Crime: Firearms

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my policing interests and beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order paper.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, offences involving firearms, excluding air weapons, have fallen by 31% since July 2010. The National Ballistics Intelligence Service regularly assesses the volume of illegal firearms in the UK, but this information is operationally sensitive and is not suitable for release. The National Crime Agency and the police continue to conduct specific operations to disrupt the threats posed by illegal firearms.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, I am grateful for the Answer given by the Minister and intrigued by the fact that on 21 November, in response to another Question on this point asked by my noble friend Lord Rosser, she said:

“Without doing the maths, I cannot give the noble Lord the figures off the top of my head. However, I will certainly write to him with accurate figures”.—[Official Report, 21/11/16; col. 1724.]


I assume from the Answer she has just given that she cannot share the figures that she wrote to my noble friend. Can I put it to her that, if there were 126 illegal arms seized in 2014-15—these are the figures she gave on 21 November—445 seized in 2015-16 and 800 in just four weeks as a result of this joint exercise by the counterterrorism police and the National Crime Agency, this is a situation in which there is an explosion of the problem of illegal firearms and that the Government should do a great deal more?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

What the noble Lord points out is not an explosion in the problem but a revelation in the solution, because that four-week operation showed us that a new approach to intelligence collection and sharing is the way forward. The operation that I think he is referring to—Operation Dragon Root—yielded excellent results.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, most of the illegal firearms smuggled into the UK are from Europe. Can the Minister explain how UK law enforcement agencies can continue to exchange information and intelligence with EU countries about gun smuggling after Brexit without complying with EU data protection laws, which are set and regularly updated by the EU? What are the Government going to compromise on—security or sovereignty?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that I have déjà vu here, because the noble Lord asked me that the other evening when we had a three and a half hour debate on the subject of security and policing between the UK and the EU. As I explained then, and will explain now, co-operation will be not just absolutely key going forward but one of the top priorities for this country.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

Is the Minister aware that, in the past, amnesties have been used in different parts of the United Kingdom but under very strong conditions, as in the context of weapons which have been used to commit a crime? Can any possible amnesties be looked into with great care, as all the circumstances need to be taken fully into account?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is absolutely right that amnesties have been used in the past—most recently in Northern Ireland, if I am not mistaken—and that great care needs to be taken around such an approach.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, of the 800 seized firearms referred to by the noble Lord on the Labour Benches—

[Earl Attlee]

It is my great friend the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey. How many of those firearms were seized from one registered firearms dealer?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I have all sorts of facts and figures but I do not have that one, so I will write to my noble friend on that point.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that figures on the numbers of illegal firearms seized each year are not very meaningful without an estimate of the percentage of firearms illegally imported into the UK that are seized each year? Is she able to tell us whether we are seizing most firearms that are illegally imported or only a very small percentage?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That is a very difficult question to answer in reference to the first Answer that I gave. However, I can give examples of seizures, for example through Operation Dragon Root, during a specific period of time. In the October operation, there were 282 confirmed arrests and the recovery of 833 firearms, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Harris, pointed out. There were also seizures of 169 other weapons, 4,385 rounds of ammunition and over £575,000 worth of cash.

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

My Lords, the operation that my noble friend referred to was indeed a success, and I am sure that the whole House will pay tribute to the police units that were involved. Will my noble friend explain what thinking is being done in government at the moment to reconcile what was an effective national operation against what is a much more localised agenda of policing around the PCCs, who probably would not prioritise such operations?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

What my noble friend is referring to has not only a national element to it but also an international element in terms of the multiagency approach. Of course the NCA has regional operations as well, but in terms of keeping the country safe from a national and international point of view the national agencies are very often involved.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Is there not a distinction between a collector who holds illegal weapons and a criminal who holds illegal weapons, and do the stats that the Minister has produced actually draw that distinction?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There is most certainly a difference between a collector and a criminal, and we discussed this at length in the Policing and Crime Bill. In terms of the arrests and the rounds of ammunition, they certainly will be criminal activities. In terms of the other weapons, there possibly is a distinction. I will try and disaggregate that for the noble Lord, although I will not promise as I did to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser.

Drugs Policy: Departmental Responsibility

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hylton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to transferring responsibility for drugs policy and the rehabilitation of drug users from the Home Office to the Department of Health.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, responsibility for achieving the aims in the drugs strategy is shared across a number of departments. Drug treatment, which will include the rehabilitation of drug users, is the lead responsibility for the Department of Health. Successful delivery of the strategy requires effective governance and accountability, which is provided by the Home Office. There are no plans to transfer overall responsibility for the drugs strategy away from the Home Office.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, I expected a slightly diffuse answer, but is the Minister aware that changes of the kind I suggested are strongly supported by the British Medical Association and the Royal College of Psychiatrists? What is more, they have already been implemented in such countries as Canada, Switzerland and Portugal, with good results. Will the noble Baroness use her personal influence to get policies that reduce harm to drug users and cut the profits of organised crime and pushers that are so necessary given the doubling of deaths from opiates in just four years?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not know how influential I am, but I certainly agree that the Government are absolutely clear that reducing the harms caused by drugs needs to be part of a balanced approach. That means acting at the earliest opportunity to prevent people starting to use drugs in the first place and escalation to more harmful use, and providing evidence-based treatment options that can be tailored to individual need. The noble Lord talked about the rise in certain drug deaths. It is very concerning. PHE will continue to work with the Government and local authorities in delivering tailored, effective responses according to specific local issues. The reasons behind some of the increases in drug-related deaths are multiple and complex, which is why we established an expert group that has made recommendations to curb the number of people dying from drug misuse.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)]

My Lords, a charity called the Nelson Trust goes into prisons to help prisoners with drug rehabilitation. Does the Minister feel that this is the way forward and that we ought to concentrate more on this? By the time prisoners come out, it is often too late to try to treat their addictions.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for that question and respect her great experience in the area of health. It is absolutely right that prisoners should receive treatment for both prevention and their drug use, because when they come out of prison, it is very important that they have recovered from their drug use and the issues associated with it.

[Lord Patel of Bradford (Lab)]

My Lords, between 2001 and 2008, investment in drug treatment increased from £250 million pounds a year to £750 million a year, ring-fenced. This resulted in the number of drug users in treatment rising from 80,000 to 230,000, which had a huge impact on drug misuse, drug-related deaths and acquisitive crime. The last eight years have seen a massive financial clampdown and huge disinvestment from local authorities. What steps are the Government taking to ensure that local authorities do not continue this disinvestment, which is going to reverse all the positive gains, especially in relation to drug-related death and acquisitive crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord raises an interesting point, because there has actually been a reduction in drug misuse among adults and young people compared with a decade ago. It has gone down from 10.5% in 2005-6 to 8.4% in 2015-16. The number of heroin and crack cocaine users in England has also fallen, to 294,000. Among 11 to 15 year-olds—a particularly vulnerable group—drug use has continued to fall since its peak in 2003. On the point about local authority investment in drug treatment, the amount that local authorities spend on treatment and rehabilitation is entirely up to them, because the budgets are devolved to them. Clearly, there are different needs in different areas and it is up to local authorities to deem how that money is spent.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that in April the United Nations challenged 50 years of prohibitionist global drug policy at the UNGASS when it declared that evidence-based public health policy is here to stay? I know that the Minister is aware of the considerable evidence now available of the importance of medical cannabis to tens, if not hundreds of thousands, of very sick, chronically ill patients. If the MHRA is willing to work with the Home Office to develop ways in which cannabis medicine can be made available to these very sick patients, will the Minister enter into discussions on that issue?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness. She and I have had many discussions both within the Chamber and outside it on this very issue. I recognise the value of Sativex in the treatment of multiple sclerosis and other types of pain relief. The MHRA is open to considering marketing approval applications for other medicinal cannabis products, should a product be developed. As happened in the case of Sativex, the Home Office will consider issuing a licence to enable trials of any new medicine provided that it complies with appropriate ethical approvals.

[Lord Rennard (LD)]

My Lords, last week a young man was shot dead outside a Liverpool chip shop in what was believed to be a drug-related incident. The Merseyside police say that they need many more officers to tackle the problems caused by gangs supplying illegal drugs. Does the Minister agree that it is also essential that we do more to break the link between those dependent on illegal drugs and the criminal gangs by increasing support and treatment for people with drug addictions rather than reducing it, as many local authorities are currently being forced to do as a result of reductions in expenditure imposed upon them by central government?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I was actually talking to police officers in that area on Friday. Local authorities can spend what they deem appropriate on drug treatment and rehabilitation but I agree with the noble Lord’s first point, that breaking the link between the criminal element of drugs and the users is essential.

Brexit: UK-EU Security (EUC Report)

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I take this opportunity to thank the EU Home Affairs Sub-Committee for producing its report, Brexit: Future UK-EU Security and Police Co-operation. In answer to some of the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I say that the Government will respond specifically to the report. I am grateful to those who have spoken during today’s long debate and in particular to the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, for securing it.

A wide range of views have been expressed from across the Chamber, but I am reassured by the broad consensus across the House that the Government should continue a high level of co-operation with our EU neighbours on security and policing matters. The Government are committed to strong practical co-operation on security, law enforcement and criminal justice now and after we leave. We will work with our European partners as we negotiate our exit to find solutions that promote security in the UK, across Europe and beyond. I am very pleased that my noble friend Lord Wasserman is optimistic about the future.

The perpetrators of crime and terrorism do not respect borders, and the threat that they pose is becoming increasingly transnational. We know that international organised crime groups exploit vulnerabilities such as inadequate law enforcement and criminal justice structures. Furthermore, threats such as cybercrime and online child sexual exploitation are by definition international in a technically interconnected world. In the face of these common threats, it is difficult to see how it would be in anyone’s interest for exit negotiations to result in a reduction in the effectiveness of security, law enforcement and criminal justice co-operation.

Our relationship with the EU currently centres on a number of practical co-operation measures that have been developed in response to the changing shape of the EU and the evolving threat of international crime. We continue to value our co-operation and information sharing through measures such as the European arrest warrant, which so many noble Lords have mentioned, together with Europol, the European criminal record information system and the second-generation Schengen information system, in our effort to fight crime and prevent terrorism. The UK will continue to participate fully in all these measures while we remain a member of the EU.

Leaving will of course mean that our relationship with the EU will have to change. In the UK we are examining the mechanisms now in place to support practical co-operation in the fight against crime and terrorism, to help to identify potential options for how we might work with our EU partners in future. Looking ahead, we need to negotiate the best deal that we can with Europe, including thinking about the tools and mechanisms for co-operation with EU member states that help to keep all European citizens safe. The UK’s future access to the practical mechanism through which we co-operate with the EU will form part of the wider exit negotiations. The UK is in a unique position, having taken a leading role in developing—

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

The Minister says that when we leave the EU our relationship with the institutions in the justice and home affairs field will have to change. Will they have to change because the Government want them to change, or in her view will it be because our European partners will insist that they change?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, they will change because that is an inevitable fact of leaving the EU. We will no longer be members of the EU.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

That is not an answer.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Well, that is the answer that I am giving the noble Lord. Perhaps at this late hour he will indulge me until I get to the end, and he might be a bit more satisfied by the time I have finished.

Looking ahead, we need to negotiate the best deal that we can with Europe, including thinking about these tools and mechanisms with EU member states that help to keep European citizens safe. We are in a unique position, having taken a lead role in developing the practical co-operation measures now in place across the EU, and our expertise and drive for high standards are valued by our EU partners. That is why we will not seek to adopt a model currently enjoyed by another country; we are looking for a bespoke approach that works for the UK as well as for the EU.

Those negotiations will be complex and lengthy, and it would not be appropriate to pre-empt the outcome. I know that many noble Lords are anxious to understand the detail of the relationship that we may agree with the EU but, although the Government are keen to provide clarity where we can, it is also important that we do nothing to undermine our negotiating position.

What is absolutely clear is that this Government are committed to ongoing co-operation to keep all European citizens safe—a point that noble Lords have made—and that the desire to do what is necessary to keep our people safe is not one-sided. My ministerial colleagues have spoken to their counterparts in several EU countries, and I am reassured to hear that there is a shared understanding of the importance of effective ongoing co-operation.

I will now respond in more detail to some of the points that noble Lords have raised this evening. All noble Lords have talked about our relationship with Europol. As noble Lords have said, Europol’s prime objective is to strengthen and facilitate co-operation in preventing and combating serious organised crime and terrorism. By providing a platform for members to share intelligence and information, and through a strong analysis function, it offers unparalleled opportunities to prevent serious crime and protect EU citizens, including those in the UK. The UK plays a lead role in Europol; indeed, the UK staffs one of the largest national desks in the organisation and is one of the biggest contributors of information to Europol systems. We value our participation, and will continue to play a role while we remain in the EU. The recent decision to seek to opt into the new Europol measure is testament to that.

As I said, our future practical co-operation will be subject to negotiation, and it is too early to say what shape our relationship with the agency will take after we leave the EU. The models of co-operation enjoyed by other countries, such as the US, illustrate the breadth of agreements that can be achieved with Europol, but the UK will be in a unique position as a former EU member with our history of working with Europol, so we will not be looking to replicate any other nation’s model.

The noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, raised the point that while the report was in preparation a bespoke arrangement was agreed for Denmark, and wanted to know more about it and how relevant it might be for the UK’s future. Denmark’s situation is different from the position that the UK will be in once we leave the EU. It is a member state that does not participate in the new Europol measure but is seeking a special agreement from within the EU. Obviously, that presents a different set of challenges for the parties concerned. The Government are exploring options for Europol once the UK has left the EU, but it is early to speculate on what they might look like.

The noble Baroness and other noble Lords also asked about the relevance of the 2014 opt-in decision. The justice and home affairs opt-out in 2014 gave us the opportunity to consider the value of certain measures to the UK. While that decision provides a reference point, it is important to be clear that the situation following the outcome of the EU referendum means that the context is now different. To state the obvious, we will no longer be a member of the EU so, unlike the 2014 decision, the question now is not whether we seek to rejoin certain measures as a member state; instead, we need to consider how we should interact with the EU security measures from outside the EU.

Quite a few noble Lords asked about Prüm in the context of my right honourable friend David Davis in the other place. During debate, he said that we were making new arrangements for data-sharing. The Prime Minister has been clear that one of her 12 negotiating objectives is to continue to work with the EU to preserve European security, fight terrorism and uphold justice across Europe. She is quite clear about that. As part of the negotiations, we will discuss with the EU and its member states how best to continue co-operation on security, law enforcement and criminal justice.

The noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, also asked about what we should read into the fact that the Government’s White Paper says that in paragraph 12.2 the EU institutions are listed among the entities that will be part of a “phased process of implementation”. The Prime Minister has been clear that she wants us,

“to have reached an agreement about our future partnership by the time the two year Article 50 process has concluded. From that point onwards, we”,

expect a,

“phased process of implementation, in which”,

Britain and the EU institutions and member states prepare for the new arrangements that exist between us. It will,

“give businesses enough time to plan and prepare for those new arrangements”.

It is in no one’s interests for there to be a cliff edge for business or, indeed, for the rest of the country, as we change from our existing relationship to a new partnership with the EU, but that does not mean that we will seek some form of unlimited transitional status. That would not be good for Britain and it would not be good for the EU. As the White Paper says,

“the interim arrangements we rely upon are likely to be a matter of negotiation”.

The noble Baroness also talked about the precedents for adjudication mechanisms and international arbitration in trade agreements. Again, we need to negotiate the best deal that we can for Europe, including thinking about the tools and mechanisms for co-operation with EU member states.

The noble Baroness also asked about the great repeal Bill and made the point about the Government’s intention that, wherever practical and appropriate, the same rules and laws will apply on the day after we leave the EU as they did before. She asked about how I envisaged the process of converting EU law into domestic law would work in the area of criminal justice. All government departments are currently reviewing the issues and opportunities arising from exit, including the requirements for legislation in addition to the great repeal Bill. We will bring forward a White Paper on the Bill, which will set out our approach to give effect to withdrawal on the domestic statute book, and we will ensure that it is published in sufficient time to allow Parliament to digest its contents in advance of introduction of the Bill in the next Session.

The noble Baroness also asked about Article 50 negotiations. Under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union, the arrangements relating to the UK’s withdrawal are to be made between the UK and the EU in a withdrawal treaty. The content of the treaty will be a matter for negotiation and our efforts will be focused on getting the best deal possible for the UK in negotiations with the EU.

The noble Lord, Lord Soley, made the point about needing to have a special relationship with the EU and needing new mechanisms for co-operation. As the Government have made clear, one of the 12 objectives of the negotiations ahead will be to establish a new relationship which enables the UK and the EU to continue practical co-operation with other member states to tackle cross-border crime and keep our people safe. We are in a unique position; we are a valued partner in the EU and have played a leading role in the development of a number of the EU’s security measures that are in place. That is why we will not be following any other nation’s model.

The noble Lord also asked how we will operate outside the ECJ’s jurisdiction. The Prime Minister has been absolutely clear that after withdrawal—as the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, articulated—our laws will not be made in Brussels but in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast. The judges interpreting those laws will not sit in Luxembourg but in courts in this country. The authority of EU law in Britain will end. Until we exit the EU, we remain a full member of the Union and the CJEU will continue its work.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about sovereignty versus security and suggested that we face a choice between the two. That is possibly overly simplistic. The UK is in a unique starting position, and we will need to negotiate the best deal we can with Europe while recognising that this process will not be brief or straightforward.

The noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, asked how we will secure a good enough relationship on Europol—that is, better than other third countries. We absolutely value the role of Europol in helping law enforcement agencies to co-ordinate investigation on cross-border crime but, looking ahead, we need to negotiate the best deal we can with Europe. We are in a unique position, but it is very early to speculate on what that will look like.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, made the point that the EAW is worth signing up to the ECJ and surrendering sovereignty for. As always, he set out a typically forensic and well-informed analysis on the question of sovereignty and the UK’s future relationship with the EU, especially as pertaining to the European arrest warrant. I listened carefully to what he said, but it is too early to speculate at this stage on exactly what our relationship with the ECJ will be after we leave the EU.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, asked how we create a flexible future relationship with the EU. Are we underestimating the challenge of doing so? However, as the Prime Minister has made clear, one of the 12 objectives for the negotiations ahead will be to establish a new relationship which enables the UK and the EU to continue practical co-operation with other member states to tackle cross-border crime and keep our people safe.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, talked about trafficking and drugs and the fact that crime is international. In the modern age, we must cede some sovereignty and work with international institutions. I refer back to my answer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, on sovereignty versus security not being a binary choice. The Prime Minister has been clear that, after withdrawal, our laws will be made in Westminster, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast, and the judges interpreting those laws will sit not in Luxembourg but in courts in this country.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, identified the value of SIS II, Prüm and the EAW. He asked what is stopping us from remaining part of these and if there is nothing why the Government do not want us to join them. The UK’s exit from the EU will put us in a unique position, seeking co-operation on security and law enforcement as a former EU member. We must now work with the EU to agree the way we co-operate on both security and law enforcement after we leave. Although the Government are absolutely committed to future co-operation, I cannot set out a unilateral position ahead of negotiations.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, talked of the risk of a cliff edge on the day we leave, with no plan B. We need to agree budgetary contribution and dispute resolution and we need a living solution to avoid a static relationship. The noble Lord identified some of the issues that would need to be considered before and during the negotiations. The UK and the EU have a shared interest in effective co-operation while we remain a member state and after we leave, and the negotiations will need to consider the full range of options. It will be in all our interests to avoid any cliff edge in negotiating with the EU. We will need to reach agreement on a range of matters such as dispute resolution, and we will seek a relationship that is capable of responding to the changing threats that we face.

I am running out of time and I have three more noble Lords to respond to, which I will do in writing. In fact, it is two noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in respect of his final point.

The Government recognise the challenge in negotiating a new relationship. However, we are absolutely committed to finding innovative solutions to enable us to continue to work together to keep our citizens safe and to achieve collective security in Europe and globally. Finally, I again thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar.

Brexit: Customs and Border Staff

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate they have made of the number of additional public employees needed to meet the requirements of Brexit, in particular in customs and border control.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the White Paper published last week set out the Government’s priorities and the broad strategy for exiting the EU. There is a number of options as to how EU migration and customs checks might work once we have exited the EU. We are considering these options, so it would be wrong to set out a further position at this stage.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, half of Britain’s trade is currently within the single market, so presumably customs checks and the space needed for them will have to be considerably expanded. Two-thirds of visitors come from the EU and the EEA, so I assume that the long queues that we already have at the external border for people going through hard border controls will be immensely lengthened and that we will need to treble the number of border staff. Are the Government already beginning to plan for the extra space and staff they need? If they cannot recruit enough, perhaps we will need to recruit border agency people from eastern Europe.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government will certainly be prepared, if need be, in the way that the noble Lord said. However, the advent of e-passport gates at airports has made it quicker to get through the border, and of course the facial recognition checks at those gates have proved to be very efficient.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, if there is a range of options, there must surely be a range of costs—guestimates—available to the Government. What are they? Perhaps the Minister can help me but I cannot recall the costs used by the Brexiteers during the referendum campaign. Perhaps she can refresh my memory.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, of course there will be a range of options, none of which am I in a position to cost or comment on today, but they will become clearer. I am sure that the noble Lord has read the White Paper on the broad principles as we go forward.

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that removing exit checks from our borders in 1998 was a huge mistake? Does she also agree that, Brexit or no Brexit, we now need to bring back immediately exit checks to our borders so that we are on top of things from a security point of view and from the point of view of being in control of immigration, with EU and non-EU citizens being scanned in and scanned out? In fact, I could recommend a whole list of Indian IT companies that could do the job.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord. He is right about exit checks. They were reintroduced last year and will provide some very useful information, not least on immigration.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell me how many additional public employees are employed by the Government to answer questions from people who do not accept the result of the referendum?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The figures differ at various times. I can say to my noble friend—and I am sure he will agree with me—that we will be well equipped to deal with our borders when the time comes.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, what exactly do the Government mean when they say that under Brexit we will have control of our borders? Does it mean that people who should not do so will not enter this country? If so, how will the Government achieve that, bearing in mind that we are not in a position to stop illegal immigration at present—as the road haulage industry makes clear—despite the present level of co-operation with the French authorities?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there is more than just the French authorities to consider, although we have worked very hard and in good co-operation with the French. Control of our borders means just that—control of who comes in and who goes out. However, I accept that no system is perfect.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, would not the introduction of ID cards be the cheapest way to try to deal with this problem? Would not the Government’s time be better spent looking at the proposals and seeing how effective they would be in introducing controls on our borders?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

In short, no. We have moved beyond the ID card in terms of the amount of information we have on passenger movement. Technology now has almost negated the need for what the noble Lord talks about, which was quite some time ago.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, there has been a 25% reduction in funding per passenger for the UK Border Force since 2011. The Minister mentioned that e-gates—automatic gates—at airports for EEA nationals mean that the reduction in funding has not resulted in a lessening of security. Can she say what will happen when we leave the European Union and EEA nationals will no longer be subject to this, rather worryingly termed, soft border regime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the number of full-time Border Force employees has ranged from approximately 7,600 to 8,100 in the past few years. As I said earlier, there may have been a reduction perhaps last year in workforce because it is within that range but e-gates and other infrastructure improvements have improved the system. In 2016-17 we invested £68 million in capital for infrastructure improvements.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, have the Government worked out how much we will be saving by not having to send an endless stream of Ministers and their civil servants over to Brussels to nod through its useless and damaging legislation and by not having to enact it thereafter? Did not the British people vote specifically for more border control, which therefore becomes something of a priority, does it not?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The British public certainly did vote for more border control and this Government are very clear that we need to balance immigration with the skills that we need to provide services in this country. In terms of the savings, experts have given all sorts of figures and I will not at this point try to guess.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that asking rational and legitimate questions about process is not the same as not accepting the result of the referendum?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Asking rational questions is perfectly legitimate; noble Lords tend to ask rational questions, and that is totally legitimate. There is a wide range of views in both your Lordships’ House and the other place but I think we all accept the outcome of the referendum.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that a UK border official at Charles de Gaulle airport once told me that when a passport on occasion appears in front of them that is illegal, they give it back to the French authorities and that passport often reappears, carried by somebody else, in order to try to get access to the UK?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Viscount tells me something that I did not know, but the e-gates are actually very accurate at marrying up the person with the identity in the passport.

Brexit: Residence Rights

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

Order Paper.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I will now give the Answer on my answer paper. We continue to make the application process quicker and easier. In October 2016, the facility for single EEA applicants to apply for documents certifying permanent residence status online was launched. We are currently working to expand this service further. In addition, the date on which applicants are deemed to have acquired permanent residence status is clearly notified to them so they are clear on when they can pursue an application for British citizenship.

[Baroness Ludford]

My Lords, recuperating myself, I am most grateful for that Answer. I am gratified if there have indeed been improvements, because given the Prime Minister’s claim about making the country fairer, I wonder how it is fair to make EU nationals—who have an automatic right to permanent residence after five years, as the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, confirmed in a debate last week—go through what many have said is a horrendous process to get a document from the Home Office attesting to that right. I have been told by the BMA that people cannot even fill out the 85-page document online. Can the Minister assure me that accounts of people being asked for reams of documentation, or receiving letters wrongly telling them that they have to leave immediately, are at an end?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I say to the noble Baroness, the system has been vastly improved. Having acquired permanent residence under the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006, an individual must have 12 months free from immigration restrictions before pursuing an application for British citizenship. The inclusion of the date on which an applicant is deemed to have acquired permanent residence helps to inform applicants about the point at which they are eligible to apply for British citizenship. That removes the uncertainty surrounding the process and the cost to the applicant of submitting an application that might be refused on the basis that they have not been free of immigration restrictions for the required time.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, the Question is actually about residency rather than nationality. In order to get residency status, people have to show that they have comprehensive sickness insurance. EU nationals were never told about that when they came here. In fact, most of them are eligible to use the NHS. Therefore, many of them will not qualify under the present rules. When the residency issue is finally agreed, will the Government agree to look at waiving the requirement for comprehensive sickness insurance so that people will be able to stay here under permanent residency?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness raises a valid point about comprehensive sickness insurance, because not everyone is required to have it. People who are not economically active, obviously, and students have to show that they are self-sufficient in that sense. But I am very happy to clarify that in a letter, which I will make sure is in the Library, because it can be confusing.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, what preparations do the Government understand that Brussels is making to confirm permanent residence for the 1.2 million British citizens living in the EU? As there may be some 3.5 million EU citizens living here, which makes mutual recognition more in their interest than ours, why do the Government think that Mrs Merkel and Mr Tusk turned down our offer for exactly such an arrangement?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I cannot read the mind of either Mrs Merkel or Mr Tusk, but I think the Prime Minister was very wise to say that she would protect the status of EU nationals who are already living in the UK, as long as the status of British nationals in other member states was protected as well. She was absolutely wise to say that, because we would have been left high and dry otherwise.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, yesterday I was in Berlin, talking about Brexit among other things, and one of my German colleagues from the Bundestag told me that in a recent citizenship ceremony in his constituency, in Minden, for the first time Brits were the largest group getting a German passport, therefore becoming dual nationals. Is the Minister surprised by this fact and does she agree that it is a sensible course of action and likely to become the norm for our fellow citizens who are suffering such uncertainty?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am not entirely sure it is a sensible course of action or indeed necessary. I could get an Irish passport, but I have not done so. I am quite confident that as negotiations proceed, a sensible way forward will be found.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, in my own city of Bristol, there are a very large number of EU nationals, who were told recently that on the present rate of performance it would take the Home Office something like 128 years to process demands for British citizenship. Could she comment also on the fact that the bureaucratic process is making very many of the elderly people who have lived in this country for 30 or 40 years anxious and upset, and leaving them in a state of total confusion, because they are not aware of what papers they need or how to get them, and because they have not necessarily kept evidence over all the years that they have been in the UK? These citizens have contributed hugely to our economic performance. What is the Minister going to do to reassure them about their future?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I have said a couple of times now, we are ensuring that the online process is a lot more efficient now. People can bring their passport into post offices or other recognised places for verification purposes and get it back quickly, so they are not without a passport while their applications are being processed. I do not know where the person from Bristol got the figure of 128 years to process applications, so I cannot really comment on that.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister advise us how many of the almost 70,000 European Union citizens working in the National Health Service have permanent residence? If they have permanent residence, does that mean that after Brexit, they will be able to remain and work in our health service?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Anybody who has been living here for five years and meets the treaty obligation has permanent residence rights. Will they have them after we leave the European Union? I am not part of the negotiations and I really cannot provide a running commentary on the discussions that are taking place, but it is the Prime Minister’s first stated objective that she wishes to protect the rights of EU nationals living here.

Child Migrants: Italy

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Durham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of recent analysis by UNICEF of the growth in the number of unaccompanied child migrants to Italy, what measures they are taking under section 67 of the Immigration Act 2016 to relocate child refugees from Italy to the United Kingdom.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, in 2016 we transferred more than 900 unaccompanied asylum-seeking children to the UK from Europe. More children will be transferred under the Immigration Act and we will continue to meet our obligations under the Dublin regulation. We have a long-standing secondee in Italy, who is based in the Italian Dublin unit. We will announce in due course the process and criteria for transferring more children to the UK from Europe.

[The Lord Bishop of Durham]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. During 2016, 25,800 unaccompanied and separated children arrived in Italy. The UK took only three from Italy during 2016. Would the Minister confirm that, in future, the vulnerability of the child, and in particular the danger of exploitation and trafficking, will continue to be the central criteria, and that there will be a strong enough team in both Italy and Greece for future transfers?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate is absolutely right to raise the issue of vulnerability, which has always been paramount in the Government’s consideration of children, particularly unaccompanied children, who are travelling to this country—and not only that but their vulnerability when they arrive here. As he will know, the Government, through a Written Ministerial Statement, are committed to publishing a strategy for safeguarding unaccompanied asylum-seeking and refugee children in England.

On the capacity in Italy that the right reverend Prelate asked about, yes, we have a long-standing secondee there—and NGOs such as the UNHCR and IOM are present there. In addition to that, they are part of the EU relocation scheme.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, given that the Minister has said that vulnerability is the paramount question in the Government’s mind, what progress has been made on the 10,000 children that Europol said had disappeared on the continent and the reports in the British press that some 360 children had disappeared here—as the right reverend Prelate said, almost certainly into the hands of traffickers and people who will use them for the purposes of exploitation?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the question of children who have disappeared here has been brought up previously in your Lordships’ House and, if we ever get any information or reports of such things, obviously we will follow them up. To date we have not had representation from local authorities or the police that this is the case. As for intervening in other countries where children may have disappeared, as I have said before at this Dispatch Box, while a child is in another country they are the responsibility of that jurisdiction. We are there to help and we will help when asked, but we cannot unilaterally take these things into our hands.

[Baroness Jowell (Lab)]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the right reverend Prelate in pursuit of this issue, about which there is concern right across this House. I remind the Minister that Italy is where the largest number of refugee and unaccompanied children are, together with Greece. These are children who, last summer, had their faces disfigured by mosquito bites and who now have to deal with intolerable and freezing conditions. So the situation is urgent.

In a helpful Written Answer to me on 23 November, the Minister drew on the Home Secretary’s reference to many hundreds of children coming to this country in the following few weeks—and she has updated us on that today. Will she give us further information on the number of children in Italy and Greece who are being assessed, and will she also make it clear to the House that there is no question that, at the end of this financial year, support for these children will cease?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There are several questions there. The noble Baroness continued the theme of the noble Lord, Lord Alton. He spoke of children whom we would dearly like to assist who are living in conditions that are less than satisfactory in European countries. I cannot stress enough that we can help only when the country in question gives us leave to come and help. We have got a long-standing secondee in Italy. There are also NGOs in Italy such as UNHCR.

As to specifying the number, the Government have committed to transferring a specified number of refugee children to the UK from within Europe. They will specify that number in due course.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, unaccompanied child migrants are likely to have been subjected to significant trauma. Can the Minister tell the House what assistance the Government are giving to ensure that accompanied child migrants receive appropriate psychological support, whether they are in Europe or in the UK?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think I touched on this in my response to the right reverend Prelate, but the noble Lord is absolutely right to raise this subject. He will know that the Government already have in place a comprehensive strategy for safeguarding children, including unaccompanied asylum-seeking and refugee children, who arrive here severely traumatised and in some cases require a package of care. The Immigration Minister’s joint Written Statement with the Minister of State for Vulnerable Children and Families on 1 November committed the Government to publishing a strategy for the safeguarding of unaccompanied asylum-seeking and refugee children in England, and the children who have been identified for transfer from Europe.

The good news is that we have already been working with local authorities, charities and other organisations to make sure that plans are in place to give these children the immediate support they need—which I think was what the noble Lord was alluding to.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend update the House on the agreement made with Turkey to take unaccompanied children and other refugees from Greece? Could this be extended to Italy?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend has got me on an update on the position on Turkey. If she does not mind, I will write to her.

Taqiyya and Al Hijra

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, as part of their strategy against Islamist terrorism, they will encourage United Kingdom Muslim leaders to re-examine the Muslim tenets of Taqiyya and Al Hijra.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, as I stated before Christmas, freedom of speech and religion are core values that make our country great. Britain is home to diverse communities, which are free to practise their religion in accordance with the law. The Government’s strategy for tackling Islamist terrorism is firmly based on strengthening our partnership with communities, civil society groups and faith organisations across the country.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness.

I am advised that Taqiyya allows Muslims living outside the Muslim world to be deceptive in their promotion of Islam and that Al Hijra encourages Muslims to emulate Muhammad’s emigration from Mecca to Medina, which he then took over.

Do the Government agree with the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, who I am glad to see is in his place, who said recently that religious leaders must stand up and take responsibility for extremists who do things in the name of their religion; that in order to defeat terrorism, we need to understand the mind-set of those who perpetrate it; and that it is not helpful to go on claiming that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam?

Is it not time we had an open, national debate about these matters, preferably led by our peaceful Muslim friends?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I most certainly agree with the most reverend Primate, who speaks so much sense on so many things. I also agree that Daesh has nothing to do with Islam. As for the noble Lord’s original Question, both Taqiyya and Al Hijra are very old terms in Islam. We can think of all sorts of terms in all sorts of religions that can seek to misrepresent those religions, and we must take that in context and not allow poisonous twisting of religion to disrupt our society.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that, according to the authorities that I have consulted, Taqiyya refers to the Prophet’s flight from Mecca to Medina and is about concealing your own religious beliefs when confronted with the threat of persecution and death? Surely it would be as wrong to criticise Taqiyya as it would be to criticise Jews who concealed their identity in Nazi Germany, or Christians in Raqqa. Is there not a great danger that the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, will be interpreted as meaning that Islam promotes deceit and lies, and is it not important that he should make clear that is not what he meant?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with my noble friend, and as he was asking that question I was thinking about Catholics during the Reformation and Jews during the Second World War. Sometimes religions have to preserve themselves not by denial but by concealment on pain of death.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, since the noble Lord is so familiar with the Koran, he will know that it is addressed directly to the believers, and that there are no intermediaries between the Koranic texts and the believers. It is also the case that many of the so-called Muslim terrorists have probably never read the Koran. What is important is not to define terrorism in terms of a faith, but rather to think about why some of the brightest and best young Muslims turn to terrorism, and look at the roots of despair that cause that.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness is addressing her question to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, but I hope I can answer it. We all know that terrorism and terrorist ideals have absolutely nothing to do with faith; they are used to stir up hatred against different faiths. In fact, some of the biggest victims of Daesh have been Muslims.

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, first, would the Minister agree that the term Taqiyya came into being at a time of terrible persecution? It did not get invented because people did not want to be difficult or awkward. Of my friends who escaped Amin’s torture, some left dressed as women. You would not say these Christians wanted simply to be deceptive; things have to be read in context. Secondly, the lecture by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury was a one-hour lecture in France; he is more than happy to repeat it if your Lordships’ House wants.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am sure that this House would be very happy and more educated for hearing from the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury. I thank the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York for putting the whole thing into context. Fleeing persecution is not the same thing as denying your religion.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, we should leave to one side what appear to me to be blatant attempts to stir up hatred against the Muslim community. Instead, I want to ask the Minister a question on what she said in her Answer about strengthening partnerships with communities. Do the Government agree with the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, David Anderson QC, the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the Home Affairs Select Committee that there should be an independent review into the Government’s Prevent strategy, and if not why not?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will know that we regularly review Prevent. In fact, Prevent has been reviewed quite recently, and has been seen to help those who might be targeted by people who wish to put poisonous ideologies into their heads—in other words, the victims of these people—to turn their lives around.

[Baroness Uddin]

My Lords, given that the meaning of the two concepts has been well laid out before us by the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, and their relationship to one another, I wonder whether the intention of the Question is to put British Muslims on notice. Therefore, does the Minister accept that terrorism has no home in any religion and that, in his Question, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, is either being naive or it is a wilful act of incitement to Islamophobic prejudice with the presumed intent to insult Islam?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not know what is behind the noble Lord’s Question. This is his second Question of the year and perhaps in a future debate he will explain. However, yes, terrorism and religion do not sit together. No religious text promotes terrorism, and terrorism just seeks to twist what our faith teaches us.

Brexit: Hate Crimes

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, we are working very closely with the police and community organisations to monitor any changes in hate crime levels. One of the first things that the Home Secretary did in July last year was to publish a comprehensive new hate crime action plan to drive forward work to tackle hate crime. The Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have both said on numerous occasions that there is no place in the UK for hate crime.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I am not sure that that fully addresses my Question. All of us want to maintain good relations with our EU neighbours as we move forward on Brexit. We do not want another spike in hate crime, as we saw following the referendum, or the attacks on judges following the court decision. This week the Prime Minister said that,

“every stray word and every hyped up media report is going to make it harder for us to get the right deal for Britain”.

Did the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, not get the memo? Can the noble Baroness confirm whether the Prime Minister has conveyed the Government’s concern to those sections of the media to which she alluded, as we all agree that such histrionic reports can only damage the interests and the reputation of the UK?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness makes a very valid point in terms of the spike in hate crimes that we saw last year following the referendum on our membership of the EU. Some of the spikes in hate crime that we saw were quite unexpected, particularly as regards the Polish community. I know that the Home Secretary is today meeting consular staff from all the EU embassies. After the referendum last year and the spike in hate crime, we engaged very quickly with the ambassadors, and they now have a single point of contact. The noble Baroness is mouthing “media” to me across the Dispatch Box and I will get to that. The point she makes is very important: we all have a duty to behave in a responsible way. However, it is through society being not just tolerant but welcoming of the various communities who live in our country that we will make progress, and the media are part and parcel of that.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on emphasising how important it is that we all behave in a responsible way. But can she think of a single precedent of when Ministers have been asked to answer a hypothetical Question in connection with a hypothetical outcome? Is it not extraordinary that it is in order to ask a Question of this nature?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is hypothetical but I hope I can reassure my noble friend that the Government are prepared and have learned the lessons from some of the events we have seen in the last year. Again, to go back to the noble Baroness’s Question, some of the language has been quite inflammatory, both in the media and from some members of the community following the EU referendum. I think that both as a society and as a Government, we are prepared, and we are engaged consistently and constantly with representatives of the various communities across the country.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, the latest crime figures show an increase of about 200 hate crimes a week in 2015-16 compared with the previous year. There has been a 40% increase in hate crime since 2013-14. This is not a spike but a trend and police action is simply addressing the symptoms. What assessment have the Government made of the causes of these increases and do they believe, as we do, that the increase in populism and nationalism is behind these significant and worrying increases?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I heard various tales post-referendum about the various communities—

[A noble Lord]

Pre-referendum.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will get to the point about pre-referendum, because in fact the numbers of hate crimes reported are now down to pre-referendum levels. The reasons behind some of the hate crime were many and varied. The Polish community, for probably the first time in its history in this country, experienced in Hammersmith an unprecedented attack, and the Polish centre in Hammersmith was one of the first centres to benefit from the community demonstration project funding. As I say, the reasons that motivate people to provoke hatred against other people are many and varied, and it is generally based on certain characteristics of those people and those communities, and it has gone down to pre-referendum levels since then.

[Lord Ouseley (CB)]

My Lords, on 24 June we were all shocked by the level of responses of hate demonstrated by the recorded and reported incidents. I declare an interest in my work as chair of Kick It Out, where we monitor—and have done for the last 23 years—hate incidents that are at the lower level of everyday abuse. There is nothing new about the level of hatred that exists within our society. We have to tackle the issue of prejudice, which we are not doing sufficiently. To blame Brexit as a cause of what we saw on 24 June and since is delusional. Quite frankly, in the context of racial abuse, you cannot blame the levels of homophobic abuse and abuse of disabled people that we are witnessing specifically on Brexit. How are we taking action to effectively tackle prejudice, which is what feeds bigotry and hatred?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord raises a very important point, which is that it was not Brexit per se that was the cause of this hatred but Brexit was used as an occasion to promote prejudice and hatred. The Government have done many things since 2010 to try to tackle this. I mentioned the hate crime action plan that the Home Secretary produced upon becoming Home Secretary. We have made changes to legislation that offer further protection for transgender and disabled people, and those have led to the first convictions for the offence of stirring up hatred on grounds of sexual orientation. We have also improved the police recording of hate crime. Forces now capture data on all five of the monitored hate crime strands. We have also recently launched a funding scheme to help protect places of worship from hate crime and to tackle hate crime at a local level.

[Lord Blair of Boughton (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that drawing the line between hate crime and the protection of free speech is one of the most difficult jobs that the police service has to do? In the event of difficulties following this judgment, will she ask the Home Secretary to support police action, perhaps slightly more quickly than the Lord Chancellor did on the last occasion?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord that there is a distinction. How the police operate is of course up to the police, but we certainly support them.

[Lord Kinnock (Lab)]

Is the Minister satisfied with the level of punishment of perpetrators of hate crime and with the provision for education of such people? Is it not clear that, unless and until those guilty of hate crime are taught a lesson in both senses of the term, they are likely to continue with their poisonous attitude?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am satisfied with the level of punishment. The noble Lord raises a point that was mentioned in previous Questions today—that is, education. We engage the Anne Frank Trust in going into schools, which is an incredibly important initiative. It is essential not to forget what happened in the past. We always say that it will never happen again but it does, and for children to have at the forefront of their minds man’s inhumanity to man in the past helps us in the future.

Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Codes C, D and H) Order 2016

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 22 November 2016 be approved.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, this order, laid in draft before the House on 22 November 2016, will bring into effect three revised codes of practice issued under Section 66 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, which I shall call PACE from now on: Code C, which concerns the detention, treatment and questioning of persons detained under PACE; Code H, which concerns the detention, treatment and questioning of persons detained under terrorism provisions; and Code D, which concerns the identification of suspects by witnesses and biometric data, for example, fingerprints, DNA and photographs. I will briefly describe what the PACE codes are, how these revised codes come before us today and outline the changes they introduce.

For England and Wales, the statutory provisions of PACE set out the core framework of police powers to detect and investigate crime, and require the Secretary of State to issue codes of practice. The eight accompanying codes of practice, A to F, do not create powers but provide rules and procedures for the police to follow when exercising their powers. Together, PACE and the codes establish important safeguards for individuals, which are designed to strike a balance between the need for police to have powers to tackle crime on the one hand and the need for safeguards for suspects and other members of the public on the other. In order to maintain this balance, we regularly update the codes—for example, as we change primary legislation—in the light of new decisions by the courts and to promote developments in operational policing practice.

The three codes before us today were published in draft format in March 2016 for statutory consultation in accordance with Section 67 of PACE. The consultation, which was also open to the public, ran for eight weeks, and the bodies that the Secretary of State is required to consult in accordance with Section 67(4) of PACE, and others, were invited to comment. These others included the Crown Prosecution Service, Liberty—I see the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, here today—Justice and the Youth Justice Board. The drafts, together with an invitation to the public at large to respond, were also published on GOV.UK. A total of 18 responses were received, which is normal for this type of consultation.

In accordance with Section 67 of PACE, the revised codes were laid before this House and in another place together with the draft order and Explanatory Memorandum. Yesterday, the order was approved in Committee in another place, and subject to the order being approved by this House, the three codes will come into force 21 days after the date the order is signed.

The main revision to PACE Code C is to expressly permit the use of live-link communications technology for interpreters. The changes enable interpretation services to be provided by interpreters based at remote locations and allow access to be shared by forces throughout England and Wales. This will avoid interpreters having to travel to individual police stations, and improve the availability of interpreters for all languages. By reducing delays in the investigation, it will enable a more streamlined and cost-effective approach to the administration of justice. The revisions include safeguards for suspects to ensure, as far as practicable, that the fairness of proceedings are not prejudiced by the interpreter not being physically present with the suspect. The provisions therefore require the interpreter’s physical presence unless specified conditions are satisfied and allow live-link interpretation.

Revisions to Code C also reflect the amendment to PACE made by the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015 that defines a “juvenile” for the purpose of detention under PACE as someone under the age of 18, rather than under the age of 17. This resulted from a government review of the way in which 17 year-olds were treated under PACE and the codes. The review concluded that the age at which a person should be treated as an adult under PACE should be raised from 17 to 18. This accords with the age-related jurisdiction of youth courts and other criminal justice legislation applicable to children.

New provisions also support Section 38(6) of PACE, which requires juveniles who are not released on bail after being charged to be moved to local authority accommodation pending appearance at court. The revisions point out that the certificate given to the court in accordance with Section 38(7) must show why the juvenile was kept at a police station and require these cases to be monitored and supervised by an inspector or above. Separate measures in the Policing and Crime Bill ensure that outstanding provisions of PACE that continue to treat 17 year-olds as adults are amended.

New provisions in Code C permit an appropriate adult to be removed from interview if they prevent proper questioning. When a suspect who is a juvenile or a vulnerable adult is interviewed, the code requires that an independent adult, known as an “appropriate adult”, be called to help. Their job is to help ensure that the suspect understands what is happening and why, and that they are able to exercise their rights and entitlements under PACE and the codes. These new provisions are necessary to ensure consistency with the existing provisions, which have been in Code H since 2006, and they are modelled on paragraph 6.9 of Code C concerning the removal of a solicitor from an interview if they prevent proper questioning. Before an appropriate adult can be removed, an additional safeguard in both codes requires the inspector or superintendent who is called on to determine whether they should be excluded to remind the adult about their role and advise them of the concerns about their behaviour. That advice, if accepted, would then enable the appropriate adult to remain.

The changes to Code C are mirrored in Code H, as applicable, for persons detained under terrorism provisions. This ensures consistency in the provisions that are common to both codes.

In Code D, eye-witness and witness identification procedures are updated to take account of significant changes and developments in case law and police practice, and to address operational concerns raised by the police. Revised video identification provisions clarify and confirm the identification officer’s discretion to use “historic” images of the suspect; to regulate the presence of solicitors at witness viewings; and to direct others—police officers and police civilian staff—to implement any arrangements for identification procedures. The investigating officer’s responsibility concerning the viewing of CCTV and similar images by a witness other than an eye-witness is also clarified.

Other revisions to Code D reflect amendments made by the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 to PACE concerning the retention of fingerprints, DNA profiles and samples. Revisions to all three codes also highlight the need to check all sources of relevant information in order to establish a detainee’s identity; enable officers to use electronic pocket books and other devices in order to make records required by the Codes; clarify those who are not eligible to act as the appropriate adult for children under 18 and for mentally vulnerable adults; and highlight the requirement under Section 31 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 to separate children from adult detainees in police stations and other places of detention by including a link to College of Policing guidance on this matter.

Minor typographical and grammatical corrections have been made, and out-of-date references updated.

The revisions strike a balance between the need to safeguard the rights of suspects while supporting the operational flexibility of the police to investigate crime. They are being introduced to bring codes C, D and H in line with current legislation and to support operational police practice. The revised codes provide invaluable guidance to both police and the public on how the police should use their powers fairly, efficiently and effectively. I commend the order and urge noble Lords to support it.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her explanation of the effect of the order before the House this afternoon. I say at the outset that the Opposition support the order, and that we must always carefully consider these matters and strive to strike the right balance between giving the police and other law enforcement agencies the tools, guidance and procedures to do their job effectively and keep citizens safe, when we are balancing the rights of citizens and ensuring that the rights of suspects and witnesses are protected. This is very much my thinking in how I approach the order and similar matters when they come before this House.

I have a number of questions to ask the Minister and hope that she will be able to answer me today—but, if she cannot, I will of course be very happy for her to write me. I turn first to Code C and the ability to permit the use of live-link communication technology for interpreters. This will allow for interpreters to be based at remote locations and for their services to be used by a number of police forces without the need for travel. I can see how this will help the police by speeding up their investigations. Can the noble Baroness confirm whether this facility will be used only in respect of suspects, or will the police be making use of it in respect of witnesses? Is that the intention of the change? Is it envisaged by the department that this will become the norm; will it be used on only limited occasions; or is it somewhere between the two? How will the test of fairness to the suspect be assessed, and what role will there be for the suspect’s solicitor in making representations on the appropriateness of the use of remote translation services?

I move on to the provision to enable an appropriate adult be removed from an interview if they prevent the proper questioning of a subject. An appropriate adult is used when a juvenile or vulnerable adult is being interviewed. They have a specific role: to help the person understand what is happening and to protect their rights under law and the relevant codes. These individuals do a very important job in the justice system, but their role is not to prevent the questioning of suspects. However, there can be cases where there is a very fine line between what could be deemed fair practice and action that could be determined as breaching somebody’s rights. Will there be a role for the suspect’s solicitor in the process of determining whether an appropriate adult should be removed? What would happen if it was viewed that an appropriate adult should be present but, for whatever reason, it was thought that the appropriate adult present at the time had overstepped the line and needed to be removed? Would the interview be suspended until such time as another person could be identified to fulfil that role?

In respect of the electronic pocket books for use by police officers, can the noble Baroness say a little more about the trials that have taken place? It is important that police officers have access to technology that makes their jobs and the application of the law easier and allows for the efficient administration of justice to be done in a timely manner, but we must always be confident that the appropriate safeguards are in place. Very clever people invent, develop and create all sorts of devices, and where they can be used to fight crime, that is welcome—but we must be satisfied that there is no possibility that these devices can be tampered with to produce an inaccurate or untrue picture of what has happened.

There is also the question of the development of technology, which does not stand still. Because something cannot be done at the moment does not mean that it cannot be done in future. How does the noble Baroness plan to ensure that technological developments do not get ahead of the procedures before the House today and the practices of the police and other law enforcement agencies?

In respect of the changes to Code D that alter the way in which witness identification is undertaken, the change effectively deletes the old annexes A and E. We need a bit more evidence for why that is necessary, so I hope that the Minister will give a full explanation when she responds. With those questions, I say again that we are happy to support the order.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, I have just one brief question. Suspects under the age of 18 are to be looked after by the local authority. What security measures will be taken to ensure that they are safe and do not get away?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank noble Lords for their questions. Perhaps I can deal with the question of the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, first while it is fresh in my mind. The usual safeguards for young children in detention would be employed to ensure that a young person did not get away.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked about the use of live link and whether it would become the norm or used only on limited occasions. The police will use the live-link technology only in certain circumstances judged on a case-by-case basis, taking account of the representation given to the suspect by an appropriate adult and a solicitor. The noble Lord also asked whether the facility would be used only in relation to suspects. I can answer in the affirmative yes, not for the witnesses. He asked about safeguards being ensured and the role of the solicitor. Solicitors must be asked if they wish to make representations to be considered by the police. If there is any doubt the inspector must authorise.

If the noble Lord would like me to go through the conditions, I will do so. Before interview, the suspect’s solicitor, where legal advice is requested, and an appropriate adult for any juvenile or vulnerable adult, must be asked about their views on live-link interpretation. The representations for the interpreter to be present may be made at any time before and during the interview. If there is any doubt about the suspect’s ability to adequately cope with the live-link arrangements during the interview, the physical presence of the interpreter will be required, unless an inspector, having considered the circumstances—in particular, the availability of an interpreter, representations from the suspect’s solicitor, the appropriate adult’s impact on the suspect and the evidential implications—authorises live-link interpretation.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

It is very kind of the Minister to give way. She said that it would not be the case for witnesses, but could she explain why? At an interview, the witness and the suspect might both need interpreters, so I understand that you might want to bring the live link in to speed things up. If you have a witness with the same language problems—I think that the Minister can see the point that I am making.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I understand the noble Lord’s point, but at the moment it is just for suspects. It may well be that we will consider future codes that will extend it to witnesses—but not at this time.

The noble Lord also asked about the use of electronic pocket books and recording devices—and he took a very pragmatic approach to the need to move on with technology. He made the point about what happens if there are errors. I suppose that that is a risk in any method of recording. It is not good practice to have errors, but we are human. The likelihood is just as risky in electronic recording as it is in written recording.

In fact, the PACE codes apply only to suspects—and the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, who should have taken this question, is nodding. I do not know why I did not think of that. Those codes apply only to suspects and not to witnesses.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I made the point about technological developments. I am conscious that we might not be able to do something today but that people are very clever and invent all sorts of things in future—so how are we going to keep up to speed with those sorts of changes? What does the department do?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The code talks about electronic recording devices. I would imagine that within the code that in some way attempts to keep up with technology.

Motion agreed.

Passport Applications: Digitisation

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have received from the Photo Marketing Association and the Imaging Alliance about their proposals to digitise the passport application process, and what consideration they have given to enhancing and protecting passport security as part of the digitisation process.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, Her Majesty’s Passport Office has been working closely with the Imaging Alliance and previously with the Photo Marketing Association to consider their proposals to further enhance HM Passport Office’s digital passport application process. HM Passport Office works alongside the International Organization for Standardisation to ensure that the UK passport remains a highly secure and trusted document. System developments will enhance security and keep ahead of any evolving threats of fraud.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer, but when I met the Imaging Alliance four weeks ago it did not feel that it was being as fully consulted as she suggests. As I understand it, the Government are seeking to arrange that any of us can send what is essentially a selfie to the Passport Office to form our passport. The passport is the gold standard as far as identity assurance in this country is concerned. Why is the opportunity not being taken to prevent a situation in which people can Photoshop images and to make sure that there is proper certification about when an image has been taken, that it was taken in a proper way and that it is a secure and viable basis on which we can prove our identity?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that security standards are paramount, whether under the old system, as we can call it, or under the new digital system. I reassure the noble Lord that security standards are exactly the same under both systems. The USA and New Zealand allow people to take their own photograph. A photograph identified as a selfie that does not meet those security standards and requirements is rejected in the examination process. As the noble Lord is right to point out, that gold standard is paramount for the robustness of and the confidence in this very important document.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Does this Question not take us straight back to the issue of authenticity of information in national identity documentation? Do Ministers realise that once an amateur takes a photograph, we could end up with civil servants arguing about whether that photograph is an exact image, whether it is dark, whether it was taken at the right angle, and whether it presents an image of the quality necessary to be put into an official document, with the result that they may end up having to return it to the sender for the sender to resubmit it? Is that not a waste of Civil Service time? It will cost the state money.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord points out precisely the criteria that are used to measure quality and are required for photographs. Those security standards are no different in the online application process than they were in the old paper process. There was no more risk of the customer getting it wrong under the old system than there is under the new system.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, under the old system, as it is called, somebody has to certify on the back of the photograph that it is a true likeness of the passport holder. How is that going to be achieved if it is a completely digital application process?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the current service, which has been in place since April last year, is available only to adults over the age of 26 who have previously held a British passport. That is where the rigour is in the new process.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, what is the difference between a dodgy selfie and a genuine selfie?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, a dodgy selfie is one that does not meet the rigorous requirements of a passport photo.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, with the increasing threats of terrorism and of identity theft, does the Minister agree that the Question highlights the need for a proper biometric identity card?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government have rejected the idea of an identity card, but noble Lords will notice that when they go through passport gates now their face is compared with the photograph on the passport. The machines that do the face recognition, which is a form of biometrics, are very accurate indeed.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, is it not a fact that a photograph is merely a rather unsophisticated form of biometrics and that the only safe way of doing this is for the biometrics of any individual to be held centrally? When a person seeks to be identified, the person trying to identify them can, online, compare the biometrics of the person in front of them with those held centrally. That means that you cannot use a fake card or anything else. You need not an identity card but a number, with the biometrics attached centrally to that number.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There are a number of biometrics through which a person can be compared—it could be a photograph or fingerprints. The biometrics that we use on the British passport are very robust.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

I almost get the impression that the noble Baroness is saying that we have identity cards, but we simply call them passports. To go back to the Question, she seemed to give the Answer that the new system is exactly the same as the old one. I am not knocking the advances, as with facial recognition you have an electronic means of verifying that the individual in front of you is the person they say they are. However, that was clearly also true with old-fashioned photographs, which were much more difficult to manipulate. The problem surely is that digital photographs are much easier to manipulate and the possibility of fraud rises. I do not believe they are exactly the same, and if she wants to persist in that argument—I am sure it is what her brief says—I would be grateful if she would write to us with a little more explanation of the security measures that guarantee the validity of the electronic image.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord suggests that a passport is the same as an identity card, but actually it is a form of ensuring that the person’s identity is what they say it is.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

A passport is a form of identity document. Whether you want to call it an identity document or a passport, it is a form of identity documentation. The noble Lord is absolutely right that digital photographs are easy to manipulate, but paper photographs are actually as easily manipulable, should someone wish to do so. That is the point that I am trying to make.