Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Clement-Jones Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Just to follow on from that, I very much support my noble friend’s words. The only reason I can see why you would introduce new definitions is that there are new responsibilities that are different, and you would want people to be aware of the new rules that have been placed on them. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s answer. If that is the case, we can set that out and understand whether the differences are so big that you need a whole new category, as my noble friend said.

Having run lots of small businesses myself, I am aware that, with every new definition that you add, you add a whole new set of rules and complications. As a business owner, how am I going to find out what applies to me and how I am to be responsible? The terms trader, controller, data holder and processor all sound fairly similar, so how will I understand what applies to me and what does not? To the other point that my noble friend made, the more confusing it gets, the less likelihood there is that people will understand the process.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I am not sure whether I should open by saying that it is a pleasure to take part in the passage of the third iteration of this Bill, but, as I said at Second Reading, this is an improvement. Nevertheless, there are aspects of the Bill that need close scrutiny.

The noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, explained his approach to this Bill. Our approach is that we very much support the use of data for public benefit but, at the same time, we want to make sure that this Bill does not water down individual data rights and that they are, where necessary, strengthened. In that spirit, I wish to ask the Minister about the general nature of Clause 1, rather than following up on the amendments tabled by the noble Viscount.

The definition of “business data” seems quite general. A report that came out yesterday, Data On Our Minds: Affective Computing At Work, highlighted the kinds of data that are now being collected in the workplace. It is a piece of work sponsored by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust, the Trust for London and the Institute for the Future of Work. They are concerned about the definition of “business data”. The Minister probably will not have an answer on this matter at this stage but it would be useful if she could write in due course to say whether the definition of excludes emotional data and neurosurveillance data collected from employees.

This is very much a workplace question rather than a question about the customer; I could ask the same question about the customer, I suppose, except the report is about workplace data collection. I thought I would opportunistically take advantage of the rather heavy de-grouping that has taken place and ask the Minister a question.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Information and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)]

First, let me say what a pleasure it is to be back on this old ground again, although with slightly different functions this time round. I very much support what the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, said. We want to get the wording of this Bill right and to have a robust Bill; that is absolutely in our interests. We are on the same territory here. I thank the noble Viscount and other noble Lords for expressing their interest.

On Amendments 1 and 2, the Government consider the terms used in Part 1, as outlined in Clause 1, necessary to frame the persons and the data to which a scheme will apply. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned the powers. I assure him that the powers in Part 1 sit on top of the Data Protection Act. They are not there instead of it; they are another layer on top of it, and they provide additional rights over and above what already exists.

In relation to the specific questions from the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, and the noble Lord, Lord Markham, smart data schemes require suppliers or providers of goods, services or digital content to provide data. They are referred to as “traders” in accordance with recent consumer legislation, including the Consumer Rights Act 2015. The term “data holder” ensures that the requirements may also be imposed on any third party that might hold the data on the trader’s behalf. That is why these additional terminologies have been included: it is based on existing good legislation. I hope noble Lords will recognise why this is necessary and that this explains the rationale for these terms. These terms are independent of terms in data protection legislation; they have a different scope and that is why separate terms are necessary. I hope that, on that basis, the noble Viscount will withdraw his amendment.

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[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, I would like to say a few things about this. The first is that Amendment 5, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is very sensible; sometimes the GDPR has gone too far in trying to block what you can use things for. It was originally thought of when so much spamming was going on, with people gathering data from adverts and all sorts of other things and then misusing it for other purposes. People got fed up with the level of spam. This is not about that sort of thing; it is about having useful data that would help people in the future, and which they would not mind being used for other purposes. As long as it is done properly and seriously, and not for marketing, advertising and all those other things, and for something which is useful to people, I cannot see what the problem is. An overzealous use of GDPR, which has happened from time to time, has made it very difficult to use something perfectly sensible, which people would not mind having other people know about when it is being useful.

The next matter is sex, which is an interesting issue. The noble Lord is absolutely correct that biological or genetic sex is vital when applying medicines and various other things. You have to know that you are administering certain drugs properly. As we get more and more new drugs coming on, it will matter how a person’s body will react to them, which will depend on the genetic material, effectively. Therefore, it is essential to know what the biological sex is. The answer is that we need another category—probably “current gender”—alongside “sex at birth”. Someone can then decide to use “current gender” for certain purposes, including for such things as passports and driving licences, where people do not want to be asked questions—“Oh, do you mean you’re not?”—because they look completely different.

I remember meeting April Ashley in her restaurant. I would not, in my innocence—I was quite young—have guessed that she was not a woman, except that someone said that her hands were very big. It never worried us in those days. I am not worried about people using a different gender, but the basic underlying truth is essential. It comes into the issue of sport. If you have grown up and developed physically as a biological male, your bone structure and strength are likely to be different from that of a female. There are huge issues with that, and we need to know both; people can decide which to use at certain points. Having both would give you the flexibility to do that.

That also applies to Amendment 200, from the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, which is exactly the same concept. I thoroughly agree with those amendments and think we should push them forward.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I too am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, came in to move his amendment. He is the expert in that whole area of education data; like the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, I found what he said extremely persuasive.

I need to declare an interest as chair of the council of Queen Mary, University of London, in the context of Amendment 5 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. I must say, if use were made of that data, it would benefit not only students but universities. I am sure that the Minister will take that seriously but, on the face of it, like the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, I cannot see any reason why this amendment should not be adopted.

I very much support Amendments 34 and 48 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot. I too have read the briefing from Sex Matters. The noble Lord’s pursuit of accuracy for the records that will be part of the wallet, if you like, to be created for these digital verification services is a matter of considerable importance. In reading the Sex Matters briefing, I was quite surprised. I had not realised that it is possible to change your stated sex on your passport in the way that has taken place. The noble Lord referred to the more than 3,000 cases of this; for driving licences, there have been more than 15,000.

I agree with Sex Matters when it says that this could lead to a loss of trust in the system. However, I also agree with the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, that this is not an either/or. It could be both. It is perfectly feasible to have both on your passport, if you so choose. I do not see this as a great divide as long as the statement about sex is accurate because, for a great many reasons—not least in healthcare—it is of considerable importance that the statement about one’s sex is accurate.

I looked back at what the Minister said at Second Reading. I admit that I did not find it too clear but I hope that, even if she cannot accept these amendments, she will be able to give an assurance that, under this scheme—after all, it is pretty skeletal; we will come on to some amendments that try to flesh it out somewhat—the information on which it will be based is accurate. That must be a fundamental underlying principle. We should thank the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, for tabling these two important amendments in that respect.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, I want to come in on Amendment 5. Although I am very much in favour of the intent of what we are trying to do—making more use of the sharing of data—I have to remember my old Health Minister’s hat in talking about all the different terms and speaking to the different angles that we are all coming from.

Noble Lords have heard me speak many a time about the value of our health data and the tremendous possibilities that it offers for drug discovery and all the associated benefits. At the same time, I was very aware of loads of companies purporting to own it. There are GP data companies, which do the systems for GPs and, naturally, hold all the patient data in them. In terms of their business plans, some have been bought for vast sums of money because of the data that they hold. My concern is that, although it is well intended to say that the use of health data should be allowed for the general good, at the same time, I do not believe that GP companies own that data. We have been quite clear on that. I want to make it clear that it is actually the NHS that will benefit from the pulling together of all this, if that happens in those sorts of formats.

Similarly on student loans data—I shall not pretend that this is a subject I know a lot about—I can see a lot of good causes for the student loans, but I can also see that it would be very useful for financial services companies to understand customers’ creditworthiness. In all these cases, although the intent is right, we need to find a way to be clear about what they can and cannot use it for, and there lies a lot of complexity.

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[Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 7, the first in this group is a probing amendment and I am extremely grateful to ISACA, an international professional association focused on IT governance, for drafting it. This amendment

“would give the Secretary of State or the Treasury scope to introduce requirements on third party recipients of customer data to publish regular statements on their cyber resilience against specified standards and outcomes”.

Third parties play a vital role in the modern digital ecosystem, providing businesses with advanced technology, specialised expertise and a wide range of services, but integrating third parties into business operations comes with cyber risks. Their access to critical networks and all the rest of it can create vulnerabilities that cyber- criminals exploit. Third parties are often seen as easier targets, with weaker security measures or indirect connections serving as gateways to larger organisations.

Further consideration is to be given to the most effective means of driving the required improvements in cyber risk management, including, in my suggestion, making certain guidance statutory. This is not about regulating and imposing additional cost burdens, but rather creating the environment for digital trust and growth in the UK economy, as well as creating the right conditions for the sustainable use of emerging technologies that will benefit us all. This is something that leading associations and groups such as ISACA have been arguing for.

The Cyber Governance Code of Practice, which the previous Administration introduced, marks an important step towards improving how organisations approach cybersecurity. Its primary goal is to ensure that boards of directors should take their proper responsibility in mitigating cyber risks.

While that code is a positive development, compliance is not legally required, which leaves organisations to decide whether to put their priorities elsewhere. As a result, the code’s effectiveness in driving widespread improvements in cyber resilience will largely depend on their organisation’s willingness to recognise its importance. The amendment would require businesses regularly to review and update their cybersecurity strategies and controls, and to stay responsive to evolving threats and technologies, thereby fostering a culture of continuous improvement. In addition, by mandating ongoing assessments of internal controls and risk-management processes, organisations will be better able to anticipate emerging threats and enhance their ability to detect, prevent and respond to cyber incidents. I beg to move.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, this is a fairly disparate group of amendments. I am speaking to Amendments 8, 9, 10, 24, 30, 31 and 32. In the first instance, Amendments 8, 9, 10 and 30 relate to the question that I asked at Second Reading: where is the ambition to use the Bill to encourage data sharing to support net zero?

The clean heat market mechanism, designed to create a market incentive to grow the number of heat pumps installed in existing premises each year, is set to be introduced after being delayed a year due to backlash from the boiler industry. If government departments and partners had access to sales data of heating appliances, there would be a more transparent and open process for setting effective and realistic targets.

I have been briefed by Ambient, a not-for-profit organisation in this field. It says that low visibility of high power-consuming assets makes it challenging to maintain grid stability in a clean-power world. Low visibility and influence over future installations of high power-consuming assets make it difficult to plan for grid updates. Inability to shift peak electricity demand leads to higher capacity requirements with associated time and cost implications. Giving the Government and associated bodies access to utility-flexible tariff data would enable the Government and utilities to work together to increase availability and uptake of tariffs, leading to lower peak electricity demand requirements.

Knowing which homes have the oldest and least efficient boilers, and giving public sector and partners access to the Gas Safe Register and CORGI data on boiler age at household level, would mean that they could identify and target households and regions, ensuring that available funds go to those most in need. Lack of clarity on future clean heating demand makes it challenging for the industry to scale and create jobs, and to assess workforce needs for growing electricity demand. Better demand forecasting through access to sales data on low-carbon heating appliances would signal when and where electrification was creating need for workforce expansion in grid management and upgrade, as well as identify regional demand for installers and technicians.

The provisions of Part 1 of the Bill contain powers for the Secretary of State to require the sharing of business data to customers and other people of specified description. It does not indicate, however, that persons of specified description could include actors such as government departments, public bodies such as NISO and GB Energy, and Ministers. An expanded list of suggested recipients could overcome this issue, as stated in Amendment 9 in my name. It makes no provision for the format of information sharing—hence, my Amendments 8 and 10.

In summary, my questions to the Minister are therefore on: whether it has been considered how the primary legislation outlined in the Bill could be exercised to accelerate progress towards clean power by 2030; whether climate missions such as clean power by 2030 or achieving net zero are purposes “of a public nature” in relation to the outline provisions for public bodies; and whether specifying the format of shared business data would enable more efficient and collaborative use of data for research and planning purposes.

Coming on to Amendments 24, 31 and 32, the Bill expands the potential use of smart data to additional public and private sector entities, but it lacks safeguards for sensitive information regularly used in court. It makes specific provision for legal privilege earlier in the Bill, but this is not extended in provisions relating to smart data. I very much hope that the Government will commit to consult with legal professions before extending smart data to courts.

Many of us support open banking, but open banking is being used, as designed, by landlords to keep watching tenant bank accounts for months after approving their tenancy. Open banking was set up to enhance inter- operability between finance providers, with the most obvious example being the recent new ability of the iPhone wallet app to display balances and recent transactions from various bank accounts.

Open banking approval normally lasts six months. While individual landlords may not choose this access, if given a free choice, the service industry providing the tenant-checking service to landlords is strongly incentivised to maximise such access, otherwise their competitors have a selling point. If open banking is to be added to the statute book, the Bill should mandate that the default time be reduced to no more than 24 hours in the first instance, and reconfirmed much more often. For most one-off approval processes, these access times may be as short as minutes and the regulations should account for that.

Coming on to Amendment 31, consumers have mixed feelings about the potential benefits to them of smart data schemes, as shown in polling such as that carried out a couple of years ago by Deltapoll with the CDEI, now the Responsible Technology Adoption Unit, as regards the perceived potential risks versus the benefits. Approximately one-quarter of respondents in each case were unsure about this trade-off. Perhaps unsurprisingly, individuals who said that they trusted banks and financial institutions or telecommunications providers were more likely to support open finance and open communications, and customers who had previous experience of switching services more frequently reported believing that the benefits of smart data outweighed the risks.

Is it therefore the Government’s expectation that people should be compelled to use these services? Open banking and imitators can do a great deal of good but can also give easy access to highly sensitive data for long periods. The new clause introduced by Amendment 31 would make it the same criminal offence to compel unnecessary access under these new provisions as it already is to compel data provision via subject access requests under the existing Data Protection Act.

Amendment 32 is a probing amendment as to the Government’s intentions regarding these new smart data provisions. In the Minister’s letter of 27 November, she said:

“The Government is working closely to identify areas where smart data schemes might be able to bring benefits. We want to build on the lessons learned from open banking and establish smart data schemes in other markets for goods and services.”


I very much hope that the Minister will be able to give us a little taste of what she thinks these powers are going to be used for, and in what sectors the Government believe that business can take advantage of these provisions.

[Baroness Neville-Jones (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 7 introduced by my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot, for the reasons that he gave. The amendment was designed to have the effect of increasing the reliability and handling of information inside any system. If, as I would certainly support, we want to see information and data in digital form circulated more readily, more freely and more often, it is very important that people should trust the system within which it happens. That is where the need to assure the cybersecurity of the system becomes very important and is a companion note to this Bill.

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I hope that by going through the detail of the large number of amendments I have provided reassurance to noble Lords on these amendments, as well as on why we feel that the inclusion of Clause 13 is necessary. I therefore hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

Does the Minister have any thoughts about where smart data schemes might be introduced? I am sure that they are being introduced for a purpose. Is there a plan to issue a policy document or is it purely about consulting different sectors? Perhaps the Minister can give us a glimpse of the future.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord is tempting me. What I would say is that, once this legislation is passed, it will encourage departments to look in detail at where they think smart data schemes can be applied and provide a useful service for customers and businesses alike. I know that one issue that has been talked about is providing citizens with greater information about their energy supplies—the way that is being used and whether they can use their energy differently or find a different supplier—but that is only one example, and I do not want people to get fixated on it.

The potential is enormous; I feel that we need to encourage people to think creatively about how some of these provisions can be used when the Bill is finally agreed. There is a lot of cross-government thinking at the moment and a lot of considering how we can empower citizens more. I could say a lot off the top of my head but putting it on the record in Hansard would probably be a mistake, so I will not be tempted any more by the noble Lord. I am sure that he can write to me with some suggestions, if he has any.

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Moved by

[Lord Clement-Jones]

33: Clause 28, page 30, line 28, at end insert—
“(2A) Those rules must include processes for ongoing monitoring of compliance, including but not limited to processes and procedures for monitoring and investigating compliance.(2B) The rules must contain mechanisms for redress for harms caused by compliance failures.(2C) The Secretary of State must establish an independent process for hearing appeals against the findings of compliance investigations.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment specifies additional rules for the trust framework.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I almost have a full house in this group, apart from Amendment 35, so I will not read out the numbers of all the amendments in this group. I should just say that I very much support what the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, has put forward in his Amendment 35.

Many noble Lords will have read the ninth report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I am sad to say that it holds exactly the same view about this Bill as it did about the previous Bill’s provisions regarding digital verification services. It said that

“we remain of the view that the power conferred by clause 28 should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny, with the affirmative procedure providing the appropriate level of scrutiny”.

It is against that backdrop that I put forward a number of these amendments. I am concerned that, although the Secretary of State is made responsible for this framework, in reality, they cannot be accountable for delivering effective governance in any meaningful way. I have tried, through these amendments, to introduce at least some form of appropriate governance.

Of course, these digital verification provisions are long-awaited—the Age Verification Providers Association is pleased to see them introduced—but we need much greater clarity. How is the Home Office compliant with Part 2 of the Bill as it is currently written? How will these digital verification services be managed by DSIT? How will they interoperate with the digital identity verification services being offered by DSIT in the UK Government’s One Login programme?

Governance, accountability and effective, independent regulation are also missing. There is no mechanism for monitoring compliance, investigating malicious actors or taking enforcement action regarding these services. The Bill has no mechanism for ongoing monitoring or the investigation of compliance failures. The Government propose to rely on periodic certification being sufficient but I understand that, when pressed, DSIT officials say that they are talking to certification bodies and regulators about how they can do so. This is not really sufficient. I very much share the intention of both this Government and the previous one to create a market in digital verification services, but the many good players in this marketplace believe that high levels of trust in the sector depend on a high level of assurance and focus from the governance point of view. That is missing in this part of the Bill.

Amendment 33 recognises the fact that the Bill has no mechanism for ongoing monitoring or the investigation of compliance failures. As we have seen from the Grenfell public inquiry, a failure of governance caused by not proactively monitoring, checking and challenging compliance has real, harmful consequences. Digital verification services rely on the trustworthiness of the governance model; what is proposed is not trustworthy but creates material risk for UK citizens and parties who rely on the system.

There are perfectly decent examples of regulatory frameworks. PhonepayPlus provides one such example, with a panel of three experts supported by a secretariat; the panel can meet once a quarter to give its opinion. That has been dismissed as being too expensive, but I do not believe that any costings have been produced or that it has been considered how such a cost would weigh against the consequences of a failure in governance of the kind identified in recent public inquiries.

Again, as regards Amendment 36, there is no mechanism in the Bill whereby accountability is clearly established in a meaningful way. Accountability is critical if relying parties and end-users are to have confidence that their interests are safeguarded.

Amendment 38 is linked to Amendment 36. The review under Clause 31 must be meaningful in improving accountability and effective governance. The amendment proposes that the review must include performance, specifically against the five-year strategy and of the compliance, monitoring and investigating mechanisms. We would also like to see the Secretary of State held accountable by the Science and Technology Select Committee for the performance captured in the review.

On Amendment 41, the Bill is silent on how the Secretary of State will determine that there is a compliance failure. It is critical to have some independence and professional rigour included here; the independent appeals process is really crucial.

As regards Amendments 42 and 43, recent public inquiries serve to illustrate the importance of effective governance. Good practice for effective governance would require the involvement of an independent body in the determination of compliance decisions. There does not appear to be an investigatory resource or expertise within DSIT, and the Bill currently fails to include requirements for investigatory processes or appeals. In effect, there is no check on the authority of the Secretary of State in that context, as well as no requirement for the Secretary of State proactively to monitor and challenge stakeholders on compliance.

As regards Amendment 44, there needs to be a process or procedure for that; fairness requires that there should be a due process of investigation, a review of evidence and a right of appeal to an independent body.

I turn to Amendment 45 on effective governance. A decision by the appeals body that a compliance failure is so severe that removal from the register is a proportionate measure must be binding on the Secretary of State, otherwise there is a risk of lobbying and investment in compliance and service improvement being relegated below that of investment in lobbying. Malicious actors view weaknesses in enforcement as a green light and so adopt behaviours that both put at risk the safety and security of UK citizens and undermine the potential of trustworthy digital verification to drive economic growth.

Amendment 39 would exclude powers in this part being used by government as part of GOV.UK’s One Login.

I come on to something rather different in Amendment 46, which is very much supported by Big Brother Watch, the Digital Poverty Alliance and Age UK. Its theme was raised at Second Reading. A significant proportion of the UK’s population lacks internet access, with this issue disproportionately affecting older adults, children and those from low-income backgrounds. This form of digital exclusion presents challenges in an increasingly digital world, particularly concerning identity verification.

Although digital identity verification can be beneficial, it poses difficulty for individuals who cannot or choose not to engage digitally. Mandating online identity verification can create barriers for digitally excluded groups. For example, the National Audit Office found that only 20% of universal credit applicants could verify their identity online, highlighting concerns for those with limited digital skills. The Lords Communications and Digital Select Committee emphasised the need for accessible, offline alternatives to ensure inclusivity in a connected world. The proponents of this amendment advocate the availability of offline options for essential public and private services, particularly those requiring identity verification. This is crucial as forcing digital engagement can negatively impact the well-being and societal participation of older people.

This is the first time that I have prayed in aid what the Minister said during the passage of the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill; this could be the first of a few such occasions. When we debated the DPDI Bill, she stressed the importance of a legal right to choose between digital and non-digital identity verification methods. I entirely agreed with her at the time. She said that this right is vital for individual liberty, equality and building trust in digital identity systems and that, ultimately, such systems should empower individuals with choices rather than enforce digital compliance. That is a fair summary of what she said at the time.

I turn to Amendment 50. In the context of Clause 45 and the power of public authorities to disclose information, some of which may be the most sensitive information, it is important for the Secretary of State to be able to require the public authority to provide information on what data is being disclosed and where the data is going, as well as why the data is going there. This amendment will ensure that data is being disclosed for the right reasons, to the right places and in the right proportion. I beg to move.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

My Lords, I tabled Amendment 35 because I want to make the DVS trust framework as useful as possible. I support Amendment 33 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and Amendment 37 in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose.

The framework’s mandate is to define a set of rules and standards designed to establish trust in digital identity products in the UK. It is what I would hope for as a provision in this Bill. As the Minister told us at Second Reading, the establishment of digital ID services with a trust mark will increase faith in the digital market and reduce physical checks—not to mention reducing the time spent on a range of activities, from hiring new workers to moving house. I and many other noble Lords surely welcome the consequent reduction in red tape, which so often impedes the effectiveness of our public services.

Clause 28(3) asks the Secretary of State to consult the Information Commissioner and such persons as they consider appropriate. However, in order to ensure that these digital ID services are used and recognised as widely as possible—and, more importantly, that they can be used by organisations beyond our borders— I suggest Amendment 35, which would include putting consultation with an international digital standards body in the Bill. This amendment is supported by the Open Data Institute.

I am sure that the Minister will tell me that that amendment is unnecessary as we can leave it to the common sense of Ministers and civil servants in DSIT to consult such a body but, in my view, it is helpful to remind them that Parliament thinks the consultation of an international standards body is important. The international acceptance of DVS is crucial to its success. Just like an email, somebody’s digital identity should not be tied to a company or a sector. Imagine how frustrating it would be if we could only get Gmail in the UK and Outlook in the EU. Imagine if, in a world of national borders and jurisdictions, you could not send emails between the UK and the EU as a result. Although the DVS will work brilliantly to break down digital identity barriers in the UK, there is a risk that no international standards body might be consulted in the development of the DVS scheme. This amendment would be a reminder to the Secretary of State that there must be collaboration between this country, the EU and other nations, such as Commonwealth countries, that are in the process of developing similar schemes.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I will, of course, write to the noble Baroness.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

Was the Minister saying that in view of the current duties of the ICO, Amendment 50 is not needed because public authorities will have the duty to inform the ICO of the information that they have been passing across to these identity services?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

Again, I will have to write to the noble Lord on that. I think we were saying that it is outside the current obligations of the ICO, but we will clarify the responsibility.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I am not quite sure whether to be reassured or not because this is terra incognita. I am really struggling, given the Minister’s response. This is kind of saying, “Hands off, Parliament, we want the lightest touch on all of this, and the Secretary of State will decide”.

I should first thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for her support. I thought that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, made an extremely good case for Amendment 35 because all of us want to make sure that we have that interoperability. One of the few areas where I was reassured by the Minister was on the consultations taking place.

I am sure that the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, was right to ask what the consultations are. We need to be swimming in the right pool for our digital services to be interoperable. It is not as if we do not have contact with quite a number of these digital service providers. Some of them are extremely good and want a level of mandation for these international services. There is a worrying lack of detail here. We have devil and the deep blue sea. We have these rules on GOV.UK which are far too complicated for mere parliamentarians to comprehend. They are so detailed that we are going to get bogged down.

On the other hand, we do not know what the Secretary of State is doing. This is the detailed trust framework, but what is the governance around it? At the beginning of her speech, the Minister said that governance is different from certification and the conformity assessment service. I would have thought that governance was all part of the same warp and weft. I do not really understand. The Secretary of State has the power to refuse accreditation, so we do not need an independent appeals body. It would be much more straightforward if we knew that there was a regulator and that it was going to be transparent in terms of how the system worked. I just feel that this is all rather half baked at the moment. We need a lot more information than we are getting. To that extent, that is the case for all the amendments in this group.

The crucial amendment is Amendment 37 tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, because we absolutely need to bring all this into the light of day by parliamentary approval, whether or not it is a complicated document. Perhaps we could put it through an AI model and simplify it somewhat before we debate it. We have to get to grips with this. I have a feeling that we are going to want to return to this aspect on Report because no good reason has been given, not to the DPRRC either, about why we are not debating this in Parliament in terms of the scheme itself. It is a bit sad to have to say this because we all support the digital verification progress, if you like. Yet, we are all in a bit of a fog about how it is all going to work.

I very much hope that the Minister can come back to us, perhaps with a must-write letter that sets it all out to a much more satisfactory extent. I hope she understands why we have had this fairly protracted debate on this group of amendments because this is an important aspect that the Bill is skeletal about. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 33 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Clement-Jones]

51: Clause 50, page 46, line 19, at end insert—
“(3A) A person who acts in contravention of subsection (3) commits an offence.(3B) A person who commits an offence under subsection (3A) is liable—(a) on summary conviction to a fine; or(b) on conviction on indictment to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 2 years or to a fine or both.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes it an offence for someone to use a trust mark when they have no permission to do so, aimed to weed out fraud.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 51, I will also speak to Amendments 52, 53, 54 and 209 in my name, which seek to create new criminal offences under the Bill. The first is the offence of using a trust mark without permission; the second is providing false information to the Secretary of State in response to an information notice; and the third is using a false digital identity document, which is really an alternative to digital identity theft.

Clause 50 currently contains no real consequence for a person using a trust mark without permission. A trust mark, which has no specific definition in the Bill, may be used only by those who are in the DVS register. Clause 50(3) says:

“A mark designated under this section may not be used by a person in the course of providing, or offering to provide, digital verification services unless the person is registered in the DVS register in respect of those digital verification services”.


Clause 50(4) then says:

“The Secretary of State may enforce subsection (3)”


by civil injunction or interdict. This has no real teeth in circumstances where there are persistent and flagrant offenders, regardless of whether it is on a personal or commercial scale.

Amendment 51 would give appropriate penalties, with a fine on summary conviction and two years’ imprisonment, or a fine on indictment. Amendment 52 would make provision so that a prosecution may not be brought unless by or with the consent of the appropriate chief prosecutor. Amendment 54 relates to providing false information to the Secretary of State. That is advanced on a similar basis, containing a power for the Secretary of State to require information. Of course, many regulators have this power.

On the issue of false digital identities—identity theft —Amendment 53 is a refinement of the Amendment 289 which I tabled to the late, unlamented DPDI Bill in Committee. That amendment was entitled “Digital identity theft”. I have also retabled the original amendment, but in many ways Amendment 53 is preferable because it is much more closely aligned to the Identity Documents Act, which contains several offences that relate to the use of a person’s identity document. Currently, an identity document includes an immigration document—a passport or similar document—or a driving licence.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister. I was quite amused in listening to the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose. I thought about the halcyon days of listening to the language that he used when he was a Minister, with words like “premature”, “unintended consequences”, “disproportionate” and “ambiguity”. I thought, “Come back, Viscount Camrose”—but I appreciate that he took the trouble at least to analyse, from his point of view, where he saw the problems with some of the amendments.

I go back to the physical identity verification aspect. I should have said that I very much hope that the Minister and I can discuss how the Equality Act 2010 has an impact. I am not entirely sure about the protected characteristics playing into this because, obviously, the Equality Act only references those. I think that there could be a greater cohort of people who may be disadvantaged by commercial operators insisting on digital verification, as opposed to physical verification, for instance; I may need to discuss that with the Minister.

I am grateful to the Minister for having gone through where she thinks that there are safeguards and sanctions against using trust identity falsely; that was a very helpful run-through so I shall not go back to what she said. The really important area is this whole offline/online criminal aspect. I understand that it may not be perfect because the scheme is not in place—it may not need to be on all fours exactly with the 2010 Act—but I think that the Minister’s brief was incorrect in this respect. If the Bill team look back at the report from the committee that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, chaired back in 2022, Fighting Fraud: Breaking the Chain, they will see that it clearly said:

“Identity theft is often a predicate action to the criminal offence of fraud, as well as other offences including organised crime and terrorism, but it is not a criminal offence”.


That is pretty clear. The committee went into this in considerable detail and said:

“The Government should consult on the introduction of legislation to create a specific criminal offence of identity theft. Alternatively, the Sentencing Council should consider including identity theft as a serious aggravating factor in cases of fraud”.


First, I am going to set the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, on the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, to persuade him of the wisdom of creating a new offence. I urge the Minister to think about the consequences of not having any criminal sanction for misuse of digital and identity theft. Whatever you might call it, there must be some way to protect people in these circumstances, if we are going to have public trust in the physical verification framework that we are setting up under this Bill. This will be rolled out—if only I had read GOV.UK, I would be far wiser.

It was very interesting to hear the Minister start to unpack quite a lot of detail. We heard about the new regulator, the Office for Digital Identities and Attributes. That was the first reference to the new regulator, but what are its powers going to be? We need a parliamentary debate on this, clearly. Is this an office delegated by the Secretary of State? Presumably, it is non-statutory, in a sense, and will have powers that are at the will of the Secretary of State. It will be within DSIT, I assume—and so on.

I am afraid that we are going round in circles here. We need to know a great deal more. I hope that we get much more protection for those who have the benefit of the service; otherwise, we will find ourselves in a situation that we are often in as regards the digital world, whereby there is a lack of trust and the public react against what they perceive as somebody taking something away from them. In the health service, for example, 3 million people have opted out from sharing their GP personal health data. I am only saying that we need to be careful in this area and to make sure that we have all the right protections in place. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 51 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Clement-Jones]

56: After Clause 60, insert the following new Clause—
“Private sector consultation regarding NUARThe Secretary of State must consult with relevant private sector organisations before implementing the provisions regarding the National Underground Asset Register.”Member’s explanatory statement
This is a probing amendment to determine the level of Government consultation with the private sector regarding NUAR.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, successive Governments have demonstrated their enthusiasm for NUAR. It was quite interesting to hear the Minister’s enthusiasm for the digitisation of the map of the Underground, so to speak; she was no less enthusiastic than her predecessor. However, as the Minister knows, there are tensions between them—the new, bright, shiny NUAR—and LSBUD, or LinesearchbeforeUdig, which in some respects is the incumbent.

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[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for these amendments. Amendment 46 is about NUAR and the requirement to perform consultation first. I am not convinced that is necessary because it is already a requirement to consult under Clause 60 and, perhaps more pertinently, NUAR is an industry-led initiative. It came out of an industry meeting and has been led by them throughout. I am therefore not sure, even in spite of the requirement to consult, that much is going to come out of that consultation exercise.

In respect of other providers out there, LSBUD among them, when we were going through this exact debate in DPDI days, the offer I made—and I ask the Minister if she would consider doing the same—was to arrange a demonstration of NUAR to anyone who had not seen it. I have absolutely unshakeable confidence that anybody who sees NUAR in action will not want anything else. I am not a betting man, but—

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

For the record, the noble Viscount is getting a vigorous nod from the Minister.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Viscount for joining me in my enthusiasm for NUAR. He is right: having seen it in practice, I am a great enthusiast for it. If it is possible to demonstrate it to other people, I would be very happy to do so, because it is quite a compelling story when you see it in practice.

Amendment 56, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, would place a duty on the Secretary of State to consult relevant private sector organisations before implementing the NUAR provisions under the Bill. I want to make clear then that the Geospatial Commission, which oversees NUAR, has been engaging with stakeholders on NUAR since 2018. Since then, there have been extensive reviews of existing processes and data exchange services. That includes a call for evidence, a pilot project, public consultation and numerous workshops. A series of in-person focus groups were completed last week and officials have visited commercial companies with specific concerns, including LinesearchbeforeUdig, so there has been extensive consultation with them.

I suppose one can understand why they feel slightly put out about NUAR appearing on the scene, but NUAR is a huge public asset that we should celebrate. We can potentially use it in other ways for other services in the future, once it is established, and we should celebrate the fact that we have managed to create it as a public asset. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that a further consultation on that basis would provide no additional benefit but would delay the realisation of the significant benefits that NUAR could deliver.

Moving on to the noble Lord’s other amendments, Amendments 193, 194, and 195, he is absolutely right about the need for data interoperability in the health service. We can all think of examples of where that would be of benefit to patients and citizens. It is also true that we absolutely need to ensure that our health and care system is supported by robust information standards. Again, we go back to the issue of trust: people need to know that those protections are there.

This is why we would ensure, through Clause 119 and Schedule 15, that suppliers of IT products and services used in the provision of health or adult social care in England are required to meet relevant information standards. In doing so, we can ensure that IT suppliers are held to account where information standards are not implemented. The application of information standards is independent of commercial organisations, and we would hold IT companies to them. Furthermore, the definition of healthcare as set out in the Health and Social Care Act 2012, as amended by the Health and Care Act 2022, already ensures that all forms of healthcare are within scope of information standards, which would include primary care. That was one of the other points that the noble Lord made.

As an add-on to this whole discussion, the noble Lord will know that the Government are preparing the idea of a national data library, which would encourage further interoperability between government departments to make sure that we use it to improve services. Health and social care is the obvious one, but the members of the Committee can all think of all sorts of other ways where government departments, if they collaborated on an interoperable basis, could drive up standards and make life easier for a whole lot of citizens in different ways. We are on the case and are absolutely determined to deliver it. I hope that, on that basis, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but she has whetted our appetite about the national data library. It is not included in the Bill. We talked about it a little at Second Reading, but I wonder whether she can tell us a little more about what is planned. Is it to be set up on a statutory basis or is it a shadow thing? What substance will it actually have and how?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

Well, details of it were in our manifesto, in as much as a manifesto is ever detailed. It is a commitment to deliver cross-departmental government services and create a means whereby some of the GDPR blockages that stop one department speaking to another can, where necessary, be freed up to make sure that people exchange data in a more positive way to improve services. There will be more details coming out. It is a work in progress at the moment and may well require some legislation to underpin it. There is an awful lot of work to be done in making sure that one dataset can talk to another before we can progress in any major way, but we are working at speed to try to get this new system up and running.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that, which was very interesting. We were talking about medical health IT and “GDPR blockages” almost has a medical quality to it. The embryonic national data library will obviously get some more mentions as we go through the Bill. It is a work in progress, so I hope that we will know more at the end of the Bill than we did at the beginning.

The Minister talked about datasets talking to each other. We will have to get the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, to use other phrases, not just “Netflix in the age of Blockbuster” but something equally exciting about datasets talking to each other.

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Moved by

[Lord Clement-Jones]

58: After Clause 64, insert the following new Clause—
“Review of notification of changes of circumstances legislation(1) The Secretary of State must commission a review of the operation of the Social Security (Notification of Changes of Circumstances) Regulations 2010.(2) In conducting the review, the designated reviewer must -(a) consider the current operation and effectiveness of the legislation (b) identify any gaps in its operations and provisions(c) consider and publish recommendations as to how the scope of the legislation could be expanded to include non-public sector, voluntary and private sector holders of personal data.(3) In undertaking the review, the reviewer must consult -(a) specialists in data sharing(b) people and organisations who campaign for the interests of people affected by, and use the legislation(c) any other persons and organisations the review considers appropriate.(4) The Secretary of State must lay a report of the review before each House of Parliament within six months of this Act coming into force.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment requires a review of the operation of the ‘Tell Us Once’ programme—which seeks to provide simpler mechanisms for citizens to pass information regarding births and deaths to government—and consider whether the pioneering progress of Tell Us Once could be extended to non-public sector holders of data.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, of course I welcome the fact that the Bill will enable people to register a death in person and online, which was a key recommendation from the UK Commission on Bereavement. I have been asked to table this amendment by Marie Curie; it is designed to achieve improvements to UK bereavement support services, highlighting the significant administrative burden faced by bereaved individuals.

Marie Curie points to the need for a review of the existing Tell Us Once service and the creation of a universal priority service register to streamline death-related notifications across government and private sectors. It argued that the Bill presents an opportunity to address these issues through improved data-sharing and online death registration. Significant statistics illustrate the scale of the problem, showing a large percentage of bereaved people struggling with numerous administrative tasks. It urges the Government, as I do, to commit to implementing those changes to reduce the burden on bereaved families.

Bereaved people face many practical and administrative responsibilities and tasks after a death, which are often both complex and time sensitive. This Bill presents an opportunity to improve the way in which information is shared between different public and private service providers, reducing the burden of death administration.

When someone dies, the Tell Us Once service informs the various parts of national and local government that need to know. That means the local council stops charging council tax, the DVLA cancels the driving licence, the Passport Office cancels the passport, et cetera. Unfortunately, Tell Us Once is currently not working across all Government departments and does not apply to Northern Ireland. No updated equality impact assessment has ever been undertaken. While there are death notification services in the private sector, they are severely limited by not being a public service programme—and, as a result, there are user costs associated, adding to bereaved people’s financial burden and penalising the most struggling families. There is low public awareness and take-up among all these services, as well as variable and inconsistent provision by the different companies. The fact that there is not one service for all public and private sector notifications means that dealing with the deceased’s affairs is still a long and painful process.

The Bill should be amended to require Ministers to carry out a review into the current operation and effectiveness of the Tell Us Once service, to identify any gaps in its operation and provisions and make recommendations as to how the scope of the service could be expanded. Priority service registers are voluntary schemes which utility companies create to ensure that extra help is available to certain vulnerable customers. The previous Government recognised that the current PSRs are disjointed, resource intensive and duplicative for companies, carrying risks of inconsistencies and can be “burdensome for customers”.

That Government concluded that there is “significant opportunity to improve the efficiencies and delivery of these services”. The Bill is an opportunity for this Government to confirm their commitment to implementing a universal priority services register and delivering any legislative measures required to facilitate it. A universal PSR service must include the interests of bereaved people within its scope, and charitable voluntary organisations such as Marie Curie, which works to support bereaved people, should be consulted in its development.

I have some questions to the Minister. First, what measures does this Bill introduce that will reduce the administrative burden on bereaved people after the death of a loved one? Secondly, the Tell Us Once service was implemented in 2010 and the original equality impact assessment envisaged that its operation should be kept under review to reflect the changing nature of how people engage with public services, but no review has ever happened. Will the Minister therefore commit the Government to undertake a review of Tell Us Once? Thirdly, the previous Government’s Smarter Regulation White Paper committed to taking forward a plan to create a “shared once” support register, which would bring together priority service registers. Will the Minister commit this Government to taking that work forward? I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, it occurred to me when the noble Lord was speaking that we had lost a valuable member of our Committee. This could not be the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, who was speaking to us just then. It must have been some form of miasma or technical imposition. Maybe his identity has been stolen and not been replaced. Normally, the noble Lord would have arrived with a short but punchy speech that set out in full how the new scheme was to be run, by whom, at what price, what its extent would be and the changes that would result. The Liberal future it may have been, but it was always delightful to listen to. I am sad that all the noble Lord has asked for here is a modest request, which I am sure the noble Baroness will want to jump to and accept, to carry out a review—as if we did not have enough of those.

Seriously, I once used the service that we have been talking about when my father-in-law died, and I found it amazing. It was also one that I stumbled on and did not know about before it happened. Deaths did not happen often enough in my family to make me aware of it. But, like the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I felt that it should have done much more than what it did, although it was valuable for what it did. It also occurred to me, as life moved on and we produced children, that there would be a good service when introducing a new person—a service to tell you once about that, because the number of tough issues one has to deal with when children are born is also extraordinary and can be annoying, if you miss out on one—particularly with the schooling issues, which are more common these days than they were when my children were being born.

I endorse what was said, and regret that the amendment perhaps did not go further, but I hope that the Minister when she responds will have good news for us.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

I only come up with the really positive ones.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

We support this service, of course—we can see the potential for expanding it further if we get this measure right—but I have to tell noble Lords that the current service is not in great shape in terms of its technology. It has suffered from insufficient investment over time and it needs to be improved before we can take it to the next stage of its potential. We consider that the best way to address this issue is, first, to upgrade its legacy technology, which is what we are operating at the moment. I realised that this is a problem only as I took over this brief; I had assumed that it would be more straightforward, but the problem seems to be that we are operating on ancient technology here.

Work is already under way to try to bring it all up to date. We are looking to improve the current service and at the opportunities to extend it to more of government. Our initial task is to try to extend it to some of the government departments that do not recognise it at the moment. Doing that will inform us of the potential limitations and the opportunities should we wish to extend it to the private sector in future. I say to the noble Lord that this will have to be a stage process because of the technological challenges that we currently have.

We are reluctant to commit to a review and further expansion of the service at this time but, once the service is updated, we would absolutely be happy to talk to noble Lords and revisit this issue, because we see the potential of it. The update is expected to be completed in the next two years; I hope that we will be able to come back and give a progress report to noble Lords at that time. However, I have to say, this is what we have inherited—bear with us, because we have a job to do in bringing it up to date. I hope that, on that basis, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment, albeit reluctantly.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson—at least, I think I do—for his contribution.

I have clearly worked on far too many Bills in the past. I have to do better when I move amendments like this. I have to bring the full package, but we are allowed to speak for only a quarter of an hour, so we cannot bring everything to the table. All I can promise the noble Viscount is that my avatar will haunt him while he is sitting on the fence.

I thank the Minister for giving a sympathetic response to this, but clearly there are barriers to rolling out anything beyond where we have got to. I was rather disappointed by two years because I was formulating a plan to bring back an Oral Question in about six months’ time. I am afraid that she may find that we are trying to hurry her along a little on this. I recognise that there are technology issues, but convening people and getting broader engagement with various players is something that could be done without the technology in the first instance, so the Minister can expect follow-up on this front rather earlier than two years’ time. She does not have the luxury of waiting around before we come back to her on it, but I thank her because this is a fantastic service. It is limited, but, as far as it goes, it is a godsend for the bereaved. We need to make sure that it improves and fulfils its potential across the private sector as well as the public sector. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 58 withdrawn.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Clement-Jones Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my AI interests in the register. I thank the Minister for her upbeat introduction to the Bill and all her engagement to date on its contents. It has been a real pleasure listening to so many expert speeches this afternoon. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, did not quite use the phrase “practice makes perfect”, because, after all, this is the third shot at a data protection Bill over the past few years, but I was really taken by the vision and breadth of so many speeches today. I think we all agree that this Bill is definitely better than its two predecessors, but of course most noble Lords went on to say “but”, and that is exactly my position.

Throughout, we have been reminded of the growing importance of data in the context of AI adoption, particularly in the private and public sectors. I think many of us regret that “protection” is not included in the Bill title, but that should go hand in hand if not with actual AI regulation then at least with an understanding of where we are heading on AI regulation.

Like others, I welcome that the Bill omits many of the proposals from the unlamented Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, which in our view— I expect to see a vigorous shake of the head from the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose—watered down data subject rights. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, did us a great favour by setting out the list of many of the items that were missing from that Bill.

I welcome the retention of some elements in this Bill, such as the digital registration of birth and deaths. As the noble Lord, Lord Knight, said, and as Marie Curie has asked, will the Government undertake a review of the Tell Us Once service to ensure that it covers all government departments across the UK and is extended to more service providers?

I also welcome some of the new elements, in particular amendments to the Online Safety Act—essentially unfinished business, as far back as our Joint Committee. It was notable that the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, welcomed the paving provisions regarding independent researchers’ access to social media and search services, but there are questions even around the width of that provision. Will this cover research regarding non-criminal misinformation on internet platforms? What protection will researchers conducting public interest research actually receive?

Then there is something that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, Ian Russell and many other campaigners have fought for: access for coroners to the data of young children who have passed away. I think that will be a milestone.

The Bill may need further amendment. On these Benches we may well put forward further changes for added child protection, given the current debate over the definition of category 1 services.

There are some regrettable omissions from the previous Bill, such as those extending the soft opt-in that has always existed for commercial organisations to non-commercial organisations, including charities. As we have heard, there are a considerable number of unwelcome retained provisions.

Many noble Lords referred to “recognised legitimate interests”. The Bill introduces to Article 6 of the GDPR a new ground of recognised legitimate interest, which counts as a lawful basis for processing if it meets any of the descriptions in the new Annex 1 to the GDPR in Schedule 4 of the Bill. The Bill essentially qualifies the public interest test under Article 6(1)(e) of the GDPR and, as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, pointed out, gives the Secretary of State powers to define additional recognised legitimate interests beyond those in the annex. This was queried by the Constitution Committee, and we shall certainly be kicking the tyres on that during Committee. Crucially, there is no requirement for the controller to make any balancing test, as the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, mentioned, taking the data subject’s interests into account. It just needs to meet the grounds in the annex. These provisions diminish data protection and represent a threat to data adequacy, and should be dropped.

Almost every noble Lord raised the changes to Article 22 and automated decision-making. With the exception of sub-paragraph (d), to be inserted by Clause 80, the provisions are very similar to those of the old Clause 14 of the DPDI Bill in limiting the right not to be subject to automated decision-making processing or profiling to special category data. Where automated decision-making is currently broadly prohibited with specific exceptions, the Bill will permit it in all but a limited set of circumstances. The Secretary of State is given the power to redefine what ADM actually is. Again, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, was right in how he described what the outcome of that will be. Given the Government’s digital transformation agenda in the public sector and the increasing use of AI in the private sector, this means increasing the risk of biased and discriminatory outcomes in ADM systems.

Systems such as HART, which predicted reoffending risk, PredPol, which was used to allocate policing resources based on postcodes, and the gangs matrix, which harvests intelligence, have all been shown to have had discriminatory effects. It was a pleasure to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, had to say. Have the Government learned nothing from the Horizon scandal? As he said, we need to move urgently to change the burden of proof for computer evidence. What the noble Earl, Lord Errol, said, in reminding us of the childlike learning abilities of AI, was extremely important in that respect. We should not put our trust in that way in the evidence given by these models.

ADM safeguards are critical to public trust in AI, and our citizens need greater not less protection. As the Ada Lovelace Institute says, the safeguards around automated decision-making, which exist only in data protection law, are more critical than ever in ensuring that people understand when a significant decision about them is being automated, why that decision has been made, and the routes to challenge it or ask for it to be decided by a human. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, set out that prescription, and I entirely agree with them.

This is a crucial element of the Bill but I will not spend too much time on it because, noble Lords will be very pleased to hear, I have a Private Member’s Bill on this subject, providing much-needed additional safe- guards for ADM in the public sector, coming up on 13 December. I hope noble Lords will be there and that the Government will see the sense of it in the meantime.

We have heard a great deal about research. Clause 68 widens research access to data. There is a legitimate government desire to ensure that valuable research does not have to be discarded because of a lack of clarity around reuse or because of very narrow distinctions between the original and new purpose. However, it is quite clear that the definition of scientific research introduced by the Bill is too broad and risks abuse by commercial interests. A number of noble Lords raised that, and I entirely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, that the Bill opens the door to data reuse and mass data scraping by any data-driven product development under the auspices of scientific research. Subjects cannot make use of their data rights if they do not even know that their data is being processed.

On overseas transfers, I was very grateful to hear what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, had to say about data adequacy, and the noble Lords, Lord Bethell, Lord Vaux and Lord Russell, also raised this. All of us are concerned about the future of data adequacy, particularly the tensions that are going to be created with the new Administration in the US if there are very different bases for dealing with data transfer between countries.

We have concerns about the national security provisions. I will not go into those in great detail, but why do the Government believe that these clauses are necessary to safeguard national security?

Many noble Lords raised the question of digital verification services. It was very interesting to hear what the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, had to say, given his long-standing interest in this area. We broadly support the provisions, but the Constitution Committee followed the DPRRC in criticising the lack of parliamentary scrutiny of the framework to be set by the Secretary of State or managed by DSIT. How will they interoperate with the digital identity verification services being offered by DSIT within the Government’s One Login programme?

Will the new regulator be independent, ensure effective governance and accountability, monitor compliance, investigate malicious actors and take enforcement action regarding these services? For high levels of trust in digital ID services, we need high-quality governance. As the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, said, we need to be clear about the status of physical ID alongside that. Why is there still no digital identity offence? I entirely agreed with what the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Arbuthnot, said about the need for factual clarity underlying the documents that will be part of the wallet—so to speak—in terms of digital ID services. It is vital that we distinguish and make sure that both sex and gender are recorded in our key documents.

There are other areas about which we on these Benches have concerns, although I have no time to go through them in great detail. We support the provisions on open banking, which we want to see used and the opportunities properly exploited. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, said, we need a proper narrative that sells the virtues of open banking. We are concerned that the current design allows landlords to be given access to monitoring the bank accounts of tenants for as long as an open banking approval lasts. Smart data legislation should mandate that the maximum and default access duration be no longer than 24 hours.

A formidable number of noble Lords spoke about web trawling by AI developers to train their models. It is vital that copyright owners have meaningful control over their content, and that there is a duty of transparency and penalties for scraping news publisher and other copyrighted content.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, very helpfully spoke about the Government’s ECHR memorandum. I do not need to repeat what he said, but clearly, this could lead to a significant gap, given that the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 has not been altered and is not altered by this Bill.

There are many other aspects to this. The claims for this Bill and these provisions are as extravagant as for the old one; I think the noble Baroness mentioned the figure of £10 billion at the outset. We are in favour of growth and innovation, but how will this Bill also ensure that fundamental rights for the citizen will be enhanced in an increasingly AI-driven world?

We need to build public trust, as the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said, in data sharing and access. To achieve the ambitions of the Sudlow review, there are lessons that need to be learned by the Department of Health and the NHS. We need to deal with edtech, as has been described by a number of noble Lords. All in all, the Government are still not diverging enough from the approach of their predecessor in their enthusiasm for the sharing and use of data across the public and private sectors without the necessary safeguards. We still have major reservations, which I hope the Government will respond to. I look forward—I think—to Grand Committee.

Generative AI: Intellectual Property Rights

Lord Clement-Jones Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Clement-Jones]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, following the recommendation of the Vallance review of the regulation of emerging digital technologies, whether they plan to set out a policy position on the relationship between intellectual property rights and the training of generative AI models.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Information and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)]

My Lords, the AI and creative sectors are both essential to our mission to grow the UK economy. Our goal is to find the right balance between fostering innovation in AI while ensuring protection for creators and our vibrant creative industries. This is an important but complex area and we are very aware of the need to resolve the issues. We are working with stakeholders to understand their views and will set out our next steps soon.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, but the Prime Minister, in a recent letter to the News Media Association, said:

“We recognise the basic principle that publishers should have control over and seek payment for their work, including when thinking about the role of AI”.


Will the Minister therefore agree with the House of Lords Communications and Digital Committee and affirm the rights of copyright owners in relation to their content used for training purposes on large language models? Will she rule out any widening of the text and data-mining exception and include in any future AI legislation a duty on developers to keep records of the material and data used to train their AI models?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the Lords committee that has considered this issue. We are keen to make progress in this area but it is important that we get it right. The previous Government had this on their table for a long time and were not able to resolve it. The Intellectual Property Office, DSIT and DCMS are working together to try to find a way forward that will provide a solution for creative media and the AI sectors. Ministers—my colleagues Chris Bryant and Feryal Clark—held round tables with representatives of the creative industries and the AI sector recently, and we are looking at how we can take this forward to resolve the many issues and questions that the noble Lord has quite rightly posed for me today.

Communications Act 2003 (Disclosure of Information) Order 2024

Lord Clement-Jones Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2024 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Information and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)]

My Lords, this order was laid before the House on 9 September this year. The Online Safety Act lays the foundations of strong protection for children and adults online. I am grateful to noble Lords for their continued interest in the Online Safety Act and its implementation. It is critical that the Act is made fully operational as soon as possible, and the Government are committed to ensuring that its protections are delivered as soon as possible. This statutory instrument will further support the implementation of the Act by Ofcom.

This statutory instrument concerns Ofcom’s ability to share business information with Ministers for the purpose of fulfilling functions under the Online Safety Act 2023, under Section 393 of the Communications Act 2003. This corrects an oversight in the original Online Safety Act that was identified following its passage.

Section 393 of the Communications Act 2003 contains a general restriction on Ofcom disclosing information about particular businesses without consent from the affected businesses, but with exemptions, including where this facilitates Ofcom in carrying out its regulatory functions and facilitates other specified persons in carrying out specific functions. However, this section does not currently enable Ofcom to share information with Ministers for the purpose of fulfilling functions under the Online Safety Act. This means that, were Ofcom to disclose information about businesses to the Secretary of State, it may be in breach of the law.

It is important that a gateway exists for sharing information for these purposes so that the Secretary of State can carry out functions under the Online Safety Act, such as setting the fee threshold for the online safety regime in 2025 or carrying out post-implementation reviews of the Act required under Section 178. This statutory instrument will therefore amend the Communications Act 2003 to allow Ofcom to share information with the Secretary of State and other Ministers, strictly for the purpose of fulfilling functions under the Online Safety Act 2023.

There are strong legislative safeguards and limitations on the disclosure of this information, and Ofcom is experienced in handling confidential and sensitive information obtained from the services it regulates. Ofcom must comply with UK data protection law and would need to show that the processing of any personal data was necessary for a lawful purpose. As a public body, Ofcom is also required to act compatibly with the Article 8 right of privacy under the European Convention on Human Rights.

We will therefore continue to review the Online Safety Act, so that Ofcom is able to support the delivery of functions under the Act where it is appropriate. That is a brief but detailed summary of why this instrument is necessary. I should stress that it contains a technical amendment to deal with a very small legal aspect. Nevertheless, I will be interested to hear noble Lords’ comments on the SI. I beg to move.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction and for explaining the essence of the SI. We all have a bit of pride of creation in the Online Safety Act; there are one or two of us around today who clearly have a continuing interest in it. This is one of the smaller outcomes of the Act and, as the Minister says, it is an essentially an oversight. I would say that a tidying-up operation is involved here. It is rather gratifying to see that the Communications Act still has such importance, 21 years after it was passed. It is somewhat extraordinary for legislation to be invoked after that period of time in an area such as communications, which is so fast-moving.

My question for the Minister is whether the examples that she gave or which were contained in the Explanatory Memorandum, regarding the need for information to be obtained by the Secretary of State in respect of Section 178, on reviewing the regulatory framework, and Section 86, on the threshold for payment of fees, are exclusive. Are there other aspects of the Online Safety Act where the Secretary of State requires that legislation?

We are always wary of the powers given to Secretaries of State, as the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, will probably remember to his cost. But at every point, the tyres on legislation need to be kicked to make sure that the Secretary of State has just the powers that they need—and that we do not go further than we need to or have a skeleton Bill, et cetera—so the usual mantra will apply: we want to make sure that the Secretary of State’s powers are proportionate.

It would be very useful to hear from the Minister what other powers are involved. Is it quite a number, were these two just the most plausible or are there six other sets of powers which might not be so attractive? That is the only caveat I would make in this respect.

Online Safety Act 2023 (Priority Offences) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Lord Clement-Jones Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2024 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Information and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)]

My Lords, these regulations were laid before the House on 12 September this year. The Government stated in their manifesto that they would

“use every government tool available to target perpetrators and address the root causes of abuse and violence”

in order to achieve their

“landmark mission to halve violence against women and girls in a decade”.

Through this statutory instrument, we are broadening online platforms’ and search engines’ responsibilities for tackling intimate image abuse under the Online Safety Act. More than one in three women have experienced abuse online. The rise in intimate image abuse is not only devastating for victims but also spreads misogyny on social media that can develop into potentially dangerous relationships offline. One in 14 adults in England and Wales has experienced threats to share intimate images, rising to one in seven young women aged 18 to 34.

It is crucial that we tackle these crimes from every angle, including online, and ensure that tech companies step up and play their part. That is why we are laying this statutory instrument. Through it, we will widen online platforms’ and search engines’ obligations to tackle intimate image abuse under the Online Safety Act. As noble Lords will know, the Act received Royal Assent on 26 October 2023. It places strong new duties on online user-to-user platforms and search services to protect their users from harm.

As part of this, the Act gives service providers new “illegal content duties”. Under these duties, online platforms need to assess the risk that their services will allow users to encounter illegal content or be

“used for the commission or facilitation of a priority offence”.

They then need to take steps to mitigate identified risks. These will include implementing safety-by-design measures to reduce risks and content moderation systems to remove illegal content where it appears.

The Online Safety Act sets out a list of priority offences for the purposes of providers’ illegal content duties. These offences reflect the most serious and prevalent online illegal content and activity. They are set out in schedules to the Act. Platforms will need to take additional steps to tackle these kinds of illegal activities under their illegal content duties.

The priority offences list currently includes certain intimate image abuse offences. Through this statutory instrument, we are adding new intimate image abuse offences to the priority list. This replaces an old intimate image abuse offence, which has now been repealed. These new offences are in the Sexual Offences Act 2003. They took effect earlier this year. The older offence was in the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015. The repealed offence covered sharing intimate images where the intent was to cause distress. The new offences are broader; they criminalise sharing intimate images without having a reasonable belief that the subject would consent to sharing the images. These offences include the sharing of manufactured or manipulated images, including so-called deepfakes.

Since these new offences are more expansive, adding them as priority offences means online platforms will be required to tackle more intimate image abuse on their services. This means that we are broadening the scope of what constitutes illegal intimate image content in the Online Safety Act. It also makes it clear that platforms’ priority illegal content duties extend to AI-generated deepfakes and other manufactured intimate images. This is because the new offences that we are adding explicitly cover this content.

As I have set out above, these changes affect the illegal content duties in the Online Safety Act. They will ensure that tech companies play their part in kicking this content off social media. These are just part of a range of wider protections coming into force next spring through the Online Safety Act that will mean that social media companies have to remove the most harmful illegal content, a lot of which disproportionately affects women and girls, such as through harassment and controlling or coercive behaviour.

Ofcom will set out the specific steps that providers can take to fulfil their illegal content duties for intimate image abuse and other illegal content in codes of practice and guidance documentation. It is currently producing this documentation. We anticipate that the new duties will start to be enforced from spring next year once Ofcom has issued these codes of practice and they have come into force. Providers will also need to have done their risk assessment for illegal content by then. We anticipate that Ofcom will recommend that providers should take action in a number of areas. These include content moderation, reporting and complaints procedures, and safety-by-design steps, such as testing their algorithm systems to see whether illegal content is being recommended to users. We are committed to working with Ofcom to get these protections in place as quickly as possible. We are focused on delivering.

Where companies are not removing and proactively stopping this vile material appearing on their platforms, Ofcom will have robust powers to take enforcement action against them. This includes imposing fines of up to £18 million or 10% of qualifying worldwide revenue, whichever is highest.

In conclusion, through this statutory instrument we are broadening providers’ duties for intimate image abuse content. Service providers will need to take proactive steps to search for, remove and limit people’s exposure to this harmful kind of illegal content, including where it has been manufactured or manipulated. I hope noble Lords will commend these further steps that we have taken that take the provisions in the Online Safety Act a useful further step forward. I commend these regulations to the Committee, and I beg to move.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction. I endorse everything she said about intimate image abuse and the importance of legislation to make sure that the perpetrators are penalised and that social media outlets have additional duties under Schedule 7 for priority offences. I am absolutely on the same page as the Minister on this, and I very much welcome what she said. It is interesting that we are dealing with another 2003 Act that, again, is showing itself fit for purpose and able to be amended; perhaps there is some cause to take comfort from our legislative process.

I was interested to hear what the Minister said about the coverage of the offences introduced by the Online Safety Act. She considered that the sharing of sexually explicit material included deepfakes. There was a promise—the noble Viscount will remember it—that the Criminal Justice Bill, which was not passed in the end, would cover that element. It included intent, like the current offence—the one that has been incorporated into Schedule 7. The Private Member’s Bill of the noble Baroness, Lady Owen—I have it in my hand—explicitly introduces an offence that does not require intent, and I very much support that.

I do not believe that this is the last word to be said on the kinds of IIA offence that need to be incorporated as priority offences under Schedule 7. I would very much like to hear what the noble Baroness has to say about why we require intent when, quite frankly, the creation of these deepfakes requires activity that is clearly harmful. We clearly should make sure that the perpetrators are caught. Given the history of this, I am slightly surprised that the Government’s current interpretation of the new offence in the Online Safety Act includes deepfakes. It is gratifying, but the Government nevertheless need to go further.

[Baroness Owen of Alderley Edge (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s remarks and the Government’s step to introduce this SI. I have concerns that it misses the wider problems. The powers given to Ofcom in the Online Safety Act require a lengthy process to implement and are not able to respond quickly. They also do not provide individuals with any redress. Therefore, this SI adding to the list of priority offences, while necessary, does not give victims the recourse they need.

My concern is that Ofcom is approaching this digital problem in an analogue way. It has the power to fine and even disrupt business but, in a digital space—where, when one website is blocked, another can open immediately—Ofcom would, in this scenario, have to restart its process all over again. These powers are not nimble or rapid enough, and they do not reflect the nature of the online space. They leave victims open and exposed to continuing distress. I would be grateful if the Government offered some assurances in this area.

The changes miss the wider problem of non-compliance by host websites outside the UK. As I have previously discussed in your Lordships’ House, the Revenge Porn Helpline has a removal rate of 90% of reported non-consensual sexually explicit content, both real and deepfake. However, in 10% of cases, the host website will not comply with the removal of the content. These sites are often hosted in countries such as Russia or those in Latin America. In cases of non-compliance by host websites, the victims continue to suffer, even where there has been a successful conviction.

If we take the example of a man who was convicted in the UK of blackmailing 200 women, the Revenge Porn Helpline successfully removed 161,000 images but 4,000 still remain online three years later, with platforms continuing to ignore the take-down requests. I would be grateful if the Government could outline how they are seeking to tackle the removal of this content, featuring British citizens, hosted in jurisdictions where host sites are not complying with removal.

Independent Pornography Review

Lord Clement-Jones Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. The scale of violent images featuring women and girls in our country is intolerable, and this Government will treat it as the national emergency it is. The noble Lord will be pleased to hear that the Government have set out an unprecedented mission to halve violence against women and girls within a decade. We are using every government tool we have to target the perpetrators and address the root cause of violence. That involves many legislative and non-legislative measures, as the noble Lord will appreciate, including tackling the education issue. However, ultimately, we have to make sure that the legislation is robust and that we take action, which we intend to do.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, as the Minister and others have mentioned, there is considerable and increasing concern about deepfake pornographic material, particularly the so-called nudification apps, which can be easily accessed by users of any age. What action will the Government be taking against this unacceptable technology, and will an offence be included in the forthcoming crime and policing Bill?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises an important point. Where nudification apps and other material do not come under the remit of the Online Safety Act, we will look at other legislative tools to make sure that all new forms of technology—including AI and its implications for online images —are included in robust legislation, in whatever form it takes. Our priority is to implement the Online Safety Act, but we are also looking at what other tools might be necessary going forward. As the Secretary of State has said, this is an iterative process; the Online Safety Act is not the end of the game. We are looking at what further steps we need to take, and I hope the noble Lord will bear with us.

Watchdogs (Industry and Regulators Committee Report)

Lord Clement-Jones Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and a particular pleasure to follow so closely the comprehensive introduction by our excellent former chair, the noble Lord, Lord Hollick.

As the noble Lord alluded to, the Grenfell report and today’s Statement have been an extremely sobering reminder of the importance of effective regulation and the effective oversight of regulators. The principal job of regulation is to ensure societal safety and benefit—in essence, mitigating risk. In that context, the performance of the UK regulators, as well as the nature of regulation, is crucial.

In the early part of this year, the spotlight was on regulation and the effectiveness of our regulators. Our report was followed by a major contribution to the debate from the Institute for Government. We then had the Government’s own White Paper, Smarter Regulation, which seemed designed principally to take the growth duty established in 2015 even further with a more permissive approach to risk and a “service mindset”, and risked creating less clarity with yet another set of regulatory principles going beyond those in the Better Regulation Framework and the Regulators’ Code.

Our report was, however, described as excellent by the Minister for Investment and Regulatory Reform in the Department for Business and Trade under the previous Government, the noble Lord, Lord Johnson of Lainston, whom I am pleased to see taking part in the debate today. I hope that the new Government will agree with that assessment and take our recommendations further forward.

Both we and the Institute for Government identified a worrying lack of scrutiny of our regulators—indeed, a worrying lack of even identifying who our regulators are. The NAO puts the number of regulators at around 90 and the Institute for Government at 116, but some believe that there are as many as 200 that we need to take account of. So it is welcome that the previous Government’s response said that a register of regulators, detailing all UK regulators, their roles, duties and sponsor departments, was in the offing. Is this ready to be launched?

The crux of our report was to address performance, strategic independence and oversight of UK regulators. In exploring existing oversight, accountability measures and the effectiveness of parliamentary oversight, it was clear that we needed to improve self-reporting by regulators. However, a growth duty performance framework, as proposed in the White Paper, does not fit the bill.

Regulators should also be subject to regular performance evaluations, as we recommended; these reviews should be made public to ensure transparency and accountability. To ensure that these are effective, we recommended, as the noble Lord, Lord Hollick mentioned, establishing a new office for regulatory performance—an independent statutory body analogous to the National Audit Office—to undertake regular performance reviews of regulators and to report to Parliament. It was good to see that, similar to our proposal, the Institute for Government called for a regulatory oversight support unit in its subsequent report, Parliament and Regulators.

As regards independence, we had concerns about the potential politicisation of regulatory appointments. Appointment processes for regulators should be transparent and merit-based, with greater parliamentary scrutiny to avoid politicisation. Although strategic guidance from the Government is necessary, it should not compromise the operational independence of regulators.

What is the new Government’s approach to this? Labour’s general election manifesto emphasised fostering innovation and improving regulation to support economic growth, with a key proposal to establish a regulatory innovation office in order to streamline regulatory processes for new technologies and set targets for tech regulators. I hope that that does not take us down the same trajectory as the previous Government. Regulation is not the enemy of innovation, or indeed growth, but can in fact, by providing certainty of standards, be the platform for it.

At the time of our report, the IfG rightly said:

“It would be a mistake for the committee to consider its work complete … new members can build on its agenda in their future work, including by fleshing out its proposals for how ‘Ofreg’ would work in practice”.


We should take that to heart. There is still a great deal of work to do to make sure that our regulators are clearly independent of government, are able to work effectively, and are properly resourced and scrutinised. I hope that the new Government will engage closely with the committee in their work.

AI Technology Regulations

Lord Clement-Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 30th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for those good wishes. Of course, he is raising a really important issue of great concern to all of us. During the last election, we felt that the Government were well prepared to ensure the democratic integrity of our UK elections. We did have robust systems in place to protect against interference, through the Defending Democracy Taskforce and the Joint Election and Security Preparedness unit. We continue to work with the Home Office and the security services to assess the impact of that work. Going forward, the Online Safety Act goes further by putting new requirements on social media platforms to swiftly remove illegal misinformation and disinformation, including where it is AI-generated, as soon as it becomes available. We are still assessing the need for further legislation in the light of the latest intelligence, but I assure my noble friend that we take this issue extremely seriously. It affects the future of our democratic process, which I know is vital to all of us.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the creation of an AI opportunities plan, announced by the Government, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Knight, says, we must also tackle the risks. In other jurisdictions across the world, including the EU, AI-driven live facial recognition technology is considered to seriously infringe the right to privacy and have issues with accuracy and bias, and is being banned or restricted for both law enforcement and business use. Will the Government, in their planned AI legislation, provide equivalent safeguards for UK citizens and ensure their trust in new technology?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question and for all the work he has done on the AI issue, including his new book, which I am sure is essential reading over the summer for everybody. I should say that several noble Lords in this Chamber have written books on AI, so noble Lords might want to consider that for their holiday reading.

The noble Lord will know that the use and regulation of live facial recognition is for each country to decide. We already have some regulations about it, but it is already governed by data protection, equality and human rights legislation, supplemented by specific police guidance. It is absolutely vital that its use is only when it is necessary, proportionate and fair. We will continue to look at the legislation and at whether privacy is being sufficiently protected. That is an issue that will come forward when the future legislation is being prepared.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Lord Clement-Jones Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Thursday 23rd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his work on my amendments. As he rightly pointed out, they are the last amendments outstanding on this Bill. I thank the usual channels for their assiduous consideration of whether this should go further at this stage. We have seen some concessions from the Government, which are much appreciated. There is a huge amount of additional work still to be done, and obviously I am sorry that the amendments tabled originally were not accepted in full, but I am very grateful to the Minister for taking some action in the new clause which was agreed in another place the day before yesterday.

I conclude by saying that I will do everything in my power to return to this campaign on behalf of the true fans of sport, music festivals and music events in what I hope will be just a matter of months. In the meantime, I thank the Minister and his outstanding civil servants for all the hard work they have done, not least with the CMA in recent months, and express my gratitude to the whole House for its support.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I do not propose to go over old competition ground, but like the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, our attitude to Motion A is not to oppose it but to be somewhat disappointed at the Government’s response; on the other hand, we welcome the fact that they have added new enforcement proposals and provisions and the promised review. I think it is quite unaccountable that they have resisted the almost irresistible force of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan; it has been a sight to behold his persistence throughout not only this Bill but previous Bills. I am quite confident that eventually his campaigning will bear fruit because, when we look at the terms of the amendments that were not agreed to by the Commons on providing evidence of proof of purchase and of title to tickets, among other things they are only common sense and very good consumer protection.

I add my thank you valedictory to the Minister, his colleague the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, who I see is riding shotgun today, and the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, who made a cameo appearance on the Bill and was the Minister involved very heavily in the Online Safety Bill proceedings. Both Ministers have always been willing to engage. They have not always conceded, but they have always listened, so I thank them very much indeed for all their service. It has been a pretty long ride when one looks back to the beginning of the suite of digital Bills in the past two years, starting with the Online Safety Bill, then the digital markets Bill, and now the non-lamented data protection Bill, and I look forward to further digital legislation in the autumn or the beginning of next year.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my thanks, first, to the Ministers. As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said, they have worked assiduously, and we have felt as if we were constantly in their company over the past six months or so. They have always been courteous and had a listening ear, and I thank them for that. I, too, add my thanks to the members of the Bill team for all their hard work in preparing the Bill and the quite substantial amendments on occasions that have been agreed on concession. I particularly thank the stakeholders in the wider scope of the Bill, the challenger firms and the consumers who have been so active in helping us shape what is becoming a good Bill.

I am sorry that the Government did not see the sense of what I thought was an extremely reasonable amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. We remain hugely disappointed in Motion A for the reasons that we have ready rehearsed which I do not need to repeat. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and Sharon Hodgson who have campaigned on this issue for many years. I hope that in due course they will get their reward.

I have to say that, if elected, a Labour Government would strengthen consumer rights legislation to protect fans from fraudulent ticket practices, to restrict the sale of more tickets than permissible and to ensure that anyone buying a ticket on the secondary market can see clearly the original price and where it comes from. We will put the interests of the fans and the public first on this. Nevertheless, we believe overall that this is a good Bill that takes the first steps to regulating the behaviour of the big tech companies, which is long overdue, giving a bit more security to challenger firms and adding protection to consumer rights. We are grateful for the concessions made along the way that have indeed improved the Bill. At this stage in the proceedings, we think it is right that the Bill do now pass and that we do not need to debate it any further.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Lord Clement-Jones Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I intervene just briefly. I am very pleased to take the opportunity to follow what the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, was just saying because it touches directly on the points I was going to make.

First, I am very grateful for the conversations I have had with the noble Lord and Minister Lopez in his department. I look forward to further debate about the extension to online news services. It will certainly be my intention to table amendments to the Media Bill to enable us to consider how the media public interest test is to be applied in relation to this wider definition of news providers, since the definitions are clearly now out of date—I can say that, having been part of the Puttnam committee on the 2003 legislation.

My noble friend has done an amazing piece of legislative work. I just have to ask, as I did on Report, why it would not have sufficed to have added a new specified consideration to Section 58 of the Enterprise Act 2002, in effect on the need to prevent the acquisition, control of, or influence over newspapers or newspaper periodicals by any defined foreign power. As my noble friend says, we have 16 pages; frankly, we could have done it in about three lines, but clearly there are differences in terms of the bar that has to be crossed and the requirement on the Secretary of State. As the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, said, the Secretary of State must do these things, as opposed to the discretion under the current merger regime, but it seems to me that, with a new specified consideration, the current merger regime would provide the necessary powers. For example, it was sufficient for the purpose of meeting the capability to deal with a public health emergency in Section 58 as a specified consideration, or to maintain the stability of our financial system, as specified after the financial crisis, in Section 58. I am not at all clear why we have departed from the same approach in this case. There is a risk that we end up with overlapping and very complex provisions relating to one type of merger situation as opposed to other merger situations, but we will come on to discuss that.

On Report, I raised with my noble friend the question of broadcasting. We can return to that in the Media Bill, but, of course, where broadcasters are concerned, we have the benefit of the relationship to the Ofcom standards code, which does not apply in relation to newspapers. I hope we can revisit that when we come to the Media Bill.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I want to revert very briefly, and thank the noble Lord, Lord Offord, for his statement about the status of the Bill in Northern Ireland, before commenting on Amendment 1. I very much hope that those discussions go as quickly as possible in the circumstances. I also welcome the noble Lord, Lord Leong, back to the Opposition Front Benches, and hope that he is in much better form.

I start by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, and the noble Lords, Lord Forsyth, Lord Robertson, and Lord Anderson, on what is really a triumph. I thank the Minister, in particular, the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, for producing something so comprehensive, and perhaps complicated. As someone who is rather used to replies such as “in due course” or “we’re going to produce guidance”, it just shows what government can do swiftly and decisively when it really gets the bit between its teeth. It means that we are not going to take many more excuses in future.

I very much hope that, as the noble Lords, Lord Faulks and Lord Lansley, said, we will not lose sight of the digital news media agenda as well, because it just demonstrates what is possible through this change to the Enterprise Act. There is a broader agenda, and that needs addressing. I very much hope that, as other noble Lords have said, the secondary legislation really is consistent with the intent demonstrated today, both in what the Minister had to say and in the intent of the proposers of the original amendment. It is very good that the Minister has, in a sense, confirmed that it will impact on the RedBird proposal, if that proposal is still current on the effective date, given the circumstances. I entirely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, that this is a matter of principle; it is not about the particular country. However, I do feel strongly about the particular country, so in these circumstances, we are entitled to be pleased that this is going to be the case in terms of this particular transaction.

The noble Baroness raised questions about the threshold, and I very much hope that the Minister can answer them. I thank him, and I think there is general satisfaction across the House. This demonstrates what the Government can do when they get the bit between their teeth.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I am delighted that the Minister has come back at Third Reading as he undertook to and that he has produced this amendment. I am only sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is not present to be able to take the credit for it.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, we welcome the Government’s amendment on subscription reminder notices. As has been said, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, made a very sensible intervention when we debated this in Committee and on Report, and it provides a helpful clarification to service providers. I hope that this amendment and the other changes that we made on Report have now struck a much better balance between businesses’ needs and consumer interests.

We look forward to hearing details of the department’s further work on implementing the gift aid protections and other work on cancellation methods, but, for now, we are pleased with the progress that has been made on the Bill and we wish it a speedy onward passage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

I hesitate to rise, because I realise I am probably testing the patience of the House, having already spoken in Third Reading. I just wanted to say a couple of things.

I thank my noble friends Lord Camrose and Lord Offord on the Front Bench for their work on this Bill. As they will know, this is legislation for which the Communications and Digital Committee has been calling for several years—it started under the chairmanship of my predecessor, my noble friend Lord Gilbert. It is something that I have been pleased to take a very active involvement in, and I am very pleased to support it passing.

As we think about what this Bill is trying to achieve and why, it is worth also remembering why we in the UK are forging a different path from the ones that Europe and the US are on. In the last few days, we have seen the US DoJ launch a major anti-trust lawsuit against Apple. In the EU, the Commission is taking serious measures against some of the big tech firms to make them comply with the spirit and letter of its new Digital Markets Act. Both situations have an ominous sense of being exactly the kind of lengthy legal battles that favour big tech, which we are trying to avoid.

The House has rightly voted on a number of measures to try to ensure that our regulation can work as it is meant to, in a timely, proportionate and less confrontational manner. That is what the Government are seeking to do with this legislation.

As the Bill leaves here and enters its final stage, I emphasise two measures from among the amendments passed by this House. First, the deadline for the Secretary of State to approve CMA guidance is key in keeping things on track and avoiding concerning delays. Secondly, if the Government and the Commons cannot accept the amendments to revert the appeals process on fines back to JR standard, I hope that my noble friends within government will consider putting a clarification in the Bill that the appeals process on fines cannot be changed in ways that undermine the JR standard or open up avenues for more expansive and protracted legal challenge.

That aside, I am grateful to the Government for bringing forward this important legislation. It will mark out our regulatory regime as different from those in other parts of the world that are having such a big impact—and not necessarily in good ways.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell. I agree with a huge amount of what she said.

I reiterate the welcome that we on these Benches gave to the Bill at Second Reading. We believe it is vital to tackle the dominance of big tech and to enhance the powers of our competition regulators to tackle it, in particular through the new flexible pro-competition powers and the ability to act ex ante and on an interim basis.

We were of the view, and still are, that the Bill needs strengthening in a number of respects. We have been particularly concerned about the countervailing benefits exemption under Clause 29. This must not be used by big tech as a major loophole to avoid regulatory action. A number of other aspects were inserted into the Bill on Report in the Commons about appeals standards and proportionality. During the passage of the Bill, we added a fourth amendment to ensure that the Secretary of State’s power to approve CMA guidance will not unduly delay the regime coming into effect.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, said, we are already seeing big tech take an aggressive approach to the EU Digital Markets Act. We therefore believe the Bill needs to be more robust in this respect. In this light, it is essential to retain the four key amendments passed on Report and that they are not reversed through ping-pong when the Bill returns to the Commons.

I thank both Ministers and the Bill team. They have shown great flexibility in a number of other areas, such as online trading standards powers, fake reviews, drip pricing, litigation, funding, cooling-off periods, subscriptions and, above all, press ownership, as we have seen today. They have been assiduous in their correspondence throughout the passage of the Bill, and I thank them very much for that, but in the crucial area of digital markets we have seen no signs of movement. This is regrettable and gives the impression that the Government are unwilling to move because of pressure from big tech. If the Government want to dispel that impression, they should agree with these amendments, which passed with such strong cross-party support on Report.

In closing, I thank a number of outside organisations that have been so helpful during the passage of the Bill—in particular, the Coalition for App Fairness, the Public Interest News Foundation, Which?, Preiskel & Co, Foxglove, the Open Markets Institute and the News Media Association. I also thank Sarah Pughe and Mohamed-Ali Souidi in our own Whips’ Office. Last, but certainly not least, I thank my noble friend Lord Fox for his support and—how shall I put it?—his interoperability.

Given the coalition of interest that has been steadily building across the House during the debates on the Online Safety Bill and now this Bill, I thank all noble Lords on other Benches who have made common cause and, consequently, had such a positive impact on the passage of this Bill. As with the Online Safety Act, this has been a real collaborative effort in a very complex area.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, before the Bill passes, I put on record my thanks to the Ministers—the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, and the noble Lord, Lord Offord—as well as the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, who made a guest appearance. I also put on record my huge appreciation for the Bill team for their timely letters and briefings, and their immense good humour when we asked for even more information.

The whole experience has been a good illustration that, when we fully engage in discussion on a Bill, we can deliver genuine improvements that have broad support. I hope that our colleagues in the Commons appreciate the careful thought and hard work that is behind these changes. I hope that we do not have to be here again on this Bill, but I reiterate that our door is always open if further discussions would help. For now, I hope that the Bill will soon be on the statute book and I look forward to its progress.