Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 6th July 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Deech (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I shall start by speaking to Amendment 19 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Moylan and Lord Mancroft, and myself. It is designed to secure medical research and the UK’s world-leading place in it, to ensure that animal activists cannot interfere with future or past research, and to guarantee a safe environment for our researchers. More than that, Amendment 19 is designed to protect human welfare and sentience.

Now, more than ever, we owe a huge debt of gratitude to our scientific researchers who have saved thousands of lives and given peace of mind to British people and people around the world, first in the development of the Covid vaccine, although I will give more examples. I live in Oxford and went straight to the top when investigating the necessity for this amendment and the damage that might be caused if it is not passed. Dame Sarah Gilbert, the developer of the AstraZeneca vaccine, has said that she relied on research using non-human primates, ferrets and Syrian hamsters. How could any committee dare to start pontificating about what research may or may not be carried out using animals in the face of what has so recently been achieved?

Given the age demographics of this House, it is worth highlighting the recent FDA approval for Aduhelm, the first new treatment for Alzheimer’s in more than 20 years and the first therapy to target the fundamental pathophysiology of the disease. A key researcher in this, and winner of the Breakthrough Prize and the Brain Prize, is John Hardy of University College London. It took more than 20 years of research, largely involving work on genetically modified mice, to reveal what leads to cell death and plaque formation in the human brain. According to Sir Colin Blakemore, it is inconceivable that the background knowledge for the development of treatments could have been gained without animal research.

Researchers are also using monkeys for a wide range of disorders and the Covid vaccine. Researchers use them to test the safety of vaccine compounds, and to discover how the virus works inside the body and whether it can reinfect people who have already recovered from the virus. It is vital that such research should be protected. While their use in Europe is very limited, China has recognised the opportunity that this gives Chinese researchers and huge amounts of money have been poured into primate facilities for research in China.

Sadly, some animal rights organisations have disparaged the biomedical research process during the past year. They have spread misinformation, and even seem to prefer people to die rather than study animals. The use of animals in experiments and testing is highly regulated in the UK under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, which adopts the principles of the three Rs: replacement, reduction and refinement. Let us celebrate the wonderful work done here in the UK to save lives by guaranteeing through this amendment, and by a statement from the Minister, that nothing will be considered or done to impede that research.

Turning to Amendments 31 and 35, I fully support the remarks of my noble and learned friend Lord Etherton. These amendments are designed to restore to the remit of the committee to be established by the Bill the balance that used to be reflected in European law. The committee will have retrospective powers—that is, it can look back over past animal issues and reopen them. If the committee were to raise issues with Jewish methods of killing animals, the Secretary of State would have to lay a response to those views before Parliament. The Government have in the past stated their commitment to protecting that custom, but the Bill could undermine that. The proposers need the Government’s assurance in this debate that, were such a situation to arise, they would guarantee their commitments to religious communities. In saying this, I support the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh.

There are arguments about the least cruel method of putting animals to death. The Jewish way, after much consideration, is regarded as effective because it causes an immediate loss of cerebral perfusion. Stunning, however, is driven by speed and commercial utility and goes wrong in many more millions of cases of animal deaths than ever take place in Jewish killing.

Despite the requirement in European law on balance, the European Court of Justice last year upheld a Belgian ban on Jewish and Muslim practices of slaughter without stunning. The argument that stunning is less injurious than non-stunning does not hold water. We should not apply double standards. The Food Standards Agency survey of 2017 estimated that hundreds of millions of animals were killed without effective stunning; gassing, in particular, causes great distress to animals killed that way. The European Food Safety Authority reported that, in the most recent count, 180 million chickens and other poultry were killed using insufficient electric charge. We do not kill our animals with great attention to their welfare, leaving aside the Jewish and Muslim methods. Rabbits’ necks are broken and fish starved and suffocated. We even mistreat our pets, breeding them to a lifetime of ill health and depriving them of their natural habitats. If the new committee in the Bill is to do any good, it should concern itself with making sure that slaughter methods as they exist are carried out as they should be and existing welfare standards are enforced.

Will the Minister accept these amendments and ensure that Jewish slaughter practices are protected? Not to do so would be seen as an unwillingness to make a home for those elements of the Jewish community —and the Muslim community—to whom this is of major importance.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am speaking to Amendments 15, 39 and 45 in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville—I thank her for her support—and Amendment 47 in the name of my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone, to which I have added my name. I will make some comments on other amendments in the group.

Amendment 15 provides the criteria for which policies are in the remit of the committee and for the committee to report on those policies while they are being formulated, while keeping the discretionary power for the committee to look at any other policies. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, said, if we do not do that, the remit will become far too wide to be manageable. The current text of Clause 2 allows the committee to prepare reports on any government policy that is being or has been formulated or implemented. While I welcome that wide scope, we need some organisation of activity. Without it, in the face of the overwhelming range of government policy, the committee may well struggle to take a strategic and prospective approach to its work.

Our amendment would answer concerns raised by a number of noble Lords about how the committee would cope with the potential amount of work. The policies that the Government should be looking at are ones that should be reasonably expected to have a significant effect on the welfare of animals, judged by the duration and severity of effects and the number of animals affected. Beyond those mandatory reports on policies within its remit, the committee could retain the freedom to report on any other policy that it felt might have an impact on the welfare of animals as sentient beings.

Crucially, our amendment would also allow the committee’s reports to contain recommendations on how the policy could be made to have a positive effect on the welfare of animals as sentient beings. At Second Reading, the Minister suggested that the committee would be able to

“encourage policymakers to think about the positive improvements that they can make to animal welfare—not just minimising adverse effects”.—[Official Report, 16/6/21; col. 1945.]

We very much welcome these remarks, but the text of the Bill needs to be brought into line with them, as Clause 2 currently specifies “adverse” effects being the subject of committee reports. Given that the Government believe, as we do, that the committee should have the freedom to consider how policies could enhance animal welfare, we hope that the Minister will recognise that our amendment would resolve this issue.

Amendment 39 is also designed to help to structure the way in which the committee would consider government policy with regard to animal sentience in a straightforward way by putting a duty on Ministers to inform the committee in a timely manner of relevant policy development. As I said at Second Reading, it is paramount that the committee can look at policies right across government. The Bill currently creates only a discretionary duty for the animal sentience committee to review whether a government policy has had appropriate regard to the welfare of sentient animals. There should be a mandate with a clear duty for a review of all policies that fall within well-defined criteria. A duty on Ministers to inform the committee would help to achieve that outcome.

Amendment 45 proposes a new clause that is essential to ensure that the Bill provides a functional replacement to the sentience duty that applied in law when the UK was a member of the European Union. We have heard a lot today from noble Lords about Article 13 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and its intertwined elements—recognition of animals as sentient beings and a duty to pay “full regard” to animal sentience in formulating and implementing policy. Although it was limited to certain areas of policy, Article 13 imposed a direct legal obligation on the EU and its member states to pay full regard to animal sentience. It was a direct responsibility on decision-makers, in the form of government Ministers.

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[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I shall speak first to Amendments 5 and 14, which are in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. The noble Baroness laid out Amendment 5 quite clearly. It would ensure that the committee benefited from a diversity of expertise, including, for example, veterinary science, agricultural science and ethical review.

It is essential that such a wide range of informed viewpoints informs the work of the animal sentience committee, and this diversity needs to be guaranteed in the Bill. Under the current text, future Secretaries of State will have full discretion to appoint committee members. Our concern is that that could enable a very narrow committee which could be dominated by one industry or sector. I note that other noble Lords have tabled amendments that also consider the expertise of the committee’s membership, so there is clearly much interest in getting it right—noble Lords have talked about it this afternoon. The committee needs to be able to draw on a real diversity of knowledge so that it can give properly balanced consideration to animal sentience issues across the whole scope of government policy.

Our amendment also lays out further detail on the make-up of the committee and stipulates the appointment of a chair. It is very important to have a chair who is both independent and respected within government and further afield. If you have that, the committee will be listened to with real respect in all the different areas that it will look at. As the noble Baroness said, this will help make it much more effective in its work.

Amendment 14 is designed to ensure that the animal sentience committee is adequately resourced; several noble Lords have talked about resourcing. By that, we mean staffing, accommodation and any other necessary resources to fulfil the tasks the Bill places on it. A small secretariat and other facilities are essential to committee functioning, and should not place an undue burden on public funds. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, said that the Bill is very thin in this area, and I agree. Much of her Amendment 13 covers similar ground. We need to look at this very carefully.

I jotted down some examples of previous annual costs for a committee in Defra. There is quite of range of costs that committees can incur to government. The former Farm Animal Welfare Committee operated on a similar basis as is proposed for the animal sentience committee. It required less than £300,000 a year in funding. Clearly, this committee will have a much broader remit, but to put that in context, a 2016 Cabinet Office review found that 141 bodies advising government typically each had an annual budget of between £100,000 and £1 million. That is a hugely broad range. Considering that a number of noble Lords have expressed concern that resourcing needs to be properly done, I should be interested to know what work has been done on the resourcing that may be required and whether the Minister can yet clarify what he believes will be adequate for the committee to carry out its work effectively. It is vital that appropriate resourcing is made available. I also support the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, in hoping that this is without cuts to any other department.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lady Fookes, have tabled Amendments 6 and 62, which would also secure a welcome diversity of expertise and an independent chair, as well as ensuring that the committee received early notice of any policy that could have an adverse effect on the welfare of animals as sentient beings. The noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, is right to ask for more detail in this area.

As we have heard, Amendment 2, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, suggests merging the Bill’s animal sentience committee with the existing Animal Welfare Committee. We would support what the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, said about this. We do not believe it is a practical suggestion, as the Animal Welfare Committee and animal sentience committee will have very different roles.

The Animal Welfare Committee provides scientific advice when asked to by Defra and works only with that department, primarily on farm animal and welfare issues. It is fundamentally different from what is proposed for the animal sentience committee, which will proactively review government policy decisions across all departments. It will also have the power to choose which policies to review and a scope that covers companion animals, farm animals and wild animals. Merging these two, very different committees into one would be an error and reduce the effectiveness of both, so we cannot support this amendment. However, we need clarity on how the relationship between the committees will work.

I conclude by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, for recognising some merit in my Amendment 5, but I clarify for noble Lords that animal welfare science is a reality. You can study for a degree in animal welfare science at a number of universities—for example, Glasgow and Winchester—and the Royal Veterinary College has an animal welfare science and ethics group which specifically researches in the fields of animal welfare, animal behaviour, veterinary ethics and law. I hope that clarifies that.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their amendments and hope to provide some reassurance and clarity. I start with Amendment 2, in the name of my noble friend Lord Forsyth, who, as my noble friend Lord Randall reminded us, referred to himself as an “extinct volcano”. Volcanologists will probably warn of an eruption if I do not achieve some degree of reassurance.

The first reassurance I will give my noble friend is that, when I arrived as a Minister in Defra in 2010, we had inherited 92 arm’s-length bodies, which we reduced to 33. It was a brutal process, but we got it about right. It shows a desire for simplicity, and direct accountability to Parliament is something I hold dear.

My noble friend Lord Forsyth has concerns about the animal sentience committee’s relationship with the Animal Welfare Committee, which have also been articulated by other noble Lords. I emphasise that the two committees have important roles and different remits. The Animal Welfare Committee provides substantive policy advice on request to Defra, as well as to the Scottish and Welsh Governments. By contrast, the animal sentience committee will review and scrutinise the Government’s policy-making and, in doing so, facilitate Parliament’s scrutiny of the Government. It would be rare for the two committees to address precisely the same questions in the normal course of their work, nor do we want to prevent them delivering their distinct roles.

The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, referred to the committee possibly becoming a runaway horse. In that unlikely event, it would be reined in. There will be performance reviews of the committee and, if it is ineffective, action will be taken to change its membership.

Amendment 11, also in the name of my noble friend, would have the structure and make-up of the animal sentience committee established by regulations or otherwise subject to parliamentary approval. My noble friend raises an important point, which is that the establishment of the committee should be a transparent and collaborative process. I have already committed to sharing draft terms of reference for the committee before this Bill returns to the House on Report. I would, however, be wary of defining the terms of reference and the membership of the committee too rigidly in statute.

This committee is an entirely new entity with a new and specific remit and, to some extent, its first steps will involve learning and refining how it wishes to operate and what expertise it requires. Normal practice with such committees, in line with Cabinet Office guidance, is that they are funded from within a departmental budget. We are clear that the committee should be made up of members who collectively have the appropriate expertise to enable the committee to perform its role. The code on public appointments provides a robust framework for appointments to the committee.

However important the Bill and the committee it establishes, the fact is that parliamentary time is limited and must be used to best effect. Discussing the substance of the reports, where noble Lords and honourable Members in the other place wish to do so, will be far more illuminating than debates on, say, the precise nature of the committee’s composition.

The animal sentience committee will be a committee of experts that publishes reports. It will not make policy decisions, nor will it be a delivery body. It therefore lacks the sorts of responsibilities described in the Public Bodies Handbook that might warrant use of parliamentary time to oversee the committee’s membership and internal processes. Although I would not wish to place the terms of reference in statute, I reiterate my commitment to share them in draft for your Lordships’ consideration, ahead of Report.

Looking around this Room, I see people who have great experience of legislating down the years from within the Government, the Executive, and the legislature and it is entirely right that people in my position are pushed as far as they can be to give details. But to those of us who have been in government, I say that we also want the flexibility to make sure that what we are creating here works. Sometimes, if we are too rigid in our legislation we make that more difficult to the point whereby it could become ineffective and a point of continuing debate. I want to give flexibility to the new committee and future Ministers to create something that is not only effective but can be held to account for what they do.

I turn to my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s last amendment in the group, Amendment 40, concerning the work programme and resourcing of the committee. It will be comprised of experts. It is they who will be best placed to decide what the committee’s priorities should be, although they can of course consult others. I can reassure my noble friend that the annual work plan of the committee will be made publicly available. This will ensure that its priorities and approach are fully transparent. It is right that the committee should have the freedom to set its own agenda. Committee members are the experts on sentience and will be able to offer informed views that Ministers can consider alongside other important social, environmental, cultural or economic issues.

Both my noble friend Lord Forsyth and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, in her Amendment 14, have rightly highlighted the need to furnish the committee with the appropriate resources to perform its function. I can confirm that we shall do so. There will be a dedicated secretariat.

I turn to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and her Amendments 6 and 62, with which I will consider the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, Amendment 5, all concerning the membership and operation of the animal sentience committee. The committee has a specific, well-defined function set out in the Bill. It is there to provide assurance that the Government are having all due regard to the effects of policy decisions on animal welfare. The ultimate objective of the committee is to raise the bar on how animal welfare implications are considered as policy across government, and how that is made and implemented. This task demands that the committee’s members have a breadth of expertise and experience.

The committee will, of course, not exist in isolation. I hope it reassures a number of noble Lords that the committee will be able to consult other able external specialists as required. If, for example, the committee felt that it wanted to reach out to a government advisory body such as the Animal Health and Welfare Board, it would be free to do so. We want to ensure that there are high-quality applicants for vacancies on the committee, and we want to find the very best people for the role. We also want to future-proof the committee as far as possible. As our scientific understanding of sentience develops, so too could the appropriate balance of expertise. That is crucial. If we restrict the membership of the committee to just a few types of people, that may not be appropriate in the future.

I turn to some of the other suggestions made by the noble Baroness. I can assure her that the Secretary of State will appoint no MPs to the committee. I clearly take the point of my noble friend Lord Caithness that there are Members of this House who have or might have in future the kind of expertise we are looking for, but I want to keep politics out of it. We politicians are not always known for our strict impartiality. We will have to find other means to contribute to the animal welfare cause. However, as we all know, there are Members of this House who are not affiliated to any political party.

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[Lord Carrington (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interests as a farmer, as set out in the register. My remarks on the Bill are as a farmer, particularly as a livestock farmer. I support Amendment 10 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, but my remarks apply also to other amendments to Clause 1, covering the issue of the membership of the animal sentience committee.

It is the vagary of intention, purpose and operation of the Bill that causes worry among those who deal with animals in the course of either work or play—or any number of things in between. The farming sector in particular is concerned by this lack of detail. In this situation, the best assurance that can be provided is a balanced and knowledgeable committee that can properly and impartially adjudicate on the issues before it.

To illustrate my point, the following concerns have been highlighted but not thoroughly resolved: the lack of definition of animal sentience, respect of religious and local customs, distinction between wild and tame animals, control of predators, the agenda of the animal rights lobby, the position on the welfare of foreign animal imports—dead or alive—and consideration of public interest. I could go on. Others have spoken and will speak eloquently on all those points, but the list explains why the composition of the committee is so important. Reassurance is required.

Most importantly, it should be specified, as in Amendment 10, that there should be at least one of the following: the commercial livestock farmer, the vet and someone with knowledge of slaughterhouses. I add to that a representative from the food service and retail sector. In order to ensure a representative range of expertise and insight and to enable informed policy oversight, the committee must include those with practical animal husbandry experience in the agricultural sector. Farmers are involved in the day-to-day care of livestock and have a practical understanding of their animals. It is therefore vital that a proportionate number of members of the committee has this background and expertise in order to provide a practical insight into how livestock husbandry can support improvements.

In other amendments, there are lists of potential membership qualifications, such as scientific knowledge, expertise in animal behaviour and neurophysiology, or experience in fishing, game shooting, animal welfare, ethics, law and public administration. A committee with all these will agree on nothing, particularly if it is full of scientists and lawyers, who will even argue about what is black and what is white. Add to this a failure to define “sentience”, and we end up with the ingredients of indecision and worse. The Minister needs to add some clarity on all these issues and to tell us why there is the need for a learning period—how long will this be?

These decisions affect real people and real livelihoods; they are not academic. I therefore request that the Minister clarify the membership of the committee as a matter of urgency and to ensure that it is composed of people with practical knowledge and, most of all, common sense.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The amendments in this small group look particularly at the make-up of the committee’s membership, some of which align with our Amendments 5 and 14, which we have previously debated.

Amendment 4, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, and the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, provides that the composition of the committee and its terms of reference must be set out in regulations and approved by both Houses. It is clear that the committee’s composition and terms of reference are considered extremely important by noble Lords, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said, we have covered this in the previous debate, so I shall move on.

Amendment 9, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, would provide that a committee member’s term may not be longer than three years and may not be renewed after the first term. As the noble Lord explained in the explanatory statement to his amendment, this is to ensure that the committee

“benefits from fresh knowledge and new perspectives”.

We have some sympathy with that proposal and agree with the noble Lord that the term should be no longer than three years, but we believe that there may be circumstances where it would be helpful to reappoint a member for a further term of office if that was considered appropriate.

Amendment 10, in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, provides that the committee’s membership must include, among others, a veterinary surgeon, a farmer or person with knowledge of livestock production and land management, and a person with knowledge of slaughterhouses. On this amendment and the other amendments we have looked at about who should be on the committee, I take the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, that we need practical experience—that is important—but although we have talked about Defra legislation, we need to remember that the committee will be looking right across government. It will also need people who have experience in how to manage that and what needs to be looked at. I am beginning to think that we are going to have the largest committee ever created if we have all these people on it. The Minister needs to take away the debate that we have had on both this group of amendments and the previous one and think about how we can practicably move forward to ensure that the committee has the membership it needs but is also flexible enough to cover all the work that it will need to do.

Amendment 8, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, would require 50% of the committee to have had recent commercial experience of farming or managing game or fish stocks. I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, said that it should not be interpreted as stacking the committee, but we need to make sure that we do not end up with a committee with a bias towards one group—the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, said that it was important that we make sure that we do not have an imbalance one way or another. We need recommendations that come from a diversity of viewpoints and proper knowledge bases. It is absolutely right that we look at all these membership criteria, but we need to think about where we are going, what we want the committee to achieve and what its priorities will be. We need more clarity about its focus; otherwise, we will have membership of the committee from everything under the sun. On that basis, I will hand over to the Minister to take that headache away.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Baroness very eloquently makes the point I was going to make. I have clearly had representations from a lot of parliamentarians and different interest groups, saying that they must be represented or that this or another interest should be represented on the group and I start wondering whether the Albert Hall will be big enough to contain this committee.

Of course, I would have to be a Minister of very little brain if I did not have a view on the sort of people I think should be on the committee. The problem is that if I start listing them to the Committee now, although it would have the virtue of giving some of the clarity that certain noble Lords seek, it could also constrain the creation of a committee that, as the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, and others have said, should contain practical experience and common sense. I entirely agree with him on that.

I take the point made eloquently by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, that the committee should not contain representatives of pressure groups, particular groups who are obsessed with one narrow field of animal welfare. If I, or the Bill, were to constrain the membership of the committee so that a particular interest had to be represented, if that individual was off sick or had not been reappointed following the end of their term, and the committee made a decision in that particular area of expertise, noble Lords can see that this would create opportunities for legal challenge. I am not going to satisfy the Committee because I cannot give clarity on the type of people that we want to see on the committee. I will try to give the reassurance that I know what noble Lords are thinking and I hope that we can achieve a committee that has balance, practical experience and common sense.

I will try to address in more detail some of the points that have been made and I apologise if I slightly repeat myself; I will try not to. My noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean proposed Amendment 4, suggesting regulations that the animal sentience committee might adhere to. Although I would not wish to place the terms of reference in statute, I reiterate my commitment to share them in draft ahead of Report for your Lordships’ consideration.

This committee is an entirely new entity with a new and specific remit and to some extent, its first steps will, as I have said before, involve learning and refining. We are clear the committee should be made of members who collectively have the appropriate expertise to enable it to perform its role. I refer noble Lords to the Governance Code on Public Appointments, which provides the framework from which we will be operating. As I have said, it will be a committee of experts who publish reports. It will not make policy. It therefore lacks the sort of responsibility described in the Public Bodies Handbook that might warrant parliamentary time to oversee its membership and internal processes.

I will take together Amendments 8 and 9 in the name of my noble friend Lord Moylan with Amendment 10 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering. I think we have covered membership. It is not the role of the committee to consider the interests of those who work with animals or to identify an appropriate balance between their interests and animal welfare. That is for Ministers to weigh up and decide. That is why I take this opportunity to dispel any notion that a sector could find itself at a disadvantage if it is not physically represented on the committee. That would be a misunderstanding of the committee’s role and how it will interact with Ministers. It takes a wealth of knowledge and experience to understand the implications of central government policy on particular aspects of animal welfare, more than any one person or any one group of people could ever possess. There is, of course, a practical limit to the size of the committee so, naturally, we expect that that it will seek the views of other specialists who exist outside the committee to assist in its understanding of specific issues.

We are in the process of gathering views on the best range of expertise the committee can have to support it in its specific remit. We will also want to consult its chair. I would most certainly welcome contributions from your Lordships, but again I caution against creating a precise list in the Bill.

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That document was misleading, and the mainstream charities and organisations should be aware of being used by those with a very different agenda, as should we in Parliament. The membership of this committee must be independent of pressure groups, from whichever side they come.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

Amendment 12, which would ban anyone from the committee if they had involvement with animal rights groups, seems to come from the viewpoint that the Bill and the committee that it establishes will be hijacked by a radical animal rights agenda.

A commitment to animal welfare requires us to treat animals humanely, compassionately and properly. To treat animals properly, we must factor in the key facts about them, including the sentience that we know they possess. I am sure the Minister will be able to reassure noble Lords that the membership and remit of the committee will be based on expertise, including from those with animal welfare expertise and experience, but will also use scientific analysis and the right knowledge when required. We have discussed this point in great detail, and I am sure the Minister will be able to reassure us on it.

Amendment 43, also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, would require a Minister responding to a report by the animal sentience committee to include the views of other expert committees, such as the Animal Welfare Committee. We certainly agree that the committee should consider the views of other experts, be they committees or independent experts. I would be interested to hear from the Minister whether he is looking at that as useful in the setting up of the committee. If that is the case, how will that relationship be developed? We have discussed the relationship between the Animal Welfare Committee and the animal sentience committee. How will the joined-up thinking come forward from other expert committees as well?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am grateful to noble Lords and to my noble friend Lord Mancroft for his Amendments 12 and 43. There is much I could say that would repeat what I said on earlier groups about the make-up of the committee, but I am grateful to him and others for highlighting an important consideration for Ministers as and when the Bill reaches the statute book. As my noble friend said, it is not just about who we put on the committee but about who we do not. I am clear that we want people who will take a collegiate view and who are not there to represent some narrow sectoral or even extreme point of view. The committee will look at issues such as the eating of meat and how we get meat from field to fork. The process of rearing stock and taking it to slaughter is something that we want to make sure we get absolutely right. If somebody’s opinion about that is clouded by an extreme view that the whole process is wrong, it will not be an effectively functioning committee with that individual in place, so I totally hear what has been said.

I could repeat all I said before about not wanting to constrain things by putting details about what sort of people we want to do this in the Bill. We want this to be an expert committee of professionals who really good people will want to work with. If they feel that the committee is being hijacked by extremists or, indeed, one sectoral view, it will not be working by the terms in which, I hope, it will be put on the statute book by Parliament.

I have already spoken about the very important points made about how the committee will work with other organisations, not least the Animal Welfare Committee. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, made an important point. There will undoubtedly be scope for a productive and mutually beneficial relationship between the two organisations and the broad principles of this will be outlined in the animal sentience committee’s terms of reference.

Indeed, the animal sentience committee may wish to draw on the expertise of other bodies and experts where it sees fit. The Bill places no limits on this. It will then be for the committees to decide where and how it would be most productive to work together within that framework. This might not always result in outputs so reassuringly concrete as the report on reports envisaged by this amendment. The freedom to co-operate and to inform each other’s thinking, where useful, is there.

I could go into more detail. We may tease out aspects of the points raised by noble Lords in subsequent questions, but I hope my noble friend will be content to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

I join my noble friend Lady McIntosh in opposing this clause standing part, because any Conservative—and, I think, any sensible parliamentarian and the Minister—should be concerned about setting up committees, per se. We have a proliferation of committees everywhere and, here we are, creating yet another one. If this committee were doing something uniquely special that was not being done by anybody else, it might have more to say for itself, but we already have the Animal Welfare Committee. Does my noble friend not consider it possible to amalgamate the activities of both committees, so that we do not end up with two doing similar things, but with one?

As my noble friend Lord Mancroft said, there could easily be conflict between the two committees anyway. Which advice would the Government take if the advice between the two varied? This is a recipe for chaos. To constantly set up committees is not the right way to run government. As my noble friend said, they develop a life of their own, get bigger and bigger, and more officious and difficult. This is not the way to deal with problems of cruelty to animals. We all want to see people punished for being cruel to animals, and I do not think an animal sentience committee is the way forward at all. I would like to see this clause voted down and the whole idea of an animal sentience committee dismissed. We already have a committee dealing with this and should not have two, because that is a recipe for chaos.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I would like to follow those last comments from the noble Lord. Earlier, we discussed the difference between the animal sentience committee, the Animal Welfare Committee and other committees. The sentience committee is not being set up as just an advisory committee, as the Animal Welfare Committee is. It is designed to have a different role and remit, and will need different expertise to the Animal Welfare Committee. It has its own important role to play in something that is strongly supported by the general public.

It is important for the Minister to hear that noble Lords are concerned by the lack of detail in Clause 1. People feel that the Bill needs improvement, and there have been many issues raised during the debate. From my perspective, more clarity and focus are needed, if it is to achieve what the Bill intends and answer many noble Lords’ concerns. We do not support voting to remove Clause 1 from the Bill, but there is work to do in the time between now and Report. I urge the Minister to work across parties to look at how we can improve the Bill and address many of the concerns that have been raised.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 16th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, this is an important Bill, and I thank all those who have spoken in the debate today. We have had a number of interesting and strong views expressed.

Since leaving the European Union, we no longer have legislation that recognises animals as sentient beings, so we strongly welcome the Bill and the opportunities that it provides. The formal legal recognition of animal sentience sends a clear message that we are committed as a country to protecting the welfare of animals, but for this to be meaningful, any commitment on paper must be followed up in practice.

We have already heard that the Bill is vague in many respects, so the challenge for this House is to make sure the Bill delivers on what it is promising. As we have heard, it has been a long time coming. Other noble Lords have spoken about the delays, which go back to November 2017, when the Government rejected a proposal to carry the Lisbon treaty into post-Brexit policy. But this issue has had immense public interest, with consultation and amendments in both Houses—I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Trees, for his role in this. There was previously a widely-criticised draft government Bill—if the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, would like to see a badly drafted Bill, I recommend that he takes a look at it—and a number of false starts along the way.

That is why it is now vital that we grasp the opportunity before us to ensure that this legislation leaves the House a better Bill than when it arrived. We believe that some aspects are particularly welcome: that the Bill covers all departments and that, by implication, it covers wild animals as well as those under the control of man, as wild animals should also be protected from harm by man.

The noble Lord, Lord Trees, referred to Dr Mike Radford of the University of Aberdeen, and I wanted to mention what he said, because he expressed clearly one of our key concerns. In commenting on the Bill, he said:

“there’s the potential – but, as presently drafted, no certainty – for Ministers to be held effectively to account”.

It is that certainty that we will be looking for through debates on and amendments to the Bill. A number of noble Lords have raised concerns that we on this side of the House share: for example, my noble friend Lady Young and the noble Baronesses, Lady Fookes, Lady Jones and Lady Bakewell.

The Government say that the Bill improves on the Lisbon treaty, and it does create an animal sentience committee and requires the Government to respond to it, which creates additional accountability. But it does not place a direct duty on Ministers, entrusting instead much of the responsibility for outcomes to the committee. If this Bill is to be effective in holding Ministers to account, we need to ensure that the animal sentience committee has teeth and not just symbolic value. The UK Centre for Animal Law has called the Bill “a job part done”, raising concerns about its proposed design. We have heard of the huge lack of detail and ambiguity on its membership, resourcing, independence, and accountability.

I ask the Minister, as others have done today: who will serve on the committee? How often will it publish reports?

Sentience is the capacity to have positive or negative experiences. The Minister said earlier that the Government have “all due regard” to an adverse effect on the welfare of animals as sentient beings, but can and should the committee reports also recommend policy that brings about positive impacts on animals as well as addressing negative impacts? How will the duty of the Secretary of State to issue a response provide the kind of governmental engagement with animal welfare concerns that is necessary?

We have heard that the Bill currently provides for Ministers to have to respond to a report within three months with a written statement. Do we feel that this is enough? Will this make a difference, or will it mean that a Minister can simply note what the committee has said and change nothing?

We will be seeking guarantees that the Government will consult on membership; that there will be an open, transparent recruitment process; that wide-ranging expertise will be ensured; and that the committee will have genuine independence and not be incorporated as a sub-committee of the Animal Welfare Committee, as we believe this could potentially damage its ability to hold the Government to account. How will the Government ensure and protect the independence of the committee so that it can fulfil its role?

There should be provision in the Bill for proper resourcing for the scale of the task. Looking at the scale of task, there is a need for the committee to have a clear mandate and duty to look at all relevant policies.

It is paramount that the committee can look at policy right across Government. The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, said that the Bill currently creates only a discretionary duty for the animal sentience committee to review whether a government policy has had appropriate regard to the welfare of sentient animals. There should be a mandate with a clear duty for a review of all policies that fall within defined criteria. Will there be a duty on government departments to co-operate with and share necessary information the committee? Is there a mechanism for departments to flag relevant policy developments?

The Better Deal for Animals Coalition is calling for the Secretary of State to create a cross-Whitehall animal sentience strategy, which would include plans for what upcoming policy is then within the scope of the ASC. This additional duty would also require the Secretary of State to report annually in person to Parliament to allow full scrutiny and an evaluation of the effectiveness and impact of the ASC.

To truly improve animal welfare, there needs to be prospective, not just retrospective, consideration of policies. The Bill allows for the ASC to produce a report on policy that “is being” or “has been” formulated or implemented, but, if we consider policy during formulation, the committee’s recommendations can be effected and policy can be improved. Can the Minister confirm that this is being looked at as a potential in future? Will the committee be able to look at the enforcement of existing animal welfare legislation? Where it falls short, can the committee report on what action the Government should take to enhance its impact and strengthen existing weaknesses?

I will look at the scope of the Bill, particularly Clause 5, as other Members have. It defines “animal” as

“any vertebrate other than homo sapiens.”

We have heard about the independent review that Defra has commissioned into whether there is evidence that decapod crustaceans and cephalopods are sentient. As other Members have already asked, when will this report be available?

As noble Lords have said, there is already ample evidence to show that these animals are sentient, so we believe that the definition of “animal” should be expanded and included in the Bill. As we know, this expanded definition was agreed upon by the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission earlier this year. Furthermore, notable animal welfare organisations, such as the British Veterinary Association and the RSPCA, also recognise the sentience of decapod crustaceans and cephalopods and fully support their inclusion. Will the Government expand the definition to include these particular animals?

Animal welfare is a global concern, and ensuring the health and welfare of sentient animals is important as a marker of social progress. We welcome the Bill but urge the Minister to take serious note of our concerns and those expressed by others. We look forward to working with your Lordships’ House to make the much-needed improvements.

Pesticides

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Tuesday 25th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

When our national action plan is published later this summer, the noble Baroness will, I hope, be able to see that we are looking very carefully at making sure all these matters are considered. Integrated pest management is a way forward and she is right to raise the matter of technology. There are some really exciting new processes emanating from our own institutions in this country, which see sprays applied to one particular plant and not the one next to it by using incredible new research from our universities. I hope that everything is moving in the right direction; the reduction in recent years is welcome. Our rules are strict and further conditions will be applied as necessary.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The Minister has talked about new technologies, which we know can greatly reduce or sometimes even eliminate the need for pesticides. Will he outline what support and resources will be provided to farmers on this through the new environmental land management schemes? Does he have current and projected figures for the uptake of new technologies? If he does not have them at his fingertips, I would be very grateful if he would write to me.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I will start with that last point and promise to write to the noble Baroness on the uptake of new technologies. I certainly think that the advantage of the new ELM scheme is that it will allow us to embed integrated pest management as part of the three offers we are making. That allows us to finely hone our support for farmers, particularly where they are moving towards systems that are better for the environment and human health. I can assure her that the use of pesticide sprays and herbicides will certainly be part of our ELM schemes going forward.

Environmental Land Management Schemes

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

My Lords, it is early days on the lump sum payment for farmers to retire. It is proposed that the scheme will come in next year and will involve two years’ basic payment scheme amounts on a reference year budget. It is intended to encourage to farmers to have a dignified exit where it suits them and their business. This will also encourage new entrants who, I hope, will see a future in farming and will be assisted by the Government in trying to enter a business which has been all too difficult for young people to enter in the past. I promise to keep the noble Baroness informed on this because I know it is of great importance to her and the House.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the noble Lord to his position. Does the Minister agree with the assessment that granting tariff- free terms to Australia, and potentially New Zealand, undermining, in particular, small family farms, means that we have to make the same concession to the United States and Brazil? How are the Government ensuring that the design of ELMS considers external factors rather than being purely domestic in focus?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question and her welcome. The Government are committed to trying to assist farming through this transition period. She will be aware of the manifesto commitment that all our trade negotiations will not compromise our high standards of environmental protection, animal welfare and food standards; that is still the position. We need to make sure in ELMS that we are not just looking at the minutiae of a different support scheme and trying to migrate from area payments to a new form of support, but recognising the wider implications to the farming community and the international effects of commodity prices and the like. I am absolutely with her on this; I want to work with ministerial colleagues and others to try to make sure that this works.

Common Organisation of the Markets in Agricultural Products (Wine) (Amendment, etc.) Regulations 2021

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Thursday 15th April 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab) [V]]

I also start by thanking the Minister for his very helpful meeting with me and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, and for his openness about what has happened and the situation that has arisen. Clearly, as the Minister said, this is a very short instrument because its sole purpose is to reinstate a previously implemented operability amendment to geographical indicators that was inadvertently revoked by another Defra SI. This error has meant that the version of the EU regulation on the statute book following the transition period was technically incorrect, but we thank the Minister and his staff for their explanations yesterday that the impact has been minimal.

As we have already considered this instrument in Committee, and other noble Lords have discussed the wider implications, I also intend to keep my remarks brief. I was pleased to hear in the Minister’s opening remarks that he and his department have discussed the situation with both—[Inaudible]—and the devolved Administrations. I draw attention to the fact that, during consideration of previous Defra EU exit SIs, we have raised concerns around the possibility of drafting errors and potential for mistakes if Defra continues to favour multiple and sometimes overlapping instruments over one or two larger consolidating texts.

If we turn to Paragraph 7.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum,

“What is being done and why?”


we can see that our concerns have come to fruition in this case. I understand that it is often more complicated when we have so many different pieces of legislation that need to be updated, changed or brought into UK law following our departure from the EU, but it is concerning that mistakes such as this have been able to be made due to the complexity of the many different small pieces of legislation that are being passed.

I join the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, in giving thanks to the member of staff who spotted this error, as it was extremely fortunate that it was picked up at this early stage. But I hope that the Minister will be able to explain how such an error came to be made. Is the department aware of any similar issues that have arisen in other areas? If so, how many have happened, and are relevant corrections being made? Has the department reviewed how it checks the drafting of often very complex and detailed legislation? We all need to have confidence in government legislation and confusion and avoidable errors are simply not acceptable. I thank the Minister again for his sincere apologies that such a mistake has happened and ask for his reassurance that there will not be any such confusion and reoccurrence in the future.

Plant Health etc. (Fees) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Thursday 15th April 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab) [V]]

I thank the Minister for the very useful meeting that I and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, had with him yesterday, and for his introduction today. [Connection lost.]

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Finlay of Llandaff) (CB)]

We seem to have lost the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab) [V]]

Sorry, my computer took on a life of its own and decided to mute.

Biosecurity has become an increasingly important issue. According to the Royal Horticultural Society, UK imports of live plants have increased by 71% since 1999. But with increasing trade comes increasing risk of pests and diseases being imported inadvertently. It is extremely important that regulatory standards are not compromised following the UK’s departure from the EU, so we are pleased to support this SI. We know that there was previously some surveillance of plants coming in from the EU that sometimes found problems, so improved legislation with additional checks on plant imports from the EU provides an opportunity to detect plant pests and diseases at the border, therefore further reducing future pest and disease problems.

I turn to the detail of the instrument before us today. The Minister has explained that it enables fees to be charged for plant health checks on imports into England from the EU, Switzerland and Liechtenstein, bringing those countries into line with the rest of the world, and that under a phased approach, higher-risk consignments of regulated plants, plant products and other commodities imported from the EU, Switzerland and Liechtenstein have been subject to checks since 1 January this year, with such checks on the remaining regulated goods being phased in later this year and in 2022. As there are a number of different checks and dates of implementation, I would be grateful if the Minister could clearly outline the timetable and provide clarification as to how businesses and industry have been informed about these changes, and what information has been provided to ensure that they are fully ready.

Changing plant health regulations also provides an opportunity to increase public awareness of plant health and biosecurity risks, encourage wider responsibility and drive cultural change. Has the Minister’s department been working with stakeholders such as the RHS to ensure that the UK’s plant health regulatory requirements are presented in a way that is accessible and user-friendly in order to encourage this outcome?

We understand that Scotland and Wales are introducing similar provisions. Can the Minister provide information about what dialogue has been held with the devolved Administrations to ensure a timely and co-ordinated introduction across the whole of Great Britain? Will the fee structures be the same across the devolved Administrations, and is it likely that the fee rates charged could be different? Industry will have to consider how it reacts to the new charges, so if there are different fee rates, has the Minister considered how businesses are likely to react and also how importers will decide to pass on the increased costs?

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee asked the department about the expected additional cost to business arising from these fees and the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady McIntosh, have gone into detail around this. But it is important that the SLSC regarded Defra’s approach in this area as “poor legislative practice” by not having

“analysis of the expected financial impact”.

The fact that

“the Department found it necessary to phase in the fees to give businesses time to adjust”

shows that an impact on business has been recognised. As the SLSC points out, there is no real information on the anticipated impact of these changes for those in the trade.

Defra has engaged with stakeholders extensively regarding the planned changes; however, we know from previous experience that the total potential impacts of the UK leaving the single market and customs union have not always been completely clear or understood by those it affects. In earlier SIs we have raised our concerns about the capacity of ports to carry out inspections; I therefore ask the Minister: where will the inspections take place? What assessment has been made of capacity and what additional resources have been provided to ensure effective delivery of the new checks?

As a final point, in its submission to an inquiry by the House of Lords EU Energy and Environment Sub-Committee into biosecurity, the Prospect union recommended better training for plant health officers, with the re-establishment of a viable training programme for new and established inspectors, plus joint training ventures with the Horticultural Trades Association and Royal Horticultural Society. Can the Minister inform us as to whether this has taken place and, if not, whether further training of officers is planned?

Fishing Sector and Coastal Communities

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Thursday 25th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the recent announcements are UK-wide. We want all coastal communities across the United Kingdom to benefit from these schemes and funds. We think that there is a strong future for the communities. They will command a lot of public support in terms of fiscal support, as I have described, and I am far more confident than I think the noble Baroness is portraying. There are difficulties, and we need to overcome them and advance.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab) [V]]

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, just mentioned the shellfish industry and the devastating impact on it as a result of the ban on British shellfish in the EU. What progress is being made with the European Commission on lifting this ban? Also, the Minister mentioned the Seafood Disruption Support Scheme. The criteria for it are limited in scope and the scheme does not appear to match the ambition initially indicated by government Ministers. Can the Minister assure me that the scheme will be sufficient to support those businesses affected, some of which have had no income at all this year?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, these are important points and we are seeking an urgent resolution to the matter of live bivalve molluscs from class B waters. We have an extremely strong legal case and we are awaiting a meeting with the commissioner. I should say that those businesses impacted by this disruption to trade can apply for support via the seafood response fund, which seeks to ensure that the shellfish sector is supported during this difficult period.

Heritage Organisations: Coal Supplies

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Thursday 21st January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, again, we are working across departments with the heritage sector, because we want to have a long-term future for it. However, we need to find alternative ways of securing the heritage sector while having a cleaner and greener economy and reducing emissions, which are making a significant impact on people’s health.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, we have heard concerns about the importation of coal, and I understand that some heritage rail organisations are currently importing coal, including from Germany. Can the Minister clarify how much coal is currently imported for this purpose, whether the amount is expected to increase, and what the impact of new border controls will be now that we have left the European Union?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My understanding is that, of the 26,000 tonnes of coal used for heritage rail, 90% comes from four British open-cast mines, and therefore any requirements will be about negotiating a suitable ongoing domestic supply. As I said, we want to work with the heritage sector on these matters. My understanding is also that coal imports are overwhelmingly not from EU countries.

Official Controls (Animals, Feed and Food, Plant Health etc.) (Amendment) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab) [V]]

I start by thanking the Minister for introducing the SIs so clearly today and for his very helpful briefing beforehand. First, I will address the animals, feed and food and plant health regulations.

Paragraph 2.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum explains that sanitary and phytosanitary checks are to be carried out at “designated border control points”. The Government committed to building more infra- structure at ports and elsewhere to support the increased number of checks. However, we know that not all of these were ready on 1 January. Will the Minister take this opportunity to update colleagues on the status of these facilities, particularly given the fact that Her Majesty’s Government have acknowledged that there have been problems at the borders?

Part 2 refers to the special import conditions that may be imposed in respect of imports from third countries of products of animal origin intended for human consumption. Can the Minister clarify how special import conditions will be communicated, how long they will apply and the processes proposed to review their cumulative impact?

A number of noble Lords have mentioned the issues that were raised by Friends of the Earth. For example, Regulation 4 amends the previous animal feed regulations to omit Regulation 90. This had previously replaced references to the European Union Reference Laboratory for Animal Proteins in Feedingstuffs with the words “reference laboratory”. This was mentioned by both the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and we would be interested to know why these references have been reinstated. Does this represent a specific, time-limited transitional arrangement or an agreement on continued UK engagement, or is it that no reference laboratory yet exists within the UK to take on this work?

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, referred to Regulation 17 and model official certificates, so can the Minister clarify the requirements for these certificates and the timescales within which they will be available? The noble Baroness also mentioned that there is an update required on the development of

“the appropriate computerised information management system”

that is referred to in paragraph (6)(b).

We were concerned as to why the regulations in this SI were not included in the previous SI, debated at the beginning of December; this was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell. The Explanatory Memorandum appears to blame the European Commission, and I am aware that the Minister explained in his introduction why the regulations were not dealt with previously. But we agree with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and her frustrations in having to, once again, go over ground we have already covered.

I turn to the draft plant health amendment regulations. As we have heard from the Minister, this instrument aims to protect biosecurity and support trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland by ensuring that plant health controls for qualifying goods moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain can function after the end of the transition period.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee raised the question of documentation for products heading in the opposite direction—Great Britain to Northern Ireland—and although I am aware that this is not technically within the scope of this SI, I hope that, given the problems currently being experienced by supermarkets, the Minister will not object to us asking for clarification on whether or how supermarkets have to notify Her Majesty’s Government that the procedures have actually been updated, and for an update on the situation regarding the flow of goods.

Regulation 3 allows the Government to move products that pose a pest risk. This has also been discussed by other Members, including the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, so I will not go into any further detail on that. But it would be helpful for the Minister to clarify who determines what constitutes an “acceptable level” of risk, and which body would determine whether the decision of measures to adopt was suitable to reduce risk to an acceptable level.

Paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum notes that, in some circumstances, British operators can replace an existing EU plant passport with a UK equivalent; the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, referenced this. Can we find out exactly what this process entails in practice? Will there be any time delays? What kinds of costs could there be? How has this been communicated to industry in advance? The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, raised questions about support for business, and I do not feel that the Explanatory Memorandum is clear on these points, other than saying that it did not believe that consultation was necessary.

The Explanatory Memorandum also repeatedly states that the instrument

“facilitates the government’s policy of unfettered market access”.

While it may do that on paper, there have been initial teething problems which have amounted to anything but unfettered access. I ask the Minister to encourage the Government to apologise to businesses which have been affected by the lack of lead-in time for these new procedures. I await his response with interest.

Animal Welfare and Invasive Non-native Species (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Monday 30th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this SI this afternoon and for organising the very helpful briefing beforehand, which I was able to attend. We have heard some interesting contributions and a number of questions, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. It is clear that the changes in the proposed SI are necessary in the three different areas that it covers— namely, to secure the continuation of an effective regime for animal welfare in transport, slaughter and other areas; to continue the ban on leg-hold traps and the import of pelts obtained by that method; and to ensure that the strict protections placed against invasive non-native species are maintained. It also, importantly, provides continuity to business in these areas after the end of the transition period. I understand that reciprocal arrangements are being discussed with the Republic of Ireland but have not yet been finalised, so I would be grateful if the Minister could keep us informed on progress in this area.

We welcome the overall purpose of these regulations, which is to uphold these high standards in different areas of animal welfare and associated trade policy and apply the rules to EU countries in the same way as to other third countries. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, covered the area of animal welfare in great detail, so I shall not repeat her questions. However, I have a number of questions for the Minister, and I would be grateful for his clarification. A number of noble Lords mentioned the importance of getting the transport arrangements right. The Minister mentioned that one of the main changes is that of transporters having to apply for documentation from a competent authority in Great Britain rather than the EU. How and in what way is that being communicated to interested parties?

It is inevitable, as with any new system when it is introduced, that there will be teething problems. Is there any form of discretion that can be exercised if a transport arrives at a port without the relevant paperwork? If not, have the Government considered what kind of delay this is likely to cause, at what potential cost, and how those teething problems can be resolved?

Looking at the Explanatory Memorandum, I see that paragraph 10.2 talks about the consultation, and consultation outcomes. It states that Her Majesty’s Government have engaged with industry representatives on the recognition of EU journey logs and other certificates and authorisations that are required. Will the Minister outline the nature and timing of this engagement, and can we have an assurance from him that interested parties will be properly consulted ahead of any future policy changes?

On invasive non-native species, I will first say that it was interesting to hear the noble Lord, Lord Walney, and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, talk about the red squirrel population. It is very important to support that. I am fortunate enough to have red squirrels visiting my garden and it is very important that we do not lose this precious species. On the other hand, I am not so fortunate in that I regularly battle with Himalayan balsam, which we also have growing extensively along the riverbanks on our land. I welcome the strengthening of these regulations so that emergency measures can be applied in order to add new species, and also the fact that the regulations have been approached in a co-ordinated manner across Great Britain. It is important that we control these invasive species as much as possible and that there is both contingency planning and the ability for a rapid response when required.

I will draw attention also to a couple of paragraphs of the Explanatory Memorandum. First, paragraph 2.24 says that changes to enforcement legislation will

“enable enforcement officers to use discretion when transferring seized specimens to appropriate facilities”.

Will the Minister provide further detail on what this discretion is likely to entail? The Minister also drew our attention to the proposal that items seized in Scotland would be allowed to be transported to a Scottish rather than English facility. Is this the full extent of the change, or will it be extended beyond that?

I think I will end there. We have a lot of questions for the Minister to answer, so I would be very grateful for his consideration of these matters and await his response with interest.