Freedom of Information (Time for Compliance with Request) Regulations 2010
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Lord McNally
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Freedom of Information (Time for Compliance with Request) Regulations 2010.
Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, perhaps I may say to my noble friend Lady Harris what a pleasure it is to make my debut ministerial statutory instrument speech in the Moses Room under her chairmanship.
The purpose of these regulations is to allow academies more time to respond to freedom of information requests to take account of school closures, for example during school holidays.
The Freedom of Information Act gives any person the legal right to request access to recorded information held by a public authority. The Act applies to over 100,000 public authorities, and last year central government-monitored bodies received more than 40,000 requests, which is a 16 per cent increase on the number received the year before. Under the Act, freedom of information requests must be responded to promptly, normally within 20 working days. It is right that people making requests should receive a timely response.
However, there are limited occasions when the deadline is impractical. That is why regulations have previously been made in 2004 and 2009 to provide maintained schools in England and Wales, and schools and pupil referral units in Northern Ireland, with an extension to the usual 20 working-day time limit in dealing with FOI requests in certain circumstances.
Other organisations that have been provided with an extended time limit to respond to requests for information include: archives, to deal with requests for information contained in a public record that has been transferred from a closed file, because one of the freedom of information exemptions applies; operations of the Armed Forces requests, where information needs to be obtained from front-line units of the Armed Forces and they cannot be reached for operational reasons; and requests involving information that is held outside the UK and will take time to retrieve.
The Academies Act 2010 extended the Freedom of Information Act to proprietors of academies. Like other schools, academies can also face difficulties in answering requests received during periods of closure and other times when they are unstaffed. This is a particular problem during school holidays, which can be around six weeks long and therefore longer than the 20 working days normally permitted for a response.
Without this extension in place, academies may find themselves in a position whereby they will unavoidably be unable to comply with the time limits provided for under the Act, and I am sure that noble Lords will agree with me that this is neither fair nor sensible. These regulations will ensure that proprietors of academies have the same reasonable allowance in respect of the time limit for responding to requests as other schools in England, Wales and Northern Ireland that are subject to the FOI Act.
If the regulations are made, proprietors of academies would not have to count any day that is not a school day, such as during the school holidays, towards the period of 20 working days within which requests must be answered. However, under the regulations, requests must be answered within a maximum of 60 working days, including any period of closure.
However, these regulations do not mean that academies can delay responding to requests. They will be required to answer requests promptly. Where it is possible for an academy to respond earlier to a request, the response cannot be delayed until the end of the extended time limit. I beg to move.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, the Minister said that academies cannot delay; I wish to argue that they can delay, and I will set out the circumstances in which they can and which cause me concern about these regulations.
I am a regular user of the freedom of information legislation that applies to all public bodies—I have a number of applications outstanding with both government departments and local authorities at the moment—and I ask the Committee to recognise that while academies fulfil the same function as maintained schools in the state sector, they are different in that they comprise a greater element of independence, and it is that independence and the influence of that independence on the management of such schools that worries me.
Under existing legislation, educational institutions can be quite tardy in dealing with freedom of information applications. Unlike government departments and local authorities, whom I find fairly reliable, educational institutions can often be difficult. The problem with these regulations is that they are not accompanied by safeguards. In my view, this will lead to an abuse of the system. If evidence of abuse is needed, we need do no more than consider the report of the Campaign for Freedom of Information, which, when reporting on delays by the Information Commissioner in completing investigations, found that the completion of 46 per cent of the cases it handled were delayed by one or two years, 25 per cent by between two and three years, and 5 per cent by more than three years. When it wrote its report, one case showed a delay of three years 9 months after the Information Commissioner had dealt with the report. I understand that efforts are being made by the Information Commissioner to tighten up on these delays, but what we are doing today may hinder applications unless proper safeguards are introduced.
Let me give an example of what happens when educational institutions decide they want to delay and deny the public information they should have in the public interest. A maintained school within the United Kingdom, which could easily become an academy, decided upon a course of action which we will describe for the purposes of the debate as its project. The project was opposed by a number of expert organisations, one of which took the school to court, and huge legal fees were paid to fund the case of the expert objector. An MP took an interest in the case in the other House, advised against the action and used freedom of information legislation to unravel the affair. On 20 February 2008, the MP wrote to the school to establish the cost to the school of defending its action in proceeding with the project, the source of the funding, the role of the local authority, what legal advice had been given to the school, and the role played by the head and the governing body.
We should remember that these regulations will extend the period that schools have to reply to questions under freedom of information legislation. The school replied and refused to provide the information. On 15 March 2008, the MP applied under freedom of information legislation; the school still refused. On 15 May, the MP wrote to the school asking for an internal review of the decision to refuse to comply. There was no reply from the school. On 29 July 2008, the MP approached the Information Commissioner. On 11 September 2008, 44 days later, the Information Commissioner replied, saying that he had asked the school to issue a review within 20 days. On 23 October, a further 42 days later and eight months after the original request, the school revealed that it had spent £76,000 on legal costs to that date. The school carried on refusing to answer the other questions. Perhaps now the relevance of the 60 days may be dawning on Members of the Committee.
In March 2009, the MP made a fresh application, asking further questions under FOI. The school again refused to respond. On 16 April 2009, the MP wrote again to the school under FOI; the school later claimed that it had lost the letter. The MP sent a copy of the letter to the school; the school replied but again failed to answer the questions. In May 2009, the MP wrote to the school offering to extend the deadline by 20 days. On 27 May 2009, the school replied with evasive answers. On 9 June 2009, the MP wrote to the school, asking for an internal review of the decision to refuse to comply. On 6 July 2009, the school replied with evasive answers, hiding behind spurious exemptions.
On 15 July 2009, the MP wrote to the Information Commissioner to complain about the refusal to answer questions. Three months later, on 8 October 2009—one and a half years after the original application and three months after the complaint to the commissioner—the school wrote to reveal that £170,000 had been spent on legal costs. The school still refused to answer the other questions. The Information Commissioner then gave the school until 4 November to answer questions. On 23 November, the Information Commissioner stated: “Unfortunately, the authority”—that is, the school—
“initially struggled to understand the role of the Information Commissioner’s Office … as regulator of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 … I am, however, pleased to confirm that it now has a full understanding of our role and is working towards providing a full response by the 7th December 2009”.
A month later the Information Commissioner made a further statement, saying that,
“it appears that the authority still does not fully understand the role of the ICO. The Commissioner has today therefore issued an Information Notice to the Authority … compelling a Public Authority to provide the Commissioner with a copy of the disputed … information. The Authority has 30 days … from the date of the Notice to comply. Failure to comply may result in the commissioner making written certification of this fact to the High Court … I do however hope that that will not prove necessary”.
That was nearly 11 months ago.
In May 2010, the Information Commissioner revealed that a freedom of information notice to the school, dated 17 December 2009, had to be cancelled on legal advice because it had been addressed to the school, as against the governing body of the school. On 9 July 2010, the Information Commissioner wrote to the MP to state that the corrected information notice was being appealed by the school. In August 2010, the tribunal dismissed the appeal. The school then offered the Information Commissioner half-answers to the questions asked, which the Information Commissioner regarded as inadequate. The Information Commissioner then gave the school 14 days—as I understand it, to 21 October—to answer. So, it has taken two and a half years to get precisely nowhere on what I regard as perhaps the most significant piece of legislation of the Labour Government in the past 12 years. The school refused to answer the questions, making a mockery of the Act.
Today, we are considering giving institutions, which will be the subject of greater private sector influence, an additional 60 days without building into this new power for academies—at least, it is available in the maintained sector—any safeguards to prevent what I referred to happening again in the future. Although I am in favour of the 60-day period, I believe that the Government should now review this legislation with a view to reconsidering the powers available to the Information Commissioner for enforcement of the law. We cannot allow schools and other bodies to make a mockery of the legislation in the way that I have described.
Baroness Gale
My Lords, first, I congratulate the Minister on making his debut on statutory instruments. It is good to be working with him again. As he may recall, in the late 1970s when I was working in the Labour Party office in Cardiff and the Minister was in No. 10, we often had little chats about what the Prime Minister would be doing when he came to Wales. It is good to be working with him again, although I do not think that at the time either of us thought that we would be working on opposite sides of the Chamber.
I thank the noble Lord for his remarks and for his explanation of the statutory instrument. My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours has raised some very interesting points, to which I am sure the Minister will reply. However, I believe that the safeguards are there in that academy proprietors remain subject to the obligation to respond promptly. If a request can be answered in less than the maximum period allowed, they must do so, and the SI can be reviewed by the Information Commissioner if there is a significant increase in the number of complaints from requesters.
With those assurances, I am happy to say that we agree that the statutory instrument is very sensible. It will make the workings of this section of the Act clear and understandable to all concerned. As it is so straightforward, we therefore have no objection to it.
Lord McNally
Oh yes, I remember it well. It was a very happy period indeed and a clear demonstration that Governments can get through very difficult economic problems.
I am very grateful for the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, which was made with his usual thoroughness. I am unable to comment on individual cases but I shall read very carefully the Hansard report of this debate and send it to the Information Commissioner. As one who was very much a supporter of the Freedom of Information Act, I want to see it work. I am therefore very grateful for the noble Lord’s contribution because it is important that the Information Commissioner has the capacity to enforce the power.
On the backlog, I saw the Information Commissioner recently and he was able to assure me that significant progress was being made. I think that there was a period when his office did not deal with matters quickly enough, but a real effort has been made to speed things up and I think that we are now well on track. In addition, in November and December the Department for Education and Skills is holding a training event for academy principals and chairs of governing bodies to acquaint them with their responsibilities under the Act. Written guidance on handling requests will also be provided to the academies. I am grateful for the support of the Opposition and for the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.
Coroners: Terminally Ill Patients
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Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they plan to take to decrease the variation in coroners’ responses to the anticipated deaths of terminally ill patients at home.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the Government are committed to improving the coroner system. In taking forward the changes outlined in my Written Statement of 14 October, we shall be considering the secondary legislation and guidance which governs coroner investigations. The issue that the noble Baroness raises will be included as part of that work.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
I thank the Minister for that reply, but how will the Government detect, evaluate and deal with the poor performance of a coroner without the long awaited chief coroner? Quite specifically, what powers are in place to influence Greater Manchester’s coroners’ anomalous ruling that the expected deaths of terminally ill patients at home must be referred to the police if the GP is unavailable to write the death certificate, tying up between 4,000 and 8,000 hours of police time annually, and causing unnecessary distress to families who have complied with the patient’s wishes to be cared for and die at home?
Lord McNally
My Lords, as the noble Baroness will be aware, the coroners’ service is under local jurisdiction and the protocol established in Manchester is something that has been decided between the coroner’s office and the police in Manchester. It does give us concern and the department intends to issue guidance under its new powers which we hope will smooth out some of the variants in how coroners apply their powers. This is one of those that will be looked at.
Lord Bach
The Minister will know that the director of the Royal British Legion, no less, has said that the Government’s decision to scrap the new post of chief coroner is a deep betrayal of bereaved service families. Does he agree that during the passage of the Coroners and Justice Bill all sides of this House were as one in believing that not only was the reform of the coronial system an urgent necessity but also that the establishment of a chief coroner, along side a chief medical officer, with powers to set national standards, to lead, and to hear the new system of appeals, was at the heart of the reforms? Why have the Government taken the absurd and counterproductive step which, in the words of the co-director of INQUEST, renders the new model “completely hollow” before it has even started, and a step that has, moreover, managed so deeply to upset bereaved service families and the Royal British Legion?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am sorry that the Royal British Legion has made that judgment. The decision not to go ahead with the chief coroner was made, as the noble Lord knows, mainly on financial grounds. The setting up of the post would have been expensive. The alternative that was put forward in my Written Statement is that we are going to take much of what was in the legislation in-house in the Ministry of Justice and do the tasks ourselves. I am well aware that in so doing we set ourselves a pretty important task because, as the noble Lord rightly said, when the Coroners and Justice Bill was going through this House all sides wanted to see an improvement in consistency in the coroners’ service. That is what we intend to do in-house and we will be judged on our performance.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Can the Minister tell me how lawyer coroners—I understand that most will be legally qualified but they will no longer be obliged to be medically qualified—will obtain assurance of the standards of the post-mortems that they commission?
Lord McNally
I understand that my noble friend in the Department of Health will be establishing the post of medical examiner. Medical examiners will be able to give this advice.
Lord Walton of Detchant
Does the Minister accept that very rarely at the time of a coroner’s post-mortem is permission sought for the retention of tissue samples and slides after the post-mortem? Such archive material is invaluable for research into human genetics and into the management of human disease. Will the Minister ensure that coroners are advised to seek such permission when coroners’ post-mortems are undertaken or at least consider amending the Human Tissue Act to make such retention of material obligatory?
Lord McNally
My Lords, as I said in my initial reply, my department is looking at comprehensive guidance to coroners. I note what the noble Lord has suggested, and I will make sure that that is considered as part of the guidance.
Lord Christopher
My Lords, will this review include some clarification on what is admissible as evidence in an inquest? I am aware of a very unfortunate case of a death where there had been a settlement and admission of responsibility, but the coroner would not allow evidence to that effect to be given.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I note what the noble Lord asks. I think I will have to take legal advice about how we should respond to that matter. I know that in looking at this review and at our powers, we are in contact with the Lord Chief Justice.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I declare an interest as having been, a long time past, a coroner’s officer and having occasionally deputised for a coroner. I ask the Government to be very careful not to trench upon the independence of coroners who are judicial officers. All the advice and the rest of it that is being recommended should have respect for that crucial independence.
Lord McNally
I do not think there is any question of us trampling on the independence of coroners. What slightly surprised me when coming to this and looking at the file is the wide variation in the behaviour of coroners, which is not likely to produce public confidence. That was one of the reasons why the idea of a chief coroner was put forward. As I explained at the beginning of this exchange, when we looked at it, it proved to be too expensive, but the bulk of the suggestions and of the content of that Act will now be brought in-house. Judge us by what we do. We will follow the guidance of the Act in bringing consistency to the coroner system, but not on the basis of a rather expensive, at this stage in our careers, chief coroner.
Elections: Fraud
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government which are the “specific complaints” about electoral fraud referred to by the Deputy Leader of the House on 5 October (HL Deb, col. 10).
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, my reference to “specific complaints” referred to paragraph 2.58 of the Electoral Commission’s report on the administration of the 2010 UK general election, which says:
“Because many of the cases of alleged malpractice are still under active investigation by police forces, it is not possible at this time to give any definitive figures for the number of cases which relate to the 2010 UK general election”.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. In essence, the noble Lord has confirmed that these cases have now been referred to the police, which is absolutely the correct procedure. However, in October, it was stated in the BBC “Newsnight” programme that two of the constituencies concerned were in Halifax and Oldham. I understand that the police are now quite properly involved, but can the noble Lord confirm the BBC’s claim? Many people are in a state of perplexity and extremely worried because they do not know what the situation is.
Lord McNally
I would not want to verify or otherwise many of the claims that are made by “Newsnight”. I can say that the police are investigating and that, as the noble Baroness rightly says, the Electoral Commission will report in January. We have to be patient. It may be difficult for the individuals concerned in the constituencies where complaints have been made, but the due process has to be gone through and we just have to be patient.
Lord Rennard
My Lords, does the Minister agree that as only around one in 20 of the crimes committed in this country is thought to be reported to the police, there is probably far greater prevalence of electoral fraud than we are generally aware of? Does he further agree that if many more people were aware of how easy it is to commit fraud under the present system, it would be even more prevalent? Could he indicate what steps the Government may be taking with the parties and the Electoral Commission to reduce the possibility of such fraud?
Lord McNally
I am not sure that I agree entirely with my noble friend. Most of the inquiries about the conduct of our elections show a good performance in complying with the law. Many colleagues in this House must feel, as I do, that we went through most of the 20th century with the integrity of our voting system unquestioned. We were very confident about it. It is only in the past 10, or perhaps 20, years that we have become concerned about it. We are bringing in various measures to make it more difficult to perpetrate fraud in our elections, as did the previous Government. We have made it clear that, whatever the party, anybody who commits fraud will be prosecuted and may well face jail for that fraud.
Lord Touhig
In answer to my noble friend Lady Royall on 5 October, the Minister said:
“The Government do not have information and neither is this the Government’s direct responsibility in these matters”.
Then, in answer to my noble friend Lord Hughes, he said:
“As far as I understand it, specific complaints have been made in a range of constituencies and are being investigated”.—[Official Report, 5/10/10; col. 10.]
At that time, did the Government have information—yes or no? I refer the noble Lord to the Ministerial Code. Part 1.2(d) says:
“Ministers should be as open as possible with Parliament and the public, refusing to provide information only when disclosure would not be in the public interest”.
Why is it not in the public interest to tell Parliament if there is an investigation into fraud?
Lord McNally
I think that is straining things a little. What I said was that I am not directly involved: the police and the Electoral Commission are involved. There would be a lot more questions from that side of the House, and probably from this side too, if Ministers were directly involved in investigating electoral fraud.
Noble Lords: Oh!
Lord McNally
It is a matter for the Electoral Commission; it is going to produce a report in January, and my recommendation, as an elector and a citizen—never mind being a Minister—is that all three political parties study that report very carefully and then see if we can come together to try to tighten it up still further. Nothing I said either the last time or today suggests any impropriety as far as I am concerned. I am leaving it to the Electoral Commission, the police and the returning officers in the constituencies concerned, which is exactly as it should be.
Lord Naseby
Is my noble friend aware that he is absolutely right in the position he takes—not least as someone who has sat through a fair number of recounts? However, is he not also correct in saying that, when the police have investigated, they do report? We have the case of Bristol East, where the newly elected Labour Member has been cautioned by the police for the use she made of—it is reported— the postal votes on her Twitter, and, rightly, that is fraud under Section 63 of the Elections Act 1983.
Lord McNally
I am not going to make comments on individual constituencies at the Dispatch box. I note what my noble friend says.
Baroness Taylor of Bolton
Would the Minister agree that probably everybody in this House would acknowledge that Ministers should not investigate electoral fraud? However, is there not a responsibility on the part of Ministers and, indeed, all of us, to acknowledge that we should not be fanning the flames and making wild accusations as has happened in the past?
Lord McNally
I agree with that, but after a general election, when there are close fights—we have all been through this—comments are made. What is important is that all parties co-operate in ensuring that the machinery we put in place works. Let us see what the Electoral Commission recommends, and then, if further action is needed, further action will be taken.
Lord Wright of Richmond
I note that the Minister referred to himself as an elector. Does the coalition have plans to allow Members of the House of Lords to vote?
Lord McNally
I regularly vote in local elections and I am particularly looking forward to voting in the AV election in May next year.
Lord Teverson
Is not the real electoral fraud that a party that gets 23 per cent of the vote gets only 8 per cent of the Members of Parliament?
Lord McNally
I think that is undeniable, and I noticed that there were nods from all around the House in response to my noble friend.
Prisons: Population
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the Ministry of Justice will publish a Green Paper later this year setting out plans to reform sentencing and rehabilitate offenders more effectively. We hope and intend that a range of proposals in that document will be discussed which, if implemented, would have an impact on overall prison numbers.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the Justice Secretary’s statement that he intends to reduce the size of the prison population was most welcome. Does the Minister agree, though, that reducing the prison population will not necessarily save money? There are groups in prison, such as the mentally ill and drug addicts, who need treatment to get them to mend their ways rather than to be incarcerated.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, and that is why in part of the sentencing review we intend to look at the treatment of the mentally ill, in co-operation with the Department of Health, in terms of early identification of mental illness and making sure that people are diverted from the prison system into proper mental health treatment. The review will also look at drug rehabilitation. Part of the reassessment will be to see if we can provide systems of treatment which help to end drug dependency which, as the noble Lord will know, has been one of the factors in the revolving door of crime.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, the recommendation of the Corston report in 2007 was that female prisons should be replaced by,
“suitable, geographically dispersed, small, multi-functional custodial centres”.
That recommendation was rejected by the previous Government in August 2008. Will the Green Paper put that forward again for consideration?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, and the contribution she made to the discussion on women in prison. Four thousand women in custody is far, far too many, and we are developing a strategy which will ensure that the women’s estate has custodial and community settings, is fit for purpose and meets the needs of women offenders. However, I have to be frank with my noble friend that at this point in time we face the same problem as the previous Administration in providing the kind of small multifunctional custodial centres which the noble Baroness recommended.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, I invite the Minister to give most urgent consideration to setting up a searching and comprehensive review of two questions: first, we incarcerate more people per 100,000 than any other country in western Europe and, secondly, our prison population has more than doubled over the past 25 years. Will he give an undertaking that future policy will be built upon a solid foundation, rather than upon the shifting sands of economic crises?
Lord McNally
My Lords, that is exactly the aim of the Green Paper that we hope to publish before the end of the year, in trying to get a sensible and sane discussion about prison numbers. It would be greatly helped if, every time there is an attempt at a rational debate of these issues, our national media did not turn it into a hysterical numbers game and suggest irresponsibility on the part of whichever Government are in power. I hope that when our Green Paper is published this House will play its usual constructive role in discussing these issues.
The Lord Bishop of Wakefield
My Lords, following the Minister’s comment about mental health cases and the desire to shift those from prison and custodial sentences, can we look forward to early proposals from the offender health division to implement last year’s recommendations by the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, in his excellent review of this issue?
Lord McNally
My Lords, yes indeed. The Ministry of Justice is working with the Department of Health and the Home Office to ensure that front-line criminal justice and health agencies focus on identifying those people with mental health problems at an early stage of the criminal justice pathway, and is exploring ways of diverting into health and social services those for whom this would be the better option.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, the Minister will know that at long last the Youth Justice Board has had some success in reducing the very large number of young people whom we incarcerate in this country. Given the Government’s announcement that they will disband the Youth justice Board, who now will be responsible for continuing this very welcome downward trend in the number of young people in prison in this country?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I pay tribute to the work of the Youth Justice Board. As the noble Baroness said, during its time it has overseen a very welcome drop in youth offending. It is not disappearing: its work will be reabsorbed into a unit within the Ministry of Justice.
Lord Bach
My Lords, of course it is common sense that if reoffending rates fall, fewer people will go to prison. However, how are the Government planning to get reoffending down when the comprehensive spending review plans to cut 10,000 jobs from the Prison Service and the National Probation Service? Does the Minister understand—I am sure that he does—that it is utterly and completely unrealistic to argue for cutting the number of prison inmates by 3,000 while at the same time decimating the National Probation Service?
Lord McNally
My Lords, first, the job figures cover a five-year period, and in some cases the reductions will be absorbed by natural wastage. Some of the excessive language that has just been used ignores the fact that the Administration will genuinely look at alternatives to prison. What has struck me in the very short time that I have been in this job has been seeing examples—often very small examples—of interventions with prisoners that have an extraordinary impact on reoffending. There was an example on “Today” last week of a charity finding accommodation for prisoners before they were released. Among the prisoners with whom it was working there was a 20 per cent reoffending rate rather than the 80 per cent in other categories. I believe that there are alternatives and I hope that the Green Paper will give scope for an intelligent and non-hysterical debate about these factors.
Public Expenditure: Members of Parliament
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Lord Grocott
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what would be the net cost implications for public expenditure of reducing the number of MPs to 600 and introducing 300 directly elected Members into the House of Lords.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, it is difficult to attribute the exact savings from having 50 fewer MPs.
Lord McNally
Our best estimate is £12.2 million annually, subject to decisions made by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. Estimates on Lords costs will be given when the House of Lords reform Bill is published.
Lord Grocott
I am at least grateful to the Minister for enabling me to win my bet, which was that he would not answer the Question. I suggest that he looks at it like this. Will he confirm that on 5 July, his leader, the Deputy Prime Minister, said that the savings from reducing the number of MPs by 50 would be £12 million a year? Introducing 300 directly elected Members of the House of Lords, who of course would have much bigger constituencies, must therefore be at least six times that, at £72 million. Maybe the Minister’s departmental computer could confirm that that would mean a net cost of £60 million. At a time when the Government are looking for any possible cuts in public expenditure that they can find, and given that none of these reforms have any support among anyone out in the real world, why does the Minister not do the common-sense thing, save the money and scrap the lot?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am rather hurt by the assertion that I did not answer the Question. The noble Lord has confirmed what my noble friend said in another place; that the cost for 50 MPs would be about £12 million. That is half the Question answered; that is five out of 10—a lot better than I used to do in some exams. On the second half of the Question, where the noble Lord is giving numbers for a reformed House of Lords and calculating on his own bases, we will have to wait for the Bill. He and I will then make calculations and be able to assess the cost. I am not in a position to answer both halves of the Question at this moment.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, does my noble friend recall that the previous Administration published a White Paper that had a section on costs for the House of Lords? The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, was a distinguished member of that Administration. Does my noble friend also recall that that Administration then had no economies to suggest for the House of Commons, and does he agree that the coalition is at least making a bid to find a reasonable equation?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I must say that the quality of the questions coming from the Liberal Democrat Benches today is extremely high. I am grateful for that question. I had forgotten that the previous Labour Government had done some costings; when I leave the Chamber, I will go and look at those costings and send them on to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. That gives me an opportunity to say that the White Paper was partly the work of Mr Jack Straw, who, sadly, has moved from the Joint Committee because he has returned to the Back Benches. The quality of the Bill that is produced for this House in due course will owe much to the work done by Mr Straw, including his calculations on costs.
Lord Boston of Faversham
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the cost of reducing membership of the House of Commons by any number would be worth paying? Does he also agree that the cost of providing 300 directly elected Members of your Lordships’ House would not be worth paying?
Lord McNally
These are judgments that Parliament will make in due course. The argument for reducing to 600 has been well discussed at the other end of the Corridor and has been moving with all due speed. We will shortly have the opportunity to debate these issues ourselves.
Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, does this Question not pre-empt the decision of this House as to whether it will retain an appointed Chamber? Is it really possible to consider this, which is a matter of cost, when retention of the Chamber as constituted is a matter of quality of advice to the nation?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. One of the problems with the persistence of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, in putting these Questions on the Order Paper, is that much of this is idle speculation by him. We will soon have the Bill and then we can have a proper debate.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, would not such a reduction in the number of Members of the House of Commons have larger and dangerous implications for the control of public expenditure? With the payroll vote being a yet larger proportion of its Membership, would not the freedom of the House of Commons to scrutinise the Government’s proposals for public expenditure, and its capacity to hold the Government to account for their performance over public expenditure, be enfeebled even beyond its present inadequacy?
Lord McNally
In responding seriously, I honestly do not think that this is a numbers game. I agree with the noble Lord that, whatever reforms are carried out at this end, the House of Commons should also sharpen up its act in holding the Executive to account.
Charities: War Zones
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Lord James of Blackheath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will clarify the responsibilities of charities under the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 when placing representatives in war zones.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, charities have responsibilities when placing representatives in war zones, but the Act referred to in the Question applies only when the harm that leads to a death occurs in the UK, UK territorial waters, or on a British ship, aircraft, hovercraft or an offshore installation covered by the UK criminal law.
Lord James of Blackheath
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he share my concern that this somewhat difficult Act contains within it a form of Catch-22, whereby any attempt to try to increase accountability might have a knock-on effect on charities to the extent that they cannot afford the risk of sending abroad the people to administer the money that they raise, which would have very serious effects to the detriment of British charitable support? Can we find a way round that problem of increased accountability?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I read the report of the Committee on that Bill of 5 February 2007, when my noble friend raised a similar doubt, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, gave him reassurances on this matter. I do not think that we can go beyond those reassurances, as we do not believe that the Act has the adverse effect on charities that he feared then and evidently still fears.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, although, as he says, the 2007 Act and criminal law do not apply to staff of charities working in war zones abroad, civil law and common law apply and the law of negligence is very much alive to those circumstances? Do the Government offer any advice or assistance to overseas charities having to make very difficult judgments vis-à-vis their staff when they are put into highly vulnerable circumstances?
Lord McNally
Yes, my Lords, we do. The issue is difficult and is a matter of judgment for the charities and for the individuals concerned, but we do not say that those very brave individuals should not go. I pay tribute to those who are willing to go into places of danger on behalf of charities. The Department for International Development draws the attention of NGOs to FCO travel advice for the area and the Charity Commission provides guidance to charities working internationally on how to manage the risks to their staff.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
Will the Minister kindly tell the House, since the Act came into operation three and a half years ago, how many prosecutions there have been, how many civil actions have been commenced, and if so with what result?
Lord McNally
I am afraid that I shall have to write to the noble Lord on those questions.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Are most representatives of charities who go into these war zones generally covered by insurance?
Lord McNally
They can be insured, but if they are going into very dangerous places it may be very difficult to get comprehensive insurance, which I suspect is the issue behind that question.
Political Parties, Elections and Referendums (Civil Sanctions) Order 2010
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Lord McNally
That the draft order laid before the House on 8 April be approved.
Relevant Document: First Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, this order, which is to be made under Schedule 19C to the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, as amended by the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009, permits the Electoral Commission to impose civil sanctions for breaches of the party funding regime established by the 2000 Act. The Committee on Standards in Public Life conducted a review of the Electoral Commission in 2007. It found that currently:
“The only sanction that the Electoral Commission has if the parties do not comply with legislation is to name or shame or, if the offence is sufficiently serious, it can refer it to the Crown Prosecution Service for criminal prosecution”.
The committee recommended a new system of penalties to enforce the regulatory framework set out in the 2000 Act. The 2009 Act was intended to tighten the controls on spending by political parties and candidates, and part of that process was to strengthen the regulatory role of the Electoral Commission. As such, that Act gave the Electoral Commission new powers to investigate potential breaches of party funding law itself rather than have to refer most things of any potential seriousness to the police and to apply a range of civil sanctions as an alternative to criminal prosecutions. We are keen to fulfil this commitment, one that was made by the previous Government.
Following Royal Assent to the 2009 Act, the Electoral Commission initiated a consultation on its proposed enforcement policy. The responses to the consultation and the commission’s resulting recommendations were considered by the Government during the development of the order, alongside the valuable technical advice which was received from the Electoral Commission itself. The 2009 Act inserted into the 2000 Act the key principles behind the powers to impose civil sanctions, including the type of civil sanctions that will be available to the commission, broadly how they will operate and the right of notice prior to the imposition of sanctions, and appeal to the county court or sheriff thereafter. The powers closely mirror those set out in the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008, which established a sanctions framework for analogous regulators.
It is important to make it clear that these new powers are intended to supplement, and not to replace, the existing ability of the police to investigate an offence, and the Crown Prosecution Service to bring a criminal prosecution. Part 1 of Schedule 2 to the order specifies those offences that will be capable of attracting either criminal or civil sanctions depending on what the commission, the police and the CPS think is the right approach in each case. An individual cannot be proceeded against for the same wrong by the civil and criminal routes. Part 2 specifies these restrictions and requirements that will be capable of attracting only civil sanctions.
Part 3 ensures the continuation of provisions which are currently set out in Section 147 of the 2000 Act and which will be removed from the Act when the new powers are commenced. These provisions enable the commission to impose a sanction on an organisation for the act of one of its officers for a limited range of transgressions. The list set out in Part 3 reflects the list currently set out in Section 147 of the 2000 Act with the addition of Section 41(1), failure to keep accounts, and Sections 41(4) and (5), failure to maintain accounts for six years.
By contrast, those offences in the 2000 Act which are not included in Schedule 2 to the order will remain subject only to criminal sanctions. Examples of such offences are in Section 61(2), knowingly giving false information to a party treasurer, or withholding information with intent to deceive, as set in Section 148(1), or altering, suppressing, concealing or destroying, or permitting the same, of documents relating to the financial affairs of a supervised organisation or individuals.
Lord Bach
I am very grateful to the House for that acknowledgement. Both as treasurer and chairman I could be affected by the legislation that is now on the statute book.
I congratulate the Electoral Commission on the note it sent to noble Lords on this order, but I invite it to use its considerable powers—and they are considerable, as has been pointed out in the debate—with care, tolerance and humanity, bearing in mind the voluntary nature of so much political activity in this country. We support the order.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I shall reply briefly to this debate. I am sure that we are all impressed by the climb of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, from treasurer to party chairman. Disraeli called that climbing the greasy pole.
I shall also respond briefly to the noble Lord’s point about the Ministry of Justice. Twelve years ago, I served on an inquiry, initiated by this House and chaired by the late Lord Slynn, into whether the ethos of public service was still alive and well in our Civil Service after the changes that had taken place in the 1980s and 1990s. Our report stated that yes, it really was alive and well—people in our public service were motivated by a sense of public duty and public service. Since returning into government five months ago, my experience has been such that I would not change a word of that report. I have been much moved and impressed by the dedication of the public servants with whom I have worked at all levels. I am well aware that percentages are meaningless for the individuals concerned. For them, the unemployment is 100 per cent. Therefore, we will try to manage the changes that we judge to be inevitable with a duty of care to those people and with as much humanity as we possibly can.
I am very familiar with this topic because more than a decade ago I was on the Benches opposite arguing about the Bill and many of the things that the noble Lord, Lord Martin, raised. I remember the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, and myself, as two former party officials, pointing out that the Bill was couched in terms that made the treasurership of a political party sound like one of those golden prizes in politics, whereas the hard truth is that it is usually given to someone who has inadvertently left the room at the wrong time. It was argued at the time that the commission would have all kinds of talents except perhaps the most valuable talent of all—the ability to run elections at the sticky end for the political parties. The most recent appointments to the commission have been an attempt to remedy that, because the nominees have come from the political parties. I hope that that answer meets the point that was raised.
The noble Lord, Lord Martin, and my noble friend Lord Tyler asked whether the heavy hand of sanctions would come down on inexperience or on genuine mistakes. The Electoral Commission, in putting forward how it wants to approach these matters, said:
“We recognise that many of those responsible for complying with the law on party and election finance are volunteers … The new civil sanctions will allow us to use more constructive approaches to secure compliance in cases where the law has been broken. For example, we could issue a statutory notice designed to improve future compliance, rather than just imposing a less flexible penalty such as a fine.”
As the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said, a lot of work was done on this before the general election, and this order reflects that. The thinking behind it is that the Electoral Commission was faced with using either a tap on the wrist or a criminal prosecution. The order gives it a range of measures. What is in the order, and what is in the remarks that I made when I introduced it, is the point that the Electoral Commission is in no doubt that proportionality will be expected of it. With political experience in the commission, I hope that it will be able to use these powers with due proportionality and that there will be no sledgehammer, as the noble Lord, Lord Martin, and my noble friend Lord Tyler feared.
My only other point is in response to my noble friend Lord Tyler, who asked about the funding of political parties. This is a firm commitment in the coalition agreement. It was mentioned in the Queen’s Speech. I am tempted to say that the Government will move directly to the measure as soon as reform of the House of Lords has passed, but that might be seen as not the kind of commitment that the House is looking for. As my noble friend Lord Tyler said, noble Lords on all sides of the House know that in the previous Parliament we came very close to getting agreement on party funding. The coalition Government are committed to try again and we hope, as the Opposition are nodding vigorously, that if we initiate a new attempt to get agreement on party funding, we will succeed this time.
Lord Bach
I absolutely agree with everything that the noble Lord has said, but if he wants to know the reason why the talks on political funding failed—as Christopher Wren said when asked for what his monument would be—he should look around him. It is the people with whom he is in coalition who have prevented it happening.
Lord McNally
I would prefer to leave those matters to the historians. We are looking forward. The Committee on Standards in Public Life is making a report. The report to which my noble friend Lord Tyler referred is on my desk at the moment. I think that we have a really good chance of taking matters forward. As I have said before, all the major parties have at some time or other faced problems, embarrassments and difficulties because of our way of funding political parties. If we really apply ourselves early in this Parliament to the problem, we could and should find a solution.
I commend the order to the House. It will help the party activists. I finish by endorsing the comments made by my noble friend Lord Tyler and the noble Lords, Lord Martin and Lord Bach, who all have campaign medals as party activists. Nothing annoys me more during a general election than knocking on a door only to be told by some proud person that they never vote and that we are all in it for what we can get. We know that our democracy works because of the tens of thousands in every political party who are willing to do those hard, dull jobs such as sticking things through doors and knocking on the doors of perfect strangers to engage them in discussion. They are the people who make our democracy work. I pay tribute to them and hope that this order will make that voluntary work a little easier.
Prisoners: Voting
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Lord Ramsbotham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to comply with the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights on the voting rights of prisoners.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the Government have been actively considering the issue over the summer and this work is continuing.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I understand that responsibility for the issue has now been passed to the Deputy Prime Minister, who announced that action was being taken. When I last asked this question in June, the Minister told the House that we would receive an answer in October. I gather that has now been deferred until December. I dread to think what would happen in this country if anyone who was made the subject of a court order did nothing about it for six years—the time that has passed since this order was made, and it has been five years since the appeal. Can the Minister assure the House that intentions are being carried out to enable those prisoners who will be allowed the vote to vote in the elections next May?
Lord McNally
My Lords, that is a trick question because it assumes that a decision has been made about the vote being granted to prisoners. I have said that the Government have been actively considering the issue over the summer. It is only five months—not five years—since this Government came into office. We are looking at the situation and will make a report to the European Council of Ministers, as we promised over the summer, at its meeting on 30 November.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, is it not the case that there is room for more than one respectable view on this matter? Is it not further the case that, apart from the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and, presumably, the judges of the European court, very few people are in favour of this proposal? Will the Minister be guided accordingly?
Lord McNally
I agree with my noble friend that there are people who believe passionately that the removal of the vote is a proper sanction for someone who has committed a crime that justifies a prison sentence. There are also people—the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is one—who see the granting of the vote to a certain category of prisoner as being a useful way of rehabilitating them into society. Both views are perfectly respectable. The Government are considering both views and will make their decision in due course.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws
It is a question. I remind the Minister of the view taken by David Howarth when he was the Liberal Democrat justice spokesman. He said:
“It is unacceptable for the government to pick and choose which human rights treaty obligations it fulfils just because it feels the issue is unpopular”.
Is this another fault line within the coalition and one of the areas where the Government want to remain silent? It is important that we hear clearly from the Government—and soon—what is intended with regard to an order that was made about the civic rights of prisoners. What does the Minister have to say about whether there is a fault line here?
Lord McNally
I can absolutely assure the noble Baroness that no such fault line exists. As I have explained already, over a period of five months we have been looking at the situation and listening to various points of view. There is a Council of Ministers meeting on 30 November and we will update that council meeting in due course. We have not been unduly laggard in looking at the issue and, as I have said, the work is continuing.
Lord Scott of Foscote
Is the Minister aware that the rulings of the Strasbourg court are not binding on our domestic courts? Section 2(1)(a) of the Act states that Strasbourg court rulings should be taken into account, but an amendment to make them binding was rejected by this House and was never part of the Bill. Is the Minister aware also that the Hirst (No. 2) judgments contained a dissenting opinion from five of the 17 judges, including Judge Costa, and that in the opinion of many, including myself, the dissenting opinions are far more convincing than those of the majority? In these circumstances, does the Minister agree that it is not open to the Strasbourg court to add to the human rights enshrined in the convention in the manner in which it from time to time does, and that, so far as the issues in the present case are concerned, the Government should do no more than simply reaffirm the present position? Does the Minister finally agree—
Lord Scott of Foscote
Does the Minister finally agree that the Government must govern this country according to the laws in force in this country without regard to the occasional extravagances of the Strasbourg court?
Lord McNally
My Lords, one of the values of Questions like that of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is that it provokes interventions such as that. It means that we get, for free, legal opinions that would on normal occasions cost us a fortune.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is an obligation under Article 46 of the convention to abide by the judgment? Is he aware that the British judge, Sir Nicholas Bratza, formed part of the majority? Is he aware also that Ireland, Cyprus and Hong Kong have all managed to introduce postal voting for prisoners without the slightest difficulty? Finally, is he aware that in November and December, the British Government will have to hang their head in shame in the Committee of Ministers when dealing with compliance with other judgments for being in default for more than six years?
Lord McNally
My Lords, slightly more respectfully perhaps, I again make the point that one of the advantages of a Question like this is that it enables us to learn the broad spectrum of opinion and hear details of research, which probably reassures Members over why we are taking such a time carefully to consider this matter before the meeting on 30 November.
Divorce
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for initiating the debate. The fact that she has done so is fully justified by the quality of the contributions. I start at the end, as it were, by responding to the noble Lord, Lord Bach. I am well aware of his work and concern in this area. I do not think that there is any break in the approach as between the two Governments. We shall build on what the noble Lord did under the previous Government. He has already reflected on there being no silver bullets or quick-fix solutions to this matter and said that it has to be thought through, listening carefully to experience and advice on all sides. As he rightly said, we are dealing with extremely complex financial and emotional issues.
As the noble Lord knows, the justice review to which he referred is conducted by an independent panel chaired by David Norgrove. It will publish an interim report in the spring of 2011, when we will get the first impact of its thinking. The Government will await the outcome of the family justice review before making any firm decisions on comprehensive divorce law reform. However, dissatisfaction and complaints have emerged from all sides in this debate, from those who have gone through divorce and from divorce practitioners. I was not shocked by the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, as I had seen the letter that she had sent to colleagues, in which she outlined her approach to these matters. I certainly do not consider her views idiosyncratic. I would be a brave man to do so in any circumstances, but particularly so as regards the field we are discussing.
As the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said, we live in an age when there are many divorces. The timely intervention of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn and the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, were right. In all but a few cases, we enter marriage in the belief that it is for life. When it sometimes does not end up like that, it is very traumatic. I am not sure that we are all like the girls in a Manchester school who, when asked in a recent television survey, said that their ambition in life was to marry a footballer as a way to fame and fortune. The implication was that a marriage in those circumstances would be fairly short. However, the right reverend Prelate’s speech resonated for most people in terms of a moral approach to marriage—a determination to try and make it work. The law’s job when breakdown occurs is to try and help as much as it can in ensuring a civilised break.
I listened to the noble Baronesses, Lady Deech and Lady Meacher, and I agree that the independence of women has recently increased enormously. However, I am still not sure that the balance in divorce cases is quite as equal as they imply. As the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, implied, it can often be unequally weighted against the woman in terms of being able to maintain standards or build a career after divorce. As we know too well from some of our crime statistics, far too many women in this country have to manage dysfunctional families long after the male has gone.
Baroness Meacher
My Lords, I am responding to the noble Lord’s indication that we were implying somehow that the positions of men and women are equal. My concern—and perhaps that of my noble friend Lady Deech, though I should not speak for her—is simply that things have changed a great deal in the past 40 years, and the law was written at a time when the position of women was very different from what it is today. Situations vary. There are occasions when the woman is the all-powerful and rich earner, and others when it is the man. All situations have to be judged on their merits. I did not want the Minister to take that as a suggestion of equality.
Lord McNally
I fully understand and accept that. Things have changed a great deal in the past 40 years, but a lot of things have stayed the same. We have to take both realities into account. In terms of divorce, the lower down the social scale—if that is the right description—the less things have changed. I can quite imagine that the qualified professional woman is able to re-establish herself very quickly. The woman who has been holding a family together but is very much dependent on a male breadwinner is in a very much different situation. I just make the point that when we are looking at reform, we have to ensure, as our system does, that judges consider three principles—need, compensation and sharing, shaped by the overarching requirement for fairness. Each party is entitled to an equal share of the assets of the partnership unless there is good reason to the contrary, but the yardstick of equality is to be used as an aid, not as a rule. Any decision will be based on individual circumstances and needs. The court does not impose a one-size-fits-all solution. Consideration will be given to the potential earning capacity of both parties. Spousal maintenance orders can be conditional and time-limited, ending in any case if the recipient marries again. One-third of divorced couples make an application for ancillary relief, but a large majority of them seek simply a consent order.
Mention was made by, among others, the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, of prenups. We await with interest Wednesday’s ruling of the Supreme Court in Granatino v Radmacher. At present, the courts can take into account prenuptial agreements as part of the balancing exercise that judges must undertake in ancillary relief proceedings under Section 25 of the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973. The judges can still apply discretion—
Lord Davies of Stamford
I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. He has read out a list of the various arguments and considerations that the courts, under the Matrimonial Causes Act, can take into account, including—to the extent to which they may wish to do so—the existence of a prenuptial agreement. Would he not agree that the problem is that because there is such a range of criteria, principles and precedents, it is impossible in any one case to give professional advice or predict what the likely outcome, or weighting between those considerations, will be? Would he not agree that a law that is not clear is a bad law?
Lord McNally
Certainly, a law that is not clear is a bad law. That is why we will consider carefully the outcome of the Supreme Court decision, and then the recommendations of the Law Commission, which will look at reforming the law. I hope that we will be able to do that with some urgency.
Another issue raised was that of “the divorce capital of the world”. The term has gained traction mainly because of some high-profile cases with large sums involved. However, I noted a comment by Lord Justice Thorpe, who said:
“There are only 17 judges of the family division”—
of the High Court—
“whose primary responsibility is to justice domestically. There they operate under great pressure of work. I question whether there should not be a more stringent allocation of judicial time to cases such as this where the parties have slender connection with our jurisdiction”.
As I said, there has been criticism of the system by the judiciary as well as by those who have to go through it.
Another point made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Deech, Lady Meacher, and Lady Murphy, concerned the issue of mediation. My colleague in the other place, Jonathan Djanogly, said the other day:
“Too often people in family breakdown situations use court as the first answer when they shouldn't. Often it's dealing with contact with children or intimate personal relationships that really shouldn't be going before the courts”.
The Government's view, which is shared by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, is that there is a prospect of putting forward mediation as an alternative to expensive and emotionally charged court proceedings. It is an interesting fact that about 70 per cent of publicly funded cases in which mediation is attempted end up with a successful outcome reached away from the courts, and 60 per cent of publicly funded parties who learn about mediation end up with a successful outcome reached away from the courts. The figures for self-funding parties are similar if not higher. In looking at reform, the Government and many outside experts believe that we should publicise mediation and encourage it to be used much more than it is at the moment.
The contributions from all sides have indicated that our law is in need of examination. That examination is under way: the Supreme Court is considering prenups, while the study group and the Law Commission are also looking at the issue. We hope that, in 2011, those findings and studies will come together, which may be an opportune time to look at a range of reforms to our divorce law, so that it meets real needs and many of the criticisms that have been voiced today.
Again, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for raising this issue. I cannot give a snap answer to the question that she has raised in this short debate, but I hope that I have given a sense that we are continuing the initiatives of the previous Administration with a sense of urgency and that we shall look at the matter when the various studies come to fruition.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
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Lord McAvoy
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what they consider would constitute a “significant change” to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill such as would, according to the oral evidence given by the Electoral Commission to the House of Commons Political and Constitutional Reform Committee on 14 September, affect the referendum date if made after 5 November.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Attlee for warming up the House. The rules for the conduct of the referendum are very closely based on those for parliamentary general elections. We therefore consider it unlikely that significant issues will arise during the passage of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer and I promise that I will not mention Mr Mark Harper. But the Minister will be aware that the Electoral Commission has to have that legislation by 5 November, six months before polling day. Does that not mean that this House is being held to ransom by restricting our capacity to revise and amend the Bill, thereby placing limits on the constitutional role of this House?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I have no objection to the noble Lord mentioning Mr Mark Harper, whose profile seems to be increasing by the hour. In fact, he sent me a message about his triumph only last night from the other place where the Bill cleared various hurdles with very comfortable majorities. It is only a week or so since the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, was telling me that this House would not have proper time to debate the Bill. Let us see. The Bill seems to be making good progress in the other place and when it comes here, as always, the Government will listen carefully to the views of this House.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that the significant change to which this Question relates can be relevant only in terms of Part 1 of the Bill, which, as my noble friend has already said, made considerable progress in the other place yesterday? In those circumstances, will he take this opportunity to assure the House that if there is an importation of Commons filibustering tactics on the Bill this would not be encouraged?
Lord McNally
My Lords, personally, I would think nothing so unworthy of the Members of this House. This Bill deals with matters mainly to do with the House of Commons. When it comes here, this House will treat it with the respect due to such a Bill, but will give it the scrutiny that will help the Government in making it a good Bill to take to Royal Assent.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, it is such good news to hear about Mr Mark Harper doing well in the House of Commons. In relation to this Bill, regulations are being passed before the Bill has even had its Second Reading in this House. In addition, the referendum will take place on a day that all the evidence to the Select Committee on the Constitution in this House said would be a day on which the referendum would get swamped by the Scottish election general, the Welsh general election and the local elections. Will the Minister explain what the hurry is? Why can the referendum not take place within 12 months from May?
Lord McNally
First, I welcome the noble, right honourable, learned and everything else Lord back to the Front Bench. It is said that they never come back, but there he is. A lot of scaremongering and false arguments are being put forward. Various bodies are suddenly elevated in their opinion. The Electoral Commission has said that it is possible to successfully deliver these different polls on 5 May. I suggest that, instead of trying to imply that the process is somehow flawed, we should watch its steady progress where we will deliver a very thorough examination at this end. I am sure that we will have an excellent Second Reading debate and a good Committee stage, and the Bill will be all the better for the deliberations of the House of Lords.
Lord Grocott
Does the Minister remember the numerous occasions when he was sitting down there on which he complained about Bills being rushed through the House of Commons without proper scrutiny and subject to draconian timetabling rules? This Bill currently going through the House of Commons was described, I should remind him, by the Leader of his own party as being part of the most significant parliamentary reform since the Reform Act 1832. It is being rushed through in four weeks. Has the transformation in the Minister’s personality between when he was sitting here and now that he is sitting there reached a position whereby he thinks that four weeks in the House of Commons to consider a major constitutional Bill that has had no pre-legislative scrutiny is sufficient?
Lord McNally
We all go through transformations. Here is a Question put down by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, two of the most—let me put this at its most polite—efficient government business managers in either House. If anyone doubts that, there are probably Members on that Bench who have the scars that show the persuasive talents of both noble Lords. The fact is that all oppositions complain that Bills are being railroaded and stampeded—
Lord McNally
Yes. Instead of all this indignation, why not wait for Second Reading, when noble Lords can make their speeches? As I have said, Mr Mark Harper is taking personal responsibility for this Bill in the other place and is making excellent progress. If I can emulate Mr Harper’s success, I will be well pleased.