Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I understand very much the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. I come to this issue from a rather different position. I used to try a lot of cases, some of terminally ill young people, generally from the ages of 15 up to 25 or more. There were a number of cases of those with terminal illness, undoubtedly with capacity, who were also suffering from depression, not very surprisingly, or were confused as to what they really wanted. They came before me for all sorts of reasons unconnected with whether they should live or die from their perspective. What I was looking at was the medical evidence as to the sort of support that they ought to have.

Despite the neuroscience issue, which is important, and despite 18—or down to 16 under the present Government—being the age at which you are able to vote, I just raise whether you are looking at how much you care about the future of this country and what you care about for yourself. Do you want to die because you are going to die in the next few months? The doctors may be right or wrong about six months; we know that many diagnoses are inaccurate. This may be the most important decision of all to make: life or death? Consequently, I am concerned about the age of 18 from my own experience. Whether it should be 21 or 25 is arguable, but I am worried if it sticks at 18.

[Lord Moore of Etchingham (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I support the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Berger. It is reasonable to have these considerations about the different ways people think and feel at different times in their life. One of the big discussions we have more broadly about the Bill is about the cognitive capacities of old people, which are very important in their freedom of decision.

In a similar way, it is reasonable to talk about the cognitive capacities of very young people. In particular, one of the things that makes very young people different from older people is that they naturally have very little encounter with death; they are much less likely to have come across situations in which people die and people they know have died. They simply do not know what it involves. If it were banned throughout the world that anybody under the age of 25 would fight in a war, we would hardly have any wars. One reason why soldiers are prepared to fight in wars is that they do not understand death when they are very young. They are ready for anything.

There is often a very strong culture of suicide in young people, because it is a romantic idea. The poet Keats expressed it absolutely beautifully in his “Ode to a Nightingale” when he speaks about being

“half in love with easeful Death”,

and the joy of ceasing on the midnight with no pain. He knew of what he spoke, in a sense, because he was suffering from a terminal illness, and he died before he was 25.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, and others have brought out, we need to think about the influences on young people who may go in that direction. If they suffer from a terminal illness, that becomes even more acute. Because of their lack of experience in these matters, they will be under greater pressure, quite possibly, to feel that suicide is the way out and is somehow a noble thing to do.

I remember, at school, there was a very brilliant boy who was 18 and wrote a very short poem that just said, “If I should die, think only this of me: ennui”. It was a very clever thing to write, and he subsequently committed suicide aged 19. I ask noble Lords to think about what it might be like in such a situation at such an age.

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[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for his intervention, for which I am very grateful. I point out first that I think that many noble Lords feel there is a very great difference between a decision to refuse treatment or withdraw treatment, which may or may not end one’s life, and to ask for something which will definitely end one’s life. That point is brought up by supporters of the Bill.

I will speak to my Amendment 5 and to the related Amendments 250, 258, 305 and 338.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I wonder whether the noble Baroness might think it wise for us all to find out, after the discussions with the noble Baronesses, Lady Cass and Lady Finlay, what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, is proposing to do before we discuss this any further.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I thank the noble and learned Baroness, but I have a few points to add to the discussion.

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[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

I am grateful for that clarification and we will come back to the noble and learned Lord’s comments on these issues afterwards.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

If one reads Clause 1(1)(c), it not only says that the person has to be ordinarily resident but that they have to have been

“so resident for at least 12 months”.

Consequently, unless being in an embassy is still seen as being resident for the previous 12 months, the point that the noble Baroness made is entirely right.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

I am most grateful for that intervention, because many people who work in the embassies abroad do not live in the embassy; they live in apartments, houses or whatever in its vicinity.

The wording of the Bill prompted my probing amendment, so I ask the noble and learned Lord, in the light of this, whether he is comfortable with the vagueness of the term “ordinarily” or whether he sees merit in reconsidering this wording carefully to clarify the residency requirement to avoid death tourism and ensure that others are not discriminated against. I beg to move.

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[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Pannick. The concept of residence is clearly understood. I recommend to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that he might need a criminal lawyer just in case he was prosecuted for doing something wrong. I would be very happy to act for him, of course.

I recommend that all of us who are considering this matter should have a good look, as I have, at the National Health Service ordinary residence tool, which was revised in March this year. It gives a very clear outline of all the possibilities and where they fall in the ordinary residence judgment. What concerns me about the example that the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, gave, which we will come to on another group, possibly even today, is that if somebody has been living in Spain and wants to come back to their former country of ordinary residence for an assisted dying, if this Bill becomes law, it will prove extremely difficult to detect where there has been undue influence, particularly within a family. It would be extraordinarily difficult to investigate that evidence, whether it was done by a court or by a panel. I would be opposed to it on those grounds.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I also entirely support, including the word “disastrous”, the points that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, made. As he said, domicile is complex. You would end up in court dealing with the issue of domicile. It really is not a good idea.

Under Clause 1(1)(c), there are two requirements. One is “ordinarily resident”. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that if I was trying the case I would have no problem at all. If it says “ordinarily resident”, that is what I would accept, so long as there was the evidence to support it. I do not think we need to be caught up in the Human Rights Act in dealing with such an issue. What worry me are the two requirements,

“ordinarily resident … and has been so resident for at least 12 months ending with the date of the first declaration”.

That seems to be a complete bar for someone who is in an embassy. It is very difficult if they are not ordinarily resident. It looks as though the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, does not agree.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

I hesitate to interrupt my noble and learned friend, whom I regard as being of almost biblical correctness in almost everything. If she were to take a look at the NHS tool that I referred to, which sets out all the requirements to prove ordinary residence, she would find that people who work in embassies, for example, are excluded because they are given fixed-term contracts for a certain time, even though that contract may be extended at some time. It also specifically refers to people who work for charities and who go to work abroad for a temporary period fixed by a contract. I do not think the issue that she has raised is very worrying.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I am delighted to hear it in relation to embassies and charities, but the other example given was the person living in Spain who wants to come back to die here. It seems to me that needing to be resident in this country for the last 12 months would not allow that person to do so. The noble and learned Lord might just look again at that particular element of residence.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

My Lords, I hesitate to interrupt this fascinating debate between our lawyers. I have no legal experience, but I have investigated the notion of domiciliary status at some length for different reasons. I absolutely agree with anyone who has tried to work their way through the 93 pages of conditionalities and various different criteria.

I come back to the central point in the excellent contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, about the need for consistency with the NHS and the implications of not being consistent. The terminology is not just about domiciliary status. What is the notion of permanence? We could have an equally long and problematic debate over that other element of the terminology. I completely respect that this is a probing amendment, but just as we had the beginnings of a debate on mental capacity and the necessity for consistency and trusting that what we already know works, because we see it every day in practice, so the notion of ordinary residence should simply, as far as I am concerned, end the conversation. I think there is a welcome consensus around the Committee that this is the only definition that is going to be practicable, workable, known and acceptable. I hope we can move on with the debate in that context.