1915 Armenian Genocide

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Monday 23rd March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

I am glad that Members have decided not to leave the Chamber. The subject of this Adjournment debate is the commemoration of one of the most appalling, heinous acts that has ever been committed on this earth: the Armenian genocide of 23 and 24 April 1915.

May I at the outset put one thing firmly on the record? What I have to say tonight is not an attack on the Government of Turkey. I am not criticising the Government of Turkey. I realise that these debates frequently engender much heat and very little light in Ankara, but I am talking specifically of the actions of the Ottoman empire and particularly the Young Turks, whom I will mention later, in 1915.

I make no apologies for raising this matter. Not only are we approaching the 100th anniversary of this appalling crime against humanity, in which 1.5 million people were killed in the most horrendous circumstances and an attempt was made to destroy an entire people—their culture, nationhood and very being and existence. This is also a time when two books have just been published. The first, “An Inconvenient Genocide” by Geoffrey Robertson, once and for all proves to those gainsayers who are still out there that the genocide was real and that it did happen: the dates, names and times are provided. The other excellent book is “The Fall of the Ottomans” by Eugene Rogan, which contains a chapter on the annihilation of the Armenians.

It is otiose even to ask the question, “Was there genocide?” Yet the question has been asked many times. People have said there was no genocide in 1915, but to a certain extent that was not the only genocide. The Armenians—a people of incredible, intense culture and great sophistication—were assaulted between 1894 and 1896, when 200,000 people were killed. There was the Adana massacre of 1909, in which 20,000 to 30,000 people were killed. In particular, leading up to 1915, after the 1912 Balkan wars, refugees from the Caucasus and Rumelia—they were known as muhacirs—moved from the south Balkans and the Caucasus into Anatolia. That movement into the traditional Armenian land, coupled with the aftermath of the battle of Sarikamish—which took place on 24 December 1914, when the Russians defeated the Ottoman army—led to a completely different situation whereby the peaceful Armenian people suddenly found themselves between different warring factions: on the one hand the Ottoman empire, and on the other people moving into their land, so they were dispossessed. The then War Minister, Enver Pasha, demobilised all Armenians from the army—many of them fought in the Ottoman army—into labour battalions, and the infamous tehcir law, which is known as the deportation law, was passed by Talaat Pasha, the Interior Minister.

At that particular time, the Young Turks had arrived—the Committee of Union and Progress as they were known—and the massacre commenced in Istanbul on the night of 23 April. It is impossible to imagine what it must have been like. Anatolia––western Armenia––was a peaceful country in which the Armenians had succeeded greatly. They had filled many posts, not just in the army, but in medicine and law. They were a peaceful and prosperous people. Just as the upper echelon of Poles at Katyn were massacred, similarly the upper echelon of Armenians were taken to slaughter.

Did it happen? There were so many eyewitnesses there at the time. American Ambassador Morgenthau gave a detailed account, and Father Grigoris Balakian, who survived and was in Istanbul when the entente fleets finally sailed in at the end of the war, gave an incredible amount of detail. Above all, one of the reasons why we in this House can discuss this matter and know about it is the single, definitive volume describing the horror of the genocide, namely the famous “Blue Book” by Lord Bryce and Arnold Toynbee.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Obviously, this is an important issue for us as parliamentarians. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is past time that the Turkish Government not only admitted to the historical genocide of 1.5 million Armenians, but apologised for the most horrific atrocities they carried out at the time? We cannot ignore the fact that the Turkish Government have to apologise for that.

[Stephen Pound]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but I am reluctant to go entirely down that route. Obviously the Turkish Government should do so, but today I am talking about the commemoration in this House, particularly as we approach 24 April. I cannot disagree with him—I surprise myself at how seldom I disagree with him—but we should concentrate on the subject at issue.

One and a half million people were driven to die in the burning sands of the Syrian desert in a death march to two concentration camps, in which the men were killed first. The then Interior Minister said, “Kill the men, the women and all the children up to the height of my knee.” If that is not genocide, I really do not know what is. In Trabzon—or Trebizond—14,000 were killed. Many of them were put into boats, which were dragged into the Black sea and sunk. People were injected with typhoid or morphine. Experiments took place on children in a way that presages what happened under the Nazis. Incidentally, what happened in Trebizond was witnessed by the Italian consul general, Gorrini, who started out being sceptical, but ended up as horrified as every other civilised person.

It happened: it is incontrovertible that it happened. It happened within the memory of some people still living. Their grandparents and their great-grandparents died: their bones are still there in the Syrian desert, and their homes are still there in Anatolia, no longer occupied, although their Christian churches have been destroyed. It is within living memory, so why are we not recognising it?

One of the joys of the Freedom of Information Act is that we can get hold of copies of confidential briefings from the south Caucasus team. Last time this issue was raised by Baroness Cox, that indefatigable friend of Armenia—she has visited Nagorno-Karabakh some 70 times, not always in a combat role, but frequently under fire—she had a debate on 29 March 2010, and I have been provided with the document, although it is partly redacted. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office position at the time was that

“it is not appropriate for the UK Government to use the term genocide”.

However, the briefing states:

“The British Government recognises that terrible suffering was inflicted on Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire…and we must ensure that the victims of that suffering are not forgotten.”

I am torn between admiration of the honesty of the ministerial officials and slight horror, because the middle paragraphs are entitled “Bear Traps”—things to watch out for. It goes on to say what would happen to Anglo-Turkish relations if the British Government agreed to the term, and it talks about early-day motion 357 and various other debates.

The crux of the reason why the Government would not agree to recognition is that in one debate—I have had three debates on this subject—the then Foreign Office Minister Geoffrey Hoon said that we could not call it the Armenian “genocide” because Raphael Lemkin did not invent the word until 1944 or 1945. Let us think about that for a minute. When Cain killed Abel, there was no word for fratricide, but Abel was just as dead as if there had been such a word. Raphael Lemkin was present in Berlin at the trial of Soghomon Tehlirian, one of the members of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation who was part of the Nemesis group that assassinated 10 of the 18 perpetrators of the genocide indicted in the military tribunal in Istanbul at the end of the first world war, in what most people think was an attempt to minimise the impact of the treaty of Versailles. Raphael Lemkin, who is accepted as the originator of the word, said that it was his experience of that trial, listening to the evidence of the genocide of the Armenian people, that made him use it. The assassination of Talaat Pasha in Berlin in 1921 clearly precedes the use of the word “genocide”, but the same person—the man who coined the word—was actually at that trial and referred to it.

We are not entirely sure how many, but 20 or 22 national Parliaments have recognised the Armenian genocide, including the devolved Assemblies in Scotland, Wales and—I am delighted to say—Northern Ireland. No one who visits the Genocide museum in Yerevan and sees testimony from all around the world, photographs, cards, letters and books can remain unmoved. No one can deny for a moment that something horrible and terrible beyond human imagination took place in western Armenia at that time.

Genocide is a crime that is intended to destroy a people. Genocide denial is a crime that is intended to destroy a people’s memory. The Armenian people will not have their memory, their culture, their individuality, their strength or their national pride destroyed. Many people have tried; none has ever succeeded, nor ever will they. Think of the double agony of those people whose families were massacred, whose culture was destroyed, whose homelands have been taken over and who are now having that very act denied. That, for me, is the supreme double cruelty.

The British Government will be represented in Gallipoli on 24 April. By coincidence—I make no comment about that—that is the same day as the international recognition of the Armenian genocide. The Gallipoli landing is often prayed in aid by those who apologise for the Ottoman empire of the time. They say that the Gallipoli landing somehow stimulated the action of the Young Turks, who were terrified that some Armenian fifth column would arise and attack Turkey with the Russians. In reality, as we all know, the massacre that started the great genocide took place on the night before. To suggest that moving the commemoration of Gallipoli to the same day, 24 April, as the Turks have done, is anything other than a provocative act is pushing credulity.

Will the British Government be present? President Putin will be there. Francois Hollande will be there. I have heard that a distinguished colleague of mine, although he might not be from my side of the Chamber, will be there. I admire that, I respect that and I am proud of that. We will hear from him later. Can we not go the extra mile? Can we not finally give support and succour to the Armenian people whose relatives died? Can we not say to the Armenian community in this country—one of the most peaceful, law-abiding, hard-working, decent communities that we are proud to have in our country—that we, along with 22 other countries of the world, recognise the genocide that took place? Edinburgh has recognised it. Many councils have recognised it. Even my own little borough of Ealing has done so. We have a strong Armenian apricot tree growing in Ealing soil—British soil—in commemoration of that event. I would like to see a memorial garden in Ealing.

I would like to see wider recognition. Is that not fair when a people have suffered, as have the Armenian people? In many cases, they have suffered in silence. We do not see huge marches through the city or massive protests. The Armenian people are a dignified people. The people of Armenian descent in our country concentrate on hard work, on achievement and on preserving their dignity, but they also keep their culture. They have integrated, but they have not been assimilated. To be Armenian is to be a good citizen, but it is also to be different. That unique, special Armenian quality is worthy of a little recognition.

Can we not finally say it in this House—maybe not tonight, maybe not even before the election, but some time soon? For years it has been our policy to deny that the Armenian genocide took place, and yet we have the FCO briefing here that talks about the suffering of the Armenian people. Would it hurt so much? Are we not straining at the gnat here? Could we not go that last little bit and say, “Yes, it happened.”? Then, hopefully, the wave of global condemnation would wash up even across the battlements in Ankara and the Turkish Government would admit that their predecessors, the Ottoman Government back in 1915, did commit appalling crimes.

I was in this House, as were you, Mr Speaker, when the then Prime Minister, Mr Blair, apologised for the Irish famine of 1848. He apologised on behalf of this country for an appalling act that was horrendous in its brutality and in its impact on the Irish people. He felt justified in apologising for that. Some people said that he should not have done so. I think that he did so because this country was very much a part of that process. I think that Mr Blair did the right thing in apologising.

We have an opportunity tonight to do the right thing, and not just by our Armenian friends, our Armenian brothers and sisters, our Armenian community, our Armenian fellow citizens—those people who have earned the right to our respect and friendship through their contribution to our society. We have an opportunity to do the right thing not just for the sake of Armenia and the Armenian people, but for the sake of humanity. Humanity really needs to recognise what happened in 1915. As long as it is denied, it can happen again. As long as we say, “It didn’t happen”, we echo the terrible words that everybody remembers from Hitler in 1939, when he justified the invasion of Poland by saying, “Who now remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?”

I think that all decent people, all human beings, recognise and remember the annihilation of the Armenians, and I hope that we are all determined to recognise it and ensure that it never happens again. I say to my Armenian friends, fellow citizens and Armenian brothers and sisters: we thank you for all you have done for this country, and this is our small way of returning that thanks.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) on securing the debate. I pay tribute to the moving way in which both he and my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) spoke about the tragedy that befell the Armenian people just over 100 years ago.

It was on 24 April 1915 that about 250 leading members of the Armenian community in Istanbul were arrested. This marked the beginning of a campaign of forced deportations directed against the Ottoman Armenian community. From 1915 to 1916 during the course of the deportations to the Syrian desert, it is estimated that well over 1 million Ottoman Armenians lost their lives as a result of massacres by soldiers or irregulars, forced marches, starvation and disease. A number of other minorities, such as the Assyrians, also suffered.

The British Government of that time robustly condemned the forced deportations, massacres and other crimes. We continue to endorse that view. British charities, as we look back, played a major part then in humanitarian relief operations. The deaths of more than 1 million Armenians in the Ottoman empire was an appalling civilian loss of life against the backdrop of the first world war, a conflict which itself broke new ground in developing international warfare on an industrial scale.

Today, the centenary of those terrible events has huge significance, as the hon. Member for Ealing North said, for the people of Armenia and for the worldwide Armenian diaspora. As an inseparable part of the tragedy of first world war, it is entirely appropriate that we in this country include this tragedy in our remembrance of the first world war to honour the dead, and to draw lessons from history and hope for a better future. The British Government’s commemorations this year have focused on how the first world war shaped society and touched lives and communities. The deportation and massacres of the Ottoman Armenians, and the role played by the UK and other allies in reporting the atrocities and helping the survivors, are an indivisible part of that story. The events and commemorative activities, which the Armenian community in the UK will organise on 24 April and over the course of this year, will help to illuminate further that period of history for British people, some of whom may be hearing about it for the first time.

The appalling nature of the events of 1915-16 were brought home vividly to me when I visited the Tsitsernakaberd memorial museum in Yerevan during my first ministerial visit to Armenia in 2012. When I went back to Armenia last year, I laid a wreath at the memorial to pay my respects to those who had died and those who had suffered. As has been said, in this centenary year my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon, as chair of the British-Armenian all-party group, and our ambassador to Yerevan will be present at the Armenian Government’s commemorations on 24 April in the Armenian capital.

As discussed in today’s debate, for this country and the Commonwealth the dates of 24 and 25 April have great significance for an additional reason, as the days we remember the centenary of the allied landings at Gallipoli. On 24 April, His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales will attend a ceremony in Gallipoli to honour the memory of all those who died during the campaign, including soldiers from Britain, Ireland, France, Australia, New Zealand, the Indian subcontinent, Canada and Sri Lanka, as well as the Ottoman soldiers who died defending the peninsula. Those sombre commemorations in both Gallipoli and Yerevan should be used to honour the memory of those who lost their lives, whether soldiers or civilians, and to reflect carefully on the painful lessons we have learnt from history and how to prevent such events from happening again.

The hon. Member for Ealing North asked me a direct question about the Government’s policy on the recognition of the events in Armenia as a genocide. I have to say to him that the Government’s policy, indeed the policy of successive Governments, has not changed since 1988 when this matter was reviewed. We take the view that genocide is not simply an expression of a political judgment. It is now a crime, and the British Government recognise as genocide only those events found to be so by international courts—for example, the holocaust and the massacres in Srebrenica and Rwanda. We do not exercise a political judgment in ascribing the term “genocide” to a set of events, whether in Armenia, the Holodomor in Ukraine or the massacres of the Kurds by Saddam Hussein in 1998.

In honouring and reflecting upon the past, it is vital that we look to the future. The peoples and Governments of Turkey and Armenia need to find a way to face their joint history together and forge a new, more constructive relationship, and part of the role the UK seeks for itself is to support them in finding this path forward. I will not pretend that we from London can provide instant answers, but we are doing what we can practically to foster people-to-people exchanges and links between the two countries to break down stereotypes and barriers. For example, we have just completed a successful exchange of Turkish and Armenian Chevening alumni who visited each other’s countries for the first time.

Ultimately, the Governments of Armenia and Turkey must take the lead in forging and delivering that new relationship. For that reason, the UK Government strongly supported the imaginative diplomacy that led to the Turkish-Armenia protocols in 2009. The protocols envisaged opening the border and initiating diplomatic relations without any preconditions, and it is a matter of great regret that the ratification process for those protocols has not moved forward. I hope that both sides will continue to consider creative ways to re-set their relations and open up new channels for dialogue and co-operation.

This year, we will reflect with sadness on the nature and horrific scale of the deportations, massacres and other crimes in 1915-16 and on the importance of this centenary for Armenia and Armenians worldwide, but we will also renew our commitment this year to promote reconciliation between Armenia and Turkey. A genuine step forward along that path to reconciliation would take us towards a more peaceful and secure future for everyone living in the region. I continue to hope that both Turkey and Armenia can find a way to look together towards a brighter future.

[Stephen Pound]

I have immense respect for the right hon. Gentleman—he and I have met the President of Armenia, and I entirely respect his position—but immediately after the genocide, the British Navy took 50 of the worst suspects from the Young Turks to Malta to try them because it recognised that what had happened was against civilisation. There was not sufficient legislation at the time for the trial to take place so the British took them back—probably rightly so—but does he not agree that we need that recognition now so as to avoid such a situation in the future? I am not criticising Turkey. I am talking about the Ottoman empire.

[Mr Lidington]

I hesitate to get into a legal dispute with the hon. Gentleman, but we take the view, as have successive British Governments, that international law, including the 1948 protocol on genocide, is not retroactive, and that is part of the explanation for our position. That is not to detract from the horror of what took place 100 years ago, or to suggest that we will draw back from our commitment to seek the reconciliation of the peoples of Turkey and Armenia and to strive as hard as we can to bring about that much desired outcome.

Question put and agreed to.

Palestine

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Monday 1st December 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Roger Godsiff (Birmingham, Hall Green) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) on securing the debate.

My hon. Friend called for an end to trade and investment with the illegal settlements in the west bank. I agree, of course, and everyone else who looks at the situation would agree. Some have called for a complete ban on arms sales to Israel and others have called for a complete embargo on trade. I have no problem with those ideas. My right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) said, quite rightly, that the tourniquet around Gaza should be removed. I entirely agree.

We should be under no illusion, however. The Israeli Government are not in the slightest bit interested in what the British Government or the European Union say; their only interest is in not the words but the actions of the American Government, who will not allow Israel to go under.

The American Government provide more than $2.5 billion-worth of arms to Israel every year. They will never allow Israel to be wiped out. The people running Israel, such as Netanyahu, Bennett and Lieberman, are all “greater Israel” and settler people—Bennett is the leader of the settler movement and its spokesperson in Parliament—and they are out to colonise the west bank. Of course the Americans say again and again, “You’re wrong—you shouldn’t do it”, but in the Security Council they will always veto any proposals that could put Israel under threat in their eyes.

I used to believe in the two-state solution, but it is no longer viable. We have only to look at the geography on the ground: Gaza is totally populated by Palestinians; Israel is overwhelmingly Jewish; 40% of the west bank has been colonised by Israel; and there is a large Palestinian population in Jordan.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend talks about the demographics of Israel and Palestine. May I please implore him not to forget the existing Christian communities there, such as the Armenian Orthodox and various other communities? The problem is not one of only two sides, but of many sides.

[Mr Godsiff]

I entirely accept what my hon. Friend says; of course there are many other religious groups. That is why Jerusalem is so vital: it is the main place of worship for a whole variety of religions.

Anyone looking in would say, “Well, Jerusalem ought to be like Rome.” It ought to be a holy city administered by all the religions, but the Israeli Government say that it is the capital of the state of Israel. We are dealing with people who, I regret to say, are not the same as previous leaders of Israel, most of whom were members of the Labour party and whom I had the opportunity to meet. The leaders of Israel now are not the same as Peres, Rabin or even Golda Meir. They are very different.

Government Strategy Against IS

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Friday 12th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The key role has to be played by the newly formed Government in Iraq, who have the prime responsibility to bring together the leaders of the diverse communities within Iraq to work for the common purpose of defeating ISIL conclusively. We are playing an active role in encouraging Iraqi leaders from all communities to play a constructive role in that effort. When my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development was in Iraq in August this year, she talked to Mr al-Abadi and the president of the Kurdish Regional Government about precisely that issue.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

Last Sunday afternoon, I was privileged to be part of a large demonstration made up predominantly of Iraqi Christians but also including Yazidi and other minority communities. They handed in a petition to Downing street. Their cry from the heart was for United Kingdom support for a safe haven. What is the Minister’s response to that cry?

[Mr Lidington]

The Government are committed to doing everything that we can to safeguard the position of Christian and other minorities in Iraq. The best and most rapid way to do that will be to re-establish the authority of the legitimate Iraqi authorities over the area now being terrorised by ISIL. I can say to the House that, as well as the political work on reconciliation being carried out in Baghdad, the Iraqi army, after initial reverses, are now taking ground back from ISIL. We want to make sure that we continue to provide support to the Iraqi and Kurdish forces to enable them to continue doing that.

Kashmir

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Thursday 11th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) bemoaned the preponderance of white, middle-aged males. Thus, I rise with some trepidation and I can only offer an apology—there are some things that I am capable of changing and there are some things that are beyond that.

When I was being lobbied this morning by my appropriately named constituent, Amarjit Jammu, she asked me whether I would be her voice in this afternoon’s debate. I am happy to be that and the voice of many other people. If there is one thing that we have established early on in this debate, it is that it is a debate of entire legitimacy. To say that this issue is something of which we should not speak is wrong; however, to say that it is something that we could inflame is a matter that we must consider. Whether we have a constituency interest in this matter, have a birth line connected to the region or are simple humanitarians—citizens of this planet—we have a duty, an obligation and a right to debate, discuss and speak about these issues.

I commend the quality of the speakers today. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) spoke extremely movingly from his personal constituency experience. However, the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) was quite simply one of the finest speeches I have heard in Westminster Hall, if not in this House; not only does she speak from a Mirpuri background, as well as with knowledge and understanding, but she speaks with a cool humanity and decency, while looking to the future positively. I found that immensely impressive.

My hon. Friend also mentioned in passing—a few other speakers have mentioned it—the sheer heart-stopping, dazzling beauty of Kashmir. What an utter tragedy it is that this place, this heaven on Earth, is at the moment scarred by this bloody conflict. My hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) and I have visited Kashmir on two or three occasions. We have been on Dal lake and seen the cedar houseboats bobbing silently and unused by the sides of the lake, which should be one of the great tourist attractions of the world. We have also seen Gulmarg, and even the 100 Pipers whisky distillery nestling in the highlands, as well as St Andrew’s church. Overwhelmingly, what we have seen in Kashmir is a place that is the reflection of God in its beauty, but also where there is horror, sadness and tragedy. In addition to the places I have mentioned, there is the plateau, Kargil and the line of control. There is a frozen conflict, taking place in temperatures many degrees below zero, in one of the most inhospitable places on Earth.

Can we nail, once and for all, the suggestion that the Indian army would be in this place—where soldiers can only serve for 12 hours at a time before they have to be evacuated, before being moved back in again—if it were not for the fact that if they were not there the cross-border problem would be so serious, damaging and cataclysmic? Their presence is absolutely essential. Soldiers do not fight, or stand guard on watchtowers, in sub-zero temperatures and in such an inhospitable environment unless it is utterly essential. That is why the Indian army is there.

We have an answer; we have the Simla agreement of 1972. One of the most important things that we can do today is to recognise the good that is being done in Kashmir. There is some movement towards rapprochement and we should hail that movement.

Some years ago—I think it was in 2002 or 2003—my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North visited Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed. I well remember that the economic issues in Kashmir then were the preponderant ones. His daughter, Mehbooba Mufti, was working on a hydro-electric project then to provide free energy to some villages from Kashmir’s ample—indeed, massive—and wonderful supply of fast-flowing waters. It was that type of issue that mattered. One thing that must arise from this debate is not only a recognition of this most tragic of long-standing conflicts but the need to consider—not only from our perspective in this country but, I hope, from the perspective of the EU—offering assistance in nation-building, including providing economic support, assistance and advice.

Let us look at the positives. The devastating and horrendous floods in the region have been mentioned many times, as has the reaction of the Indian Government. On his recent visit to Jammu and Kashmir, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has shown the hand of friendship in a most conciliatory way. His letter of 7 September to Nawaz Sharif, offering all possible assistance in the region, is one of the most important developments in Indian-Pakistan relations. The fact that Prime Minister Modi invited Prime Minister Sharif to his inauguration has already been mentioned. That is the hand of friendship being offered. It is a move towards two great nations coming together, and not—as in the past—in a confrontational way.

Let us never forget the wise words of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood), when he spoke earlier. Quite rightly, he reminded the House that this is not simply a territorial or localised dispute; this is a dispute that has led us twice—twice—to the edge of nuclear war. It is that important; in fact, we would be derelict in our duty in this House if we did not discuss this matter.

We must give credit where it is due. I make no bones about it: I have visited Narendra Modi. I am sorry to keep mentioning my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North—Members must have the impression that he and I have spent most of our time travelling the world together, which is not true at all—but we visited Narendra Modi. When I think of Narendra Modi’s reputation in the early days, compared with the conciliatory peacemaker that we now see today, it is quite extraordinary. That approach of friendship and bilateral resolution to the problem—assisted, advised, supported and endorsed by other democratic institutions—represents the best way forward.

[Mr Khalid Mahmood]

Will my hon. Friend confirm, unlike the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), that wherever there are human rights abuses—India, Pakistan, China, wherever—they should be investigated, and investigated properly?

[Stephen Pound]

I am happy to respond to my hon. Friend by saying: precisely so. Of course that should be the case. Equally, however, we must look at the solution. I make no apologies for returning to the contribution by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood. I sincerely hope that her words are studied in Islamabad and Delhi, because they were the wisest and most sensible words we have heard today. We have not yet heard from the Minister—he may exceed them—but we should take those words with us from this meeting, because they are the words of someone who knows more about this subject than almost anyone else here in Westminster Hall, and who sees a future and a positive way forward.

This has been an extraordinarily well informed, well attended and well supported debate; it is a tribute to those constituents and friends who have contacted us about this issue that there has been such a good turnout today. I freely give credit to the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) for quite rightly feeling the temperature of the House and calling this debate today and to the Backbench Business Committee for endorsing it.

Let this debate not be remembered as one of recrimination, point-scoring and finger-pointing. Let it mark the point at which we start to look forward to a brighter tomorrow, and move towards a coming-together of two democratic nations that we in this country have very close ties and links with, and that I hope we will always support. Then, may the people of Jammu and Kashmir—that beautiful but benighted part of the world—enjoy the peace and civilised society that they more than deserve and that is too long overdue.

Human Rights (North Korea)

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Tuesday 13th May 2014 Westminster Hall

[Kerry McCarthy]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Indeed, as the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) said, debates such as this are important because if we speak out, our voices do get heard, despite the restrictions in North Korea. I would also echo the points made about the BBC World Service, although I am not going to dwell on that because those points were made comprehensively.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

I do not wish to depress the House even more, but does my hon. Friend agree that things are actually getting worse by the day? We now have a situation in which Satan is devouring his children. The regime is slaughtering its own, and there has never been a time when it has been more vital that we promulgate these facts, as we heard at the meeting of the all-party group last week. Who would have thought that matters could get worse? But they have and continue to do so. That is why debates such as this are so vital.

[Kerry McCarthy]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. I just mentioned the food situation in North Korea—how do we influence a regime that does not seem to care whether its people starve? What sort of leverage do we have when the issue is not just the repression of people’s freedom of expression and religion and their right to challenge the regime, but the fact that North Korea’s leaders seem perfectly happy to sit back and let their people starve? Things have indeed become much worse. I will come to how, as a matter of absolute priority, we must look at what we can do to try to change the situation.

We also heard from the report about how discrimination against women and girls has resulted in their becoming increasingly vulnerable to trafficking and prostitution. The punishments associated with transgressions are severe and arbitrary, including summary executions, most notably that of Kim Jong-un’s uncle in December last year.

The prison camps are indicative of the North Korean state’s complete rejection of basic human rights and international law. We hear about people being disappeared because of their connection with the Republic of Korea or Christian Churches—they are taken off to political prison camps. It was, I suppose, a small sign that things were not quite as bad as they have been that the commission found that guilt by association is now less frequent, although that is more than compensated for by some of the other atrocities that occur. Nevertheless, although some relatives are still at risk, the commission found that guilt by association is not quite as prevalent as it was previously.

To use the commission’s words, “unspeakable atrocities” are being committed in the camps, including

“deliberate starvation, forced labour, executions, torture, rape and the denial of reproductive rights enforced through punishment, forced abortion and infanticide.”

It estimates that hundreds of thousands of people have died in the camps over the past 50 years, and that between 80,000 and 120,000 political prisoners are currently detained in four camps and being subjected to horrifying treatment.

The report leaves us in no doubt that action from the wider international community is imperative. As the commission stated,

“The fact that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, as a State Member of the United Nations, has for decades pursued policies involving crimes that shock the conscience of humanity raises questions about the inadequacy of the response of the international community.”

It went on to stress:

“The international community must accept its responsibility to protect the people of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea from crimes against humanity, because the Government of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has manifestly failed to do so.”

We know that that will continue.

The commission’s report must ensure not only that the world’s attention is on the plight of the people of North Korea, but that urgent action is taken. As has already been mentioned, action from China is key because it is one of the few countries that has some leverage on the situation. As the commission stated,

“China pursues a rigorous policy of forcibly repatriating”

North Korean citizens who have managed to flee their country, despite their being refugees in need of, and entitled to, international protection.

China not only fails to respect the principle of non-refoulement; the commission suggests that, in some cases, Chinese officials inform their North Korean counterparts about those they have apprehended. According to the commission, those repatriated are systematically subjected to

“persecution, torture, prolonged arbitrary detention and, in some cases, sexual violence, including during invasive body searches.”

As we have heard, repatriated pregnant women are subjected to forced abortions, while babies born to returned women are often killed. The risk of refoulement, and their fate in North Korea, prevents defectors who manage to get to China from registering their children’s birth in China, denying them access to health services and education. It is estimated that there are 20,000 children born to DPRK women in China. In failing such defectors, China is failing in its international responsibilities, so it is imperative that the international community challenges it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kerry McCarthy]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. What always has to be weighed up is whether such a move would make life easier or worse for the people in the country. People in the country know how dreadful the situation is there. People from the diaspora community here would, obviously, need to highlight that to win over international opinion, ensuring that this matter is firmly on the political agenda. I am not so sure, although I have only just heard the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion, what the impact would be of such footage being displayed in North Korea. There is a particular danger of measures being taken against people’s relatives who are still in the country. We have to be slightly worried about that.

[Stephen Pound]

rose—

[Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair)]

Order. Before the hon. Lady gives way, she might like to consider that we are eating into the Minister’s time.

[Kerry McCarthy]

I am sorry; I thought we had until a quarter past.

[Stephen Pound]

As my hon. Friend is aware, the North Korean embassy is in my borough of Ealing. I have tried to work with some of the North Korean diaspora in west London, to mount some sort of protest so that people can hear an alternative voice. I have to say to her that they are terrified. The crime of guilt by association throughout the family is so corrosive that, sadly and tragically, they will not dare to raise their heads above the parapet.

[Kerry McCarthy]

My hon. Friend obviously speaks from experience, having talked to the diaspora about this point.

I conclude with the words of the UN high commissioner for human rights, Navi Pillay, who has warned that in looking at what was happening in the DPRK,

“insufficient attention was being paid to the kind of horrific and sustained human rights violations”

that were going on there. Her conclusion was that

“there can no longer be any excuses”

for ignoring that.

Freedom of Thought, Conscience and Religion

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Thursday 1st May 2014 Commons Chamber

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

It is a privilege to speak on this subject in the House. Since I last spoke about atrocities in North Korea, the devastating 400-page report of the UN Commission of Inquiry on Human Rights in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has been published. I pay tribute to Mr Justice Kirby, who chaired the commission. More than 80 first-hand testimonies were taken from witnesses and victims at public hearings in Seoul, Tokyo, London and Washington DC, and there were more than 240 confidential interviews and written representations. The commission found a gravity and scale of violation of the freedoms of thought, conscience and religion that have no parallel in the contemporary world. Indeed, they are almost completely denied, as are the rights of freedom of opinion, expression, information and association.

The North Korean state considers the spread of Christianity a particularly serious threat, since it challenges ideologically the official personality cult of the leadership. Christians are prohibited from practising their religion and persecuted in particularly severe ways.

I wish to focus largely on the fact that the freedom of thought of every individual in the North Korean state is minimised. Indeed, there is an attempt to virtually eliminate it from childhood. I will quote some of the examples in the commission’s report:

“The State operates an indoctrination machine that takes root from childhood”,

which is intended to

“manufacture absolute obedience to the Supreme Leader…effectively to the exclusion of”

any independent thought whatever. One witness said:

“You are brainwashed…don’t know the life outside. You are brainwashed from the time you know how to talk, about 4 years of age, from nursery school, brainwashing through education, this happens everywhere in life…even at home.”

Children are taught even before they can read that the only drawings that they should make are those of the supreme leader or those that would give him pleasure.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

It is crucial that the hon. Lady’s points are ventilated internationally, because we simply must expose this horror. Does she agree that, although there is no hierarchy of horror, one of the most terrifying aspects of the North Korean society is family guilt by association? Children who are born of mothers in concentration camps will live their entire lives there. Is that not taking the horror to a new, nightmarish level that is almost unprecedented?

[Fiona Bruce]

I absolutely agree. Guilt by association, whereby if one member of the family offends the regime three generations can be incarcerated, is absolutely heinous.

For children, participation in mass games is required, to instil a high degree of organisation, discipline and collectivism. Schoolchildren, conscious that a single slip in their action might spoil the mass gymnastic performance, make every effort to subordinate their thoughts and actions to the collective. One student described in her testimony to the commission how she had missed an entire semester of university education because her class was required to practise for six months, 10 hours a day, for a parade. Participants fainted from exhaustion, and many suffered injuries. Those who repeated mistakes were made to remain on the training ground until midnight as a punishment. She told of a seven-year-old boy who had practised through the intense pain of appendicitis and then died.

Children in the DPRK are introduced at an early stage to confession and criticism sessions resonant of the Nazi period. They gather in groups weekly to describe how they have grieved the leadership’s teaching during the previous week, and they are encouraged to identify the failings of at least one of their peers in the same group. The number of indoctrination sessions across the country appears to be increasing.

All citizens have to become members of workers’ parties, and from seven onwards children are made members of the children’s union—no doubt so that the indoctrination that happens in school can continue outside as well. Membership of the association serves several basic functions. One is to organise and monitor the daily activities of individuals. The foremost duty is to worship the Kim family, and another is to secure the nation through the monitoring and assessment of loyalty. In other words, any independent thought or belief, and certainly any independent faith, is to be eliminated. The possibility of holding such thoughts is to be extracted from individuals before they can think independently for themselves, from the earliest stage of their life.

The propaganda continues in local administrations, place of work and at various other levels. Pictures of the leader are promoted everywhere, and any offence against the leadership will be punished severely. One witness described how his father had unintentionally soiled an image of Kim Jong-il, the leader, which was printed in a used newspaper that he had used to mop up spilt drink. He was sent to a political prison camp. The rest of the family were spared his fate, but suffered years of harsh official discrimination.

In another testimony, a journalist who made a typographical error and misspelt the leader’s name in a report was sent to a camp for six months as a punishment. The central propaganda unit ensures that all content prepared by journalists goes through several layers of review and censorship to ensure that it is completely in line with state ideology.

There is some hope. CDs and other forms of new media are getting into North Korea, so that not only is information getting out and telling us what is happening, but information about the world outside is also going in, albeit at great risk to those who take it in. One witness in China informed the commission that a relative of hers had watched a CD-ROM and given it friends. He was arrested by the local authorities, publicly tried and executed. Another person who had imported “capitalist goods” such as CD-ROMs from South Korea was told that they would be shot or imprisoned for 10 to 15 years, depending on the severity of the crime and level of involvement. People living along the border with China have started to use mobile phones. It means that information is going into North Korea through that route, but again, those who are discovered are subject to interrogation, often under torture.

One man tell of how, in detention, agents took turns beating him with pieces of wood; he lost his teeth and his lower jaw. Another was interrogated and severely tortured for using a mobile phone, and this resulted in head injuries and fractured bones. Writers talk about the fact that to write in protest is equivalent to death. Someone can slip just once in their writing and disappear over night. Their family can be gone over night—three generations wiped out.

It is a privilege to speak about this in the House, and I know that people in Korea take note. When I first spoke in this House of the sufferings of the people in North Korea, I was deeply moved to receive a letter from their compatriots in South Korea which said, “Carry on.” Today I say to the people of North Korea: “Be encouraged. We are not unaware of your sufferings. In a global age, testimony of your plight is increasingly reaching the world, not least in the form of Mr Justice Kirby’s authoritative and powerful report. The world now knows and we must not stand by without acting. Hold fast. Change must come. Your plight cannot last for ever. History has shown that kingdoms rise and fall; chains can be loosed and tyrants pulled down. Know that MPs across this House are deeply concerned about your suffering, and will continue to speak out about it until change comes.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Neill]

There is no doubt that we must move very carefully, and must ensure that Iran is genuinely complying with all the international obligations with which an accepted state should comply. Although—as we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis)—there has been an occasional act of generosity towards Christian and other faith communities in Iran, it remains a matter of concern that since the election of President Rohani many Christians have been arrested, and more than 50 remain in prison. I think that the new regime is very much on probation, and that Britain, together with our allies, must be vigilant in ensuring that not too easy a ride is given to those who may wish to push it back in a reactionary direction.

Iran is indeed an important factor, but I want to say a little about two other issues which, although well known, are worth referring to again. What is happening in Syria is a horror story by any account. It is a horror story for all Syrians, regardless of their faith and regardless of where they find themselves in that country. There is particular concern about what is increasingly being shown to be the targeted persecution of the Christian community in Syria. The Christians are not alone: Alawites and Shi’a and Sunni Muslims have also been targeted in some cases. However, there is a real fear that the Christian community—which, after all, is one of the oldest communities in the middle east: we all remember the Damascene conversion, which is one of the roots of Christianity and dates back to its very earliest days—is under unacceptable and very frightening pressure.

The Christian charity Open Doors has been doing valuable work in screening many international media sources to find examples of persecutions of Christians. Its global researches have established that some 2,123 Christians have been killed because of their faith, and that 1,213 of them have been killed in Syria. We have also seen the systemic targeting of Christian churches, 83 in Syria and 492 in Egypt. Mass graves were discovered in the ancient Christian town of Sadad, which had been overrun by rebel extremists.

[Stephen Pound]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is as informative as he is generous. Does he agree that one of the most extraordinary aspects of his speech so far is the fact that it has featured no examples of the mass conversions from Christianity that occurred in the Ottoman empire? Should we not be remembering, in our thoughts and in our prayers, the Christians who keep their faith even in the most horrendous circumstances? Is that not truly the most remarkable fact that has emerged from this afternoon’s debate?

[Robert Neill]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Those of us who are not afraid to regard ourselves and publicly label ourselves as Christians should consider that to be an important and integral part of the faith that binds him and me, and many others in the Chamber, to the Christians who are suffering outside. That strength is the great value that Christianity brings not only to this country, but to the world as a whole. As we know, there have been examples of mass conversion elsewhere in the world. Reference has been made to Nigeria, and heaven knows what has befallen some of the young girls who were abducted recently in the north of that country.

It is important that the western powers, in seeking to bring peace to Syria and to deal with a vile regime in the form of the Assads, do not allow that regime to be replaced by one of the many others that are dominated by foreign jihadis who are determined to destroy a vulnerable community in one of its ancient heartlands.

Although we of course welcome the opportunity for democracy that the Arab spring has brought, we must accept that there is a real concern that it has also brought something of a winter of persecution for Christians throughout the wider middle east. Open Doors and Christian Solidarity Worldwide have done a lot of work in this area. They have discovered, for example, that some 200,000 Christians are thought to have fled Egypt—a country where I have personal connections and which I have visited—since the overthrow of President Hosni Mubarak. He was not perfect, but I am afraid that the situation for Christians has deteriorated greatly since then. At the end of March, a Christian woman, Mary Sameh George, was beaten, stabbed and shot to death in Cairo, apparently because in her car—a car she used to deliver food and medicine to the elderly—there was a crucifix. As Bishop Kyrillos of the Coptic Church has said, when such things occur, there is no sense that even the present regime has a full commitment to tackling those issues. It is very important that Britain and our western allies use every available means of pressure to ensure that, if the new regimes in Egypt and elsewhere want to be accepted in the world community, religiously motivated sectarianism is bore down on wherever it comes from.

We have sought to do our bit. Many parliamentarians from this place and the other place are part of the UK delegation to the Council of Europe, where we have the opportunity to debate these issues at length. However, we need that consistent approach from Her Majesty’s Government. Support for religious minorities is not tradeable against any other interest in the conduct of foreign policy.

The examples overseas are important, but I want to finish by saying a word or two about the situation at home. I am not afraid to define my political activity as influenced in part by my faith, as is that of many others, and we should not therefore allow a degree, which we sometimes see, of surprisingly illiberal secularism to drown out the mention of faith in our public space. I was genuinely saddened that the Prime Minister—indeed, it could have been the leader of any other major political party—was criticised for having raised the importance of faith in the public debate. That letter from a number of no doubt eminent intellectuals was the most illiberal exposition of liberalism that I have seen in many a long day, and we ought to say that clearly.

Ukraine

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Monday 28th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I can accommodate the remaining colleagues only if there is extreme economy, in which exercise I am sure we will be led by Mr Stephen Pound.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

Quite rightly we are discussing south-eastern Ukraine, but there is an issue on the Polish border to the west. What assurance can the Foreign Secretary give my Polish constituents that he is not neglecting that aspect of the problem in his discussions?

[Mr Hague]

I am always in close touch with the Polish Foreign Minister about all those issues, as well as with the Ukrainian Government, and we will of course discuss those matters when I go to the region next week.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

We have had many discussions at many different levels with those countries. I think it was significant that, when it came to the vote at the UN General Assembly on what has happened in Crimea, only 11 countries in the world supported the Russian position. Even many of the countries of the Commonwealth of Independent States were not willing to support the Russian position. That is an illustration of Russia’s diplomatic isolation on the issue.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

The long-suffering Christian communities of Kessab were mentioned earlier. The Foreign Secretary will be aware that this community is predominantly of Armenian origin, facing the 100th anniversary of the last Armenian genocide. Many of my Armenian constituents are convinced that Turkey is facilitating, or at least not preventing, the cross-border attacks and atrocities. Will he undertake to raise this matter with his opposite numbers?

[Mr Hague]

As I said earlier to my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), we are very concerned about what has happened, particularly in recent days, in that part of Syria. We do, in any case, raise with Turkey the importance of doing everything possible to stop the flow of foreign fighters into Syria. Given the concern in this House, it is a point we will raise again with the Turkish Government.

Ukraine, Syria and Iran

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Monday 24th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

My hon. Friend is right to say that this is an enormous issue and that until it is resolved it is an impediment to relations of the sort that we want to see. But we also want to see a wider change in the foreign policy of Iran, which has created great difficulties for the region through the Iranians’ involvement in Syria, Lebanon and other parts of the middle east. We would like them to work much more constructively with their various neighbours, including those in the Gulf, and we would like to see a marked improvement in their appalling human rights record.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

I am sure I am not the only Member of Parliament struggling to resolve cases of Ukrainians born before 1991 seeking safety in this country who are, in effect, stateless. Would the Foreign Secretary have a gentle word with his colleagues in the Home Office regarding the exceptional circumstances of those who had only internal passports, who have no external passports and find themselves trapped in our asylum process?

[Mr Hague]

This is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, as the hon. Gentleman knows and correctly identifies, so I cannot give a more detailed answer than the Home Office has given him in the past, but I will draw the attention of my colleagues to the point he raises.

Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

May I share with the House the fact that this month marks the 20th anniversary of the ceasefire between Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh, which is also known as the mountainous Karabakh republic? Many people know very little about the political situation in the south Caucasus, but I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) and the noble Lady, Baroness Cox in the other House, for frequently raising the subject. My purpose in raising it in this Adjournment debate is that the Minsk process has sought to resolve the conflict since the ceasefire 20 years ago, but now appears to be stalled, if not frozen. I seek tonight to try to apply the gentlest of nudges to the three Minsk co-chairs, to see if we cannot make progress.

It is difficult to understand and almost impossible to appreciate the full extent and horror of the war that raged between February 1988 and May 1994 in Nagorno-Karabakh. One has to go back many centuries if one wants to discover its origin, but, for the sake of brevity, Mr Speaker, and to avoid testing your patience and indulgence, I shall refer to a couple of simple and basic facts. In that war—and it was a war; it was not a regional conflict, a local conflagration or skirmish—on one side was an Azerbaijani army of 42,000 people, of whom 11,000 died, and on the Armenian side was an army of 20,000, of whom 6,000 died. There were Afghan mujaheddin and Chechen volunteers fighting on the side of the Azeris, and Armenian volunteers and people from the diaspora fighting on the other side. It was an extraordinarily bloody war, and I think that, because there was UK-British involvement in the early days of the creation of the boundaries of these republics, we have a duty to do what we can to nudge the matter forward.

After the Russian revolution in 1917, the three south Caucasian republics, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia, together formed a trans-Caucasian federation, which sadly did not last long, collapsing after three months. British troops occupied a great deal of the south Caucasus, particularly Baku in Azerbaijan, in 1919, pending the Paris peace conference—a period in which we were rightly involved in the area. However, the Soviet army invaded and set up something called the Kavburo—the Caucasus bureau—which at the time voted 4:3 in favour of the area we know as the mountainous Karabakh republic or Nagorno-Karabakh being allocated to Armenia.

You will know, Mr Speaker, as will many in this House, that the dividing line between the two communities is very deep and very ancient. Armenia has been a Christian country since 301 AD; the vast majority of the population of Nagorno-Karabakh are Christian, and the majority of the population of Azerbaijan Muslim. There has been a degree of tension, which has spilled over into bloody ethnic conflict.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Churches had to register in Azerbaijan by 1 January 2010. Any house churches active after that date were raided by police and state authorities, with church leaders arrested and sent to jail. Should not our Government make representations to the Azerbaijan Government to stop the persecution of Christians and actions against the churches?

[Stephen Pound]

The hon. Gentleman’s record on addressing the persecution of Christians is second to none, and I hope that his words reverberate and are heard beyond this Chamber.

After the Caucasus bureau voted for Nagorno-Karabakh being allocated to Armenia, there was an intervention by the Communist party leader in Azerbaijan, Nariman Narimanov, who reversed that decision. He was guided in this by the people’s commissar for nationalities—better known to us as Joseph Stalin.

Things came to a head in 1985, when Gorbachev was elected in the Soviet Union. In the ensuing feeling of perestroika—the slight lifting of the yoke—there were demonstrations in Yerevan and Baku, which were very much about determination of what was then called an enclave between the two countries. In February 1988, there were skirmishes near Askeran in Artsakh, on the Stepanakert-Agdam road. Then there was what is still—rightly—called the pogram in Sumgait, in which many Armenians were killed in the most horrendous circumstances. There were riots for three days and then the Soviet Army intervened. As if that were not enough, in December 1988 there was an enormous earthquake, which killed 25,000 people in what was then called Leninakan and is now Gyumri.

That period saw increasing tension along the borders, including in January 1990 an air and rail blockade by the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic, another pogrom, and finally Gorbachev declaring a state of emergency. There was fighting throughout the Azeri cities, and then, in spring 1991, Operation Ring, in which Ayas Mutalibov—the Azerbaijani leader, who was seen at the time as one of the new wave of non-communist leaders that included Yeltsin, who had just been elected in Russia, and Levon Ter-Petrossian in Armenia—launched a military offensive against Armenians in the Shahumyan area, with a view to ethnically cleansing the area. That is when the diaspora, personified in some ways by Monte Melkonian, who was one of the great leaders, realised that it had to support ethnic Armenians in their homeland.

Gorbachev resigned in December 1991. That allowed the old Soviet Union to collapse in the south Caucasus region. Azerbaijan voted to rescind the autonomous oblast status of Nagorno-Karabakh. The Armenians did the same and declared independence on 6 January 1992.

Then the war started, and it was a war. There was a complete imbalance between the two armies. Together, Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia had 170 tanks and 360 armoured personnel carriers, but no fighter aircraft. The Azeris had 300 tanks, the same number of APCs and, crucially, 170 fighter aircraft. They were helicopter gunships—the old Mil Mi-24s that were left over from the Russian retreat. Throughout this sad and sorry story, almost all the weapons, armaments, ordnance and artillery pieces were left by the retreating Russians. It was like there was a vast warehouse of weaponry throughout the south Caucasus—an enormous bonfire waiting for the spark.

There were appalling scenes throughout the war. There were accusations of atrocities on both sides, many of which have been investigated. In May 1992, the war took a crucial turn when the Armenians captured the headland or redoubt of the Azerbaijan army in the area that most people now know as Shushi, but which at that time was called Shusha. At that time, much of the fighting was being done by Chechens, who were fighting for jihad. Their leader, Shamil Basayev, referred to the soldiers of the so-called Dashnak battalion, which is also known as the Dashnaktsutyun or the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, as the only people who had ever defeated him.

I could describe the war further, but that is not really the point of this debate. Towards the end of the war, in January 1994, even by the horrific standards of modern warfare, things had got to an almost unbearably painful phase. Azerbaijan extended the call-up to boys of 16. The war entered what objective, independent observers call the “human wave” phase. Andrei Sakharov, who is often quoted in this Chamber, said at the time:

“For Azerbaijan the issue of Karabakh is a matter of ambition, for the Armenians of Karabakh, it is a matter of life or death”.

The peace process started. In 1994, it was recognised that it was, in effect, a frozen conflict. The Minsk group, with its three co-chairs, who are currently Igor Popov from the Russian Federation, Jacques Faure from France and James Warlick of the USA, is working as hard as it can to move matters forward. I hope and believe that it is doing so with the support, knowledge and understanding of Her Majesty’s Government. The co-chairs visited Baku and Yerevan just this month.

However, matters along the line of contact are not good. Twenty soldiers were killed along the ceasefire line in 2013, despite the existence of the ceasefire. There were nearly 200 ceasefire violations between 2 and 8 February of this year. Often, the violations involve people firing across the border, including snipers, but there are also more violent incidents. The line of contact is porous and is coming under increased pressure.

People will be asking themselves the question, as I would be if I were listening to this debate, “What can we do?” Every Member of Parliament is inundated by letters saying, “Please put pressure on country X or nation Y and do something about it.” What can we do in this case? I think that we have a crucial role to play. There is not a massive amount of trade between the United Kingdom and Armenia. Fewer than 10 UK firms are active in Armenia. We gave Armenia £882,000 in aid last year. I pay credit to our remarkable joint ambassadors in Yerevan, Kathy Leach and Jonathan Aves, who work extraordinarily hard to progress British trade interests in the area. However, we could do much more. By contrast, Azerbaijan was given £1,335,000 in aid over the same period, and we have very close trade links. The United Kingdom is actually the 15th largest trade partner of Azerbaijan, and the major role of BP in oil extraction, refining and marketing cannot be underestimated.

[Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that I am the Prime Minister’s trade envoy to Azerbaijan. Our trading links go much further than that, and indeed, we are by far the biggest investor in Azerbaijan through BP and other companies in that sector. The country is increasingly important to the British economy, and I hope he will reflect that in his comments.

[Stephen Pound]

I am grateful, and I place on record my appreciation for the hon. Gentleman and the work he is undertaking in that area. To show how important that link is, when President Ilham Aliyev made critical comments fairly recently—I think it was on 17 October 2012—in connection with British Petroleum’s output from the Azeri–Chirag–Guneshli field, our ambassador to Azerbaijan, Peter Bateman, said:

“I shall be calling on BP in London next week to find out what more, if anything, we can do to help”.

That shows a remarkable degree of association with the British Government, and of involvement at a very high level. Indeed, the FCO was vital in negotiating what was widely called the “contract of the century”, which was signed in Azerbaijan in 1994. Co-operation was so close that when we first posted ambassadorial staff to the Republic of Azerbaijan they were located in BP’s offices in Baku. The relationship continues and prospers. In fact, the Foreign Secretary attended the signing ceremony for the final investment decision on the Shah Deniz 2 project in Baku.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

The Foreign Secretary told me in response to a parliamentary question that he raised human rights issues on that visit. Does my hon. Friend know, and will he press the Minister on whether the Foreign Secretary also raised the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh?

[Stephen Pound]

Like many Members, I was in the Chamber for the debate that my hon. Friend initiated on that issue, but I think, with respect, that the Minister may be a more appropriate person to respond. I am not entirely privy to every detail of the negotiations and discussions, but I certainly recall the debate on this important issue.

There are some signs of movement. Just this week, the United States ambassador to Azerbaijan, Richard Morningstar, issued a statement to say that the United States is being even more active in resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict than in the past. He said:

“I can understand the frustration of the Azerbaijani people about the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. We are committed to trying to bring about resolution. It is a good thing that presidents met in November.”

There is some movement. This week, the co-chairs of the OSCE Minsk group have spoken of their hope for moving forward on this issue, particularly because of the additional truce that was agreed before the winter games in Sochi.

Human rights issues in Azerbaijan are probably not the subject of this debate, but I am looking to get some movement to allow some peace to return to a deeply troubled part of the world. This may be commonplace and obvious, and it may almost be otiose for me to say it, but it is one of the great tragedies that some of the most beautiful parts of the world are the places that are most troubled. One thinks of parts of central Africa, East Timor, and so many countries of great heart-stopping beauty. Anyone who has been to Nagorno-Karabakh—as I know many Members of the House have—will never forget those great sweeping, soaring mountains, those deep, eye-stretching valleys, and the churches going back nearly 2,000 years, with distinctive Armenian crosses everywhere one looks. We need to do something to bring back that peace.

In addition, we are approaching the anniversary of the great Armenian genocide of 1915. If ever there was a time when this House could look to Armenia with support, friendship and solidarity, it is as we approach this anniversary. The Member for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock) is not in the Chamber, but I notified him that I was likely to mention his name. Every time we have discussed the Armenian genocide and the current situation, he has chosen to use comments such as “the so-called genocide” and say how he disapproves of any democratic opposition in Azerbaijan. He never misses an opportunity to defend President Aliyev. That is a shame, because I would have thought that if there is one thing the House can agree on it is that a genocide of the most horrendous proportions did take place in Anatolia, Van and what was then called western Armenia. The 1915 genocide was the third genocide and was particularly horrendous. Would it not be a good thing if we were to lend our support, put our shoulder to the wheel, and try to move Minsk forward in time for the commemorations of this appalling genocide?

Some would say, “Can we not put this matter behind us?” I am not Armenian and I am not Azeri. I do not have a drop of blood of either of those nations in my veins. However, I cannot help but note that even though much of what we talked about this evening appears to be in the past, it is a past that still resonates.

Many people will know the situation that occurred on 18 February 2004. Extraordinarily, soldiers from Azerbaijan and Armenia were present at a NATO partnership for peace activity in Budapest. One Azerbaijani soldier, Ramil Safarov, decided to buy an axe and take the head off an Armenian soldier, Gurgen Markarian. This happened in Hungary in 2004. This is not ancient history; this is recent history. At the time, the Azerbaijan human rights commissioner said that Safarov must become an example of patriotism for Azerbaijani youth and the National Democratic party awarded him the man of the year award in 2005. When the Hungarians released Ramil Safarov, he returned to Azerbaijan to be promoted to the rank of major. He received eight years back pay and was given accommodation. It is that raw and it is that recent. My point is that these emotions simply cannot be allowed to fester. When we have a feeling of animosity between two peoples that leads to a fellow soldier on a NATO joint exercise decapitating another soldier, that is something intensely felt and we must be able to somehow push that forward and improve the situation.

The British Government cannot demand action, but what we can do is to show our concern. I know the Minister and respect him, as do most in the House. We have an opportunity to put down a marker: to say it was an awful, bloody and terrible war, but that it finished 20 years ago. Let us finally end this awful conflict, and allow two nations to emerge into the sunshine to live in peace. Then we can talk about human rights, but at least let us talk without the sound of gunfire, without the smell of cordite and without the chill anticipation of death.