Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, do the Government expect more or fewer people to be arraigned before the courts for injunctions under this new system, compared with people given ASBOs? Have they made an assessment of that? This is important because, we hope, the number of people who are given the new injunctions or who at the moment are given ASBOs, are a minority—quite a small one—of people who cause some kind of low-level anti-social behaviour in the sort of communities that the noble and learned Lord has been talking about.

Do the Government have an assessment of how the new system will affect the numbers who get to the end of the road and have one of these badges—if that is what they are—put upon them? Secondly—I thought about this while listening to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey—the fundamental thing is: what level of resources are on the ground to deal with these problems and to prevent people getting either the new injunctions or ASBOs? The harsh reality is that in many parts of the country at the moment, that resource is going down.

In my area, what people might think of as a crime and disorder partnership—we call it a community safety partnership—has been extremely successful in the towns and wards of the borough. One meeting that I try to go to each month as a ward councillor is called a PACT meeting—police and communities together. It is a group of residents who meet police and councillors in the ward each month to talk about these problems: local crime and particularly disorder and anti-social behaviour. It works. Sometimes, a handful of people turn up. Then, when something erupts in some of the streets, a lot of people turn up and it provides a focus for dealing with these problems. However, it requires the local police to have the time and resources to take part in such activity. It also requires the local authority’s anti-social behaviour staff to be there and to be prepared to get involved at the case, area and street levels. If it is in an area of social housing, it involves the social housing providers as well. Other people get involved as well.

In our part of the world, that system is being slowly withdrawn for purely financial reasons, as the police cannot afford to devote the resources to it that they have done. If the police are given a choice between relatively high-level and low-level crime, they will put more resources into high-level crime. They might also be given a choice between low-level crime and local disorder or the preventative work where the local neighbourhood teams go round to talk to people, getting to know the patch and its lads and lasses who are hanging around on the streets and might get into bother. The police might find diversionary activities for them, if they have the resources. If that is going on, the system will work, but once that is withdrawn, then all the IPNAs, ASBOs and anything else in the world will not solve the problem. The numbers will increase, because the numbers who get to that level will increase, but the problems on the ground will get worse.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to make one brief point which follows on from that made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. At Second Reading, the Minister made a lot of the breach rates for ASBOs; he said that they were about 60%. The point that I made in my Second Reading speech was that, in my experience as a sitting magistrate, breach rates have declined over the past few years as ASBOs have been more appropriately introduced. I have checked my recollection with my colleagues and I think that they would agree with my comments. Why does the Minister think that breach rates will decline when he is proposing through IPNAs to reduce the burden of proof to a balance of probabilities, and to address nuisance and annoyance rather than “harassment, alarm and distress”? Those two changes are very likely to lead to an increase in the number of breaches, which seemed to be a fundamental point in his seeking to replace ASBOs. I know that later in this Committee there will be a proposal to run the two systems in parallel, which seems a sensible way forward while the IPNA is bedded in.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Lords Chamber

I end by asking the Minister to meet representatives of the main cities and Westminster to go through the new arrangements and either satisfy them that they will be just as good as the existing arrangements or, if he finds that they too argue that in practice, particularly because of this “double doing” stage, they are unlikely to be very effective in dealing with the problem of persistent begging, undertake that the Government will come back with their own proposals to deal with this issue.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Flight. I remind the Committee that I sit as a magistrate in central London, and in my time I have certainly given many ASBOs for persistent and aggressive begging. When I sit, it is relatively commonplace to have an ASBO application from Westminster City Council, and it is something that magistrates are experienced at dealing with. As I said at Second Reading, in my experience, magistrates are more sceptical about granting ASBOs than they were when they were first introduced, and certainly not all ASBOs that are applied for are given.

The noble Lord, Lord Flight, has set out the case very well. I have been lobbied by Westminster City Council and the central point is that, if the existing mechanisms within local authorities are used to dealing with a particular administrative structure, there will inevitably be a cost if one changes that structure. Therefore, I think that it is incumbent on the Minister to explain why he thinks that the new measures he proposes to introduce will work more effectively and potentially reduce those costs. As I said, certainly from the point of view of magistrates administering this, it is a relatively well oiled machine, and we take a sceptical view when we put them in place in the first instance.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord knows that I have concerns about this amendment. I hear what he says about other cities. I have obviously not been able to undertake a scientific assessment but there seems to be quite a variation in views—in London, at any rate—about whether this is the right way to go about the matter.

The language in the amendment seems to be very general;

“intentional or deliberate anti-social behaviour”,

could mean pretty much anything, as we heard earlier. I would have thought almost all anti-social behaviour could potentially be persistent; most conduct would be potentially persistent, but that is not really my concern. The begging that we have heard about troubles me a lot for a variety of reasons; one of them is the criminal gangs behind the beggars. I am not immediately convinced that this measure, dealing with those who are forced into the activity, will actually solve the problem or deter the activity. I am also concerned—though I accept this might be the position with the current arrangements—about the revolving door of arrests. Some are in the cells overnight and then they are out again.

There is other legislation as well; I am sorry that the Minister has apparently not responded at length. I had understood that quite a long letter giving the Government’s views had gone out. That is a matter for my noble friend. I have not seen the letter; I just heard that there was one. It dealt with the other legislation, which might be quite old. That does not mean to say that it is necessarily bad.

I went to the noble Lord’s briefing with Westminster City Council. I heard Councillor Aiken’s views very powerfully expressed. I did not gain the impression that everything was okay now, so I was a bit confused as to the argument against scrapping the current system. I may have been wrong, but I picked up the feeling that there were problems now.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak mainly to Parts 1 to 6 of the Bill. I remind the House that I sit as a magistrate in central London, although I am speaking in a personal capacity.

The Government are essentially proposing to replace ASBOs with two orders: the IPNA—the injunction to prevent nuisance and annoyance—and the crime prevention order. As we have heard, the IPNA is a civil injunction that replaces a range of current orders and there is a maximum penalty for breach of two years’ custody. The crime prevention order, which will be available on conviction through the criminal courts, has a maximum penalty of five years’ custody on breach.

The Government’s objective is to reduce the number of civil orders available, and to reduce the perceived bureaucracy of the current system. The flaw in the Government’s approach is to have fewer orders covering a wider definition of nuisance and annoyance, and with fewer legal safeguards, in a bid to reduce bureaucracy. The point is forcefully made by the Home Affairs Committee in its February 2013 report on the Bill, which said:

“Each time successive Governments have amended the ASB regime, the definition of anti-social behaviour has grown wider, the standard of proof has fallen lower and the punishment for breach has toughened”.

Annoyance and nuisance in local communities are indeed a blight on people’s lives. I look forward to the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, this evening because I am sure he knows better than many about the blight of annoyance and nuisance. I do not mean the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, but the noble Lord, Lord Paddick—although the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, knows about it as well.

Changing the names of orders and tinkering with the definitions may make some procedures simpler. However, changing procedures always leads to agencies having to find new ways to process things and that can be a significant problem. What really matters is that victims have the confidence in the procedures and sentences given, and offenders are deterred from repeat offending.

I read over the Home Office’s White Paper Putting Victims First and I agree with the central two observations: that anti-social behaviour remains stubbornly high, and that victims’ needs are not addressed quickly enough. However, it remains true that there are many thousands of victims who do not report low-level crimes to the police because they have little confidence that they will receive a proper response. My own view on this is that all victims, witnesses and defendants should be able to log on to a website to see the progress of their cases, the requirements of particular sentences and how these requirements may change as the sentence progresses.

I have some personal experience of administering ASBOs and it has certainly been my experience that they have been more appropriately sentenced in recent years. When I first started as a magistrate about eight years ago, it was quite common to have breaches of ASBOs where you could genuinely say that the offender was set up to fail. In my experience, that is less common these days.

The introduction of the proposed changes in the Bill have to be seen in a wider context, and that wider context is the explosion of out-of-court settlements that we have seen over the past 10 years. At present, nearly 50% of all recorded violent offenders receive a caution. I acknowledge that Chris Grayling has made an announcement on this, and indictable-only offences will not be able to be cautioned, and that is a step in the right direction. Nevertheless, that is a huge figure for the number of people receiving cautions for violent offences.

The thing that I believe most profoundly is that there needs to be proper scrutiny of the cautions that are applied. I understand that the appropriate legislation is in place for scrutinising police cautions, but in my experience, this is simply not happening; it is simply not happening here in London. I argue that the proper scrutiny of cautions, so that they are not applied inappropriately, would do more to enhance victims’ confidence in the criminal justice system than changing the names and definitions of particular orders. I believe that is of profound importance.

I, like others, have received the Liberty briefing. Liberty believes that the overuse of ASBOs and similar orders,

“dangerously blur the distinction between serious criminal activity and nuisance, create personalised penal codes that set the young, vulnerable or mentally ill up to fail”,

and can have the effect,

“of fast-tracking individuals into the criminal justice system rather than diverting them away”.

I take the point made in the Liberty briefing, but we have seen exactly the opposite effect, particularly in our youth courts, where we have seen a massive reduction in the number of youths who come to court. Very often, when they come to court, they are up in front of the youth court on very serious charges and have a long and established history of pre-court interventions that have not worked. So there is another side to the story of fast-tracking people into the criminal justice system. Sometimes the criminal justice system does not pick up people appropriately early enough.

I am not saying that Liberty’s point is wrong and that I am particularly right about when people go into the criminal justice system, but I am saying that public confidence is key to the whole administrative process. I believe that poor administration of cases does more to undermine people’s faith in the criminal justice system than any other matter.

I shall speak briefly about three specific aspects of the Bill. The first is Clause 86(5) and covers the point the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, made about the recovery of possession of dwelling houses. I live in the London Borough of Wandsworth. I contacted a local councillor, Tony Belton, about what happened after the riots because Wandsworth was well publicised for trying to evict council tenants where youths under 18 had taken part in the riots. What actually happened is that nobody got evicted in that situation. The council, which is a Tory council, did not pursue the evictions. The only people who were evicted were single men who were sent to prison for long periods of time. So I ask the Minister: what is the problem? That seems to me to be a reasonable outcome. The council did not even pursue the evictions that were so well publicised.

The second point I want to make is about theft from shops where the value is less than £200. There are other pre-court interventions which can be administered. First, there is a penalty notice for disorder where you can be fined £80, and the next is a caution, which requires an admission of guilt, but you do not have to go to court, so it could be on the third or more offence of shoplifting that you get into court. That seems to trivialise the offence. In addition, many shoplifters have drug, alcohol and homelessness problems, and when they come to court they can be picked up and suitable sentences applied.

My third and final point is a very specific point about the victim surcharge for youth offenders. At the moment, magistrates and judges are obliged to put in place the victim surcharge. I have several times had cases where a youth has assaulted their parent or guardian, and because of this order, the court has been obliged to make the parent or guardian pay the victim surcharge when they were the one who was assaulted. It is absolutely ridiculous, but the court has no discretion in the matter.

On the Labour Lords blog today, my noble friend Lady Smith described this Bill as a “Sunday afternoon drive” with,

“many twists and turns and the inevitable dead end”.

I would liken it more to a drive around southern England yesterday afternoon, after the storm had ravaged the countryside. Yes, there are twists and turns and dead ends, but the road map is not very helpful and the Government do not know where they are going.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 28th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede]

My Lords, I will speak briefly on Parts 2 and 3 of the Bill. I start by acknowledging that it is not particularly party politically sensitive but is largely about the administration of justice, and I will address the matters in that spirit and in clause order.

Clause 17 proposes a single family court with a single point of entry. As far as I am aware, the proposal has been generally welcomed. I have the privilege of having just been appointed to sit on the Family Proceedings Court. As a new appointee to this jurisdiction, I will be very interested to see how it progresses. Colleagues generally welcome the change, although, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, lay magistrates are looking for reassurance that their role in the Family Proceedings Court, which is vital, will be protected. They have expressed this concern.

Clause 18 concerns the diversity of the judicial appointments process. As far as I am aware, the magistracy as a group is more diverse than more senior members of the judiciary. Nevertheless, it may be worth exploring whether some ideas about senior members might appropriately be applied to the appointment of magistrates as well.

Clause 20 concerns the payment of court fines. As the noble Lord, Lord Henley, said in his introduction, some two-thirds of all sentences are fines. I will make many of the same points as the noble Lord, Lord Touhig. Clause 20 concerns the role and powers of fines officers. The Bill allows for the recovery of charges incurred in the recovery of fines where offenders have defaulted on their payments. Fines officers are to be treated as not making judicial decisions, which will enable their functions to be carried out by contracted-out staff. While I am not against the proposal, it fails to address a shortcoming in the current system; sentencers, namely magistrates and judges, often do not know the level of unpaid fines when they impose new fines on an offender. Therefore, they can make the situation of unpaid fines worse rather than exploring other sentencing options where possible.

One possible remedy for this is to make it a requirement for sentencers to know the level of unpaid fines before imposing new ones. I canvassed this possibility with magistrate colleagues over the past week or so and there was relatively little enthusiasm, as it would impose a large administrative burden on the existing system. Nevertheless, I put it to the Minister that this administrative change would do more to combat the level of unpaid fines than the proposals that the Government advance in the Bill.

We have heard a lot this evening about Clause 23, which concerns the community and non-custodial sentencing of adults. It acts as a placeholder for the Government to bring forward proposals on community sentences at a later stage. In her intervention, the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, mentioned the White Paper that was published last week. There are two consultations in progress. The first is a Ministry of Justice consultation entitled Punishment and Reform: Effective Community Sentences. The second is the Home Office White Paper on anti-social behaviour orders. My understanding, unlike the noble Baroness’s, is that the amendments that are going to be proposed by the Government are to do with the Ministry of Justice consultation and not the Home Office White Paper. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, is nodding his head.

I have two general points to make about Clause 23. The first is similar to the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, that whatever the proposals are, it is of huge importance that magistrates and the judiciary have confidence in community sentences. This issue has been brought up on previous criminal justice boards. It should be a statutory requirement for probation trusts and magistrates’ Benches to liaise and to be properly informed about the availability of community sentences. I know the Government’s standard response to this point is that nothing prevents that and it is a desirable outcome, but my point is that it is an uneven outcome in different parts of the country if it is not a judicial requirement. This point was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and I strongly support their view that it should be made a statutory requirement for this liaison to happen.

My second point about Clause 23 anticipates the amendments the Government will bring forward on Report. These are likely to include increased options for more sentencing in the community. It is inevitable that some of the options which the probation trusts offer will be more available in big cities than in rural areas or small towns. I readily acknowledge that this is a practical problem, but you could end up with sentencers knowing an offender’s address before they know the details of the sentence being passed. You could have an extreme situation in which a sentencing Bench on the same day will allow one vulnerable offender to escape prison while another offender will be sent to custody purely on the basis of their address. This is a slightly extreme example, but it is entirely possible as there is a lack of consistency across probation trust areas. This is perhaps an inevitable consequence of localism, but it is clearly inequitable and not proper justice. The answer to this conundrum is for proper national guidance to ensure that, broadly speaking, the same options are available to sentencing Benches all over the country.

Finally, I turn to Clause 27 on drug-driving. I know my noble friend Lord Simon is going to say something about this, and I read with interest the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, in the debate on the gracious Speech. I am aware of the complexity of this issue by reading some of Sir Peter North’s report. I have sat on a number of drink-driving appeals over the past few years and I have listened to expert witnesses giving their testimony about the unreliability of the equipment involved in drink-drive tests. It so happens that in an earlier career of mine as a junior technician I dealt with similar equipment, so I know how complex it is. Without wanting to be too prejudicial, I will say that it is very easy for expert witnesses to come up with extremely complex reasons why the equipment is not to be relied on. That will only be much exaggerated when you are dealing with a multitude of drugs rather than just alcohol. It is very important to get this element of the Bill correct, otherwise there will be a lot of opportunities for expert witnesses and lawyers to create mischief in this situation.

I look forward to taking part in debates on this Bill. It is an important Bill and there are many details to address.

Protection of Freedoms Bill

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 12th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. I know that he has waited very patiently all afternoon. It may be of assistance to the House for me to remind noble Lords that, at Bill do now pass, once the Motion has been moved formally, as it just has, it may be opposed and reasoned or delaying amendments to it may be moved. However, in other circumstances it is not normally debated.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede]

My Lords, I wish to raise a new issue, which came to my attention at the end of last week. I was advised by the Public Bill Office that I should take the slightly unusual step of raising this new issue on this Motion. I also informed the Minister’s office that I intended to do this.

It is the intention of the Bill to adopt the Scottish model for protections for the DNA database, and therefore to find an equivalent to the Scottish sheriff courts in England and Wales. As currently worded, the Bill requires the hearings to be before a district judge from the magistrates’ court. This is too restrictive; all that is necessary is for the application to be made to a magistrates’ court. Whether to put the matter before a district judge or a lay bench of magistrates can then be decided locally. This may be a small point but it is one of principle and practicality.

The point of principle is that lay benches have exactly the same powers as district judges. There is only one exception to that, which is in the matter of extradition. Beyond that, it is a point of principle in magistrates’ courts in England and Wales that lay benches have exactly the same powers as district judges.

The point of practicality is that limiting applications to district judges will mean unnecessary inconvenience to citizens. There will be delay and there may be extra costs. The reason for that is that district judges tend to sit in large cities and may be less readily available than lay benches.

I realise that this matter is being raised at a very late stage. I have given the noble Lord notice of it and I look forward to his response.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I shall speak for a moment in the hope that my noble friend Lord Dholakia will get here. I know that he has raised this matter with the Government as well. It is welcome to have unusual procedures available to make sure that we get the final product right. Someone is telling me that my noble friend is not here. I merely wanted to record that he has raised the same matter. I am sure he will be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for raising it now.