Dormant Assets (Distribution of Money) (England) Order 2023

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Lord Addington

Tuesday 24th October 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, when I looked at this, I thought I had one or two clever questions, but they have both been asked. It is one of those SIs which is basically a good idea but there are a series of “Yes, but what if it happens?” questions. The final point made by the noble Lord, Lord Young, that if you insure against this then maybe you could get the money out there and would be covered anyway might be an answer. I certainly had not thought of it, but it deals with the problem of getting the money, which is designed for a good cause and which you are holding, out there and letting it do the work.

I appreciate that we should hear about how everyone who is paid from this is using the money, benefiting from it and reporting back. Can the Minister say something about that? I declare a small interest as a trustee of the Atlas Foundation, which does this on a very small scale from privately arranged funds. Reporting back is very important to what we do because we have to know what has happened, usually in youth projects based around rugby football abroad. We have reports back so that we can see what is going on. The Government should let us know how this is happening.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, made a point about additionality and the National Lottery. I wonder how many times that has been breached and whether it has now become the National Lottery’s normal activity to cover certain activities. It has been a great success and done positive things, but has it let the Government off the hook? I do not know. If we want a pointless activity, let us go through that and put the balancing scales up. My attitude is that we do not need to, as long as it gets done and we do not try to overload it.

How it is administered seems to be the major cause of concern. I do not know whether we are holding too much money back—whether for 15 or 20 years—and then giving the whole thing away. Are the Government or the Opposition thinking about whether they will challenge this in future? What is the Government’s long-term thinking on this? Helping good causes, most of which do well, and making sure you find out which ones do not is basically a win-win. It has been a successful scheme, so what are the Government doing to make sure that this momentum is maintained and that we continue to have good results? That is the only thing that could cause any controversy. It is a question of how they are monitoring it and making sure that it is doing this properly. There is also the principle of additionality. Is it doing something that other bits of legislation say are government activity, either local or national? With those caveats, which sound rather miserable as I look back at them, this should probably be supported.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, like everybody else, I am grateful to the Minister for the way in which he introduced this. It is a short SI. That has not stopped noble Lords this afternoon asking a plenitude of questions, but all of them are highly relevant. Many of them are repeats from when we discussed the Bill back in 2021-22, but they are nevertheless highly relevant today.

This is of huge importance to community organisations and individuals who will benefit from the funding. I thought that the testimony of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, was very good on that point because she gave very good examples of the benefits of using the funds in the way in which they are used. I am sure that the Minister will fondly remember his many hours taking the Bill through the House; I have a feeling that it was his first Committee, and he did it very well and with tact and skill.

During the passage of the Bill, we had a lot of discussion about the potential inclusion of community wealth funds as beneficiaries of the dormant asset moneys. In the best tradition of the Lords, there was cross-party support, including in particular from the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, the now-retired Bishop of Newcastle, and, speaking on her behalf, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ely. That collaboration gave rise, as I recall, to an amendment that many of us signed, which led to a shift in the position of the Government. It was initially resisted by the Minister, who stressed that

“current evidence for community wealth funds, as well as concrete designs for how they would operate, are relatively sparse”.

He did, however, go on to say that

“there is more work to be done in this area before a commitment can firmly be made”. [Official Report, 16/11/21; col. 177.]

In a refreshing break from tradition, the Government have followed through with their promise. I congratulate them on that, because it is a very important and significant one.

Based on the outcomes of their consultation, which saw 71% of respondents agree or strongly agree that community wealth funds should be included as a cause for dormant assets, they have rightly included them on the list in this instrument. This is, without doubt, a very exciting time for those involved in the creation and scaling up of community wealth funds. However, the Minister will know that some in the sector are concerned by the direction indicated in the recent technical consultation document published jointly by DCMS and DLUHC. We understand the need to build the evidence base for community wealth funds. Limiting their work to smaller towns of fewer than 20,000 people appears counterintuitive to us—I will not say counterproductive. Some of the most deprived areas across our country have populations larger than 20,000, yet for a variety of reasons they lack the type of social infrastructure that these funds could provide. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, gave a very good case example of where that sort of community capacity can be missing.

Yes, we need to build the evidence base for community wealth funds over time, but I hope the department will consider whether this rather arbitrary threshold is wise. If the pilots are run in the wrong areas or to the wrong criteria, we may never see an accurate picture of the role these funds can play in improving communities and people’s lives and livelihoods. Will the department reflect further on this? This design principle is not even subject to consultation, and I think that needs to be given some urgent thought. At the least, we would like to see the Minister prepared to welcome views on the point and the issue.

While we are glad that community wealth funds have been named as a cause, we are equally pleased to see the existing three causes keep their place in the list. Dormant assets have funded a variety of important services for young people and those with debt or financial inclusion issues, which the Minister referenced. It is vital that their work is able to continue, particularly at a time where our economy continues to struggle and inflation remains a problem for people up and down the country. The Minister will be familiar with the work of organisations such as Big Society Capital, Local Trust and so on, that fall under the third category on the list. As I am sure the Minister is well aware, Big Society Capital has come up with a community enterprise growth plan, which aims to put dormant asset funds to even better use by leveraging additional private capital and multiply the impact that the initial investment generates. While I understand that the Minister will not be able to announce individual allocations today, will he commit to looking closely at least at that plan?

Some questions will remain over elements of the Government’s approach, but we are generally pleased to support this SI. As I have already noted, there is cross-party support for the scheme, and we should harness that energy. At the same time, there are legitimate concerns over particular aspects of the policy. Ministers like to talk about levelling up but, despite the fantastic work of social enterprises across the country, it is not clear that we are yet seeing it on the ground. With that in mind, I hope the Minster can commit to further discussions in the months to come.

For me, the dormant assets scheme is an original great Labour success story. It started in 2008 and was authored by Gordon Brown. The current Government have taken it a stage further and broadened the range of options for paying into that fund. It has put millions of pounds to good use around the country. We are happy to support the expansion of the asset categories through the 2022 Act. Once the finer details have been ironed out, we hope that even more will soon go to good causes.

A number of questions that colleagues asked were particularly important, such as on additionality. Ensuring the restoration of money to the right place is important. The size of the reserve fund seems questionable. We must ensure that we get the right distribution of funds and that they deliver additionality, rather than just paying for things that would otherwise be paid for by government programmes through local government.

This has been an impressive and useful debate. I hope this is an issue that we can keep at the forefront of the House’s consideration. Perhaps we could return to the point about monitoring and analysing the impact at some stage in some form or other. It might be the sort of thing that could be the subject of a Lords’ report, because this is an exciting opportunity. It is all about building capacity, providing opportunities and getting funds to communities that most require them.

Football Governance White Paper

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Lord Addington

Thursday 23rd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I join with the Minister in paying tribute to the legacy of John Motson—Motty—who has sadly passed. It would be remiss of me if I did not mention that he was not necessarily a fan of my own club, Brighton and Hove Albion, but his father was a season-ticket holder, and he is remembered at the Amex with great affection because he commentated on the first Premiership goal we scored back in 2017-18 season. What a fine goal it was too, from Pascal Gross. We shall all miss John Motson, a man of fair but trenchant views who fairly commented on the game.

It is nice on this occasion to be able to say to the noble Lord opposite that for once he is playing the role of an attacking centre forward rather than a defending centre back. While this process has been beset by delays, we have to congratulate the Government and the noble Lord’s department on finally delivering this important and vital White Paper.

The need to reform the beautiful game has been clear for many years. Indeed, the Labour Party has been committed to giving fans a stronger voice for more than a decade. We are glad that the Government have finally caught up and that, following numerous delays, we are finally seeing some of the detail from the process promised way back in 2019.

The English game and English football are the envy of the world. Our most famous clubs have a staggering reach across all four corners of the globe. However, our love for the game is about more than action on the pitch. For many, as the noble Lord said, football is a way of life, not merely a way to pass a chilly Tuesday evening or a sunny Saturday afternoon.

As I have said on many occasions, football clubs are at the heart of communities up and down and across the country. We have seen many become important social and community hubs, with players undertaking important charitable work and visiting local hospitals, coaches running holiday programmes at schools and in parks, and fans’ groups starting or supporting food banks and other initiatives to support local people. No doubt noble Lords will all recall the role that some players’ generosity played in great spirit during the Covid epidemic. This is solidarity in action; clubs do much in support of that work and we commend them for what they do.

When a club is passed into the wrong hands or, worse, fails completely, there are significant implications. The Statement cited a number of examples—Bury, Macclesfield, Derby, Rushden & Diamonds, Wimbledon and Cardiff—but many more face difficulties, including Southend United. The repercussions of bad ownership reach far beyond the heartbreak felt by supporters, valid as that is. The collapse of a club can send shock waves across entire communities, changing an identity that has often existed for well over a century. There are practical considerations too. A club going into administration means a direct, and often significant, hit to local suppliers’ bank balances. This is why we welcome the proposals in today’s White Paper and why I once again congratulate Tracey Crouch on her excellent work on the fan-led review.

Labour has no hesitation in immediately supporting the recommendations of the Crouch review. We are glad that the Government also accepted them, in principle at least. However, given the urgency of the issues, we do not see why it has taken the department so long to get to this stage. We were promised swift, comprehensive legislation to prevent any more clubs falling into difficulties. Instead, we have this White Paper and yet more consultation. I am all in favour of consultation, but we have had a good year or so of it so far. Do we need yet longer? When does the Minister expect to be able to bring a Bill forward? Will it be in the next King’s Speech or can we expect it somewhat sooner than that?

We especially support the creation of a fully independent regulator of English football, although we will need to see the detail—and soon. The regulator must have the powers and, if necessary, the teeth it needs to make the game more sustainable. Powers to block English clubs joining breakaway competitions, such as the European super league, are welcome, but this cannot be the full story. Issues such as financial redistribution remain subject to negotiation between the Premier League and the English Football League, and we have not yet seen meaningful progress on those talks. One other question occurred to me, which is: how does the regulator aim to operate in regulating the women’s game, because those leagues are becoming increasingly significant? Does the Minister believe there will be a breakthrough in the foreseeable future in looking at redistribution? We hope a deal can be done, but if the two bodies cannot agree, what role will the regulator play and have in facilitating, or even imposing, a new, more equitable system?

We are told that the owners and directors test will be strengthened, but yet again we need to see the detail. The sale of Newcastle raised a lot of questions at the time, not least whether the Saudi owners would use the club as a means of sportswashing. Within months, a third shirt was released with a striking and stronger-than-passing resemblance to the Saudi Arabia national kit. If the Government had implemented their proposals sooner, some of this could have been prevented, and with Man U on the market there is no doubt that some of these issues will arise again.

To conclude, we welcome this important, if not largely symbolic, step, but, instead of more conversations about reform, what the national game really needs is the clear, concerted action that was set out in the Crouch report. I hope that the Minister can convince us today that that is going to be forthcoming sooner rather than later.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, looking through the review and the response, it is good, but it is not everything we hoped for. It is okay. To make it better would mean taking on a much more comprehensive attitude. The nub of this issue is redistribution. That is what everybody is talking about. We have a regulator that will step in if the other people cannot sort it out. That may not be strong enough. It almost certainly will not be, because people do not like giving up money. You can always find a use for money, justifying paying it to shareholders and players, you name it—but this is something where we will step in if we have to, and we almost certainly will.

The problems of professional sport are writ large behind this—let us face it, the problems around the redistribution of grounds and dodgy owners predate the Premier League. Before it was brought in, various organisations raised those problems with me. It is not a new problem; there is simply more money around now and a way of dealing with it more easily, if we intervene.

If we are intervening, what do we expect of these professional clubs? The state has intervened to make sure that they are sustainable, so will we at least impose best-practice models for other things that they do? Will we say to a Premier League club, or to one in the EFL, that they have a duty to support the grass-roots game? That does not seem to be included. If we have intervened to make their lives easier and to allow them to continue to function, we should be doing something to say that they have a responsibility. That is a fairly reasonable thing to do if we use the power of the state to make their positions sustainable. For example, clubs talk about themselves as community hubs; let us make sure these hubs actually do something.

There are many more comments in the White Paper about things such as the contracts for youth development. In the brief conversations I have had with some of these organisations, they say that they do lots of stuff because they run lots of youth teams. They might run lots of youth teams, but it is to spot talent, and then they dump the others when they do not make it. Think about the psychological damage potentially done there. How could that be done correctly?

When it comes to the game as a whole, these children grow up. How are we encouraging them to carry on playing and being involved in sport beyond this? We will miss a huge opportunity if we merely concentrate on people watching the game and do not say that, first and foremost, it is about playing. Those people in a position of privilege should be taking on some of that responsibility.

Other sports have had their problems—rugby league historically, and rugby union right now—with professional structures, games and money and so on. Will the Government consider this as a model for professional sport generally and the messages coming through? That is something we should be hearing about.

For far too long we have sat back and said that although we have a very old structure—in many of these sports the oldest—it is coping fairly well and most of the time runs without us, so just let them get on with it. Football has proven that we cannot realistically do that. The Government have taken the first step to involving themselves more fully. I hope they have a more coherent plan that goes a little wider than just football—big and important as it is.

Sport Sector: Financial Support

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Lord Addington

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating last week’s Statement. Normally, it is undesirable to have such a gap between the debates in both Houses, but, in this case, it allows us to consider recent developments.

Labour welcomes the additional financial support for the sport sector, and I repeat the thanks expressed by my colleague, Alison McGovern, for the hard-working Treasury and DCMS, who have had to deal with complex financial returns at speed. It is regrettable, and I do not like to sound curmudgeonly here, but Ministers chose that process at such a late stage. However, these funds will nevertheless provide a lifeline for the range of sports that receive them, and for that reason they are very welcome.

Last week, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State reiterated his desire for this money to be going out in weeks and certainly for some of it to be disbursed before Christmas. Is the noble Baroness able to provide any updates on the planned timescales, particularly in the light of today’s wider economic announcements? Can she express in percentage terms what amount she expects to arrive at with organisations before year end? I very much hope that the department has learned lessons from its experience with the Culture Recovery Fund, which, as we all know, took some time to start distributing moneys.

In response to a question on equal access for funding by women’s sports, Mr Huddleston said that there would be an appropriate proportion for women’s sport. What, in the Minister’s view, is an appropriate amount? Again, I would appreciate a percentage. I know, from previous comments, that the Minister shares my view that we must not allow the pandemic to reverse the excellent progress and good work in women’s sports over recent years, but that will be possible only with appropriate financial help and support.

The noble Baroness will not be surprised if I ask for an update on the Government’s planned fan-led review of football governance. We have been told that preparations are in progress without any dates being named. Ministers continue to point out that it was a manifesto commitment of theirs. Given this, we would expect there to be some more urgency.

I wish to probe a little on Monday’s announcement that a limited number of fans will be allowed to return to sports stadia once the national lockdown is lifted and the tier system resumes. Allowing up to 4,000 fans to attend outdoor sporting events and up to 1,000 spectators at indoor events is a welcome step forward after an unprecedented period of professional sport being played behind closed doors. Noble Lords will know that these numbers are the absolute cap, with a percentage system in place for clubs with lower-capacity stadia. Can the Minister provide the evidence base behind the 4,000-person attendance limit?

Manchester United’s Old Trafford can ordinarily host well over 70,000 fans. Even the old wooden stands at Goodison Park will fail to emit their customary creak with just 4,000 fans present. Twickenham Stadium has a capacity of 80,000. While it is not desirable to have these grounds full at this time, on what basis was it determined that they were unable to safely host a higher number? Premier League clubs have spent large sums preparing their grounds to accommodate socially distanced fans. Similar steps have been taken by rugby clubs and others in anticipation of reopening their doors. While they will be excited to welcome even a small number of fans back home, doing so is likely to result in financial losses, which will become unsustainable if the cap is not revisited.

Therefore, when are we likely to see a detailed road map for increasing sporting capacities? Will DCMS commission new test events to inform such a road map? Has any consideration been given to previous test events and the data they have provided? I draw attention to the case of Brighton & Hove Albion. There was approval in principle for crowds of around 8,000; that would move individual fixtures from loss to profit. Even for lower league clubs, which desperately need that additional income, the current offer is unlikely to satisfy demand from season-ticket holders who have paid up front. I am told that AFC Wimbledon, which has just completed its historic return to a new stadium at Plough Lane, had over 3,000 season-ticket holders last year and are expecting that number to climb. If the area remains in tier 2, it means that the club will admit only those who have already paid, rather than making new money.

I stress that we do not want to rush this. We need to be confident that stadia of all ages and sizes can cope with the return of fans and that there are appropriate protocols in place, not only around grounds but on transport networks as well. However, sports clubs at all levels need to see progress, not just one-off announcements. This is true in relation to support from government and clubs’ ability to raise their own funds. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Botham, for example, will be hoping that Lord’s is able to welcome a higher number of spectators when cricket returns next summer—otherwise he, like the rest of us, will be obliged to watch remotely and that cannot be right.

I want to close with one final question regarding the Prime Minister’s recent announcement. We know from the Independent SAGE group that the ability for families to mix at Christmas may require new restrictions in January and beyond. If that comes to fruition, is it the Government’s intention that attendance at sporting events would become an exception to restrictions or do we face the prospect of clubs opening their doors in December, only to see them being slammed shut in the new year?

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, it a good thing that we have this debate, even if it is nearly a week late. The old adage that a week is a long time in politics must be ringing very loudly in the Minister’s ears at the moment, because we have had many announcements that add to this Statement. The biggest, shall we say, elephant in the room— or dog that is not barking—is what is happening with arrangements for the upper tiers of professional football. If the Minister knows anything, now would be a good time to tell us. I would understand if no arrangement has been reached, but if anything can be told about that it would help us.

To return to what is said in the Statement, we need a little more flesh on the bone. For instance, I live in the village of Lambourn in the “Valley of the Racehorse”. There, the National Trainers Federation has been asking how the money going to the racing establishment is going to trickle down to its members. Without people who look after the horses, you do not have any event. It is not that straightforward and there are details to go through.

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, has already had a good go on the fact that getting some fans into the grounds will help a few clubs. But one of my noble friends has pointed out to me that certain lower league clubs are getting gates of 18,000—I think Portsmouth does, if my noble friend the Chief Whip has told me right. He is nodding at me, so I am fairly safe there. If that is the case, how will this potential lifeline and way out compensate them? The reform of football has been made more pressing by Covid. We should be looking at the fact that the current model is virtually unsustainable. I do not think that we should forget that at any time.

On rugby union, I heard a question today that I want to ask the Minister. What do you do about the money for the Olympic sport of sevens, which was cut due to this? I have heard that an arrangement is coming to help with that, which is good news, but rugby union may well be the last sport to play again. Let us face it, old prop forwards like me know that we form our own special non-socially distanced, germ-spreading little units around the place when we play the game. When do the Government expect there to be sufficient immunisation to allow us to come back? Intelligent things have been done about trying to get a different version of the game played. Rugby union may be the best example, but all sports have these questions. Will the Government have some form of timescale to allow the fans in and the playing of the game in all circumstances, especially at community level?

We may have gone a little wider than the Statement in this debate but a lot has happened. It would help if we could find out now exactly what the Government are thinking.