Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill (Fifth sitting)
Alec Shelbrooke Excerpts(1 year, 10 months ago)
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Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
I am listening very carefully to what the hon. Lady is saying. Is she saying that we should not bring the regulations into force until the EU has brought its regulations into place?
Deidre Brock
Yes, I am. I thought I was fairly clear on that, and I think the Scottish Government’s position is very clear. I refer the hon. Member to the letter that the Scottish Government wrote to the UK Government on the issue recently.
My new clause would ensure clear and visible labelling—
Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill (First sitting)
Alec Shelbrooke ExcerptsTuesday 28th June 2022
(1 year, 10 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Act 2023 View all Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 28 June 2022 - (28 Jun 2022)
Kerry McCarthy
Q
Dr Ferrier: We have really excellent scientists. We have some really world-leading plant science organisations here. An example is NIAB in Cambridge, as Daniel Zeichner will know very well. The scientific capability is certainly there. Obviously, it needs funding, and increasingly research funding is seeking to enable impact from research—impact beyond the academic world, but on society and the economy. Based on that, if research funders see that there is a route to market eventually for the science that they are funding, that will increase the investment in research and development. Of course, the statutory instrument passed a few months ago will enable and make easier the R&D for these particular technologies, which is a good first step. Then, if we have a clear route to market, that will be a further incentive to explore those funding streams.
Of course, with funding comes greater capability, because research organisations are then able to recruit the best researchers. When we were doing our consultation of our members on the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs consultation last year, we had scientists come and talk to our members, including a wheat scientist from the John Innes Centre, who explained the science he was doing and the potential for that to address some of our members’ challenges. We have seen in the food White Paper the reference of protein crops and finding ways to get sources of plant-based protein. Some considerable investment in R&D is required in order for that to become a greater commercial proposition for growers in this country.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
Q
Dr Ferrier: I guess we are talking about a new, not genetically modified food. I have not done a comparison of current GM foods on the market—the chocolate bars and the oils, for example—so I am not sure where they sit. Organic commands are premium partly because of the greater cost of producing organic. Maybe David could talk about that. On potential products that might come through precision breeding, it depends on the product. I think there is potential, as we have already seen with some conventionally bred products, such as a broccoli with higher antioxidant levels or eggs high in nutrients, for some premium products that have nutritional benefits, but initially there may not be any difference in the final price in shop.
Alec Shelbrooke
Q
Dr Ferrier: From conventionally produced wheat, for example, for baking a conventional loaf. It depends on the products that come through. It is difficult to judge, but there are examples, such as a heart-healthy tomato in Japan that has an extra benefit that may command a premium in shops. It is very difficult to tell. I think organic always has that premium. As I said, currently that premium will include the fact that they do not use biotechnology. They do in some of their veterinary medicines, for example, but I mean in the actual production of organic food.
There is a premium for organic. I do not know whether there is a premium for GM or if it is cheaper. Clearly, if it is easier to grow a food product, there is potential to pass that on to the consumer. One relevant element that we may come to later is other requirements around the marketing of precision bred organisms. For example, extra labelling always increases the cost of getting food on a shelf. That could be a cost for the final consumer.
David Exwood: Could I just add to that? It is worth pointing out that, rather than perhaps massively increased yields, what this will increase is the sustainability and reliability of crops. Being able to grow crops consistently with less volatility is the real gain here. You will not see wild swings due to crop impact, or maybe a pest impact such as we were talking about with sugar beet earlier. Its sustainability is the great offer, and that is clearly a real advantage at a time when the global food supply chain is under pressure. That is probably one of the main advantages offered by this technology.
Alec Shelbrooke
Q
David Exwood: It is really interesting. What is happening in the world grain market is a coincidence of problems: the political situation in Ukraine, obviously, but also production problems in the rest of the world. We have serious drought in the US midwest and problems in India, so it is that combination of climate and politics that has created the current spike in prices. Clearly, for example, if we can breed varieties that are more drought-tolerant, that will help with the food supply chain. Again, it has the potential to offer quite significant gains in the sustainability of our food supply.
Dr Ferrier: It is many years away, but I am sure these kinds of shocks will return. Obviously, whatever happens with this Bill, we are not going to have an immediate silver bullet to answer our current issues and shocks within the supply chain.
The Chair
I have three Members indicating that they want to ask questions, and we have nine minutes left, so the time allocation is fairly obvious.
Oral Answers to Questions
Alec Shelbrooke Excerpts(7 years, 9 months ago)
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Elizabeth Truss
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. Honey is an important product for our country, generating over £100 million. As I have said, the apprenticeships that are created through the apprenticeship levy can be found throughout the food chain. DEFRA has its own beekeeper apprentice helping to maintain our hives at Noble House—DEFRA’s headquarters—where we produce our own Whitehall honey.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss)
Two weeks ago, the British people voted to leave the European Union. I will be ensuring that food, farming and the environment have a strong voice in the exit negotiations and in establishing our new domestic policies. Until we leave the EU, it is business as usual for farmers and the environment, and I am meeting relevant organisations to assure them of that. DEFRA’s work continues: we will shortly be publishing the national flood resilience review; we will be continuing with our Great British Food campaign and our work to open up new markets; and we will be developing 14 local environment plans.
Alec Shelbrooke
Following the devastating Boxing day floods last year, will my right hon. Friend tell me and my constituents what long-term plans are being put in place to protect low-lying villages in my constituency, such as Methley, Mickletown, Allerton Bywater and Woodlesford?
Elizabeth Truss
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He has been an assiduous advocate of his constituency, ensuring that towns and villages in his area are not adversely affected by flood defences upstream. We will be working on an overall plan for the River Aire catchment, through which we will manage the overall river flow instead of looking at individual places. That will form part of our national flood resilience review, which we will be announcing shortly.
Oral Answers to Questions
Alec Shelbrooke Excerpts(8 years, 2 months ago)
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George Eustice
As the hon. Gentleman knows, flooding is a devolved matter, but if there is a need for discussion with the Irish Republic and if the Northern Ireland Administration would like me to be involved in that, I would be happy to have that conversation with them.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
Farmers in areas in the south of my constituency, around Methley and Mickletown, have had large areas of their land flooded to hold water in order to prevent flooding of housing, which the farmers themselves agree with. However, what they do not agree with is the Environment Agency saying that it could take up to six years for this water to drain off the land. One particular farmer in my constituency had 80% of his land covered. Will my hon. Friend speak to the Environment Agency to speed up the draining of the water from this land?
George Eustice
That is a good point. Natural flood plains play an important role in alleviating the risk of flooding in urban areas. We intend to use the countryside stewardship scheme to help us to deal with flood problems. As for my hon. Friend’s specific point about the length of time for which land has been flooded, I shall be happy to take it up with the Environment Agency and see what can be done.
Flooding
Alec Shelbrooke Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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Elizabeth Truss
DEFRA spends money on a variety of objectives, including on improving the environment, countryside stewardship by farmers and flood defences. My view is that we can get better value for money by improving the environment and our resilience to flooding. For me, this is about spending our money better and planning for the future better.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
I thank the Secretary of State for coming to the Yorkshire area—she did not come to my constituency but she was next door. In Collingham, the Avenue was flooded when water came over the flood defences—I thank Leeds City Council for its work in trying to sort out those flood defences. In the south of my constituency, in Methley and Mickletown, the EA’s plan to hold water in the farmers’ fields worked, but the water was lapping at the doorsteps of many houses in Mickletown. May I urge her to be careful about schemes in Leeds that are designed to go only as far as Woodlesford, further upstream? That extra water would have taken out dozens of homes in my constituency that, as it was, survived the flooding. Will the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), visit my constituency as soon as possible to see the devastating effect that schemes further upriver in Leeds could have in Mickletown and Methley?
Elizabeth Truss
My hon. Friend highlights the need for proper catchment-wide management. As well as meeting my hon. Friend the flooding envoy, I suggest that a meeting with the EA would also be helpful.
Sale of Puppies and Kittens
Alec Shelbrooke Excerpts(9 years, 7 months ago)
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Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. On his point about animals being used purely to farm puppies, I am sure he will have been to establishments such as Battersea dogs home. It is worth while people visiting this home to see bitches that have been over-puppified and the enormous suffering they go through, with hugely expanded nipples. This ongoing suffering graphically brings home what it means for the mother dog as well as for the puppies.
Robert Flello
The hon. Gentleman is right that the treatment of these breeding bitches is unbelievably cruel. It is the lucky ones who get themselves to places such as Battersea.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
As a dog lover, I shall focus my comments today on dogs. Dogs have a unique bond with us humans. Our two dogs, Boris and Maggie, have a loyalty, a love and a calming nature—and of course there is the comfort that a dog can give you.
Alec Shelbrooke
That does not surprise me.
When people’s dogs or animals need medical attention, they worry about them as they would any other member of the family. Probably for the first and last time, I can say in the House that Boris’s bad behaviour improved immensely when I had him castrated. In seriousness, I raise that point because he did have a castration operation when he was younger, and that night he got constant attention because pets are like a member of the family and it is natural to give them that care. When the public buy animals, they should be able to expect that those animals have had a healthy start in life and have been well looked after, and they should have an understanding of where they have come from.
In hindsight, my wife believes that our dog Maggie came from a puppy farm background. When we got her she had health problems and, in the first period of her life, some behavioural problems. We sorted out the health problems with the vet’s help and she is very healthy now. Now, at some two years old, her behaviour is very good; she is a very loving and caring animal, but it has taken a lot of love and care and attention from my wife and me to allow her to feel secure, comfortable and not threatened.
How many families would be willing to put that level of love and care into an animal?
Sir Edward Leigh
Why cannot Conservative Back Benchers be given this same love and care?
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
May I just say for the record that I and my office have received more e-mails and letters on this issue than any other in the past few weeks? I hope that my hon. Friend agrees on the strength of feeling that exists on this issue among our constituents.
Alec Shelbrooke
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, because he highlights the reason that we have all had so much communication on this issue. It comes back to my point that puppies, kittens and other animals that we bring into our lives become part of our families. As the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) said, we would not tolerate any harmful behaviour towards a human being in our family; many people feel the same bond with their animals and want to ensure that they are properly looked after.
As I said earlier to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello), if one visits Battersea Dogs & Cats Home, or the Dogs Trust in my constituency, and sees some of the consequences of bad behaviour and terrible care, one cannot help being moved. The Dogs Trust in my constituency does outstanding work but its resources are limited. How many families who were faced with the situation that my wife and I were faced with with our dog Maggie would give up and give their dog away to the Dogs Trust or elsewhere? But let us be under no illusions: the chances are that on many occasions, that dog will be killed—“to put down” or “to destroy” does not have the same impact as “the animal will be killed.” That is why we need to ensure that families offering love and care do not find themselves in a position where they simply cannot care for the animal.
Many constituents have raised this issue with me, but they specifically raised an issue about a pet supermarket in Leeds called Dogs4Us. Petitions have been submitted to Leeds city council, asking it to remove the pet supermarket’s licence, and the city council has looked into the matter. I went further and did the research and looked at the Dogs4Us website, on which it makes reference to an internet campaign and refutes the allegations. The truth will lie somewhere in the middle. I have no primary evidence that these activities are going on, but I do have a lot of secondary evidence.
That points to a bigger picture: what the public are looking for is faith in the inspection regime and licensing system. If that faith existed, people would believe that local authorities would be able to track down and stop what was going on in puppy farming. I urge the Minister to consider closely the suggestions that the licensing and inspection system be renewed, refreshed and redefined so that the public have faith that poor practices, criminality and downright cruelty can be eradicated.
A dog is loyal, rewarding and life-saving; it promotes a healthy lifestyle through exercise and becomes an integral member of the family. As a dog lover, I have focused on dogs, but I know that cat lovers would say the same about their pets. We must do all we can to eradicate the cruelty and harm that can kill puppies and kittens, and to prevent loving and caring families who go out expecting to bring in a new member of their family ultimately experiencing heartbreak, because of a con at the beginning.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Obviously, this is an emotive and emotional debate, especially for those of us who have welcomed dogs and cats into our homes and included them almost as members of our family. I will not talk about my own dog because it would be too emotional. Sadly, he has just passed away. However, I will talk about the dog of the former Member for Birmingham Sparkbrook, Lord Hattersley. He has written eloquently of his love for his departed dog, Buster. We all have similar stories to tell. It seems to me that dogs have many of the virtues that us politicians lack—particularly silence and loyalty.
Our sympathy for these animals reflects the comfort and companionship that they provide, particularly for elderly people, in our increasingly atomised society. Therefore, everybody who has spoken believes that we have a duty of care to these creatures and it is no surprise that so many of our constituents have written to us. They rightly feel strongly about the cruelties that puppies and kittens are forced to undergo in puppy farms, especially being separated far too early from their mothers.
The point that I want to make in this debate is that an extraordinarily wide scope of legislation is available to local authorities and Ministers already. We should be proud of that legacy of legislation in our country, which goes back well over 100 years. The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was founded in 1824 by a group of zealous reformers, including such illustrious Members of this House as William Wilberforce and Richard Martin—both of whom were, incidentally, good high Tories. In its first year, the society managed to bring more than 60 offences to the courts. It was awarded royal patronage by Queen Victoria in 1840. We all know of the vital work of the RSPCA, so it does not need to be underlined. There is already much legislation on the statute book. To name a few, we have the Pet Animals Act 1951, the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973, the Breeding of Dogs Act 1991 and the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999.
No one can deny the inhumane conditions that exist in puppy farms—they have been well listed today—and nobody can deny that more should be done to eliminate them from existence. Through their licensing of pet sellers, local authorities have all the inspection powers they need. When they are not satisfied that suitable welfare conditions exist, they can refuse operating licences.
Alec Shelbrooke
I am listening to the thrust of my hon. Friend’s speech. He has named the different pieces of legislation. Does he agree that what is needed is a tidying up of the legislation, so that we have specific legislation that can be implemented efficiently and effectively?
Sir Edward Leigh
That is a fair point and it leads directly to the last point that I need to make. All too often in this place, when we see abuses continuing, we fly to the temptation to create new legislation. What we need to do is to enforce the existing legislation better and ensure that it is modernised and updated, because it is in place.
Mr Amess
I agree with my hon. Friend. We have stood shoulder to shoulder for more than 30 years, together with my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), and I hope that the Minister will forget his brief and respond positively to all the remarks made this afternoon.
Alec Shelbrooke
When pressing the Minister, will my hon. Friend bear in mind that it is all very well our hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) saying that an amount of self-regulation can be involved—such as insisting on seeing the mother of the animal—but that does not take into account the emotional side and what people feel when they see a puppy? Therefore stronger legislation and restrictions need to be in place.
Mr Amess
I agree with my hon. Friend, although I am not sure about his earlier remarks about the castration of his dog. It is crucial that puppies are exposed to extensive social interaction and stimuli during the first 12 to 14 weeks of their lives, but that is more than commercial farmers are willing to provide. As a result, dogs coming from commercial puppy farms are undoubtedly more aggressive, less responsive, and less trainable. Current legislation regulating the operation of pet shops dates back to 1951—a very long time ago. We need to change the legislation, particularly to reflect the impact of the internet, which is the issue that has brought so many colleagues to the House this afternoon. The Pet Animals Act 1951 appears only to address the physical requirements that pet shops need to meet. It takes no account of the mental well-being of a pet being sold, or of dogs that need physical exercise. Clear guidance needs to be provided to local authorities.
I have also been made aware of the growing problem of illegal dog importation to the United Kingdom, and I urge the Secretary of State to examine how the influx of puppies from rabies-endemic eastern European countries can be addressed. I say again to the Minister: be bold, tear up the speech, and do something to stop puppy and kitten farming.
Water Industry
Alec Shelbrooke Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Charlie Elphicke
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Certainly a better deal needs to be driven for the consumer than was driven by the previous Government. They also permitted a culture of industrial-scale tax avoidance, which was wrong.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on all his fine work on the water industry. Would he care to comment on the fact that we have seen a 60% rise in water bills yet still face rather serious and sporadic water shortages? Is it not true that the public have really seen no return for their higher bills?
Charlie Elphicke
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Ensuring that we have investment in the infrastructure that the country needs is really important.
Frank Dobson
The next word in my notes is “reservoirs”. Every substantial reservoir that the water companies use was built when the industry was in the public sector. The private sector has not increased reservoir capacity in this country since privatisation in 1989-90.
Alec Shelbrooke
I stand to be corrected, but I understand that only 1% of rainfall is captured for domestic use. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman has found that during his research.
Frank Dobson
God knows; it would depend on when, if the hon. Gentleman sees what I mean.
The bulk of the reservoir capacity and the pipework was provided when big cities such as Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds and the Metropolitan Water Board in London were trying to look after the interests of the people of their areas. They created the reservoirs and laid the pipes.
During the arguments about the privatisation of the water industry, I received a letter in beautiful copperplate handwriting from an ancient ex-councillor in Sheffield. He said, “All the people at Yorkshire Water are doing is collecting water in reservoirs we built and sending it along pipes we laid. I speak as the former chairman of the water committee in Sheffield.” He pointed out that while the chief executive of Yorkshire Water was getting several hundred thousand pounds a year, when he had been responsible for it he had been paid “nowt” and the job had been done properly, whereas it had not been done properly ever since.
Richard Benyon
Like the right hon. Gentleman, I am keen that everybody pay the required tax, but I caution people who criticise capital allowances. If our water company were not exercising its rights under capital allowances, either investment would fall or our bills would rise, or both. There is sometimes a lack of basic economic understanding: tax deferred is not tax not paid; it has to be paid. In one respect, however, I entirely agree, and I am deeply uncomfortable with some practices in aspects of corporate Britain. Work needs to be done—and in fairness to the Government much has been done—to close loopholes.
We need to make the argument that investment in the industry keeps bills down. The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras seems affronted by Chinese companies and sovereign wealth funds and investors from all parts of the world investing in our regulated sector. I am not affronted. I welcome it. It is the sign of a vibrant industry and one that we need to encourage. We need more investment if we are to deal with some of the Victorian—or at least Edwardian—infrastructure we are trying to replace. Under a nationalised industry, directors of water boards would sit outside the Treasury saying, “Please can we have some more money for investment?” Down the ages, Chancellors have said, “Certainly. Just get in the queue behind the NHS, pensioners and the welfare state, and if there are any scraps left, we will give them to you.”
We have seen an historic level of investment— £116 billion—and we want to see more. We also want to ensure that we keep the bills as low as possible. Supplying all the water that goes into households and treating all the sewage that comes out costs households an average of £1 a day, although I accept that there are wide discrepancies in price. As a percentage of our household expenditure, that might be quite small compared with energy costs and other items, but it is still a significant amount, and those in the lowest income decile in this country are, broadly speaking, in water poverty. We need to address that. There are huge challenges facing the industry, and I hope the Water Bill and the ongoing activities in the sector will tackle them.
The challenges include continuing to ensure investment to deal with leakage and other concerns, such as those expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), and to ensure that new infrastructure is built. We must also address the challenges of affordability and the credibility of the industry among its customers. An important matter for our constituents is that the companies address the question of resilience. They must be able to keep the water flowing from the taps in a time of changing climate.
In my short tenure as Minister with responsibility for these matters, I saw the worst drought for decades. We are the sixth largest economy in the world, but if we had had a third dry winter, towns in some of the most economically vibrant parts of the country would have faced the very real prospect of standpipes. That is unacceptable in this day and age. Large national events could have been affected. Indeed, the Olympics presented quite a worry at the time. We clearly need more investment to ensure that water continues to flow in areas that are prone to drought.
During that time, I also saw floods. We must not forget that the water companies’ role in managing sewerage systems is vital in protecting our constituents’ homes from flooding. There is also a need for continuing investment in that regard.
Alec Shelbrooke
I shall expand a little on my hon. Friend’s comments on the role of water companies in dealing with flooding when I speak later. Would he care to comment on how the water companies are often ignored when they tell developers that there is a flood risk in the area in which they are building? Does he agree that the water companies are often left to clear up the resulting mess, which puts pressure on their budgets?
Richard Benyon
My hon. Friend makes a good point. The Government are right to deal with the connection to private sewers, where many leakages have occurred. They, and the water companies, are also taking action in other areas to ensure that they are playing their part. Sometimes just a small investment can make a big difference to the flood risk in an entire street, for example. It is vital to ensure that the water companies are sitting down and talking to the flood forums and the local flood authorities to make sure that these issues are being addressed, but perhaps that is a wider issue for another debate.
The Water Bill will play a key part in addressing the challenges. The question of building new infrastructure and new reservoirs was raised earlier. The key reform to ensure that that happens, to secure the long-term sustainability of the industry and long-term benefits for our constituents, will involve enabling new entrants to come into the industry and provide new competition. The competition that will exist in the non-household sector must, in time, be introduced in the household sector as well, and I hope that that will be the long-term ambition in a forward-thinking political agenda. That would result in the kind of benefits for households that businesses will soon be able to achieve by switching supplier. The Bill should be seen only as work in progress, however.
One of this Government’s achievements of which I am most proud is the water White Paper. It might sound rather prosaic to say that I am proud of a document, but it set out some important provisions. It demonstrated that the Government were getting a grip on water policy. In the past, water policy had been created by all kinds of different organisations and bodies, not least the water companies themselves. In the White Paper, we demonstrated our determination that the Government should own the policy and that the regulators should regulate. We stated that, in a regulated sector, if the water companies functioned within meaningful regulation by the three regulators, we would have an industry of which we could be proud. The water White Paper was welcomed by customers’ groups, the industry, investors, green NGOs and all parts of the House, although I do not know whether that makes it a unique document, as the natural environment White Paper achieved much of the same.
Mr Buckland
My hon. Friend is right to suggest that the breakdown of the arithmetic for individuals does not seem to add up. Thames Water intends to use a separate corporate vehicle to build this entity, but we must ask why the bill payer must bear the brunt of the problem.
Let me return to the question of leakages because the figures are quite startling. Although Thames Water is making progress in bringing the leakages down, and I give it credit for that, the figures are pretty disturbing. Last year, it was reported that Thames Water was losing 665 million litres of water a day, a leak rate of 25.7%. That was five times higher than the 5% that would have been saved by a hosepipe ban. The leaks would fill Wembley stadium every 36 hours.
Alec Shelbrooke
Would my hon. Friend care to elaborate on that for those who call for nationalisation? Is it not true that the state of the water industry and the state of the pipes the water runs through were caused by the lack of maintenance that happened when they were in Government hands? Since they have been in private hands, the investment has been put in to try to rectify that appalling problem.
Mr Buckland
My hon. Friend is right that the problem would probably be considerably worse had we left things as they were and expected the Government, with their declining pot, to invest and deal with leakages. The problems, however, remain and although Thames Water is working to try to deal with them, I believe that the company should concentrate on leakages before it advocates vast reservoir projects such as the one supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker).
It is not just Thames that has a problem of leakages. It probably has the most serious problem, but other companies such as United Utilities and Severn Trent also have considerable leakages. The most recent figures I have from Ofwat show that United Utilities is losing 457 million litres a day and Severn Trent is losing 441 million.
The Water Bill has been mentioned. The Bill is a good first step. It will be the first reform of the industry since privatisation, and it will bring choice for businesses, charities and the public sector, but as other hon. Members have said, we should be going further to allow that choice to be extended to residents and household consumers. I am glad to hear that the Bill will allow for a more joined-up approach to the water supply network, thereby in some ways dealing with the regionalisation issue that continues to bedevil the infrastructure. I am glad that there will be further improvements to the Ofwat regulatory system.
I am looking for a greater emphasis on developing social tariffs. How that is to be done will be a matter for detailed discussion, and while Government guidance, which has been welcomed, has already been issued about concessionary schemes for community groups, it is now up to the industry to act swiftly on social tariffs and to ensure that those who are the most vulnerable and who, like all of us, need access to a basic staff of life, can have that access without the fear of disconnection that was mentioned by the Opposition spokesman.
As I said, this is an issue of not only household and local significance but national resonance. I shall not repeat some of the points that were raised by hon. Members about excessive boardroom pay, rather exotic tax arrangements and capital expenditure, but it is important to note, looking at the figures based on current prices, that in real terms gross capital expenditure by the four major water companies in England and Wales has fluctuated and is on a downward path. My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury spoke eloquently about the cyclical nature of investment, which is hardly a solid foundation for attracting the much needed future and further investment in the water industry. While it is right to say that the Ofwat regime—Ofwat is currently looking at the 2015-20 price regime—is an appropriate exercise of regulatory power, we need to try and get through the cyclical problem that is causing the inflexibility in the industry that he talked about.
Today’s debate is a chance not only to make an important contribution to the ongoing discussion about the cost of living, but to look forward to the Water Bill, to ensure that we take the opportunity to get that piece of legislation right for the market, and to remember that value for money for businesses, and for the people we represent, must be at the heart of our deliberations and discussions today. We owe it to them to ensure that water bills are priced competitively, that the service is efficient and that there is a real sense of responsibility for the people that the water companies serve. If we help water companies along that road, we will have done the people whom we represent at least some service today.
Gavin Shuker
No, that is not the case. The Flood and Water Management Act 2010 created the legislative framework for that measure.
I want to talk about some of the measures that have been trumpeted as the solution to bring about water affordability and to stop the rising tide of householders who are finding themselves in water poverty or unable to pay their water bills. The approach of the Water Bill is entirely the wrong way around. It is interesting to hear Government Members say that the only answer is greater competition. I accept that retail business competition could be a good way of reducing water usage. That has made a profound difference north of the border. That is why we have supported it continually. The idea came out of the Cave review.
However, at a time when many parts of the UK are much more water-scarce than other parts of the continent and even parts of Africa, it is short-sighted to think that that idea will work without considering abstraction reform as well. The Government have chosen to punt that issue into the 2020s—until 2025—for the next Government to look at. If we do not deal with scarcity in many parts of the country, there will be a major problem. Instead, the Government have looked for a number of measures that will shake up the industry and make them look pro-reform, but that will not necessarily tackle the issue of abstraction.
There is an idea that the only answer to the problem of some parts of the country being water-rich and others water-poor is to build pipelines. I remind the House that 2% of the country’s energy usage already goes on water. There is a major carbon cost to that idea. If people do not believe that that would end up on people’s bills, they are wrong.
Alec Shelbrooke
Just to clarify, did the hon. Gentleman say that we need a national water grid to move water around or that we do not?
Gavin Shuker
I am happy to clarify that. I was saying that the idea of a national water grid is stillborn, purely on the basis that the carbon costs make it too difficult. If we accept the premise for that idea, surely what we need is a similar level of investment in water efficiency. We must have a similar amount of foresight on how we will get by with less in the many water-stressed areas. The south-east continues to grow and water is becoming more scarce.
Unless there is proper leadership on that issue, things will become very difficult. Big concrete, in-the-ground solutions are not the right approach. There is a need for additional water capacity, but we need to consider the issues. I say humbly that the Government have a green deal, but where is the blue deal? Where is the deep thinking about what we need to do?
Another area where the Government have been caught napping is the structure of the industry. After privatisation, a number of companies emerged that were listed on the UK stock market. There was then a shift in the industry towards foreign ownership. Today, the majority of the industry is owned by private equity firms. At the same time, dividends and water bills have continued to rise. Unison has done some fantastic research that has tracked the nature of the industry. However, it is not just Unison that has raised concerns. Jonson Cox, the chair of Ofwat, has said that there needs to be greater clarity in many of the difficult accounting explanations. I hope that Ofwat will continue to pursue that issue.
One issue on which the Government could take action is Eurobonds, and the practice whereby water companies effectively borrow from arm’s length bodies of themselves at greater levels of interest, which is obviously favourable on their balance sheet. The Government consulted on that issue and decided to do nothing, yet it is a major reason why the water industry is skewed the way it is. If we want to drill down and ensure that the benefit of the reforms goes not only to shareholders but to customers and households, the Government must consider that issue again.
Finally, I want to mention social responsibility for water companies. In January 2012 I went to a fantastic research facility at the university of Leeds called Water at Leeds. I gave a speech in which I laid out Labour’s response to the water White Paper and the forthcoming legislation. I also talked about the consensus that exists on water. Both parties in government, the industry and customers have bought into the idea of a largely monopolised, yet privately owned, privately run and privately debt-financed water industry, but that consensus could break down if action is not taken.
Today, 72% of people believe that water would be better off nationalised. That is a massive flashing red light to the water industry that it needs to take action, and to the Government if they believe that that should not be the policy that passes through. I believe one way of doing that would be to have a social responsibility clause in the Water Bill that lays out clearly and benchmarks what each water company is doing in terms of social responsibility. That would include the companies saying how they manage their tax affairs in a way that is easy to understand and has clarity, rather than things being hidden away on the balance sheet. They would also mention their responsibility to their broader constituencies, and whether they employ apprentices and are investing in R and D, as Cave mentioned in his report. Let us look at the water companies and instead of saying that some have a good story to tell, let us try to raise them all up to the level of the very best.
Those five areas—bad debt, social tariff, abstraction reform, Eurobonds and social responsibility—would in themselves create a coherent basis for tackling water affordability and water scarcity. I humbly remind the House that despite all the hype of today and what the Minister may say, this Government have looked those challenges squarely in the eye and dodged each one.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
I would like to go further in the debate and mention some of the powers that I think the water industry needs. I will focus my remarks around the Water Bill, and the fact that as with any industry, resources are scarce. It by no means passes the public by that their water bills go up, yet now and again we have hosepipe bans and so on because—let us be honest—of the mismanagement of our water resources. It does not help, however, when developers take no notice whatsoever of reports from water companies about the impact that their developments may have on the surrounding area. My constituency of Elmet and Rothwell is badly affected by such situations.
I recently had discussions with some people from Yorkshire Water about a small village in my constituency called Walton. It has a couple of houses that are badly affected by heavy rainfall and flooding. Yorkshire Water effectively said that a scheme to save two houses would cost £1.8 million—not in the region of something it could afford do—but that the problem came about in the first place because the original barn should never have been converted into a house. Messages to that effect were put forth at the time, but the conversion went ahead. The house was sold on in good faith and no matter what the situation in trying to alleviate the problem, Yorkshire Water is fairly certain that the water will always end up in that place. No one particularly noticed when it was full of cows, but when it is someone’s house, they tend to notice. That is a prime example.
My constituency is under unprecedented pressure for housing development. Figures from Leeds city council state that 12,500 houses could be built across my constituency. One place currently under great scrutiny is an area of Kippax called Sandgate drive. Some 260 houses are to be built at the back of some houses—by that I actually mean built on a hill behind those houses. Yorkshire Water has said that the water that will run off would be unacceptable and that it would put huge pressure on the water courses to deal with that run-off of water—something the developers appear to be ignoring.
The Environment Agency deals with water that floods off land and is taken away in rivers, but it is down to the water companies to deal with the surface run-off and to get it to the rivers. The current development plans do not help water companies in the slightest, which means two things: first, that resources that should be used to repair the network so we can use our resources more efficiently get soaked up in flood alleviation solutions; and, secondly, that people’s bills rise constantly, with no further improvement.
In an area of my constituency in the town of Wetherby, there is a planning application for 400 houses at the top of a hill. There have been problems with the water pressure in Wetherby. Yorkshire Water had to take measures on the Thorpe Arch trading estate to ensure it had proper pumping facilities to get the water to the top. That has been resolved, but only last week a resident told me that, last summer, on a very warm day, the water pressure dropped off when everybody in the area used the water. The developers have taken no notice of that, which means that Yorkshire Water must spend more of its resources dealing with the further drop in pressure, because it does not have the detonator to say, “That development cannot go ahead unless the developer is willing to spend huge amounts on the water infrastructure.”
A huge development—a dual carriageway ring road—is taking place to the east of Leeds. Back in the storms of 2007, my constituency, like that of my hon. Friend for—
Alec Shelbrooke
I cannot believe I forgot the name of my hon. Friend’s constituency, but there we go. Like his constituency, my constituency had a huge amount of water flooding through it during those storms. Fundamentally, the river valley could not cope with the amount of water. Nobody can do anything about such one-off events, but we can avoid exacerbating the situation. There is a live planning application for a development on the floodplain in the village that was 6 feet under water that day, which is disgusting. Yorkshire Water should have the ability to turn around and say, “No. That area will not be developed.” The developers can put in any flood protection scheme they like on their new development, but they do not give a tinker’s cuss what happens 100 metres down the road, where the houses will be flooded.
Those problems can be alleviated if the water industry has the ability to work hand in hand with the developers. I mentioned the ring road, which should have a flood alleviation drain built under it. The proposal will have a huge impact on my constituents, who have had to deal with flooding and must now deal with extra housing. We are talking about investment in the water industry and how it best uses the money it gets from water bills. Given the pressures of development, we need to ensure that the industry has every ability to work hand in hand with developers.
One village in my constituency, Methley, suffers from huge toxic, rancid smells from a pumping station for sewage. Yorkshire Water believes that that happens because there is a kink in the sewage pipe somewhere in the two miles of road by the village. It does not have the resources to dig up the road and find the kink—it says that the number of people affected does not justify the amount it would need to spend. That is an example of the pressures the water companies are under.
Frank Dobson
Surely Yorkshire Water has access to a device that will identify where the aforesaid kink is and does not need to dig up two miles of road.
Alec Shelbrooke
One would have thought so, and I have had meetings about that. Unfortunately, Yorkshire Water is uncertain about where the sewer actually runs, and that is a consequence of decades gone by when there was not proper mapping. That shows the problems the privatised water industry has come up against when dealing with a legacy of poor investment and poor records.
Incidents such as the one in Methley are a blight on people’s lives. I have stood there and the smell is appalling—people are prisoners in their own homes. We have to ensure that water companies have a say over inappropriate developments. There are 4,500 houses in Garforth and 1,000 house Rothwell, but no consideration is given to water in planning developments. The developers do not care and leave it to Yorkshire Water to deal with. The time water companies have to take to deal with such issues means that they are not able to deal with historical issues, such as ensuring efficient water use, repairing collapsed sewers and so on.
I urge the Minister to take those points into consideration during the passage of the Water Bill. For my constituents, the ability of the water companies to make their lives better cannot come quick enough.
Oral Answers to Questions
Alec Shelbrooke Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Speaker
Order. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman. I was prepared to give him some latitude, but the question must be purely on Warrington rather than allied to Warrington. We are grateful to him for his industrious efforts.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
2. What steps the Environment Agency is taking that will contribute to growth and employment in the recycling sector.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
I, too, want to add my welcome to the new members of the shadow DEFRA team. The hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) is remembered fondly by officials at DEFRA and I should send their regards.
The UK’s waste and recycling sector is valued at more than £12 billion a year and is projected to grow between 3% and 5% a year for the next seven years, making a valuable contribution to the greening of our economy. The Environment Agency will implement part of the Government’s waste review to ensure that regulation is effective in protecting human health and the environment while making compliance as easy as possible for legitimate business.
Alec Shelbrooke
My right hon. Friend will be interested to learn of a potassic lime fertiliser produced by 4Recycling, a company on the periphery of my constituency of Elmet and Rothwell. The product is made from recycled material but the company is being hindered by the bureaucracy of the Environment Agency. Will my right hon. Friend meet me to discuss the issues that are restricting growth in this industry?
Mrs Spelman
My hon. Friend has been vigilant in writing to me about this product, produced by 4Recycling Ltd. I must set straight for the record that the product, potassic lime, is a mixture of water treatment work sludge and cement kiln dust. A current analysis of the product shows that it contains contaminated products, such as lead. The caution that the Environment Agency has exercised is therefore something that I am sure all Members of the House would understand, but I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss it further.