Olympic and Paralympic Legacy Committee
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That it is desirable that a Select Committee be appointed to consider the strategic issues for regeneration and sporting legacy from the Olympic and Paralympic Games, and to make recommendations, and that the Committee do report by 15 November 2013.
Mental Capacity Act 2005 Committee
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That it is desirable that a Select Committee be appointed to consider and report on the Mental Capacity Act 2005, and that the Committee do report by 28 February 2014.
Inquiries Act 2005 Committee
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That it is desirable that a Select Committee be appointed to consider and report on the law and practice relating to inquiries into matters of public concern, in particular the Inquiries Act 2005, and that the Committee do report by 28 February 2014.
Standing Orders (Public Business)
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That the standing orders relating to public business be amended as follows:
Standing Order 16 (Printing or publication of proceedings)
Leave out Standing Order 16
Standing Order 64 (Sessional Committees)
After “Administration and Works Committee” insert “Communications Committee”
Standing Order 84 (Concerning examining witnesses in perpetuam rei memoriam)
Leave out Standing Order 84
Standing Order 85 (No oath to take away the privilege of Peerage)
Leave out Standing Order 85.
Queen’s Speech
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, it is a great honour to stand here as Leader of your Lordships’ House and to reflect on the previous Session and look ahead to the new one. My first few months in the job have brought home to me time and again the importance of the contribution that the House makes both to the legislative process and to our wider political debate. They have also made me realise how fortunate we all are to receive such outstanding support from those who work in the House. To that end, and on behalf of the whole House, I place on record our gratitude to Black Rod and all the staff for organising such a superb day.
Today is a great state occasion, which means one thing: briefly, I get to be nice about the Leader of the Opposition. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for moving the Motion to adjourn. For the first two minutes of her speech, I agreed with everything she said; and while she and I do not always agree on content of what is before the House, I know that we have a shared affection for it and a shared idea of how it should work. I am grateful to her for the professionalism and courtesy that she has always shown me and the usual channels. I know how hard she works on behalf of her party and Back-Benchers and, indeed, the House as a whole, and I look forward to continuing to work closely with her in the coming Session. I also greatly appreciate the parts played in the work of this House by my noble friend the Deputy Leader of the House, and the noble Lord, Lord Laming, as Convenor of the Cross Benches. They, too, are fundamental to what this House is about.
In praising the work of the usual channels of today, I should also like to pay tribute to my predecessor, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, who was a mainstay of the usual channels for almost 20 years. He was a quite outstanding Leader of this House and leader of my party and I, along with many others, am greatly in his debt. Now, I know that my noble friend was sometimes accused of being wily. That is an accusation that I categorically reject. It is a grotesque understatement. His explanation to me of what it would involve to be Leader of the House was not wily: it was a flagrant breach of the Trade Descriptions Act.
In looking back over my noble friend’s remarkable career in this House, for which he was rightly made a Companion of Honour, I was struck by an odd pattern. He first became a government Minister in 1988, the year when the SDP merged with the Liberal Party. In 1994, the year when the Liberal Democrats took Eastleigh from the Conservatives, he became government Chief Whip. In 1998, the year when the Liberal Democrats overtook the Conservatives in local elections, he became Leader of the Opposition. In 2010, when he became Leader of this House, the first coalition Government for more than 60 years was formed between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats. Is this coincidence, or has my noble friend in fact been a Liberal Democrat sleeper for all these years?
That is not something of which I would ever accuse my noble friend Lord Lang. I am especially delighted that he said yes to the invitation to propose the humble Address, and I know I speak for the whole House when I congratulate him on performing his role with such wit and style this afternoon. For those who know of his early career, this comes as no surprise. A member of the Cambridge Footlights with John Cleese and Peter Cook, he went on to write scripts for “That Was The Week That Was”. What better preparation to be a Conservative Cabinet Minister than training as a satirist? First, as Scottish Secretary, and then as Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, my noble friend served in the Cabinet for seven years with great distinction. As a mark of his particular skill, he was the only Cabinet Minister I can remember appearing on programmes such as “Question Time” in 1997 without being booed. I say to my noble friend, “Don’t relax”—we might have to call on him again.
It is also a pleasure to congratulate my noble friend Lord German on his speech this afternoon. He may be a more recent entrant to your Lordships’ House, but he is no newcomer to the political world, with a career in Welsh politics spanning three decades. I see that he is also a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Cyprus, where I fear his surname may prove something of an embarrassment at the moment. A former music teacher, he continues to put his musical talents to good use, until recently chairing the parliamentary choir. To coin a phrase, where there was discord, he brought harmony. I am particularly intrigued by what I understand is my noble friend’s party trick of singing the words of one carol to the tune of another. This is, of course, a great skill for life in a coalition government. I will be perfectly happy if from now on he sings from the same hymn sheet as me.
The year since Her Majesty last opened a new Session of Parliament has seen the success of the Olympic and Paralympic Games and, of course, the Diamond Jubilee celebrations. Those in particular underlined the great affection in which she and His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh are held. They continue to set an example of public service which is quite remarkable. It was a particular pleasure that this year they were accompanied by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales and Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Cornwall.
I cannot promise that the legislative programme of the coming parliamentary Session will be as enjoyable as the events of last summer, but I am sure that there will be fireworks of another kind. I think that noble Lords will agree that in the gracious Speech Her Majesty set out a full legislative programme designed to address some of the biggest challenges facing our country.
The gracious Speech included a range of measures to build a stronger economy, to cut the deficit, to invest in infrastructure and to remove unnecessary regulation. It offered help for parents with the cost of childcare, help for those who have saved for their retirement and help for those who find themselves faced with the costs of long-term care. It will address crime and rehabilitation, national security, immigration and defence. A number of measures will be published in draft in line with the Government’s commitment to consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny.
Five new Bills will start their passage in this House. These are Bills to reform the care system, to reform the way that offenders are rehabilitated, to make it easier for businesses to protect their intellectual property, to ensure that sufferers of mesothelioma receive payments and to close the Audit Commission. The early business of this House will also include four Bills from the House of Commons carried over from the previous Session. These are the Children and Families Bill, the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, the Energy Bill and the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill.
I do not expect that all sides of the House will agree on every aspect of every Bill. I do, however, think we will agree that the Bills are certain to leave this House in better shape than when they arrived. Having taken legislation through your Lordships’ House, I know the very real change and improvement that its scrutiny brings. I know that this House will, in this Session as always, take its duties as a revising Chamber seriously and fulfil them wisely.
However, vital as it is, the business of this House is not just the passing of legislation. The previous Session saw a wide range of debates, some led by government Ministers and many more by Back-Bench Members, addressing issues of national and international importance, while our Select Committees have continued to produce excellent and thought-provoking work. Our new ad hoc committees have demonstrated the House at its best, complementing the work of the House of Commons and making use of a wider range of the expertise available among our Members. The same is true of the first dedicated post-legislative scrutiny committee that we set up last year to look at the statute law on adoption and consider draft clauses in the Children and Families Bill. Since the start of this Parliament, we have also seen an increase in the number of Joint Committees of both Houses conducting pre-legislative scrutiny, a trend which continued last Session, with five such Joint Committees appointed.
As Leader of this House, I am keen to provide opportunities for as many Peers as possible to participate in our work, especially newer Members or Members who are able to attend less frequently, so that as a Chamber we are able to make the most of their contributions. As part of this, I look forward not only to the House’s legislative work in the next Session but to the establishment of a series of new Select Committees, including three ad hoc committees and two post-legislative scrutiny committees, which will allow a wider range of Members to serve on a committee. We will also be creating new opportunities for Back-Bench Members to lead debates. This will include a regular weekly slot for a topical short debate on the Floor of the House as well as making more use of the Moses Room for short debates to double the number of opportunities for Members to have debates there, so I can safely say that we will be busy in this new Session. We will be busy with legislation, busy with scrutiny and busy in shaping our country’s political debate. As we set about those tasks, I look forward to working with the Leaders and Members of all Benches in your Lordships’ House. It is in that spirit that I am delighted to support the noble Baroness’s Motion to adjourn the debate.
Climate Change
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, I am sorry, it should be the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. If we have some quick questions and answers, I hope that we will come back.
Banking: Professional Standards
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That the Commons message of 24 April be considered and that the orders of appointment of the committee appointed to join with the committee of the Commons as the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards shall remain in force and effect in the next Session notwithstanding the Resolution of this House of 17 July 2012 and the Prorogation of Parliament, until the day on which the Commission makes its report on standards and culture of the UK banking sector.
Royal Commission
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, it not being convenient for Her Majesty personally to be present here this day, she has been pleased to cause a Commission under the Great Seal to be prepared for proroguing this present Parliament.
Procedure of the House
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Lord Sewel
Yes, I am happy to give that clarification. The new slots have been agreed. What we must decide today is how those slots are filled and who has responsibility, whether they are selected by the traditional method of ballots and first come, first served or by a Back-Bench committee. So even if the Back-Bench committee proposal is rejected, the new, identified slots remain. I hope that that is helpful. In conclusion, I beg to move that this House takes note of the 6th Report from the Procedure Committee.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
Would the noble Lord, Lord Butler, like to speak first? It might make more sense and, if he would like to do so, I should be delighted to give way.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, I think that I should defer to the Leader of the House but if he would like me to speak first, I am very willing.
I support the Motion that the House should establish for the duration of the 2013-14 Session a Back-Bench debates committee but I should first make it clear that I have no particular status in doing so. I was just one of eight Members of the House—who will no doubt speak for themselves—who put this proposal to the Procedure Committee. I also speak as a member of the Leader’s Group on the procedures of the House, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, which originally made this recommendation. I say that because one Member suggested to me that I was taking a lead on this because I wished to be made chairman of the Back-Bench committee. I assure the House that I have no aspiration to do that at all and I hope that the fear that I might be chairman will not deter Members of the House from voting for it.
It is also important to remind your Lordships of what the terms of reference for the Back-Bench debates committee would be. The Chairman of Committees explained it to us but there has been some mis- understanding. The proposal is:
“That the Committee be appointed to schedule debates, to be moved by backbench and Crossbench members, or by Lords Spiritual—
During the time currently set aside for balloted debates;
On at least one day in Grand Committee for every six sitting weeks in the session;
That the Committee schedule a one-hour topical Question for Short Debate each week, from the start of the session until the end of January, to be taken on Thursday between the two time-limited debates”.
I emphasise these limited terms of reference because there has been some impression that existing arrangements for Back-Benchers to put down Questions for Short Debate would be transferred to a Back-Bench debates committee. As the terms of the proposal make clear, that is emphatically not the case.
Speaking as a Back-Bencher, I express my appreciation to the Leader of the House for his proposal to increase the time available for topical debates and Questions for Short Debate. I know that he wants to increase the opportunities for Members of the House to take part in debates, and that is very welcome. The only issue between us is that, as the Chairman of Committees has said, the Leader opposes the proposal by the Goodlad committee that subjects for Thursday two and a half hour debates in time allocated once a month to Back-Benchers and for a new topical short debate should be chosen by a committee of Back-Benchers instead of, as now, by ballot.
I remind the House of the current situation by which subjects are chosen for debate in the two and a half hour slots on Thursday. The choice of subjects for debate on government or opposition Motions on Thursdays is made by the Government or opposition parties, presumably after discussion and presumably for their own party-political reasons. As I know, the choice of subject for debate on Cross-Bench days is discussed in the meeting of the Cross-Benchers. In our group, we often take a vote on the subjects for which we should use that time. However, the choice of subjects on Back-Benchers’ days is made by the random process of a ballot—a lottery. There is no rational process for choosing subjects that may be of general or topical interest and may make best use of the expertise available in the House to debate matters of significant national interest. As a result, subjects that come out of the hat for the use of this precious Back-Bench time may be of only minority interest and may even attract insufficient speakers to make best use of the two and a half hours provided.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
The method of appointment is not specified in the resolution but, for my part, I wholly agree with the noble Lord. It is right that such a committee should be elected and it should, of course, include representatives of all the groups in the House, as indeed happens in another place.
The establishment of the committee has been a success in another place. The Procedure Committee there says that it has been widely welcomed as a successful and effective innovation. The Government have said that they “agree with that conclusion” of the Procedure Committee. I suspect that agreement may be through gritted teeth, on the grounds that what has been done cannot be undone. I also suspect—and I hope that I am not doing the noble Lord the Leader an injustice—that the Government in this House suspect that the subjects chosen for debate by a Back-Bench debates committee might be more interesting and more topical than they would ideally wish. Of course, individual Back-Benchers should, and will, continue to be able to get unintermediated access to the Order Paper through Questions for Short Debate, and the Leader has said that opportunities for such debates will be increased.
Therefore, I urge the House to support the Motion for a trial run of a Back-Bench debates committee, as recommended by the cross-party Leader’s Group chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad. If we are eager, as we should be, to promote the relevance of debates in this House and the better use of the time and expertise that are available here, we should do so. My message to the House is: Back-Benchers of the House unite—you have nothing to lose but your chains.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I am grateful to the Lord Chairman for his introduction and to the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, for getting our debate under way. It is extremely good to see a former Cabinet Secretary, who operated at the highest levels within Whitehall for many years, not always in the glare of transparency, openness and accountability, arguing for it so forcefully this afternoon. Like him, and in response to the point made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Peston, I am very glad that we have this opportunity for the whole House to decide how it wants to move ahead in organising Back-Bench debates. It is good that we have a full House today to discuss it, and it will be good to reach a clear decision later this afternoon as to how we want to proceed.
I am aware that the question the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, and other noble Lords have raised about whether to have a Back-Bench debates committee or not has been hanging around for some time. As a new Leader, I am keen that we should answer it then plan accordingly. I do not want to speak for very long because this is above all a Back-Bench occasion, but I would quite like to do three simple things, if I may. First, I will explain the proposals for the new time for debates that I have made. Secondly, I should like to clear up any misunderstandings that there might be about how our current arrangements work. Thirdly, I will set out what I think is the issue of principle on which we all need to decide today.
When I started thinking about this for my first Procedure Committee meeting, I was struck by the arguments that have been made in favour of having more topical debates and, indeed, for creating more opportunities for Back-Bench Members to initiate debates more generally. I thought those arguments were absolutely right and, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said, I am extremely keen to provide opportunities for as many Peers as possible, especially newer Members or those who are not able to attend the House as frequently as others, so that as a Chamber we are able to make the best possible use of the full range of contributions that we have at our disposal.
Therefore, as fast as I could, I came forward with two proposals. One was to create a new, regular weekly slot for a topical short debate on the Floor of the House, which I have suggested could also provide a route for getting a prompt debate on a Select Committee report. This would increase the number of short debates on the Floor of the House by about half. The second was to make more use of the Moses Room for short debates, thereby doubling the number of opportunities for Members to have debates there. So there would be more time for topical debates, guaranteed time on the Floor of the House and capacity for twice as many short debates in Grand Committee.
These proposals for additional time for Back-Bench debates were welcomed by the Procedure Committee and, to be clear, they are not at issue today; they apply equally to whatever the House decides. I think this was the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. The decision before us therefore, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said, is how we want this offer of additional time, plus the time that is already set aside for monthly balloted debates, to be used. Do we want it to be allocated in future by a Back-Bench debates committee or do we want it to be allocated broadly along current lines?
Let me say a few words about our current arrangements, as I am not sure that they are always well understood and I think there is a feeling that they are less transparent than perhaps they are. For short debates, Members are free to choose any subject that they want: they simply put their Question down on a waiting list, which is printed in House of Lords Business, and are taken in turn. For balloted debates, Members pick their topic and put the Motion into a ballot which is drawn by the clerks for a particular day. The key feature of these two processes is that neither the identity of the sponsoring Member nor the particular topic that they have chosen has any bearing on their prospects of securing a debate. All entries to the ballot have an equal chance of being drawn. All entries on the waiting list for short debates are offered time in the order in which they were tabled, subject only to a practical constraint that a Minister and shadow Minister must be available to participate and that Members waiting for their first short debate of the Session come before those waiting for their second.
To be crystal clear on this point, there is no selection by the government Chief Whip or the usual channels on merit, personality, party, group or personal profile, or on anything else. This principle—that the views of individual Peers matter and that they should all have an equal chance to pursue subjects they care about and get them debated in our House—is at the heart of how we think of ourselves as a House. It is particularly important for Members who are less well known or who are able to attend less often, who might find it harder to persuade a committee of the merits of the case. Our current approach means that we end up with debates on a wide range of subjects, from the treatment of homosexual men in developing countries to the future of English cathedrals. This allows for the independent-minded, for the quirky and for the whole range of outlooks and experience on which this House is able to draw and which, I believe, is its particular strength.
I agree with the point that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, made—I am sure that other noble Lords will make it later on—in that I do not take the view that everything in our current arrangements is perfect and cannot be improved. I take the point, for instance, that ballots can sometimes produce debates that are undersubscribed. I do not think that our processes are clear enough to the very Members they are intended to serve. However, there are practical steps we could take to mitigate those potential difficulties and which we could discuss in the Procedure Committee. I hope I have made it clear that I am keen to do that if that is what the House would like.
Lord Crickhowell
My Lords, can my noble friend go a little further on this very point? At the moment he got to it, I was reading the sentence in his letter which said that,
“there are reforms we could make—for instance, to ensure that debates drawn by ballot command sufficient interest in the House”.
He has now said that this is a matter we can discuss in the committee. We need a little more clarification about what he has in mind on that point, as it really is central to the argument put to us by the noble Lord, Lord Butler.
Lord Hill of Oareford
As the Chairman of Committees made clear earlier, on both proposals some of the precise details of how one can address these points will need to be worked through. For example, it would be possible to have criteria around the amount of support that there was for a particular balloted Motion, such as the number of people. It is also the case—this is why one would need to work this through and come back to the House before going nap on it, because that is also extremely important—that, as the Procedure Committee knows only too well, every suggestion that might address a particular problem can give rise to another set of problems. That is the kind of thing we would need to address.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
At the moment I am somewhat neutral and not at all sure which way I would want to vote. One point that is made by the sixth report, and which was put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, concerns dealing with issues that are either topical or of long-term national importance. The difficulty about the ballot is that you cannot get those issues in, perhaps at rather short notice, for an hour’s debate. How would the noble Lord expect that issue to be dealt with?
Lord Hill of Oareford
On the principle of having to set some criteria, for example on identifying topicality, I shall just go back one stage. I am very glad to have been able to come up with this new proposal for guaranteed time, once a week, to deal with a topical issue on the Floor of the House. I very much accept that we need an opportunity to do that. One would need to establish some points around topicality in exactly the same way as a Back-Bench debates committee will have to come up with a set of criteria within which it would operate in choosing those debates. I accept that we would need to do that work; I would need to come back and show the House those processes.
Lord Campbell-Savours
The noble Lord referred earlier to the quirky. How will the quirky meet these new criteria? He prayed in aid the need for the quirky Motion to be tabled. How would that work?
Lord Hill of Oareford
There are a number of different points there. I certainly used the word quirky—I quite like quirky. This goes to the heart of the issue of having a rational process. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, talked persuasively in some ways about wanting a rational process. That could obviously mean a process that can lead, over time, to confirmation around a kind of norm. It could lead to a group of people’s sense of what is rational being superimposed on that of others. On retaining quirkiness, we are more likely to have quirkiness in balloted debates and on QSDs more generally if we do not have a sifting process. The topical slot is a different matter.
Lord Tyler
I am following my noble friend very closely because I have some sympathy with his point of view and I pay tribute to him for bringing forward some extremely interesting proposals. However, the House does itself no good service by constantly referring to this process as a ballot. It is not a ballot, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said. It is a random process. Anyone listening to this debate would think that there was some estimate of support and merit for the proposals that come before the House. Can we please get away from this suggestion that we somehow ballot to see whether there is merit in a particular suggestion? Even on the quirky issues to which the noble Lord refers—I have some sympathy, being a quirky sort of guy—we do not get any opportunity to assess the quirkiness of a Motion because we do not have a ballot.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, we do have a ballot. I have had this conversation before with my noble friend, who I know takes the view that it is a lottery rather than a ballot. It is a ballot by definition, one in which everyone has an equal chance and does not need to persuade others of the merit of their case or the wisdom of the topic that they want to debate. They have an equal chance among all their peers.
Lord Filkin
My Lords, I appreciate what the noble Lord the Leader has done in seeking to respond to the pressure for more Back-Bench debates and time. That is utterly commendable. However, he is proposing a mechanism whereby we would still have a lottery in which we chose from topics that were judged to be topical. Who will decide that topicality question? Clearly, from previous discussions, that topicality would have to be decided by the clerks, under whatever guidance the House had given them. That puts them in the invidious position of making a judgment about whether an issue is topical, and it would be much better if such judgments were made by the House itself by the only mechanism that it can—through a properly appointed committee.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, topical Questions each week are dealt with in precisely that way. As I have said, we would need to agree in the Procedure Committee, in just the same way as we would if we end up with a Back-Bench debates committee, the criteria by which that committee will reach decisions, because the House will want to know on what basis the judgments that the Back-Bench debates committee is making are being determined. At an earlier stage, the proposal for the Back-Bench debates committee was that it would make the consideration and would not have to give reasons, perfectly properly, for why it had reached its decisions. Whichever route we go down, we will have to have a set of criteria within which we operate, so that the House knows what the basis of the decision is.
My point, though, is that I am not proposing new procedures. The proponents of a Back-Bench debates committee are proposing a new procedure. I am effectively saying that we would still have the way in which we have already operated for a long time. There could be some improvements in terms of different criteria, cut-offs and so on, if that is what people want to pursue, but we would fundamentally stick with the current system. It is those who want to change the system who are proposing the innovation.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader has referred several times to the establishment by the Procedure Committee of some sort of guidance. To whom is the guidance given in this system if we do not have a Back-Bench committee? I do not follow this. I understand the lottery and I understand the Back-Bench committee but, if I do not like the interpretation of the guidance that leads to a particular result, to whom do I complain?
Lord Hill of Oareford
The guidance would be available to Members of the House in the same way as our guidance is currently available to Members of the House.
To move on, the issue of principle on which we are being asked to decide today is simple: do we want to stand by our current approach or do we want to introduce a new filtering mechanism for this new package of time, whereby a Back-Bench debates committee makes these decisions and decides what will be debated on behalf of us all? That, in essence, is what we are being asked to decide.
I want to make one final point, and then I know that the House would like to hear from Back-Benchers. Those in favour of a Back-Bench debates committee will obviously want to vote in favour of the Motion for resolution before the House. Those who are not in favour will want to vote against when the Lord Chairman moves it. For those who are not sure once they have heard all the arguments, it would be possible to stick with our current overall approach, perhaps refined in some respects, and see how the proposals for a guaranteed regular slot for a topical debate and more debates in the Moses Room bed down. In the light of that experience, it would of course be open to those who still favour a Back-Bench debates committee to bring forward those proposals again.
I hope that I have set out some of the background, explained the proposals and highlighted the essence of the decision that we are being asked to take. I am sure that we will hear some powerful speeches. I look forward to us reaching a decision on this matter of principle, but most of all to being able to crack on in the new Session with the new opportunities for debate that I have identified.
Lord Peston
My Lords, I intervene as one of the more naive Members of your Lordships’ House. When I first heard of the proposal to set up a Back-Bench debates committee, particularly given its provenance, notably with the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, I assumed that it would go through your Lordships’ House on the nod. I am astonished today to find that the Leader of the House, who, I do not have to remind your Lordships, is the Leader of the House and for these purposes not the leader of the Tory Members of the House, has not taken the lead in pressing for this committee.
Lord Hill of Oareford
There is just one thing that I want to make clear. I have been extremely keen to make progress. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, implied that I am seeking to speak on behalf of the views of one party group. I should say to the House, and I should have said it before, that I know that there are a number of people in my party who are in favour of a Back-Bench debates committee. I also know that there are a number of members of his party, on the Cross-Benches and in all groups who have come to me expressing concerns about the idea of a Back-Bench debates committee. All I have sought to do is make sure that they have an opportunity to explore those issues and then the whole House can reach a decision.
Lord Peston
It is my dear wish, which I think is that of all noble Lords, that there should not be a party-political element to our debate. That is the point that I was trying to make. What was troubling me is that I did not hear the noble Lord say what he has now said: that that should not be the case. The debate needs to be judged on its merits.
Part of its merits is definitely the provenance of the committee. A committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, is not some minor committee, not one that would not have deliberated fully, but one that would have come up with the right answer. That is the answer that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, has presented to your Lordships. I know that I do not have to repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Butler, has said. I have no interest in being on this committee. I have better things to do. I have no interest in being chairman of the committee, so I can speak openly.
What matters to me is that your Lordships should be using these slots for important debates. We have been reminded that they are pre-determined; there is no argument about the slots being there. We differ on what we regard as important. I have been waiting for someone to put forward a debate on the present crisis in economics, but my guess is that virtually no one will be interested in debating it. Perhaps that is why it has not come forward. Why do we not trust our own colleagues to be on a committee to which they will be elected by the different groups in the House? Why do we not trust them to come to the right answer in terms of both fundamentals and topicality? I am reminded of that great classic work, Microcosmographica Academica, where it is argued, basically in connection with the universities, that nothing should ever be done for the first time. I heard real echoes of that in the speech of the noble Lord the Leader of the House.
We really ought to make up our minds today, yes or no. We should not do it politically in any way whatever. We certainly should not do it either because we do not want to embarrass the Government, or because, when we are the Government, we do not want to be embarrassed. We want to use this time in a valuable way so that we can make contributions to the subjects and ensure that the subjects are worth making a contribution to.
If we divide, I will vote for setting up the committee. I know that I am an old fogey on this, but I would be much happier if we did not have a vote but just all agreed, as I implied, that we would accept this on the nod, because there are certain things where a vote is not the right thing. This House has a great tradition of sometimes just getting things right. I think that this is the right thing to do, and I very much hope that we do it.
Iraq: Chilcot Inquiry
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Lord Dykes
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will hold discussions with the administrators of the Chilcot inquiry into the Iraq war to ascertain a date for publication.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, the Government do not have any plans to hold such a discussion with the Iraq inquiry. Sir John Chilcot advised the Prime Minister last July that the inquiry would be in a position to begin the process of giving those subject to criticism in the report the opportunity to make representations by the middle of 2013, and that the inquiry would submit its report once that process had been completed.
Lord Dykes
With thanks for that Answer, can the Leader of the House reassure the House on a very important point—that high official circles in the UK and the US have not sought to interfere with the independent findings of the Chilcot inquiry, especially on the crucial decision to go to war together?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I can give that assurance. It is extremely important that this inquiry is independent; it was set up very deliberately to be independent and it must have that independence. It must consider the evidence that it has and reach its conclusions, which we will all be able to see in the fullness of time, but it must have a free hand to do that.
Lord Morris of Aberavon
My Lords, having been involved in the setting up of some public inquiries, I have noticed a tendency for them to be longer and longer. I understand the need to collect all the material evidence, and for all due processes to take place. In future, if any public inquiry is set up, should not a time limit be imposed and, furthermore, an extension granted only in exceptional circumstances?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I understand that point. However, with some of these very big inquiries it is difficult to be absolutely clear at the outset about what a suitable length of time is. It is right that the Chilcot inquiry on Iraq has been able to follow the leads that it feels it needs to follow, and had the time to do that. On the more general point about inquiries, I am sure the noble and learned Lord will know that one of the post-legislative committees that this House will set up in the new Session will look at the operation of the Inquiries Act 2005 and ask exactly these kinds of questions about whether we can learn lessons about the conduct of these inquiries, whether they can be done more quickly, their cost and so on.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, I was one of those in this House who was perhaps most extensively and intensively involved in the whole of the Iraq issue—the invasion of Iraq and the situations that arose from the post-victory occasions, including the involvement of many contractors in the building up or otherwise of Iraq after the war. While I fully take the points made by the Leader of the House into careful account, it is also the case that the lessons to be learnt from an inquiry—and the lessons to be learnt from this are probably among the most important of all—depend a little on the passage of time between the findings of that inquiry and the use of those lessons to affect policy. I ask him to bear in mind, as he considers this, the gap between the necessary and right attempt to give people the right to respond, but also the importance of the conclusions for the future work of this Government’s policy as well as the policy of the Opposition.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with the points my noble friend makes. To be clear, the timing of this inquiry is set by the inquiry itself. The Government have not set a timetable and we are not seeking to rush it. It must take the time. However, I take the point that we need to learn the lessons and that it has to be within a reasonable timeframe.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, could the Leader of the House tell the House how the Government will take account of the conclusions and recommendations of the Chilcot inquiry on Iraq in deciding their policy on Syria?
Lord Hill of Oareford
First, we need the report to be concluded. Then, as the Chilcot inquiry has made clear, there needs to be a process whereby those people who are mentioned in the report have the chance to comment on it. Then the report will be published. Then everyone in this House, as well as the Government, will be able to draw the conclusions from the Chilcot inquiry, wherever that takes us.
Lord Hurd of Westwell
Could my noble friend inject a little urgency into this process? The furthest we got from him today was that we would have the benefit of the report in the fullness of time. In our experience, the fullness of time is fairly full.
Lord Hill of Oareford
We all know that certain formulations have a certain elasticity, and I take his point. The most recent pronouncement from the Chilcot inquiry itself is that it hopes to finish the report by the middle of this year. Then the process—the formal word is “Maxwellisation”—of giving individuals the chance to comment would follow. That is what the inquiry has said is its current expectation of the timetable to which it is working.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, does the Leader of the House agree that the terms of reference of the Chilcot inquiry are so wide as to be almost infinite, and that the timing of the report’s publication depends not just on the handling of the representations but on the Government’s own clearance of what is to be included in the report? Will he undertake that that process will be done as quickly as the Government can manage?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I take both those points. On the Government’s co-operation with the declassification of documents as the process goes on, the Chilcot inquiry has said on the record that that process is working well. I know that the Government will co-operate as closely as they can to expedite that process of declassification as rapidly as possible.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, can the Leader of the House tell the House what is the period within which the people mentioned in the report have to respond to the report?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am not able to give a precise timescale for that because that will, by definition, depend on what the findings of the report are, what the criticisms of individuals are and how long that process will need to take. However, I am sure that Sir John is as keen to publish his report, so that we can all see it, as everyone in this House is to get it done.