Legal Aid
Lord McNally Excerpts(15 years ago)
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Lord Harrison
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how their proposals to reform legal aid in England and Wales will impact on the welfare and rights of vulnerable children and young people.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, we published impact assessments and equality impact assessments alongside the response to consultation. These lay out our best estimates of the impact of the reforms.
Lord Harrison
Does the Minister acknowledge that the likely rise in legally unaided, go-it-alone litigants in family cases will introduce greater delays in getting justice, as well as uncertain outcomes? In respect of Section 37 family cases, does he recognise that there will be no legal aid for interim court orders when a child is removed from a family? Finally, will he look again at the proposal to deny legal aid in domestic abduction cases, which are often very complicated, whereas, rightly, we are retaining it for international abduction cases?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I will certainly take back the points raised by the noble Lord on child cases. As far as possible, our intention is that, where children are involved, legal aid will still be provided.
On the broader point of impact, it is partly our intention to divert family and welfare cases away from outright litigation towards mediation and less confrontational ways of settling disputes. That may—and, we hope, will—change the pattern of demand in this area. That is the basis on which the Government are bringing forward their proposals. However, on the issues raised by the noble Lord, I will come back to him.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
Does the Minister agree that applications for legal aid in exceptional circumstances are likely to increase considerably? How does he propose to handle it? Does he not think that a court would be better able to assess exceptional circumstances than a Minister and his civil servants?
Lord McNally
It is an interesting idea. As this legislation goes through both Houses, I am sure that suggestions of that kind will be made. At the moment, our proposal is that this matter will be in the hands of Ministers.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, I declare an interest as the chair of the children and family court system. I welcome the Minister’s information that there will be legal aid in children’s cases, but does he mean that this will be in both private and public law? Did the impact assessments carried out during the consultation process include a definitive assessment in relation to children? If not, could that be carried out?
Lord McNally
The impact assessment was consistent with our equality duties which included the duty to have due regard to the impact of the legislation on groups of all ages. This is detailed in the equality impact assessment. I understand that legal aid is in public law. If I am wrong on that, I shall write to the noble Baroness and place a copy of my reply in the House Library.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I am sorry to get ahead of the right reverend Prelate. There are least three pieces of major legislation currently going around that have an impact, as is perceived, on vulnerable people, including children, disabled people and others. I refer to the Welfare Reform Bill, this legal aid legislation and the housing provisions of the Localism Bill. Has anyone carried out an overall impact assessment of these pieces of legislation on the people we are concerned about? In other words, is this joined-up government?
Lord McNally
I believe it is joined-up government but it is set against the reality that all departments are faced with severe budget restrictions. I have never denied from the Dispatch Box that if you cut budgets in areas that are helping vulnerable people there will be impacts on the aid available to them. In my department and other departments we are trying to focus the scope of what we are doing so that we target what is available to the most vulnerable and needy.
Lord Bach
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that, as a direct result of Her Majesty’s Government’s proposals in the Bill that is now in another place, young children who have been severely injured will no longer be able to get legal aid to pursue their claims for clinical negligence? Is that not an outrage in a civilised society? How do the Government justify this denial of access to justice?
Lord McNally
The Government’s assessment is that in most clinical negligence cases it will be possible to carry actions forward through arrangements with solicitors willing to take the cases. Where it is not, the special legal aid fund will kick in for cases not covered by such arrangements. It is not the case that people will not have access to justice in clinical negligence cases; they will continue to have access to justice. We have taken this tough decision because we believe that there are alternative ways of gaining access to justice, with the safety net of the special fund, which will be in the control of my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
Will the Minister confirm that among those most affected by this legislation will be children fighting deportation, including those who have been in this country for many years and have no knowledge of the country where they were born? Would not such an effect be contrary to Article 8 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child?
Lord McNally
All the proposals in the legislation are fully compliant with the Human Rights Act. As I have said before, in cases where children are involved our intention is, where possible, to provide legal aid. The problem is that we are discussing the proposals against a background of questions to which we will know the answer only when the impact of the legislation is seen. That is why we have committed to keeping the impact of the legislation, when it is in place, fully under review.
Personal Injury Lawyers
Lord McNally Excerpts(15 years ago)
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Lord Sheikh
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. I should like to declare that I am the chairman of an insurance broking and financial services organisation.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the Government are sympathetic to the idea of a ban on referral fees and are looking at how to tackle the issue as part of our wider reforms, and at how we could do so in a way that would be effective.
Lord Sheikh
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that reply. Lord Justice Jackson’s review of civil litigation costs prescribed a reduction in fixed costs and hourly rates for solicitors, as well as a ban on referral fees. Does the Minister agree with this position, and will he indicate whether the issue will be addressed in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, which is currently in the House of Commons?
Lord McNally
Whether the question of referral fees will find its way into the Bill is a matter for the study that we are undertaking into ways that this could be implemented. However, we are trying to bring forward a range of the Jackson proposals in that Bill. As to referral fees, as my noble friend will be aware, the Legal Services Board and the Transport Select Committee advised a solution in terms of transparency. Lord Justice Jackson recommended a ban and, as I indicated, the Government are sympathetic to the idea of a ban.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, in addition to that, will my noble friend confirm—as he indicated to me in a Written Answer to me on 23 June—that referral fees or kick-back fees in criminal cases are illegal, corrupt and should not be undertaken in any case by any lawyer?
Lord McNally
If that is what I said in a Written Answer it must be—[Laughter.] Even more so, it just sounds right.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, the industry has called this its “dirty little secret”. Given that over the past 10 years personal injury claim payouts have doubled from £7 billion to £14 billion while road accidents have largely reduced over that period, is this not a clear case of market failure, and the Government should report this to the OFT to look at this issue and get this industry sorted out?
Lord McNally
Whether it is a matter for the OFT or the regulator is a balance of judgment. The noble Lord is right that the figures are showing a doubling. One of the factors that one must look at is the unbelievable increase in whiplash claims, about which I know the Association of British Insurers has held talks with my colleague Jonathan Djanogly. It is far too easy to find in even the most minor of accidents that subsequently whiplash is claimed, along with quite substantial damages. One of the weaknesses in the system is that the insurance companies find it easier to settle and pass on the costs to the customer than to fight these bogus claims in the courts.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that this practice of insurers charging solicitors referral fees for names is not only unethical and offensive but ensures that the claims are handled not by the most competent or well qualified solicitors but by those who are prepared to pay the most to buy the clients—thus effectively depriving their clients of their right to choose the best lawyers to handle their cases? Is that not another good reason for implementing Lord Justice Jackson’s recommendation for a ban on such fees?
Lord McNally
I agree with my noble friend. I hope that the more the public are aware of what the noble Lord described as this “dirty little secret”, the more it is in the public domain and the more that all parts of the insurance industry, including the insurance companies, solicitors and the consumers, will demand—and we will respond to that demand—to ban it.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I am now slightly confused as to the Government's position on referral fees. I note what the noble Lord said in his written response to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, and what he said in his reply to the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, today. Have the Government made up their mind to ban referral fees or have they not?
Lord McNally
I am only surprised that someone with such long experience as a Minister should leap on this as if I were dodging the question.
Lord McNally
I can see a few more experienced ex-Ministers over there. The Government are sympathetic to the idea of a ban on referral fees, and are looking at how to tackle the issue as part of wider reforms—how we could do so effectively. Perhaps the Opposition have not yet got used to the fact that we are not a knee-jerk reaction Government; we are looking at the problem. The Prime Minister himself has made it very clear that we believe that Lord Justice Jackson has given us the solution to the problem. We are now looking at how to make it most effective.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
Will my noble friend please take even more account of the fee-farming industry that has grown up in this country, which encourages indiscriminate and, I have to say, false claims because neither the fee-farming company nor the solicitor who purchases the case from the fee farmer ever sees the client? Without that, there is no constraint on dishonesty.
Lord McNally
My Lords, it is almost 15 years since I first asked a question on this. I have always had my doubts about claim management companies. There are more than 3,000 of them at the moment; 450 of them have had their authorisation cancelled by the claims management regulator, and I would like to see a lot more of them cancelled.
Prisoners: Voting
Lord McNally Excerpts(15 years ago)
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Lord Willoughby de Broke
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they intend to respond to the ruling by the European Court of Human Rights in April that they should make proposals to grant prisoners the vote within six months of that ruling.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the Government are considering the next steps and Parliament will be the first to be informed when the decisions on the way forward have been reached.
Lord Willoughby de Broke
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for that helpful reply, but it does not take us very much further. In February this year, the other place voted by a majority of 212 against giving prisoners the vote, and during the passage of the EU Bill the Government made great play of the sovereignty of Parliament. Which body is actually sovereign? Is it the UK Parliament or the European Court of Human Rights?
Lord McNally
On the question of the commitments made last April, we have promised to make our position clear on 11 October. On the question of sovereignty, of course this Parliament remains sovereign. In many cases over the years, Britain has signed up to conventions and treaties as the will of Parliament, and that is still the case with regard to the European Convention on Human Rights.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, as the United Kingdom is a party to the European Convention on Human Rights, are we not bound to accept the jurisdiction of the court unless we seek to withdraw from it, which would hardly be in the interests of this country? However, if there is a widespread concern, not only in this country but in other countries, about the jurisprudence of the court, is it not more sensible to enter into discussions about possible amendments to the convention on human rights rather than its break-up and withdrawing from the jurisdiction of the court?
Lord McNally
One reassuring thing is that I am not aware of any party represented in this House that is looking for us either to withdraw from the convention or to see it break up. My noble friend is right: we are looking to see whether we can put forward a proper and sensible programme of reform for the court. My right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor spelled out our agenda, as it were, in a speech in Turkey a few months ago, and we will be taking that agenda forward when we take up the chairmanship of the Council of Europe in November.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
Does the Minister agree that while there may be a case for asking for an extension of time while awaiting the Grand Chamber judgment in the Scoppola case, which also involves prisoners’ rights, and a case for negotiating with the court on the broad margin of appreciation allowed in the Hirst case, there is no case whatever for defying the court, as a number of Members of the other place seem rather keen to do, particularly at a time when the UK will assume the chairmanship of the Council of Ministers in November? What sort of precedent would that give to defaulting members such as Turkey and Russia?
Lord McNally
The noble Lord makes the key point in all this. It looks rather macho to say that we are going to defy the court, but one of the real benefits of the convention over the past 60 years has been that it has levered up respect for human rights right across Europe and continues to do so. If I, any of my noble friends, or any member of the Opposition were to meet marginal observers of human rights and put pressure on them, our words would not carry much weight if they were able to say, “Well, when it got tough for you to accept the decisions, you did not accept them”.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree
My Lords, does my noble friend believe that it is fair and right that prisoners convicted of crimes should be allowed to vote, whereas Peers in this House are not?
Lord McNally
There is a saying, “You can tell a man who boozes by the company that he chooses”. I am well aware of the reasons why Peers cannot vote, because we already have a vote in Parliament. I do not think that that rules out the case for prisoner voting—it is an ongoing debate and the Government are studying the various issues. Another reason why the Government are continuing to have to study those issues is that there are changes in the court’s position. The Italian case that the noble Lord referred to means that again there is a slight change in the court’s view on these matters, which may change future actions.
Lord Tomlinson
The noble Lord speaks very clearly and enthusiastically about our responsibilities of adherence to the European Convention on Human Rights. Instead of concentrating so much on this micro case of prisoner voting, will he concentrate equally on the macro problem of making the court work? The biggest problem at the European Court of Human Rights is the backlog of cases—over 100,000 cases—and the real reason for the backlog is because the court is being starved of money by the members who have to finance it. Will he make sure that that problem is now seriously addressed so that the court can get on with its real work on the big scale?
Lord McNally
I am not sure I entirely agree that it is simply a lack of money or budget. I know that the noble Lord has made this point about the financing of the court before, but that is why my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor has made this such an important part of our presidency of the Council of Europe; as the noble Lord says, any court that has a backlog of over 100,000 cases ain’t working. We are going to do our best, and we are gathering support for the idea of trying, to get some fundamental reform of the court.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, does the Minister agree that if we deny all prisoners one of the most basic rights of citizenship—that is, the vote—they are less likely to fulfil their responsibilities of citizenship on release?
Lord McNally
That is an opinion that, quite frankly, I share. Perhaps the noble Baroness could come down the Corridor with me and we will try to convince David Davis and Jack Straw.
Land Registration (Network Access) (Amendment) Rules 2011
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Lord McNally
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Land Registration (Network Access) (Amendment) Rules 2011
Relevant documents: 23rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, beat me to the punch by whispering across the point that I was going to make. Looking at her sitting in solitary splendour, I am reminded of the advice that you face your opponents but your enemies are behind you.
The rules before us today amend the Land Registration (Network Access) Rules 2008, which make provision about network access agreements. These are agreements with the Chief Land Registrar conferring authority to have access to the Land Registry’s electronic network on a person who is not a member of the Land Registry.
The purpose of these draft rules is to ensure that the criteria that applicants for a network access agreement must meet are consistent with the terms of the Legal Services Act 2007, which makes provision for the regulation of persons who carry on certain legal activities.
It may be helpful if I say something about land registration legislation and the Legal Services Act before considering these rules in more detail. The Land Registration Act 2002 enables the Chief Land Registrar to set up a land registry network to be used for electronic conveyancing. It provides that a person who is not a member of the Land Registry staff may have access to the network only if authorised by a network access agreement entered into with the Chief Land Registrar. The Land Registration (Network Access) Rules 2008 provide the criteria to be met by an applicant for a network access agreement, and also some of the terms that a network access agreement must contain. A conveyancer with a network access agreement can make electronic applications to the Land Registry that may result in a change to the register of land.
The Legal Services Act 2007 regulates the provision of legal services in England and Wales. Among its provisions, it sets out which legal activities are “reserved”, and who can carry out those reserved legal activities. One category of reserved legal activity is “reserved instrument activity”, which includes preparing certain conveyancing documents for the purposes of the Land Registration Act 2002, and making applications or lodging documents for registration with the Land Registry. Under the Legal Services Act, only an “authorised person” is allowed to carry out a reserved legal activity. “Person” includes a body of persons. The authorised person may be authorised to carry out all or only some of the reserved legal activities. It is a criminal offence to carry on a reserved legal activity if a person is not authorised to do so.
Much of the Legal Services Act 2007 came into force in 2010. Later this year, it is expected that further sections of the Act will come into force that will allow for the introduction of licensed bodies, which are commonly referred to as alternative business structures. The purpose is to relax the statutory and regulatory limitations on the ownership and management of legal practices to allow for greater flexibility and choice in the provision of legal services.
The Land Registration (Network Access) Rules 2008 came into force before the changes made by the Legal Services Act. At that time, the provision of reserved legal activities was subject to the provisions of the Solicitors Act 1974 and various other enactments. The network access rules were drafted to be consistent with those enactments. At that time, the regulation of legal services was based around the regulation of individual solicitors, barristers, licensed conveyancers and notaries. Under the Legal Services Act, there is a move towards the regulation of bodies that deliver legal services.
Now that the Legal Services Act has made changes to the regulation of legal services, and more changes are on their way with the introduction of alternative business structures, it is necessary to amend the network access rules for consistency with the new legislation. It would be inappropriate for the Chief Land Registrar to enter into a network access agreement with a person or body that was not authorised under the Legal Services Act to undertake land registration activities.
The rules before us today amend the criteria to be met by applicants for a network access agreement to bring them into line with the Legal Services Act and to make adjustments to take account of alternative business structures. These rules will allow for a person or body that is authorised under the Legal Services Act to carry on legal activities relating to land registration, or a person or body that employs such an authorised person who will undertake those activities or direct and supervise them, to enter into a network access agreement, provided that they also meet other criteria set out in the network access rules. One class of body that can currently enter into a network access agreement will be unaffected—a government department. This is because of the exemption for public officers from the provisions of the Legal Services Act.
In addition, amendments have been made to the definition of “intervention”, and “disciplinary proceedings” to include reference to licensing authorities which will regulate alternative business structures; and the insurance criterion has been amended so that the words correspond with wording used in the Legal Services Act.
Members of the Committee will see that the amendments will come into force on the day that Section 71 of the Legal Services Act comes into force. That section will allow for the commencement of alternative business structures. In drawing up the amendments, the Government intended to ensure a level playing field for all legal service providers—whether traditional conveyancing practices or alternative business structures. This reflects the policy behind the Legal Services Act.
The Lord Chancellor must consult such persons as he considers appropriate before making rules relating to access to the Land Registry’s electronic network. An impact assessment was also undertaken. The majority of those who responded to the consultation and impact assessment supported the proposals.
In summary, the rules update the criteria for entitlement to a network access agreement with the Chief Land Registrar, reflecting provisions already made by the Legal Services Act. I therefore commend these draft rules to the Committee.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, the important point that should be appreciated—I am sure that it is—is that when a title is registered, it is an absolute title. It can be obtained by fraud or by any other means, but it is an absolute title, once registration has been granted. That means that the person who owns that title can sell it on and deal with it as if it were his own. Any issue as to how that registration has been obtained is left for litigation. Therefore, it is crucial that the integrity of the register is maintained. So much depends on trust. We trust that the people who make these applications will do so honestly, with proper consideration of all the issues and in the interests of their clients. That is why we have all these rules, which endeavour to ensure that the very competent staff of the Land Registry are not deceived by applications from outside.
What is this all about? It brings the alternative business structures system into the position of being an authorised applicant to deal with the Land Registry. I have expressed my views on these alternative business structures so often that I sound a little like Cassandra. However, I foresee trouble. If there is trouble in the future, it is not the lawyers who will suffer; they will do very well. It is the consumer and the customer who will suffer.
There is a lack of confidence in the way that this has been put forward. The summary of the impact assessment says on page 3, under the heading “Other key non-monetised benefits by ‘main affected groups’”:
“The proposals will avoid the potential costs to Land Registry customers outlined in the base case by ensuring only persons authorised to prepare and make applications relating to land registration are able to do so”.
That states the obvious; it is the position at the moment. The summary goes on:
“Land Registry customers may further benefit if the new definition of ‘conveyancer’”—
that is, these rules—
“leads to better quality conveyancing practices compared to current levels”.
Why it should lead to better conveyancing practices than the current system, under which conveyancing is carried out by qualified lawyers or managing executives, I do not know. The summary continues:
“Ensuring ABS firms fall within the definition should also lead to increased competition in the conveyancing market, which may provide efficiency benefits for society, and direct benefits for Land Registry customers in the form of lower prices and/or increased choice”.
The sort of situation that I envisage, particularly in a tight housing market, is that developers will offer a conveyancing service, or an ABS. They will have an interest in the outcome of the conveyance of their own homes and access to the registry. They may act for both parties. All the checks and balances that have developed over the years to protect the consumer and householder will be weakened.
I have had my usual rant on this subject, so I shall leave it at that. I cannot say that I welcome this measure.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I shall make a brief intervention on this, with a couple of quick questions. In the Explanatory Notes somewhere it says that the first alternative business structures will be established in October this year. Is it anticipated that that is the case? Furthermore, there is mention of an informal consolidated text in the document. What is the state of an informal consolidated text, as opposed to a proper consolidated body of law?
I very much welcome the update of the Land Registry portal guidance notes, which will be important. However, following on from what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has said, and the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, there are clearly potential problems with this order. There is to be a post-implementation review in 2015. I have two things to say about that. In view of the concerns expressed by noble Lords, are the five years before there is any sort of review not a little too long? If consumers have been found to be suffering as a result of this order, perhaps the Government might seek to act before then. If the review finds that the policy objectives of the order have not been met and that consumers have been harmed as a result, will the Government seek to act and revise the order in some way to ensure that consumers do not continue to suffer as a result?
Lord McNally
I am grateful to noble Lords who have participated. On the important question of when alternative business structures will be introduced, the Legal Services Board and the Ministry of Justice are working towards October 2011 for implementation. The noble Baroness was in government long enough to know that saying that we are working towards that is as firm a commitment as I can make at this precise moment—but that is the objective.
On the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, about the importance of the integrity of the Land Registry process, I need no urging on that. I am the Minister responsible for the Land Registry. One thing that I continually impress on colleagues from other departments is that we have a very important public asset in the trust that people put in the Land Registry process, and rightly so. For the great majority of us, the title and ownership of our property—those of us who are house owners—represents the biggest investment that we ever make in our lives. So the integrity of that process is extremely important. Although I have heard before the doubts expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, about alternative business structures, I would not go so far as to describe him as a Conservative on matters of legal structures.
Our aim is to bring what we hope will be some exciting competitive pressures into the delivery of legal services, and those responsible for delivery will keep a close eye on things. In a recent meeting on related matters, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, attending in her capacity as chair of the Legal Services Consumer Panel, expressed confidence in the overall checks and balances being put in place. Alternative business structures will provide opportunities for practitioners from different professions, legal and non-legal, to join up to ensure that it is economically viable for them to continue to provide legal and associated services and gain efficiency savings.
Although we promised a review after five years, Land Registry constantly reviews its practices and will review the network access rules if alternative business structures result, paying particular regard to consumers.
The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, spoke about the use of databases—I think that he referred to the suspicious activity database. Thorough checks are made before entering into network access agreements and continuing checks are made to make sure that there is no abuse. However, the noble Lord raised an interesting broader point. The advance of technology has meant that the ability of the state and private industry to amass vast amounts of information about the individual could pose a threat to their civil liberties. I shall quote, as I do frequently in other places, something that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, once said to me. He said that in a free society there must be a limit to what the state knows about the individual. In our modern world, vast amounts of information are amassed. What is more, there is almost limitless technological ability to exchange that information unless checks and balances are put in place. That is partly the responsibility of government and Parliament.
I hope that I have covered the points that colleagues have raised. As I have said, the measures bring the various Acts into kilter and anticipate new structures. On that basis, I hope that the Committee will agree the Motion.
Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2011
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Lord McNally
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2011
Relevant documents: 23rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, as the Committee will be aware, the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 exists to support the resettlement of offenders into society where they have demonstrated that they have put their criminal behaviour behind them. After a prolonged period of time, therefore, the Act declares convictions spent and an ex-offender need no longer declare them. When they apply for jobs, or seek insurance, they need not disclose this information and subsequently not suffer the potential discrimination as a result of it.
There must of course be exceptions to this rule. Where, for example, someone is applying to work with children or with vulnerable adults, it is appropriate that the employer knows the full history of the individual. The exceptions order to the Act is the means by which this is achieved.
The exceptions order lists certain activities that are exempt from the Act. This means that where an individual is applying for a job within a specified activity or is involved in specified proceedings, their full criminal record history is available to the employer. If an individual has a conviction that has been declared spent, the prospective employer will then see it. We must be careful not to jeopardise the operation of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, so the activities listed on the exceptions order are only those that present an opportunity for people involved to cause harm to the public or the work concerned is of a sensitive nature, which might include children, the finance sector or national security.
This careful balance between allowing offenders to lead law-abiding lives by removing barriers and maintaining public protection needs to keep pace with the present. The exceptions order must therefore remain up to date with developments elsewhere. The order presented today is an illustration of the Government seeking to maintain this balance in line with the developments occurring in the financial and legal sectors.
Noble Lords will know that wide proposals for reform of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act are being considered by the Government. Today is not the day to debate these, and I cannot make further announcements at this stage.
The current exceptions order enables the Financial Services Authority to take spent convictions into account when authorising a person to carry out regulated activities under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. This amendment will enable the Financial Services Authority to take spent convictions into account when authorising a new category of business—payments institutions.
Payments institutions were brought within the scope of regulation by the Financial Services Authority in 2009. They provide payment services, for example enabling cash to be placed in or withdrawn from a payment account, and range from large credit card companies to sole traders offering to send money abroad for a small fee. Money remitters, for example, transfer large amounts of money to and from overseas, with many specialising in remitting funds to specific accounts, such as in India, Pakistan or Poland, on behalf of immigrant communities. In many cases these customers are financially disadvantaged people, who have limited access to the banking system.
There have been a number of failures of business in the money remittance industry, and the failures have uncovered an element of mismanagement, financial impropriety or fraud. It is therefore important that the Financial Services Authority can assess those responsible for management of these businesses before authorising them to carry on business. This amendment will therefore bring payments institutions within the exceptions order so that the Financial Services Authority can take into account the full background of those responsible for the management of these bodies.
The second amendment relates to the introduction of alternative business structures, which will allow lawyers and non-lawyers to work together to provide legal and non-legal services. These bodies will be licensed and regulated by licensing authorities. Two new roles—head of legal practice and head of finance administration—are being introduced and will be responsible for an alternative business structure’s compliance with their licence. Licensing authorities must be satisfied that individuals applying to be heads of legal practice and heads of finance administration are fit and proper persons for appointment. In particular, not only will persons in these roles be responsible for compliance with the body’s licence, they could have access to vulnerable clients, client money and personal or sensitive client information. Making this amendment means that licensing authorities can seek information on previous convictions and cautions from applicants seeking to take up the role of head of legal practice and head of finance and administration. This will ensure that they are fit and proper for appointment.
I am aware that a further request has recently been made by the Legal Services Board for non-lawyer owners and managers of alternative business structures to be added to the exceptions order. At this early stage, no decision has been made. We will of course give careful consideration to this request, and this process is under way.
The final amendment is one of wording only. There is currently an entry on the exceptions order relating to “actuary”. The term is currently defined in the exceptions order as,
“a member of the Institute of Actuaries or a member or student of the Faculty of Actuaries”.
On 1 August 2010, these two bodies merged to become the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries. In order to continue to give effect to the applicable exception the definition is to be updated to reflect this change.
I hope that I will have the agreement of all noble Lords that the exceptions order is an important means of protecting the public. The instrument presented today responds to the latest analysis of risks. It therefore ensures that legislation is up to date and effective in its aim, while maintaining the vital balance towards the resettlement of offenders that the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act seeks to achieve. I beg to move.
Lord Hunt of Wirral
My Lords, I declare an interest in the global firm of solicitors, Beachcroft LLP, where I have been a partner since 1969, and as vice-chairman of Justice. I say that with trepidation in the presence of the emeritus chairman of Justice—my noble friend Lord Goodhart—because Justice must deserve a great deal of credit for the original rehabilitation of offenders legislation.
However, I need help from my noble friend the Minister on giving a commitment—a commitment that was given by the party opposite when it had responsibility. I also gave personal commitments when I was leading for the Opposition from the Front Bench and made it clear, right at the outset, that a single set of regulatory standards would be required for alternative business structures.
The Minister has received a fascinating brief from his officials to explain the mistake in singling out “head of legal practice” or “head of finance and administration”. I warmly commend the officials for having thought up this reason, but it was two years ago that we made it clear that it is the owners and managers of the alternative business structures who must be the people in the spotlight. It may well be that they will need under them a head of legal practice or finance and administration, but at the end of the day the key role played by the owner/investor/manager of the alternative business structures must mean that they should be subject to the same authorisation rules as solicitors in regard to disclosing criminal offences. Why? Because we must ensure, as both Front Benches agreed we had to, that convicted criminals are not able to become owners and managers of legal practices.
It is not just that a request has only just been received from the Legal Services Board, because it was in June 2009 that the Solicitors Regulation Authority made it clear that a single set of regulatory standards would be required. Why on earth this is not included now I just do not know, because what it means is that someone who has served a sentence for a serious crime such as money laundering does not have to disclose this when applying to be an owner or investor in an alternative business structure firm.
I suppose that my noble friend can immediately move to give me assistance by promising that there will be a further order to rectify this omission, which will then make it clear that the exemption of course also applies to owners and managers of ABS firms, as well as to the heads of legal practice and finance and administration within those firms.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I also support what noble Lords opposite have said. Of course, as the Minister said, we have to be careful not to jeopardise the workings of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, but there clearly have to be exceptions. Like noble Lords opposite, frankly I do not understand why this order does not encompass ABS firms, or the head of legal practice and head of finance administration, to which the Minister referred. In view of the strong feelings that have been expressed in Committee this afternoon, I wonder whether the Minister would consider taking back this order and relaying it once proper consideration has been given to the inclusion of the owners of ABS firms. I think that all noble Lords present would like to see one single set of regulations. That would make for much better government and much better governance, and I should be grateful for the Minister’s views.
If the noble Lord is not able to take back this order—and he may not be able to do so—I should be grateful for an assurance that he will come back in the very near future with another order that encompasses the ownership of ABS firms. I quote from his honourable friend Jonathan Djanogly, who, when speaking for the Conservative opposition in the House of Commons—I am afraid that I do not have the words of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, in front of me—said:
“The effectiveness of fitness-to-own provisions is a crucial element of the public protections that need to be in place before external ownership of ABS firms can safely be permitted. It is essential to avoid the spectre of law firms being owned by criminal elements”.—[Official Report, Commons, Legal Services Bill Committee, 22/6/07; col. 300.]
I think that, unless we have an order before us in the very near future that encompasses ABS firms, we will indeed have that spectre before us.
Lord McNally
I knew I was right when I said that the enemies are behind me, but very constructive enemies they have been. One of the benefits of this procedure is that we can examine orders such as this in a non-partisan but expert way. As much as it is within my power to give the assurances that the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has asked for, I give those assurances. The points that have been made by my noble friends during this debate should be treated with proper urgency. I am not in a position to withdraw the order, which covers matters that it is important to take forward. However, the noble Baroness is quite right: in opposition both Jonathan Djanogly in the other place and my noble friend Lord Hunt made it very clear that the effectiveness of fitness-to-own provisions was a crucial element of the consumer protection measures that needed to be in place for all ABSs. That position has not changed.
I can assure the Committee that the gist of this debate—or at least Hansard—will be made known to my colleagues in the Ministry of Justice, along with the strong message that a sense of urgency is needed in taking this matter forward. The argument that a compelling case and a clear understanding of the potential risks are needed to justify inclusion in exception orders is valid. Licensing authorities have a range of regulatory powers and will be required to put in place strict licensing rules to ensure that licensing bodies are properly regulated and consumers adequately protected.
Nevertheless, I accept the point made by my noble friend Lord Dholakia. I hope we can carry forward his initiative in producing a new Private Member’s Bill that updates the Act. If we are to get general public support for a rehabilitation of offenders Act, and carry public confidence in it, we must have exception orders to give the protections that the public require. Certainly, the case made today for owners being part of the Act is, to my mind as a lay man, almost unanswerable. I hear what has been said. It would seem only natural to a simple lay man that owners and managers of ABSs should be included in the order. I will take the very strong recommendations of this Committee back to colleagues. In the mean time, I ask the Committee to accept this order.
Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 (Commencement No. 3) Order 2011
Lord McNally Excerpts(15 years ago)
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Lord McNally
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 (Commencement No. 3) Order 2011.
Relevant documents: 23rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the commercial order would implement Section 2(1)(d) of the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007. The amendment order would add two categories of person to the list contained in Section 2(2) of the Act. These are persons owed a duty of care by virtue of either being held in the custody area of UK Border Agency customs facilities or being held in Ministry of Defence service custody premises.
The purpose of the commencement order is to implement Section 2(1)(d) of the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007—which I shall refer to as the “custody provisions”. The amendment order will extend the provisions to facilities not already covered in the Act; namely, Ministry of Defence service custody premises and customs custody facilities which have now become the responsibility of the UK Border Agency.
Before going into the detail of the orders, I shall briefly remind Members of the Committee of the context surrounding the custody provisions. The Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 created an offence whereby an organisation could be found guilty of corporate manslaughter if the way in which its activities were managed or organised resulted in a death and amounted to a gross breach of a relevant duty of care to the deceased. The breach must be grossly negligent and a substantial part of it must have been in the way activities were managed by senior management.
The offence was created to deal with the problem of obtaining convictions of corporate bodies because of the operation of the identification principle, which required the prosecution to show that the offence was in essence committed by the “directing mind” of an organisation. This meant that, in some instances, because of the complexities of the decision-making process in big companies, it was not possible to identify a single individual—that is to say, the directing mind—with specific responsibility for the failing. The new offence allows an organisation’s liability to be assessed on a wider basis, providing a more effective means of accountability for very serious management failings across the organisation.
The majority of the Act came into force on 6 April 2008, with the exception of the custody provisions, whose implementation Parliament agreed would be delayed by three to five years. During the final stages of the Bill’s passage through Parliament, a lengthy discussion took place as to whether deaths in custody should be covered by the Act. After much debate, the then Government were finally persuaded to accept clauses that would extend the Act to the management of custody, but argued that custody providers would need time to prepare. A compromise agreement was reached to the effect that the custody provisions would be implemented between three and five years after the Act came into force. The Bill was passed on this basis. Custody providers have since indicated their readiness to implement the provisions in two reports to Parliament, published in 2008 and 2009.
The custody provisions do not create additional duties. All custody providers already owe duties of care to detainees. The commencement order makes these duties of care relevant for the purposes of the offence in the Act, which means that, once commenced, an organisation responsible for the management of custody, including a government department, could be convicted of corporate manslaughter if its management failings led to a death.
The commencement order simply illustrates the coalition Government’s long-standing commitment to commence a provision which we fought for during the passage of the Bill. We felt then, and still do now, that there is no good reason why a victim of a failing by a government department should not be afforded the same protection as the victim of a failing by a private corporation. We believe that the state has a particular responsibility to those for whom it has a duty of care, such as persons held in custody, and should lead by example. Having established that custody providers are ready to comply with the custody provisions in the Act, we are here today to debate commencement of the provisions at the earliest available opportunity.
We are here today also to debate an amendment order which brings military and customs facilities into the scope of the Act. This is an important amendment that ensures that the law will be applied consistently to all custody providers. The intention to extend the Act is nothing new; it was signalled in the annual progress report that I have already mentioned, and we have been assured by the relevant departments that the custody providers concerned are ready for implementation.
As with commencement, the question is not so much why extend but what possible reason can there be not to extend. I put it to the House that there is none. I believe that both orders constitute positive and necessary developments, and I trust that the members of this Committee will agree.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, it is helpful to put this order into some context. The corporate manslaughter provisions were considered by the Independent Advisory Panel on Deaths in Custody. When one looks at the statistics on page 9 of the report, which was a joint Ministry of Justice and Home Office report, one sees that in 1999 there were 643 deaths in state custody. That number has reduced in the past two years to 483 and 366, but that is a lot of people who have died in custody. It is important that there should be corporate responsibility, not simply for claims of negligence but for criminal claims. We are very pleased that this order is now being introduced.
I have two questions for the Minister. One relates to service custody. Do I take it that the Ministry of Defence could be criminally liable for a death in service custody abroad? The other matter that concerns me is whether the private organisations that provide prison accommodation and in particular transport come within the provisions of the Act, so that any default on their part means that they will be subject to criminal liability as well as to liability in civil law.
Lord McNally
I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate and for the general welcome that has been given to the orders.
On the question asked by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, Section 28 provides that the Act extends only to England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland; it will not apply to Ministry of Defence facilities abroad. If I am wrong about that I shall write to my noble friend. However, I believe that to be correct.
On the issue of private providers, which was referred to by both the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, the Act applies to contracted services. Contracted service providers of custody will continue to be responsible for their actions in delivering safe custody. The Act does not place new duties on them. We will retain residual responsibilities in relation to the management and monitoring of the contractual arrangements, and they will be covered by the Act in this respect. They will have the same duties of care.
On the issue of inspection, in respect of the Border Agency customs facilities, a review relating to the care of an arrested teenager was initiated as a result of a death in custody in 2007 and is due to be finalised by the Chief Medical Officer. Once the recommendations have been finalised, the UKBA will be reviewing its processes and initiating an implementation programme.
In respect of the MoD, the Army has reviewed its need for service custody facilities and in September 2010 endorsed some recommendations, including an immediate reduction of authorised unit custodial facilities from 67 to 22.
The points made by the Committee have been extremely relevant, not least the rather chilling figures of the number of deaths in custody. Over recent years—this applies also to the record of the previous Administration—there has been a consistent attempt by government to address the problems. My noble friend Lord Thomas will agree that the bald figures cover a range of reasons for death in custody. Nevertheless, in recent years the police, prison authorities and all those who have a duty of care have made a real effort to address the reasons for deaths and to prevent them wherever possible. They have changed techniques for dealing with violent prisoners, changed the furniture in cells and limited opportunities for suicides. They have introduced a whole range of activities and initiatives to tackle the problem.
There is no doubt that the Government, as the state, freely accept in this order the responsibilities that they imposed on the private sector with the initial Act. I remember my noble friend Lord Goodhart and others pressing these matters when we were in opposition and I am pleased that we are able to bring these orders together.
Criminal justice is devolved in Northern Ireland and the local Minister and Assembly have the relevant commencement powers under the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act, which we understand the Assembly is looking at. I am the Minister in the MoJ responsible for contact with the devolved Assemblies and Administrations and I shall make sure that our views on and experiences of this aspect are made available to our colleagues in Northern Ireland.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
In relation to private provision of prison and transport facilities, what is the relationship between those private facilities and the department? Could the department resist a charge under the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act on the basis that the responsibility has been contracted out? My noble friend may not be able to answer straightaway, but I would be grateful if he could clarify that at some stage.
Lord McNally
I certainly cannot answer that directly; I will have to write. It is an interesting point. I shall not mention providers by name, but if a private prison or a private transporter of prisoners was guilty of corporate manslaughter, would the line of responsibility run back to the MoJ? I take it that that is the point. It is an interesting point. I suspect that, on the one hand, the suggestion would be that the responsibility for the corporate manslaughter would be that of the provider and that the provider would be charged; on the other hand, there is the argument that the MoJ should never have given the contract to such a body in the first place. This is what makes this job both interesting and frightening at times. I shall write to my noble friend to clarify.
Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 (Amendment) Order 2011
Lord McNally Excerpts(15 years ago)
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Lord McNally
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 (Amendment) Order 2011
Relevant documents: 23rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
Prisons: HM Young Offender Institution Feltham
Lord McNally Excerpts(15 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Ramsbotham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of the recommendations of the public inquiry into the murder of Zahid Mubarek in HM Young Offender Institution Feltham, published on 29 June 2006, remain unimplemented.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the National Offender Management Service has fully implemented 71 of the 88 recommendations made in the report of the Zahid Mubarek inquiry. Two recommendations were rejected at the time of the publication of the report. The remaining 15 recommendations were either partially implemented or have become obsolete as a result of other developments.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Nineteen year-old Zahid Mubarek was murdered in March 2000 by a known racist psychopath with whom he had been paired in a cell by prison staff. Three and a half years later, your Lordships took the unprecedented step of directing that there should be a public inquiry into the murder, resisted until then by successive Home Secretaries. Its report was published five years ago today, following which, for two years or so, the Home Office convened regular meetings with the Mubarek family to update them on the processing of the 88 recommendations. These meetings have ceased. To demonstrate to the family and to others who are interested that improving the treatment of and conditions for black and ethnic-minority prisoners remains on the agenda, I ask the Minister if he would be kind enough to publish not only the details of how many recommendations have not been implemented but also what action, or inaction, has been taken on each one of them.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I shall certainly do that. I have four or five pages of briefing on actions here and I shall put some of them in the Library. It is not a matter of inaction or refusal to implement; as I said in my initial reply, some of the recommendations have been bypassed by the implementation of other policies. It is certainly true that many lessons were learnt from this tragedy. Contact with the family continued, as the noble Lord said. The thrust and direction of policy that the inquiry initiated has gone on apace, in a way which, we hope, will avoid as far as humanly possible such a tragedy happening again.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, exactly what is the position with regard to overcrowding at Feltham, which is one of the reasons that lay behind the tragic events to which the Minister referred?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am not sure that there is overcrowding, unless one is talking about the ability to provide every prisoner with a single cell. That was one of the recommendations that could not be accepted, simply because the provision of single-cell accommodation would put such pressure on capacity that it could not be delivered. Both staff training and assessment before arranging cell sharing are much more thorough than before. As I said, we hope that this will avoid the kind of tragedy that the Mubarek murder revealed.
Lord Elton
My Lords, the report revealed the most woeful state of the paper trail, as it is called, of the documents that are supposed to go with prisoners but very often do not—many of the documents did not arrive. The report said that an important contributory factor related to the Learmont recommendation, made in 1995, that a central electronic database for prisoner security information should be established. Has that been fully established and, if so, with what results?
Lord McNally
I am not sure whether that has been fully established, but I will write to my noble friend on the specifics of whether the 1995 recommendations have been fully implemented. Sometimes with these reports, there is a gap between full implementation and actual practicality and resources. However, I know that, in terms of assessing prisoners for cell sharing, and indeed in dealing with prisoners during their time in custody, there has been much improved sharing of information among the various agencies. In the host prison, from the governor downwards, there is now as full as possible an assessment of the prisoner’s susceptibilities that would make it better or not for them to be cell sharers.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, following the suicide of failed asylum seekers, what assessment is there of the possibility of such suicides taking place?
Lord McNally
My Lords, there is constant assessment of suicide risk for anyone who is held in custody. Certainly as far as I understand them, these assessments are very thorough in trying to avoid suicide. On the specific point, which goes slightly wide of the Question, I will look at the issue and write to my noble friend.
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale
Can the Minister confirm that there has been a welcome reduction in the number of convicted prisoners in young offender institutions? Is it the department’s policy, over time, to try to achieve in so far as is possible single-cell occupancy by young offenders?
Lord McNally
I do not think that I can make that commitment from the Dispatch Box. In part, that is because part of the advice that we get—this relates back to the suicide issue as well—is that the assessment made of young offenders sometimes shows that cell sharing could be of benefit in the circumstances, rather than leaving them in isolation. I make no bones about the fact that it is partly a matter of the resources that would be required for single-cell accommodation, but we also get strong professional advice that, in some circumstances, cell sharing can be of benefit to the young people concerned.
Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, what can be obsolete as a matter of policy in respect of the law of murder?
Lord McNally
For example, some of the recommendations in the report related to cell furniture, which had already been changed by the time that the report came out. Part of the difficulty was that some cell furniture could too readily be used for violence. There were changes to the design of cell furniture—for example, bolting cell furniture to the floor so that it could not be so easily used—so that, by the time that the report came out, the recommendation on cell furniture was obsolete.
Social Welfare Law
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, our proposals for the future of social welfare law were contained in our response to the consultation paper, Proposals for the Reform of legal aid in England and Wales, made on 21 June. We announced that we would retain legal aid for the highest priority cases, including cases where a person is homeless or at immediate risk of homelessness or to address housing disrepairs that pose a serious risk to life or health and for community care cases. We have decided that legal aid will no longer be routinely available in other social welfare law matters, except for claims currently funded relating to the contravention of the Equality Act 2010.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. A better name for social welfare law would be poverty law. Often through CABs, law centres and private solicitors, this legal aid goes to giving legal advice to the poor and marginalised on legal problems around housing, debt, employment and welfare benefits. The Government, as we have just heard, intend to decimate this type of cost-effective legal aid. Does the noble Lord agree with the reported remarks of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, that these changes will have,
“a disproportionate effect upon the poorest and most vulnerable in society”?
Does he also agree that this removal of access to justice—because that is what it is—is precisely what the late noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham, meant when he wrote that,
“denial of legal protection to the poor litigant who cannot afford to pay is one enemy of the rule of law”?
Lord McNally
My Lords, under our proposals, legal aid will be retained in the highest priority housing cases, where a person’s home is at immediate risk, for homelessness, serious disrepair, unlawful eviction, orders for the sale of the home, and asylum support cases relating to accommodation. Legal aid will be available in debt matters where a person’s home is at immediate risk. We will still be spending about £50 million a year on this section of legal aid.
I have read the comments of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale. I have said from this Dispatch Box that if you have a policy that is aimed at the poorest in our society and you cut the budget, of course there will be an inevitable impact. But in trying to develop this policy we have tried to minimise that impact and focus our resources on those most in need.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, would my noble friend like to take a short journey down to the Lambeth County Court and other comparable courts in London, Manchester, Sheffield and other cities, where he would find if he spent half a day there that the only way in which to get your house repaired is to sue the local council? All other measures to obtain house repairs are not succeeding. He would then perhaps realise that limiting legal aid to quite the extent which the Government are ambitious to limit it is going a step too far.
Lord McNally
Well, I hear what my noble friend is saying. The department was faced with some very hard decisions on a £2 billion cut in a department which, as I have said before, has expenditure on only four areas—prisons, probation, legal aid and on the administration of justice. We have tried to focus where we can on areas of need. I was very interested in the editorial in the Guardian on legal aid, which was headed, “Unjust cuts”. In the course of that editorial, it said:
“It is now being examined for the eighth time since the Children Act 1989”.
The noble Lord knows very well that his own Administration were looking hard at legal aid and how to cut it. It went on:
“The need for reform, and for a more cost-effective system, is undisputed … Professionals acknowledge that too many of these cases come to court, and welcome the proposal for greater use of mediation … Change is needed. There are savings to be made”.
That is under the title of “Unjust cuts”. Those are the realities that we are facing.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, there is considerable disquiet among welfare law agencies about the impact of the withdrawal of legal aid from welfare benefits law at the very time when that law is to be changed significantly. Can the Minister therefore please advise the House as to what steps the Government will take to ensure there is adequate independent advice and assistance for all those affected by the welfare reform legislation?
Lord McNally
The hope and the intention is that we can give further assistance to those who are giving advice. One of the analyses we make of this area of law—this goes partly back to the question asked by my noble friend—is that it is not necessarily legal advice that is needed. There may be alternative forms of advice to enable people to manage their way through these difficulties. These problems have been raised with us and we will continue to keep them under review. I take the point that the noble Baroness has made.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
Will my noble friend kindly think again about this whole issue because it really is a case of penny wise, pound foolish? The citizens advice bureaux, which deliver help to 2.1 million people a year and are mainly volunteer manned, reckon that for every £1 of government subsidy they save the Exchequer £8 in welfare advice. How can it conceivably make sense, therefore, to go ahead with cutting their subsidy from £27 million this year to £7 million next year?
Lord McNally
My Lords, perhaps I can answer both that question and the one that the noble Baroness has just posed by saying that the Government recognise the important role played by not-for-profit organisations and citizens advice bureaux. We are working with the sector, and across Government, to ensure that the implementation of government reforms helps to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of advice services available to the public. My right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor will by now, I hope, have announced in another place that we will be providing additional funds of about £20 million in this financial year to help achieve this. We will continue discussions with CABs and not-for-profit organisations about future funding.
Gender Recognition (Approved Countries and Territories) Order 2011
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Lord McNally
That the draft orders laid before the House on 26 April, 17 May and 23 May be approved.
Relevant documents: 20th and 23rd Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 27 June.