for his expert—as ever—contribution today.

I am sure that other noble Lords will not mind me singling out the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Mair. I listened very carefully to his contribution and various people have been passing me notes about the current status of Big Ben. I am sure that the last time I looked, it was standing straight and erect as a great beacon of our democracy, our capital city and country. I think that we all acknowledge and greatly appreciate the efforts and expertise of the noble Lord in ensuring that that remains the case. I know that all noble Lords will have been encouraged by his contribution today. His knowledge of civil engineering and of underground construction will provide great insight into and scrutiny of this project, and his broader expertise will be of great value to your Lordships’ House going forward.

We have heard various contributions from noble Lords about how we are progressing on infrastructure. One thing I briefly share is that through projects such as HS2, the development of other catalyst issues, such as the HS2 college and—a few noble Lords alluded to the completion of Crossrail 1—the tunnelling academy that has emerged through Crossrail 1, demonstrates to me the expertise that we are developing in infrastructure, and transport infrastructure in particular. This was a point recently acknowledged by Ministers in Singapore who are currently embarking on a project with Malaysia to build the Kuala Lumpur-Singapore link. We are exploring how we can share common practices and expertise in these areas, and that is something that we should all be encouraged by.

The lack of engineers was also noted. The Government recognise this; indeed, I have a particular responsibility within the Department for Transport as a Skills Minister. In two years’ time, 2018 will be the year of the engineer, but there is much to be done across the board and we all share the responsibility for ensuring that we have the engineers not only to meet our challenges but, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said, to export our expertise in years to come.

I turn now to the questions that were raised. Various noble Lords raised the issue of the Select Committee process. The noble Lords, Lord Rosser, Lord Berkeley, Lord Stevenson and Lord Tunnicliffe, raised the issue of what the responsibilities of the Select Committee will be. It is important to note that the powers of the committee are not set by the Government; they are set by the conventions of the House. I was asked a specific question about the difference between the Houses. The convention is that the Commons Select Committee can hear additional provisions but the Lords committee does not. This is because the procedure follows that of an opposed Private Bill.

For your Lordships’ information, an additional provision is effectively a mini hybrid Bill; it is a change that requires additional land to be taken or changes to the Bill’s powers. The difference in powers is, I think, entirely in keeping with this House’s role as a revising Chamber. An additional provision—again, to remove any doubt and to provide greater clarity—is a change that leads, as I have said, to additional land being required and/or breaches of the environmental envelope for the project set out in the environmental statement. I trust that that provides the greater detail that noble Lords have requested on this, but if further details are requested of course I will be pleased to write in this respect.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked when we will outline our plans for HS2 in the Midlands and the north. As I mentioned, we have brought forward the planned opening of phase 2a by three years to 2027. In terms of phase 2 as a whole, the Government consulted on the proposed route between July 2013 and January 2014.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I understood that a resolution of the House could enable the committee to consider additional provisions. That is quite an important point. Would the Minister be so kind as to investigate that and share with us by letter the product of his investigations?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Of course. As I said, if there are additional questions, I will be pleased to write to noble Lords.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for her support. She said that the Liberal Democrat approach would be that of a critical friend to the Bill. It is right that in the revising nature of our Chamber we would hope that the discussions we have are always friendly, albeit a tad critical, but I understand the concerns that the noble Baroness has raised. She raised, rightly, connectivity with the rest of the network. As she will know, we are undertaking one of the largest programmes of investment in the railways. That is important. I have previously said from this Dispatch Box that the Government are investing £38 billion in the railways in the next five years.

The noble Lord, Lord Birt, raised the issue of investment generally over the next 15 or 20 years. I can certainly give him the detail that in the next five years the overall transport investment is in excess of £60 billion, in addition to the money we are spending on HS2. I hope that that underlines the Government’s commitment to the importance of transport infrastructure in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I checked with the Deputy Speaker to see whether I could come in after the completion of the Second Reading but he advised that I should interrupt now and ask my question. Therefore, I am following on from my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe. The description the Minister gave before he got to the alternative provision arrangements was that that was a matter for the House to determine, not the Government. I would be grateful if, when he writes to my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe, he could specify exactly where the precedent is that he is relying on for that. Presumably these words are not his but words of the House and the House authorities, and obviously we would like to check chapter and verse.

I might well wish to return to this later but it is my understanding that there are several precedents which suggest that what he read out was not correct; that previously in two major Bills—the Crossrail Bill and the Channel Tunnel Rail Link Bill—additional provisions were considered by the second House; and that on occasions, although intimations about the powers have been made, the general position appears to be that it is possible, as my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe suggested, that with an instruction the committee could consider and recommend an alternative provision. It is such an important point because the more the Minister narrows the position, the more difficult it will be for those who have suggestions to make to the Select Committee to be able to do so within the petitioning process as he has described it.

In addition, this does not seem to accord with what has been said to the public. He might wish to reflect on this when he replies. The clerks of the House have done a very good job in reaching out to those who wish to petition your Lordships’ House. There is a petitioning kit, which is a novel innovation, but it is certainly worth looking at because it is very informative. It says that,

“individuals, businesses and organisations specially and directly affected by a hybrid bill are given the opportunity to ‘petition’ either or both Houses of Parliament to seek to mitigate the effects of the bill on themselves, their business or their property”.

There is no qualification in that. That is a straight statement that mitigation can be provided. The kit explains what a petition is and says:

“A Select Committee … will be appointed to consider your petition and any other petitions deposited against the Bill … They have the power to amend the Bill, but not reject it”.

I do not understand how he can arrive at the position he has just articulated, given that and what has been said publicly. Without wishing to prolong the proceedings of the House, a lot of what has been said today has been about the confidence that people have in the House. We are in great danger of losing that.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Part of what I am seeking to do is to provide greater clarity but, in the interests of time and of ensuring that we get a comprehensive position, I will be writing to noble Lords to detail the position exactly. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, is satisfied with that. He is right to raise this important issue, as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, did, which requires—

[Lord Adonis]

If the Minister will forgive me, I am anxious to say this for the record because the record of this debate will now proceed. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, clearly declared an interest in these matters. It is very important that proper attention is paid to precedence and it would be deeply damaging to the public interest if issues which had been considered by the Commons committee, in the context of additional provisions, were then reopened in this House. That would not only be contrary to precedent but, as he rightly said, lead to a big issue about this House seeking in a fundamental way to second-guess critical strategic decisions on the nature of the project that have already been taken by the House of Commons. So, in the interests of balance and for the record of this debate, it is very important, regarding those who have a clear interest in this matter—the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has a very clear interest—that that is fully taken into account before any decisions are taken to breach established precedent in the consideration of hybrid Bills.

[Lord Birt]

Before the Minister moves on, the figures he quoted on investment are extremely welcome. I recognise that it may be difficult to respond to the question I asked earlier, but will he agree to provide an analysis of the investment not just in HS2 but in other forms of transport infrastructure as a share of GDP? Manifestly, the figures he quoted will be a very small percentage of GDP over the span of the project.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I will be pleased to provide that. As I said in my opening comments, the actual HS2 figure was 0.14% of GDP, but I will of course write on that. I thank my noble friend Lord Attlee for his intervention. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is right to point out the importance of conventions and the key role of this House as a revising Chamber. The best thing I can suggest is that it is right that we provide the detail requested. I say again that I will write to noble Lords to clarify any pending issue on this. Perhaps I may move on. I will add the caveat now that I added at the start: in the interests of time, I certainly will not get through all the questions put but, as this is such an important issue, I will write to noble Lords.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, raised the issue of rolling stock. I assure them that no decisions have yet been made on the form of rolling stock that will be run on HS2 but I will keep the House informed in this respect. The noble Lord also raised links between Euston and St Pancras. I refer him to the study that the Government published on this very subject on 30 November last year. It set out the plans for a pedestrian link between the two stations.

The noble Lords, Lord Bradshaw and Lord Berkeley, raised the issue of the Euston express. I respect their passion for this idea—a concept presented to the Commons Select Committee but rejected by it. The key issues raised by this proposal were its detrimental impact on existing rail services on the west coast main line, that it does not provide the same level of capacity and that it would extend the construction period by around two years and add further costs to the scheme.

The noble Lords also referred to the order in which the petitions will be taken. I am grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, spoke to the Motions in his main contribution. For completeness, if I may, the Committee of Selection will appoint noble Lords to the HS2 Select Committee. It is for that Select Committee itself to determine the order in which to hear petitions. Given the scale of the task before it, it is only right that the Select Committee has the opportunity to consider how it wants to organise its business. I do not think it appropriate for the House to dictate the order in which the Select Committee hears petitions. That said, although it is for the committee to determine such matters, we would propose that petitions relating to Camden, for example—something which came up a number of times—should be taken following the Summer Recess. My understanding is that the London Borough of Camden does not currently want to be heard until the issues it has raised have been fully discussed.

The second Motion relates to independent advice on railway issues. I come back to a point that has been raised about the role of the two Select Committees. It is important again to put on record that we must acknowledge the distinction between the role of a Select Committee for hybrid Bills and a departmental or topical Select Committee. The latter has a broad remit and carries out inquiries usually on its own initiative. It is therefore normal and accepted that it would request independent advice and opinion from experts. A hybrid Bill Select Committee has a different purpose and acts in a quasi-judicial capacity, hearing evidence from both petitioners and promoters to reach a decision on the information presented. It is the responsibility of both promoters and petitioners to present their evidence, including that of expert witnesses on the subject where they feel it necessary, in a way that is readily understandable to the committee. To grant the HS2 Select Committee the power to appoint independent experts for advice would go against this convention. It is an important principle that the committee, like a court, considers the evidence presented to it in public, in accordance with the rules of the House, and this should not change. I trust that provides further detail on the Government’s view on the two Motions that have been tabled and are in front of us today.

I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, and other noble Lords for their support of HS2. I have already talked about the importance of moving forward on this. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Coventry, among other noble Lords, raised issues around the environment. In particular, the right reverend Prelate raised the issue of burial grounds. I accept it is one of great sensitivity, and of course any human remains affected by phase 1 will be treated with dignity, respect and care. Two undertakings have been concluded in respect of the treatment of and approaches to human remains and monuments, which include a requirement to consult with the Archbishops’ Council. I of course fully understand and agree with the points on community and business engagement which the right reverend Prelate and others raised. We have undertaken extensive consultation and continue to do so through community events and direct contact where and when appropriate.

My noble friend Lord MacGregor brought some of his own personal magic to the debate. I assure him that HS2 is in discussions with the Stephenson Way Group and is aware of its issues, which I hope will be addressed without much further recourse. The noble Lords, Lord Prescott, Lord Lea and Lord Liddle, raised issues of northern devolution and connectivity. I will just summarise the Government’s position: investment is clear in the northern powerhouse, and we want to correct the historical underinvestment and imbalance which has occurred. That is why, as well as devolving power to the north, we are investing a further £13 billion in northern transport, including on improving road access to our ports in both Liverpool and the Humber.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and my noble friends Lord Framlingham and Lady Pidding all raised issues concerning the environment. In the interests of time, I will write specifically to them on that. Other noble Lords raised similar issues and I assure them that I will cover those in detail in a letter. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, talked about woodlands and was of course right to point out that once ancient woodlands are gone, they are irreplaceable. She talked of some innovative practices which are being undertaken. Those are certainly being encouraged further to reduce any impacts, and mitigation of environmental issues is being looked at extensively. Again, in the interests of time I will write to her to pick up on the outstanding questions.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lea, for his supportive comments. He responded to the noble Lord, Lord Rowe- Beddoe, about the Government’s response to the issues raised by the Lords Economic Affairs Committee. I remind noble Lords that the committee reported on 25 March last year, and the Government responded in July. Certainly every issue that the committee raised was taken point by point. After reviewing his comments, I shall write to him if I can provide any other detail. I assure all noble Lords that the cost of the full HS2 network, revised at 2015 costs, is £55.7 billion. As I said earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Birt, that is equivalent to 0.14% of GDP in 2016. We believe that our plans have the right balance in terms of journey times and delivering value for money, and a full HS2 Y network will deliver the benefit-cost ratio that we have set out.

The noble Viscount, Lord Simon, pointed to certain concerns he has about HS2, particularly about the benefits beyond London. Some 60% of the benefits of the full HS2 network are generated by trips that originate outside London and the south-east, and he will also be aware that many of the jobs created will relate to HS2 outside London and the south-east.

The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, raised issues about additional provision 3, as proposed by the promoter in the other place, which dealt with construction impacts in Camden and Euston station. Again, in the interests of time, I shall write to the noble Lord about that.

I once again thank all noble Lords for their contributions this afternoon to what has been an extensive and expert debate. It is important, as noble Lords have requested, that clarity is provided on the detail of the Select Committee. That is an important point for us all to consider. Equally, although there are some reservations that I take on board, the general sense within your Lordships’ House is of supporting a project that the Government believe is important in tackling capacity and other issues that our railways face, to ensure that they are brought into the 21st century. This project will create jobs, support growth and help to rebalance our economy. As many noble Lords have acknowledged, the Bill is not just about delivering a new runway—I mean, a new railway. That was a Freudian slip. That is what happens, four and a half hours in. I am reminded that I have a Question coming up on that very issue, and the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, may well contribute to it. Let me put it straight for the record—I mean a new railway. It is an investment towards a better future and now is the time to secure it.

On a final point, because it would be remiss of me not to, I would be delighted to take up the invitation of my noble friend Lord Fowler, who said that we could travel down to Wimbledon together. I shall be travelling up and then travelling down with him. I assure him that, given the challenges that people face, not just in Wimbledon but throughout our networks, whether they require disabled access or are young mothers with children, young fathers with children, or families with young children, as I have myself, it is important that we provide and facilitate access to our stations network.

I thank noble Lords once again for their extensive and expert contributions, and I commend the Bill to the House.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Select Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, before I decide whether to move this Motion, first I should say that I am very happy with the Minister’s answer to the first Motion. I think that it is perfectly reasonable that the Select Committee should be able to decide itself the order in which it considers evidence. However, could he clarify in respect of the second Motion, if the committee subsequently wanted to have a special adviser, whether it would need an instruction from the House or whether it could do it on its own initiative?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will agree with me, as I am mindful of the previous questions about the role of the Select Committee, that if I can cover that matter I shall include it in my response in writing. I trust that that will satisfy him for the time being.

[Lord Berkeley]

On the basis that I can always put this same Motion down another time, I shall not move it now.

Buses: Concessionary Fares

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 13th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan to introduce a standard system of concessionary fares for young people travelling by bus in England.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have no current plans to introduce a standard system of concessionary fares for young people travelling by bus in England. However, I take this opportunity to reiterate the Government’s continued commitment to protect the free bus pass.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, young people are twice as likely as the rest of us to rely on buses. They use them to access education and work. Some councils and bus companies provide concessions, but the situation is very patchy. Does the Minister agree that we should provide all young people with a standard entitlement to reduced fares, along the lines used in Wales as a result of Liberal Democrat influence? Given that concessions to older people have proved very popular, as the Minister will know, is it not time that we played fair by young people by giving them a similar scheme?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, I am fully aware of the scheme in Wales. For the record—I am sure the noble Baroness acknowledges this—it is both a Liberal Democrat and a Labour initiative in Wales. We are always magnanimous from the Dispatch Box.

Coming to the more central point, the noble Baroness is quite right to raise the issue of young people’s travel. I appreciate the challenges that she has put into context. Across England, there are about 89 concessionary travel programmes outside London, of which about 22 currently practise young people’s schemes. We look to ensure that good practice is shared; at the moment, as I said, no plans are being made for statutory provision across the country.

[Baroness Corston (Lab)]

The Select Committee on Social Mobility of your Lordships’ House, which I have the privilege to chair, reported last week on the transition from school to work. Evidence that we took from organisations, including Barnardo’s, was that young people who live in rural areas who would like to go to FE colleges or take up apprenticeships are prevented from doing so because of the cost of transport. Surely, young people like that, if the Government are truly honest in their apprenticeship levy, should be given the opportunity to get to training or study with some kind of concessionary scheme.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I will review the recommendations of the noble Baroness’s full report, which I have not yet done, and perhaps we can meet in that regard after I have done so. But she is quite right—I agree with her that we need to ensure concessionary schemes across the country that provide good open access to all those who require it. However, we also need to emphasise the point that local authorities carry responsibility in this regard.

[Lord Fowler (Con)]

My Lords, would not it be sensible to look at the whole free bus scheme again and try to make some distinction between those who can afford to pay a full fare and people—such as children—who, very often, cannot?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Affordability is an important issue to recognise. Of course, the definition is one area that sometimes causes confusion, because there are different definitions in different concessionary schemes of what constitutes a young person. I shall certainly take on board what my noble friend says. Anecdotally, for example, even across Europe, I was Spain recently, only to be confronted by a Spanish inspector who had no English—and I speak very little Spanish—who told me that my four year-old was required to pay an adult fare. Perhaps we need to look at these schemes in a wider context.

[Baroness Maddock (LD)]

Is the Minister aware that help with transport costs for young people is particularly important in rural areas, where the population is very sparsely spread? Is he aware that, if you are a young person in my home town of Berwick-upon-Tweed, it is 50 miles and two hours by bus to your nearest FE college, and 67 miles by train—which is even more expensive—to Newcastle? Is he also aware that, because of this, take-up of FE for training and skills continues to be below the national average in our area, and has been for a long time?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am aware now of the situation in the noble Baroness’s area, as she has highlighted it. As I have said, we look towards local authorities to see what can be done. While I accept that we live in challenging times in terms of their settlements, they nevertheless have a responsibility to provide for local people in their area.

On rail, there is of course the railcard, which is something that is sustained and available to many people, and is utilised. There are very good examples across the country of good concessionary schemes on buses within urban cities, which can perhaps be shared across rural areas as well.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

The Government’s own figures show that since 2010 the number of transport authorities providing a concessionary youth scheme has fallen from 29 to 22—a reflection, no doubt, of the financial hammering taken by local authorities under the coalition Government and continuing under this Government. In the light of the question asked by my noble friend Lady Corston, what assessment have the Government made of the impact of the differing provision, including non-provision, of concessionary fares for young people between transport authority areas, including the impact on their opportunities in further education and employment?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am not aware of a specific overall review that has been done, but the noble Lord is right to point out that the number of young persons’ schemes have dropped over the last few years. As I have said, we are looking through the various other changes that we are making in local government financing, including the recent announcements on issues such as business rates, to empower local authorities to prioritise what they believe are the correct schemes.

[Baroness Redfern (Con)]

My Lords, in agreeing with the Minister, I can say that North Lincolnshire provides a concessionary scheme for young people. We are a rural area and we know that it is very difficult to access FE colleges. No young person should be denied an opportunity to go further with their education. So although budgets are tight for local authorities, we provide that scheme.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The best answer I can give to my noble friend is that, again, that highlights responsible local authorities prioritising the schemes that they think should be prioritised.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, have the Government made any assessment of the cost to business in London of delays to buses and to people on those buses caused by the devastation of the road network caused by Mayor Boris Johnson?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Normally when the noble Lord rises to his feet it is a history lesson. However, he points to the challenges posed by construction taking place for the cycle lanes and by other construction in London. I will review this issue with TfL and write to him.

Severn Crossings: Tolls

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord German]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their intentions regarding the tolls on the Severn Crossings when the bridges return to public ownership.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have previously said that we would look at all options and consider the views of others before making any firm decisions. Our intention is to continue tolling after the projected end of the concession in 2018 to recover costs that have been incurred and fall outside the concession agreement.

[Lord German (LD)]

I am slightly disappointed by that Answer, especially as I was rather hoping that the Government might announce that they were going to abolish this tax on business in Wales and on entering Wales. Given that we do not pay a toll when we travel on the raised parts of the M5 and M6 around Birmingham, that the Thurrock-Dartford bridge is not a motorway but an A road and that the M6 toll road is an alternative route, can the Minister tell me any other structures, tunnels, bridges or roads on the motorway network for which a charge is made; or do the Government believe—as they seem to—that these motorway links into Wales should be the only through routes on our motorway network for which we must pay a toll?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, there are other areas of the United Kingdom where tolls are charged—through tunnels and on bridges from the Mersey to areas of Scotland, and around other areas of England as well. The important thing is that there is a concessionary scheme in place. As I have already said, we will look at this at the end of that concessionary period, towards the early part of 2018, and I assure the noble Lord that we are working very closely with the Welsh Government in this regard.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, the blunt truth is that Wales is at or near of the bottom of the indices of deprivation in this country. Surely if the Government were serious about tackling the deprivation in Wales this tax on Wales and the Welsh people should be abolished.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

This is not a tax on Wales. As the noble Lord is well aware, it goes towards the running and maintenance of the bridge. As I have already indicated, at the end of the concessionary period the Government will review their position to ensure that, as the noble Lord rightly points out, this is a gateway to Wales. My right honourable friend the Chancellor indicated at last year’s Budget that, at the end of the concessionary period, for example, VAT will no longer apply and vans helping small and medium-sized enterprises will be charged the same toll as cars. That is an indication of the Government’s belief in encouraging the gateway to Wales.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, Owens Logistics is a distribution business and a major employer in Llanelli. It spends £380,000 a year on tolls at £20 a time just for crossing the Severn Bridge. Can the Minister tell us what message this sends to similar businesses looking to do business in Wales?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I have just said—I am sure that the noble Baroness heard my previous answer—that the Government are looking to assist small and medium-sized enterprises in that regard. When the concessionary period comes to end, we will review the tolling procedure and will work hand in glove with the Welsh Government to ensure that an effective tolling regime applies on the bridge. However, I remind noble Lords that, even at the end of the concessionary period, £63 million will still be owing to the UK taxpayer, and it is therefore right that we look to ensure that we recover that cost.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that there is already a toll on the Mersey tunnel and that there is a proposal to charge on the second crossing to Runcorn. Can he set out the criteria for deciding whether something is charged for? The charging system seems somewhat confused.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I will write to the noble Lord on that scheme and provide details of what lies behind that decision.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, does the fact that the M6 toll road is so successful demonstrate that people are prepared to pay good money not to go to Birmingham?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure that that is just the noble Lord’s view; it is certainly not my view. Just to put this matter into perspective and to get back to the nature of the Question, people who choose to use the Severn Bridge crossing save, on average, up to 50 minutes on their journey time, so there is a cost benefit. There is also a time benefit for businesses and individual travellers to Wales.

[Lord German]

My Lords, just to be absolutely certain about what the Minister said in response to my first Question, is it definitely the Government’s intention to continue with the toll once the concession has ended and the cost of the bridge has been paid off?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I have already said, there is a cost to the bridge. As the noble Lord knows, a concessionary scheme is in place but at the end of the concessionary period money will still be owing to the UK taxpayer for the cost of the bridge, and that needs to be recovered. As I am sure the noble Lord is aware, we estimate that the toll will continue for two years, as there is a need to recoup the—on current forecasts—£63 million which is currently outstanding.

Road Traffic Act 1988 (Alcohol Limits) (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Friday 11th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, for bringing the Bill forward and for his subsequent amendments. I am sure he is aware that the Government take the threat of all dangerous drivers, including drink-drivers and drug-drivers, very seriously, and will continue to monitor all the elements that contribute to the number of deaths on our roads. I have previously set out what the Government are doing to reduce all road casualties in England and Wales, but I will re-emphasise the important steps we are taking that will help to tackle drink-driving specifically.

Drink-driving is still responsible for too many deaths and injuries. In order to prevent this, we will continue to take tough action against the small number of drivers who ignore the drink-drive limit. Many drivers killed in drink-drive collisions, or prosecuted for drinking and driving, are significantly over the drink-drive limit. The Government therefore believe that rigorous enforcement and serious penalties for drink-drivers, particularly these dangerous individuals, are a more effective deterrent than changing the drink-drive limit.

As I have previously said, the Deregulation Act 2015 made important changes to the drink-driving laws. First, it removed the so-called statutory option that allowed drivers who were slightly above the breath-alcohol limit to demand a blood or urine test. Secondly, it made it a requirement for high-risk offenders to undertake medical tests before they are allowed to drive again.

I note that we have just removed Clause 2, as the noble Lord proposed, which refers to Section 8(2) of the Road Traffic Act 1988, as it was removed by the Deregulation Act 2015. If the Government were in favour of the Bill, we would have agreed to the removal. However, I want to reiterate that the Government do not support the Bill. We believe that the legislative changes already made are very important steps that will help to reduce drink-drive casualties.

With regard to the lower drink-drive limit, we will, of course, remain interested to see the substantial evidence base from the changes made in Scotland, when it is available. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, and I have talked about this issue and I am sure he agrees that it is important that the Scottish Government carry out a full evaluation of its impact. It is also important to note that the penalties for drink-driving in England and Wales are more severe than in other countries, and despite the majority of these other countries having lower alcohol limits, they do not have a better record on reducing drink-drive casualties. The Government therefore maintain our position that lowering the limit in itself is not going to change people’s behaviour and would not be the best use of resources to improve safety on our roads at this time.

In thanking the noble Lord for his contribution, I reiterate that this remains a very key and important issue. I assure him that we will continue to support the police in their rigorous enforcement efforts against all dangerous drivers—for example, through the introduction of roadside evidential breath-testing instruments, which are expected next year. I hope the noble Lord is also assured that we continue to enforce strict drug-driving laws with our award-winning THINK! campaigns.

[Lord Rea (Lab)]

The noble Lord mentioned a similar measure that was introduced in Scotland about a year ago, the results of which the Government are observing. The Scottish licensed catering association has said that the introduction of that measure has been “catastrophic” for the industry. In other words, drinking as a whole has gone down—no one has mentioned that effect of the measure—quite apart from any effect on accidents on the roads. When the prohibition on smoking in public places came in, it reduced the prevalence of heart disease. Heart attacks, for instance, came down measurably as a result of that step. Therefore, small measures such as the one we are discussing will gradually reduce the consumption of alcohol, which, when used excessively, is very harmful, as we all know.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I agree that changes such as these have an impact. As he rightly pointed out, Scotland has introduced changes. We are talking regularly with our counterparts in the Scottish Government, but it is right that we await a more substantial evidence base for these changes. As I said, we are not contemplating any changes at this time.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, neither of the amendments today is contentious so they should not pose any difficulties for the Government, although I know that the purpose of the Bill does. I am grateful to the Minister for setting out again that the Government are endeavouring to limit the damage done to individuals by drunken drivers. However, I am sorry that they still maintain there is not sufficient cause for embracing this measure, which would, in my opinion, lead to further lives being saved, fewer accidents and fewer people being damaged than is the case at present.

I do not want to repeat all that I said on Second Reading. However, notwithstanding what the Government have done, the numbers of deaths, accidents and injuries have virtually plateaued since 2012. Notwithstanding the minor changes made recently, there does not seem to be any indication of significant change ahead, even though Scotland has shown that very big changes can be effected by moving down to the 50 milligrams limit. While the Government are still digging in, I hope that the many individuals, organisations and members of the public who have supported me—I express my public gratitude to them—and who are in favour of this measure will continue to put pressure on the Government to bring about a change which will be in the best interests of all concerned, other than, perhaps, the drinks and hospitality industry.

Driving Instructors (Registration) Bill

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Friday 11th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who taken part in our debate this afternoon and in doing so join other noble Lords in thanking my noble friend Lord Attlee for bringing forward this Bill. I thank him for laying out the particulars of the Bill so clearly and comprehensively. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, for their support behind the principles of this Bill, which the Government are pleased to support. I confirm that in my view the provisions of the Driving Instructors (Registration) Bill are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.

As my noble friend Lord Attlee has pointed out, it is unlawful for a person to carry out paid driving instruction unless they are an approved driving instructor and appropriately registered as such. That has been the case since the 1960s. Primarily, that is to protect road safety by ensuring that instructors are qualified to deliver a suitable level of instruction to learner drivers. Great Britain has some of the safest roads in the world—a position we should be justly proud of, but not complacent about. We therefore need to ensure that a robust system is in place to assure the qualification of driving instructors and maintenance of standards of instruction. That said, Great Britain is considered by many other countries to have a proportionate regime in place for the qualification of driving instructors. However, we must recognise that some of the legislation regarding the registration of instructors is out of date and due for a change. That is why we are here today—to make some minor, deregulatory changes to update that legislation and modernise the system for registering driving instructors.

I will come to the reasons for the changes very shortly, but first, let me assure noble Lords that standards of instruction will not be compromised. Updating the system to allow instructors to take a break from the profession and then to return via a simplified route will require a demonstration of competence as a driving instructor. I want to make that very clear.

The simplified route will still require a test to be passed and a check of driving instructors’ character and conduct to be taken, commonly known respectively as a standards check and a fit and proper check. The standards check will test their continued ability to deliver driving instruction and is the same check that practising instructors on the register must pass to renew their registration for a further four years. This route will be available only to instructors who have been away from the profession for between one and four years, so they will have been practising fairly recently and will not have lost their skills and knowledge.

The fit and proper check which is carried out when ADIs first qualify for entry on to the register and upon renewal of their registration is a check of criminal records which includes checking for road traffic and other offences which may be taken into account in determining their fitness to instruct. We must also be aware that the regulation of driving instructors is to protect young and vulnerable persons who may be isolated in a one-to-one situation with an adult. Many new drivers start lessons at the age of 17 and are considered to be children until they reach 18 years old. We have a duty to ensure that these persons are not put at risk.

A further protection is that this simplified route will not be open to those who have been removed from the register due to disciplinary reasons. Instructors who would have been removed from the register to protect public safety will have to apply for re-entry by undertaking the full three-part examination to demonstrate that they are fully competent. For this combination of reasons, I am reassured that the Bill will offer benefits to those who genuinely need them, but will not offer a loophole to others seeking to avoid having to demonstrate their competence as driving instructors.

This brings me specifically to the reasons for introducing the Bill. The current system in place for the registration of driving instructors does not take account of modern-day working practices which allow for flexible working conditions such as career breaks to start a family, to undertake caring commitments, developmental opportunities or to receive medical treatment. When the system was introduced in the 1960s, it was a very different time and many women who left work to raise a family found it difficult to return. It was also unknown, I think, to consider a break for developmental reasons such as to take further education courses. Moreover, back in the 1960s the recovery rate for people having undergone treatment for serious illnesses was considerably less than it is today, given the progress we have seen with modern medicines and therapies. It is for these reasons that the system and the legislation need to be updated.

The registrar, who is responsible for maintaining the register of approved driving instructors, received over 600 requests last year from ADIs to be voluntarily removed from the register as they were no longer practising for one reason or another. As we have heard from my noble friend Lord Attlee, the only way a person can leave the register is if their registration expires or they are removed for refusing the standards check, which is considered a disciplinary action and can affect their return. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also mentioned this point. That is greatly unfair. To return to the register under such circumstances means that currently they have to requalify by taking the three-part examination. Changes are needed to allow those who wish to leave the profession to do so without penalty and to return within a reasonable timeframe so as not to compromise standards, but without having to undergo another qualification.

Requests have been made to leave the register voluntarily to start a family, to care for a sick relative, to receive medical treatment for cancer or because of a heart attack, among other valid reasons. Many of these people have stopped practising their profession and are in no fit mind to undergo a standards check to continue with their registration, but take the standards check anyway to avoid having to requalify. These people should be able to leave the register voluntarily and then return if they so wish within the timeframe allowed under a more straightforward route.

Let us also not forget that driving instructors are in the main sole traders, so are defined as microbusinesses. The Government are committed to helping small businesses, and this is an opportunity to do so. It is for this reason that the Bill provides, as we have heard, for two deregulatory measures to simplify the registration of driving instructors. First, it allows them re-entry to the register under a simplified procedure if they apply within four years of leaving, and secondly, it allows an instructor to request voluntary removal from the register and to return at a later date under the simplified process.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the consultation. There was a full public consultation in 2013. Almost 90% of the responses received supported the two proposals in the Bill. The responses we received were mainly from ADIs and amounted to 1,679. There was a further consultation more recently, which took place with the main six ADI national associations, which also support the provisions.

I consider the Bill appropriate for the Government to support and once again thank my noble friend Lord Attlee for bringing it forward. I hope that he gets the support that he deserves.

Airports: Expansion

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Valentine]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether a final decision will be taken on airports expansion before the summer recess.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, a number of important decisions on airport capacity were taken by the Government in December, including the decision to expand airport capacity in the south-east. However, we must take the time to get the location decision right.

[Noble Lords]

Ha!

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

It is important. The Government are further considering the environmental impacts, which I am sure all noble Lords recognise, and the best possible measures to mitigate the impacts of expansion. This work will be concluded by the summer.

[Baroness Valentine (CB)]

As the Minister will be aware, various Governments have avoided taking a decision on where to put a runway in the south-east since the Second World War, so he is in good company in failing to be too precise about exactly when that decision might be taken. We are all aware of the gathering political storms which may yet blow the Government off course. If we eventually get a decision, given all the work that the Airports Commission has done over the past few years and the further work that the Government have been undertaking on specific issues, might the Minister be in a position to publish a draft national policy statement at the same time as the announcement?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness is quite right to mention the incredible amount of work that the Davies commission has done, which the Government have acknowledged; I have done so several times from the Dispatch Box. Of course—I say this just for clarification on the issue—we will be moving forward in summer 2016. The noble Baroness raised a point about the policy statement. Once the decision is made, there will be a consultation around the policy statement, as I am sure she is aware, and once a development order is laid there are quite specific timelines that will be followed in line with the Planning Act 2008.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

Is the Minister aware that the runway would be built by now if the Government had accepted the recommendation of the last Labour Government? Is he also aware that if you go to any aviation conference in this country or overseas there is utter amazement that we cannot make a decision on such a key infrastructure project?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

It was really for the Labour Government to act on the Labour Government’s own policy. The Conservative Government are very clear. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister, David Cameron, launched the Davies commission. It has reported. We have accepted the principles behind the report. We have accepted the work done behind the report. The noble Lord mentioned conferences around the world. In my capacity as Minister for Aviation Security, I attend such conferences, and I find utmost respect for British aviation and the Government’s considered position on this issue.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords, as far as the position of the Labour and Conservative Governments are concerned, will my noble friend note that in 1974 the Conservative Government had all the legislation, planning permission and so on for an airport at Maplin, and Labour came in and dropped it on the grounds that the forecast had been exaggerated? If it had not done so, we would have had an airport at Maplin for many years.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend makes a very valid point. This Government have been very clear that we have accepted the principle of expansion in the south-east, and we are committed to that. In summer this year we will report back on the important environmental considerations, which must be considered as part of this important decision.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

Is the Minister aware that 69% of pre-orders for new planes are for so-called hub-busting models? In the light of this, does he still think that Britain needs a new hub airport, or is the hub model rapidly becoming yesterday’s plan?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Not only does Britain need a hub airport, Britain has hub airports and they play an important part in aviation capacity around the world. In terms of orders for planes, it is really for airlines themselves to decide on a commercial basis what type of aircraft they require.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My question is on the same theme as that of the noble Lord, Lord Higgins. Will the Minister assure the House that, if perchance the referendum says no, the Government will still make the decision to press ahead with expansion in the south-east and Heathrow?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

We should not convolute the issues here. In terms of the referendum specifically, it was the previous Government under our current Prime Minister who gave the commitment that the people of this country would decide, and they will decide on 23 June.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister has not said clearly whether the Government will make a decision by the Summer Recess. He may know that the CBI has estimated that Britain will lose £31 billion in trade by 2030 with the BRIC countries if our airport capacity is not expanded. I ask him to be clearer and confirm that the Government will make a decision, on whichever option—we will never find an option that keeps everyone happy. The Government must now confirm that they are going to decide by the Summer Recess.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The Government have been very clear that the reasons why we are taking further consideration are the issues of environmental mitigation, which the Davies commission mentioned, and community engagement and noise and air pollution, which we are considering very carefully. It is right that we are taking the time to consider the decision. We will conclude those further considerations by the summer. The Government are acutely aware of the point my noble friend makes about the £31 billion loss and of the need to progress on this decision.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, we all enjoy the Minister scurrying around in the long grass on this issue, but could he give a clear definition on behalf of the Government of what period “summer” covers?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Some would define it by when the sun shines, but I am certainly not going to say that. I think we are quite clear when we talk about the summer period: often it is when noble Lords enjoy their Recess.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Broers (CB)]

My Lords, on a slightly different angle, I understand that Heathrow has increased its capacity by spacing aircraft by time, not by distance. Is this practice being extended to Gatwick and Stansted?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I will write to the noble Lord on the issue of Gatwick and Stansted, but he is right to point out that existing capacity has been increased. Again, that is down to the world-beating talent and expertise that we have at NATS. Other Governments—indeed, recently I had discussions with the Government of Singapore in this respect—are also looking at deploying the expertise of NATS.

Railways: Southern, Southeastern and Thameslink Franchises

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the performance of the Southern, Southeastern and Thameslink rail franchises, and what steps they intend to take to ensure that passengers on those routes receive an improved service.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, customers on these parts of the rail network need to see improved services. There are problems that are being fixed. However, Govia Thameslink Railway—GTR—Southeastern and Network Rail still have to do much better when it comes to fixing faults and communicating with their passengers. The Government are determined to reduce crowding and improve the passenger experience, which is why we are investing in the multibillion-pound Thameslink programme that is due to complete in 2018.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I am glad the Minister agrees that customers are not getting the service they deserve. Thameslink and Southeastern have commuter satisfaction down at 68% and Southern at 70%. The disruption at London Bridge has not helped but it is only part of the problem. As the Minister says, the operators need to do better. Do the Government intend to terminate franchises early if there is no significant improvement in performance? Does the Minister agree that punctuality and reliability are more likely to improve if train companies are penalised financially and automatically required to compensate all affected passengers, based on a more generous compensation scheme?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I acknowledge the challenges and issues that have arisen, particularly with these two franchises. I assure the noble Baroness that the Government are determined to hold those operating the franchises to account. That is why my honourable friend in the other place, the Minister for Rail, Claire Perry, meets the operators, together with the ORR, on a monthly basis to ensure that the requirements of the franchise are being met.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, my friends in Elstree and Borehamwood are never happy when I am on the Thameslink platform because, when I am there, there is always a delay or cancellation. Will the Minister support the action of the MP for Hertsmere, Oliver Dowden, in his campaign to get Thameslink to provide a much better service for the people of Hertsmere, who pay a lot of money to be packed like sardines in an often-late train?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure my noble friend that the delays are not down to his presence on the platform, as he brings to our attention the delays that we are seeing on these lines. As I have already said, the Government are committed both to holding those operating these franchises to account and to ensuring that, yes, there is greater investment. That is why the Government have committed to the investment of more than £1 billion in the improvements at London Bridge and beyond, and we are committed to ensure that by 2018 these improvements are felt by commuters. He is quite right to point out that the current service is not good enough.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

As one of those weekly commuters from Bognor Regis to Westminster, I also have my tale to tell. I only just made it in on time on Monday, having sat on three separate trains before one left the station, and along with other commuters was shunted from one platform to another three times just to get on a train that worked. Go-Ahead, the parent company that owns the franchise, reported an increase in profits of more than 30% last year. Can the Minister tell us why this money is not being invested to improve services for passengers but instead is going into shareholders’ pockets?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Investment is going into these franchises. There are three new fleets of electric trains, which will see an overall increase of 50% in capacity. Within the wider franchise, new trains will be introduced on the Gatwick Express later this year. But the noble Baroness is quite right to point out that the challenges remain. As I have already assured the House, the Government are working very closely not just with those who are operating these franchises but the Office of Rail Regulation to ensure that the challenges are met and the franchisees are held accountable.

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords, would the Government give some consideration to a restoration in the longer term of the vertical link so that “Notwork” Rail and the rail operating companies have one board of directors coming together to solve the problems, instead of blaming each other?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I note the reference that my noble friend made—I am sure he meant Network Rail. As noble Lords will be aware, we have appointed Sir Peter Hendy to look at Network Rail’s operations and we are working closely together, as many delays on these lines—my noble friend is quite right to point out—are because of Network Rail-related issues and are not down to the franchisee.

[Lord Wills (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to hear the Minister being so tough about these things. Two weeks ago, my wife was on a Southeastern train to Ramsgate. When the train stopped, the doors opened, a woman tried to get out and the doors shut on her. She managed to extricate herself and the train took off—all within about 30 seconds—lugging my wife and 13 other people to Broadstairs, where there was no one to help them or advise them on how to get back to Ramsgate.

The concern that Go-Ahead, the parent company of Southeastern, has for the health and safety and convenience of its passengers can perhaps be demonstrated by the fact that I have rung it three times and have, so far, received absolutely no response. From what we have heard already today, this is not an isolated occurrence of its insouciance towards its passengers. Will the Minister agree to meet me and any other noble Lords with concerns about this company to discuss what can be done to improve its performance?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

It is always my pleasure to meet noble Lords.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I will add my name to that list. Southern is absolutely dedicated to reducing service to customers in all possible ways. Its first action when it took up the franchise was to abolish tea trolleys; its latest action is to abolish ticket offices, even though the ticket machines will not offer the best price and are extremely hard to use. Will the Government please take this franchise to task and either abolish it or make it better?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure my noble friend that we are of course holding those operating the franchises to task, as I have already said in your Lordships’ House. If they do not deliver, they will be held to account. We are going to see the completion of the investment by the end of 2018 and I think that that will be the real challenge and test of how efficient these franchises are.

Railways: New Lines

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 29th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to encourage new or reopened rail lines to be cost-effective.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are taking many steps to ensure that all rail enhancement projects, including those working towards opening or reopening rail lines, follow government appraisal guidelines and create business cases which test options ensuring best value for the taxpayer. Local authorities and private sector beneficiaries are encouraged to contribute to the overall costs of the preparation and delivery of such projects to decrease the burden on the public purse.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer but does he agree that part of the problem is the very high costs that come out of some of these calculations which indicate that there is not really good value for money? Does he not agree that the answer is actually to have a set of standards appropriate to branch lines or lower-speed and cheaper track, and to cheaper trains—possibly not even signalling, more like a bus—which would be very good for local services but of course totally inappropriate for a main line? Will he encourage the development of some standards that might reduce such costs?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I am sure the noble Lord is aware, the concept of community rail partnerships sets down specific guidelines as to what qualifies as a community railway. Currently about 40 routes do so in that regard. As for his point about trains looking like buses, I am reminded that we are decommissioning Pacers in certain parts of the country.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that when the Cotswold line was nationalised, it was a virtual basket case? It was always under threat of being closed. Since privatisation, it has now become a victim of its own success and people are actually standing between the carriages, let alone within the carriages. Will he therefore do everything he can to encourage private companies to invest private capital in this railway line, as well as others?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend is quite right. We have seen very encouraging signs from opening up the rail market to the private sector. Underlining that, the Government are also committed to ensuring that they play their full part, and that is why they have committed to a further £38 billion of investment in the rail network over the next five years.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, there has been a vigorous campaign to reinstate the rail link between Uckfield and Lewes, which would provide better access to employment in Brighton from the Weald and an additional, badly needed route between the Sussex coast and London. The coalition funded some studies into this but the current Government have not given any firm commitment. Can the Minister tell us whether the Government have plans for action on this and does he accept that the regeneration is needed now, not some time in the future, as indicated, possibly 2030 and beyond?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The Government are committed to ensuring the regeneration of all railways. I will write to the noble Baroness on the details of that particular line. I reiterate that we are looking at ensuring that there is effective and resilient investment in our railways to ensure that they meet the needs of the 21st century.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister is absolutely right to draw attention to the success of the community rail partnerships. They have contributed to growth well above the growth on regional railways generally and have attracted some 3,200 volunteers to help improve stations and to work generally on the railway alongside full-time railway staff. This is a great success story and it is important that the Northern Rail franchise embraces that. But does the Minister not agree that for that strategy to succeed, it will be necessary for Network Rail to look realistically at cost levels and get them down where it can, because those have been a bar to opening lines until now? I declare an interest as chairman of the Great Western Railway advisory board and, indeed, the author of a book which deals extensively with this subject.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure noble Lords will be lining up outside the Chamber for a signed copy. Of course the noble Lord is quite right to point out the need to ensure best value and efficiency on our railways. That is why, as the noble Lord will know, the Secretary of State has appointed Sir Peter Hendy to look at the delivery of the investment in the railways across the board.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, further to my noble friend’s question, will the Minister consider that when an existing franchise falls due for renewal, bidders are invited to look at reopening some of the disused railway lines when they put in their tenders?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend is correct and that is why the Government are ensuring that that provision is part and parcel of all new franchise proposals.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Is it the case that Dr Beeching wielded his axe too well and too many lines were closed 50 years ago?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

History is history and this Government are looking to the future and that is why we are committed to the investment we are making in the railways.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I want to pursue the points made by my noble friends Lord Berkeley and Lord Faulkner of Worcester. The Minister keeps referring to surveys on value and efficiency but in looking at low-cost community rail opportunities, what work have the Government actually done on reopening closed lines on the basis of them being light rail systems, rather than their reopening being costed on an assumption that there will be a much heavier axle load and a complete rebuild of substructure and bridges, which in a great many cases immediately drives up the cost to unaffordable levels? If such work has been done on operating new or reopened community rail partnership lines more like a light rail system than a railway as we normally know it, by how much has it shown that the cost of reopening and operating closed lines or building new lines serving local communities can be reduced?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I have already indicated, when it comes to any railways, the new franchises will ensure that community rail is part and parcel of them. The noble Lord talked about surveys but they are not surveys. I have referred to a report and to Sir Peter Hendy. As the noble Lord is fully aware, Sir Peter is carrying out a quite stringent review of all aspects of Network Rail spending to ensure best value for money and best value for the taxpayer.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

The Minister said in response to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, that history is history, but should we not be learning at least one lesson of history? The period of the Beeching closures resulted in widespread destruction of priceless railway infrastructure in many areas which have since seen growths in population that would have benefited from the railways still existing. Should not one clear lesson be that, should lines be closed or mothballed in the future, at the very least the track bed should be protected so that should reinstatement be necessary it would be easy to do so? I should also declare an interest as the honorary president of the Telford Steam Railway.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am again in awe of the great historical perspective and wisdom within your Lordships’ House, and of course I take the noble Lord’s comments on board.