Airports: Capacity
Lord Clinton-Davis Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are not. We have set up the South East Airports Task Force to look at short-term measures to gain some capacity at Heathrow. In the rather longer term, we have the aviation policy framework, which we are committed to publishing in March 2013. Finally, we have set up the Airports Commission, headed up by Sir Howard Davies.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Is it not likely that non-British airports will heartily welcome the Government’s unpardonable delay in selecting an international hub airport, whether at Heathrow or elsewhere? What does the Minister say about that?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this problem was not unforeseeable. It has been coming for many years, including when noble Lords opposite were in government. We need to get a consensus and find a lasting solution that will survive a change in Governments.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Clinton-Davis Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Worthington
My Lords, I praise the Government for listening and taking on board the very serious concerns we have about integrating environmental concerns into the work of the CAA. This part of the Bill relates to the regulated airports, but this amendment addresses a specific aspect of environmental legislation and regulation, which is working towards meeting legally binding carbon budgets. It inserts a new clause that requires the CAA to have regard to the need to work with air traffic control, the Secretary of State, the Committee on Climate Change and airport transport providers to help to meet the UK’s greenhouse gas reduction obligations.
We single out this issue of greenhouse gas reductions because, as noble Lords will be aware, aviation has an odd status within the Climate Change Act—domestic emissions are in, international emissions are not. We know that the Government are under some pressure to clarify the situation and that they have, under the terms of the Act, until the end of this year to make a decision on whether to put international aviation into the budgets.
A specific clause making reference to greenhouse gas targets is necessary to demonstrate that we do not see the addressing of climate change as simply an add-on—a desirable thing—but as something that is essential. It is fundamental to the future of this industry and sector. The amendment outlines how we would want the CAA to work in the future, under the regime of the carbon budgets, and who it should work with. We hope that this will be a useful additional part of the Bill, to clarify that greenhouse gases are a huge issue. The three regulated airports are significant sources of greenhouse gases as are the airlines and the transport service operators which operate out of them.
This is an important issue. Aviation currently occupies an odd, different place in our climate change legislation. I hope the Government grasp this opportunity to make it absolutely clear that this sector will play its full part in helping us reach our climate change targets. I beg to move.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I find it quite astonishing that, as far as I know, the Bill makes no mention of greenhouse gas emissions. It is vital that an industry which is often attacked for not having sufficient regard to environmental considerations should not be so exposed, and including the amendment would have that effect. The Minister has been very generous so far. Will he continue that generosity?
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am not certain that I agree with the noble Baroness’s argument that the amendment should be in this part of the Bill. Although I understand exactly the valid point she is making, the amendment sits pretty awkwardly with the rest of this part of the Bill, in Chapter 1, which we are discussing. It does not make good law suddenly to put in a clause like this which is so out of place.
My other concern—and here I admit that, because of the short notice of these amendments, I have not done the amount of work that I would like to have done; that is one of the many disadvantages of the behaviour of tabling amendments late—is that the proposal restricts who the CAA has to talk to. It has to talk to NATS, the Secretary of State, the Committee on Climate Change and air transport service providers. I wonder whether there are others who the CAA should talk to. If it is written down in law that these are the people, it does not have to talk to the other groups.
Although I understand the noble Baroness’s point, this is the wrong place for an amendment of this type. However, the principle behind it is surely right. It might be better if one discussed this and looked at a way of getting it into the Bill in another format and another place.
Aviation: Policy
Lord Clinton-Davis Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I agree that aviation is vital to the economy of the United Kingdom. My noble friend asked me about the delay. It is important that we get this policy right and that it can be sustained even with a change in government.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Aviation companies and trade unions argue that the aviation policy devised by the Government is based on indecision not decision. Would it not be hugely advantageous for the UK if we had a third runway at Heathrow, embarked on large-scale road traffic amelioration there and, at the same time, sought to develop a south-eastern airport? Would that not be an advantage?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord suggests that there would be an advantage in having a third runway. Of course there would be an advantage in having a third runway, which is why the previous Government supported one. However, we also need to bear in mind the interests of the more than 200,000 people who live in west London underneath the flight path.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Clinton-Davis Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I share the views of my noble friend Lord Rotherwick. I wholly sympathise with the objective of the amendment, but it is going a bit too far to write it into the Bill in the form that the noble Lord proposes. I have one question for the Minister: what electronic tests and checks, such as X-rays or ultrasound, are available to examine Sikhs wearing turbans that they do not wish to remove?
Lord Clinton-Davis
Reference has already been made to the problems posed by the Sikh population. I refer also to Orthodox Jews. I am not one of them, but they would look askance at the possibility of being dealt with as ordinary citizens are rightly dealt with. Perhaps the Minister would outline what steps are taken towards people who are especially vulnerable, such as the ones I have mentioned.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for raising this important and sensitive issue. I fully agree with your Lordships that we need to ensure that passengers are treated with respect and dignity at all points during their journey through an airport.
I hope I can reassure your Lordships by explaining that the goal that the amendment is designed to achieve is already covered by the Bill. Airports are required by European and domestic regulations to undertake security checks on all passengers, and it is the responsibility of airports to ensure that their customers are treated with dignity and respect.
Clause 80 inserts new Sections 21H and 21I into the Aviation Security Act 1982. New Section 21I requires the CAA to provide such aviation security advice and assistance as it considers appropriate to the persons listed in its subsection (3), including the managers of aerodromes in the UK. In giving such advice and assistance, the CAA has to have regard to the purposes to which Part 2 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 applies, which are broadly the protection of civil aviation against acts of violence. Therefore, if the CAA considered it appropriate, having regard to the purposes to which Part 2 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 applies, it could provide advice and assistance on maintaining the dignity of passengers wearing religious clothing when subject to security checks.
I know that some passengers may worry about security checks and feel uncomfortable about being subjected to them—I certainly do—but, like my noble friend Lord Rotherwick and, I suspect, the whole Committee, I understand that such searches are essential if security is to be maintained in the face of a real and continuing threat from terrorist groups that seek to do us harm.
As I am sure your Lordships will know, each passenger departing from a UK airport undergoes standard security processes irrespective of their age, gender or ethnic background. These checks ensure that they are not carrying articles prohibited from the security-restricted area on to the aircraft. This principle will not change.
Security staff are trained to recognise that some passengers may have particular concerns about searches, particularly searches of some religious clothing, such as those from the Sikh community who wear turbans. The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, referred to Orthodox Jews.
A problem emerged in April 2010 when new EU regulations came into force that required a hand search of turbans to be carried out. Physical contact with the turban causes hurt and offence to Sikhs. As pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, other European states might not be so sensitive to these issues. My right honourable friend the former Secretary of State acted swiftly and instructed airports to continue with the method used prior to April 2010, which mainly involved hand-held metal detectors, while consideration was given to how to resolve the concerns expressed by the Sikh community. After intensive work, a pilot project was put together in a very short time and with the assistance of the Sikh community. The noble Lord pointed out that there is good co-operation between all communities because we are all in it together.
The trial is now under way at almost all the UK’s airports, using a combination of explosive trace detection and hand-held metal detectors as an alternative to a hand search of the turban. The trial is going well and we have been keeping the European Commission up to date with the results. My right honourable friend the Minister of State for Aviation has written to Ministers around Europe to highlight the importance of the issue and to draw their attention to the trial.
We hope that the trial will provide a sound basis of evidence for the EU in deciding on whether it is possible to change the European rules on security to meet the concerns of Sikhs and to ensure that they operate in a culturally sensitive way. The Department for Transport submitted a report on the trial to the European Commission on 28 June. The trial delivered good results and is continuing for the remainder of the summer at least.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Would it not be very simple for people who are especially vulnerable to be searched in private—in other words, to go to an area where other people are not present?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes a good point. Passengers may request a private search. I am confident on that point, but perhaps it would be helpful if I wrote to the Committee in a little more detail on it.
The trial delivered good results and is continuing for the remainder of the summer at least. We are actively engaging with the EU with a view to continuing to conduct such searches in this manner. I hope that the Committee will agree that the matter is under control.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Would the Minister say that the discussions with the commissioner concerned were very positive, or otherwise?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am very sorry, but I did not catch what the noble Lord said.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I think there have been discussions between the Government and the Commission. Is the commissioner concerned on the Government’s side in this matter?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that the Commission is in a listening mode, because otherwise it could be storing up problems for itself in future.
Earl Attlee
It is indeed, my Lords. If we thought that we would lose a large number—or a majority—of the experienced staff due to this change, we would not do it. However, I see no reason why aviation security specialists who currently work for the DfT would not be equally happy working for the CAA. If they were being invited to work in the private sector, that could be much more of an issue. However, they will be transferring from one respected government department to another respected organisation.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for his reply. I also thank my noble friends Lord Soley and Lord Clinton-Davis for their helpful contributions. The Minister said, I believe, that the driving force on the financial side was the principle that the user pays. Surely when we talk about aviation security regulation the principle that the user pays should not take precedence over the principle that we want the most effective security regulation arrangements.
I have not yet heard the Minister or anyone else argue that the current arrangements, which we have had for a number of years, are not highly successful and effective, as they are recognised to be. Frankly, if the real reason for this change is financial—namely, that the user pays—and is not based on improving the present arrangements for aviation security regulation, I suggest that the Government have got wrong the driving force for the change. Certainly I have not heard from the Minister any criticism of the current arrangements, any indication of how they have failed or any indication of how they will be made more successful and more efficient by the proposed change.
The Minister said that we should not go into detail about numbers. However, as I said, in Committee in the other place the Transport Minister referred to numbers and said that 80 staff might be seconded rather than transferred. I made reference to the view that was expressed that it might be better if staff were seconded rather than transferred.
Lord Clinton-Davis
The Minister did not say how often this provision will be regarded. When I was Civil Aviation Minister, it was inevitably the case that this would be reviewed regularly. I hope that this provision will continue to apply.
Lord Rosser
I thank my noble friend for that point. Perhaps the Minister will comment on it in a moment.
I asked whether the Minister could give an update on how many staff will be transferred and how many will be seconded and say why secondment would not be a better option for staff generally. I am not asking him to go into the details of discussions that are taking place, but he might be able to respond to those particular points. Is the Minister willing to do so before I withdraw the amendments? I intend to withdraw them—as I said, they are probing amendments.
Earl Attlee
The Government believe that industry will benefit from the efficiencies that could be gained from having aviation security and safety regulation in one place. The CAA has potentially valuable experience of safety management systems that are designed to manage risks as effectively as possible. We think that this experience, coupled with the skills and experience of the DfT staff, could bring real benefit to how we regulate aviation security in the UK. That move would also mean that the principle that the user pays is applied to aviation security in the same way as it is applied to aviation safety.
Charging the industry for the regulation of aviation security will align it with the vast majority of other forms of regulation, including the CAA’s regulation of aviation safety. The aviation industry already meets the costs of providing security at close to £1 billion per annum, so the cost of regulation at £4.8 million per annum is a small addition that could be neutralised by efficiency savings arising from the reform package.
The noble Lord asked me about secondments, which the PCS trade union also raised in its evidence to the Public Bill Committee in the House of Commons. We can look at how secondments might be used as we develop our plans for the transfer. However, we consider that seconding DfT staff to the CAA instead of transferring them is unlikely to help to ensure that experienced staff remain with the CAA when the secondments end.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Will the noble Lord respond to my suggestion that this provision should be looked at regularly?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that when they make a change, all Governments consider whether they have done the right thing. I am not sure about a formal review, but all Ministers look back to make sure that the changes that they have implemented are working.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Providing information on other modes of transport is perfectly okay, but I am a little worried about any comparison between aviation and other modes of transport. Having said that, it is important that information should be readily available to passengers. It is not a criterion that dominates their thinking at the moment, but it is an important consideration if we are thinking about ameliorating greenhouse gas emissions. Different considerations necessarily apply to different modes of transport. It is right to emphasise the importance of the ordinary passenger being able to measure the amount of greenhouse gas emissions from different modes of transport.
I conclude that information is one thing, and I am all in favour of it being expanded, but comparisons between modes of transport ought not to be disseminated. Perhaps this is gilding the lily, but I think that all modes of transport can make their contribution. I am not sure that they do at the moment, but it is a continuing process and I hope that it will continue beneficially.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
I support in general terms each of the three amendments, although I shall speak especially to Amendments 55 and 60. As the noble Lord, Lord Davies, said, in the background is the Climate Change Act, which he tells us that he proudly initiated. That requires a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions of 80% by 2050 against a 1990 baseline. That is a huge requirement. Given that the only way we know how to propel air transport is by turning hydrocarbons into carbon dioxide—and I understand that there is no prospect of any other way to propel planes through the sky—the 80% reduction has to come in other spheres. There is also the relentless increase in air transportation and the need for larger airport hubs, and so forth. Improvements in efficiency through using plastics rather than metals have a limit as to what they can achieve on that front.
If we are to get anywhere near the reduction in greenhouse gases by 2050 that we have set in law, people will have to be very aware of the consequences of their decisions between different transport choices. It is entirely right that information should be provided. Whether the public are increasingly aware of their climate change responsibilities, and whether public anxiety is set to increase, we will have to wait to see. I do not notice that happening at present, because so much is unknown about the future. How that will work out is one of Donald Rumsfeld’s known unknowns.
I am one of those who thinks that there are benefits of going more slowly about things generally. Even if it takes a bit longer typically, I prefer rail travel to air travel.
There seems to be a case for providing information so that people, whatever their view about the climate change agenda, can take a rational decision. It is perfectly possible to agree with all that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, said simply on the basis of the need to conserve a finite resource, oil, without signing up to the climate change agenda. Rather, one might believe that, in a finite world with an ever-growing human population, to be able to take decisions about travel that minimise outputs of carbon dioxide is a good thing in itself. In general terms, as I said, I support the amendments, and I hope that the figures to which they refer can be provided.
Lord Clinton-Davis
My noble friend has addressed a very important issue. I speak as someone who is partially disabled. Some sort of annual report is desirable. I am not sure whether it has to be dealt with in legislation, but there ought to be a clear obligation to ensure that the requirement is enforced. I cannot understand why there should be any opposition to that. I do not care whether there is a requirement in law, but there ought to be an understanding, if there is not a requirement in law, that that should be invoked.
People who are disabled or have reduced mobility are highly important passengers. At the moment, their requirements are not properly met. Therefore the proposition advanced in the amendment ought to be implemented forthwith. Again, disabled and reduced mobility passengers are vital and should not be overlooked. I hope that the Minister will properly address the important point made by my noble friend Lord Rosser.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, of course the Government agree that it is important that airlines and airports are sensitive to the needs of disabled people and comply with the European regulation which has been enacted to protect the interests of people with disabilities. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has asked a specific question about how the CAA balances its duties under Clause 1 with the needs of disabled passengers. The answer is that the CAA has to strike a balance. The reason for that is that disabled passengers are also users of air transport services, so they need to be taken into consideration.
Unfortunately, however, I cannot support the amendment for several reasons. I must highlight concern about how it would work in practice: my first concern is practical. The amendment is drafted in such a way as to put the obligation to produce an annual report jointly on the Secretary of State and the Civil Aviation Authority. I have significant doubt about linking together the regulator and the Secretary of State in that way. The aviation regulator and the national enforcement body for European aviation consumer legislation is separate from the Secretary of State in respect of ensuring compliance with EU law, and the amendment could be seen to compromise the CAA’s independence in that role.
The second reason why I cannot support the amendment is that effective mechanisms are already in place to secure the commendable result intended. I say in answer to the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Clinton-Davis that the CAA already publishes an annual report and corporate plan and makes a considerable amount of consumer information available on its website. An extra annual report on a specific area of legislation, on top of those more wide-ranging reports, would be disproportionate. The CAA is already committed to the principles of better regulation and aims to be as transparent as possible in all its work, including compliance with and enforcement of consumer protection legislation.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the future of the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee. The Government have gone out to public consultation on the future of the DPTAC. The consultation closes in September. The CAA continues to develop its capacity to help consumers and has advanced the setting-up of a new consumer advisory panel to act as a critical friend of the regulator as it moves forward in putting consumers at the heart of its regulatory efforts.
Lord Clinton-Davis
The noble Lord explained that there was an obligation on the CAA to do something like this. Do ordinary consumers have the ability to understand the obligations of the CAA at present? That is all-important; I am not sure that they have.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an interesting point. In a debate on an earlier amendment I admitted that I had not looked at the information that the CAA published on issues such as fares. I also admit that I have never looked at the CAA website, and I suspect that most passengers never look at it. However, several organisations look after the needs of disabled people, and I have no doubt that they will look very closely at all the information that is published by the CAA.
Lord Clinton-Davis
That is not good enough. There is an obligation on everyone in this Committee to understand precisely how disabled people, or those with reduced mobility, are protected. It is absolutely important.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, if the noble Lord will let me finish my speech, he may gain a better understanding. Also, I will send him more details by post.
Noble Lords will know that the CAA announced in April that the chair of the new panel would be Keith Richards. Mr Richards has considerable experience of disabled air passenger issues, having been chair of the aviation working group at the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee for many years, as well as a former head of consumer affairs at the Association of British Travel Agents. The CAA and the new panel chair will need time to develop a relationship, but, it would not be unreasonable to suppose that the experience of disabled passengers at airports and on planes will be of considerable interest to the new chair. I suggest that it would be better to allow the new CAA consumer panel to have the space to develop how it will go about its work, and how best to support and inform passengers, than to impose an obligation on it in the way suggested by the noble Lord’s amendment. In view of this, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment in due course.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Clinton-Davis Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the amendment seeks to amend subsection (7)(b) of Clause 29. The clause contains provisions relating to the publication of, and other matters connected to, the determination of appeals.
The current drafting provides that the CAA must take steps to comply with the appeal determination within any time period specified in the order. When none is specified, it must do so within a reasonable time. I am unable to support the amendment for two reasons. First, we do not think that it is necessary. Under subsection (7)(a) of the clause, the Competition Commission may specify a time limit in the order. We would expect it to do so if and whenever appropriate. Why would it not do so? Secondly, in circumstances where it is not appropriate to specify a period, it will be necessary to afford the CAA a reasonable time within which to comply with the order. What will comprise a reasonable time depends upon the context. There may be cases where action should be taken in fewer than 24 weeks and others where it is not reasonable to expect the CAA to take action within that period.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me to give examples. I do not have any to hand but there may, I suggest, be a requirement to provide IT facilities or some capability that might require the CAA to procure something. It simply would not have time to take the necessary procurement action, although it might have every intention of doing so and perhaps give assurances that it would do so.
Against this background, to set an arbitrary time limit of 24 weeks is not appropriate and may cause injustice. Therefore, it is prudent to retain the flexibility that subsection (7)(b) provides the CAA. This flexibility is consistent with our wish for the CAA to be an efficient regulator but to allow it appropriate periods of time to comply with orders. I hope that in the light of my explanation the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I have a certain amount of sympathy with what has been said but the trouble with this provision is that it lacks specificity. That is desirable in legislation. I have some doubts—perhaps the Minister can remove them—as to whether these sorts of provisions are capable of determination without difficulty. Perhaps I am wrong about that. The Minister ought to take another look at this matter. We are on the same wavelength on this. There is no doubt that we are in agreement about the provision that the Minister has in mind but I am doubtful about the wording.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am not a lawyer but I do not have any difficulty in understanding the provisions. I do not understand why the Competition Commission or the Competition Appeal Tribunal would not set a time limit if it were appropriate to do so. If it were inappropriate—the CAA might have said that it was already complying and had no intention of stopping complying—it would be totally unnecessary to impose a time limit. However, I would expect the Competition Commission to impose a time limit if it were desirable.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I do not know the answer to that question, but I imagine that if it was not done within a reasonable time, there would be a mechanism for the appellant to go back to the Competition Commission or the Competition Appeal Tribunal. However, if I have got that wrong, obviously I will write to the noble Lord.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I would have expected the Minister to say that the phrase “within a reasonable time” is used repeatedly in other legislation. Will he consider that?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the terms “a reasonable time” and “a reasonable person” are frequently found in legislation. The noble Lord is absolutely right.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Clinton-Davis Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Clinton-Davis
The lack of clarity on this point has been demonstrated today by my noble friend and by some noble Lords opposite. It is not permissible that this situation should prevail. I hope that the Minister will be able to demonstrate that the issues that have been raised will be tackled by the Government in due course. It is totally unsatisfactory that this position should be allowed to remain.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My noble friend will know that I have been pressing him to consider, in the context of HS2, the possibility of an extension around north London to reach the possible future hub airport in the Thames Estuary. This issue has been pressed not least by Foster + Partners, whose imaginative scheme is now the front runner for a Thames Estuary airport. Of course, communications and surface access will be important problems there.
While I have sympathy with what my noble friend Lord Bradshaw said about the desirability of improving surface access, that could not conceivably be a function of the CAA. I agree with those who have argued that. It must be a function for the Department of Transport because, after all, it concerns the railways.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I think the local authorities would have some difficulty planning together an orbital railway joining up the HS2 to HS1, with a branch to a potential Thames Estuary airport. It is a very imaginative scheme.
Having lived with the concept of a Thames Estuary airport for about 20 years, the first proposal put forward for it envisaged an orbital rail link around the north of London. In which case, therefore, you do not have a situation where people have to come right into London and cross from one station to another in order to get out to their airport. There is a substantial issue here; however, as I said a moment ago, I cannot see that this could be a function of the Civil Aviation Authority. It has issues that go much wider than what falls within their level of responsibility. One would suspect also the competence of the advice that they have—it must be from my honourable friends in the Department for Transport.
Perhaps I could ask one question. I have asked my noble friend if he would meet some of the people who are proposing to put forward the case for the extension of the HS1—HS2 to go around the north of London—and he has undertaken to consider whether that would be appropriate. I hope I do not misrepresent him. I wonder whether he is yet able to give me an answer: can he meet those who have done a great deal of work on this subject and would be able to offer very valuable advice that may well not be available within the Department for Transport itself?
It cannot be right for Ministers to keep at arm’s length, as it were, outside expert evidence that could greatly improve the quality of their decision-making. It arises only peripherally from this amendment, but we are talking about surface access, and therefore it is highly relevant.
While I am in some sympathy with my noble friend’s amendment, I am not able to support it for the reasons that I and others have mentioned, that it cannot possibly be the responsibility of the CAA to have to make provision for surface access in the way that the amendment suggests.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I am in entire agreement with what my noble friend said. The impression that might be given is that the unions involved in aviation and aviation interests are unmindful of the environmental situation. A great deal of work has been done on environmental progress, as I well know, having served as president of BALPA for 29 years. I recall meetings of BALPA over the years, and this issue predominates in its influence on events. I know that a great deal of work has been done by aircraft manufacturers, who are not unmindful of their ill effects on the environment and take them into account. The next generation of aircraft will improve the effects of aviation on the environment in future—and so it will go on. This ought to be taken into account in the amendments being moved.
It is right that some emphasis should be given to the work being done on the environment and that it should be included in the legislation. What I can say without any possibility of contradiction is that the use of the word “environment” is not simply a byplay on words but the sign of a real concern, which has been expressed by British Airways, in particular, but also by other aviation interests. It would not be sensible for any aviation interest, whether the companies concerned or the trade unions, to suggest that they are not mindful of the ill effects of aviation on the environment. They are, and it figures very largely in what they have to say on this issue.
Lord Soley
I am also sympathetic to these amendments. If I was asked to choose one particular amendment, it would be Amendment 6, because it links up the key organisations, the National Air Traffic Services, the Committee on Climate Change and the department. It is better if we pinpoint what we want the CAA to do and whom it should work with on this, so that we get an overall approach. I support what my noble friends Lady Worthington and Lord Clinton-Davis said; he has great and long experience in this regard.
The reality is that if you had asked the aviation industry 10 or 15 years ago, it would not have taken climate change anywhere near as seriously as it should have done. But it has woken up, and woken up fast. Because the aerospace industry is such an important scientific and technological driver, it has begun to leap ahead. So you now find, as the Minister will know from our several conversations when I have provided him with information on alternative fuels, most notably algae, that it and other drop-in fuels are actually good for the environment. There is real movement there. The new design of aircraft has made them much quieter and more powerful, so you get the A380, which requires a runway that is half the length of that required by the old 747, even though it was much smaller. It is quieter because it is quieter anyway and its fuel efficiency is particularly good. The effect of the emphasis by the aviation industry on improving has been great, and the airport operators have emphasised it too. I think I mentioned at Second Reading that when I spoke at the Airport Operators Association conference in about 2004, very few of them saw trying to reduce emissions from ground operations as a high priority. They now do, and they give it enormous importance. Look at what has been done at Heathrow with electric vehicles. They are all making efforts. However, I always put a cautionary note here because when we talk about electric propulsion, whether for trains, cars or any other operations, we have to remember that electricity in this country is predominantly produced from coal, oil and gas with some nuclear, so it is not as clean as we sometimes like to pretend it is.
Nor are we as good on noise. At Second Reading I mentioned the noise of the trains that went through my former constituency at 100 miles an hour, barely 50 or 100 feet from people’s front and back doors. That went on throughout the night 365 days a year. I have lived next to such railway lines, I have lived under the Heathrow flight path for over 30 years and I have lived by major roads in Glasgow, so I have experience of all of them. In many respects, aviation noise is a bit easier if it is reduced from time to time by runways and flights being switched.
Going back to the comment by my noble friend Lady Worthington on the emissions problem, some of the predictions that have been made about aviation in 50 years’ time are wildly wrong because they are based on the assumption that there will be no scientific development. If you take the scientific development that has been achieved now, leaving aside fuels and just looking at efficiency, you will get nowhere near the figures predicated in the horror scenarios. I say this as someone who has been worried about climate change for years—I wrote my first article on it in the early 1980s—but I have also seen how the green movement got things badly wrong on Brent Spar. It ignored the scientific advice on that and on nuclear power, which I saw as essential to get us out of the hole we were in.
I do not want to turn this into a long debate on the environment, but I want to say, as my noble friends Lady Worthington and Lord Clinton-Davis have said, that if we give the CAA a duty to work with NATS, the department and the Committee on Climate Change we are getting quite a good link-up. We all know about the problem of air traffic control centres in Europe— I mentioned this at Second Reading, so I shall not speak about it at great length—but we have 10 times more than North America for a similar amount of airspace. There is a great fight in Europe about who has to close an air traffic control centre. Believe it or not, no country wants to close one, so we end up flying in doglegs across Europe, which increases fuel use. There is some very encouraging work being done on this, but it would be useful to have in the Bill a requirement to work with the organisations, especially that contained in Amendment 6, which is the amendment I prefer on this.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Beyond the work of the CAA, does my noble friend recognise that without any prompting the aviation industry and the trade unions concerned with aviation are all mindful of the ill effects on the ground? Is it not appropriate that a tribute should be paid to them for the work they have done and will do in future?
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
I believe I just did exactly that. As I already said, I am very well aware of the work that the industry has done and will continue to do in both its own interests and those of the wider community. I merely say that the aviation business is very competitive. There are strong pressures—which I do not suggest are venal in any way—on the airlines to compete with each other and on the airports to compete with each other. If the CAA was not properly equipped with the right regulatory powers, those pressures could lead to some of the reduction in environmental impacts that we would like to see not being achieved either as quickly as we would like or at all.
It seems to me that Amendment 69 in particular is quite modest. I did not draft it. I simply observe that it looks fairly straightforward. As the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, remarked, it is deliberately structured so as not to place an onerous duty on the CAA but to place an obligation on it where appropriate to exercise this particular power. The point that the noble Earl made about the protection that it offers the CAA is very important. Could the Minister explain to the Committee on what grounds—other than in the difference between the regulated and unregulated airports—the Government have resisted and I fear may continue to resist this particular amendment?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the issue of aviation and the environment was raised by several noble Lords during Second Reading. I am pleased to return to the matter again and to give further consideration to this important subject. I have not tabled a government amendment because I am reluctant to pre-empt the Committee’s consideration of this topic. However, I hope that when we have finished the Bill the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will not be disappointed.
The noble Baroness almost fell into the trap of being political. She will know that we take environmental issues very seriously indeed and that that is why the coalition Government will not agree to a third runway at Heathrow. It is clearly for environmental reasons, particularly noise. This was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will state what her party’s policy is with regard to the third runway at Heathrow. Does she or does she not support it? I can assure your Lordships that I have listened to the points raised today and that I shall carefully read Hansard.
The point was raised about the drafting of the amendment. Yes, Amendment 13A was substituted for Amendment 12 on the Marshalled List.
Many noble Lords asked why other economic regulators have an environmental duty but not the CAA. Other economic regulators apply economic regulation across most or all of their respective industries, but the CAA regulates only the three London airports, as observed by my noble friend Lord Cathcart. Why should Manchester not be subject to environmental regulation while Gatwick is? If the CAA had an environmental duty, no noble Lord has explained to me, by way of example, what it would do with it that is not already done by some other means.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked about the publication requirements in Clause 84. We are not quite there yet but I will write to my noble friend and, if necessary, he can table an amendment to Clause 84.
Lord Clinton-Davis
The noble Earl has referred to Clause 84, which is highly desirable apart from one feature. It would be helpful to allude to that now. Why does the CAA have to divulge environmental information only if it considers it appropriate?
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, this is an important pair of amendments because surely the regulator is independent and should therefore be able to make its own decisions about whether it carries out an investigation and, if so, what action it takes following the transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent rules. If both paragraphs (b) mentioned in these amendments are included, I can see some companies being regulated starting legal challenges to suggest that they do not need to be regulated and that it is going to be very expensive for them and asking why should they answer this question. I understand that the Government have a deregulation agenda and are trying to get rid of unnecessary regulations, quangos and everything else, but this indicates that the company being regulated will be able to put pressure on the regulator in an unsatisfactory way. It is quite clear from paragraph (a) that,
“transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”,
set out how it would do it. Paragraph (b) is rather dangerous. It will be difficult for the CAA not to get involved in it, and I am not sure why it needs to be there. Perhaps the Minister can explain.
Lord Clinton-Davis
On the face of it, paragraph (b) is otiose. I have dealt with several cases in the sub-committee investigating legislation, of which I am a member. It is incumbent upon the Minister to say why this provision is included.
Lord Empey
Does the Minister feel that these two paragraphs could leave the CAA open to judicial review by disgruntled operators? They are adding something unclear with the definition of what is and is not needed. It may be intended to prevent overzealous application of restrictions on operators, but these days, one always has to look at the potential for judicial review, and I suspect that the way this is drafted might leave the CAA open. It might be possible to amend the first paragraph to meet the needs of the Government, but I hope the Minister will address the legal issue.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I must admit that I am puzzled by these amendments. I take it that they are merely probing amendments, but they are certainly not mundane. They seek to weaken the principles that the CAA and the Secretary of State must have regard to when discharging their economic regulation functions. Specifically, they seek to remove the need to have regard to the principle that regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed. To this extent, the amendment may inadvertently facilitate or encourage excessive regulation, and I am sure that the Committee will agree that that is clearly not desirable. I ask noble Lords to oppose these amendments today because they would remove provisions in the Bill that strengthen the adherence of the CAA and the Secretary of State to good economic regulation practice.
This first amendment seeks to delete one of the principles that the CAA must have regard to in performing its duties under subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 1, which sets out the CAA’s general duty. That principle is that,
“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.
The second amendment makes the same provision for the Secretary of State’s duties.
The principles set out in Clause 1(4) and Clause 2(5) are those that the Better Regulation Task Force defined in 1997 as in keeping with good regulation. They were that good regulation should be transparent, accountable, proportionate, consistent, and targeted.
These principles are not in the Bill by accident. They are a well recognised starting point and one looks to encourage those responsible for economic regulation to apply them appropriately. Having provisions in legislation that reflect these principles is sensible and makes clear what is expected of regulators. It is not only desirable but good practice to have these provisions to encourage the CAA to discharge its Clause 1 functions in a manner that discourages unnecessary regulation.
It is known that economic regulation is an imperfect intervention. It should be used only where an unregulated market fails to deliver competitive outcomes. However, used appropriately, it can be an effective tool. The provisions in Clauses 1(4) and 2(5) ensure that this is the case in the Civil Aviation Bill. Furthermore, as an experienced regulator, the CAA is not troubled by having regard to the principles set out in Clause 1(4)(b). Indeed, it considers it sound regulatory practice, as do the Government.
Lord Clinton-Davis
It would be convenient for the Committee if the Minister would say that he will have another look at this particular provision because, notwithstanding what he has said, it is not sensible.
Civil Aviation Bill
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are an island nation and our access to the rest of the world—and the rest of the world’s access to us—is primarily through air travel. That is why the aviation sector is so important to our economy. In 2010, goods worth £113 billion were moved by air between the UK and non-EU countries. In the same year, UK airports served nearly 400 international destinations. That level of activity is possible because over the past 30 years the aviation industry has changed to meet the needs of the customer. The emergence of low-cost carriers is one example of how the industry has innovated and diversified. There has also been an increase in the number of people travelling by air in this country, from 59 million passengers in 1982 to 211 million in 2010.
While the sector has changed dramatically, the regulatory framework which governs it has not. Much of our aviation regulation originated in the 1980s, and needs to be brought into the 21st century. The Government are committed to bringing vital reform to our aviation regulation. In a moment I will set out this reform in more detail, but let me first make clear the important theme that runs through the Bill: putting the interests of the passenger at the heart of airport regulation. For the first time, the CAA’s primary economic regulation duty will be to users of air transport services—that is, the passengers and owners of cargo.
The Bill introduces reform in four areas: the economic regulation of airports, the legislative framework of the CAA, the Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing scheme, and aviation security. I would like to explain each of these in turn, beginning with the reform to the economic regulation of airports. In the UK, the gas, electricity, water, telecoms and post sectors all have some level of economic regulation. Economic regulation typically operates through an independent regulator capping the prices that companies with substantial market power are able to charge and specifying levels of service quality. Much of the aviation industry in this country is competitive. That is how the Government prefer it to be. Effective competition gives firms the incentives to invest and improve efficiency, choice, and service quality.
However, a small number of airports—currently Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted—have substantial market power and are not subject to sufficient levels of competition. In order to replicate the effects of a competitive market on these airports, the CAA exercises its powers of economic regulation in the form of price caps and service quality requirements. However, there is compelling evidence that the framework for the economic regulation of airports needs updating. The Competition Commission has concluded that the regime distorts competition between airlines and should be reformed. Advice from an independent panel of experts and responses from three evidence-gathering exercises has further indicated that the current regime is not fit for purpose. I should also add that the previous Government agreed that reform is necessary—a fact that helps explain the considerable degree of cross-party support the Bill has attracted so far.
The most common criticisms of the current regime are that the regulation is disproportionate and difficult to adapt to individual airports, that the CAA is unable to respond effectively to extraordinary events such as volcanic ash or extreme weather, that the regulator is insufficiently accountable for its decisions and its priorities are unclear, and that the regulatory process is burdensome and inefficient. The Bill would remedy these problems.
Where the current legislation gives the CAA four separate and sometimes competing duties, the Bill replaces them with a primary duty to passengers and owners of cargo. Where the CAA is presently constrained by rigid rules that require it to set five-year price caps when regulating dominant airports, the Bill would give the CAA a modern licensing system. Under this new system, licence conditions could be tailored to individual airports to tackle specific challenges at particular times. This licensing system would also enable the CAA to reduce the degree of economic regulation imposed on individual airports if it believed that this would benefit passengers. For example, instead of controlling prices, it could monitor prices while regulating certain aspects of service quality. The new system would also enable the CAA to impose different regulatory time periods. For example, setting longer periods for price controls would provide greater certainty and could stimulate investment.
Currently, it is the responsibility of the Secretary of State to decide which airports should be subject to economic regulation. The Bill proposes that the CAA, as an independent and expert body, should make that decision against clearly defined criteria set out in the legislation. Another criticism of the current regime is the lack of accountability it provides for key regulatory decisions. At present, judicial review is the only way to challenge the CAA’s decisions on the price cap and service quality standards that airports must meet. Under the Bill, the licence conditions imposed will be appealable by the licence holders and materially affected airlines. These appeals will be made to the Competition Commission, thereby removing the need to go straight to judicial review. The decision on whether an airport is dominant will be also be appealable to the Competition Appeal Tribunal. To summarise, the reforms will deliver a new system of regulation that is fairer, more flexible, and more focused than the current regime.
I turn to reforming the legislative framework of the CAA itself. Measures in Part 2 of the Bill will change the way in which the CAA operates, improving transparency and accountability; removing unnecessary government involvement and funding; and cutting red tape. The Government believe that a more transparent system of providing information would be of benefit to the public. At the moment it is very difficult for passengers to compare air services—for example, to establish which airline is most likely to lose luggage, or which airport garners the most complaints from passengers. It is also difficult for consumers to find out environmental information about aviation.
In 2011, PricewaterhouseCoopers looked at the reports of 46 world airlines and found, for example, that only one-third reported on their noise levels. The Bill will create a new duty for the CAA to publish, or arrange for the aviation sector to publish, information to help users compare services. The CAA will also be given a duty to inform the public about the environmental effects of civil aviation in the UK. It is important that these duties are performed proportionately, so the CAA will have to consult on its approach and have regard to the principle that the benefits of taking action should outweigh any adverse effects.
Other measures to modernise the legislative framework of the CAA include giving the CAA new freedoms to appoint its own executive directors. Where at the moment the CAA has recourse only to slow, costly, and often disproportionate criminal sanctions in enforcing regulations, the Bill will enable the Secretary of State to give the CAA powers to enforce offences through civil sanctions. I am pleased to say that Part 2 of the Bill also brings forward a recommendation that was made by this House.
In the course of its licensing duties, the CAA collects medical data on individuals in the air transport industry. In 2007, your Lordships’ Committee on Science and Technology, as part of its inquiry into air travel and health, recommended that anonymised medical data held by the CAA should be made available for ethically approved medical research. Clause 104 meets this recommendation. Of course, we have built in safeguards to help to ensure these data are used appropriately. I urge your Lordships to read the appropriate section carefully.
I will now move on to our proposals to improve the regulation of aviation security. Keeping people safe and secure when they travel is of prime importance. At present, aviation safety is regulated by the CAA, while security regulation is carried out by the DfT. The Bill would move security regulation from the DfT to the expert regulator, the CAA. On both safety and security, the aviation industry would have to deal with only one regulator, not two. The move would have the further advantage of bringing the “user pays” principle to aviation security. The costs of the aviation industry should, as far as possible, be paid for by the people who use it. At the moment, the aviation industry pays for safety regulation, but the public purse pays for security regulation. The position under the Bill would be fairer.
The final measure in the Bill that I will mention, which accounts for just one clause, Clause 94, is the reform to the Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing scheme—ATOL for short. Over the years the ATOL scheme has given peace of mind to millions of holidaymakers who have known that because their holiday is covered by the scheme they will not be left stranded or out of pocket if their travel company becomes insolvent. However, diversification in the holiday market since the scheme was set up—in particular, the changes associated with internet booking—mean that it is no longer clear to some consumers whether their holiday is ATOL-protected or not.
Certain sorts of holiday—for example, those sold by airlines and on an agent for the consumer basis—cannot currently be required to be included in the ATOL scheme because they fall outside the relevant powers in Section 71 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982. So Clause 94 of this Bill would allow us to improve clarity for the consumer, by giving the Secretary of State powers to add more holidays to the ATOL scheme, including holidays sold by airlines and agents for the consumer. This should also mean that businesses selling holidays that include a flight will have a more coherent and consistent regulatory framework in which to operate.
The Civil Aviation Bill has undergone thorough scrutiny—
Lord Clinton-Davis
The Minister is right to stress the importance of aviation to this country. Does it not follow that the pilots are an extremely important part of that? Why did 91% of the members of the BALPA union consider the Government to be not supporting the industry sufficiently? Is that not a serious point that ought to be taken into account?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure it is a very serious point. I will be meeting representatives of BALPA shortly, certainly before the Committee stage starts.
The Transport Committee found the Bill to be clearly welcomed by the aviation industry, including airlines, airports and the CAA. It also found that the draft Bill has been,
“subject to detailed review and consultation over a lengthy period”—
and, although it raised some points which have since been picked up in the Commons, it found that the Bill—
“appears to offer a better way to regulate UK airports in the future”.
I look forward to debating the merits of the Bill with your Lordships in this Chamber. I am confident that we will maintain the high level of scrutiny that the Bill deserves and has attracted so far.
I beg to move.
Lord Bradshaw
My Lords, this is not a debate about determining new runway capacity. I believe that we can make much better use of the capacity we already have. In preparation for this Bill, I have been to Luton, Gatwick, Stansted, and Birmingham airports. It is obvious that there is plenty of spare capacity which can be bought online. Releasing capacity is very much tied in with having good quality public transport access. This area needs attention and probably ought to be addressed when the Government consider the HLOS target for the railway. However, the improvements to surface capacity—for example, between Stansted and London—would benefit a huge number of people who live in the Lea Valley and at the moment enjoy what I would call a less-than-good train service.
I wish that people would stop talking down—I am talking about what is going in the press, not in this debate—the ability of airports within easy reach of London to maintain good air services throughout the world. If we take Germany as an example, it is not necessary to have one hub airport which offers everything. Members will know that, for example, Gatwick now has two services to China, one to Hong Kong and one to South Korea, and one other which has been started recently. It shows that when there is competition between the airports, they seek out the markets to which Heathrow draws a lot of attention but which can, in fact, be served quite effectively by other places. Gatwick and Birmingham are not far from London, and Luton would be very much more convenient if the arrangements for getting people from the train to the plane were anything other than third world.
We support the general thrust of the Bill and, particularly, devolved power to the CAA and the extension of the ATOL licence to enhance the protection of passengers and holidaymakers. Does the Minister consider that the proposed charges are sufficient to eliminate the insolvency of the Air Travel Trust Fund? That is, the fund out of which people are compensated, which I believe has an accumulated deficit of £40 million. However, we are more concerned that the CAA should have environmental objectives and duties relating to pollution and noise. These objectives should, of course, be funded by airport charges levied on airlines. Again, is the noble Earl minded to engage seriously with the environmental issues of pollution and noise?
I am a little concerned about the words in the Bill concerning a market power test. When Stansted, Gatwick and Heathrow were all part of the British Airways Authority there was not much competition between them, but Gatwick has shown that there can be competition. It has 25% spare capacity and could be an effective competitor for a number of services from Heathrow. Unless there is market power, there is no need for regulation. Regulation is necessary in the absence of fair competition.
I want to draw the Minister’s attention to the scope of rights of appeal, which he touched on in his opening remarks. To protect airport investment in environmental improvements, many airlines will attempt to use the proposed appeal mechanism as a delaying tactic. I leave it to noble Lords to imagine which airlines might wish to avoid any charges at all, but they will have to be made if we are to meet the objectives. Of course, the environmental duty should apply not only to the three designated airports, but to those which handle more than 5 million passengers a year. That would include Manchester, Luton, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Bristol and Liverpool airports.
There is also concern that in proposing to control the environmental problems, the CAA will invent, as it were, a new bureaucracy. Almost all of the airports’ annual reports include reports about pollution and noise, as well as on things like the use of water and salvage. We should not seek to duplicate work, but simply to harmonise best practice between the various airports.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Will the noble Lord say something about the new generation of aircraft? Are they not bound to be able to limit noise more effectively?
Lord Bradshaw
Of course they will because every aircraft manufacturer is striving to produce quieter aircraft, and that we would like to see. It is not just a question of noise from the aircraft, it also concerns maintaining the right take-off trajectory and angle of climb, which can significantly reduce noise. However, I would draw the noble Lord’s attention to the fact that more than 50% of the pollution relates to ground access. It is not the aircraft, but what happens on the ground, and it is that area which I would ask the CAA particularly to review.
Lastly, I refer to the practice of stacking. What progress is being made on the elimination of stacking through better control of the airspace? It is not reasonable for an aircraft flying from Hong Kong to arrive an hour early and then circle around London. If there is a tail wind, the whole flight can be regulated so that the aircraft travels less quickly, which would save fuel and ensure that it arrives at London airport when it is ready to accept it. We should try to use technology and the single-sky policy to control airspace generally and thus ensure that aeroplanes reach their destinations on time. You cannot have trains stacked outside stations; you have timetables to regulate them. I believe that the same is true of aircraft.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I speak as a former Aviation Minister and European Union Commissioner for Transport and the Environment. Those experiences have some relevance to this debate.
It is absolutely right to emphasise the importance of aviation, as the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, did. The contribution of aviation to our economy is immense. The number of people that it employs—some 250,000 directly and another 200,000 indirectly—is impressive. However, in a recent poll, to which I alluded earlier, some 91% of BALPA members considered that the Government did not sufficiently support the industry. I hope that the noble Earl will comment on that, since what he said in reply to my intervention was wholly inadequate.
Safety standards need to be stressed whenever possible. Should this point not appear forcefully in the Bill? This issue undoubtedly affects the members of BALPA and will, like others, be raised in the meetings that the Minister foresees taking place in the near future.
New technologies and biofuels, about which the Minister said nothing, need further investment. The Minister’s opening speech was silent on this issue. Perhaps he will expound on it in winding up.
As many Members have said, particularly my noble friend Lord Hunt of Chesterton, safety is a vital component of an effective aviation strategy. Lip service alone will not suffice. It is simply unacceptable for financial pressures on operators to push safety standards downwards and the Government should say so at every available opportunity.
I turn to the question of fatigue. Too often, insufficient attention is paid to this issue. Jim McAuslan, the general secretary of BALPA, has said that its call to the Government remains that they must follow the principled stand taken by the previous Government and underwrite existing UK standards until Europe can come up with something better. I ask the noble Earl whether the Government agree with that proposition. If so, what is being done?
The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, stressed the importance of environmental duties. I entirely agree with his comments. It is essential—whatever the Government may say about this—
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I hope that the noble Lord will give way. In defence of my noble friend, the last speech was made by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart; the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare is not here.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I am sorry—I did not know. It is entirely my fault.
No issue affecting aviation can be considered without addressing the issue of Britain’s runways. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, does not entirely agree with that, but he is quite wrong in not stressing the importance of that issue. It is highly significant. It is a case of Hamlet without the prince, and it is entirely ignored in this Bill. The issue of where Britain’s airport is to be located is essential, and I make no apology for referring to it. No legislation affecting aviation should be considered without addressing that issue. Of course, I differ with my own party concerning this issue, but they will all come round eventually. My own party and the Government will see the advantage of making Heathrow a vital part of our economy in ways that it is not at the moment. Of course, the Government excuse their silence by referring to the inquiry which it has set up—and they are right to do that. However, equally, there is no alternative to expanding Heathrow.
Prevarication in action inevitably impedes progress and, moreover, it is immensely costly. In my view there can only be one candidate: an improved Heathrow. Its advantages are manifest. First and foremost, the waiting time for the start of operations would be far less if Heathrow were chosen. Then, further airport and aircraft development, both of which will inevitably occur, will enable Heathrow to derive huge advantages from these issues. Most significantly, there is no viable alternative within a reasonable time span. The Government, plainly, are playing for time in the hope that something—anything—will turn up. That is not a policy but the abandonment of foresight. The clear fact is that Heathrow exists. Undoubtedly there are some—even major—disadvantages, but any alternative regime will also have those. There must be, and can be, the possibility of overcoming them. Above all, decisive action and a powerful lead from the Government are needed, and sadly, at the moment, both are lacking.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we have conducted a full and wide-ranging debate on the merits of the Bill. Many noble Lords have made the case for the continuing importance of our aviation sector. The continuing success of the industry is essential to our economic growth. The reforms in the Bill have been designed to allow competition to flourish and for our aviation industry to innovate and thrive. The Government, the Opposition, the regulator and the wider aviation industry all support the Bill.
I shall now endeavour to respond to some of the points made by noble Lords but they will understand if I have to be selective in what I reply to. I am grateful for the thoughtful and generally helpful response from the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Rosser. I am very happy to accept that the previous Administration put a lot of work into the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, complained that the Government did not accept Front Bench amendments in another place. Of course, our roles are now reversed and I am sure that the same accusation could have been levelled at the noble Lord when he was in government.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned climate change. He and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will recognise that the Bill is about regulation of the aviation industry. However, I look forward to seeing the noble Lord’s amendment on carbon emissions and how they will work within the confines of the Chicago Convention. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, offered gentle criticism of the aviation industry. He will be aware that the new generation of aircraft is much quieter and much more efficient.
My noble friend Lord Bradshaw and the noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about the problem of stacking. The Civil Aviation Authority’s future airspace strategy deals with this problem and one or two others. The Director of Airspace Policy at the CAA recently made a presentation to your Lordships on the possibilities of the future airspace strategy. My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about the possibilities of other UK airports and, for his pains, he got a response from the noble Lord, Lord Soley, about hub connectivity.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, and many other noble Lords, raised the issue of capacity at Heathrow. They recognise, of course, that the Bill deals with regulation but I am happy to respond. The Government recognise the need to maintain the UK’s excellent connectivity now, and in the longer term. This is why we will issue a call for evidence later this summer alongside our consultation on the draft aviation policy framework to explore the options to achieve this. We remain committed to adopting the aviation policy framework by March 2013.
The coalition Government’s position regarding a third runway, mixed mode, and the planning cap on air traffic movements at Heathrow has not changed. I can assure noble Lords that we will follow a proper process in developing a long-term aviation policy which is in the UK’s best interests.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Is it still the noble Earl’s view that the Government are ruling out a third runway at Heathrow?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I repeat: I can assure the noble Lords that we will follow a proper process in developing a long-term aviation policy which is in the UK’s best interests.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Time without number it is reiterated that a third runway is to be ruled out and several other government Ministers have said the same. What is the present policy?
Aviation Policy
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Earl Attlee
My noble friend makes a very good point. That is exactly why we have called for evidence on hub connectivity.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Are not the Government suffering from infinite blindness? We have an effective airport at Heathrow, do we not? Subject to some improvement of access by road and rail, would that not be a far better option than anything else?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we have an effective airport at Heathrow. The difficulty, of course, is that it is running at 98% capacity, so we need to make it better but not bigger.
Airports (Amendment) Bill [HL]
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Lord Addington
My Lords, when I first looked at this Bill, I thought that it contained an interesting power and I was surprised that we did not already have it. Having listened to the speeches made today, I think that I am still in the same place in that regard. The main point that has been raised is that we have one hub airport. Before the previous election, I spent a great deal of time delivering leaflets in Richmond to promote certain candidates, unfortunately, unsuccessfully as it turned out. Anybody who lives in that area is not keen on expansion of Heathrow, with the exception of a Member of this House who is shaking his head. I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Soley, does not get much support when he raises this issue in his local pub, but I leave that on one side.
Lord Addington
If we are entering anecdotal territory, I should say that as a former London Scottish player, I remember occasions when large planes flew over the pitch down in Richmond and the referee was reduced to using sign language. Therefore, I suggest that people have grounds for disagreeing with the noble Lord.
To return to the Bill, the idea that we should guarantee that our infrastructure works for the whole nation is not the most radical one we have ever heard in this House. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to the infrastructure of different places. Northern Ireland has particular problems in that regard. It is incredibly difficult to build railways over the sea, to put it bluntly. Inverness may struggle in providing the necessary infrastructure and Aberdeen will have problems in this regard but Northern Ireland, particularly Belfast, has the worst problems to overcome. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will take this opportunity to reassure us in relation to where government thinking is on this matter. Everything has a cost but are we prepared to pay the cost of this provision? Everybody has a right to hear what that cost will be, and what we cannot expect to be provided. Who has been consulted on this matter? I am not sure whether the Air Transport Users Committee is still functioning.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I speak as a former Transport Commissioner in the EU. There are three Transport Ministers here; if I have left any out, I am very sorry about that. I am rather surprised that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, criticised the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for being involved with self-interest. I thought that politics was largely about self-interest and I do not complain about that at all, although I am rather critical in some respects of this Bill. I speak also as a former president of BALPA; I am now its life president. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, who introduced this Bill, has strong links with BALPA through his son, who is a pilot with BA. I am glad to say that another Member of this House has now become the president of BALPA, namely my noble friend Lord Monks, a former general-secretary president of the TUC.
I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on bringing this Bill before the House although, as I said, I am somewhat critical of its scope. This is an amending Bill to promote air traffic between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK and there is no doubt that we should be discussing it. My own view is that the noble Lord has every right to focus on these problems. He has, however, skated over some of the issues which are highly relevant as far as we are concerned.
Aviation has to be viewed widely, and I am bound to say that the Bill is a little deficient in that respect. Its intention is of course to draw attention to the shortcomings of aviation to and from Northern Ireland, but in that respect the noble Lord is really being a little too narrow in his perspective. If he argues that regional airports should concentrate more on providing air services to Northern Ireland, it is incumbent on him to be more specific about where and by which companies that can be prescribed. They will, in the final analysis, have to agree with what is proposed. Providing that evidence is forthcoming, which is a moot point, I am certainly prepared to lend him my support, for what it is worth.
At present, I am more than a little confused about what Britain’s aviation policy is all about. Will all be revealed in a few weeks’ time? Will the forthcoming Civil Aviation Bill provide all the answers? I doubt it. Unhappily, all three major political parties are dodging the primary question. All have declared their opposition to the enlargement of Heathrow. In my submission, they are all horrendously wrong. If we were to start from scratch there would be a case for examining alternatives, but we are not starting from scratch. The proposal by the Mayor of London to locate an airport close to the east coast is barmy, and is of course based entirely upon political expediency. I doubt whether any of the other so-called solutions will be viable, but we shall see.
The fact is that Heathrow exists. Like all other airports it has its downside but, like other airports which are in being, Heathrow is fertile for expansion. Heathrow is world renowned but at present operates at near capacity, as we have heard. The essential issue, in my opinion, should not be how we can rule Heathrow out, but how we can expand it while making life more tolerable for those on the ground. Of course road and rail access has to be improved, and I am convinced that that will happen. Several other ameliorative solutions have to be undertaken as well, but the airport’s future capacity must be enlarged extensively. That is not an easy solution, but surely it is infinitely preferable to the other options under consideration.
The next generation of aircraft must, and I think will, be much quieter. Some progress in this direction is already occurring and will, I am sure, proceed apace in the future. Those on the ground—the thousands of people whose lives depend on the viability of the aviation industry and Heathrow, including the pilots and those working in airports and on aircraft—will accept no less. All this is perceived clearly by industry, airlines and the many whose future is intrinsically connected to Heathrow, including BALPA, many politicians and others. We should not be distracted by other concerns. As far as I am concerned, this Bill is somewhat deficient in this respect too. Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt suffer no such problems and are busily extending their services. As my noble friend Lord Soley pointed out, it is incumbent on us to ensure that, at Heathrow, we do no less.
Airports: Heathrow
Lord Clinton-Davis Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
I am grateful to my noble friend. I am absolutely sure and clear that there will not be a third runway at Heathrow.
Lord Clinton-Davis
—will be available at Heathrow between 2012 and 2015? I would be obliged if the Minister could give me an answer.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am very sorry but I did not catch the first part of the noble Lord’s question.
Lord Clinton-Davis
How many slots will be available at Heathrow between 2012 and 2015?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. There will be no increase in slots at Heathrow, but the key point is that the number of aircraft movements is capped at 480,000 movements per year.