Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th March 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I offer support to Amendments 11, 22 and 24 in the name of noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, although I start from a very different position from him on nuclear power and perhaps where my areas of concern lie. It is important that we are talking here about ultimate ownership and control identified and verified. We are looking at ensuring that any change of ownership is clear. When I looked at the amendments, I inevitably thought about what has happened with our water companies and indeed with some privatised elements of our NHS, where we have seen GP surgeries sold off through a chain and sometimes the ownership and the sale have become clear only several times down the track. When we are talking about something as crucial, strategic and potentially dangerous as nuclear power generation, we need to ensure that there is clarity about where control lies—obviously, I am looking at that not just from a national perspective but much more broadly.

I shall comment particularly on Amendment 19 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, and the important elements in that about transparency of costs and ensuring that those costs and the spending are fully declared. I talked last night in relation to the Health and Care Bill about instances where public money that is paid in supposedly for care—in this case, it might be paid in for power—is pumped out into dividends through complex financial instruments.

Since this is the first time that I have risen to speak in this Committee, I want briefly to pick up one point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox: we are now in unprecedented times in European history. Since Second Reading, the events in Ukraine have taken place. At Zaporizhzhia, the largest nuclear power plant in Europe, a building—not the reactor—was set on fire during a bombardment from all sides, on the Ukrainian account, by Russian forces. The International Atomic Energy Agency has expressed grave concerns about its safety. It is worth noting that, even after those reactors are switched off, they will need weeks of cooling down. There are pools of spent fuel rods which require safe storage for several years. As the noble Baroness said, this has put us in a different situation from that of even weeks ago.

I will point to something else, for reasons which will take a second to become clear. There is an Australian town called Lismore that I know very well. It is a town that floods; it has always flooded. A hundred years ago, they built a church high on the hill to make sure that it would not flood—a couple of decades ago, they built a shopping centre that was flood-proof. Lismore has just flooded, with significant loss of life; both the shopping centre and the church have flooded. We are in unprecedented times.

I ask the Committee to think about how, when we put public money into a nuclear power plant, we have to guarantee political, military and climate stability—the last of which we know we will not have—for six or seven decades at a minimum. Does anyone in the Committee truly believe we can guarantee that we can continue to safely operate a nuclear power plant in six or seven decades in the world we live in? That has to underlie all of our debates today.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, as well as of course supporting the amendments spoken to by my noble friend Lady Wilcox, I support the amendments spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. In fact, he is in danger of changing my views about hereditary Peers—these debates are difficult things.

I support him on two counts. The first is in relation to beneficial ownership. Could the Minister say if this would cover ensuring that we could check whether countries we do not want to own these power stations are setting up companies in tax havens—particularly the Crown dependencies and overseas territories we have responsibility for? That has been happening far too often and we need to clamp down on that.

Secondly, I support him because I too was concerned about the scope of the Bill. I support what he said, and I am sorry that he was not allowed to table the amendment he suggested; I hope it will be picked up. I had a little problem in tabling my amendment; I had to change it and the one I have got down is not exactly what I wanted. I will come back to that later. The scope of the Bill has unfortunately been drawn far too narrowly. It deals with the purposes the Government want and are concerned about, but it does not allow us to deal with some of the wider aspects. So there we are—I support a hereditary Peer on two counts. It is a red letter day.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly on this group, particularly to Amendments 2 and 9 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNicol of West Kilbride, which I have also signed. I also support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, I come at this from a different perspective from him, but it surely must be right that we are able to identify and verify the ultimate ownership.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, set out, Amendments 2 and 9 seek to ensure that a nuclear power station cannot be owned or part-owned by a company controlled by a foreign state and being operated for investment purposes. However, I was a little surprised to hear her say that the amendment would cover EDF, because that was not my understanding. My understanding was that the amendments would not cover EDF, which is not operating for investment purposes, and that is why

“and operating for investment purposes”

is critical in the definition—but it would cover China General Nuclear Power Group, which does operate for investment purposes. I understood that was why the amendment was tabled and drawn in that specific way, but we can perhaps discuss that further later.

The main point here is the general concern that has been expressed on all sides of the Committee about the involvement of the Chinese state in critical national infrastructure, particularly nuclear. As we know, it currently has a 35% stake in Hinkley C and will have a proposed 20% stake in Sizewell C if that goes ahead. So I imagine that, regardless of our wider views on nuclear, we are all concerned about this issue and need some clarity from the Government on their position on this. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us how the Government intend to proceed with regard to these matters and also answer the important questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Howell.

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[Viscount Hanworth (Lab)]

The proponents of this amendment are trenchantly opposed to nuclear power. They are proposing as a condition for allowing a company to construct a new nuclear plant that a facility for the disposal of high-level nuclear waste should be available. Presumably they imagine they are proposing a condition that cannot be met. The proposers should be aware, albeit that they may have missed the point, that work is already under way to establish a geological facility for such waste. Three locations have been proposed, and there have been favourable responses from the people in the areas concerned. This was announced in a symposium that was held in November in Methodist Central Hall, a stone’s throw away from Parliament by Nuclear Waste Services, which is a branch of the Nuclear Decommissioning Agency. In fact, the Liberal Democrats have strongly opposed the establishment of a geological disposal facility. They have recently organised a petition of local residents to oppose a tentative proposal that such a facility might be created on the south coast under Romney Marshes.

Just a month ago, the Liberal Democrats ago voiced the old trope that nuclear waste is highly radioactive and highly hazardous and that the hazards will endure for millennia. They cannot have it both ways. Nuclear radiation is subject to a geometric or exponential process of decay. The more intense the radiation, the shorter lived it will be. On the other hand, a substance that has a half-life of thousands of years is only weakly radioactive. The methods that have been devised for the storage of nuclear waste can accommodate all these circumstances in a manner that can render the waste harmless. We have had various figures quoted for the cost of this enterprise, but the proponents of the amendment are proposing these figures as if they are a cost to be borne immediately. In fact, that cost will be distributed over a long period. If you take that into account, a very different conclusion arises.

This is an ill-conceived amendment and should be dismissed without further ado. We should not allow the legislative process to be entrammelled by such groundless objections and impediments.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I am not sure why my noble friend is so surprised that the Liberal Democrats have moved this amendment. They are always looking in two directions, and this is absolutely typical of them. My noble friend has been in the House of Lords long enough, and he ought to have got used to it by now.

[Viscount Hanworth (Lab)]

Yes, indeed. In 2010, the Liberal Democrats in the coalition Government proposed that 10 new nuclear plants should be built. Of course, they have totally changed their opinion.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 44 and 45 in my name. They have essentially the same aim as Amendment 3, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Oates, but would intervene in the Bill in a different place and at a different point in the process. The noble Lord was intervening at the designation stage; my amendments would intervene in Clause 44, at the stage of handing over the money.

We have had a very illuminating debate. I make the point that no one can accuse the Green Party of not having been being consistent through the decades about nuclear power.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

It was just that you were wrong.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Well, on many issues, such as the climate emergency, the nature crisis, concern about air pollution and whether we should have a living wage, we have won all those arguments over time, and I fully expect that we will make the same progress here.

The noble Viscount said, “Don’t worry, the costs won’t be borne immediately.” I point to your Lordships’ House having recently passed the Wellbeing of Future Generations Bill—an acknowledgment that we have already laid huge costs on future generations in terms of the destruction of the earth. What we are talking about here is like buying a property and then saying that the ground rent in future will be decided by a random number generator. We do not know what the costs will be, but those costs of trying to dispose of this material exist.

The noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, “Oh, we have the technological solutions”, and the noble Lord, Lord Deben, hinted at the issue when he asked, “Why would future generations dig this up?” We should think about what we have done to the pyramids and a great many ancient sites: here is this mysterious thing from the past and there might be treasures in there. One of the great challenges of trying to decide about deep geological disposal is the question of whether you should mark it or hide it. If you mark it then how do you convey, many centuries into the future, that this is a dangerous place? That is not a question that anyone has ever found an answer to because there is no answer to it.

I would be interested in the Minister’s answer to this. At Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Oates, said there had not been much discussion of this issue, but when I raised the question of a geological disposal facility the Minister told me there were four places where this was being consulted on. I asked him to identify those places and he said he could not, so I would be interested to hear any updates on that. It rather contradicts the comments from the noble Lord in front of me, who said that three places had already decided. I spoke at Second Reading about my experience of being in Cumbria and seeing what resistance there was, even in a place that is broadly pro-nuclear power, to deep geological disposal.

You do not make a purchase, particularly with public money, without knowing what the costs will be. I have some sympathy with the amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Vaux, about trying to make sure that the cost does not land on the public purse—except that the practical reality is that we have seen a great deal of socialisation of costs and privatisation of profits. The state will always be the organisation that has to pick up the costs because the clean-up and the storage have to happen and the state has to ensure the security of its people.

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[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Oh, no.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

Yes, I know—it’s boring hearing the facts, isn’t it? I apologise for not catching the noble Baroness’s eye earlier but I want to contribute briefly to this debate with just a couple of historical facts that might help.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for his words about the Liberal Democrats in the coalition. As one of the four people from the Liberal Democrat side who contributed to the agreement with the Conservatives, my recollection on that is that, as I am sure he will remember, nuclear power was to be at no cost to the public purse. That was very much the coalition’s starting and finishing point; I hope that it will continue to be so.

I have done most of the things that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, invited us to do to apprise ourselves of the facts. Indeed, back in 2001, with the active co-operation of BNFL—British Nuclear Fuels Ltd—I produced a short report, Cleaning Up the Mess, which looked specifically at what would be the best way to deal with nuclear waste; at that time, it was much more prominent in the headlines than it is now and just as intractable. We looked at some of the conditions needed. One is stable geology but the other, which the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, mentioned, is stable politics. If you look at Europe, only two countries —England and Sweden—have had even 350 years of political stability. Of course, the events in eastern Europe at the moment are a reminder of that.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

It seems to have been relatively stable in Scotland.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

I am sure that the noble Lord’s colleagues from the Scottish National Party will remind him of the Act of Union, which was subsequent to that date. Yes, England was a deliberate choice, but I will accept other places; it is hard, however, to find another place other than Sweden that has had even 300 years, let alone however many thousands of years we are talking about, of stability.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

What about Portugal?

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

Let us try Portugal. The Duke of Wellington was required to liberate Portugal from Spanish and Napoleonic domination. It is easy to forget Napoleon and Hitler and all sorts of things but—not that it is particularly relevant to this debate—political stability is important and rare. This country is one of the places that has been able to exhibit that despite our sometimes fractious debates on nuclear storage.

The conclusion of my report was that you need deep geological storage. It would be sensible for it to be in England. This is not, and never has been, Liberal Democrat policy, but my report pointed out that there was a big business opportunity because nobody else in the world—neither then nor, for that matter, now—had a good place to put their nuclear waste. I am certainly not opposed to having a deep geological disposal point.

The purpose of this is to establish the risk and the cost to the public purse. I go back to where I was in 2010—that there should be no cost to the public purse. We have gone backwards since 1999. Then we at least had a site and a plan—or BNFL did, which was strongly advocating it—but at the moment we have neither. We had a timescale; it would have been operational in 2024, which would have been very convenient for the passage of this Bill. Now it will probably not be for another 25 years, even if it gets a fair wind.

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[Lord Oates (LD)]

I thank noble Lords—some more than others—for their contributions to this debate. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell, who, while we disagree strongly on these issues, addressed nuclear waste seriously. One of my purposes in tabling Amendment 3 was not only to expose issues about and have a proper discussion around the costs of a geological disposal facility but because it concerned me, at Second Reading, that there was little focus on waste.

I perhaps should have declared an interest at the beginning as, many years ago, I acted as an adviser to the NDA. While I do not pretend to be a scientist, I have some understanding of this and say gently that there are many people, on all sides of this debate, who have an understanding and take different views. Noble Lords should not make assumptions about their greater knowledge to underpin their enthusiasm for nuclear.

On the specific point of my party’s position on this—again, rather than addressing some of the issues, we seemed to get into a rather unnecessary partisan issue—different parties have different views. As my noble friend Lord Stunell pointed out, the agreement in the coalition was no public subsidy for new nuclear and that is the position we took.

The noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, for whom I have great respect, was uncharacteristically partisan. He told me that I could not have it both ways, but I gently suggest that he cannot have it both ways either. If the issue of nuclear waste is of such marginal concern and I should not be bothering the Committee about it or the costs of it, why are we intending to spend potentially £51 billion—I imagine much more by the time we get to it—on a geological disposal facility? The noble Viscount said, “Well, there are things happening”, but there have been things happening for a long time on the GDF. As my noble friend Lord Stunell pointed out, we have gone backwards in many ways. I have also heard some argue, “Oh, actually, we do not need a geological disposal facility. That solves it, because then we do not have to worry about the costs of that or the difficulties of securing it.” That is not the view of the majority of people I have spoken to, and I have spoken not only to those who are opposed to nuclear but to those involved in the nuclear industry. Certainly, the international view and the international experience is that such a GDF is required.

All I would ask of the Committee and the Government is, if they are intent on going down the road of nuclear—I am quite open that I am opposed to it, not for some ideological reason or from radiophobia but for some very practical reasons relating to the problems; they are not about encased waste, which you can standby or store for 100, 200 or possibly 300 years, but about long-term disposal, as talked about by my noble friend Lord Stunell, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and others—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Is it not the case, when we are dealing with the disposal of waste, that more than 90% of it is already there, coming from the old Magnox reactors, and the new nuclear reactors produce relatively small amounts of nuclear waste?

[Lord Oates (LD)]

I have heard this from others, and the argument seems to be, “Well, we’ve created such a mess already that it doesn’t make much difference if we create any more.” They may create less waste than the old Magnox reactors, but all I am asking is that, before we create more of that waste, we have a way of disposing of it. It is important that we take that seriously, whether we are pro-nuclear or anti-nuclear. We will not convince people unless we deal with this sensibly. In terms of this Bill, we cannot know the real costs unless we understand the costs of construction and operation.

Global Warming

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes an important point. Of course we want to support workers in our emergency services, who do such a tremendous job. We saw some of that during the recent flooding: they are the first line of our defence, and we should support them in every way that we can.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned the Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill. He will be aware from an intervention that I made previously that many of us are concerned that the Scottish Government might be able to use planning laws to thwart the development of new nuclear in Scotland. Is it not the case that, if this is vital for the security and diversity of energy supply for the whole United Kingdom, there must be some way in which the United Kingdom can make sure that new nuclear can extend to Scotland as well? Will he look into this further?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I would be happy to have a further look at it and I completely agree with the noble Lord. I think the Scottish Government’s policy to rule out new nuclear is crazy, and what will end up happening is that Scotland will be supplied from nuclear power in England and Wales, because there are lots of interlinking connecters. The same thing is happening in Germany. Ironically, the Germans just announced that they were abandoning their nuclear stations, but will end being supplied by the huge number just across the border in France.

North Sea Oil and Gas

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 10th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I totally agree with my noble friend. I know he speaks with great authority on this matter as a former Energy Minister. As I just said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, we remain a net importer. Production from the North Sea is sadly declining. We need to make sure that we ramp up our renewable capacity as quickly as possible, but it remains a fact that we will still have demand for oil and gas during the transition. If we have that demand, it makes sense to produce this domestically rather than importing it from other, unstable, parts of the world.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm whether decisions on these matters are within the total competence of the United Kingdom Government? Is there any way that the Scottish Government could thwart them?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

No, these decisions remain a matter for the UK Government. The noble Lord makes a good point. It is sad to see the reaction of the Scottish Government in not being totally supportive of the tremendously successful North Sea oil and gas fields which, as well as employing thousands of people in good, well-paid jobs, also contribute large amounts to the UK taxpayer.

Net-zero Test for New Policies

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord that the competitiveness of UK industry is extremely important. The question he is asking is effectively about the carbon border adjustment mechanism which the EU and others are considering. I am sure that the noble Lord would be the first to accept that this is a complicated and difficult policy area. It cuts across various WTO and international trade commitments. I can see in principle the case for what he is saying, but it is a complicated area.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Does the Minister agree that new nuclear has an important part to play in achieving our net-zero targets? Will he indicate what the UK Government are doing in relation to that in England, and will he arrange to meet with Scottish Ministers to try to persuade them of the importance of new nuclear?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree completely with the noble Lord for a change. He is quite right to make the case for new nuclear. Indeed, the other place passed the nuclear Bill just yesterday, so it will be coming to this House shortly; I look forward to debating it alongside the noble Lord. I already meet with Scottish Ministers, although I fear that my efforts to persuade them of anything are very much in vain.

UK-Ukraine Credit Support Agreement

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 5th January 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Astor, who, as we have heard, has great experience in defence from his time as a Minister in the Government, and who has participated in the production of this report as a member of the committee. I include him in my congratulations to my noble friend Lady Hayter for chairing this committee and producing such an excellent report, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, and the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, who are also members and have distinguished ministerial backgrounds themselves. The Members involved in producing this report have a broad and wide experience in government.

I strongly support everything in the report. We need to do everything possible to strengthen Ukraine’s forces, including its navy, as a contribution to the deterrence— I underline “contribution” and “deterrence”—of any threat of further invasion by Russia. That is what we seek.

Congressman Adam Schiff, chair of the US House Intelligence Committee, has, as a result of his position, a fair insight into what is happening. On Sunday, he said that Russia is “very likely” to invade and can be deterred only by “enormous sanctions”. I agree with him that powerful political and economic sanctions will be needed and should be signalled now, because the matter is urgent. Russia has amassed over 100,000 troops on the border of Ukraine, as we know. As the noble Lord, Lord Astor, said, we also know from their invasion of Crimea and Donbass that they are not easily deterred. Nearly 10,000 people were killed and over 23,000 wounded in that aggression. Over 1.5 million residents of Crimea and Donbass are still internally displaced as a result.

Ukraine’s territorial integrity is not and should not be in doubt. It has been recognised internationally, including by the Council of Europe, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, the OSCE and other international organisations. Russia has also violated the UN charter and all the principles of international law with the action it has taken.

This is immediately urgent. As the noble Lord, Lord Astor, said, President Putin and President Biden spoke last week, and further talks to try to de-escalate the confrontation are scheduled for Geneva on 9 and 10 January, so this is a matter of great urgency.

However, we must accept that any military retaliation by NATO could lead to a disaster of global proportions and consequences too horrific to contemplate. The US, as the noble Lord, Lord Astor, said, and particularly the European Union and the United Kingdom, together must make it clear that there will be an unprecedented level of sanctions against Russia if it proceeds to invade. I am glad to see that the European Union foreign affairs representative is at the border at the moment.

The UK Government need to make it unequivocally and abundantly clear that we support such a move. I regret that there are, understandably, some continuing doubts about that. I fear that we have soft-pedalled on sanctions so far, perhaps because of the level of Russian assets and investments in the United Kingdom, and—I regret having to say this, but it needs to be said—because of Russian donations to the Conservative Party. That kind of thing compromises you and puts you in a difficult position. The Germans may also be somewhat hobbled in their actions because of their dependence on the gas pipeline Nord Stream 2, as the noble Lord, Lord Astor, said. So it is up to us—the US, the UK, other EU countries and the EU Commission—to take the lead.

Here in the United Kingdom, we have seen the ruthlessness of Putin in Salisbury and, most recently, as my noble friend Lady Hayter said, in his disbanding of Memorial at home. We know that he hankers after a recreation of the spheres of influence of the former Soviet Union. Most recently, in his 2021 state of the nation address, he announced his intention to seek a reunified Russo-Ukrainian state. If he is allowed to continue to use the spurious pretence of the defence of Russian speakers in Ukraine as an excuse for invasion, other countries will be in real danger too. Fear has already spread across the Baltic countries where there are Russian speaking minorities—a legacy of Soviet imperialism, which sent Russians in to keep an eye on local people. Other parts of the old Soviet empire, such as Georgia and Moldova, are now being targeted. Those of us who represent this Parliament on the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe already see the fear etched on the faces of the delegates from those countries. There is a determination and a strength, but we must not be in any doubt that there is also great fear.

If we do not stand firm now, there will be no stopping a new wave of Russian imperialism. However, military intervention in Ukraine is only one danger we face from Russia. The cyber threat is growing and could be even more devastating, including within our borders, with vital services at risk which could cripple our infrastructure and destroy our economy. Russia also seeks to destabilise the European Union as well as NATO, which is why it did all it could to help ensure a vote for Brexit in the European Union referendum and why, closer to home, it now seeks to help break up the United Kingdom so that our position as a permanent member on the UN Security Council would be open to challenge, as would other key roles that the United Kingdom plays.

The real and present problems we have endured over the past two years because of Covid, which we all know only too well, and even the threat of climate change could be relatively mild compared to this threat that we now face. We all need to wake up to this quickly, but I fear that the present Government may have become too compromised to do so effectively. I fervently, passionately hope that I am wrong; perhaps in his reply the Minister will say something to reassure me.

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[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and Department for International Trade (Lord Grimstone of Boscobel) (Con)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, the esteemed chair of our International Agreements Committee, for having secured this debate and for providing the opportunity to debate this important subject. I thank her and the committee for its recent report scrutinising the framework agreement between HM Government and the Government of Ukraine. It is a particular pleasure to have my noble friends Lord Astor and Lord Lansley and the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, who have served with such distinction on that committee, speaking today.

In line with the thoughts of my noble friend Lord Lansley and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, I am happy to put the agreement into its wider, proper context. The United Kingdom remains firmly committed to Ukraine’s independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity, and the framework agreement is a key illustration of that commitment. We cannot but be concerned about the recent reports of growing aggression from Russia towards Ukraine, with additional forces being amassed on its borders. As noble Lords would expect, we are monitoring the situation closely and are deeply concerned by the pattern of Russian military build-ups on the border of Ukraine and of course the illegally annexed Crimea.

We call on Russia to uphold the OSCE principles and commitments that it freely signed up to and which it continues to violate through its ongoing aggression against Ukraine. We have made it clear to Russia, and will continue to do so, that any military incursion into Ukraine would be a severe strategic mistake and would have a severe cost in response. I say that unequivocally in direct answer to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and others, including my noble friend Lady McIntosh, I hope they will appreciate that now is not the time to go into the detail of what our response would be and it would be inappropriate to do so, but I assure them that those matters have been worked through and thought about extremely seriously.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Can the Minister confirm that among the sanctions that the Government are looking at are financial and economic sanctions and travel restrictions and that they are considering targeting Putin himself, his henchmen, the oligarchs and specific sectors that will harm Russia’s economy, so that there can be no doubt that they will be dealt with severely?

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

My Lords, I can confirm that a whole range of sanctions and matters are being considered, but I hope that the noble Lord will accept that to give details of them today would not be a sensible thing for Her Majesty’s Government to do.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I accept that, but can the Minister just say that the kind of actions I have just mentioned are included in and have not been excluded from the options being considered by Her Majesty’s Government?

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel (Con)]

My Lords, I think I would like to rest on saying that a whole range of sanctions and other options are under consideration.

I was also asked about co-ordination with allies. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred to how important it is to have full co-ordination with our allies. I can confirm that the UK, the US and our European partners, with which we are in constant dialogue, share a common assessment and are deeply concerned. We are unwavering in our support for Ukraine’s territorial integrity, and we will continue to support it in the face of Russian hostility. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh in more detail about our contact with allies and on other matters that have come up; for example, my noble friend’s point about cybersecurity.

Noble Lords will have seen that the primary focus of the agreement is on the UK’s provision of support for the Ukrainian naval capabilities enhancement programme—UNCEP. This programme will enable the UK and our industry partners to provide extensive and valuable support to bolster Ukraine’s defensive naval capabilities. As my noble friend Lord Risby recognises, this is important—in passing, I want to thank my noble friend for his services as a trade envoy and for his kind comments about Her Majesty’s ambassador in Kiev. The framework agreement represents a continuation of previous discussions between the UK and Ukraine on its naval development, including the memorandum of intent signed aboard HMS “Prince of Wales” in October 2020 and the memorandum of implementation signed aboard HMS “Defender” in June 2021.

Let me be clear—I think it is important to make this point—that the benefits from the framework agreement are not just for Ukraine and are not solely about regional security, hugely important though that is. The UK’s contribution to UNCEP is consistent with and supportive of some of our key objectives at home. One of the components of UNCEP support will be the design and construction of eight new P50U missile craft, some of which will be built by Babcock in its sites at Rosyth on the Firth of Forth, an area which is well-known to the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell. This work will secure highly skilled engineering and shipbuilding jobs, supporting one of our key industrial sectors as well as contributing to the Government’s levelling-up agenda.

I assure noble Lords that our support for Ukraine as an independent state should not be interpreted as the UK being adversarial towards Russia. While we are providing a range of support to Ukraine, that support is essentially defensive in nature, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, recognised. As the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, said so perceptively, it is a deterrent; we should emphasise that important aspect. We do not want to undermine Russia, far less attempt to encircle or threaten it. What we want is for Russia to reverse its long-term build-up of forces on or near the Ukrainian border. In doing so, we are not challenging Russia’s sovereignty, which of course does not extend to Ukraine, but supporting that of Ukraine. I emphasise that point to noble Lords.

I note that the committee considered that the provision of UKEF support for the UNCEP represents a “step change” in government policy, given previous statements about not providing “lethal aid” to Ukraine. I should point out—this is more than just a technicality—that the framework is not about the provision of aid to Ukraine; it is about facilitating commercial arrangements. Although it is true that UKEF will itself lend some of the funds to the Government of Ukraine to finance the contracts with UK suppliers, the premium will be charged commensurate with the risks being taken on and the OECD’s commercial interest reference rate will also be charged on the loan. I believe that UKEF support for defence contracts should not be considered a step change but more a continuation of our long-standing approach to support Ukraine.

Our support for Ukraine is important because Ukraine matters, not just as an independent country wanting to enhance its defence capabilities but because of the opportunities it offers. As my noble friend Lord Astor of Hever noted, the UK was the first EU member state to recognise Ukraine’s independence, on 30 December 1991. It was on 10 January 1992, nearly 30 years ago, that UK-Ukrainian diplomatic relations were established. Since its independence, Ukraine has achieved huge advances in freedom and democracy, and our relationship has never been stronger. If we can support Ukraine to become a democratic, free-market success story, we will not just have strengthened international security, we will also have created valuable opportunities for UK businesses. Although much progress has been made on reform, further action is needed for Ukraine to continue along its Euro-Atlantic path and attract further foreign investment. I assure noble Lords that the UK continues to work with Ukraine on the necessary reforms to help it fully realise its potential.

As the Foreign Secretary said last month, we believe that trade is the key to unlocking countries’ potential through new opportunities for investment and job creation—in this case, those advantages accrue both to Ukraine and across the United Kingdom. It was with that in mind that HM Government agreed to increase the amount of support available through UK Export Finance for projects in Ukraine to £3.5 billion. If I may, I will let the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, know the full details of that and some of the other points he raised on the UKEF agreement.

UKEF, a great organisation and the oldest export credit agency in the world, has a mission to ensure that no viable UK export fails for lack of finance or insurance, while operating at no net cost to the taxpayer. I clarify, again for the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, that it is not insurance to exporters; it is government-supported lending to Ukraine. I can also confirm that the defence sector does not get any special treatment within the facilities given by UKEF.

Over the last five years, UKEF has provided almost £29 billion-worth of support for UK exports and exporters. I should also add—I know that noble Lords may be concerned about the safety of taxpayers’ money—that UKEF employs a robust risk management framework, as evidenced by the low number of claims on which it has had to pay out in recent years, despite the challenges recently posed by the pandemic and other shifts in the global economy. I can assure noble Lords that UKEF rigorously follows OECD standards and takes all reasonable precautions to avoid supporting transactions that might be tainted by corruption. How important it is to make sure that these standards are maintained and strengthened.

The importance of the framework agreement in this context is that it resolves what had appeared to be an impasse. Before the framework agreement was signed, Ukraine’s national rules governing procurement precluded it from requiring a specified portion of the goods or services that are the subject of a contract to originate from a certain country. Meanwhile, understandably, UKEF’s own rules require that a minimum level of such goods or services be identifiable as UK content before it can provide financing support to a contract. However, Ukrainian law permits for exceptions to its general rule to be granted, but this must be documented through a legally binding government-to-government agreement that is subject to regulation by international law. Hence the framework agreement that we are discussing today enables UKEF to consider the prospective support for the UNCEP, with its mutual benefits for both parties.

Although the effect of this framework agreement will be to enable UKEF to support the UNCEP, which is so important—I stress that again—to enhancing Ukraine’s defence, it is also expected to be the first of a number of framework agreements that will help British exporters access opportunities to trade in Ukraine across trade sectors in addition to defence procurement. I can confirm to the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, that this is the first agreement of this sort to be entered into by UKEF.

We know that there are good opportunities in the energy infrastructure sectors for UK exporters. There are opportunities in the field of nuclear energy, which could be worth up to £250 million over four years. Let me say that without the support of UKEF contracts like this will not be able to proceed.

In conclusion, I hope that noble Lords agree that, taking all these factors into account, the framework agreement represents a valuable addition to our range of international agreements, and one that will be of significant benefit to both parties. I thank again the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, and the International Agreements Committee for giving us the opportunity to debate this important agreement in advance of its—

Companies (Strategic Report) (Climate-related Financial Disclosure) Regulations 2021

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move the two Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I object.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)]

Is the noble Lord objecting to agreeing them en bloc?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Yes.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister’s Motion to move these Motions en bloc has been objected to.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I exercised the right that all noble Lords have to object to Motions being taken en bloc, not because I object to these two particular Motions being taken en bloc but because I object to the fact that, when the Leader of the House made a business statement earlier today, no other Member of the House was able to ask questions or make any comments. Yet it was a very substantial statement, and some of us wanted to point out that we object to decisions about who should speak virtually and who should speak in the Chamber being taken by a party-political representative—the Leader of the House—rather than by the Speaker. I was not able to make that comment; others wanted to make similar comments. I would like the Deputy Speaker, and anyone else who can, to raise the matter with the Lord Speaker, and I will do so myself. Perhaps the Minister will too. The issue is why there was no opportunity to question the Leader of the House when she made that business statement.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I strongly agree with my noble friend. This is not directly the subject of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, and I do not expect a comprehensive and detailed reply. But I urge him to talk to his ministerial colleagues, particularly to the Leader of the House, and make the point that—as my noble friend has said—a substantial statement was made that nobody could have known about: there is nothing whatever on today’s House of Lords Order of Business to tell us that the Leader of the House would be making a substantial statement. The essence of a sensibly functioning Houses of Parliament is proceedings that are intelligible. How on earth can someone in the Gallery know what is going on when someone gets up from the Bench, and they have not got the faintest idea who she is—I mean no disrespect to the Leader of the House—and makes an important statement, and the House continues as if nothing has happened? That is an unacceptable state of affairs.

I have, over the years, made a very small advance in this respect, if I may bring it up: there never used to be an announcement of the results of a hereditary Peers by-election. After much consideration of this revolutionary proposal, eventually it went up on the monitor and it appeared on the Order Paper that such an announcement would be made. This is probably the easiest question in the Minister’s long experience on the Front Bench, but will he talk to the Leader, so that, perhaps through the usual channels, we can get some intelligibility introduced into these important matters? That is all I have to say.

Professional Qualifications Bill [HL]

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, having co-signed three—and I probably should have co-signed four—of the amendments she has tabled. I will not repeat what she has said but I hope the Minister will answer her questions about why his amendment does not cover all the sections and exactly why the devolved Administrations are hesitant at this stage. However, I see from the report in the Scottish Parliament that it has acknowledged that amendments not yet passed might alter the position. Does the Minister have any intelligence as to whether the Scottish and, indeed, the Welsh authorities might be a little more inclined to recognise it? He acknowledged in Committee that consultation was effectively necessary, so it needs to be in the Bill.

There are one or two Scottish aspects where the professional standards are distinctively different, particularly in relation to teaching and, obviously, to law. It is probably worth commenting on the very disappointing decline in standards of education, particularly Scottish secondary education, in recent years. That is in no way attributable to the quality of training or the performance of the teachers, but because of the dysfunctionality of the curriculum and its failure to interact effectively with the exam authority, which of course is in the process of being abolished because of its proven long-term incompetence that has done so much damage to Scottish education.

This is not a question of pretentiousness or exceptionalism and saying that somehow Scotland has got it right. It is about recognising that Scotland is proud of the fact that it has pioneered an all-graduate teaching profession and certainly would not wish it to be eroded. It is also true that Scotland has had rather variable performance in recruitment and retention of teachers. Some years it has trained too many and not been able to absorb them, and in other years not as many have come out as are needed and it has had to recruit from Ireland and Canada. There is no suggestion that there is not scope for importing a professional qualification but there is a perfectly legitimate reason to say that, if the UK Government were minded to allow for them, they should take full account of Scottish circumstances and allow the Scottish authority to be consulted and indeed to comment on and shape things.

Similarly, Scots law—criminal law, land law and other aspects—is distinctively different. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, will know much more than I do about that. There are areas of law that are similar and areas that are clearly different. I would find it bizarre if a Secretary of State who is effectively in an English department felt able to pass legislation that affected practising law in Scotland without consulting the relevant body. The question quite simply is: would it not be better to make it clear on the face of the Bill that consultation would be a statutory practice, rather than something that is there for a matter of good will?

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, also mentioned European qualifications. There was an aspect of the trade agreement—the Brexit agreement—where it appeared that the potential for professional qualifications to be better recognised in future than they have been in the past was in the offing. It may still be in the offing. However, for that to be secured, it clearly requires a highly delicate determination of professional qualifications in the context of the single market and other aspects of trade negotiations that the Government will be pursuing.

I finally say to the Minister that it would be good to have reassurance that, in pursuit of these amendments, the Government will recognise that they have to take account of all aspects of professional qualification recognition both with the EU that we have left and with the other countries with which we are trying to engage, and not trade the one off against the other. Professional bodies that represent these qualifications in the UK need to be consulted in advance of that, rather than being presented with a fait accompli that may damage both the ability to recruit people to meet the UK’s needs and UK-qualified people having the opportunity to practise abroad. If we lose one because it is traded off against the other, that is not a win-win; it is a lose-lose.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie—if I have got the pronunciation right. Bennachie is a wonderful part of Scotland but he reminds me that maybe I should declare an interest. I am a proud father in that my daughter is a teacher and therefore registered with the General Teaching Council. I am just as proud that my granddaughter is training to be a nurse so she will come into one of these categories as well. I am not sure that I really have to declare that interest, but it is nice to say that anyway, is it not?

I am also pleased to be one of the three signatories to some of the amendments; in other cases, I am one of four signatories, with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. That makes for all-party support for the amendments, most of which are the brainchild of our mutual friend Michael Clancy of the Law Society of Scotland, for whom we have to give many thanks and wish him well, at the moment particularly. I was thinking that not only is it an all-party amendment, but that the route from Pickering to Bennachie via Cumnock would be a wonderful trip for Susan Calman. I hope you all watch that wonderful programme where she drives a little campervan called Helen, named after Helen Mirren. I am not sure if that is a compliment or not, but it is certainly a very good programme. I am probably running off the topic a little. Fortunately, the Chair does not have the same powers here as I used to suffer from in the other place when I was drawn to—

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I do.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Oh! I will see the noble Baroness later; I thank her for drawing my attention to that.

I wholly support what the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, has put forward. This is the only speech I am going to make today although I support a number of other amendments. I want to make two points. I take every appropriate opportunity to criticise the UK Government. I did so earlier today at Question Time, so no one can accuse me of not being critical when it is appropriate. However, today I join in with what others have said to the Minister. From all that I have heard from the noble Baronesses, Lady McIntosh and Lady Hayter, and from a number of others, the Minister has been really helpful in taking account during the summer of all the representations, and all credit to him for that.

My second point is that sometimes I feel in some areas—not in all—the UK Government are a bit better than the Scottish Government. The Scottish Government are not good at consulting. They do not consult local authorities. They do not devolve powers in the way that they should in Scotland. Scotland is a third of the land area of the United Kingdom. It is a big country. Scotland is not a unified, homogenous country. It is a very diverse country. The highlands are very different from Glasgow, which is different again from the borders, which are different again from Edinburgh and different again from Dundee. They are very different and I am afraid that the current Scottish Government do not seem to fully recognise those differences and take account of them from time to time. I am very pleased that we are suggesting two things today. One is that they should consult all the appropriate regulatory bodies; I agree with that. That is what we are talking about today in these amendments; I am in order now. Also, later we should consult with the devolved authorities in areas where they have competence and an interest. It is right to do that.

Sometimes we talk about treating them as equals; I have heard the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and others do so. I do not want to disagree with those noble Lords, but they are not equal. We should treat them with total respect, but they are not equal to the UK Government. The UK Government are the sovereign Government of the UK, and devolved authorities are devolved. There is a big difference between devolution and separation. The SNP tries to forget about that and elide the two, pretending that one just moves into the other, but it does not. Devolution is power devolved from the UK Government. There ought to be more power devolved in England; that is where the democratic deficit is.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Opposition have been clear through the passage of the Bill that regulators need statutory protections to ensure that they are consulted on the regulations made under it. That is why my noble friend Lady Hayter of Kentish Town tabled Amendment 3. Other amendments in this group, Amendments 4, 7, 8 and 9, seek to achieve the same thing. I had a very positive meeting with the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, a couple of weeks ago, and was happy to see a copy of his Amendment 13, which we support. It is welcome. The Government have listened, as the amendment requires the appropriate national authority to consult the regulator of a regulated profession before making regulations under Clauses 1, 3 and 4. We are happy to accept that, and my noble friend has no intention to divide the House on her Amendment 3.

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, made some very important points on consultation with the devolved Administrations. I very much agreed with those, and with the comments of my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock that we must always treat the devolved Administrations with respect for their mandate and the work they do. Equally, the United Kingdom Government is on a different level, and we are all proud citizens of the United Kingdom. I support the comments he made, and of course enjoyed his speech very much. I hope on his trip he will pop down to the London Borough of Southwark, a wonderful borough with historical connections to Geoffrey Chaucer, William Shakespeare, Charles Dickens, Michael Faraday, John Ruskin and many others.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

South of the river?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

Yes, absolutely. But if he cannot, I know that he knows it is a wonderful place and I enjoyed his speech very much. I also agree with the key points made by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, that it is different in Scotland. We recognise that. So I am very pleased with the amendment from the Government Front Bench and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Climate Change: Global Temperatures

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 27th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As the noble Lord is probably well aware, under the heat and buildings strategy, another of the Chancellor’s announcements last week, we have allocated hundreds of millions of pounds to the public sector decarbonisation scheme to go with the £1 billion that we have already spent in the past year on the PSDS. I could point the noble Lord to numerous examples across the country, both in London and elsewhere, of excellent schemes where the public sector is using these funds to deliver meaningful carbon reductions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

The Minister mentioned the carbon capture and storage facilities that have been approved. He will also be aware that the one that was most ready to go ahead is at St Fergus in Aberdeenshire, but that was not given approval. Why? Are the Government deliberately setting out to upset Scotland and the Scottish Executive?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I think that the noble Lord knows the answer to his own question. A rigorous process was gone through to determine which schemes should get the go-ahead. It is not true that the scheme to which he referred was the most advanced. An independent panel of experts studied all the bids. It is not the case that we are not going ahead with the scheme; it is on the reserve list. It will almost certainly proceed, but just not in the first wave.

Energy Prices: Electricity Bills

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 13th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

The Scottish Parliament, through the Green Party Minister Patrick Harvie—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Oh no.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

UK Property Ownership: Overseas Jurisdictions

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 13th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am not familiar with the details of that Act, but, as I said and will repeat again: the register of beneficial ownership remains a priority; the role of Companies House remains a priority; and we will come to this when parliamentary time allows.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Could the Minister explain why we should not come to the conclusion that the reluctance to take action on this and other tax evasion and avoidance is because of the very generous donations given by Russians to the Tory party and Tory MPs?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord would be incorrect if he came to that conclusion. HMRC and the Chancellor have taken robust action against tax avoidance and evasion and will continue to do so. Many of the complaints I get from people about HMRC are that it is too aggressive in pursuing individuals and companies for its tax take. So, it will take no lessons from the noble Lord in wanting to increase its tax take.