Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Lawlor Excerpts

Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I apologise for interrupting at this stage. This has been a very good debate, and it might be helpful if I indicate what my position in relation to this is. The thinking behind 18 is that that is the age at which you can make your own decisions about medical care. If you are suffering from a terminal illness, you can decide at 18 whether you want to withdraw treatment, for example, or what the treatment should be.

In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, we were aware of the different views about when your brain and maturity develop, and what the noble Baroness, Lady Cass, said is absolutely correct—she read Sarah-Jayne Blakemore’s view—in that these age cut-offs that the law imposes generally are not based upon a close study of neurology; they are the law’s attempt to reflect maturity. I am indeed very aware of the fact that if you are 18, you may be more emotionally impulsive and more easily influenced than somebody of 25, 24 or 23. Equally, anybody who has had contact with people who are young and terminally ill will have found that some 18 year-olds are incredibly thoughtful and mature and some are not, for obvious reasons.

I am very influenced by the fact that I have been listening to people expressing real concern about this issue in this House. I still think 18 is probably the right age, but I am very influenced by what the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Cass, have said: that maybe the answer is some assurance that there is a more intense assessment for people aged between 18 and 25. The Bill says that you can have an assisted death only if you have

“a clear, settled and informed wish to end”

your life, and it is being done voluntarily. How can we be sure about those aged between 18 and 25? Two doctors and a panel have to make the decision, but some additional thing might be required.

We are slightly going around in circles again and repeating ourselves, so I suggest that I talk in particular to the noble Baronesses, Lady Cass and Lady Finlay, and that we come back on Report and see whether we need a more thorough assessment for people aged between 18 and 25—although I am not saying I am going to change the age of 18. That is broadly my position.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for his intervention, for which I am very grateful. I point out first that I think that many noble Lords feel there is a very great difference between a decision to refuse treatment or withdraw treatment, which may or may not end one’s life, and to ask for something which will definitely end one’s life. That point is brought up by supporters of the Bill.

I will speak to my Amendment 5 and to the related Amendments 250, 258, 305 and 338.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I wonder whether the noble Baroness might think it wise for us all to find out, after the discussions with the noble Baronesses, Lady Cass and Lady Finlay, what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, is proposing to do before we discuss this any further.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I thank the noble and learned Baroness, but I have a few points to add to the discussion.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I hope that noble Lords will show the customary courtesy, particularly with regard to views to which they have objections.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

Would the noble Baroness consider joining the meeting with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, to talk about her additional points? I think the majority of the Committee is keen to move on so that we can facilitate further groups.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question, and I certainly will consider it, but I think it is important that we have a discussion about what I regard as a compromise Motion, which may be useful in the discussions noble Lords have with the sponsor or those who wish to proceed in that way.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

Would the noble Baroness, for whom I have a great deal of respect, consider whether she is really adding anything at all to the debate by continuing? We can read her amendments; we know the difference between 18, 21 and 25. I and the noble and learned Lord, with whom I do not disagree on the fundamental principle behind the Bill, are both of the view that we should have proper discussion on it and get through Committee in the way that is expected of us as the House of Lords, so when the noble and learned Lord intervenes and says he is willing to hold meaningful discussions, we should do that and move on to the next business.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for his intervention. I recall one of my first horrific experiences in your Lordships’ Chamber when I sat on those Benches. We were speaking about a Bill to which the noble Lord was opposed, and he asked the Front Bench to say I was out of order in speaking because I had gone out to get a glass of water, even though I had sat through not only that debate but all the previous debates. That hardened me to those sort of objections to free speech in your Lordships’ Chamber, and I was very disappointed in that debate and others to have noble Lords from the other side shouting at me, “Shame! Shame!” if I mentioned a view with which they disagreed. So I will persist with addressing my compromise Motion amendment, and I hope I will be brief, but if noble Lords continue to interrupt me, that will make it more difficult.

We have heard—I will not repeat the arguments—that 18 is too young given what we know about neurological science. I have one piece of evidence to add for the whole House, not for the private discussions which might take place. As I understand the rules, this is a Committee of the whole House. So we have heard about that, and I will return to that with one additional piece of information. We have heard also that the law recognises the special vulnerability of young people until the legal age of majority and how it supports different routes.

I go back to something the noble Lord, Lord Moore, said. He referred to how difficult it was for younger people, and even those who may not have given a great deal of thought to the subject, to address dying. I would add to that: to understand what it is to choose to die. For most, the thought of death is distant, and the way society has been conditioned to see death in rather euphemistic terms, in the very language we use, reinforces that remoteness. In the multigenerational families of the past, where the members shared a house, visited frequently, supported one another in all the challenges they met every day in life, death, with its traditional rituals—the funeral and the period of mourning—were ever-present in the lives of children as they grew up. I remember, as a very young child, seeing a mother who had died in childbirth—

[Baroness Blackstone (Lab)]

I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness, but I think the Committee has really made it clear—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, for that intervention, and I am going to my point. I think it is important to the whole argument to recall the various arguments; I am not repeating them, although I did make some of the same points or similar ones, and I have cut those.

We have heard also, in the context of the Bill, rare and sad cases of young adults diagnosed with terminal illness. But I do not think we should underestimate the decision, which is one of the suggestions, to end one’s own life as opposed to withdrawing treatment, given the very variable assessments we get. The science is very difficult. Consultants will tell you that they get different slides back from the lab, depending on how the various scientists and pharmacological people look at the evidence. It is difficult to know how long people will live.

Moreover, as we have heard today, if the Bill becomes law, it is probable that its provisions will gradually become looser in practice. The idea of killing yourself and having help to kill yourself will become normalised. Under these circumstances—alas, they are not those of a dystopian fantasy but are most likely in future if the Bill, in its present guise, has its way—the common depressions and anxieties of late adolescence, which often translate to thoughts of suicide, will be encouraged.

I speak here as someone who has taught 18 to 21 year-olds in university. People who have suffered terrible emotional stresses with which they cannot cope have been referred to me, for me to teach them history. Their tutors have mentioned privately that they want to commit suicide, saying, “They have already tried, but they want to continue doing their course on whatever. Will you take them on?” It may be objected that, since 18 is the legal age of majority, whatever choices are being opened up for older adults must stretch down to a person’s 18th birthday.

I will add just one thing on research in neurosciences. We have spoken a lot about neuroscientists’ view of emotional maturity, but—

[Baroness Morgan of Huyton (Lab)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness, but she said that she would be coming forward with a compromise. I am not really clear on what that is, because it seems that this is still the same evidence as before.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I have not spoken in Committee at all so far. I briefly say to those who are objecting—and who take the view that the intervention of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, should bring the debate to an end—that the debate we are having is about 18, 21 or 25 year-olds. The noble and learned Lord has not said that he is willing to compromise on any of those; as I understand it, he wishes to persist with the age of 18, although he is willing to look at additional safeguards. It does not seem to me, therefore, that his offer of discussions—welcome though it no doubt is—addresses the core question in the debate. So I do not see why the debate should be brought to an end simply by his intervention.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, up to the age of 25, people often struggle to grasp that death is irreversible. They understand in notional terms the point that death ends a person’s life on earth, but they do not really grasp the sense—both those who accept and those who deny the afterlife know this—that life as we know it ends.

Somebody who has not been mentioned is Professor Leah Somerville, a Harvard academic who specialises in psychology and is the director of the Affective Neuroscience and Development Lab. An article on her research says:

“Adolescents do about as well as adults on cognition tests, for instance. But if they’re feeling strong emotions, those scores can plummet. The problem seems to be that teenagers have not yet developed a strong brain system that keeps emotions under control”.


I have suggested the age of 21, not 25, as the lower limit. I regard this as a compromise, and I proposed it at the outset. As I say, the medical evidence points to 25; I am happy to support that.

In conclusion, opponents might say that the seven-year gap between the age at which a person is thought to be an adult for legal purposes and the age at which they become eligible for assisted suicide is simply too long, but no young person should be presented with the option of taking their own life—certainly not those who have been diagnosed as having a terminal illness. They are not physically, psychologically or emotionally developed to the maturity needed to make a judgment devoid of emotion. Although my moderate amendment places the age of eligibility at 21—I stress that it is a compromise—I would be prepared to support other noble Lords on the age of 25.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I want briefly to respond to a point made earlier in the debate by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, whose medical expertise I respect greatly. He quoted a comment from Sarah-Jayne Blakemore, which has not been said already in this debate, and talked about the context in which decisions are made. In a paper, she said:

“Adolescence is characterized by making risky decisions … This suggests that decision-making in adolescence may be particularly modulated by emotion and social factors, for example, when adolescents are with peers or in other affective (‘hot’) contexts”.


That tells me—it is relevant to an earlier discussion—that it is not just the age of the person that is relevant, which is why Amendment 4 from the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, is very helpful. It is about context in decision-making.

I listened carefully to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said about the thought process that he was going to undertake, having listened carefully to some experts. Like him, I am torn on the age issue. The amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, is very helpful in setting out some of the issues, but I was also struck by what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said, so I am slightly torn on whether age is the right way of doing it. I do not know whether it is an assessment.

My final point is that I was struck by what the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, said—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashcombe (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to express my particular concern regarding Amendment 416. The question I must put to the noble and learned Lord is, why should an independent doctor tasked with providing a second opinion not have access to the notes of the first? Is the intention to prevent any influence on the second medical professional, even when the first has identified grounds for dissatisfaction and declined to proceed with the possibility of assisted death?

We have already engaged in lengthy debates on the crucial matters of decision-making capacity and the risks of coercion. What if the first independent doctor had uncovered evidence of precisely such concerns? This situation inevitably calls to mind the troubling prospect that a patient, or indeed another party exerting influence upon that patient, might seek out a doctor willing to endorse the view of the co-ordinating physician. Surely the medical notes generated throughout the process are of fundamental importance to all involved in the medical profession, and it cannot be right that they should be withheld from any participant in the decision-making claim. I therefore earnestly ask the noble and learned Lord to give me his thoughts on this, as I do not really consider this to be a straight drafting issue.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, I would like to refer to Amendment 6 from the noble and learned Lord the sponsor of the Bill, because I have concerns with it. In inserting the words

“has a preliminary discussion with a registered medical practitioner”,

Amendment 6, which is described as a drafting change, adds to the uncertainty about what discussion takes place with the patient and when. It is a dangerous uncertainty as, if the Bill was so amended, it would be left open for one or more such discussions to take place before the person is 18, so long as the discussion that is required as a preliminary discussion takes place after the person has reached 18.

In particular, the amendment would do nothing to restrict the scope of Clause 5(3), which permits a medical practitioner to engage in preliminary discussion about assisted dying with a patient who raises the subject. Since there is nothing to tie the discussion referred to as “a preliminary discussion” to be inserted in Clause 1 with “a preliminary discussion” in Clause 5(3), the amendment will not stop these discussions taking place with under-18s.

Grammatically, a “such and such” refers to any “such and such”, and the word “preliminary” does not imply a restriction on number; there could be one or 100 preliminary discussions. Although Clause 5(3) does not oblige the registered medical practitioner to discuss assisted dying under the Bill’s provisions with any patient who raises it, Clause 5(6) obliges the practitioner concerned to direct the patient to

“where they can … have the preliminary discussion”—

and that is the preliminary discussion. Therefore, even as amended, the Bill requires that any patient, whatever their age, who raises the possibility of assisted dying under the Bill is enabled to have a discussion about it. It cannot be objected that in Clause 5(6), the reference is to “the”, not “a”, preliminary discussion, since here “the” refers back to the preliminary discussion in Clause 5(3) to Clause 5(5), where the phrase used is “a preliminary discussion” or “such a preliminary discussion”—that is to say, any preliminary discussion of the matter.

These points may seem technical and pernickety, but consider how the Bill, even as amended, might lead a young person to end their life prematurely without proper adult consideration of the matter. Take a 16 or 17-year old who is suffering from a disease that makes their life expectancy uncertain, or who has been warned that they might die rapidly or deteriorate and die at any time. We may all try to imagine, but we can hardly know how such a young person might feel: isolated, lonely, afraid, and perhaps hypersensitive to remarks or innuendo, real or imagined, or indeed to some of what we have heard today about social media and pressures from peer groups in the Netherlands. They might share not only the worries about the illness, but the normal doubts of people of that age that even those in the best health who are depressed and unsure of themselves have. How easy for the unfortunate young person to say, “I wish I were dead”.