Probate: Waiting Times

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, as far as I am aware, the problems in the probate registry are not related to persons working at home, but I will make further inquiries for my noble friend Lord Cormack. As I say, processing times are coming down. If noble Lords and others involved would care to report to me or my colleague in the other place, Minister Freer, their personal experiences, we are on the case and we will address this issue.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for that offer, because my niece has been told that she will wait two years for probate. In the meantime, she is having to care for a bungalow that was left—she has to pay for the heating and the insurance on the property, but she has very little money to do that. There was a problem with the probate service in 2018, which was pre-Covid. The problem arose because of the cuts by Osborne on the public service generally. We are going to the dogs right across the board with so many of our public services and we need to reverse that now. One way in which we could help people with probate problems is to give them some advance towards the costs that they have to meet. Will the Minister consider that?

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, I invite the noble Lord to write to me or the relevant Minister in the other place with that particular problem so that we can address the issue. That is not the sort of thing that we wish to see happening. We will of course consider all available opportunities to improve the service offer.

Prison Capacity

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Clarke for that question. The Government place the highest premium on rehabilitation and reducing the reoffending rate. The Government’s position is that this is not the moment to consider a change in sentencing policy.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister look at, and be so kind as to bone up on, the draft mental health Bill? A section of it deals with the prison population and the inadequate treatment currently given to those with mental health problems. There are some beneficial changes coming, but we need much more. They address only the really vulnerable, and there are many people in prison with serious mental health problems that are not being addressed. The way forward is to give them greater support and assistance. In that context, we perhaps ought to take a more liberal view and not solely employ psychiatrists but bring in therapists to assist with rehabilitation.

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord and will certainly bone up on the mental health Bill, as he suggests. It is true that the proportion of prisoners suffering from mental health problems is too high. We, as a Government and as a nation, should try to do something about that, and I hope the mental health Bill will represent progress in that regard.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

Lords Hansard - part one & Committee stage
Wednesday 10th November 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

172: Clause 79, page 74, line 2, after “offence,” insert “and the details of any financial costs they incurred as a result of the offence,”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides the victims with the opportunity to register their financial losses and seek compensation.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 172, I will also speak to Amendments 173, 177, 179, 180 and 186, to be inserted after Clause 79. These are about victims’ financial losses, which can often arise as a result of an assault on their person, their property or their belongings. The amendments seek to ensure that the authorities and the perpetrators are made available of these costs and that, in turn, where possible, there might be some restitution for these innocent people whose property and goods have been attacked.

I bring the issue to the Committee’s attention based on a most unfortunate and regrettable experience of a friend of mine, Mr James McAra, who lives just outside Scunthorpe. He was at home watching television on the evening of 13 September this year in his house at Ashby. He was alone—he is a widower, aged 78 years, who has lived there for 55 years. He has brought up his family; they have all flown the nest and he is left alone. At 10 pm, his life was changed. There was a terrific crash outside the house, then suddenly his windows were smashed in and his front door was crashed down. Five masked, armed men with sledgehammers appeared in the house. He confronted one of them, who then gave him a push and shouted to his accomplices, “Oh fuck, it’s an old man. We’ve got the wrong effing house.” With that, they turned around, ran out and left him in a terrific state of shock. In the event, it turns out that the noise outside had been the smashing of his car with sledgehammers. It was so badly damaged that it has had to be written off.

As noble Lords can imagine, this is a most distressing experience—an attack and assault—for a man of such an age. The police arrived promptly; by all accounts, they were excellent and knew straightaway what had happened. The two houses next door had been raided on numerous occasions over the last two years in relation to drug dealing, and only two months earlier a young man had been found dead in one of them. The police believed that the attack on his property was intended for one of those houses, related to the ongoing drugs problem. This couple of houses, with numerous instances of anti-social behaviour, has made this once peaceful street a nightmare to live in. As a consequence, James is now considering moving because of this sickening experience and attack.

I turn to the amendments. To compound matters, Mr McAra is well out of pocket from this experience. The car insurance in no way covers the cost of the replacement car he has had to get. Then he has had to pay the excesses on the house insurance for new doors and new windows, and he has now been told that his future insurance premiums on his car and his property—the lot—will go up next year. Where is the justice for a victim of this kind?

I suspect that the chance of getting some reparations from the attackers, if they could be found, arrested and convicted, is quite a long shot. However, we have been disturbed to learn that it is not always understood by the authorities what the total cost has been and that there is no formal request for a record of the costs that might arise, in a variety of different ways, when someone is attacked in this way. Obviously, a requirement for conversations with the victims is laid down and victim support is offered, but financial losses are not necessarily recorded. I believe, and I am sure noble Lords share this view, that they should be. They should be taken into account in determining punishments and, if it is possible to get restitution, they should be known factors taken into account for that purpose.

Having heard this story, I am sure that noble Lords, like me, feel that it is time for some changes to try to give further assistance to victims. Mr McAra’s constituency MP is Holly Mumby-Croft, a Conservative MP who knows all about these facts and has been as supportive as she could be in the circumstances. She has been advised that these amendments will be put before the Committee today and, in due course, we are hoping they will be adopted and go back to the Commons. I think she is hoping that she can look for a sympathetic hearing from the Front Bench today. For positive action, in adopting these amendments, which will cost little to implement, we must go some way towards actually making changes. The amendments before us would facilitate such changes. On behalf of victims affected in this way, particularly Mr McAra, I have great pleasure in moving this amendment.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, has relayed to the Committee clearly a very distressing case of mistaken identity and anti-social behaviour generally in that street, apparently to do with drug dealing. If the perpetrators of this terrible crime were found, I am not sure that they would be given a caution, and I thought this part of the Bill was about police cautions—but I accept the general point that victims need to be protected. Although a caution would not be applicable in this case of the break-in at the home and the damage to the car, there might be one in respect of the general anti-social behaviour in the street. It is absolutely essential that the needs of victims are taken into account by the police, including for the financial losses that victims have suffered.

As I said on a previous group, out-of-court settlements have a high victim approval rating already. These amendments, in so far as they apply to police cautions, would ensure that they remain high, and to that extent we support them.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope that I have responded fully to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke. For the reasons that I have set out, I respectfully ask him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to everyone who has contributed. As noble Lords probably gathered, I was looking for a peg on which to hang my hat. I am pleased that I found a peg and I found someone who was prepared to cast a hat on it as well—I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for finding a possible solution.

There is a problem and it should be addressed. People should not be out of pocket. The cost is not just in respect of the one year when they have the incident. If an insurance policy goes up, it goes up and it stays up; it is an ongoing cost to the individual. I am grateful to the Minister for saying that he will have a look at this, so if there is an opportunity to find a way through I am happy to leave it for now and see if we can have a conversation to find a way for victims to be given the proper compensation for the problem that they have encountered. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 172 withdrawn.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Monday 8th November 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

157: After Clause 76, insert the following new Clause—
“Alcohol limits
(1) In section 11(2) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (interpretation of sections 4 to 10), the definition of “the prescribed limit” is amended as follows.(2) For paragraph (a) substitute—“(a) 22 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath,”.(3) For paragraph (b) substitute—“(b) 50 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood,”.(4) For paragraph (c) substitute—“(c) 67 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of urine,”. (5) In section 8(2) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (choice of specimens of breath), for “50 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath” substitute “31 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath”.”

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 157 would insert a new clause to lower the drink-drive alcohol limit in England and Wales from 80 milligrams to 50 milligrams of alcohol for 100 millilitres of blood and to make appropriate adjustments for breath and urine samples too.

I remind the House that I moved a similar amendment to the Road Traffic Act at Second Reading of a Private Member’s Bill on 29 January 2016. A full report is in Hansard of that date—in vol. 768, no. 102. I spoke then for 20 minutes. I reassure noble Lords that I am not going to do anything like that today.

[Noble Lords]

What a shame!

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

However, on rereading this speech, I was so pleased with the evidence-based arguments that I had advanced—which, as I say, I am not going to repeat this evening—that the more I read it, the more I realised what a shame it was that although the Bill went through this House, and I remind my colleagues here that they voted for it last time around, the Government would not give it time when it went to the Commons for it to be dealt with there.

Since 2015, matters have got worse rather than better, particularly in the last two years. The figures plateaued between 2015 and 2018, but we saw some serious injuries and deaths in 2019—a total of 2,050. A total of 230 people died, up from 200 in 2015, when I last addressed this issue. There was also an increase of 8% in seriously injured casualties compared to 2018. Will the Minister confirm whether the figures I am quoting are correct? If I am not right then I would be pleased to be corrected, but I think I am on the right track.

This country had a very good record in the last century. We led most of Europe. We trailblazed in addressing injuries and deaths on the road and all the aspects of them. However, over the years our leadership has started to diminish. This is in part because we have been unwilling to change. Had we gone back to my 2015 data, I would have been talking about Baroness Castle and the way that she introduced it, and asking how we alighted on the 80-milligram figure. It was plucked out of the air with not a great deal of evidence behind it, and work done subsequently indicated that it was very high indeed and should have been lowered.

We have ended up here, where we see that the rest of Europe is at 50 or below, with some as low as 20, and only two countries—England and Wales and Malta—have retained the figure of 80. The question is: have we done the right thing in persisting with holding to 80? Some of the Scandinavian countries that are doing extraordinarily well in reducing deaths on the road are way down at the 20 milligrams level.

Why do these countries have lower limits? It is because all the evidence shows that 80 milligrams in the blood increases the risk of a driver’s involvement in a collision, by three times for collisions leading to injuries and by about six times for collisions leading to death. Even at the lower BAC level of 50 that I am advancing in my amendment, and I am grateful to my colleagues who are supporting me—the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Finlay, have put their names to this amendment—carries substantial risks for people who are inebriated at that level. It is not an easy ride; it is a risky one. Those levels of risk, if the Government are prepared to accept our figures, would be reduced respectively to about 1.5 and 2.5 times more, by comparison with the figure of 80 milligrams. That is a stark difference.

I ask the Minister to say why the Government declined in 2016 to make the change and whether these academic assessments are right that we are permitting people to legally drive at a limit that is a danger to life and limb and we refuse to change it. Where is the evidence for continuing with what we are doing at the moment?

The Scottish Government, as we are aware, cut the limit to 50 milligrams in December 2014, Northern Ireland has legislated to follow suit, and the Welsh Government would like to do the same if they had permission from us. Initially, Scotland saw a decrease in the number of deaths and injuries, but later reports show that what has been happening there is not quite so encouraging as they first experienced.

I will be very straight about the facts. I am not going to pretend that it produced as good a result in Scotland as we would have liked, but there are some other factors to be taken into account there. They did not run any particularly big advertising campaign to try to drive it home. They did not give any further resources to enforcement. There is a range of things they could have done to make it more effective. Initially, certainly, there was some beneficial change. Lives were saved. If a few lives were saved, I am sure they would argue that it was worth doing. They probably need to do more now. The Minister was nodding. I anticipate that he will quote Scotland and say that they need to keep an eye on it—the Scottish results are not convincing enough for us to change.

I have identified a weakness, and I share the view that enforcement is vitally important. With the help of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, we have produced a solution on the enforcement front in Amendment 164, to which he will speak at greater length. We always try to be helpful. It is important to cut the number of deaths and the rising number of serious injuries. We must find any possible way to discourage people from drink-driving. Reducing the limit to 50 would be a discouragement. Support for the second amendment, to introduce random breath testing, need not necessarily mean incurring the use of greater resources. We believe that, on balance, it would provide a deterrent which would have a very dramatic effect on the way thatusb people who still continued to drink and drive would respond.

There is evidence from abroad. It has been particularly effective in Australia, where they have followed this practice. Australia had a very bad record on drinking and driving. The introduction of random breath testing has changed it quite dramatically. People no longer drink and drive as they used to do. Lifestyles have changed. We can do the same in this country.

The life of each individual is unique. It behoves us to take every opportunity to end the selfish killing and maiming by drunk driving. There is a particular category of repeat offenders. The reality is that the police often know who these people are, but unless they commit a traffic offence, the police cannot stop and breath-test them. If the second amendment is adopted, along with the first, I believe it would make a quite dramatic change in lifestyles and in respect for each other. Random breath testing would reduce deaths and injuries.

Driving under the influence of drugs is also an important issue to be addressed. We are not endeavouring to do this, or to complicate the issue here. In this context, we are simply dealing with alcohol. We will need to come back and look at people who take drugs. For the moment, this is about alcohol. It is about a relatively modest change with no great requirement for additional resourcing. It is about focusing on the area that really needs addressing. I trust that, this time round, the Government are prepared to support it, rather than to oppose it in the way that they did last time.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment. I declare that I chair the Commission on Alcohol Harm.

This amendment would simply bring us in line with other EU and Commonwealth nations. It has been estimated that this amendment alone could save at least 25 lives a year and prevent 95 casualties. This may not sound like a large number, but the majority of those who die on the road are young adults or children in accidents involving drink-driving. Men are far more likely to have been drinking: 78% of male drivers were involved in drink-drive accidents, against 69% of men in other types of accidents. Where casualties are involved, the numbers are also higher for men—67% where alcohol was involved, against 60% for all reported accidents.

Sadly, Wales does particularly badly, with a higher percentage of casualties in drink-drive accidents than in Scotland or England. When we look at the age of people involved, it is quite chilling. Most of the pedestrian casualties are children and young adults, most of the pedal cyclist casualties are children and young adults, and the motorcyclists are young adults. The car occupant casualty rate is higher when alcohol has been involved in the accident. The drink driver does not only kill themselves; the tragedy is that they will kill somebody else’s child or parent. If death is not the outcome, life-changing injuries often are. It has been estimated that around 5%—one in 20—of all casualties in reported road accidents involved alcohol in one way or another; often at least one driver or rider was over the drink-drive limit.

I look back in horror at my childhood, when “Have one for the road” was said as somebody left the house after coming round for dinner. The accident rate then was absolutely appalling; many people of my age can probably remember somebody who died in one of those accidents. However, if we look at 2019, despite Covid looming across Christmas and the festive season, there were 230 verified drink-drive fatalities, with a provisional estimate of 280 fatalities for that year involving drink. That constituted 13% of all casualties on the road, and there were 7,800 drink-drive casualties, accounting for 5% of all casualties on the roads.

In the report from the alcohol harms commission that I chaired we pointed out that in 2017, the Department for Transport estimated that 310 pedestrians and 110 cyclists were casualties in drink-drive accidents, including 60 children aged nought to 15. One police witness, Sergeant Mick Urwin, described the impact of drink driving. Apart from the perpetrators, who lose their licence and often their job and may be imprisoned, the greatest impact is on the family of someone killed or seriously injured by a drunk driver. It is devastating. He explained that

“delivering a death message to a parent, brother, sister, son or daughter to inform them that someone has been killed by a drink driver is not something I ever got used to.”

We had evidence from the ex-wife of an alcoholic about how difficult it was to persuade her children not to get in the car if they thought that daddy had had a drink. Fire officers told us that they now rescue more people from road collisions than house fires, and many of them are due to drunk-driving. A survey by Drink Wise, Age Well of 16,700 people over 50 found that drink-driving was commonplace among high-risk drinkers: 30% reported that they had driven when they thought they were over the legal limit in the preceding year. That is a huge number of people who are aware that they have drunk too much but who think they will get away with it.

If one young parent dies in a drink-drive accident, they are likely to leave orphaned two or three children. Those children’s life chances are seriously damaged, with higher rates of mental health problems and lower school attainment; they are less likely to get into higher education; and they are at a higher risk of suicide later in life—in other words, this year’s drink-driving fatalities leave decades of societal difficulties ahead. The tragedy is that these are avoidable accidents. The simple message: “Do not drink and hold the car keys” is the one to give the public. We all know that simple messages work. We all know that legislation gives messages. That, combined with the simple message that one in eight road deaths involves a driver over the limit, can be enough to bring about the change that we need across society. I do not know of anybody, other than perhaps those in the alcohol retail industry, who objects to lowering the drink-drive limit. We have an NHS that is struggling, a court system with backlogs, and terrible backlogs for psychological support services for young children who are bereaved.

We had a debate earlier about road safety. Nobody will be damaged by lowering the drink-drive limit, but every year hundreds of people will die, and thousands will be damaged, by not acting now. I hope the Government will see it is time to come in line with the rest of the Commonwealth.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My concern is that the Minister does not seem to have any policy that directly targets those drivers who I would describe as unregulated drinkers. His policy may have an effect on people who have made the mistake that I referred to and have around 80 milligrammes of alcohol in their blood, but for the unregulated drinkers who drive far in excess of the legal limit, his policies seem to be totally irrelevant.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. Other than the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, who raised some objections, and I will come to them in a moment, the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who raised a point about what the police can and cannot do, and the Minister, who had a different interpretation, I think everybody has been singing from the same hymn sheet. The evidence is there and it has got worse. The Government have the opportunity today to set out their stall on what they intend to do. While the Minister has done his best, he has been trying to make bricks without straw. I think the group is very happy to come together and have a meeting with appropriate people on the Government’s side. We will be very pleased to do that, but I give the Minister due notice that this is coming back on Report. It is not going to be left as it is at the moment; some change is required.

Regarding 50 milligrams, I would probably go for 20—the Scandinavian figure. I am sure that the Minister would argue it would make no difference. What matters is the message that is sent to the public at large about what is and is not acceptable. It is wrong that the Government permit a dangerous limit to be in force. Okay, 50 may not be the right limit, but it is less dangerous. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that the evidence comes from the work to which we referred. It did not look just at the 80 but at 50, and the further down you go, the less the risk. It is a simple fact of life. The Government either accept it and live with it or change it. I believe that the public are ready for change and that it is wrong that so many people are being maimed and having serious injuries, and the number has been rising. This needs addressing. This matter will come back.

I was very reasonable. I did not make a great thing about Scotland, as I know that some of the evidence is not helpful. There are other counterarguments, which my noble friend Lord Rosser on the Front Bench, advanced in defence of the Scottish position but it is not as comforting as we would wish. The issue is about how we relate to the public at large and how the Government project what is needed to make a change. We are not looking to involve a great deal more police in it or to upset people by being disproportionate. We are looking to present a deterrent. Most people will change their attitude if they think they are at risk of being stopped, and we would start to see some change taking place. We will have the meeting but this will be back on Report.

I suggest to the Minister that he should explore being a bit more flexible. We are prepared to put a sunset clause in the amendment so that the Government can go back to 80 if they wish or to run an experiment, but it is time to make some change rather than leaving life as it was way back in 2015 and see a continual worsening of the position. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 157 withdrawn.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

Friday 18th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton for stimulating this debate by tabling his Bill. I say that not because I support it but because I do not see him as an opponent; I still see him as a friend. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, started the ball rolling with this, and since then the momentum has gathered pace. My noble and learned friend’s commission, followed now by the Supreme Court’s intervention, requires that we address this issue and find a way through it.

This also gives me an opportunity today publicly to thank the scores and scores of people who have written to me on this topic—people whom I would judge, rather like myself, as ordinary people expressing their views overwhelmingly in the majority against the Bill. They are frightened by the possible change that such a law might bring, no matter how it may be dressed up or caveated with safeguards for the time being. They are frightened that it will be the start of a journey that will lead to other changes that not only will be about assisted suicide—helping someone with six months to live—but will go beyond that, as indeed we have started to see in Belgium.

Many who have written to me are carers, disabled people, nurses, doctors. They are people who, from reading their letters, are as compassionate as any of us can be. They are people who give service to the public over a wide area. They are people who have been expressing, too, the concerns that they have had in dealing with death and changes within their own families. They have written to me about their emotions and feelings on seeing loved ones depart, sometimes with suffering. They have also described their fears about where this change may lead and how it will affect their vulnerable family and friends. Those with disabled members of the family are particularly concerned that that may be further down the line under another agenda.

The unintended consequences cannot be ignored. I wonder how in law we can avoid someone coming back to raise fundamental questions, amendments and challenges to the law. Like my noble friend Lady Meacher, I raise the point about death. We have not had sufficient debate previously about death and how we approach it. Those who have written to me have talked about their fears, not just about their family but about how they may approach death, and their fears of it.

I am frightened of dying too, as I get older; it is an issue that comes into my head virtually every day, in a way that it did not when I was younger. That leads me to consider the nature of my life, where I am going and what it is about. It leads me to think about whether I can continue to control everything in my life—and I have controlled a good deal of it, for much of my life. But I know that, as I get towards the end, I will not have that control open to me. I have learnt that I will be required, and need, to accept what is coming to me—to embrace it and to move forward, whichever way life or death is taking me.

I have come to the view that there is a power in my life that is greater than myself, far greater than the controls that I can exercise, and I must render myself up eventually to that power, as all my forebears have done. Do we now have more suffering than our forebears had? Do we have greater difficulties in dying than they had? I believe that death is part of the journey, the final rung on the ladder, and that we need to concentrate increasingly on those unfashionable issues of trust and faith that, regrettably, have not been mentioned too much in the debate today.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Deech]

My Lords, I should have declared an interest as chairman of the Bar Standards Board, which prohibits barristers from receiving or dealing in referral fees. If I gave the impression last week that referral fees that go to unions go direct to the political party and that is wrong, I apologise. My point is that it is happening in another way. I have not yet been corrected but my research on the internet showed that direct referrals from a party to a firm resulted in the firm paying a referral fee to the political party. Therefore, if it is not happening in one way, it may be happening in another.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, I support the line taken by our Front Bench. Without any question, there are risks with referral fees but they are fairly minimal. The questions that the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and others should ask themselves are whether they believe that there will be more of the kind of litigants who at present benefit from the union offering these services, admittedly through using referral fees, especially given what we are doing to legal aid in this Bill; or whether there will be fewer people taking action. My view is that if these changes are put through, the likelihood is that unions will not be able to offer services on the same kind of basis that they have in the past. As a consequence, fewer people will pursue cases and the people who will not be pursuing those cases will be the ones at the bottom of the pile, and not those who are higher up with a fund of money to pursue the law without any trouble whatever. I put those very serious questions to those who are pursuing this line.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I shall intervene briefly. I declare an interest in that a firm in which I was a partner had major arrangements with a number of trade unions.

I say to the noble Lord who has just spoken that the unions and the firms who do their work will be able to adjust their arrangements. For a start, by not paying the referral fee, the solicitors doing the work will be able to drop their charges to take account of that fact, and the trade unions will be able to adjust their arrangements with their members, although it will not be a major adjustment. The point that the noble Lord reasonably made is capable of adjustment in a way that will enable the abolition of referral fees—which, in general, are extremely deleterious to justice—to be effected.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, I, too, warmly welcome the alcohol abstinence and monitoring requirement that the Government have introduced, and I thank my noble friend Lady Northover for the hard work that she has put into bringing together all the parties in order to get an agreement. That is why we have this measure before us tonight. Perhaps I may also say that my friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and my noble friend Lady Jenkin have worked over the past few weeks not only to bring this to the attention of the Government but to find a solution that will enable us to see this provision on the statute book before, we hope, too long.

These will be trials, of course, and I hope that they prove a valuable tool in addressing the issue of binge drinkers. During the working week many of these people, of whom there are increasing numbers, hold down responsible jobs; but at the weekend they decide that they have not had a good night out unless they get paralytically drunk, to the point where not only do they have to be helped home but—as the noble Baroness knows, having taken me to visit St Mary’s Hospital Paddington to see the work being done there—they take up huge National Health Service resources. I am sure that if we are going to tackle what in this Chamber we euphemistically refer to as binge drinking, these provisions will be valuable across a range of criminal activity and act as a deterrent for the particular group of binge drinkers who will find it difficult to comply with some of these measures during the working week. They may well start to take some responsibility for their behaviour.

The question of when alcohol dependency becomes a medical condition has already been mentioned. I would stress to my noble friend on the Front Bench that the Government should continue as they have started by ensuring that alcohol abuse does not remain the Cinderella of the drugs and alcohol scenario. It is important to ensure that people get appropriate treatment and that it is sustained so that they can recover. As we know, that takes a long time and it takes resources. It is not something that is easy to achieve, but it can be done. I hope that the Government will not take their foot off the pedal in terms of ensuring that proper treatment is available to those who become alcohol dependent.

Finally, these are trials, and as is the case with all trials, it may well be that some defects are identified by the end of the trial period. Some things may not work properly and could be different. If that is the case, I urge the Government not to abandon the trials and say, “Oh well, they didn’t work”—I am sure they will not do that—but to look for ways to modify the proposals, even if it means coming back to the House to make further changes to the legislation. I feel that this is one step on what will be a long journey to identify and address the systemic problems of alcohol abuse that we have in this country.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

I, too, welcome the Government’s statement. I am one of those who have been on this journey since we commenced it in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, I want to express my support for and gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. Her single-mindedness and determination have been extraordinary. She has been willing to accommodate the objections that come along, and on the route she has brought together a wide range of supporters for this change, not the least of which is the mayor’s office. Over the period people have quite significantly adjusted their responses.

The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, was also an important part of this process. I agree with what she has just said about how we should move forward with the Government. I also thank the Government for having shifted their position over the past few months. I believe that they have now presented to the House a workable set of propositions. They will be implemented on a trial basis, but they embark on an entirely new approach and are unlike anything we have tried before. It is probably the first time that the word “sobriety” has been used in legislation in this way. I may be wrong on that, but I certainly have not seen it while I have been here over the past decade. It gives us a platform on which we can try to build in the future.

I also congratulate the Government on bringing forward these proposals in advance of publishing their strategy on alcohol. How many times are we given papers and strategies, but not the teeth to accompany them? Yet in this instance the Government are taking action in advance of the words that no doubt will follow when the paper is produced. I think that people across the whole Chamber are very pleased indeed with the progress that has been made over the past months. We look forward to seeing how the trials pan out. They may need to be adjusted, but they will provide the Government and magistrates around the country with a new tool to help us tackle the pernicious problem of the abuse of alcohol.

[Baroness Newlove]

My Lords, I will not go on for too long because others have covered the issue. I welcome the Government’s take on this, and obviously I want to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on her hard work. Her foot has been flat down on the pedal. As someone who has suffered and who is passionate about making a change in our society, I am really grateful for these pilots. As we have just heard from the noble Baroness, after 10 o’clock at night 80 per cent of all crime is alcohol-related. My husband was attacked at 10 o’clock, so I reiterate that this is very important.

I welcome these pilots, but as we have just heard, they are only pilots. However, we have to think outside the box. They are risky, but risks can be turned around. It is important that we do not wait for more victims and families to lose loved ones. We must do what we say on the tin and make communities feel safe and be happier places to live in. I receive many letters from people who hide behind their doors because they are scared of what they are going to face outside. I live with that every day and I want to make sure that we tackle this problem. I am very interested in these pilots and I wait with bated breath to see what they do.

Even the magistrates welcome this development; I have spoken to magistrates in two areas. Also, offenders will be helped to turn their lives around. Even so, their lifestyles are no justification. Drugs and alcohol are no defence for murder, but when it comes to sentencing they are seen as mitigating circumstances along the lines of, “Oh but for the alcohol”. We have to stop justifying alcohol abuse and make changes for the better. I really welcome these amendments from the Government.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, I am in the minority in the House and on the speakers list, although I am much comforted by some of the speeches that I have just heard. It is both right and just that those who have power over the lives of others and who can make and amend laws—and we in this House do have powers—should be subject to the will of those people, the electorate. Therefore, in principle I seek a democratically elected and accountable second Chamber. In this I am in accord with my party and its traditions. Noble Lords may have heard statements to the contrary today, but the Labour Party stands for a democratically elected second Chamber and I do not believe that it will change its view in future years.

There has been a lot of talk also about MPs at the other end changing their views. I do not know from my contacts whether this is the case. However, I have spent some time looking at MPs who spoke in the debates at the other end, and it seems that many of them have been around for quite some time. A fair number of them are coming to the end of their careers, and possibly a number might hope to come to the House of Lords. It is very difficult to get a measure of the strength of feeling among the new MPs—and there are a lot of them down there. My guess is that if push comes to shove, most of them will stand with their leadership. Secondly, they will look at the manifestos on which they were elected. All the manifestos, even if the parties did not get majorities, have statements to the effect that those parties want an elected second Chamber. The MPs will also look at allegations that have been made about their conduct, and about breaking their promises, particularly after what we have seen in the past 12 months. Again on this issue, if it comes to the push, I believe that they will not leave themselves open to the allegation that they have breached the promises given in their manifestos.

I urge the House to look a bit wider than this debate has done so far—and I am very much a supporter of the House and in love with the House. We had rather a surprise three or four years ago when more people in the Commons voted for the change. People down this end did not believe that would happen. It is important that we do not misjudge the mood and the momentum. This topic is very much about momentum. It has been on the move since 1997 and there is a long way to go yet.

There is also a change of mood taking place among the public at large at a very fast pace that it ill behoves us to ignore, particularly in relation to the media, to communications, to the internet and so on. We can be caught out if we do not watch what is happening. If there was a referendum on whether the House should be 100 per cent elected, the public would throw it out completely, no matter what arguments were made.

There has been some movement in the Commons but I certainly cannot see it standing on its head and supporting the Steel Bill or 100 per cent appointments. I just do not see that happening; it is not the reality. They are not going to do that even if there was more opposition to election. We have to take note of some of those points. They will also be conscious that we are now a House of over 800 and that they are to be reduced in due course to 600. They will ask questions about the cost and sustainability of what we are doing. These are all topics that have not come up so far today but I think we should look at them.

Some people here are taking note of the need for change beyond just talking about tinkering around the edges. I listened with great interest to the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, this morning. He is a greatly respected Peer and not a man who is about disturbing the normal state of affairs—he is a man for stability and a man who knows when there is a mood and change taking place and when there is a requirement to respond to it. It is interesting that he now advocates a move towards a form of election—not direct election, true, but indirect election—but this change is starting to take place in some areas in this House. The message for those of us who listen carefully to each other is to listen very carefully to what is going on around us.

If this Bill went through, I suppose that would be my manifesto for an election next time round and I would be out on the first list in 2015—one of the number to be ejected. The view has been put to me that if you are in favour of elections you will be the first to go out of the House if changes do come. Maybe I will respond to that.

Having said all that, I find the Bill a huge disappointment in certain respects, mainly in regard to omissions—it is what is not in there but which should be in there that I worry about. First, like the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, I am in favour of accountability and that means at least once going back to the electorate for election. In fairness, the Labour Party never had a policy which went down that road. We argued with Jack Straw and some of us hoped that we might be able to persuade the party that it should introduce some accountability because otherwise it makes a mockery of claiming that this is fully legitimate.

Secondly, I come to the infamous Clause 2 and failure of the Bill to address the issue of powers. I am an advocate of broadly maintaining the present relationship between the two Houses. Over time I have been asked about what work the Government were doing on codification of the powers and conventions between the two Houses. I am absolutely surprised that this has gone completely off the agenda and not been mentioned at all. I find this amazing. The last Government knew it had to be done and was starting to look at it but this Government have left it wide open. I hope that the Government will reflect on that carefully because there is no way you can keep the status quo. It was mentioned this morning that over 200 secondary legislation SIs came through the House last year. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, knows himself what you can do with an SI in this House: you can have a fatal vote on an SI and you can change completely a government policy—as indeed Members in this House did on the Gambling Bill when they threw out the SI. When you have elected people in the Chamber, can you leave the freedom for them to do that? In no time you will be in trouble.

My next question is linked to the Parliament Act. Do the Government have in mind using the Parliament Act on a frequent basis? More particularly, do they have in mind the possibility that, as previously when the delaying power was reduced from two years down to one, one of the ways in which they could deal with a problem between the two Houses is to change the delaying power from one year down to nine months, six months or even three months? I would be grateful if the Minister would address that point because it is fairly fundamental. It would be very difficult to put through but, if it went through, it could create an entirely different relationship between the two Houses.

My time is running out. I regret that the Government have not spent any time looking at the issue raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, and others—the quality, calibre and experience of this House. How do you get such expertise through a system which requires selection and election? Many alternatives could be used instead of the present arrangements, which rest with the existing parties, and I am sorry that the Government in being radical—as they are trying to be—have not spent some time looking at that issue to see how we can get nearer to a system of finding people willing to stand for election who are similar to the ones we already have in the House. I hope the Government will look at that issue. I have raised it with the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and I hope that the Joint Committee will be prepared to look at it.

Electoral System: Alternative Vote Referendum

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale]

My Lords—

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Order!

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

Wednesday 19th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I shall be brief. I thank my noble friends for raising the issue. Of course, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, gave the Committee a proper warning about the issue. The announcement was made through the Cabinet Office. We regret that it was not made in Parliament, because it is important. The point that my noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon made about the intention of the Government to legislate in time for the 2015 general election under redrawn boundaries, and perhaps on an alternative vote electoral system, is relevant today. We would like to know the Government’s thinking on these matters. When do they intend to legislate and how will they deal with some of the issues raised by the decision that they have made?

One issue that particularly fascinates me is that of prisoners who have their voting rights denied by sentencing judges. Will they have the right to appeal against the judge's decision? Under the proposals, the judge will have discretion in certain cases. That does not strike me as sensible, or something that judges would want. The amendment asks some questions that the House—

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

It strikes me that it might also be useful if we could have any information that you may have on the amount of research that has been undertaken in this area on the number who are registered. It seems that the problem may not be on quite the scale that some people think, given that earlier we were debating the problems relating to 3.5 million people who are denied votes—I do not want to go over the issue—because they are not registered. If there is any information that could be supplied in this area, it would help us all.

[Lord Bach]

I am grateful to my noble friend. He is quite right. There are a number of questions the Minister can bring us up to date with when he responds on this important amendment. This is a matter that has concentrated the minds of this House a great deal over a long period of time. I think the Committee would like to be brought up to date with how the Government see the relationship between this Bill and giving prisoners the right to vote and how that would be legislated for.

House of Lords: Working Practices

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

Monday 12th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, I begin with a word of thanks to the Front Bench opposite for giving us this debate today, which has proved to be an excellent event. I express my gratitude to the Lord Speaker for her speech to the Hansard Society that acted as a spur for a number of us to come together and work in a variety of ways. I personally thank the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, for leading the small committee of which I had the pleasure and privilege to be a member, which spent much of its time focusing on the issue of how we use our time.

The noble Lord, Lord McNally, will be pleased to hear that I am not indignant today—in fact, quite the opposite. I hope only that he will not be indignant when the noble Lord the Leader announces that we might be looking to work on Tuesday and Wednesday mornings in future; I remind him that when we were members together in the Leader’s Group under Lord Williams of Mostyn, it was the Lib Dems who opposed working on Thursday mornings when we tried to effect that change. I hope that the coalition has sorted itself out on that issue and there will not be any problems between its members. That is an area where, if there are to be changes of that nature, a poll among Members of the House would probably be appropriate.

Most of the issues that I wanted to touch on have already been dealt with in some depth. There is not much, frankly, on which I can add a great deal more. I can, however, introduce something new regarding the Lord Speaker’s role. The sub-committee that I was on recommended modest changes: the powers presently held by the Front Bench should be transferred to the Lord Speaker but without the right of the Lord Speaker to call individuals, merely with the right to indicate which group is to speak. I support that view.

Noble Lords will be interested to hear that during the course of 2009 my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours carried out extensive consultation among Members of the House. The result indicated that 241 were in favour of transferring responsibility from the Front Bench to the Lord Speaker, 58 were against and 18 were neutral on the issue. That was in 2009, and since then we have seen further changes take place. I share the view that Question Time in particular has become rather more unruly than in previous years, and perhaps it is time that we had a look at this. I am pleased to hear that the terms of reference will include a review of the role of the Lord Speaker. I hope that it will be confirmed that they will extend to seeing whether there is a possibility of transferring responsibility from the Front Bench to the Lord Speaker along the lines that I have just described.

I support the view, which has been expressed by my noble friend Lord Rooker in particular, that in areas where we may have worries we should be prepared to embrace trials or experiments for certain periods. I should be grateful if the Minister would respond on whether the Government are willing to run some trials. One issue that we will have to address at some point—it has been the subject of a number of Questions recently—is the appropriateness of post-legislative scrutiny. Again, a growing number are in favour of it, and this House ought to give it a trial and see how we can make it work. If we are looking for candidates for post-legislative scrutiny, my Government’s attempt at a Licensing Act in 2003 might be a worthy candidate for close examination and possible review.

Another topic that came up in the group overseen by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and which has given rise to a number of Questions, particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Cope, is the idea of a Leader’s session. Again, this has some history and some background to it. When we had a Leader’s Group back in 2002-03, the idea came from the then Leader of the House. Lord Williams offered to do a half-hour session on business and any other issues that might arise. That is the source of the recommendation in the paper of the noble Lord, Lord Butler. It is worth reviewing again and I would welcome a comment from the noble Lord, Lord McNally, on this. We had the recent experiment of Secretaries of State taking Questions for half an hour specifically on their areas of departmental responsibility. I think that this was an experiment that ran up to the end of the previous Parliament. I presume that they have now been abandoned. If I have got that wrong, perhaps the Minister will put me right.

An alternative that would help us all would be seriously to consider a Leader’s session of about 20 minutes or half an hour—I would prefer half an hour. I think it would be primarily about the way that business was being run, but additionally it would give Members an opportunity to raise other topics in the Chamber where they see no alternative way to raise such questions under the way that business is presently run. I have been one of those who wanted to raise topics and have invariably ended up with the Chairman of Committees being responsible for trying to reply. Given that he has limited areas of authority, my Questions have had to go back to the government of the day.

We now need to give serious consideration to having a Leader’s session. It would be helpful in terms of business, but more particularly it might release some of the tensions that have been building up and which we have been witnessing during the course of the four Questions each day, when people are increasingly seen to be frustrated at not being able to get their view heard. I hope that the Minister will say whether that will be looked at.

With regard to other issues that we find difficult to raise, it is good to see that the Institute for Government is doing such sterling work. I suggest to those who have some influence within that organisation that they might try to persuade it to give some thought to the following: instead of merely looking at the Commons separately and then maybe looking at activities within the Lords, perhaps there is a case for taking an overall view of the way that the two Houses interrelate in a range of areas. I find it interesting that soon we will be looking to local authorities to find savings in the order of 25 per cent to 30 per cent. I am sure that the Government will be encouraging them to look at closer working relationships with their neighbours in the same way that they have been talking about encouraging the police to work more closely with different areas. Similarly, perhaps there is a case for closer working relationships in the way that we run our business here.

When I first came here, we had separate IT operations for the Commons and the Lords. That set-up was quite impractical for dealing with the way that technology developed. We then had to pass an Act of Parliament to bring the two together and have a combined operation, which was the right thing to do. There is a range of other activities that take place and affect staff and Members in both the Commons and the Lords where, if we are encouraging others in different parts of society to come together, work better and effect efficiencies, there is a case for doing something similar within the Palace of Westminster between the Lords and the Commons. Again, though, there is no mechanism for doing that. I look to outsiders to explore the possibility, or maybe, if we get a Leader’s Question Time and nothing is happening on that front, I will get the opportunity to raise such a Question with him then. At the moment, there is nowhere else where it can be raised.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

I am very grateful. I hope that, from now on, when some people—I will not name them, but we know who they are—start shouting and screaming from those Benches, we can mention that, in the first week in June, the Labour Party had 42 per cent of questions, as against 19 per cent for the Conservatives and 16 per cent for the Liberal Democrats. In the second week, it was 48 per cent for the Labour Party—well done—21 per cent for the Conservatives and 13 per cent for the Liberal Democrats. In the third week, it was 40 per cent for Labour, 19 per cent for the Conservatives and 16 per cent for the Liberal Democrats. In the fourth week, it was 44 per cent for the Labour Party, 18 per cent for the Conservatives and 18 per cent for the Liberal Democrats. I hope that, as this Parliament settles down, we can get away from that Millwall supporters’ attitude.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

Is the noble Lord being indignant?

[Lord McNally]

No, I was just getting to the nice bit of my speech. I just thought that we could get something on the record, especially as there has been so much praise for the Library, which is busy producing statistics for both sides, as it should.

I welcome the assurance from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that the Opposition intend to play a constructive role. We share his approach that the test must be the overall effectiveness of this House. I will return to that. As to how the House will work in the circumstances of the coalition, again, we have to see how things go. It is a different circumstance, but there have been other times when this House has been effective before reform. If people go to the memoirs of the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, they will find that she constantly complained about the defeats that the Government suffered in the House of Lords.