Scrap Metal Dealers Bill

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Friday 18th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Skelmersdale]

My Lords, before my noble friend Lady Browning, whose Bill this is in this place, rises to speak, may I ask the Minister how the Government intend to use the next five years, assuming that this amendment is passed? Are there any plans in view for the Government to include in a government Bill the very necessary contents of this Bill?

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I support the comments of my noble friend Lord Faulkner. I find it quite extraordinary, with all the work that has gone on to get this Bill through, and all the damage, cost and disruption to railways, sculptures, communications and churches that we have seen, that here we have the coalition supporting an amendment that will dump the same problem on the next Government in five years’ time. I hope they will reflect on this, because whoever is in government then—and I am sure it will not be the present coalition—will be blamed. It is really totally unnecessary to have this sunset clause. I hope that the Minister, on reflection, will withdraw this amendment so that the legislation can go through as quickly as possible and we can get some protection from these thieves through a system that will record transactions and enable the police to charge people, thereby reducing the thefts and all the damage they are causing.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I declare an interest, as my wife’s family has suffered from metal thieves taking memorial plaques from the side of a church in Dewsbury. I feel strongly about this: I do not think there are many people in this House who feel as strongly as I do about deregulation, but it seems quite extraordinary that we have Bills coming before this House—mainly originating from European directives—where there is no possibility of having a sunset clause and where the Government are unable to proceed. This looks like a bit of window dressing. We should listen very carefully to the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, about the risk and the delay which will arise.

I hope my noble friend will tell us whether, if this amendment were not passed, the Government would continue to support this Bill with enthusiasm. It seems to be an unnecessary risk and an unnecessary delay to send it back to the House of Commons for further consideration. I understand the long-standing difficulties there are with Private Members’ Bills in the other place. My late colleague, Eric Forth, used to cause considerable irritation by what he regarded as a principled stand on this matter. However, this is a Bill which, as several speakers have said, is urgently needed. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Browning for the diligent way in which she has carried us forward. At this very late stage, I am sorry that the Government are proposing to put a spanner in the works, which will delay much needed legislation.

Marine Navigation (No. 2) Bill

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Friday 18th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to participate in this debate. I first declare my interest as president of the United Kingdom Maritime Pilots’ Association; I am also a harbour commissioner in the port of Fowey in Cornwall. This seems to be something of a Cornish Bill because the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, comes from Cornwall—as does Sheryll Murray MP, who introduced this Bill into the Commons. It is rather nice to think that this Bill, which I am sure will pass, will be a Cornish-originated Bill. Perhaps the rest of the country has something to learn from this; anyway it is good.

As has been said, the draft Bill was published by the previous Government and I made one or two attempts to take it forward in various marine navigation Bills, so of course I generally welcome this Bill. However, when I did my Bill I was required to seek the consent of the Prince of Wales, so I consulted the clerks here as to whether that was needed for this Bill and if not, why not. Helpfully, the counsel to the Cabinet Office has published two versions of a 50-page manual on when, how and whether you need the consent of the Queen or the Prince of Wales to any Bill.

I think some of it is redacted but the key thing is that this Bill does not apparently need the consent of the Prince of Wales—even though he is the harbourmaster of St Mary’s in the Isles of Scilly—because, as the clerk said,

“there is no requirement in the Bill that any harbour authority exercises”,

the duties put on it in this Bill. The clerk then said that,

“the text at line 34 on page 3”,

of this document,

“says a ‘harbour authority may give directions’”.

If the harbour authority was required to give directions, the Prince would have to give his consent but as the word is only “may”, he does not. That is all right then; we can carry on with the Bill. I hope that I have all the quotes right, as it is quite a complicated document.

Looking at the principle of this Bill and of other government legislation in the maritime sector, it has generally been based over the years on light regulation and on the assumption that all parties behave in a sensible and professional manner. The noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, emphasised how important it was to carry on with this so as to encourage as many people to use the water as possible, without getting in the way of others. The problem here is that the pressures on ship owners and crews to save money are nowadays immense: hence tiredness, cutting corners and, often, language problems. Most of the time, it is all right and nothing happens. There are sometimes small incidents and occasionally, sadly, some things one might term disasters, be they oil spills, cruise liners hitting rocks or whatever. We can all say that it will never happen again but, sadly, it occasionally does. In considering this Bill, we should make it proof against one or more parties acting stupidly, dangerously or whatever because the consequences could be catastrophic. I hope that they do not happen very often.

I take as support in this a quote from the Allianz Global Corporate & Specialty insurance company. Earlier this month, in releasing its annual report on ship losses, it said,

“it reveals the main reason for incidents seem to be human error”.

It emphasises that,

“self regulation initiatives and technological improvements such as the introduction of … ECDIS in July”,

all help,

“to reduce accidents, but only if coupled with effective training and management oversight”.

That is an important issue, which I want to speak about when it comes to the pilotage exemption certificates in Clause 2.

There has been much previous debate about Clause 2 over the years in the Commons: about whether it should be there at all and, if so, whether the amendments in this Bill, which add “deck officer” to,

“the master or first mate”,

should be there. The Government say that this is a deregulation benefit but it is really not very clear to whom the benefit applies and by how much. When the noble Baroness winds up, perhaps she can help to quantify this because from the mass of evidence that I have received—the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, referred to having received a lot of this too—I know that the current PEC requirements under the 1987 Act have been developed and are of long standing over centuries.

I was very interested to hear of the pilotage arrangements for Watchet because I was there a couple of years ago and, with that rise and fall, it is some harbour. There is an old pilot boat in the museum there, which I think has been recreated. It shows how dangerous it was and what the importance of local knowledge was there.

I am not sure where the pressure for this change is coming from. The Chamber of Shipping seems to have confirmed my view that it is coming from a very small sector of the shipping industry; basically, a dredging company in the Thames. There, you have three people on the dredger: the master, the first mate and a third person, who is perhaps the deck officer. Because of the working time directive requirements, the master likes to dump the aggregate on the quay while the first mate likes to do the dredging, so somebody has to drive the ship in between and it obviously has to be the deck officer. We can debate whether such a person has the right training or experience. We will need to debate further whether it is appropriate for such a definition to be applied to bigger shipping. I have seen no substantive argument from the Chamber of Shipping or others to support the claims that this change needs to take place.

There are two key issues here. One is that if the phrase “deck officer” is to be applied properly, it has to have a proper definition of how they are trained and what qualifications they have. I suggest there is also an issue as to what managerial responsibility they have in relation to the master. It is fine to say that he might be the navigation officer. However, if he is also employed and the boss, two levels up, is the master it might be a brave person who overruled that master. While it is not overruling, because the master is in charge, it is a different relationship from just providing the navigation information. There is a lot more work to be done on this, and I hope that we can discuss this more with the noble Baroness between now and Committee.

I shall quote one or two comments about this. The first is from David Phillips, chief harbourmaster of the PLA, who says that,

“pilotage is possibly the most important risk control measure that ports have … It is important to understand that the act of pilotage is a command function. To exercise command at sea requires a measure of experience that will come from sea experience”.

The UK Harbour Masters’ Association wrote to Sheryll Murray on 26 November, saying,

“It is essential that the role of pilot is, in the interests of marine safety, restricted to only the most experienced navigation officers signed on the vessel’s articles or other official document of engagement”.

I met my noble friend Lord West outside. He apologised that he could not be in this debate but allowed me to quote him as saying that he thought that this change in the definition of who could have a PEC was actually dangerous.

The noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, quoted from the House of Commons evidence. Its Transport Select Committee report of 2008 into the Draft Marine Navigation Bill said:

“We are extremely concerned at the proposal in Clause 4 to amend the provision for pilotage to extend the scope of who can hold a PEC. The proposed change would impose additional burdens on competent harbour authorities and make it harder to ensure that only appropriately qualified staff carried out pilotage. This could create unnecessary dangers”.

The only safe way is to remove Clause 2, but I look forward to discussing this with the noble Baroness between now and Committee. I hope that we can reach agreement before then without causing too much delay to the Bill, because I want it to go through.

I turn to Clause 5 and the power of general direction. It is an important part of a CHA’s role, and the current process is very long-winded. This is an important clause, giving harbours the powers to do this more quickly. I have been involved in debates with the ports and the shipping and leisure industries. Most of the time they have to work together, but I suggest that the Bill has to make provision for when they do not. We have all had examples of where this has gone wrong; noble Lords will have seen an interesting video clip 18 months ago of a racing yacht in the Solent going across the bows of a tanker, with the spinnaker getting caught in the racing yacht’s anchor. The mast came down but luckily no one was hurt. What surprised me was that the entire crew were serving naval officers. If the Navy can get it wrong, one or two other people can probably get it wrong as well.

I am not having a bash at the Navy, because there are equal stories on the other side. I heard yesterday from the Royal Yachting Association that, after the ports had said, “We’ll work together. It’ll all be all right. We’ll be very friendly. We’ll consult. The leisure industry needn’t worry. It’ll be all right on the night”, the port of Dundee, which already has the powers, is requiring users of recreational craft, presumably including dinghies, to submit passage plans to the Forth and Tay Navigation Service in advance of putting their boats in the water or going to sea. That goes beyond what is necessary, desirable or even appropriate. If that kind of thing can happen without consultation and listening to those whom they have consulted, it confirms that there is a need for something better than what is currently in the Bill.

I generally support Clause 9, regarding the general lighthouse authorities. It is good for the GLAs to be able to invest and go into commercial business, but I hope that it will bring benefits to the shipping lines and those who pay the light dues. Hopefully, it will improve the efficiency of the whole thing.

With those few words, I wish the Bill well. I hope that we can get it to Royal Assent without too many delays.

Public Bodies (Abolition of the Railway Heritage Committee) Order 2013

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I will take the opportunity first and foremost to congratulate my noble friend Lord Faulkner on his unremitting commitment to this subject, on his many years of service on the committee and on the relentless way in which he has turned the issue around. I am sure that the Government must regret publishing their long list of bodies to be abolished, only to discover a little late in the day that many of them were doing incredibly useful work that was much valued not just by the people directly involved but by the community at large. That is the point I will make about railway heritage. As the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said, the issue is important not just to those of us—of whom I am not ashamed to acknowledge that I am one—who are rail enthusiasts. The income of several generations of my family depended on the rail industry, but the importance of the work of this committee goes much wider.

There can be few countries worldwide where one cannot find examples of British railway engineering. We not only invented the railways but in many countries of the world built them, along with the locomotives that ran on them. I will mention the railways of Paraguay and Zambia because I have seen them. Companies from Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Glasgow and Manchester make the equipment that built their locomotives and that maintains their railways. I do not want to indulge in hyperbole but I imagine that there are few countries in the world where there is no British railway engineering. This is an achievement we should celebrate. It is a national issue, rather than one simply for people interested in railway heritage.

Perhaps I may be forgiven for being slightly parochial in drawing the attention of the House to Coalbrookdale in the Ironbridge Gorge, Telford, the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution. It was the marriage of Richard Trevithick and the Coalbrookdale Company that produced the steam locomotive that ran on iron rails in the first decade of the 19th century. There is a replica in the Ironbridge Gorge Museum. The tradition that it celebrates is a wonderful example of something that is of tremendous interest—I repeat—to many more people than simply those who are interested in railways. Half a million people visit the Ironbridge Gorge Museum every year.

I conclude by saying that it is not just history that we should celebrate. The rail heritage industry—perhaps it is not so much an industry as a movement—is of real relevance to our economy today. Engineering activities are taking place in a number of centres that are keeping skills going that otherwise would be lost. Locomotives are being built at Boston Lodge in north Wales, and there are engineering apprenticeships at Crewe that even today are keeping going skills that might otherwise be lost. That is of tremendous importance. Finally, the subject is of great importance to the tourism industry. Members of the other place who have a heritage railway in their constituency know that it attracts visitors and brings strength to the economy.

My noble friend has embarked on a noble exercise to ensure that the committee’s functions are maintained. As this is an amicable debate I will not introduce a sour note, but perhaps I may send a gentle and friendly memo to this Government and to what I hope will be the subsequent Labour Government, suggesting that before they abolish something they should check whether it is doing something useful.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I add my congratulations to my noble friend Lord Faulkner. He has worked tirelessly on railway heritage. If it was not for him, we would now be in a complete mess. I was very surprised to hear the Minister say that the Railway Heritage Committee was a good example of voluntary work that has now been moved to the Science Museum. He said that it had had a bit of administrative support from the Science Museum before, or that it now has it. I cannot see what the difference is between them. It is moving the deckchairs for the sake of it. I suspect that it will cost more and do exactly the same thing; where is the benefit? My noble friend Lord Grocott talked about old steam engines. A month ago I went round the National Railway Museum in New Delhi, where most of the engines, as he said, were built in this country—largely in Glasgow—and they were very fine. I hope that this tradition continues. Of course, they now build very good engines of their own in India.

Having listened to the Minister’s explanation, which I believe lasted a good seven minutes, and to the story that my noble friend Lord Faulkner told about the work that he had to do just to move things across to the Science Museum, I am afraid that my only conclusion is: thank God he was there to do it. It will be fine in the future when the next Labour Government make things better, but this is a classic case of dogma ruling brain when it started. As my noble friend Lord Grocott said, I hope that it is not repeated.

[Lord Snape]

My Lords, I, too, join in the general chorus of discontent about the actions of the Government today. I support my noble friend Lord Faulkner and agree with his very able speech about the need to care for railway artefacts and his description of the work that the Railway Heritage Committee has done over the years. I have no personal interests to declare except that in the 1980s, along with the late Robert Adley, I served on the advisory committee to the Railway Heritage Committee, which was newly formed at that time. The work that it has done over the years is enormously commendable.

Some of the reminiscences—if I may put it like that—of my noble friend Lord Grocott apply to railway installations all over the world. However, there are many such installations still in the United Kingdom, which the Railway Heritage Committee would have been interested in seeing properly preserved. I do not suggest for a moment that transferring these matters to the Science Museum will necessarily adversely affect the future of railway heritage. However, I am conscious, as your Lordships will be conscious, that the Science Museum has lots of other things with which to concern itself. The great thing about the Railway Heritage Committee is precisely that it was concerned about our railway heritage, and worked to preserve that which we still enjoy at present and which future generations should also enjoy. I deplore and regret any diminution of that concern for our railway heritage as a result of this order.

I suspect, as did my noble friend Lord Grocott, that some civil servant somewhere drew up a list of quangos to be abolished and this one found itself on there. Even at this late hour, I urge the Government to think again. As a railwayman myself, and the son of a railwayman, I feel strongly about our railway heritage. I have bored your Lordships previously with stories about my own railway career. I point out that there are still artefacts—they can still be regarded as such—in use on the present-day modern railway which are well worth preserving. I am not sure I would have the ability, or that the Science Museum would have the time or patience, to listen to the case for preserving them. For example, there are signal boxes in the Stockport area, where I spent the early part of my career, which were built by the London and North Western Railway in the 1880s, and which still signal trains today. Do I approach the Science Museum when eventually those signal boxes are abolished, to say that these are part of our railway heritage, and ought to be kept?

I might say in passing that, although those of us who travel regularly on the west coast main line are familiar with the litany of equipment failures—“failure of lineside equipment” seems to be the stock response to any delays—that does not happen in the Stockport area. Thanks to the London and North Western Railway, which installed those signal boxes in 1888, they still do not have any problems, all these years later, in passing Pendolino trains through the town of Stockport. If we are properly to preserve that sort of railway heritage, we might need a wider scope than saying, “We will leave these matters to the Science Museum”.

So I ask, even at this late hour, for the Minister to reflect again. The abolition of quangos is not necessarily a bad thing, but the old proverb about babies and bath water certainly applies in this particular case.

Cycling: Infrastructure

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Monday 10th December 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion of the Highways Agency’s budget is allocated to infrastructure for cycling.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Highways Agency works with cycling organisations to provide parallel routes, safe access and crossing points to the strategic route network. These schemes are funded within the agency’s portfolio of small improvement schemes, on which the expenditure is approximately £50 million each year across the portfolio. Provision for cyclists is also a consideration of the agency’s major schemes. The specific investment relating to cyclists is therefore difficult to disaggregate.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer and I congratulate the Government and TfL on the investment they have recently announced for cycling infrastructure. However, does he agree that possibly there is a need to go further? There is a poll in the Times today, coincidentally, which shows that 25% of the respondents think that segregated cycle lanes would make people cycle more. It also shows that only 2% of journeys in this country are by cycle compared with a figure of about 25% to 35% in Belgium, Holland and Denmark. Does he agree that it is time to look at reallocating space on the roads for cycles and providing much greater investment alongside that?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the views of respondents to any survey are obviously important. We should not disregard them. We should take account of them. Segregation has its benefits because you will be able to reduce the number of accidents far more effectively. However, there is the issue of economic use of the road space and the business case if you want such a scheme. In London, these are matters for Transport for London.

British Transport Police

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right in his analysis of the problem. Unfortunately, we cannot make any suitable amendment to current legislation going through your Lordships’ House. I am advised that other routes, such as a regulatory reform order, are not suitable, so we will have to wait for a suitable slot in the primary legislation. However, the noble Lord’s point about legal uncertainties is extremely important.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, how many BTP officers carry firearms? As my noble friend said, it seems odd that they do not have the same legal position as other police officers around the country who are able to carry firearms. What is the legal position of BTP officers who carry firearms? Are they at risk on a personal level in a way that the other police officers are not?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord’s first question, we are talking about only 53 police officers, so the bureaucracy load is manageable, although extremely inconvenient. The weakness in the legislation on the protection of officers who are involved in an incident, alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, is an extremely important point.

Airports (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Friday 9th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the gap. I apologise for not putting my name down. I did not think that I could be here. I find this a very interesting Bill, not least because it focuses on the issues of hub and spoke. As the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, suggested, there is more than one hub in the UK. He listed Gatwick, Stansted, Luton and Heathrow, but I suggest that Birmingham is an equally important hub of the future. It certainly seems to have intentions to become one. Once the sale of Stansted by BAA is complete, we will have five different airports in five different ownerships.

It seems to me that the objective of this—if there is an objective from the Government—is for the Government to do nothing about it and let the market decide, which is a good idea. Certainly, we have seen press comments that several of these airports are looking to be a so-called hub in their own right. I believe that there is a problem of suggesting that the only hub in this country is Heathrow. I think that the Government might get into trouble if they start designating slots in Heathrow but not in some other airports.

That moves me on to the designation of slots. I wonder whether that is right to do unless there is market failure. The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, recently gave me a Written Answer in connection with transport to the Isle of Scilly, which is the other end of the spectrum from Northern Ireland. It has rather less population but is a similar distance from the mainland and I would suggest that it has an even worse transport system. For me, surely a market failure means no or too few services, high prices, probably a monopoly supplier and not servicing the population as they would expect—although perhaps they expect too much. If there is a market failure, there needs to be an argument for saying that the subsidy is necessary to keep a service going, which certainly in Scotland is called a lifeline service.

I am aware that there are quite a few offshore islands and regions in the European Union where lifeline services are provided, which I think are all subsidised. Certainly, some of them are subsidised in Scotland. Mostly they are ferries but a few air services are subsidised. They are allowed under EU law on the basis that the subsidising authority goes out to tender in the usual way.

However, I question whether Northern Ireland is an offshore island in the same definition as some of the Scottish islands or the Isles of Scilly. If there was a subsidised service to Northern Ireland to a hub, which hub would it go to? If I was running an airport in one of the five airports around the south-east and the subsidised service went to another one, I would probably reach for the Competition Commission and ask whether it was fair. It is a case that would have to be made. There are quite serious problems about allocating slots at a particular airport for these services without it being a subsidised service and going through the whole process of justification for it, and whether there is any other way. I shall be very interested to hear what the Minister says when he responds.

Railways: London Midland Rail Franchise

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

I am sure that the whole House will not be surprised to hear that I am very pleased at my grandfather’s achievements. However, there is a difficulty in having one nationalised industry: it is very difficult to determine the appropriate salary for a train driver when you have only one employer. We have several employers of train drivers and our experience is that train drivers are finding out who is the best employer, either in terms of salary or, as pointed out by the noble Countess, in relation to other terms and conditions.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, do the Government have enough staff in the Department for Transport to micromanage all these franchises, to ensure that each driver is paid the right amount and that there are enough drivers, and then to impose the penalties if they fail? After the west coast main line franchise, possibly it should be recruiting another 50% of its civil servants.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the House that my department does not have enough staff to micromanage the franchise. We have no intention of doing that. We receive reports on the cancellations but we do not need to micromanage.

Isles of Scilly: Helicopter Services

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure a lifeline passenger service to the Isles of Scilly following the closure of the helicopter service on 1 November 2012.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company, which operates the ferry and fixed-wing services, has already announced plans to increase those services to meet some of the passenger demand following the closure of the helicopter service. My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Mr Norman Baker, has recently met, and is due to meet again, delegations including the Isles of Scilly Council to discuss transportation to and from the Isles of Scilly.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply because it marks some progress, even if the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company is now a monopoly supplier of transport services. Is he aware that during the five months between now and the beginning of next April, there will be only a small fixed-wing service of aeroplanes that are susceptible to wind and fog— for example, the service did not run yesterday? If the evidence of last winter is taken into account, the service would not run for 22 days over five months. With a population of around 2,000 people earning the fourth lowest wages in the UK and a reliance on tourism, those who use the aeroplane service have to pay £140 return. Does the noble Earl agree that in Scotland, most of the islands have both air and ferry services as lifeline services, and the fare for the equivalent distance is £25 return? Will the Government now look at a lifeline service for the Scilly Isles so as to take this forward and make the service comparable with that in Scotland?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord used the word “monopoly”, which implies that there can be only one operator. It is a free market and other operators can come in. We need to see how the market develops. The noble Lord also talked about the “lifeline”, which is a term generally used to describe vital transport connections between mainland and island communities. However, it carries no formal or legal status. The Government recognise that many people regard maritime passenger and freight services to the Isles of Scilly as a lifeline, and that is why we have said that we are committed to ensuring that these continue.

Crime: Drink-driving

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we have carefully considered this issue, and we have considered and reported back on the North report. The difficulty is that if we lower the limit to 50 milligrams, we would divert resources away from the cohort of drivers who ignore the law and drive quite often at double the legal limit. The police would be tied up with dealing with these low-level offenders and would not be dealing with the much higher-risk offenders.

[Lord Berkeley]

Is not the real argument that the Minister is putting forward that any reduction in the level to that of the rest of Europe goes against the total anti-Europe policy that we see across so many fronts, rather than trying to save a lot of lives on the roads by lowering the limit?

[Earl Attlee]

No, my Lords. We act on good advice from our officials. It is important to understand—

Civil Aviation Bill

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Monday 9th July 2012 Grand Committee

I can inform the Committee that in the past two years the ANO offences were used in four prosecutions and convictions, and there has never been a prosecution for the Section 81 offence. Accordingly, this clause repeals Section 81 of the 1982 Act as in practice it is redundant. For those reasons, I hope that my noble friend will withdraw his opposition to the clause standing part.

[Lord Berkeley]

Could the Minister explain what Clause 105(5) means in practice? It refers to,

“power to apply certain provisions to Crown aircraft”.

The Minister will know that we debated transport to the Scilly Isles a week or two ago. I heard that Prince Charles visited there last week with great success. However, there was thick fog and the only plane that was allowed to fly was his. I hope that it was safe— I am sure that it was—but in terms of safety of navigation it is odd that only one plane was allowed to fly. Was everybody else banned or did they not have the right equipment? Maybe this is irrelevant to the clause but what is special about “Crown aircraft”?

[Lord Rotherwick]

It may help if I jump in. I suspect that planes landing in the Scilly Isles were under CAT—Civil Air Transport. In certain situations, a private plane can be landed under VFR when a public plane cannot under IFR. I only suggest that that might be the case