Death of a Member: Baroness Thatcher
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, I rise to pay tribute to the late Baroness Thatcher. As I do so, I am conscious that here in our House there are many who helped Lady Thatcher to shape our political history and who stood alongside her shoulder to shoulder. There are those who took the other side of the argument. There are those who served politicians of all sides with great distinction and in the best traditions of our public service.
Whatever our views and whatever our backgrounds, I think that we would all agree that she made a huge difference to the country that she loved, that she helped to pick Britain up off its knees, that she changed our place in the world and that she transformed the very shape of our political debate. I think that we would also agree that she was a staunch defender of our parliamentary system and the part that it should play in our national life.
The personal journey that she made, particularly at that time, from the grocer’s shop in Grantham to the highest office in our land, was a truly remarkable one. The outlines of that journey are well known. Margaret Hilda Roberts was born in Grantham in 1925. Head girl of her grammar school, she went to Oxford during the war, graduating with a degree in chemistry. In 1951, she met and married Denis, the rock of her life for more than 50 years. In 1953, she gave birth to twins, Carol and Mark, to whom we extend our deepest condolences, along with the rest of her family and her many friends.
Having entered Parliament in 1959, she was in the Cabinet by 1970. Even today, 11 years from first election to the Cabinet would seem swift, but 50 years ago, for one of just a handful of female MPs, it was extraordinary. Even more remarkably, by 1975 this non-establishment figure had become leader of the establishment party, confounding the predictions of many. Those same people then foretold a quick exit. They foretold her never reaching the steps of No. 10. In fact, she herself said that she believed she would never see a woman Prime Minister in her lifetime. How she proved them and, indeed, herself wrong.
These bare bones of fact do not, of course, explain the reason for her success. They do not capture the strength of her personality, the beam of the spotlight and the force of her will that I remember vibrating through the government departments where I worked in the 1980s. Nor, I think, can we measure the extent of her achievements without first understanding the grim inheritance of the 1970s. Successive Governments had tried and failed to tackle our economic and political woes. We had become the sick man of Europe. People asked, not fancifully, whether Britain was indeed possible to govern. We were a divided country, and at times our very future seemed to hang in the balance. That is the background against which the sifting process of history will make its judgments. That is the background which helps to explain her approach and makes her achievements stand out so clearly. She did not take the easy way. She certainly did not take the consensual way. She led because of belief, she was guided by conviction and she was harnessed to the purpose of making Britain great again.
Tough economic policies were needed to turn the country around. She knew that the status quo was unsustainable and that some things had to change. Her programme of deregulation and denationalisation, and of reducing the power of trade unions, was painful, particularly in some parts of our country, but it made Britain a global competitor once again. The recapture of the Falkland Islands, her resistance to the IRA despite the high price paid by many of those closest to her, her friendship with President Reagan and her shared vision for a world free of the Cold War made Britain once again a world leader. The threat of nuclear war that seemed to hang over us in the early 1980s was lifted. It was indeed an iron lady who helped draw back the iron curtain from eastern Europe, extending freedom to millions. In those countries, too, she will always be remembered. These are mighty achievements. She was an extraordinary leader of her party, of this country and of the world during what were extraordinary times.
It is true that great leaders are not always easy people. I think that it is fair to say that patience was not a virtue that Mrs Thatcher had in abundance, and that she did not always instantly get the point. The great Ronnie Millar, who helped with her speeches for many years, told me the lovely story of an occasion when he was trying to reassure a rather nervous Margaret Thatcher with some soothing words just before she was due to speak at her first party conference as Prime Minister. “Piece of cake, Prime Minister”. “No, not now, thank you, dear”. Those who knew her best all testify to the warm side of her character: the countless personal kindnesses, the loyalty and the small, thoughtful acts.
For someone who so defined a decade, it was perhaps not such a surprise that a new decade ushered in change and that after 11 and a half years the longest serving 20th century Prime Minister resigned and, a little over 18 months later, joined your Lordships’ House. It was perhaps typical of Mrs T—now Lady T —that she began with a maiden speech on Europe—on Maastricht, in fact. Perhaps it was typical also that she began by reminding her new home of one or two home truths. She began:
“Mine is a somewhat delicate position. I calculate that I was responsible as Prime Minister for proposing the elevation to this House of 214 of its present Members. That must surely be considerably more than most of my predecessors—and my father did not know Lloyd George!”.—[Official Report, 2/7/92; col. 897.]
Sadly, that was to be one of few speeches to which we would be treated in the subsequent decades. The light that had burned so brightly began to dim as she suffered the loss of Denis, and ill health. However, although we may not have been blessed with her words, her presence was keenly felt and was sustained by her many friends here.
Perhaps Margaret Thatcher’s greatest strength as Prime Minister was her refusal to accept Britain’s decline. In taking that stance, the obstacles she faced were monumental, but her belief in the ability of the British people to better themselves, and of our country to better itself, was paramount. She was a once-in-a-lifetime Prime Minister and one of the most remarkable leaders this country has seen.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, we have heard many powerful and moving tributes this afternoon from all sides of the House. We have heard many examples of how Margaret Thatcher touched the lives of so many in your Lordships’ House, both in public and private life. Noble Lords have added a lot to our understanding of this remarkable woman and there has been a lot of new material for historians to mine.
We are all fortunate to have been here as it has been a great parliamentary occasion for a great parliamentarian. But above all, I hope that Lady Thatcher’s family will have the chance to read the tributes that have been made this afternoon about their mother and grandmother and all that she did, and feel very proud of what she achieved.
Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That the orders of appointment of the committee appointed to join with the committee of the Commons as the Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege shall remain in force and effect in the next session, notwithstanding the prorogation of Parliament; and that the committee should report by 28 June 2013.
House of Lords: Debates
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
To ask the Leader of the House whether he will bring forward proposals to encourage greater interactivity of debate, and to allow time for interventions, in time-limited debates in the House and Grand Committee.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, our existing procedures allow for a degree of spontaneity. Interventions are permitted in moderation and we allow speakers in the gap. Most importantly, the Companion discourages Members from reading their speeches. Indeed, your Lordships have resolved that it is alien to the custom of this House. Not reading speeches would certainly encourage greater interactivity of debate.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
My Lords, I warmly thank my noble friend for his positive Answer. I am sure that he will have heard, as I have, concerns from many Members of your Lordships’ House that debate is in fact not living up to its name, partly for the reasons that he has outlined. Given that the quality of contributions remains extremely high, so the problem is not quality but rather interactivity, will he consider reconvening the Leader’s Group on Working Practices to look at this issue in depth before we get much further down the road of more introductions?
Lord Hill of Oareford
As I have said, there are a number of ways in which we can all try to make it easier for debates to be more spontaneous. If people are not stuck to a script, they are more likely to listen to the debate that is going on and respond to the points that are raised in it. It is open to any Member to take suggestions forward to the Procedure Committee—for example, as to how one might make improvements in this area—and I know that all noble Lords are concerned to ensure that the quality of our debates is as high as it possibly can be.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, is it not the number of speakers in particular debates that causes the problem? Indeed, in some debates the time allocated is three minutes, an unrealistic time in which to expect someone to give way in a debate. Will the Leader of the House look at the possibility of limiting the number of speakers so that the minimum amount of time available was between seven and 10 minutes?
Lord Hill of Oareford
It would of course be open to the House, if it put proposals to the Procedure Committee, to decide that one way of addressing the problem that the noble Lord raises would be a limit on the number of speakers. As with so many things in this House, there is another side to the argument: if one had a fixed limit and the first noble Lords who put their names down to take part all had the same view, we would not have much of a debate. As often, then, this issue is not straightforward, but that is the kind of thing that one could look at. It is also true that there are a number of debates where we are short on speakers, so we have the problem of undersubscription as well as oversubscription.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I hope this will not be regarded as a breach of our convention that we do not criticise the other place, but I express the hope that we do not try to go down the road that they have increasingly followed in recent years where a debate turns into little more than a conversation between the Minister who is trying to make a speech and Back-Benchers who are incessantly interrupting.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
That has seriously reduced the quality of debate at the other end of the Palace.
Lord Hill of Oareford
Perhaps that sound is someone ringing from another place with a view on the quality of our debates. The response that the House gave to the comments made by my noble friend Lord Jenkin reminds us that we do not want slavishly to follow examples in another place.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, if there were to be a minimum ration of, say, five minutes for each speech, surely it would not matter very much if from time to time debates ran on a little longer. That would facilitate the kind of more spontaneous and lively debating that the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, rightly calls for while ending what is, frankly, the demeaning practice of limiting the time for noble Lords’ speeches sometimes to three minutes, and sometimes to two minutes or even one.
Lord Hill of Oareford
The whole House has taken a view about time-limited debates. The advantage of them is that noble Lords know how long they have to speak, when the debate is going to take place and so on. The ingenious suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, about allowing things to run on would effectively take time from someone else, and they would have an equally strong view the other way. These are not straightforward issues. One point worth making generally is that the amount of time in the previous Session set aside for debates was actually greater than that in the previous three Sessions. The noble Lord will probably know that I have brought forward proposals to the Procedure Committee to try to increase opportunities for debate and, importantly, for topical debates in particular because I know that there is widespread demand for that opportunity.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, although I strongly agree with what my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding said, perhaps there is a case for allowing some “injury time” so that interventions can be taken during time-limited speeches. We could profitably adopt that proposal, and I hope that my noble friend will be prepared to consider it.
Lord Hill of Oareford
It all comes back to the view the House has taken about the length of time it wants to set aside for particular kinds of debate. The only way of doing that formally, as my noble friend is suggesting, would be to have a cap of the sort that the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, suggested.
House of Lords: Oral Questions
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Lord Campbell-Savours
To ask the Leader of the House what steps he is taking to encourage Members of the House to ask short and relevant supplementary Oral Questions.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, the guidance in the Companion on supplementary questions is crystal clear. We all of us in this House have a shared responsibility to follow it. I have written to the Leader of the Opposition, the Convenor and my noble friend the Deputy Leader to ask for their support in reminding Members of that guidance. I have also encouraged Members on my Front Bench to provide succinct answers so that more supplementary questions can be asked.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, exhortations by the Front Bench to be brief simply do not work. Members ignore them. Some thoughtless people hog Question Time, bully the House and ego-trip with long, garrulous statements—all in breach of the Companion. If both Front Benches are unable, due to wishing to be courteous, actually to enforce the Companion, why cannot someone else take on that responsibility? I suggest the Lord Speaker.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I have a number of points, my Lords. First, on the question of having a Lord Speaker, I know that the House looked at it in the previous Session and concluded by a considerable margin that it would prefer to keep things as they were. As for regulating the House, it is the responsibility of all those on the Front Benches not to speak too long and not to hog questions and take them away from the Back Benches, but it is also the responsibility of the whole House to make its views known if it thinks that Members are going on for too long or are asking too many questions.
Baroness Sharples
Does my noble friend agree that a single supplementary question is much better than a double-barrelled question, because the Minister does not have time to think?
Lord Hill of Oareford
As is often the case, my Lords, I do think that less is more. The Companion is extremely clear. It says that supplementary questions should be,
“short and confined to not more than two points … they should not incorporate statements of opinion. They should not be read”.
I think all of us will want to remember that.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Does the Leader also recall that the Companion says—I must not point—that initial Answers by Ministers should be no more than 75 words long? It is in his power to regulate that. What is he doing about it?
Lord Hill of Oareford
If the noble Lord had been able to count the number of words that I gave in my Answer, he would see that it was spot on 75. The noble Lord has just forgotten his own self-injunction about pointing. I have spoken to my Front Bench, and I agree very much about the need for those initial Answers to be succinct. I also think that the shorter the questions, the tendency will be the shorter the answers. Long questions tend to lead to long answers.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that it becomes an embarrassment for people like me and the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, when we try to correct Members of the House, to be criticised by other Members for what we are doing when we are supposed to be self-regulating? It would be much easier if the Front Benches did a bit more.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am sure that all the Front Benches will have heard that point, but I very much agree with the noble Countess that all Members of this House have the responsibility to make their views known and hold the rest of us to account.
Lord Tyler
Is my noble friend saying to the House that short and relevant questions will automatically be rewarded with short and relevant ministerial answers? Yes or no?
Lord Hill of Oareford
Er. I contend that short questions tend to lead to shorter answers. As for giving a guarantee on behalf of the entire Front Bench that they will always be able to provide the clarity that my noble friend seeks, I cannot go quite that far.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, does the Leader of the House agree that supplementary questions often occur because the Minister has answered the question that they wish had been asked rather than the one that was asked?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I think there are a number of reasons why supplementary questions are asked. I looked at some figures that took a snapshot of the first six weeks of this year. They showed, somewhat to my surprise, that nearly 230 Members of your Lordships’ House had either asked Questions or supplementary questions in that period, which I thought was rather an encouraging figure and higher than I expected. There is, however, a point which the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised: not all those 230 Members asked one question.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I welcome all that the Leader has said. I just wish to place on record that I think that all Members would wish to ensure that those of us who feel a little nervous about asking supplementary questions should be encouraged to do so, and that we should have a much more accepting view in this House of those who feel somewhat reluctant to ask questions.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with the noble Baroness entirely. One thing that Members of this House can do, particularly those who contribute more frequently in Oral Questions, is to observe our courtesies and give way to some Members who perhaps do not ask questions so often. I urge all Members to do so.
Lord Grocott
Does the Leader subscribe to the basic rule of Oral Questions that you should never ask a question unless you know the answer?
Baroness Walmsley
Does my noble friend agree that there are occasions when certain Members of this House who find some difficulty in standing up quickly should be shown a little more patience by the rest of the House?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I do agree with that, my Lords. I think that all the Front Benches and the Convenor try extremely hard to look around and see which Members might need that little bit of latitude.
Business of the House
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That if the Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill has been read a second time, Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Monday 25 March to allow the Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages that day.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I thought that at least in moving the Motion, the Leader of the House would have the courtesy to explain why Standing Orders are being dispensed with, particularly as we have so many Cross-Benchers here today to listen to the debate on what is a very controversial Bill, and as we have plenty of time—or at least we would have, as I said last Thursday, when the Leader of the House was not present, if he had not decided summarily and without any consultation to send us off for an extra week’s holiday. I am sure that we would be better served here looking at this Bill properly and in detail rather than having that extra week. I hope that the Leader of the House will have the courtesy to explain to the House why he is moving this Motion.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, there are two separate issues. One is the need for emergency legislation, the other is to do with the timing of the Easter Recess. I know that there is a lot of strong feeling in the House about the timing of that. I recognise that. A number of noble Lords have made that case to me directly. In these circumstances, the usual channels, just as was the case when the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, was Leader of the House and, before that, Chief Whip, do their best to give the House notice and to order the business in such a way that we can land things when we aim to. We do not always succeed. We do our best, and in doing so we have to strike a balance between the business before us and the costs—the best part of £500,000—of this House sitting for a week.
With regard to the emergency legislation, we have set out the case for that in the Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill. In essence, there is an urgent need to legislate to save £130 million of taxpayers’ money.
Business of the House
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Thursday 21 March to allow the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages that day.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Business of the House
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That Standing Order 40 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Monday 18 March to allow the Motion in the name of Baroness Tonge to be taken before the Motion in the name of Lord Inglewood.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Hill of Oareford on the Order Paper.
Standing Orders (Public Business)
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That the standing orders relating to public business be amended as follows:
House of Lords: Membership
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, I think that we have a good debate and that the outlines of the issues that the House will want to consider are already clear. The points that have been made very forcefully by a number of noble Lords have been well made; obviously I have heard everything that has been said. Although I recognise that I am new to this job, one issue on which I can be in little doubt about the opinions of this House is that which we have been debating today. Noble Lords have already been extremely generous—I might say unstinting—with the advice they have given me at every possible opportunity. I am glad to say that I have had a chance to discuss these issues with many noble Lords who have already spoken today and I will continue to do so in future, because I think that that is the right way to take the matter forward.
Coming new to the subject, I cannot have the great expertise and history that many noble Lords have on this matter. We have seen it again demonstrated by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and my noble friend Lord Tyler. These issues go back a long time. However, I do at least bring a fresh pair of eyes to some of these issues. Given that the underlying issue to which all noble Lords have referred is the size of the House, I thought that I should start by going back to look at the figures to see by how much the House has grown. This is what I found.
The House that Tony Blair inherited on taking office in 1997 had 1,067 Peers eligible to vote. Of course, that was before the removal of most of the hereditary Peers following the 1999 reform. The House that Gordon Brown inherited on taking office 10 years later in 2007 was smaller: there were 738 peers eligible to vote. As of this week, there are 761 Members of this House eligible to vote; that is 23 more than in 2007. We have had some discussion about the proportion and size of the number who have been introduced, so I looked at the numbers for the Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Labour and Cross-Bench Peers in particular. In 2007, 698 Members sat on those Benches and were eligible to vote. I accept that the equivalent figure today is higher: today it is 704, which is six more than in 2007. Those figures come from the House of Lords Library note of 27 June 2012; for this week’s figures, I consulted the online House of Lords registry.
Given that the overall number of Peers eligible to vote is not so different from five or six years ago, that brings me naturally to the important question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, about the exercise of restraint in new appointments to the House, which is referred to both in his amendment and in my noble friend Lord Steel’s Motion.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
My Lords, would the noble Lord be kind enough to give us the details of the average attendances from 1997?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am coming on to talking about attendance and participation, which I recognise as an important issue. As far as the exercise of restraint is concerned, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, refers to the Leader’s Group recommendation on the creation of new Members of this House. That read:
“Whilst we cannot recommend that there should be a moratorium on new appointments to the House—since, while the purpose of the House is to provide expertise, we must ensure that that expertise is refreshed and kept up to date”—
a point, I think, on which all noble Lords agree—
“we do urge that restraint should be exercised by all concerned in the recommendation of new appointments the House, until such time as debate over the size of membership is conclusively determined”.
I would argue that this recommendation has been followed and that the Prime Minister has indeed shown restraint. Since the well publicised lists of May and November 2010, a total of eight new peers have been created, six of them on the Cross Benches; 42 life peers have, sadly, died. I suggest, therefore, that the Prime Minister’s record is consistent with the recommendation from the Leader’s Group, both in terms of exercising restraint and in ensuring that expertise is refreshed and kept up to date.
I now come to the point about which I was asked. The real issue is not so much the absolute number of those entitled to vote but attendance. Surely we all agree that attendance and participation are good things that we ought to encourage. That is one of the reasons why I am extremely keen, as a new Leader, to try to find new ways to help a wider range of Members to play a greater role in this House. That is why, as an early priority, I shortly plan to put proposals to the Procedure Committee that will provide more time and opportunities for Back-Bench Members to lead debates. My intention is to build on the work of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, who, with the support of the Liaison Committee and the House, initiated a modest expansion in our Select Committee activity to include more pre-legislative and post-legislative scrutiny as well as a greater emphasis on single-session committees. I am keen to do that in order to ensure that a wider range of Members have the opportunity to serve on our Select Committees.
Noble Lords have raised the matter of Question Time. I welcome the fact that the Procedure Committee is due to come forward with some revised proposals on how we might make it easier for a wider range of Members to table Oral Questions. There is also the question of how we might encourage more Members to come in on supplementary questions and broaden participation. I am acutely conscious of how crowded the Chamber is during Question Time, just as it is at PMQs in another place. When you spend as much time as I now have the pleasure to do in your Lordships’ House, it is clear that, at other times of the day, this House is not as crowded as it is during Question Time.
As well as talking about the need for restraint, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, reiterated the support of this House for the proposals in the Bill introduced by my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood. Indeed, the House has already made its position clear. We passed the Bill without a Division and sent it to the other place last summer. It contains measures which my noble friend Lord Steel described as “housekeeping” and for which it is clear that there is widespread support in this House. I know that my noble friend is keen that the Government should take the Bill forward. As he said, he made his case directly to the Deputy Prime Minister earlier this week; he was the right person to talk to, as he is the Cabinet Minister responsible for this matter. Despite that, the Government’s position remains that we do not wish to facilitate the passage of the Bill. I understand that the Deputy Prime Minister made clear why that is the case. As my noble friend Lord Tyler said, it is because the House of Commons voted overwhelmingly last year in favour of an elected House of Lords. With that in mind, no Government could credibly support a package of measures that could be perceived as anointing an all-appointed House.
Baroness Hayman
I am grateful to the noble Lord. I find this a confusing argument. If the will of the House of Commons was so clear and unambiguous, why are we not now spending our time debating the House of Lords Reform Bill? The fact is that the House of Commons purported to will the ends but refused to will the means. If you do not will the parliamentary time, you do not will the statute. I suggest to the noble Lord the Leader that the view of the House of Commons was not quite as unambiguously in favour of an elected House as he suggested.
Lord Hill of Oareford
Clearly I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, that there was a difference between the extremely clear view expressed—a 71% majority in favour in principle of an elected House—and what happened. As she said, when push came to shove some of the consequences of an elected House, such as the issue about the balance of powers between the two Chambers and so on, perhaps became less compelling. However, that was the situation and the Government have made it clear that they will not bring forward further legislation to reform the House in what remains of this Parliament. This position was welcomed by many in the House.
Lord Reid of Cardowan
I am keen to preserve the spirit of consensus that my noble friend Lord Hunt generated. However, with respect to the Leader of the House, who I hope will be engaging in discussions with the Government and other authorities, the question of legitimacy that he raised—that it would not be legitimate when something had been done to appear to do the opposite subsequently—must be truly addressed. Does he recognise that not only was the idea of proportionality lost in the proposals for this House but it was previously rejected under this Administration by the country in the referendum on the alternative vote system? Given that there is an apparent consistency about the legitimacy of the processes and non-contradiction, will the Leader assure us that, given the fact that proportionality has been rejected by the country in an overwhelming vote and then lost during the proposals for reform of the House of Lords, the idea of proportionality through appointment to this House will not be pursued?
Lord Hill of Oareford
On the point about proportionality, the noble Lord will know that in the coalition document, the parties set out their position—although, as I argued earlier when I referred to the exercise of restraint, progress towards that form of words has not been put into effect in the same way. I agree with him about the importance of this being a consensual debate. I do not seek to make it political.
Lord Hill of Oareford
Perhaps I may just finish this point. As things stand, it is clearly the case that the proportion of Labour Peers in this House is greater than was the case in the popular vote at the general election. It has not been the case since then, in 2010 or subsequently, that the Government have sought to redress the balance in a dramatic way. As we heard, many new Labour Peers were created. Therefore, I hope that restraint and the measured way in which the Government have proceeded with new appointments have provided the noble Lord with some reassurance. We are not saying that we rule out the measures that the Bill in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, seeks to enact. We are saying that they should be considered in their proper context as part of a wider reform of the House.
If I may, I will say something briefly about the effectiveness of the measures proposed in the Bill to substantially reduce the number of Members who attend this House each day. This point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Laming. In other words, would my noble friend’s Bill tackle the problem of size that it seeks to address? There has been mention already about the non-statutory, voluntary retirement scheme that has been put in place. Two Peers have taken advantage of it. Therefore, there must be some reason for the reticence of Members in volunteering for retirement. I am not personally persuaded that making the scheme statutory would overcome that reticence. Some supporters of my noble friend’s measures suggest that some kind of payment might help overcome this reticence. I should make clear, as I have done before, that the Government do not support making taxpayers’ money available to Members of the House to encourage them to retire. That would be wrong, and it would be seen to be wrong. I am glad to hear that my view on this is shared by all groups and all parties.
On excluding infrequent attendees, I say that those Peers currently put no pressure on the Benches at Question Time. If pressure is to be reduced, the people who need to retire are those who attend, not those who do not. I agree strongly that criminals should be excluded, but, unless there is a grand conspiracy in the House of which I am currently unaware, the suggested policy would not reduce the number of those currently attending the House.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, as a member of the Leader’s Group under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and as a Whip in your Lordships’ House, I would not hazard a guess as to the number of noble Lords who would take permanent leave of absence. However, I recollect, when I was in both those roles, a number of noble Lords who attended quite regularly and with great difficulty because they felt that they had been asked to come in and serve for life. I would not dream of naming them, but some are quite regular attendees because they feel honour bound to attend because they feel that, were they to cease to attend, their expertise, which some have said they feel is a little out of date, would not be replaced in the interest of not making the House too large.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I understand that point. As is normally the case with the noble Baroness, it is sharp, perceptive and fair.
I am conscious that the House would like to move forward. I will say a brief word on the Motion that was moved by my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood and about our powers of regulation in this area. The Leader’s Group got it right when it said that it could not recommend a moratorium on new appointments to the House. That must be correct. The Life Peerages Act 1958 gives the Queen the power to create peerages for life, with the right,
“to receive writs of summons to attend the House of Lords and sit and vote therein accordingly”.
Therefore, I agree with the way that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and my noble friend Lord Cormack approached the issue. I cannot see that our right as an individual House to self-regulate includes the power to override that Act of Parliament.
I have set out why I believe that the Motion in the name of my noble friend Lord Steel calls for much action that has already been taken, and restraint that has been exercised. I have listened to the debate and recognise clearly that Members on all sides feel very strongly about the question of size. However, I hope that the figures that I shared with the House demonstrate that some beliefs about the issue of overall size are not quite borne out by the facts.
I believe very strongly that we must do more to accommodate rising attendance and the consequent increase in demand from Members, especially newer Members, for opportunities to take part in our work. I have strong sympathy with those who are uncomfortable about Members convicted of a serious prisonable offence returning to the House. Pending primary legislation to exclude Members on those grounds, I would certainly support steps to explore measures that we ourselves might take to discourage Members in that category from taking part in the work of our House.
Those are two areas in which we can help ourselves. On the remainder, noble Lords have set out their clear views forcefully. I have attempted to set out the Government’s position. I have no doubt that our discussions, both on the Floor and elsewhere, will continue. I will certainly play my part in those. In the mean time, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Elton
My noble friend asked for restraint. Perhaps I may suggest some restraint on the part of Her Majesty’s Government. I can think of no more appropriate opportunity to put this point. I have watched the House of Commons for a great many years. I have noticed how it changes during a Parliament. At the beginning of a Parliament, the wisdom and experience of those who have served is diluted by many who come in with their head full of theories but no understanding of what the effects would be. As we have been not promised but led to expect legislation in the next Parliament, perhaps I may ask my noble friend to exercise his greatest efforts to see that reform is not undertaken in the first two years, so that those who talk about it will know about it.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I am always in favour of people knowing about the things that they are talking about. I always listen with great care to what my noble friend Lord Elton says.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I shall respond very briefly. I welcome the willingness of the Leader of the House to seek advice from Members of your Lordships’ House. He is a fresh pair of eyes and we very much look forward to working with him. I also very much support his work in trying to encourage Members who perhaps are not as active as possible to participate more in the future. Ultimately, though, I was disappointed with his response. He started to trade statistics and there always seems to be a risk in doing so. My general conclusion is that whatever Government are in power, in general and over time that governing party will tend to see an increase in the number of seats they hold in the House of Lords. I certainly agree that we need fresh blood form time to time, and I actually agree that restraint has been shown so far. As the noble Lord, Lord Elton, said, the issue is the future. The rumours which have been around this House for quite a long time now are that the Government want to make a very large number of new appointments in the next few weeks or months. Above all, I hope that the noble Lord will consider this. The plea of restraint is very much directed at those future appointments.
The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, helpfully reminded the House of my own views on Lords reform. I was hoping that my noble friends behind me might forget that, but they are right—I have consistently voted in favour of an elected House. However, the Leader of the House essentially says that because the Commons voted at Second Reading for Mr Clegg’s Bill, that means that it would be wrong to put to them proposals for incremental housekeeping. As someone who favours an elected House I strongly refute that. First of all, that Bill did not go through. Secondly, under the proposals of Mr Clegg, or indeed those of my right honourable friend Mr Straw, if a party pledged an elected House of Lords and that party came into power in 2015, the first element of elected Members would not come to your Lordships’ House before 2020. That is seven years away. For the Leader of the House to say that no useful housekeeping or incremental change can take place before that moment is a matter of regret. I think that is the implication of what he said.
I do not think that we can wait. We need to indicate to the Government that sensible change ought to happen as soon as possible and say that we very much hope that restraint will be exercised in the appointment of new Members. It is important that the House has a way of indicating its support for those intentions, so I will put this to the vote.
European Council
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Tomlinson
May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Hill, one simple question? We have the Statement on the European Council in the Printed Paper Office, but in the very last sentence it refers to the multiannual financial framework, as set out in document 37/13. I have been now two or three times to the Printed Paper Office, and that document is not available. It makes it very difficult for Members to comprehend the Statement when the principal part of the European Council in discussions on the multiannual financial framework is not available to Members of the House. I apologise to the noble Lord for interrupting him before he starts.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am happy to be interrupted at all times. I apologise for that and will see what we can do to put that right as soon as possible.
With the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made earlier in another place by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. The Statement is as follows:
“Mr Speaker, I am sure that the whole House will join me in sending our best wishes to Pope Benedict following his announcement today. He has worked tirelessly to strengthen Britain’s relations with the Holy See, and his visit to Britain in 2010 is remembered with great respect and affection. Pope Benedict’s message on that visit of working for the common good is something that spoke to our whole country, and I am sure his successor will continue to provide a voice of inspiration for millions around the world.
Last week’s European Council agreed the overall limit on EU spending for the next seven years, starting in 2014. When these multiyear deals have been agreed in the past, spending has gone up, but last week we agreed that spending should go down. By working with like-minded allies, we delivered a real-terms cut in what Brussels can spend for the first time in history.
As the House knows, the EU budget is negotiated annually, so what we were negotiating, initially at the Council last November and again last week, was not the individual annual budgets but rather the overall framework for the next seven years. This includes the overall ceilings on what can be spent—effectively, the limit on the European Union’s credit card for the next seven years.
During the previous negotiation, which covered the period 2007-13, the previous Government agreed to an increase in the payments ceiling of 8% to €943 billion. Put simply, this gave the EU a credit card with a higher limit, and we are still living with the results of allowing the EU’s big spenders to push for more and more spending each year. In fact, only last year, while member states had to make tough decisions to tighten their belts at home, the big spenders succeeded in increasing the 2012 European budget by another 5% compared with the previous year. If no deal had been reached, the existing ceilings would have been rolled over and annual budgets could have continued to soar for the next seven years. Because annual budgets are negotiated by qualified majority voting, it can be difficult to constrain spending in these annual negotiations. By contrast, the seven-year limits are agreed by unanimity. So this was our chance to get the ceilings down in line with what could be afforded.
The European Commission produced an initial proposal for increasing the payments ceiling still further to €988 billion. This was strongly supported by a number of member states. The first negotiation took place at the Council in November and, although the President did then reduce this during the Council itself, it was still some way short of the real-terms cut we were looking for. Together with like-minded allies from a number of countries, including Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands and Denmark, we rejected the deal on the table and told them to think again.
At this Council, we made further progress. Together with like-minded allies—many of whom, like Britain, actually write the cheques—we achieved a proper look across all the areas where spending in the Commission proposal could be cut. While there are areas where we could and should go further, not least on reforming the common agricultural policy and reducing the bureaucratic costs of the European Commission, we agreed a real-terms cut in the payment limit to €908 billion. That is €80 billion lower than the original proposal. It is €35 billion lower than the deal agreed by the previous Government, which is still in operation today, and it is €60 billion lower than the emergency arrangements which would have come into place if there were no seven-year deal.
But my aim was not simply to cut the credit card limit. I wanted to set the limit at a level that would deliver at worst a freeze and at best a cut in the actual spending over the next seven years, and this is indeed what this deal delivers: a real-terms cut. If you take the latest complete budget—the one for 2012—and freeze spending at that level for the next seven years, you would have spending of €932 billion. Our new payments limit means spending cannot rise above €908 billion, so we have slashed €24 billion off a real freeze on the last completed budget. Of course, the budget set in 2012, which Britain voted against, was unacceptably large, but even against the average of the past two completed years—2011 and 2012—this deal still delivers a real-terms cut.
Of course, this deal must now be voted on by the European Parliament. The European Council has said that it is prepared to accept some flexibilities about how spending is divided between different budget years and different areas of spending, but we are absolutely clear that this must be within the framework that the member states have now agreed. The EU’s seven-year budget will now cost less than 1% of Europe’s gross national income for the first time in its history.
Let me say a word about how this deal is likely to affect the UK’s contribution; a word about how it is likely to affect what the UK receives from the EU for research, for our regions, and for our farmers; and a word about what this means for growth and competitiveness across the European Union as a whole. On the UK’s contribution, the House will remember how the previous Government gave away almost half of our rebate. This has had a long-term and continuing effect on the UK’s net contributions. It is worth remembering why. When the European Union spends money on, for example, structural funds and cohesion payments in eastern European countries, the UK no longer gets a rebate on this money. As a result, almost whatever budget deal was done, our net contributions were always likely to go up, but as a result of this deal, they will be going up by less.
The only two sensible things we could do to protect the British taxpayer in these negotiations were to get the overall budget down and to protect what is left of our rebate, and that is exactly what we have done. While the actual amount that the UK contributes will depend on technical factors such as the size of the annual budgets, economic performance and exchange rates, as a result of this deal we now expect the UK’s contribution to the EU to fall as a share of our gross national income. As for the rebate this Government inherited, it is completely untouched. As ever, throughout these negotiations, the rebate was attacked repeatedly, but I successfully rejected all the calls for change. Under this Government, the British rebate is safe.
In terms of what the UK receives, I wanted to make sure that our universities are well placed to receive research work, our less well-off regions are treated fairly compared with others and our farmers continue to receive support for the environment schemes they put in place. On these points, the section of the budget that includes spending on research, innovation and university funding is up by a third, and this money is handed out on the basis of quality, so Britain’s universities are particularly well placed to benefit. We have ensured that structural funds will continue to flow to our less well-off regions. Britain’s share will remain broadly the same, at around €11 billion. And while we have cut spending on the common agricultural policy overall, we have protected the flexibility which will allow us to direct funds to support both the environment and the livelihoods of our farming communities.
Overall, this is a better framed budget in terms of growth, jobs and competitiveness. It is disappointing that administrative costs are still around 6% of the total, but overall spending on the common agricultural policy will fall by 13% compared with the previous seven-year budget. Research and development and other pro-growth investment will now account for 13% rather than 9% of the total budget. Reform of EU spending is a long-term project, but this deal does deliver important progress. Working with allies, we took real steps towards reform in the European Union. It is a good deal for Britain, a good deal for Europe and, above all, a good deal for all our taxpayers. That is what we have delivered, and I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I am grateful for the broad welcome given to the Statement by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. She made the point that this negotiation demonstrated, as I believe it did, that the EU is capable of change. It was not that long ago that some in the party opposite were saying that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister was isolated in Europe. The deal that he managed to strike demonstrated that, by working closely with our allies, particularly with the Nordics, he has been able to secure a good deal and a deal which, overall, will lead to savings, so we are far from being isolated. That is absolutely right in the current climate.
On agriculture, I agree with the noble Baroness that there is more to do on CAP. Generally, in these negotiations one does not always achieve everything that one wants. Britain’s overriding priority was to go for a freeze, or, if possible, a real-terms cut in the overall credit card limit or ceiling, which we have achieved. Some steps were taken and the CAP budget was reduced for the next seven years from a proposed €320 billion to €277 billion, so that is some progress, but I accept that there is more to do.
As regards growth, as the noble Baroness said, the budget for R&D has increased. The Connecting Europe Facility has also been increased. In terms of making savings on where some of those moneys have come from, my right honourable friend was keen to make bigger savings in the administration costs and he was disappointed not to have got those because there is a widespread feeling that we could have done better. We managed to take €1 billion out, but I am sure that more could have been done.
On the noble Baroness’s important points about governance in Africa, the Sahel and the road map for Mali, it is true to say that the overwhelming priority of this Council was sorting out the multi-annual financial framework, so the amount of time spent on some of these other important issues was proportionately less. As regards Mali, at the European Council the contribution made by the French was praised and the United Kingdom gave them strong support. We will contribute by training troops from the west African nations, as the noble Baroness will know. Generally, our approach is to try to develop a more sophisticated, political, diplomatic strategy alongside a military strategy.
The European Development Fund went up by a modest amount, so I am not sure that it was frozen. If I am wrong on that, I shall correct what I have said.
On the gap between the ceiling on payments and the ceiling commitments, raised by the noble Baroness, I understand that that size of gap is not untypical in terms of these negotiations. It is broadly in line with what had been the case in the previous seven-year negotiations. The European Commission also said that it thought that scale of gap was deliverable.
On growth generally, the noble Baroness is right to point to the importance of the trade negotiations and to see whether we can make more progress on the EU-US talks. I know that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister spoke to President Obama not long ago to try to make further progress on that. I also know that good progress has been made on those talks with Canada and negotiations are being taken forward with Japan. Opening up the European Union and encouraging trade is one of the most powerful ways in which to help growth and to get jobs, especially for the young, about which the noble Baroness is concerned.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement in your Lordships’ House. Perhaps I may say how much we welcome the Statement, and in particular the fact that research and university budgets have not been affected. At a time of economic recession, when national and household budgets are shrinking, it is right that the European budget should reflect the gravity of the situation. However, two elements have been preserved: growth and jobs. Is my noble friend able to quantify the overall impact on growth and jobs resulting from the reduced European Union budget?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am grateful to my noble friend for his overall welcome, and for the support he has given over a considerable period to my noble friends who took part in these important negotiations. I am not able to give a specific calculation of what the contribution of a smaller budget is likely to be to jobs and growth, because so many variables are in play: what happens in the eurozone, what happens to trade, how far we get with these talks and so on. What I am able to say is that the increased line on research and development should be of particular benefit to British universities, given that the money is distributed on the basis of quality—and, as we all know, British universities are renowned for their quality.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, will the Leader confirm my understanding that structural funds will continue to flow to regions of economic need. I believe those were the words he used? If so, will he confirm that the funds will remain at the levels that were previously anticipated for qualifying areas such as west Wales and the valleys, and that the source of funding will not be repatriated under last week’s agreement?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, on the question of these important funds, the noble Lord will be aware that the direction of travel, which the British Government support, is to try to make sure that they go to the least well-off regions in the European Union. With the accession of new countries to the east, it is important that they should have those funds. On the noble Lord’s specific question, we currently expect that the overall receipts will be broadly comparable to 2007 to 2013 levels. There will be a domestic application process that the Government will have to go through in due course, as a result of which we will know what the figures are.
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, I apologise for not being in my place for the first two minutes of my noble friend’s speech. Is not by far the best outcome of this very satisfactory budget negotiation, on which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister should certainly be congratulated, the fact that it demonstrates that when we go for constructive reform in the European Union, we are not without friends—and indeed, that we are gathering an increasing number of allies? Will my noble friend point out to those who keep talking about Britain being isolated and marginalised that the opposite is the case, and that when we develop our ideas further for European reform, clearly we will have more friends?
Perhaps I might add a second question. I read in the papers this morning that up to 20% of the entire EU budget will now be spent on climate-related and green issues, including energy. Can my noble friend confirm whether that is true? If it is, what can we do to make that expenditure far more efficient in achieving good environmental and energy results?
Lord Hill of Oareford
On my noble friend’s second question, I will need to see whether I can provide better particulars on how the figures break down, and what the basis is for the speculation that my noble friend saw—whether it is to do with the energy elements of environment funds through the CAP, for example. I am not sure about that, so I will see what I can do. On his general point, I could not agree more. This outcome shows that Britain was far from marginalised and isolated in the negotiations. It also shows that the pessimistic view held by some that Britain is doomed to fail, and therefore should not go into negotiations with a strong position trying to win others round to our point of view, is entirely wrong.
I remember that many years ago when I was working for the then Prime Minister, John Major, there were similar views to the effect that Britain would never be able to win an opt-out of the single currency or an opt-out of the Social Chapter, but in fact those were both successfully achieved. Similarly on this occasion, there were people looking forward with eager anticipation in the expectation that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister would not be able to secure Britain’s interests. In fact, he has; I agree with my noble friend that by being clear in one’s objectives and by assembling alliances—in this case, with the Germans, the Swedes, the Dutch and the Danish—it is perfectly possible for Britain to secure its objectives, and it will continue to be so.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, I hope it will not ruin the Prime Minister’s day if I offer congratulations on a small step in the right direction. However, I think he is going a bit far when he describes the present situation as “a good deal for taxpayers”. Could the noble Lord tell us what this country’s gross and net contributions now become? In 2012, our gross contribution was some £22 billion, of which we got back around £11 billion, so our net contribution was £11 billion a year. That represents the salaries of 1,000 nurses at £30,000 a year every day, which we never see again. Therefore, I still have to query whether this whole arrangement is anything but a disastrous deal for British taxpayers.
More importantly, perhaps, is it true that the European so-called Parliament is going to vote on this new proposal in secret? If so, does that not nicely confirm the nature of this animal? What happens if the EU Parliament votes this down? Do we go back to some 2% inflation per annum for the next seven years? Could he enlighten us on that before we get too overwhelmed by the Prime Minister’s success?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I shall do my best to calm the House down, my Lords. I noticed that in the space of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, he went from expressing concern about causing my right honourable friend the Prime Minister an anxiety attack by praising him, to rescinding that praise by the end.
On the cost to the British taxpayer, clearly, so far as the negotiation was concerned, the fact that the Prime Minister managed to end up with a credit card limit that was so many billions of euros lower than had been initially proposed is a cause of some modest satisfaction to the British taxpayer. That cost would have been lower if a chunk of our rebate had not unfortunately been surrendered in those negotiations in 2005 in the hope, as I understand it, that there would then be a deal on the CAP: a deal that has not been forthcoming. That explains why, although the overall figures are considerably lower—and they do represent a real-terms cut, which is what everyone wanted—the cost to the taxpayer is nevertheless higher than one would like.
On the European Parliament, like the noble Lord I have read some of the speculation there has been about that. The European Parliament has a role to play in approving the budget, but our position is that that agreement was struck by the 27 member states that are responsible for finding the money. We believe that some of the situations that the noble Lord has invited me to speculate about will not come to pass, but we need to see what happens. I will not be drawn into his alluring hypothetical situations.
The Lord Bishop of Worcester
My Lords, we on these Benches wish to join in paying tribute to His Holiness the Pope following his announcement. We give thanks for the outstanding contribution that he has made to the common good as well as to the welfare of the church during a long and distinguished ministry. He is in our prayers, as are those responsible for electing his successor, and as are the many Roman Catholics who will have been distressed and disorientated by his announcement.
Mention of the common good brings me to the EU budget and the welcome announcement that has been made. Can the Leader of the House assure us that the Government will focus their attention on what the budget seeks to achieve as well as on its size? There is a broader question here of what constitutes good stewardship of the resources that Europe has at its disposal. Stewardship requires a way of living that recognises that everything belongs to God and that all resources must be used for his glory and the common good. It requires us to find ways of collaborating with others to make the resources in our possession work for the good of all, as intended by God.
The Leader of the House will know that in 2004 the Sapir report was commissioned by the European Commission to look at ways in which the EU might deliver on the promise made in 2000 of becoming the most competitive knowledge-based economy in the world by 2010. The report argued that:
“As it stands today … the EU budget is a historical relic. Expenditures, revenues and procedures are all inconsistent with the present and future state of EU integration”.
Can we have an assurance that the Government will press for a more radical restructuring of the European Union budget in the time to come?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I recognise the important points made by the right reverend Prelate on behalf of the Bishops’ Bench in respect of His Holiness the Pope.
On the overall administration of the EU budget, I think my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has made it clear that he shares the sentiment that the way in which it appears to have been going up and up does not suggest very good stewardship—to use the right reverend Prelate’s word. In the years ahead we will carry on trying to bring pressure to bear, as we will in trying to make sure that all the funds that are allocated are spent responsibly and wisely on the ends for which they were intended.
Lord Tugendhat
My Lords, I think it is the turn of this side of the House. As a former budget Commissioner, perhaps I may add my congratulations to those of others to the Prime Minister on his achievement. I also emphasise the points made by my noble friend Lord Howell about the importance of alliances. This shows that when alliances are built up, results can be achieved, something that many people would not have believed possible. The way in which the Labour Party voted before the last round of budget negotiations, when it thought that it was setting the Prime Minister an impossible target, is an indication of how effective British diplomacy has been on this occasion.
Finally, does my noble friend agree that there is no stronger supporter of the European Union than Chancellor Merkel? The fact that she is on the same side as us gives the lie to those who argue that you measure support for the European Union by the size of the budget. No one would suggest that British patriotism can be measured by the level of public sector expenditure, and it is a complete fallacy to suppose that one should measure support for the European Union, as so many in the European Parliament do, by the size of the budget.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I think I agree with every single point that my noble friend Lord Tugendhat has made. He has underlined the importance of alliances, which is clearly right, and he has drawn particular attention to the strength of the relationship that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has worked hard to develop with a number of allies, including Chancellor Merkel. It is also true that in domestic politics the level of commitment is not related solely to the size of a budget. Given his experience, I have listened with particular care to my noble friend and I endorse his conclusions.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I hope the Minister will get some pleasure from somebody who is normally a critic of the Government’s European policy saying that I thought an extremely good deal was sealed last week. I am also delighted that the Prime Minister, in his Statement, drew the right conclusion from it, which was that you can get a good deal if you work carefully with your partners.
Was the noble Lord the Leader of the House not slightly surprised that one thing that no one has commented on so far is that the Prime Minister has committed himself to a budget that goes three years beyond the date of the referendum which he has said he is going to call? On this vexed question of the rebate, will the noble Lord the Leader of the House perhaps confirm that the change in the British rebate that took place in 2005 was simply Britain agreeing to pay its fair share of the structural fund spending in the new member states? Does he think that we should not have paid that fair share? We were the primary protagonists of those member states joining.
Lord Hill of Oareford
First, I very much welcome the noble Lord’s welcome for my right honourable friend the Prime Minister’s achievement, from a different perspective from that of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch. I am obviously very aware of his background and experience in these matters, so am glad to receive it.
On the noble Lord’s point about the rebate in 2005, my understanding is that the other side of that deal, as it were, was supposed to be reform of the CAP, which, sadly, has not been forthcoming. That will cost the taxpayer in the region of, I think, €8.5 billion. From the point of view of wanting to defend the interests of the British taxpayer, I am extremely glad that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has taken a robust line on Britain’s abatement. He was pushed to surrender more of it but felt that to do so would be wrong. I am glad that he resisted that pressure.
Lord Ryder of Wensum
My Lords, in the event that Scotland votes next year to become an independent nation, and therefore ceases to be a member of the European Union, can my noble friend confirm that the resources normally allocated to Scotland will be reallocated to the other three partners within the United Kingdom: namely, Northern Ireland, Wales and England?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, one thing that is clear in the document that I believe has been published today by constitutional experts looking into some of the implications, were there to be a vote in favour of independence in Scotland, for membership of organisations such as NATO or the European Union is that it is, to say the very least, unclear how things would pan out. However, the assumption that everything would just roll on is certainly questioned. My noble friend is right to highlight those concerns. Difficult and complicated negotiations would need to take place.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, will the noble Lord the Leader of the House agree that, given the complexities of these negotiations and the widely recognised need to explain to the British people how these things work, this is not the right time for the Secretary of State for Education to say that the question of understanding the European Union and its history and geography will be removed from the national curriculum?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I always admire the ingenuity with which certain Members of this House manage to broaden the scope of the matter at hand. There are many ways in which we can try to increase public understanding of membership of the European Union, which lies at the heart of why so many people question the nature of our relationship with it. People’s trust in the institutions of the EU does seem to be wearing thin. Whether or not better geography and history teaching will help with that, I leave to others to decide.
