House of Lords: Questions and Correspondence

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Thursday 8th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wills]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what importance they attach to providing prompt, full and direct Answers to Questions for Written Answer and correspondence from Members of the House of Lords.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government attach great importance to providing Members of this House with prompt and accurate replies to their Questions for Written Answer and their correspondence.

[Lord Wills (Lab)]

My Lords, I of course welcome the noble Lord’s response because prompt, full and direct answers to all kinds of correspondence and questions are crucial if Parliament is to do its duty in holding the Executive to account. So will he join me in deploring the systemic delays and evasions that I have encountered over the past year in trying to find out how much money the Government have allocated for the purposes of electoral registration and whether they believe that the way in which they have introduced the new system of individual registration poses any risk at all to levels of registration? Despite a whole lorry- load of Questions for Written Answer, correspondence and Oral Questions, I still am no clearer about whether the Government even know how much money they have allocated for electoral registration, let alone what the figure actually is. Will the noble Lord agree to take immediate steps to provide me with the answers that I have sought for more than a year now? In the spirit of what I take to be our freshly minted agreement on the importance of prompt, full and direct Answers, a simple yes or no will suffice.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, if I had a simple yes or no answer, it would be a lot shorter than the question, if I may say so. The substance of the policy issue is clearly for departments to determine. So far as promptness and so on is concerned, I very much agree with the noble Lord that we need to have prompt and accurate replies. One of the ways in which we can help with the promptness of correspondence is with the figures that are published every year. The next set is due shortly—I think next week—and will show the performance of individual departments: how good they are at responding within the deadlines they set. I have a particular responsibility to try to make sure that Questions for Written Answer are answered promptly and I have tightened up the way in which we are doing that. I have decided that from the next Session I will follow the practice of the other place and publish, again annually, the performance of departments on their promptness in dealing with QWAs.

[Lord Jopling (Con)]

My Lords, is the Leader of the House aware that, having campaigned on this issue for well over 10 years, I see a distinct improvement in the prompt answering of Questions compared with previous years, although there is still much to do in this area? Today, we have only three overdue Answers. However, there is a problem with Answers being inadequate. Perhaps I may suggest that the Leader of the House looks at a series of Answers given by departments to an identical Question from the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn. It provides a graphic illustration of inadequate Answers. For instance, the Home Office and Defra attempted to give adequate Answers but Ministers in the Department for International Development, the Ministry of Justice and the Department for Transport gave totally futile ones. This means that the Leader of the House should read the riot act to those Ministers who just put their signatures to whatever the civil servants serve up.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, one decision that I have taken recently, which I hope my noble friend and other noble Lords will support, is that a new electronic system for dealing with Questions for Written Answer is to be introduced. I have said that, so far as this House is concerned, Ministers will continue to send hard copies to Members and sign them personally. That is important because it speaks to the need for accountability of Ministers in our House. That is right and I am sure that all noble Lords here will support it.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for all that he said and I welcome the innovations. However, as many noble Lords have said, it is not just the speed but the substance of the Answers that is important. I, too, have an example in front of me: a direct Question to which I received not a direct Answer but a bland statement of policy. It is essential that we have direct Answers in order to hold the Government to account. However, as the noble Lord the Leader will know, I am concerned about the impact of long recesses on our ability to hold the Government to account, including by the tabling of Written Questions. With a 10-week Summer Recess, the tabling of Written Questions on two days is simply not adequate, and I ask the Leader what he is doing to address that issue.

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[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The noble Baroness and I have discussed this specific point before and I know that she is concerned about it. She will know that it is something that the Procedure Committee is looking at. However, on a point of fact regarding the length of the Summer Recess and other recesses, this year the Summer Recess will, I think, be a week longer than it was last year and the same length as it was the year before, and the shorter recesses are the same length as they have been in recent years. So we need to keep that point in context. So far as holding the Government to account is concerned, I agree that that is a vital part of the work that this House does. That is why I am sure that the noble Baroness will welcome the progress that we have made with other reforms in the past year—for instance, increasing by half the number of Questions for Short Debate, which are an excellent way to have Ministers at the Dispatch Box answering on government policy.

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

My Lords, given that Oral Questions in this House invariably result in better and more informative ministerial Answers—that is my experience, particularly of the other place, under all Administrations —will my noble friend look again at the suggestion that we should have a longer Question Time, perhaps lasting 45 minutes with five Questions? It is very popular in your Lordships’ House, not least because the first ministerial Answer to an Oral Question is open to challenge from other parts of the House, which meets the point made by the noble Baroness.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

This is a matter that the House looks at from time to time. It looked at it recently and concluded that the current arrangements are correct. I very much agree about the benefits of our Question Time. My strong feeling about it is that “short and intense” is good: we increase scrutiny by making sure that the questions and answers are short and then we can get more people in.

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the principle by which the late George Bernard Shaw conducted his correspondence, which was that of riposte? His definition of riposte was a letter by return of post.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I cannot say that the Government will be able to manage return of post, although these days return of post is not quite as quick as it was in the days of George Bernard Shaw.

Business of the House

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Thursday 8th May 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That the Question for Short Debate in the name of Baroness Cumberlege set down for Wednesday 14 May shall be limited to one hour.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Thursday 8th May 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That Standing Order 40 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Tuesday 13 May to allow the Church of England (Miscellaneous Provisions) Measure to be taken after the Motion standing in the name of Lord McKenzie of Luton.

Motion agreed.

Press Regulation

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strasburger (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Labour Party.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, thank you. Has the Minister seen the Media Standards Trust report, published late last year, which assessed how the IPSO proposals measured up to the Leveson recommendations? It found that IPSO failed to meet 26 of the 38 recommendations. Has the Secretary of State pointed out to the IPSO representatives that their model is a very long way from complying with Leveson? At what stage is the Secretary of State going to intervene to put the Leveson proposals and the royal charter back centre stage going forward, which is where they ought to be?

House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Friday 28th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

That the Bill be read a second time.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill, has consented to place her prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

My Lords, before any of your Lordships leap up to accuse me of telling a lie in my first sentence, let me admit that this is the sixth time that I have introduced this Bill, in its various incarnations. The first time was on 20 July 2007. The Bill before us today is almost identical to the fifth Bill, which passed through all its stages in this House in the previous Session, under the title House of Lords (Cessation of Membership) Bill. We therefore hope for an untroubled passage again today. I will outline the minor changes made in the Commons in a moment.

Before I go into the substance of the Bill, I should like to place on record my thanks to four colleagues who have been instrumental in getting us to this stage. The first is to Mr Dan Byles, the MP for North Warwickshire, who, having won a place in Mr Speaker’s ballot for Private Members’ Bills, took this one up, and as I saw, piloted it through all its stages in the Commons, not only with great skill but with a patience I would have found it difficult to summon in the face of some very odd attempts at amendment. I note in passing that Dan Byles, like Rory Stewart in Cumbria, is one of the few Conservative MPs to be selected for their constituency by one of David Cameron’s splendid open primaries. Before he produced his Bill, his main claim to fame was that he had rowed across the Atlantic and trekked to the North Pole—not things that many Members can claim to have done.

My second thanks are to my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth, who, as a political scientist, was responsible for the first draft of the original Bill six years ago and has been a source of good advice and assistance ever since.

The Bill today lacks two important provisions from the original Bill: the end to hereditary Peer by-elections and the appointment of a statutory appointments commission. However, these will reappear in the next Session in the Bill tabled by our former Lord Speaker, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who is very sorry not to be with us today because of a long-standing school speaking engagement. Today’s measure is a much more modest and slimmed-down version of the original. By the way, we should stop calling it the Steel Bill—its proper name is now the Norton-Steel- Byles Bill.

My third and fourth thanks are to the two Leaders of our House who, behind the scenes, have encouraged the adoption of these minor but necessary reforms. Both my noble friends Lord Strathclyde and Lord Hill of Oareford were not only generous in their advice and encouragement, but had to persuade various Cabinet colleagues of the need for the reforms, some of whom—not mentioning any names—were more difficult than others. The House should be deeply grateful to them.

The Bill consists of just three provisions. First, Clause 1 introduces the right to resign membership of the House. At the moment, a Peer is a Member of the House for life once appointed, notwithstanding the current availability of permanent leave of absence. That is not really retirement, as those who have taken it will discover next year when they still receive the Writ of Summons. For the first time, the law of the land will make it possible to end membership of the House. The Bill does not specify how that should be done; it simply gives the House the statutory authority to introduce a scheme for retirement, which will have to be prepared after the Bill becomes law. The Leader of the House will, no doubt, outline how that might be done. In the end, the House itself will have to approve a scheme, but I do not want us to get unduly distracted by discussing what that scheme might include.

Contrary to the findings of the working group under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, the Government—supported, I understand, by the other party leaders—have ruled out any financial package on retirement. We may have to return to that if we are to secure serious reductions in our numbers and if we can prove that, in so doing, there would be a saving to the House budget and therefore the taxpayer. However, there is no permanent financial provision in the Bill, nor is there any suggested age cut-off. Most Members appear to agree that retired Peers should enjoy some of the facilities made available to the hereditary Peers who were removed under the 1999 Act, and that there might be some ceremony on departure, but those are all matters for another day.

I add in passing that one of the more—how can I put this politely?—exotic amendments proposed in the other place, by Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg, was to encourage Peers to retire by offering Barons a viscountcy. I am sure all noble Baronesses would agree we should not go there. Nor did Mr Rees-Mogg say what would be offered to those who are already Viscounts or, for that matter, Earls, Marquesses and Dukes. The mind boggles at his ingenuity, but none of it, I hope, will appear in the scheme.

The second provision in the Bill is to remove those Peers who fail to attend our proceedings for a whole Session; there were 72 in the previous Session, most of whom had leave of absence. One amendment made in the Commons enables the House to decide to ignore that new rule in special circumstances—for example, if a Peer is forcibly detained abroad. Clause 2 would at least bring down our total numbers and save a small amount of work by not continuing to send them papers.

The third provision enables the House to come into line with the House of Commons by expelling serious wrongdoers from Parliament. Convicted offenders should not be legislators and, from the date of this Bill’s passage, any Peer convicted and sentenced to one year or more in prison will be automatically expelled. The second amendment made in the Commons, to Clause 3(9), dealt with a point that was raised in our House, about those convicted in foreign courts. In those cases, expulsion would not be automatic but only on resolution of the House. Those, then, are the three purposes of the Bill.

Clause 4 spells out the consequences of resignation. For example, it is now stipulated that hereditary Peer by-elections will continue to be held. Mr Byles fended off an ungracious amendment to the effect that any hereditary Peer retiring should be deemed to be dead, so that their heir could stand in a by-election. Peers resigning will have the right to vote restored, as well as the right to stand for the Commons. I do not, however, share the anxiety expressed by some distinguished academics that this will lead to people being nominated as Peers to train as parliamentary candidates. It is somewhat fanciful to think that any party leader would nominate in such a way.

As I said at the outset, this is a limited reform Bill, adding to the record of incremental reforms to our House passed over the years. It does not, in any way, cut across a large variety of possible future reforms. As we have little time left in this Session, we cannot play ping-pong with the Bill, so we cannot have any amendments if it is to pass into law; today’s debate really has to be the last if we want these reforms. The Bill has been supported in all quarters of the House, especially through the long-standing group chaired by Sir Patrick Cormack MP, as he was then, now my noble friend. I look forward to a short but effective debate.

One of many from the opposition Benches who has been consistently supportive is the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell. I am sorry that he has decided not to wait any longer for statutory retirement, but to withdraw from the service of the House, to which he has given truly outstanding service over 30 years. We all look forward to his contribution in a moment.

As we have already passed the Bill under a different title in the previous Session, I am confident in proposing that it now be read a second time.

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[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, as we have heard, it is the sixth time that my noble friend Lord Steel has launched a Bill on House of Lords reform upon the waters. On previous occasions the winds have blown and the seas have been stormy; various pieces of ballast have had to be thrown overboard. Finally, we have the chance today to help my noble friend steer his Bill safely to harbour. The clear mood of this House is that we want to do so. We are all grateful to him for his perseverance. This time last year a very similar Bill fell in the other place. Having spoken to my noble friend after that, I am pretty sure that he was ready to throw in the towel.

One year on, the Government’s position on the need for more fundamental House of Lords reform has not changed; that is, in support of a largely elected House. I was not altogether clear from the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, whether he was beginning a stately retreat from the opposition party’s position on the need for a reformed House. But we will see that in the fullness of time.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I cannot resist the temptation. I have made it absolutely clear that we are committed to substantive reform, but that should not be at the expense of sensible, moderate change, which is why we support the Bill.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

We will see what happens in due course. However, I think that a number of the proposals sketched out in the Daily Telegraph, to which noble Lords have alluded, would not constitute in most people’s minds moderate reforms of the sort proposed by my noble friend Lord Steel, which, after much difficulty, we can now support. I think we are agreed that his proposals are modest and consensual. Therefore, the only logical conclusion from what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has said is that, should the party opposite gain office, it would bring forward a stream of legislation on House of Lords reform. That legislation would, first, seek to limit the size of the House, then propose a retirement scheme, before moving in short order to propose an elected House. We can all look forward to the possibility of a constant stream of constitutional reform from the party opposite.

However, so far as this Bill is concerned, which is what we are here to talk about today, I am extremely glad that the Government’s position on these provisions has changed and that I can support the Bill. I thank my noble friend and especially Mr Dan Byles, as we all have, who have helped us to get to this point. I also thank Mr Dan Byles for standing through our debate this morning.

As we have heard, this is a modest Bill, perhaps more modest than those on both wings of the debate might like. Nevertheless, it is a sensible Bill. I would like to say a few words about the three main provisions covering criminal convictions, non-attendance and retirement. The first provides for the expulsion from the House of Members convicted of a serious criminal offence and jailed for more than a year. This will not cover many Members, I hope, but it closes a loophole and is also of a piece with other steps that I have been keen to take, which help to reinforce our commitment to the highest possible standards, and our determination to police ourselves effectively. I think that speaks to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and the noble Baroness, Lady Flather.

These steps have already included tightening up the Code of Conduct with the introduction of a new sanction which would enable the House to deny access to financial support and facilities to those whose behaviour falls below the standards we demand. I am extremely proud of the work of this House and the behaviour of noble Lords, but I am clear that we need to have a range of measures at our disposal so that we can take action against those who fall short. I shall continue to explore in the Privileges Committee, among other places, all options short of legislation which will help in this task. I agree with those who have said that the reputation of the many needs to be defended against the behaviour of the few. In that context, the measure in the Bill on criminal convictions is a welcome addition to the measures we have in our armoury.

The Bill’s second provision deals with Peers who do not attend the House. Of course, membership of our House is not full time, and nor should it be. One of our strengths is that Peers can bring up-to-date experience to bear from other walks of life. However, we support the intention of the Bill that Peers who never attend and have not sought leave of absence from this House should be permanently excluded.

The third provision concerns retirement. Under the Bill, retirement will be legally binding and irreversible. This seems to me a sensible step forward from the current voluntary scheme, of which the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, is to be only the fourth, and, I suspect, the last Member to take advantage. The warmth of the tributes we have heard today are the surest and most eloquent sign of the highest regard in which the noble Lord has been held throughout his 18 years in our House. I cannot add to and improve on what has been said. However, the noble Lord hinted that he might pick up his pen yet again and add to the list of his novels, which some noble Lords may have read—I think that one is entitled Margot and another The Gazelle and which I am sure are available through Amazon at the same price as my own book, which is 1p. However, you do have to pay for postage. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, will clearly be sorely missed. It is impossible to mistake the genuine affection in all the comments made about him today.

If the Bill is passed, the next question is how we can encourage more noble Lords to take advantage of the retirement scheme. I should say straightaway that, as noble Lords know, I do not believe that any kind of financial incentive would be justifiable. As I have said before, I know that the group leaders and the Convenor strongly support this view. However, as many noble Lords have said in the course of our debate, we could do more to mark the permanent retirement of a Peer. We have heard several proposals this morning, including the introduction of a retirement ceremony in the Chamber, the farewell speech suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, tributes and various other suggestions. The Bill rightly leaves these matters for the House to decide. However, I strongly encourage noble Lords to let me have suggestions which we can look at in more detail. Then, with the help of the Clerk of the Parliaments and in consultation with the Lord Speaker, we could see what range of measures could be considered.

There has been a fair bit of discussion about the absence of a cooling-off period in the Bill. I probably do not need to add too much to what has been said, not least most recently by my noble friend Lord Wakeham. I think we are all clear that we do not expect this to be a practical problem. Our own Constitution Committee was very clear on that point and concluded that the Bill raised,

“no problems of constitutional concern”.

We do not accept that, without a mandatory minimum interval, this House would become a training ground for MPs. I do not believe that party leaders would be tempted by such a scheme, but, even more so, it seems to me unlikely that a Peer would want to resign from this place when the Bill makes it absolutely clear that they would never be able to come back, so it could not be a two-way journey between the two Houses. That said, I understand the concerns raised about it. Therefore, like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, I put on the record that, were that to become a problem in the future, we would want to review the situation. There is always an option to legislate to sort it out, should that be necessary.

My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral raised the question of a fund for Peers who were no longer able to attend the House and who fell into hardship. There is absolutely nothing to stop noble Lords contributing to a pot of money for that purpose. I would not support taxpayers’ money being used for that on the same basis that I would not support it being used for some other kind of financial incentive. As regards where that idea has got to, my understanding is that as the fund could not be a charity, because the only beneficiaries would be Members of this House and because of other practical issues, the idea has slightly run into the sand. However, I would be very happy to discuss that further with my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, as I always am, if he would like to do so.

At the outset, my noble friend Lord Steel asked me to set out what the next practical steps would be in terms of setting up a scheme, if we pass the Bill, as I believe, and hope, that we will. There does not need to be a scheme as such; we would just need to take a number of relatively small practical steps of a housekeeping nature. For instance, in terms of retirement, we would need to consider abolishing the existing voluntary scheme in order to avoid any confusion. That is something we would take through the Procedure Committee. If we needed to bring in a procedure to allow incapacitated Peers to take retirement, that, again, would be a matter for the Procedure Committee. As regards the question around the retirement ceremony or other formal ways of marking the occasion, once we have worked up ideas, that, again, would be a matter for the Procedure Committee. As regards access to rights or privileges in the House—for example, being able to sit on the Steps of the Throne and the use of dining facilities—that would be a matter for the House Committee. However, I obviously undertake to discuss that with my noble friend Lord Steel to make sure that he knows the way in which we are taking it forward, and, with the help of the Clerk of the Parliaments, make sure that those things are done as speedily as is necessary once the Bill receives Royal Assent.

In a spirit of pragmatism, of which we have heard a lot this morning, I am delighted to support the Bill. I speak for the Government and, I believe, the whole House in saying that we should seize the opportunity presented to us today and help my noble friend Lord Steel and his Bill finally reach dry land.

Business of the House

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Thursday 27th March 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That the Questions for Short Debate in the names of Baroness Whitaker and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara set down for Wednesday 2 April shall each be limited to one hour.

Motion agreed.

European Council and Nuclear Security Summit

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Wednesday 26th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a Statement on last week’s European Council and this week’s summit in The Hague, which included the first meeting of G7 leaders—without Russia—in almost two decades.

Before I turn to Ukraine, let me briefly update the House on discussions on the economy, on energy and climate change, on the situation in Sri Lanka and on efforts to combat nuclear terrorism.

Our long-term economic plan is supporting the growth of a new trend, reshoring, in which jobs are starting to come back to the UK. A recent report from the EEF, the manufacturers’ organisation, found that one in six firms had brought all or part of their production to UK suppliers over the past three years. That reshoring of jobs is vital because it means that more of the benefits of globalisation can be felt by the British people, so, with the support of the CBI and Business Europe, I argued at the European Council that we could do more to develop reshoring in Britain and across Europe. The Council agreed to encourage that by doing more to cut red tape, attract investment, stimulate innovation and pioneer more work on reducing energy costs, including shale gas.

Secondly, businesses need affordable energy prices to keep pace with their competitors, so we agreed to accelerate efforts to complete the internal energy market and we agreed to improve the energy flow across the continent with more interconnections. On climate change, we want the EU to play a strong leadership role in efforts to secure a global climate deal next year in Paris. That means swift agreement on a target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions in the European Union, and I fully support the 40% target proposed. At the European Council meeting we did not reach full agreement in the EU and further attempts will be made on that later in the year.

Thirdly, on reconciliation in Sri Lanka, President Rajapaksa has failed to address the issue of the past properly, so in the coming hours the United Nations will vote on a UK-sponsored resolution for an international and independent investigation into alleged war crimes. At the Council, I secured the full backing of all EU member states for this approach and it is reflected in the conclusions of the Council. At The Hague I urged leaders from countries as diverse as South Korea, Kazakhstan, Gabon and Japan to support this crucial resolution.

On combating nuclear terrorism, which was the subject of The Hague summit, the meeting reaffirmed our determination to push through reforms of global security systems to ensure that vulnerable nuclear material does not fall into the wrong hands. This initiative, launched by President Obama back in 2010, has led to a remarkable amount of nuclear material being secured and reduced across the world, which should be commended.

On Russia’s actions in Ukraine, I had four clear objectives at these meetings: to secure an increase in the number of people subject to travel bans and asset freezes; to agree specific measures in response to what has happened in Crimea; to develop more clarity on what would happen if Russia were to take further steps to destabilise the situation in Ukraine; and to join efforts to build support for a democratic, successful and independent Ukraine. I want to say a word about each.

As I made clear in this House two weeks ago, if Russia did not engage in dialogue with the Ukrainian Government, or if those talks did not start producing results, there must be clear consequences. As a result, travel bans and asset freezes have been imposed, and last week the European Council agreed to extend these measures to another 12 individuals, bringing the total to 33—broadly the same number as has been imposed in the United States. We have cancelled the EU-Russia summit, agreed not to hold bilateral summits, and decided to block Russian membership of the OECD and the International Energy Agency. In The Hague, G7 leaders agreed that there would be no G8 summit in Sochi and no further participation in any G8 activities until Russia changed course. We agreed that there would instead be a G7 meeting in Brussels in place of the Sochi summit on the same day.

I also pushed hard on the need to reduce Europe’s dependency on energy from Russia. The G7 agreed that Energy Ministers would meet ahead of the Brussels summit, and the European Council tasked the Commission to produce a comprehensive plan for reducing Europe’s dependency on Russia by June. This work is long-term but vital. It requires new gas pipelines, new LNG terminals, more shale gas, more sources from outside Russia and greater connectivity. Above all, it requires political will and I am determined that, although the UK has almost no reliance on Russian gas, we should play our part in this important work.

Secondly, it was important to take specific measures in response to what has happened in Crimea. This was a sham and illegal referendum conducted at the barrel of a Kalashnikov. Both the European Council and the G7 leaders made very strong statements condemning the illegal referendum and condemning Russia’s illegal attempt to annex Crimea in contravention of international law and specific international obligations. Both meetings were clear: the international community will not recognise either. The European Council also agreed rapidly to implement economic, trade and financial restrictions on occupied Crimea, accepting Crimean goods only if they came from Ukraine, not Russia.

Thirdly, both the G7 and the European Council sent a very clear message to President Putin that it would be totally unacceptable to go further into Ukraine. The international community remains ready to intensify sanctions if Russia continues to escalate this situation, and I pushed hard at both meetings to secure greater clarity on what this should mean. The G7 agreed that this could include co-ordinated sectoral sanctions that would have an increasingly significant impact on the Russian economy; and for the first time, the EU Council tasked the European Commission to prepare measures that would have far-reaching economic consequences. Russia has a clear choice to make. It does not have to continue on this path. Diplomatic avenues remain open, and we encourage the Russian Government to take them.

Finally, both meetings reaffirmed the strength and breadth of international support for the Ukrainian Government and their people. It is clear what needs to happen. We need a broad and generous International Monetary Fund package of financial assistance to help the Ukrainian Government stabilise and repair their economy. We need a Ukrainian Government who reach out to the regions and respect the rights of Russian-speaking minorities. We need an association agreement between the EU and Ukraine; that is now signed, but it needs to be backed by reduced tariffs on Ukrainian goods. We need international support for free elections, which enable all Ukrainians to choose their leaders fairly. Britain will support all of these things.

Russia’s violation of international law is a challenge to the rule of law around the world and should be a concern for all nations. We have to be clear how unacceptable it is and to see through these economic sanctions and consequences. Otherwise, we will face similar situations in similar countries with a similar sort of unacceptable behaviour. Britain must continue to play its part in standing up to Russia’s actions, pressing for Russia to change course and helping the Ukrainian people in their hour of need. I commend this Statement to the House”.

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[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the overall tone of the comments made by the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition and for the substantive support that she offered. I think that it is important that the Government and the Opposition are completely aligned in our response to this crisis.

I am glad that the noble Baroness mentioned in passing work done on tax transparency. Although the Statement glossed over it, it is in the conclusions of the European Council meeting. There were some concrete steps taken at the Council by Luxembourg and Austria. It is a long-term grind to make further progress, but work is being taken forward in the Council and in the OECD. The European Council represented further substantial progress on that.

On the steps taken by the Government in respect of Sri Lanka, I know that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has worked extremely hard with a whole range of countries, both at the European Council meeting and at the summit in The Hague, to build support for Britain’s position and backing for the UN resolution. That vote is due to be held shortly and, if it is carried, as we very much hope, it is mandatory that the review to which the noble Baroness referred goes ahead. I do not have the precise timetable yet, but I am sure that it will become clear after the UN Security Council has met. I agree with what the noble Baroness said about the restraint shown by the Ukrainian Government and about the importance of pressing ahead with signing association agreements with Moldova and Georgia. Alongside the work we are doing with Ukraine on this, it is important to do the same with Moldova and Georgia and on an accelerated timescale.

The difference between the names on the EU and the US lists of travel bans and asset freezes boils down to the EU approach, which is that the individual named on the list has to have a direct, demonstrable link with the action taken in Crimea. The EU has to act under that legal process and that is why we have specifically targeted Russian politicians and those with a direct role in Crimea. The noble Baroness asked about the reference to EU sectoral sanctions and what kinds of sectors are being looked at as part of the EU discussions. The EU Council statement talks about there being a wide range of sectors, but the Prime Minister made it clear earlier that these would have to include energy, financial services, trade and arms. The important point is that the Council agreed that the Commission should start work on it straightaway, which was a good step forward. I note and agree with her welcome for the suspension of Russia from the G8.

On her final question, we also welcome, as a positive step, the recent meeting between the Ukrainian and Russian Foreign Ministers. When the Prime Minister met Ban Ki-moon yesterday he urged that further such contacts be encouraged and that the UN should do whatever it can to bring Russian and Ukrainian Ministers together.

Britain is increasing its help to the Baltic states. We are making aircraft available to them for air policing. More generally, we are striving to reassure our partners in Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Poland that Britain, like other countries, believes in their membership of NATO and the guarantees we have given them as part of that. We will work with them to secure the future of Europe, as we have done in the past.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, does my noble friend share my concern about the new Russian nationality law that will give Russian citizenship to all ethnic Russians everywhere in the world? This will have profound implications for not only the Baltic states, which he has mentioned, but the central Asian republics. Although he has touched on the role of NATO, will he assure the House that the Government will now look at very concrete measures to reinforce NATO’s operational and military capabilities across the board?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I take the first point that my noble friend made. I can certainly say that, as part of the whole range of conversations that we are having and the pressure that we are seeking to apply through our involvement in NATO, we will certainly work to keep that pressure up and build as strong an alliance as we can to send the Russians the kind of message that my noble friend refers to.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, is it not clear that the worst outcome for Russia would be for it to realise, as the years progress, that it has gained Crimea by losing Ukraine? However, the development of a viable and vibrant Ukraine will be a massive challenge going well beyond issues of funding, important though they are. Did any discussions take place in the EU Council about the development of potential mechanisms to help Ukraine address issues such as corruption, constitutional development and economic development? Have Her Majesty’s Government given any thought to such mechanisms?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The noble Lord made two extremely important points. The first, on the short-term gain of Crimea and the long-term loss of Ukraine and what that means, is what lies behind a lot of Russia’s reaction.

On tackling corruption and the support one can give Ukraine to help it build a more viable future, it is absolutely right that at the European Council and in other meetings the importance of tackling corruption and giving practical help to the Ukrainians to address that problem has been towards of the top of the list of priorities. There is also the question of financial help. We have agreed to the immediate unilateral lifting of tariffs, which should lead to €500 million-worth of trade benefit flowing into Ukraine. Those concrete trade and anti-corruption measures are very much part of our overall response.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

Turning to energy issues, does my noble friend accept that while it makes obvious good sense to build a better infrastructure for energy connectors throughout Europe so that oil and gas can flow and markets can work, we need to be rather careful about allowing too much centralisation and dictation of energy policy at national level by the EU? Is he aware that the net effect of EU policy at the moment is vastly to increase coal burning throughout Europe—including a lot of lignite, which is the dirtiest coal of all—and to raise energy costs for industry to levels that are seriously impacting on jobs and investment? Should we not distinguish between the areas where we need more Europe for physical infrastructure and those where we need rather less Europe to manage a flexible energy policy that does not crucify our industries and create more fuel poverty?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree very strongly with my noble friend on that and with the distinction he draws. It is one of the reasons that, when the European Council was looking towards targets for 2030, Britain made very clear its case that any such target does not bind the behaviour of individual member states or constrain their flexibility in how they go about doing so.

The other point that emerged from the discussions, of which I hope my noble friend will approve, is the emphasis on seeking to develop other sources of energy—whether that is shale gas or other developments—which will reduce our dependency, and the EU’s dependency, on Russia, which is clearly very much to be desired.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

Can we remind the Russians that they have a duty to protect the rights of those people in Crimea who do not want to accept Russian citizenship, particularly those in the former Ukrainian forces who have been forced either to leave Crimea or to accept Russian citizenship, and also to offer compensation if they are going to make them move? It is an important right which the Russians have accepted in other areas. Can we also remind some members of the UN, particularly China, that no other country will sign up to give up its nuclear weapons if there is a breach of the 1994 agreement that the territory of Ukraine would be respected if it gave up its nuclear weapons?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The noble Lord makes two very important points. The consequence of Russia’s actions is that, in any international relationship of that sort, why would anyone believe its word, given that in 1994 it freely entered into the negotiations that the noble Lord mentioned, which guaranteed the integrity of Ukraine and the future of its nuclear weapons?

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Prime Minister’s recognition that it is necessary and desirable to press ahead as fast as possible with the development of the UK’s indigenous shale gas resources, not merely because it will be good for the economy, but on geopolitical grounds because it will lessen the West’s reliance on Russian gas. However, is it not shameful that so far there has been only one exploratory well drilled in this country and that the industry is clear that the reason for the snail’s pace of progress is the mind-boggling bureaucratic complexity of the regulatory system in this country? Is it not time that the Government put their money where their mouth is and sorted this out?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with my noble friend’s point on the contribution that shale gas can make to the geopolitical balance of power and to increasing our collective independence, which I think is absolutely right. I also agree with him about the other benefits that it could bring to the economy, and the sooner we can crack on with it, the better.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

In addition to the issues of government capacity mentioned earlier, there are also long-standing issues here about the relationship between the majority and the minority in Ukraine that were not resolved and are at least partly behind what has happened over recent weeks. Those issues exist also in Moldova and a number of other places in that part of the world. I wonder what the Government are doing in the EU, and perhaps through the OSCE as well, to try and get more urgency into discussions about those conflicts that are in abeyance but are still there under the surface, in order to avoid a similar situation happening elsewhere.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I accept the force of what the noble Lord says, and as I said in my reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, so far as Georgia and Moldova are concerned, one of the ways in which we are seeking to take that forward and accelerate it is by bringing forward the signing of the accession agreements. I very much take the noble Lord’s point and we need to address that in every way we can.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD)]

May I ask the Minister two quick questions? First, with regard to the Nuclear Security Summit, can he say whether there is any movement forward whatever in the negotiations on the Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty? Clearly that is a crucial part of controlling nuclear materials—where they go and so forth. Secondly, on the issue of the rather more generous procedure that we have adopted towards giving visas—particularly for people who are interested in doing business in this country—will the Home Office take a very careful look at those visas if they are being offered to Russians, to make sure that they are not Russians who have supported the things that the Russian Government have recently done?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

On the second point, I am sure I can give that undertaking in the sense that clearly the Government want to make sure that whoever ends up being on their list of those proscribed under the travel bans or has their visa turned down, that is an appropriate list and we will consider all the people who might potentially be on it. I do not think that the last word on this subject has yet been spoken, so I take that point.

On my noble friend’s first point about the detail and progress the Bill has made in the Hague on nuclear matters, I will need to talk to brainier people than me to find out whether the specific point she raised was indeed covered and whether any progress was made there. As I understand it, the main focus of the discussions was on seeking to take further steps in tackling potential terrorism threats. I will follow up that point and perhaps we can have a word once I have written to the noble Baroness.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, the summit has rightly concentrated on containment at this stage, but clearly prevention would have been very much better. Should we not learn very quickly the lessons that have brought this to pass before Russia exploits the protection of new-citizen ethnic minorities in other neighbouring states? Can my noble friend therefore tell me and the House when Her Majesty’s Government were first aware of the threat that this takeover was going to take place? Secondly, what steps did Europe and this country take during the vigorous courtship of the Ukraine in trade and economic terms to discuss the terms of this with the Russians and reassure them as to the extent of our intentions? Finally, the whole of history shows that the only way to prevent the use of military force by an aggressor is to have an equivalent or nearly equivalent force oneself and to be seen to be ready to use it. The way to prevent a war—to not have to fight a war—is to be evidently ready to do so. Are these lessons being taken on board?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I can tell my noble friend that those lessons are being taken on board, which is why the range of measures that has been taken has been taken. The Government have sought a balanced and phased response to the situation as it has developed, ratcheting up the pressure over time as necessary. On the build-up to the current situation—what happened at which point—the truth is that it developed extremely quickly, and the EU and others have had to respond equally quickly as it has developed. However, I understand the burden of my noble friend’s points; that is why NATO and the security that it can offer are so important in this context.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, further to the answer that the noble Lord has just given, is it not true that Russia had made clear for years that it could not and would not tolerate Crimea coming under the sphere of influence of the European Union? Was Brussels therefore wise to offer Ukraine an eastern association agreement, complete with defence aspects? Surely the EU has thus caused the present crisis, and not Russia.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I know that the noble Lord is often ready to blame the EU for a whole range of matters. However, it is hard to argue in this case that the situation that has developed, with the aggression shown by Russia and its breaking of international treaties freely entered into in the past, can be laid at the door of the EU.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, was not in the Chamber for the Statement that was given by the Minister at the beginning. It is therefore a bit rich that he should come in.

[Lord Jopling (Con)]

My Lords, on the importance of making available non-Russian sources of hydrocarbons, what thought was given to and what proposals made about the importance of Georgia? If we wish Kazakh, Azeri or Caspian hydrocarbons to be available to Europe, it is essential, bearing in mind the impasse between Azerbaijan and Armenia, that new pipelines through Georgia are made available so that those hydrocarbons can flow without going through Russian territory.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, there were certainly a lot of discussions about how to address the kind of issue to which my noble friend refers—how to improve the flow and tackle some of the problems by increasing interconnections. On the specific examples that my noble friend gave, I would be very keen to talk to him. Perhaps we can discuss that further.

[Lord Goodhart (LD)]

My Lords, as I said to Members of your Lordships’ House some days ago, Russia should be allowed to support Crimea. Crimea is a body that has been separate from Ukraine for more than 200 years, and Ukraine has dealt with it in a careless and unsatisfactory way as a part of that country. Ukraine took over patronage of Crimea from Russia only in the 1950s. In all reality, Crimea has been entitled to take part in what has happened in the past few days, and it should be allowed to continue to do that.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I have to say to my noble friend that that is not the view of Her Majesty’s Government or of most people in this House. Whatever the history—and I accept my noble friend’s point about the history of the region—the fact is that agreements entered into freely under international law have been flouted. The basis for the so-called referendum was illegal and illegitimate, so I am afraid I cannot accept the point that we can allow these things to stand.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, instead of expelling Russia by calling a special meeting of the G7, would it not have been wiser to call a special meeting of the G8 and allow the Russian President, Mr Putin, to give his point of view and be challenged on it? Secondly, was it wise for the European Union to intervene in the uprising or demonstration—call it what you will—handing out goodies and European flags? Was that not likely to frighten the Russians, who believe that the European Union has expansionist policies to the east? Finally, will the EU prevail on its friends in Ukraine not to threaten to reactivate its nuclear weapons and ask Ms Tymoshenko not to threaten to obliterate Russia?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The Ukrainian Government have generally behaved with remarkable restraint during the situation and I think the boot is on the other foot. On the noble Lord’s point about the G8—or the G7—inviting Mr Putin along, asking him to give us the benefit of his views and trying to talk him out of them, would not have been a very productive exercise. It is not the case that the EU and the US bilaterally, and countries individually, have not been seeking discussions with the Russians. Throughout this process, while seeking to apply pressure, we have also sought to provide as many routes as possible towards de-escalation, which is why we have been very keen that talks should take place. However, given what has happened, the idea that the way forward is to send out messages that we consider the behaviour of President Putin and Russia acceptable, and will sit down and talk to him as though nothing has happened, is not a realistic option.

Parliamentary Privilege

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Thursday 20th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, although the subject matter of some of this debate may seem arcane—it certainly involved the application of a number of wet towels to my head to grapple with some of these issues—this afternoon’s debate has reminded all of us how important parliamentary privilege is and that it is a vital part of the underpinning of our whole system of parliamentary democracy. Like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, I want to say at the outset how grateful the Government are to the Joint Committee for its report and for its contribution to a debate that has lasted for many years and, I dare say, will continue for many more years, providing entertainment for law students in the future.

The Joint Committee’s report put its finger on all the key issues, came up with a number of helpful recommendations and succeeded in doing something which some noble Lords may think is even more noteworthy: it has got the Government to think again. So I would like to record my thanks to all noble Lords who were members of the committee, in particular to my noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara for his expert chairmanship and for setting out the issues so clearly today. Indeed, the whole debate has served as a reminder, if one were needed, of the knowledge and experience of the law and of Parliament which is to be found in your Lordships’ House.

In some ways, parliamentary privilege is itself a slightly unfortunate term: as my noble friend Lord Brabazon said, it carries a suggestion of elitism, a hint of exclusivity and risks reinforcing the impression—false, I believe—of politicians who look out only for themselves. But in opening this debate, my noble friend was also absolutely right that the concept of parliamentary privilege helps to protect the rights of everyone in the country. It underpins the sovereignty of the people’s representatives in Parliament, it provides those representatives with an absolute and untrammelled right to say what they believe, and it allows anybody to speak to Parliament without fear of legal consequences.

As we have already heard, these “privileges” do not mean that individual MPs and Peers are above the law, as we all saw in 2010, when a group of parliamentarians tried to assert privilege to avoid prosecution for offences relating to their parliamentary expenses. The Supreme Court’s judgment in that case, R v Chaytor, confirmed that parliamentary privilege did not protect parliamentarians from prosecution for ordinary crimes under our criminal law, and quite right too. That point was set out very clearly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead.

Even so, the Government felt that it was right that we should take a fresh look at all aspects of privilege to see whether there was a case for change. As noble Lords know, that led in April 2012 to the publication of the Green Paper which the Joint Committee has so helpfully scrutinised. I am sure that everyone in the House would agree that, wherever possible, matters such as privilege should be approached in a consensual and cross-party way, so I am very pleased that the Government have been able to agree with most of the committee’s findings, most notably its overarching conclusion that a comprehensive codification of parliamentary privilege is not desirable. I listened with particular care to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, had to say in that regard. My noble friend Lord Norton of Louth stressed the importance of flexibility, which was a theme picked up by a number of noble Lords.

The Government believe that legislation should be brought forward only where really necessary—I think the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, said that and I may hold him to it in a different context in other areas of political debate. For example, if the Chaytor case had gone the other way we may have considered it, but we agree with the conclusions of the committee that the potential consequences of comprehensive codification are impossible to predict. As the committee itself recognised, that conclusion does not, however, prevent Parliament taking steps to clarify the application of privilege where necessary. I will not try the patience of your Lordships’ House by going through the Government’s response to the report point by point, but I will touch on the most important areas, all of which have been raised by noble Lords this afternoon.

First, the Green Paper included a draft clause which would have enabled the protection of Article 9 of the Bill of Rights to be disapplied in the prosecution of criminal offences. The intention of that clause would have been to ensure that nobody accused of a serious criminal offence could use parliamentary privilege to avoid prosecution where the alleged offence was not related to the key elements of freedom of speech. The committee opposed the provision on the grounds that it would have a damaging effect on freedom of speech in Parliament. In addition to this principled objection, which was underlined by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, it is clear from looking at the draft clause that the Government came up with, and the lengthy schedule setting out those criminal offences which would not be covered by the terms of the clause, that there would also be daunting practical difficulties in implementing such a proposal. The Government will not therefore be taking it forward, and I am grateful for what my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth said in that regard.

The Joint Committee also rejected a draft clause which would explicitly have applied parliamentary privilege to the House of Commons Committee on Standards, which has lay members, which was a matter first raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bew. The Government agree with the committee that such a provision could have cast doubt on the privileged status of other committees, particularly our own Committee for Privileges and Conduct, which also has lay members. It also seems undesirable in principle to attempt to apply parliamentary privilege to a specific Select Committee by legislation.

The Government also share the committee’s serious reservations, which we have heard this afternoon, about Section 13 of the Defamation Act 1996, which allows individuals to waive the protection of parliamentary privilege in defamation cases. This breaches the principle that privilege belongs to the whole House rather than one person. That was a point made very forcefully by the noble Lord, Lord Bew. Accordingly, the Government support the repeal of Section 13. I understand that my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill, who cannot be here today, proposes to introduce a Private Member’s Bill to deal solely with this small but important change. The Government are in principle supportive of this measure to make that clear, and we look forward to seeing if it can make progress.

I should say a few words about the applicability of legislation to Parliament—in other words, the extent to which the activities of Parliament itself are bound by the laws it has passed. Over the years there has been a measure of uncertainty and disagreement on this point and while the Government do not agree with the committee that it is necessary to legislate in this area, we do agree that it is important for parliamentary counsel and the authorities of the two Houses to discuss whether relevant provisions in Bills, case by case, should apply to the activities of the two Houses. That is why the Government’s response agreed to ensure the correct application of the Treasury Solicitor’s 2002 guidance which asked departments,

“to consult the respective House authorities … on whether any proposed legislation that is to apply to the Crown, or its servants, should also apply to the two Houses and to instruct the draftsman accordingly”.

The Government also welcomed the proposal for a Motion which sets out the importance of Bills making express provision where necessary. Following discussions with my noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara, I tabled the Motion which noble Lords have seen in my name on the Order Paper. I believe, as a number of noble Lords have agreed, that it offers a practical way forward. The key for it to work will be good communication on a case-by-case basis and I can certainly commit the Government to engaging with the parliamentary authorities in a completely constructive spirit on that. Assuming that the Motion is agreed to, my understanding is that the Leader of the House of Commons will move something similar down the other end.

Let me say something about the issue of reporting and repetition of parliamentary proceedings, about which a number of points have been made and to which my noble friend Lord Brabazon drew particular attention. The noble Baroness, Lady Healy of Primrose Hill, also devoted many of her comments to this. As we have heard, the committee concluded that the uncertainty around the Parliamentary Papers Act 1840,

“significantly inhibits press reporting of the work of Parliament”,

and called for its wholesale replacement by modern statutory provisions. As we said in our response, the Government agree with the committee that the 1840 Act lacks clarity and does not fit well with modern modes of communication, a point developed by the noble Baroness, Lady Healy. We also agree that the burden of proof where reporting is alleged to be malicious should be reversed such that it falls on the claimant rather than on the defendant. While we are not as convinced as the committee that the current legal framework significantly inhibits press reporting of Parliament, we understand the need to modernise the law. We will certainly continue to consider whether we can find, and how we can find, an appropriate legislative vehicle to achieve this important aim.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I am most grateful to the Leader of the House for giving way. Would not a suitable vehicle be the reintroduction of a Private Member’s Bill by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, or another private Member, of the kind that has just been referred to?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Obviously that would be a matter for my noble friend Lord Lester. I believe that the focus of the Private Member’s Bill that my noble friend is keen to bring forward is on the repeal of Section 13 of the Defamation Act. I think that that is his priority and that he is keen to have a clear and focused approach on that. But obviously it would be open to other noble Lords to pursue this issue through that route.

The committee also looked at the sessional orders which have traditionally called on the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police to prevent the obstruction of Members in the streets leading to the two Houses. The Government do not intend to push for the revival of the sessional order in the other place but I thought that I would take the opportunity to put on the record that, so far as this House is concerned, we will continue to support the passing of the sessional order in the House of Lords at the beginning of each Session. I also remind the House that in looking at that issue, the committee referred with approval in the report to the “appropriate and proportionate” legislative provisions governing amplified protests in Parliament Square. What the committee did not say was that the situation was, at that time, much less clear in the areas around your Lordships’ House. Since then, an amendment to the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill—now an Act—passed in your Lordships’ House has applied the Parliament Square system to this end of the Parliamentary Estate. I very much welcome that because I was keen that it should be done. I am sure also that all members of the Joint Committee will welcome it.

I am grateful for the points raised by my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth and by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, about jury service, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, that we should not re-establish the exemption that was removed. On the interesting debate about the penal powers of Select Committees, on which both the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, and my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth concentrated, I think we all agree with the committee’s recommendation that the existing powers should be clarified. That is the right way forward rather than the legislative route. It is for the other place to lead on this, which I think was the recommendation of the committee. My understanding is that it is being taken forward down the other end, but I agree that we need to keep an alert mind on these issues.

Parliamentary privilege is a precious inheritance which we must safeguard, but that does not mean that it should be immune to all change. It needs to reflect the world as it is today, a point that was forcefully made by the noble Baroness, Lady Healy of Primrose Hill. That is why I am so grateful to my noble friend Lord Brabazon and his colleagues in both Houses for their important report. It has enabled us to look at things anew and it upholds the key principles on which parliamentary privilege and parliamentary democracy are built.

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Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That, in the light of the recommendations contained in paragraphs 226 and 227 of the report of the Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege (HL Paper 30), this House resolves that legislation creating individual rights which could impinge on the activities of the House should in future contain express provision to this effect.

Motion agreed.

European Council

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Monday 10th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows.

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on last week’s emergency European Council.

What has happened to the Ukraine is completely indefensible. Its territorial integrity has been violated, and the aspirations of its people to chart their own future are being frustrated. This European Council sent a clear and united message to Russia that its actions are a flagrant breach of international law and will incur consequences.

We agreed on a three-phased approach to stand up to this aggression and uphold international law: first, some immediate steps to respond to what Russia has done; second, urgent work on a set of measures that will follow if Russia refuses to enter dialogue with the Ukrainian Government; and third, that there should be a set of further, far-reaching consequences should Russia take further steps to destabilise the situation in Ukraine.

Let me say a word on each of these steps. First, as a response to what Russia has already done, we agreed on some immediate steps. We have suspended preparations for the G8 in Sochi indefinitely. As I told the House last week, my view is that it would be completely wrong for a G8 summit to go ahead at all under current circumstances.

We decided to stop work on a comprehensive new agreement on relations between Russia and the European Union, and we immediately suspended the talks that were under way on a more liberal visa regime in the Schengen area—the thing that Russian Ministers and business delegations have pushed for more than anything else.

Here in Britain, I have ordered an urgent review of all government business with Russia. We have already announced that no Ministers or members of the Royal Family will visit the Sochi Paralympics. Many other planned ministerial-level contacts will be cancelled in current circumstances.

All bilateral military co-operation is under review, with the presumption that we will suspend it, except for work carried out to fulfil international treaty obligations, such as European arms control inspections. I have ordered a review of licences for arms exports to Russia. It is hard to see how anything that could be used in Ukraine could be justified. However, as with other measures, it is best if possible to take these decisions in concert with our European allies.

There has been intense work to persuade Russia to come to the negotiating table with the Government of Ukraine and to discuss its stated concerns face to face. The idea of such a contact group that included other countries and organisations was one I first proposed to the Polish Prime Minister back in January.

The Council agreed that it was essential for such talks to start within the next few days and for them to deliver progress quickly. We also agreed that if Russia did not co-operate there would need to be further measures—the so-called second phase—which would need to start rapidly. So at my instigation, the Council tasked the European Commission to begin work on additional measures which could be taken against Russia if these talks do not get going or do not start producing results. Those will include asset freezes and travel bans.

We are working closely with our American, European and other international partners to prepare a list of names, and these sanctions, plus the measures already agreed against Yanukovych and his circle, will be the focus of a meeting here in London tomorrow with key international partners.

There is an urgent need to de-escalate tension in the Crimea. We are all clear that any referendum vote in Crimea this week will be illegal, illegitimate and will not be recognised by the international community. I have to say, in addition, that any campaign would be completely impractical as well as illegal. There is no proper register, no proper campaign, and the territory is covered in troops. It is completely impossible for a proper referendum campaign to be carried out. As I discussed with Chancellor Merkel last night in Hanover, Russia can choose the path of de-escalation by signalling that it understands that the outcome cannot be acted on as legitimate. Chancellor Merkel and I were clear that any attempt by Russia to legitimise an illegal referendum would require us to respond by ratcheting up the pressure further.

Thirdly, and most significantly, we agreed that it was essential to stop Russia taking further unacceptable steps in Ukraine. The Council agreed that, if further steps are taken by Russia to destabilise the Ukraine, there will be additional and far-reaching consequences for the relationship between the Russian Federation on the one hand and the European Union and its member states on the other. The Council conclusions state that these consequences would,

‘include a broad range of economic areas’.

Britain played a leading role in helping to reach this agreement, including through a meeting that I convened with fellow leaders from France, Germany, Italy and Poland on the morning of the Council. Such sanctions would have consequences for many EU member states, including Britain. However, as I argued at the meeting, the costs of not standing up to aggression are far greater. Britain’s own security and prosperity would be at risk if we allow a situation where countries can just flout international rules without incurring consequences.

Finally, we decided to send a political message of support to the Ukrainian Government and people. The Ukrainian Prime Minister spoke at the European Council with great power and force. The Ukrainian people want the freedom to be able to choose their own future and strengthen their ties with Europe, and they want a future free from the awful corruption that they have endured for far too long. At the request of the Ukrainian Prime Minister, we agreed to bring forward the signing of the political part of the EU’s Association Agreement with the Ukraine, and to help Ukraine tackle corruption.

The EU has now frozen the assets of 18 people linked to the former regime, and Britain has deployed a team to Kiev from our National Crime Agency to help the new Ukrainian Government go after ill gotten funds and return them to the Ukrainian people. It is vital that Ukraine proceeds towards free and fair elections, which enable all Ukrainians, including Russian speakers and minorities, to choose their leaders freely. Britain is now providing substantial and immediate technical assistance to Ukraine to support elections and assist with reforms on public financial management, debt management and energy pricing. Ukraine also needs support to stabilise and repair its economy. The EU agreed unilaterally to lower trade tariffs and to work with the International Monetary Fund on a package of financial assistance to the Ukrainian Government.

As I agreed with President Obama during our call this weekend, there is still an opportunity for Russia to resolve this situation diplomatically. It should engage in direct talks with the Ukrainians; return Russian troops to their bases in Crimea; withdraw its support for this illegal and unconstitutional referendum in Crimea; and work with the rest of the international community to support free and fair elections in Ukraine in May. No one should be interested in a tug of war. Ukraine should be able to choose its own future and act as a bridge between Russia and Europe.

Britain’s own future depends on a world where countries obey the rules. In Europe, we have spent the past 70 years working to keep the peace, and we know from history that turning a blind eye when nations are trampled over stores up greater problems for the longer term. We must stand up to aggression, uphold international law, and support the Ukrainian Government and the Ukrainian people, who want the freedom to choose their own future. That is right for Ukraine, right for Europe, and right for Britain”.

My Lords, I commend the Statement to the House.

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[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am grateful for the comments of support from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and I agree with his concluding remarks about the responsibility that the British Government have—in particular the Prime Minister—in trying to pursue the twin-track approach in the way that the noble Lord described by working with both the United States and our partners in the European Union. I believe that the Prime Minister has been doing that assiduously in recent days.

I agree very much with the remarks that the noble Lord made at the beginning of his response about the importance of the contact group. It is, I suppose, our overriding aim at the moment to try to get that work taken forward and to apply pressure on the Russians to become involved in that process, because ultimately getting them and the Ukrainians to talk directly together is the most sensible way forward.

The noble Lord was concerned about whether the measures already announced were insufficient and he asked whether further action would be required if the Russians continue to behave in the way in which they have behaved in recent days. The honest answer to that is that the steps that Britain, the EU, the United States and others take will depend on the response that Russia gives. We are trying to be clear, consistent and predictable in setting out our position on that and on what would happen if Russia took further steps to destabilise Ukraine. That is what lies behind the idea of having a three-step, phased approach.

So far as travel bans and the freezing of assets are concerned, whether we move to that stage will depend on whether Russia agrees to the setting up of the contact group that we discussed. If Russia does not accept that, the Prime Minister has made it clear that travel bans and asset freezes would follow. He has also been clear that that should be able to happen within days rather than weeks, as the noble Lord asked me.

As to whether it would make sense to suspend preparations for the EU-Russia summit as well as for the G8, it is the Government’s view that it would make sense for those measures to be considered in tandem and that the summit should not go ahead under the current circumstances. In response to the noble Lord’s question, we would look at all our options. As to whether we should suspend Russia from the G8, if progress is not made in setting up the contact group a step that could be taken would be to bring forward the revival of the G7, which would send a very clear message to the Russians. However, it would be better if things did not come to that and if we could resolve the issue through diplomatic means.

So far as the arms licences and the timescale are concerned, the Government are keen to review that issue across the EU to create the greatest amount of common ground that we can. So far as Britain is concerned, as the Statement made clear, the Prime Minister has already given instructions that a review of arms licences between Britain and Russia should be carried out immediately.

I can confirm that broader economic and trade sanctions are being considered. If the referendum in Crimea is approved and endorsed by Russia, the Government’s position on it is extremely clear: we cannot accept the referendum as legitimate. We think that it would be essentially farcical. There is no electoral register, there is no ability for people living within Crimea to travel from one side of the region to another and it would be impossible to have a proper campaign in the time available. If, despite that, Russia were to respond to the referendum and claim that it was legitimate, then the kind of broader trade and economic sanctions to which the noble Lord referred would certainly be considered.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, join in thanking the Leader of the House for that rather cautious Statement, but perhaps caution is the order of the day at the moment. I would like to press him on two matters. One is the composition of the contact group. We heard last week of the formation of the group and, indeed, in today’s Statement we are told that the Prime Minister was considering this back in January. Would the contact group be an EU initiative comprising just EU countries or would it be a wider group of countries that are slightly more disinterested and possibly therefore have more leverage with Russia? The noble Lord will be aware that when I asked my Question about Ukraine on 27 February when the Russian action was just beginning, I asked whether the good offices of the United Nations Secretary-General would be employed. I urge the Leader of the House to take that message back. However, it may well be more significant to have a contact group that comprises the wider international community rather than just the EU countries that he has mentioned. Can he tell us his thinking in this regard?

My other point concerns the 21 February transition. It may well be worth considering now what measures from that transitional agreement might be applicable. Regarding the elections to be held on 25 May, it would seem legitimate to reflect that at this time, when intense diplomacy is required and when any miscalculation on the part of any country could result in an upping of the stakes, we should consider urging the Ukrainian Government to go for talks through a contact group or to have direct talks with Russia, rather than rushing to elections on 25 May, perhaps sticking to the agreement of 21 February to have elections a little later and, when those elections come, to offer protection for all minorities. I look forward to hearing my noble friend’s response.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand the points made by my noble friend about the composition of the contact group. When my right honourable friend the Prime Minister talked to President Putin yesterday, he made the point that the precise format and composition of those talks is slightly less important than getting them going. I am not able to give a precise answer as to who the participants might be because that would clearly be part of any negotiation and discussion that would need to take place. However, the points made by my noble friend will clearly be taken on board and listened to by the Foreign Office as we go forward, as will her other point about the transitional agreement and so on. At the moment, all these areas are in a state of flux, so I am clearly not able to answer with the kind of precision that my noble friend or others might request. However, at the moment our priority is certainly to seek to bring about a de-escalation. The best way of doing that, whatever its precise form, is to find a way of the Russians and Ukrainians talking directly to each other.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, of course it is right that the Government should say that we cannot have constitutional change, and certainly not territorial change in the boundaries of any country, under duress or the threat of force. However, I would like some clarification on the Government’s position in respect of a referendum in Crimea. Again, the Government are quite right to say that the logistics of any referendum make it impossible or unrealistic for it to take place within a week or so. However, if it becomes the settled view of the people of Crimea or indeed any other country that the present constitutional arrangements are not to their liking, then surely it cannot be the Government’s permanent position that we will, as a matter of principle, say that we will reject that in all circumstances and at any cost.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Whatever form a referendum might take, it needs to be consistent with what is set out in the constitution of Ukraine itself. The simple point about the proposals for the referendum in Crimea is that it is utterly inconsistent with the Ukrainian constitution, which should control it—apart from some of the other practical points to which the noble Lord has already referred, including that when OSCE monitors and others have turned up to try to see the situation, they have been turned back at gunpoint.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

Has my noble friend noted some of the commentaries, particularly in the United States, where people still seem to think that we are fighting the Cold War? Will he join others in seeking to explain that the approach by our right honourable friends and our fellow European Governments in looking at the economics of the situation are a much more subtle and effective way of bringing pressure to bear on Moscow and Russia? Does he recall that the Russian economy really floats and survives on a sea of revenue from gas and oil? It may be a supplier, but suppliers need customers. This is the language in which we should bring to bear our efforts to improve Russia’s behaviour and make it more sensible in dealing with a very complex and difficult issue in the Crimea and in Ukraine.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My noble friend makes, as one would expect, a number of extremely pertinent and wise remarks which underline the fact that the importance of financial and trade sanctions should not be underestimated. There are those who seem to suggest that this is some kind of empty threat, but as my noble friend has illustrated forcefully, it is not an empty threat at all. That is why those options are all being considered. At the European Council meeting the member countries made it clear that those options would be considered if we needed to turn to them.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

On the question of elections, is it not the case that if a country is divided very much on communal lines and identities itself in terms of nationalism, religion or, indeed, history and geography, as it does, elections which have been taking place under the present constitution—whether it is Tymoshenko or Yanukovych, whereby a result of 51% to 49% means winner takes all—do not work? I know enough about Ukraine to know that this has been coming for some time, because it does not work. Not only does it not solve problems, it exacerbates them. The United Kingdom has experience of something analogous, and I am talking about Northern Ireland. We all know that there are no easy answers but we found that instead of just having elections at 51% to 49%, along with Dublin—which is the equivalent of Moscow in this analogy—we brought people along, step by step, to power sharing. I do not know whether I can ascertain from the Leader of the House whether our experience here would be rather useful in discussions with our colleagues, and indeed with the people, in Ukraine. Can he say whether that experience has been brought to bear, and if not, would it be useful to do so?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The focus of the discussions last week was on prior questions about the need to set up a contact group, the legitimacy of the referendum, the steps that the EU would take and all the rest of it, rather than the minutiae—it is not minutiae, it is an important point—of how Ukraine would organise its own electoral system. I take the noble Lord’s point about some of our own experience, but I do not think that it is our task to try to prescribe how Ukraine carries out its own elections. The most important thing at the moment is that its constitution should be respected and its people should be able to make a decision themselves about the kind of future they want.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement, but will the Government give special thought and consideration to the position of the Crimean Tartars? After all, they suffered greatly under Stalin and have considerable reasons to be nervous now. For example, will the OSCE meet the Crimean Tartars and help them work out suitable future arrangements?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, all sides of the House—certainly the Government—absolutely understand the significance of the point that the noble Lord has made about the position of the Crimean Tartars and the particular difficulties they have. We are certainly following developments in Crimea closely, including any impact specifically on the Crimean Tartars. I understand that our embassy in Kiev spoke recently with Mustafa Jemilev, who is one of the leaders of the Tartars. That was expressly for the purpose of expressing the support of the British Government and establishing contact during these difficult times.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, has the Prime Minister and his colleagues in the European Union considered the possibility of seeking a meeting with President Putin to discuss the sort of issues that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, touched on? A properly supervised referendum with international observers might offer a way forward. Bearing in mind that the future peace of our continent depends on stable relations with Russia, surely it is crucial that we do everything possible, as I am sure my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is doing, to defuse tensions and ensure that civilised dialogue can take place.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with my noble friend that it is important to de-escalate the situation as much as we can and as rapidly as possible. It is certainly the case that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has been in direct contact with President Putin to discuss these issues and to press the case for establishing a contact group—which is, indeed, the most effective way of de-escalating the situation. I accept and agree with my noble friend that it is important to do what we can to defuse the situation. In that regard, I am sure that the House would agree with the proposition that the Ukrainian Government and people have been remarkably restrained in their response to the situation and done everything that they can not to rise to the bait. In accepting the wish to de-escalate, I think that we need to make it clear—and the Prime Minister has been making this clear—that if Russia chooses not to go down that route, consequences will follow, and we will be prepared, along with the Americans and the EU, to take whatever steps are necessary to make it clear that we cannot tolerate this kind of behaviour.

[Lord Boateng (Lab)]

The last time that this House gave detailed consideration to events in the Crimea, some 23,000 British and imperial soldiers died. There is still no fitting memorial to those soldiers in the Crimea. Will Her Majesty’s Government, when the heat and dust of this matter has died down, give serious consideration to the funding of the Crimea war memorial appeal?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I have sympathy with that proposition and the contribution that British soldiers have made in all kinds of spheres through our imperial and colonial history. However, at the moment, the Government’s focus is on trying to resolve this crisis and on making sure that we do not need another memorial to many more people who have been slaughtered. I am sure that others will have heard the noble Lord’s remarks.

[Lord Taylor of Goss Moor (LD)]

Does my noble friend agree that President Putin has undoubtedly drawn the conclusion from Georgia that the effective establishment of the status quo there is a green light for attempting the same in the Ukraine, and in the Crimea in particular? While I welcome the Statement, is not the most important message to get across that today’s heat and anger will not turn into a shrug of the shoulders a few weeks or months down the line?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with the force of what my noble friend has said. That is why it is proposed, not only by Britain but across the EU and by the United States, that there should be a phased response whereby appropriate steps can be ratcheted up depending on the circumstances and the reaction of the Russians. That should help militate against the danger my noble friend sees of us turning our back when the immediate dust settles, which we all hope it will.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I fear I may make some slightly controversial comments, although I do not wish to do so. Having worked within the Russian Government over several years in the 1990s—funded and supported by our own Foreign Office—I was conscious of the extraordinary humiliation of the Russian people as a result of the loss of so many territories at that time. Of course the situation in Crimea is extremely dangerous and incredibly undesirable. However, if we can look at the situation through Russian eyes, we should be conscious that they have the idea that Ukraine, their neighbour, their friend, their backyard, will become ever more allied to the European Union and that their naval base—well, where are we with that?

The only question I wish to raise with the Leader of the House is whether he feels that the Ukrainian Government have done enough to reach out and reassure the Russian people within Crimea—and, indeed, within their own territories—that they are citizens and part of the Ukraine. The impression I have is that their language law and the exclusion of all Russian speaking people from the Government was incredibly provocative and unhelpful. Can the Leader of the House assure us that behind the scenes a great deal of work is being done to encourage greater acceptance by the Ukrainian Government of their Russian people?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I understand the sense of historical perspective and the points made by the noble Baroness about Russian history going back a very long time. Having said that, I do not think it excuses or detracts from the fundamental point that we cannot stand by if international agreements upheld by a range of countries are defied. I know that she was not saying that.

On her specific point, I agree that the more we are able, without deviating from the fundamental need to defend the rule of law, to demonstrate that the Ukrainians are sensitive to Russian concerns, the better. I take that point. The noble Baroness will therefore be encouraged by the action taken by the acting Ukrainian President to veto the introduction of the kind of language law to which she referred which played exactly into those prejudices. That is an encouraging step to have taken. As I said earlier, the Ukrainians have been quite remarkable in the restraint that they have shown in recent weeks and months in the face of often quite direct provocation.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, I am quite concerned about a number of aspects of the Statement. First, I regret the distinction being made between the phase 2 and phase 3 sanctions. The implication seems to be that, if Russia limits itself to annexing the Crimea without attacking the rest of Ukraine, the cost will be limited to the phase 1 to the phase 2 sanctions, which are not very onerous. I fear that, given the psychological and strategic importance of the Crimea, Mr Putin might think that the acquisition was rather a good deal on that basis.

Secondly, I am dubious about the idea of announcing asset seizures on a contingent basis in advance. If we need to seize these assets, by the time we get around to doing so they may have been removed from our jurisdiction. Would it not be more sensible to seize the assets in the first place and then negotiate the basis on which that seizure could be lifted?

Thirdly, has the Minister given consideration to, as a major sanction, the possibility of freezing Russian banks out of the interbank market? I am not going to ask whether or not that will happen or whether it was agreed in the EU Council for the obvious reason I have just mentioned in another context, but I would be grateful for his assurance that this matter has been or will be carefully considered. It amounts to instructing European and North American banks, when swaps and deposits with Russian banks mature, not to renew them.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I can confirm to the noble Lord that the Government and their allies will consider a range of possible sanctions which may well include the kind of measures to which the noble Lord has referred. When that work goes on, I am sure that people will think about those kinds of issues.

On the issue of phasing, as the noble Lord will know, it is difficult to be too precise in every respect at this stage about what measures will be taken precisely and in what circumstances. It will depend on what steps the various players take. It is a situation in flux. The Government and their allies, overall, were attempting not to box people in too early but to give people routes out and to have phased and gradated responses. However, we want to be clear in the final calculation that if, despite our best endeavours, Russia persists in this course of action, there will be serious consequences.

Business of the House

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Thursday 6th March 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Monday 10 March to allow the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages that day.

Motion agreed.