Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Jay of Paddington Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I declare that I was a vice-president of Hospiscare in Exeter. I am probably the only person in this Committee who has tried cases of capacity, again and again, both as a High Court judge and in the Court of Appeal. One case was so difficult that the Court of Appeal, where I was presiding, sat until 1 am. Noble Lords may not have thought that the Court of Appeal did that very often. It is important for your Lordships to realise that some cases that I tried were extremely easy to try—one in particular involved a Miss B, who was obviously competent—but other cases were extraordinarily difficult. One case—the one that we did until 1 am—concerned somebody with a needle phobia who was expected to need a caesarean, and she objected because she could not bear the idea of a needle. At one in the morning, we took the view that she did not have the mental capacity to decide on her caesarean. She was hugely relieved and had the operation without any trouble. But that was not a unique case—the time was, but not the problem.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)]

My Lords, I of course enormously respect the experience of the noble and learned Baroness and her ability to make these judgments. I am sorry that she had to sit until 1 am. But does she feel that those decisions would have been more or less complex and difficult if she had been judging them on the basis of ability?

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I have not the remotest idea. It is such an important point that I would have to go away and reflect. I am not commenting on ability or capacity; the point I am making to the Committee is about the difficulty of this for a doctor, or several doctors—probably GPs. The Royal College of Psychiatrists, of which I am an honorary fellow, has said firmly that it wants nothing whatever to do with the panel or with this, so doctors who are not psychiatrists will decide, with other people, whether somebody has or does not have capacity. That is what is currently in the Bill.

I warn your Lordships that this can be difficult, particularly when it involves depression. I had a friend, a solicitor, who suffered from depression. She said that she used to fall into a black pit and try to crawl up the sides, which were slippery. It was clear to me that, when she was in that depression, she certainly did not have the ability to make serious decisions. So I warn your Lordships about the potential problems of assessing capacity.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Thornton for raising the question of other countries. Some of us here have sat on Select Committees on this subject over a large number of years; for example, I did so 20 years ago. I would not suggest that that evidence is necessarily completely relevant, but the fact is that we have taken evidence. We have not simply taken written evidence; we have been to countries where this has been in practice for many years. If, for example, noble Lords were to look at parts of the United States such as Oregon—one of the states that introduced assisted dying many years ago—they would see that the improvements in palliative care have been enormous and coincident with the application of assisted dying. It has never been the case, for those of us who support the Bill or support the general principle of assisted dying, that there is a choice between palliative care and assisted dying: both should be available.

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal (Lab)]

I never suggested that they should be alternatives. The truth is that palliative care is not available in all parts of our country, so this has to be a real choice. That is the only element I made.

Also, I hope that all of us would look at the evidence, from wherever it came. We know that we have to make evidence-based decisions, and the best evidence will help us to make the best decisions.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Jay of Paddington Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rook (Lab)]

With the greatest respect, that is not the conversation I am trying to have here. The conversation is about the necessity that someone who is going through the process has continuity of care and a relationship with that GP. We are suggesting that someone who is after a state-assisted end-of-life process should have the opportunity to see that GP on a number of occasions so that their judgment can be made in the context of continuity of care, not in one appointment.

To pick up the noble Lord’s questions, this amendment would not block access. It would not frustrate autonomy. It would simply ensure that assisted dying does not begin from nowhere. It grounds a grave decision in a minimal but essential relationship with the health service that is charged with safeguarding the person in question. Supporting autonomy requires a supportive context. It requires knowing whether a request reflects a settled conviction, a moment of despair, untreated depression or pressure that the patient feels unable to articulate. These things cannot be reliably assessed in isolation. Above all, care is relational. If Parliament is to contemplate legislation under which the state may participate in deliberately ending life, the very least we must insist on is that such decisions take place within the context of real and primary medical relationships, not on the periphery of the system.

This amendment would strengthen residency safeguards, improve the evidential foundation for clinicians, reduce the risk of doctor shopping and respect the seriousness of what the Bill proposes by rooting it in genuine and consistent care. I commend the amendment to the Committee.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)]

Can I ask the noble Lord, having cited the doctor Michael Mulholland as a great authority in relation to his evidence to the Select Committee, whether he also accepts what Dr Mulholland said to the Select Committee? He said:

“As GPs, we are very used to providing holistic care and trying to understand where the patient is coming to us from in lots of situations”.

[Lord Rook (Lab)]

I absolutely agree with that. The reason why the doctor is able to do that is because he gives consistency and continuity of care. He does not see patients on one occasion on one big issue, but is able to travel with them in a longitudinal relationship, and that gives him the ability to make those decisions.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Jay of Paddington Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 16th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

It seems to me that this an opportunity for the noble and learned Lord to help the Committee and speed the Bill. Here are a whole series of amendments designed to deal with the genuine concerns of the experts who are going to have to actually carry this law into effect if we are to pass it. Some of us may have strong views about the principle, but we have a duty to do our best to make the Bill work.

One of the problems people have is that the noble and learned Lord has so far not been willing to tell the Committee that he will meet concerns by proposing amendments himself. In this particular group of amendments—which is why I tried to wait until the end of it, because it is not only on an individual amendment that I speak—there are a whole series of reflections of the concerns of those who will have to deal with the Bill when it is passed.

This is an occasion in which we can overcome a lot of the concerns—I might even say suspicions—that there is no intention of changing anything, and that it will just be pushed through, however long it takes, in order that there should not be a concern at the other end of the Corridor. I am sure that the noble and learned Lord does not really think that, but he needs to reassure the Committee. We will get much further, much faster if he can look at these amendments and say he is going to bring forward amendments that reflect the concerns here, which themselves reflect the concerns of the various medical bodies in particular, in order that the Bill will be a more effective Act.

If the noble and learned Lord does not do that, there is a very serious criticism of the Bill, that we are not reflecting in this House the concerns of those who, next to the people who make this choice, matter most: the people who have to implement it. All the medical bodies have reservations. Some few are opposed to it in principle. I am perhaps more interested in those who are not opposed to it in principle but who are concerned about it in practice. If we are not prepared to make the changes that make them happy—though perhaps “happy” is the wrong word—and able in good conscience to support the Bill and follow it through, then we will not have done our job as this reforming House. I say this because I have become rather weary with the fact that what appears to be true is that there are those for whom this is so important a doctrinal position that they are not prepared to consider that this particular formulation needs alteration.

Therefore, I ask the noble and learned Lord, when he comes to answer, to consider very seriously a willingness to say, “I will go through these amendments, talk to the people outside if necessary and bring forward the kinds of amendments that will meet the real concerns of those people upon whom I am going to depend for the efficacy of this legislation if it is passed”. If the noble and learned Lord is unable to do that, more and more of us will begin to wonder whether this is really a debate in which we are trying to improve the Bill and make it the best legislation possible, or merely one that will be prolonged for as long as possible in order to put through the exact same Bill to the House of Commons. Frankly, if it is that, all of us who have doubts about it should redouble our doubts. If it is not that, we have a duty to help the noble and learned Lord to get the best Bill possible. It is in his hands, and this may well be the moment for him to show his hand.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)]

I wonder whether the noble Lord would accept the actual evidence of one member of the medical profession who gave evidence to the Select Committee. She reflected many of the concerns that people who support the Bill agree with. She said that, when the healthcare professions

“get it wrong … it is usually because we are being paternalistic”.

A great many of the amendments in this group are very well intentioned and meaning in their concern for patients, but we must allow for the fact that they rely on an assumption that the medical professions, in their doubts, may act paternalistically.

I have been married for a very long time to a doctor. He would certainly say that the practice of medicine has changed hugely in his lifetime, and that when he first qualified as a young doctor, the field was paternalistic. However, now there is a much greater assumption that the words, intentions and wishes of the patient should be the ones that carry force. That is obviously the philosophy behind so many of these amendments, which, in a sense, seek to reintroduce the paternalistic attitude of the medical profession. In contrast, those of us who support the Bill are much more concerned to support its underlying principle of the autonomy of the individual patient.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I hope that it was an intervention, because, if so, I am able to comment on it. If we start talking about paternalism, we will go backwards in time. We are not really talking about that at all; we are talking about the legislation of this House and the House of Commons. We are talking about how we produce legislation that works. What worries me is that there are a lot of words being used, such as “paternalism”, “kindness” and others, that are making us less precise. Law has to be precise enough for it to be properly implemented.

Frankly, the intervention of the noble Baroness sums up something else. There is a paternalism among some in this Committee who feel that they are so right about the Bill and that they can therefore ignore the comments of people who are trying very hard to overcome their own prejudices—if that is the right word—to get the Bill right. I find it a bit discomfiting to be lectured to, from time to time, as if I should not be making any of these comments because I do not seem to understand the higher views that are being presented. After being a Member of Parliament for 40 years and knowing what goes on in families in terrible circumstances, all I am trying to do is protect people. That is my job; it has been my job all my life. In response to the noble Baroness shaking her head, I say: that is not paternalism; that is the role of leadership in any circumstances. It is what decent people do, and, above all, it is what kindness demands.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Jay of Paddington Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

I do not think there is much difference between what I am saying and what my noble friend is saying. I am saying that, if this law is passed, people should be able to obtain assisted suicide because of intolerable suffering. I am not seeking to exclude other matters that might be in their mind, but the cause of asking for assisted suicide should be that suffering. The medical profession, lawyers and judges in particular—if we have the judicial option rather than the panel option—are perfectly capable of reaching a decision on the facts that would lead to the appropriate conclusion.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)]

My Lords, I was only going to say to the noble Lord that, as I am sure he will remember, I too was a member of those earlier Select Committees. I am sure in that context he will remember that the arguments, discussions and vagueness, frankly, about how one would ever define “intolerable suffering” in a legal sense, or an Act of Parliament, were even more intense than the ones we are having today. That was because there is even more subjectivity about the concept of “intolerable suffering” than there is about any other.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

I do not agree with the noble Baroness, much as I admire her contributions to this House. I believe that, as a legal concept, what I am suggesting is absolutely clear and could be defined properly if we were to use the courts to make the determinations.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, this is the point where we come to the heart of the reason why I find this Bill so difficult. I know what sort of society I have spent my life trying to produce and work for: a society that cares, particularly for the vulnerable. I was accused by the noble Baroness of being patronising the other day. If it is patronising to defend the vulnerable, I plead guilty.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)]

My Lords, I must respond to that. I certainly did not accuse the noble Lord of being patronising. I said that I thought there were difficulties in health policy when we accepted some of the old—and, now, more old-fashioned—concepts in which the medical profession seemed to be patronising. I was not referring to parliamentarians.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I will not take it, therefore, as I did on the occasion when she mentioned it.

What I want to say to the Committee is simply this: many people in many institutions will be tempted to look at the price of death as against the price of life for those who are very seriously ill. There is no doubt at all that all the countries that have already enacted laws of this kind have found this to be a problem. They have all found the difficulty that, for people who have been given about six months to live—even if that is a false diagnosis—there is a tendency to say, “Well, they’re going to die anyway”. A number of noble Lords and noble Baronesses who support this Bill have said that.

I want a society that cares about those people right to their last moment in which they die. That is what I think we are here to do. I hope that does not sound too sentimental, but this is about the difference between kindness and love. Love is something with a backbone that cares for people right to the end and makes sure that they do not feel a burden. We cannot do that for everybody, but the trouble with this particular Bill is that it does not make it absolute and determined that we do look after people and that we find out whether they feel a burden and help them not to feel a burden.

Any of us who has had loved ones who are ill know that, even if they are not seriously ill, the very first thing they do is feel a burden—a burden on their spouses and on other people. That is what decent people do. Other decent people spend their time trying to make sure that they do not feel a burden. Other decent people try to see what is at the heart of their misery—that is the phrase that is used. We should be here to try to remove the misery from people in their last six months, just as we should throughout the whole of their lives. Those who are proposing this Bill seem so committed to getting it through somehow that they think we must not in fact consider what the rest of society is.

I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, hopes to interrupt me, but, before she does, I will just say this. I am not one of those Conservatives who believes in the kind of free market operation where you do not deal with things at all. I am, in that sense, a socialist; I believe in the individual in society. The whole problem with this emphasis on autonomy is that it is not acceptable unless you see the individual in society. The trouble with the Bill is that it tempts those who find it more convenient to allow people to kill themselves because it is more expensive for them to continue to live.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Jay of Paddington Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 30th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, I added my name in support of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Rainow, for in-person assessment by the assisting doctor—the first assessment and the second. As has been said, how on earth can any doctor judge the mind—the physical and mental condition—of the person whom he or she may be ticking off to death without being in the room with them, particularly as this doctor may never have treated them in person?

I know that since Covid there has been an increase in remote consultations, but it is still the case that the average number of in-person consultations that a patient has with a doctor is three a year. In the case of consultation for assisted suicide, that such an appointment with the doctor is in person matters, as other noble Lords have said. We have heard a reference to telemedicine from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, but let us look at exactly what the British Columbia study reported of telemedicine: it limits the ability to observe non-verbal cues, subtle signs of distress and general context, and it fails to provide the emotional support, human contact and rapport essential to the therapeutic relationship between both parties in what is a shared decision. The study goes on to say that it provides limited evidence on long-term outcomes, especially with regard to hard data on assessment quality or adverse consequences. It goes on to say that ticking boxes rather than doing an in-person examination risks further streamlining to avoid an impact on scarce medical resources.

We know, for instance, from the Liverpool care pathway figures released in 2012 under the Freedom of Information Act, that two-thirds of the trusts had received incentive payments for meeting targets for using the pathway, amounting to around £12 million—that was in 2012. Telemedicine is also inappropriate for some patients: people with learning difficulties, autism, poor communication or verbal skills or mental health illness.

I conclude by asking whether the noble and learned Lord, the promoter of the Bill, disagrees with Professor Mumtaz Patel, President of the Royal College of Physicians, that face to face assessment really matters? She says:

“Face-to-face assessment is really important and then the wider decision-making has to be done as a team, through shared decision-making and with somebody who knows the patient well. It goes back to the continuity”.


Does the noble and learned Lord acknowledge the evidence of the “off camera” abuse example from the US state of Michigan? The noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, mentioned the difficulty of detecting abuse online at the very outset of the debate. In Michigan, a prosecutor noticed a domestic abuse victim being coerced off camera during a Zoom hearing. I hope the noble and learned Lord can reply to some of those points.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the House will listen to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, which is that she is probably the only person in the House—and certainly the only person who has spoken this morning—who has had practical experience of assessing people. She spoke very well about the issues which have been raised this morning in relation to the Covid epidemic, saying that, “There was not a clinical or ethical necessity to see people face to face to make proper judgments”. I really want the House to accept that someone with that practical experience should be listened to.

I will make one other short point, which is that I am again surprised, frankly, by the number of people who have spoken this morning who, without, as it were, even mentioning the question of the circumstances of those who are terminally ill and are asking for assistance, talk so much about administrative procedures, the way in which a network might be formed, or the way in which technology could be used. Frankly, I would like to hear a little more from everybody who contributes about the circumstances and problems of those who are actually seeking assisted dying and who may well be those who, frankly, for one reason or another—because they are physically in a way that they cannot do it, or they are perhaps geographically remote or have other circumstances which prevent them being able to access a face-to-face agreement or a face-to-face assessment—none the less very much want an assisted death for their terminal illness. Their concerns should be the ones we primarily consider.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, just asked us to consider the circumstances of those who are seeking an assisted death, but I would like to give a salutary lesson—I am sorry to disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada.

My father was taken ill during the Covid pandemic. He did not have a smartphone and was not able to have an in-person consultation. He had jaundice. The message he came away with from speaking to a doctor on the telephone—the doctor had never met him—was, “It’s pancreatic cancer”. My father then spent weeks saying goodbye to all his relatives and friends. By the time relevant tests had been done, it was shown that he did not have pancreatic cancer.

That demonstrates one of the flaws of doing something remotely, which is: what are the messages? The doctors are not getting the cues and the patient is not necessarily hearing what the doctor is saying. I am sure that the doctor did not say, “Mr Smith, you have pancreatic cancer”—clearly, they could not have said that—but that was the message that my father heard. I therefore very strongly support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Rainow, and two of the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra.

However, I want to express one serious reservation about Amendment 406A from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. If the discussion has to be taken by video conference, it might not be appropriate to say that in every circumstance the only person who should be on that call is the patient. We all know that, when you go to the doctors, even if you are there in person, you have capacity, you are a rational person and you do not have any cognitive difficulties, you do not hear everything. Sometimes, if it is a difficult diagnosis, you do not take everything on board. For some people who are told that they have a terminal diagnosis and understand that that is the case—unlike in the false case of my late father, who did not have a terminal condition at that stage—we know what their settled will is. There are several people in your Lordships’ House who have what their settled will is very clearly on record, in the public domain. But there will be other people with whom the doctor has never spoken before, so they cannot know whether it is somebody’s settled will in a way that the legislation requires.

If, then, there has to be a video conversation, or indeed an in-person conversation, it might be appropriate for there to be an independent advocate or somebody else who would support that person and could say, “The doctor did not really say that, you know”. We need to think about real-life cases. Yes, we need to understand from the medical profession, and it needs to be from the perspective of somebody with a terminal diagnosis, but we also need to understand the reality for ordinary people who do not have the advantages of the internet or the accessibility that Members of your Lordships’ House have.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, and to say how pleased I am, as I am sure all noble Lords are, that she is very much still with us. I hope she will be for many years to come.

This is an important group because, as has been emphasised, scientific precision is of course not possible in this area. Nobody could say that a doctor can tell you that you will die within six months. But the Bill does not so provide. Its conditions require only that the doctor, and the panel in due course, are satisfied that

“the person has an inevitably progressive illness or disease which cannot be reversed by treatment, and … the person’s death in consequence … can reasonably be expected within six months”.

The term “reasonably be expected” recognises the absence of scientific certainty and absolute knowledge in this very difficult area.

The noble and learned Lord will give his view on this in due course, but why, in my view, is the Bill right to so provide? It is because—we are down to the fundamentals of this legislation—if I am told by my doctor that, sadly, I have an inevitable progressive illness or disease and my death can reasonably be expected within six months, I should have the choice of saying that I wish to end my life by taking advantage of the provisions of this Bill. Each of these amendments seeks fundamentally to undermine the core of the Bill and the philosophy that guides it. I entirely accept that its opponents disagree, but this is the core of the Bill and why it rightly so provides.

It is no answer to these provisions and this philosophy that, happily, having been given that prognosis, I may well, should I choose not to exercise the powers under this Bill, live for seven months, 12 months, two years or however long. It would be wonderful if my doctors were incorrect, but it is my choice, having been given that prognosis. That is what this Bill is about—we have taken days debating this—and it is right and proper that we ensure that that decision is made on a voluntary basis and that there is no coercion. But, once those conditions are satisfied, if I am told by my doctor that that is my prognosis, it should be my choice whether to use the provisions of this Bill.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree with me that one of the international facts that supports entirely the position he is taking is that, in the now 33 jurisdictions where assisted dying is allowed, it is usually the case—I cite one or two—that, following that suggestion by a doctor, or prognosis or however you want to describe it, over a third of those who make the choice he has described then do not use the provision? There is no question that they want to die; they are simply using it almost as an insurance policy.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point, because this Bill is concerned with providing choice. Of course there is no mandatory obligation, but, if you are given this information, you should have the right—it is your life—to decide whether you wish to take advantage of these provisions. In many cases, if it were me or my family, I would argue strongly that there are other options and other things should be done. But it is a choice, and people should have that choice. That is the philosophy and what has guided so many jurisdictions around the world. Many noble Lords do not agree with that, which is their right, but that is what this Bill is all about.