Asylum Detention Centres: Safety
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(9 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Barker
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the report by the UK Lesbian and Gay Immigration Group and Stonewall published on 27 October No Safe Refuge, what plans they have to make detention centres safer for LGBT asylum seekers.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, the Government remain committed to continually improving the asylum process for all persons claiming asylum, including those who claim on the basis of their sexual orientation and gender and those in detention while their claim is considered.
Baroness Barker (LD)
I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer. Incarcerating lesbian and gay asylum seekers with people who threaten them with exactly the same violence and intimidation from which they are fleeing is a uniquely severe punishment. These people pose a very low flight risk. Why are we spending upwards of £36,000 a year keeping them locked up?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I can reassure the noble Baroness that there is actually a presumption against detention. On that note, the Government commissioned Stephen Shaw to do a review into the detention of vulnerable individuals. The noble Baroness and I had a very brief chat before we came into the Chamber. A new category, “adult at risk”, has been introduced, with the clear presumption that people at risk should not be detained, and this includes transsexual and intersex people. Stephen Shaw will carry out a short review next year to see how the actions he suggested have been implemented.
Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)
My Lords, LGBT asylum seekers have already faced persecution in their countries of origin. This report shows that, having risked everything to get here, they are now facing it again. Does the Minister agree that, in order to tackle a problem, you have to quantify it first? Why has the Home Office refused to break down asylum seeker numbers by gender identity and sexual orientation?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, all genuine asylum seekers—LGBT or otherwise—have experienced persecution in the countries from which they have arrived, which is why they are in our country seeking asylum. I stress that detention is used only sparingly: to establish the identity of a person; if there is a reason to believe that a person will fail to comply with conditions; or to effect removal from the UK. But I stress that people genuinely seeking asylum have nothing to fear from seeking asylum in this country. Some of the training has been really improved with regard to the questions asked, particularly of the LGBTI community, because of the sensitivity around their claims.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
In 2010, the coalition pledged to improve the system for LGBT applicants. I think that the then Home Secretary also ordered a review of the LGBT asylum system in 2014. In the light of the findings of this latest report, what has been the outcome of these two commitments in actually improving conditions of detention for LGBT asylum seekers, and what hard evidence is available to prove that those detention conditions have improved?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord is absolutely right. An inspection was commissioned by the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration back in 2014. It did not indicate any systemic or endemic issues of bullying, violence or victimisation. In fact, it praised the training and the guidance and our work with organisations such as UKLGIG and Stonewall. But the Government do not rest on their laurels. A new detention services order on LGBT was published in April, which provides operational guidance to suppliers and Home Office staff in the immigration detention estate. As I said, Stephen Shaw will be doing a review next year of how his suggested actions have been bedded in.
Policing and Crime Bill
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(9 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Williams of Trafford
That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:
Clauses 1 to 6, Schedule 1, Clauses 7 to 9, Schedule 2, Clauses 10 and 11, Schedule 3, Clauses 12 and 13, Schedule 4, Clauses 14 and 15, Schedule 5, Clauses 16 to 27, Schedule 6, Clause 28, Schedule 7 Clause 29, Schedule 8, Clauses 30 to 32, Schedule 9, Clauses 33 to 37, Schedules 10 and 11, Clauses 38 to 44, Schedule 12, Clause 45, Schedule 13, Clauses 46 to 50, Schedule 14, Clauses 51 to 105, Schedules 15 and 16, Clauses 106 and 107, Schedule 17, Clauses 108 to 127, Schedule 18, Clauses 128 to 142, Schedule 19, Clauses 143 to 161, Title.
Stalking and Domestic Violence
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(9 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Nye
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether there are plans to include serial stalkers and domestic violence offenders on the Violent and Sex Offenders Register so that they are identified, risk assessed and managed like sex offenders.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, we are committed to tackling stalking and domestic violence. That is why we introduced a new domestic abuse offence last year and two stalking offences in 2012. Convicted perpetrators of these crimes are already recorded on systems such as the police national computer to support the police in identifying, risk assessing and monitoring offenders.
Baroness Nye (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. A register, as recommended by Paladin, the National Stalking Advocacy Service, would have helped Zoe Dronfield, who was the 13th victim of a serial stalker, as well as many others. Can the Minister say whether the Government have any plans to develop one-to-one programmes for serial stalkers, either in custody or in the community, because the onus needs to be on the perpetrators to change rather than asking victims to change their behaviour to protect themselves and their children?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, the Government have put a significant amount of effort into introducing these stalking offences. Certainly the victims need ongoing support, and that is one of the things that the Government provide.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, hopefully those noble Lords who listen to “The Archers” will have a greater understanding of the issue of coercive control following the Helen Archer case. I declare an interest in that I have first-hand experience as a victim. Does the Minister not accept that for many perpetrators, domestic violence and coercive control form a pattern of behaviour that is likely to be repeated and that the chances of reoffending are high? Surely public protection panels have a duty to engage with these offenders.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord is absolutely right. Stalking, coercive control and domestic violence are not generally one-off offences but recur time and again. There are perpetrator programmes with which some of the charitable organisations we work with engage. It is sad that it is the other way round and the victim tends to flee the scene of the offence, as opposed to the perpetrator receiving that kind of ongoing work.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a trustee of the excellent charity Paladin. My fellow trustee, Dr Eleanor Aston, was the victim of horrendous stalking. Her perpetrator was jailed for five years, the maximum sentence. When he was sentenced the judge said he wished that the maximum sentence could be raised. Mr Alex Chalk, the MP for Cheltenham, therefore introduced a Private Member’s Bill at the other end to increase the maximum sentence to 10 years. Why would not the Government support this excellent Bill?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I understand the concern about why the maximum sentence is not higher than it is. The Government keep these issues under review but we do not have any plans at the moment to change the maximum sentence.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, why does the Minister not have such plans? Also, do the Government know how many serial stalkers there are in England and Wales? If, as the Minister said in her Answer, there is a register of these men—they are mostly men, although not exclusively—have the Government considered how to warn women that they are in danger of becoming a victim of a serial stalker like Zoe Dronfield was?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, the number of stalking and harassment referrals by the police to the Crown Prosecution Service in 2015 was almost 13,000. There were 1,102 prosecutions under the new stalking offences. These new laws need to have time to bed in. At this point the system appears to be working well.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, will my noble friend suggest to the Home Secretary that it would be a good idea to look at the maximum sentence? There seems to be fairly general agreement that it is too low. Why will the Government not at least discuss this matter?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
These offences, in particular the stalking offences, are relatively new. As I said, the Government keep legislation under review all the time. We will look at it if there is evidence that it needs to be changed.
Baroness Featherstone (LD)
My Lords, as the Minister said, during the coalition years laws were introduced so that a woman could stay in a house with an emergency order over the weekend, extendable up to one month. How many of those have been issued?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I will have to get back to the noble Baroness on the exact numbers, but that system is still in place. That has not changed.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, if I was in the Minister’s position answering Questions and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, had raised his question in the way he did, I would say, “I’ll take that back to my colleagues and have a look at it”. Why does she not do that?
Istanbul Convention
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(9 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Gale
To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they have not yet ratified the Council of Europe’s Istanbul Convention, and when they intend to do so.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, the Government are absolutely committed to tackling violence against women and girls, and to ratifying the Istanbul convention. In most respects, measures already in place to protect women and girls from violence comply with or go further than what the convention requires. Before the convention is ratified, we need to take extraterritorial jurisdiction over a range of offences. We will seek to legislate when the approach to implementing ETJ is agreed and parliamentary time allows.
Baroness Gale (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply, but I feel quite disappointed with it, bearing in mind that each year more than 2 million people in England and Wales, the majority being women, suffer some form of domestic violence. Although we have a raft of laws to protect people from domestic violence, this would be an additional safety net that means all our citizens could lead a life free from violence. I hope the Minister can go back and have another look at this. I am sure parliamentary time can be made available if the will is there. I hope the Minister will agree and urge whichever ministry is responsible for this to get a move on.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I hope I can give the noble Baroness some comfort on some of the offences for which we already exercise our extraterritorial jurisdiction: murder, FGM, forced marriage and offences against children. In addition, we have pledged to increase funding to £80 million for violence against women and girls between now and 2020.
Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)
My Lords, as the Minister has said, there has been tremendous progress over the past six years. However, she has not really articulated why we are a signatory to the convention but still setting our face against ratifying it. By ratifying it, we would show a long-term commitment to preventing, educating and doing all we can to take action on violence against women. Ratifying also means providing education for equality between men and women and on how violence against women in all its forms is unacceptable. What is wrong with that?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, as I have said, we will seek to legislate when the approach to implementing the extraterritorial jurisdiction requirements in England and Wales is agreed and parliamentary time allows.
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister for that commitment in principle. These questions no doubt mark White Ribbon Day tomorrow. Does the Minister agree with me that it would be a wonderful statement on the part of the Government if they were to commit to ratifying this important treaty by International Women’s Day next March?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness points to something that both she and the Government would ultimately like to see. I repeat what I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece: we will seek to legislate when the approach to implementing the extraterritorial jurisdiction requirements in England and Wales is agreed and parliamentary time allows.
Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)
My Lords, as a Member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, could I ask the Minister how many conventions of the Council of Europe have been signed but not ratified—I am not asking for details of them—and why not?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I literally cannot answer that at this point because I do not have the figures before me. I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, because I forgot to welcome her to the Front Bench.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
My Lords, the Minister has talked about legislation for extending extraterritoriality in England and Wales. What discussion has there been with the Scottish Government about extraterritoriality in respect of this convention with regard to Scotland?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
We liaise regularly with the devolved Administrations on violence against women and girls issues. Ministry of Justice officials have had informal contact with their counterparts in the devolved Administrations about the extraterritorial jurisdiction requirements of Article 44. We will formally consult Ministers in the devolved Administrations about whether legislative change on ETJ in England and Wales should extend to Scotland and Northern Ireland in due course.
Lord Lexden (Con)
How much time has passed since this convention was signed?
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)
My Lords, may I remind the Minister and Members of your Lordships’ House that when my noble friend Lady Armstrong was the Minister for Local Government, we ratified the convention giving genuine self-government at local and regional level? People need to be vigilant after a ratification, because many of those terms are still not implemented.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness makes a valid point. In some ways, we perhaps go further in our application of ETJ than other countries.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, may I push the Minister on similar point to the one that I raised? I asked how many conventions had been signed but not ratified. Will the Minister investigate this and write to me?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I most certainly will. Indeed, on any of the specific questions on this matter that I have not been able to answer, I will write to noble Lords.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)
My Lords, can I come to the assistance of the Minister and say that we have some of the best policies on domestic violence—I cannot pretend that we have solved the problem—and have made greater headway on law here in Britain than most other parts of Europe? I therefore think we have a role to play in expanding our experience and bringing it to places where we can do great good. One reason for ratifying the treaty is to make use of our expertise in a field in which we certainly have some.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness is absolutely right: we are world leaders in certain areas such as tackling violence against women and girls, domestic violence and stalking, and I hope other countries will follow.
Mental Health Units: Police Response
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(9 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Doocey
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review the use of force by police officers when responding to emergency calls from mental health units.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, there is ongoing work to ensure that any operational police decisions on the use of force in a mental health setting are necessary and proportionate. This includes the development of a new protocol on police attendance, national collection from 2017 to 2018 of police data on any force used and a request to local areas to scrutinise the use of any Taser in a mental health setting.
Baroness Doocey (LD)
I thank the Minister for that response. However, she will know that a recent Independent Police Complaints Commission report stated that people suffering from a mental illness are four times more likely to die after police use of force against them than other individuals. Will the Government look at the possibility that better training for police officers in how to deal with people suffering from a mental health illness might alleviate the need for them ever to use Tasers because they might understand better how to deal with the situation?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
Seven people with mental health concerns died in police custody in 2015-16 out of 14 deaths in total. That of course is still too many. The number of people with mental health problems in police custody has significantly come down since the Government decreed that nobody with a mental health problem should be held in a police cell but should be taken to a place of safety in every situation where that is possible, and never for children. On the second part of her question, the noble Baroness is absolutely right: training is essential for police officers, not just in combating crime but in knowing the symptoms of somebody with mental health problems.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
I declare my interest as chair of the National Mental Capacity Forum. Do the Government agree that in situations in the community where others are at risk because somebody is becoming very violent, it is appropriate to call the police and inappropriate to expect ambulance and other staff to attempt to use any form of restraint? The police are trained and are therefore safer than people using restraint who are not appropriately trained. The College of Policing is actively addressing this issue at the moment through its revised training guidelines.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness is right—restraint is the last possible option. It is certainly not for ambulance staff to deal with someone who is extremely violent and a danger to both themselves and others. So, yes, in rare circumstances the use of Taser will be necessary.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register. Is not one of the fundamental problems that there is a lack of appropriate levels of staffing in many mental health units and a lack of appropriate levels of community mental health services on whom the police can call under such circumstances? What representations has the Home Office made to its colleagues in the Department of Health to ensure that those gaps in service provision are being addressed?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord is right to raise this issue. The Government recognise the need to invest in places of safety and £15 million has been allocated to 88 projects in England to improve provision for those in mental health crises, including increasing places of safety.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
Will the Minister define what she means by the last possible option? What are the Government doing to develop a humane alternative to the use of Tasers in psychiatric wards?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I am happy to tell the noble Baroness what I mean by “last possible option”. Something like Taser would be used only when all other methods of restraint are deemed not appropriate or to have failed, and where distance is required between the police and the person who is being extremely violent. That is what I mean by the last option. As to never using it, we can never say that it will not be used because the alternatives—I talked about this with the noble Baroness the other day—are to use more extreme methods of restraint, and we would not want that.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
In the figures in the IPCC investigation, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, referred, of 191 cases of serious incidents, one in five people were known to have mental health concerns. They were more likely to be restrained and experience multiple uses of force, and were four times more likely to die after force had been used than those not known to be mentally ill. Is not the reality that this year is the third year in a row that the Government have failed to meet their promise that mental health funding in local areas would increase? Is not the reality that until the Government seek to address this problem we will not get at the heart of the issue of the continuing extent to which the police are called out in situations involving people with mental health issues?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I dispute the noble Lord’s assertion about funding because the Government have committed to investing an additional £1 billion into mental health services by 2020 to ensure improved mental health support in the community and for people in accident and emergency, as well as crisis response provision and treatment for both adults and children.
Lord Blair of Boughton (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the problem behind this Question is not one for the police? This is a matter for the health service, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has said. It cannot be the case that police officers are called to actually come into mental health units unless there has been a major failure of care by the health service. This is blaming the people who have to clear up the mess rather than dealing with the problem itself.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, the noble Lord and I agree on one level because if someone has a mental health problem or is experiencing a mental health crisis, that is a health issue. However, if someone demonstrates behaviour that is either a danger to themselves or to others, including the staff in mental health settings, there may be no other option. Of course these situations are rare, but as I say there may be no other option than for police restraint to be used.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister has referred to the Government’s intention to put an additional £1 billion into mental health services between now and, I think she said, 2020. Can she say when that money is going to be delivered? If, as I suspect, it is what might be called back loaded, what is to happen in the meantime?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I think that the noble Baroness is being slightly cynical, but I will write to her with a breakdown of when the funding might be expected to be released.
Crime: Illegal Arms
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(9 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register and beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, between April 2015 and March 2016, Border Force seized 445 real firearms, 321 imitation firearms and 1,533 other items captured by firearms law. This is an increase on real firearm seizures from 2014-15, when 126 real firearms, 419 imitation firearms and 2,301 other items were seized. Border Force works closely with other law enforcement agencies to combat smuggling of firearms.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, that improvement is welcome but in July and August of this year, the Metropolitan Police recorded 202 firearms discharges in the London area compared with 87 in the same period in the previous year. A record number of firearms have been seized within the United Kingdom, so there is clearly a leakage of illegal firearms into the country. The resources of the UK Border Force are woefully spread too thinly to deal with the task. Its budget has been cut by £50 million in the past four years and there are 100 fewer staff. Why do we still consider it adequate to have three vessels patrolling 7,723 miles of coastline while 16 patrol the Netherlands coastline of 280 miles?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, we have increased our maritime capability and Border Force is an active member of the joint Maritime Operations Centre, where it works closely with partner agencies. Border Force is working to enhance its capability by training more firearms dogs and improving detection technologies. The technologies have formed a critical part of the improvement in performance in this area.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
All these criminal networks smuggling into the country are cross-border and international, and the arms which are sloshing around the African continent and eastern Europe are smuggled by links of criminals across a range of different countries. As we withdraw from the European Union we are in severe risk of losing the co-operation in intelligence and policing that we have built up over the past 40 years. Can the Minister assure the House that, as this danger of arms smuggling rises for the UK, we are taking adequate steps to ensure that that crucial co-operation in intelligence and policing continues, and can she tell us something about the framework within which it will be organised?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I can confirm to the noble Lord that we intend to keep up and enhance our joint working capabilities at the border and between member states, both during our membership of the EU and afterwards.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
Dogs are generally very good swimmers, my Lords. I will get the exact figures for my noble friend of how many dogs are used on any given day—perhaps today.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, given the figures that the Minister has read out, can she tell us what is the Government’s estimate of the percentage of illegally imported firearms into the UK that are actually seized?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
Without doing the maths, I cannot give the noble Lord the figures off the top of my head. However, I will certainly write to him with accurate figures.
Lord Skelmersdale (Con)
My Lords, in her original Answer my noble friend the Minister mentioned real firearms seizures, or words to that effect. Can she tell the House what the unreal firearms seizures are, and if so, why are they seized?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I can tell my noble friend that “unreal” firearms include fake weapons and parts of firearms. BB guns, for example, are imitation guns, while others included in this group are bits of guns and other weapons like stun guns and pepper spray.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister think that there is anything our 40 admirals could do to help with this problem?
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, the noble Baroness has talked about the Border Force collaborating with other forces. At most Question Times we hear from my noble friend Lord West about the problems with the Royal Navy. Are there really enough ships, vessels and aircraft patrolling our borders?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I think I made it clear in my follow-up response to the noble Lord that Border Force has invested in its maritime capability, having purchased a number of new coastal patrol vessels, four of which will be in service by April of next year. We have also invested in new technology which has hugely helped in detection.
Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(9 years, 2 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House I shall now repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer to an Urgent Question delivered by my honourable friend Sarah Newton MP, the Minister for Vulnerability, Safeguarding and Countering Extremism. The Statement is as follows:
“The inquiry was set up to look at the extent to which institutions in England and Wales failed to protect children from sexual abuse. We know the terrible impact that abuse has on survivors, sometimes for many years. As the House knows, following the resignation of the previous chair, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary appointed as chair Professor Alexis Jay. She has a distinguished career in social work and a long-standing dedication to child protection. She led the independent inquiry into child sexual exploitation in Rotherham where she scrutinised the work of social workers and proved her capability to uncover failings across institutions and professions. She is the right person to take this work forward.
Taking the work forward is vital for creating a sense of certainty for victims and survivors. The inquiry has set up 13 strands of investigation and made 250 formal requests for information from over 120 institutions, with 164,000 documents now having been submitted. It has referred roughly 80 cases a month to the police. It has rolled out the Truth Project, providing survivors with the opportunity to tell the inquiry what has happened to them, and more than 500 people have come forward so far.
The inquiry has adequate resources to undertake its work and we will support the inquiry with what it reasonably needs. The inquiry remains independent, which means that it is not part of government and is not run by a government department. Professor Jay is mindful of both the scale of the task and the need to move forward at a pace. That is why she instigated an internal review of the inquiry’s approach to its investigations, exploring new ways to deliver its investigative work while remaining faithful to its terms of reference. She has made it clear that if any changes are proposed, the views of those affected by them will be sought. We expect the outcome of this review soon.
It is crucial that we now give the inquiry the space and the support it needs to get on with its job, getting to the truth for victims and survivors. I urge everyone in the House to do just that”.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Answer to the Urgent Question asked in the other place. The independent inquiry into child sexual abuse may be in danger of turning into a soap opera. Unless it has changed its mind within the last few hours, the Shirley Oaks Survivors Association, which I understand represents some 600 victims, seems to have lost all confidence in the inquiry and appears to have done its own version of Brexit.
I have four relatively brief questions for the Minister. First, is it the case that the current fourth government-appointed chair of the inquiry has not, as claimed, met or contacted the Shirley Oaks Survivors Association since her appointment? Secondly, does the Home Secretary intend to meet the survivors association to find out at first hand the reasons for its apparent declared lack of confidence in the inquiry and its chair, with a view to seeing if any of those reasons can be addressed and the association persuaded to carry on participating fully in the inquiry proceedings? Thirdly, what powers does the inquiry have to require witnesses to attend, or would the thought of an inquiry into child abuse requiring an association representing 600 victims to appear before it simply, in the Government’s view, risk signalling the end of the inquiry as a credible channel for investigating child sexual abuse? Finally, does the Home Secretary intend to review the remit of the inquiry?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, the Home Secretary has no plans to review the remit of the inquiry, which was originally set out with the support of the survivors. The chairman has also stated that she is happy with the inquiry’s remit and has no plans to change it. However, a review will be published in due course on the operation of the inquiry. That was laid out the last time I answered a question on this subject.
On the Home Secretary meeting the chair of the inquiry to discuss the way forward, or indeed the survivors, this is an independent inquiry. I cannot stress that strongly enough. It is for the chair, together with the panel and the survivors’ group, to work through the inquiry in the way it sees fit.
It is indeed sad that Shirley Oaks has chosen to step outside the inquiry, but the door is always open for it to return. I hope it does in due course. On the chair meeting the survivors, I assume that that either has happened or will happen in due course—I assume it has happened already. The survivors are at the heart of the inquiry; it is important that the chair not just listens to the panel, but hears from the survivors themselves.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, changes to the inquiry—four chairs so far, another review and another lead counsel—do not just leave survivors disappointed, as the Minister in the other place said this afternoon; they are retraumatising for survivors. Do the Government have confidence that all those involved are being appropriately consulted about the future of the inquiry? These may be operational decisions, but Ministers must satisfy themselves that this inquiry is being properly run. With 13 strands, 250 lines of inquiry, 164,000 documents, 80 cases a month being referred to the police and 500 victims having come forward so far, is the Minister confident that the inquiry and the police have sufficient resources to deal adequately with these issues in a reasonable timescale?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, all reasonable resources are being provided for the inquiry’s purposes. I underline the point that lack of resource is not an issue. Resources are there to meet the needs of the inquiry. Last year it underspent slightly. I do not think there is any question that there is not sufficient resource in money and manpower.
The Government have confidence in the chairman, having appointed her, but I must underline again that this is an independent inquiry. It is not for the Government to interfere in the inquiry and we have every confidence that it will proceed with pace and clarity, as the chair outlined herself.
Lord Finkelstein (Con)
I thank the Minister for the Statement. It is obviously massively premature to suggest the chairman of the inquiry stand down, but I have questions about the remit. Given that it took 10 years or more for the Savile inquiry to inquire into a single institution on a single afternoon, how long does the Minister estimate it will take the inquiry to inquire into every institution in the country over 50 years?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My noble friend asks a perfectly reasonable question. We are not holding the inquiry to a timescale, but the chair has indicated that by 2020 she should have concluded a large element of her work. We have absolute confidence in the chairman. She was appointed in view of the fact she had led such a successful inquiry into some of the terrible things that happened in Rotherham.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)
My Lords, my Government in Scotland appointed Professor Jay to head up our social work inspectorate in 2006. She is an outstanding individual and, I believe, not only the best appointment to this position but one who should have been appointed earlier, given her track record. I hope we will give her every support. That said, I ask a question I have asked before about the links between this inquiry and the similarly stuttering inquiry in Scotland into survivors of child sexual abuse. Have those links been properly set up, and will information be exchanged between the two inquiries to ensure that the whole of the United Kingdom is covered accurately?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
On the noble Lord’s second point, the entire point of the inquiry is that it is a full and proper inquiry into what happened in the past, both in Scotland and in England and Wales. I am sure there will be sharing of information across the piece. I am pleased he mentioned Professor Jay because she has shown in her past work into Rotherham what an outstanding chairman she is and how she got to the heart of what was a very difficult, complex issue. I am pleased to hear the noble Lord make that point. The Government also have full confidence in her.
Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)
My Lords, will the review direct itself to seek to set a target no later than five years from now for the publication of the final report? Failure to do this may well place a very great strain on human memory. Witnesses will die; others will fail to give coherent evidence.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord makes a very good point. On the current chairman’s intentions, she has said she will operate with pace but also with clarity. The longer time goes on, the harder these things become. We will not press the inquiry to a timetable, but the chairman has laid out quite clearly that she intends to do it with clarity and pace.
Lord Faulks (Con)
My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend will appreciate a suggestion pursuant to the internal review as to how the inquiry might be somewhat more focused. Rather than deciding who abused who when, which would involve a trial of some sort, would it not be better to focus on the complaints system so that there is an examination of when a complaint was made, why it was not heard, and, if a complaint was not made, why it was not made so that we can learn about the systems that will protect children in the future? The ambit of that would be much smaller and it should be possible to report much more closely. In asking that question, I declare an interest as being instructed on behalf of the estate of Lord Janner.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My noble friend demonstrates that there are a number of views on how the inquiry should be conducted and just what focus it should take. I totally bow to his rich experience in this area, but I come back to the point that the Government are very clear that this is an independent inquiry. Therefore, the way it is conducted is entirely a matter for the inquiry itself.
Drugs Policy
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(9 years, 2 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, that is good news, because somebody will agree with me tonight, I hope. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, for securing the debate. I acknowledge the extensive work she has done in this area. Indeed, I thank all noble Lords, who have contributed very thoughtfully to the debate.
The Government used the UN General Assembly Special Session on Drugs to share our experience of delivering an evidence-based, balanced drug strategy within the UN drug conventions, and to strengthen international co-operation in tackling drug harms. The outcome document of the special session combines ambitious goals with operational recommendations that all Governments should consider implementing. The UK Government secured particularly helpful recommendations on our priorities on new psychoactive substances, proportionate criminal justice and comprehensive recovery.
We have heard that United Nations officials at the special session called for evidence-based policies that promote public health. These calls are fully in line with the Government’s approach. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, can rest easy about agreeing with the Government’s position. The Government are taking balanced action to prevent the harms caused by drug use. This includes educating young people about the risks, helping dependent individuals through treatment and supporting law enforcement in tackling the illicit trade. We are currently developing a new drugs strategy, working across government and with key partners, to identify what further steps we can take to tackle this issue.
We continue to take a broad approach to prevention, supporting investment in a range of programmes that have a positive impact on young people and adults. These programmes give them the confidence, resilience and risk-management skills to resist drug misuse. This includes the resilience-building resources available online, such as FRANK and advice services, as well as toolkits from Public Health England to support local responses.
Tough enforcement is a fundamental part of our drugs strategy, with action to restrict drug supply and reduce drug-related crime a key priority for law enforcement. We are tackling drug dealing on our streets, strengthening the border and combating the international flow of drugs to the UK to disrupt drug trafficking upstream.
Recovery remains at the heart of our approach. More adults are leaving treatment successfully compared to 2009-10. That can be only a good thing. The average waiting time to access treatment remains at three days. However, we recognise there is still further to go.
Drug treatment is invaluable to individuals, their families and the communities in which they live. It is vital that there is access to a range of options that can be tailored to individual need to provide the best possible chances of recovery. Such treatment should be provided alongside the wider recovery support essential to achieving and sustaining recovery, which includes access to training and employment, stable housing, and wider health services.
The Government are taking a leading role on drugs policy at the international level. Steering international action to strengthen our domestic response will be a key element of the new drugs strategy. The Government used the special session to strengthen our global leadership in the international response to new psychoactive substances. Our comprehensive action on this issue in recent years has resulted in, first, the formation of the UK-led International Action Group on New Psychoactive Substances, a group of more than 30 Governments and international organisations which drives the international response; secondly, in the establishment of a global early warning system at the United Nations; and, thirdly, in the first two tranches of international controls on some of the most harmful new psychoactive substances. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, on the Spice/cannabis differentiation, because I will not have a chance to respond on that point tonight. We will continue to press the international community to implement the recommendations of the special session outcome document, including on new psychoactive substances. They include enhancing the global collection of data on the health harms that such substances pose.
My noble friend Lord Crickhowell, the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, and others spoke about alternative drugs policies in other countries. We have heard this evening about some great successes in other countries which implemented policies that are not part of this Government’s approach, but we must be cautious when comparing the evidence between countries. Historical patterns of drug use, cultural attitudes, and policy and operational responses to drug misuse in a country will all affect levels of use and harm. Moreover, different countries have different means of collecting data, so it is often difficult to make direct comparisons.
Almost every noble Lord mentioned medicinal cannabis. I used to work with people who had multiple sclerosis—it was right at the beginning of the debate and what led to the development of Sativex. We recognise that people with chronic pain and debilitating illnesses are looking to alleviate their symptoms. It is important that medicines are trialled thoroughly to ensure they meet rigorous standards before being placed on the market and so that doctors and patients are sure of their efficacy and safety. The Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 enables the availability of controlled drugs which have recognised medicinal uses in UK healthcare, of which there are many. A clear regime is in place, administered by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency—mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. This enables medicines including those containing controlled drugs such as cannabis to be developed, licensed and made available for medicinal use by patients in the UK. For example, Sativex has been granted market authorisation in the UK by the MHRA for the treatment of spasticity due to multiple sclerosis. It was rigorously tested for its safety and efficacy before receiving approval. The Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency is open to considering marketing approval applications for other medicinal cannabis products should they be developed. As happened in the case of Sativex, the Home Office will consider issuing a licence to enable trials of any new medicine, provided that it complies with approved ethical criteria. The Government’s view is that cannabis should be subject to the same regulatory framework as applies to all medicines in the UK—I do not think that noble Lords demurred from that premise. To do otherwise would amount to circumvention of a clearly established regime.
My noble friend Lord Mancroft talked about decriminalising drugs. I am afraid to say to him that we have no intention of doing that. They are illegal because scientific and medical analysis has shown that they are harmful to human health. A number of noble Lords cited decriminalisation in Portugal. Successes cannot be attributed to decriminalisation alone, but I recognise them. At around the same time as implementing decriminalisation, Portugal made changes to its approach to drugs misuse, including widespread implementation of harm reduction programmes and investment in drug treatment. It is extremely challenging to disentangle the effects of decriminalisation from those of these wider changes.
The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, talked about other approaches, for example in Switzerland and Glasgow, and the heroin-assisted treatment. There is evidence from the UK and other countries that supervised injections of diamorphine or pharmaceutical heroin in a medical environment as part of a structured treatment plan can keep patients in treatment and out of criminal behaviour. In addition to cutting crime, the treatment also drastically reduces the risk of overdose. The Government’s commitment to that evidence is set out in both the 2010 drugs strategy and the 2016 modern crime prevention strategy.
We do not plan to change the law to enable drug consumption rooms to be established and operate in the UK because while there is international evidence that they can be effective in addressing the problems of public nuisance and reducing health risks in a very specific set of circumstances where open drug scenes presented a significant risk to public health, this is a complex and legally divisive solution to a problem that we do not have in the UK.
The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, talked about Schedule 1 of the Misuse of Drugs Regulations versus Schedule 4. Cannabis is controlled as a class B drug under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 and, given that it currently has no recognised medicinal benefits in the UK, a Schedule 1 drug under the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001. We recognise the value of important scientific research and the Home Office licensing regime allows that to take place in the appropriate controlled environment.
I am running out of time and will not be able to answer every single noble Lord’s question. I will finish with the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, because it is a quick answer. On the Spice question, there may be no possession offence under the Psychoactive Substances Act as the harms of such substances may not be fully assessed. However, once assessed and if proven harmful, substances will be controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act, which includes an offence for possession.
I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I have not had time to answer everyone so I will do so in writing.
Immigration: Overseas Students
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(9 years, 3 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, I begin by thanking my noble friend Lord Lucas for initiating this incredibly popular debate, which attracted almost 20 speakers, and also welcome to her place the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, and congratulate her on her maiden speech. Like me, she is an immigrant, and also like me, she sounded quite emotional speaking in this House for the first time. I have to say that I felt exactly the same. I look forward to hearing from her, as the years go on, in this House.
It should come as no surprise to anybody that on the subject of higher education, noble Lords bring unparalleled experience. I felt quite humble listening to some of the background stories and hearing about some of the universities with which noble Lords are associated. I have to say—although noble Lords may not agree with me—that I do not think there is any real difference of opinion between any of us on this topic. We all share the desire to ensure that the United Kingdom continues to attract the best and brightest international students to study here. High-quality international students enrich the intellectual life of the institutions where they are studying. As the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, says, they increase the soft power of the UK as a country, and they enhance the experience of the domestic students here. I hope that, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, says, they return to their home countries with fond memories of their time in the United Kingdom.
We already have an excellent offer for international students, which is why the UK remains the second most popular place in the world to study, behind only the United States. There is no limit on the number of genuine international students who can come here to study. That is a very important point. We do not propose to cap or limit the number of overseas students who can come to study in the UK.
Our approach is based on two key principles, which I hope will be shared by all noble Lords. First, we want to ensure that UK education institutions can attract the best and brightest. Secondly, we need to be vigilant and guard against abuse of the student migration route. I do not want to bring politics into what has been a bipartisan debate, with very good contributions from all around the House, but I have to say that the student immigration system the Government inherited in 2010 was a mess. Abuse was rife, and steps needed to be taken to restore it to a sensible state. Some 920 institutions have had their right to sponsor overseas students removed, and the effects are clear to see. The proportion of overseas students now attending higher education institutions has risen by 16%—from 143,000 in 2010 to 166,000 in 2015.
I would not want your Lordships to interpret this as an attempt to restrict those who are genuine in their desire to study. Visa applications from university students are now 14% higher than they were in 2010. Visa applications to Russell group universities, of which much mention has been made today, are 39% higher than in 2010. The grant rate for tier 4 general visa applications has increased every year since 2010, and 94% of such applications were granted in 2015.
Of course, applications from some nationalities are down, as the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, pointed out. I shall address that later. Equally, applications from other nationalities are up, particularly from Chinese students. There are natural fluctuations, but the fact that overall applications to universities have increased in the last five years is encouraging and suggests that any particular falls should not be attributed to Home Office immigration policies.
This Government are determined to help our best institutions attract the best international talent from around the world. Let me give noble Lords a recent example. We recently launched the tier 4 visa pilot. Four institutions, the Universities of Bath, Cambridge, Oxford and Imperial College, chosen because of their consistently low visa refusal rates, are piloting a scheme whereby certain visa eligibility checks have been delegated to the universities and the documentary requirements for students taking part are reduced. The students also have additional leave at the end of their course to enable them to take advantage of the UK’s post-study work offer. Monitoring of the pilot is ongoing and the results will be evaluated to inform any decision to roll out the pilot more widely. However, if it is a success—I hope that this addresses the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell—I hope that other high-quality institutions in the UK will be able to benefit. The noble Lord asked about publishing specific data on the pilot. We have not done so, as it is commercially sensitive information.
As the Home Secretary recently announced, we will be seeking views on study immigration routes. I encourage all interested parties—which will, I am sure, include many of your Lordships and the institutions with which noble Lords are associated—to participate and ensure that every point of view is heard.
I shall deal with some specific points raised during the debate, and I hope I can get through every one of them—but poor noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, is always last on the list because he winds up for the Opposition, and I may well have to write to him. However, I shall address the first answer to him, because I have just had inspiration from the Box. He asked why we cannot have two sets of immigration figures, like the USA. Another noble Lord asked the same question. Net migration statistics are not produced by the Home Office but by the ONS, the UK’s independent statistical authority. I hope that answers the question.
Several noble Lords—the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith of Newnham and Lady Royall of Blaisdon, the noble Lord, Lord Trees, my noble friends Lord Lexden and the Duke of Wellington, and others I am sure—suggested that students should be removed from the net migration statistics. I make the point that the ONS has drawn up these statistics. The Government trying to influence the production of independent statistics might be seen to help the Government achieve a manifesto target.
Like Australia, Canada and New Zealand, the Office for National Statistics includes international students in net migration calculations. International students who stay for longer than 12 months have, like other migrants, an impact on the infrastructure and services that they use and the communities in which they live. Only yesterday, the ONS released a report which stated that the net migration figures are used to calculate the size of the UK population in any given year, and that they include international students since they contribute to population growth. I make one final point on that, because I think it is important. Changing the way that we measure migration would not make a difference to our student migration policy, because there continues to be no limit on the number of genuine international students who come here to study.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I am very reluctant to sit down because I have very little time.
Baroness Smith of Newnham
Can the noble Baroness explain how that fits with an immigration target of tens of thousands?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I was just saying to the noble Baroness that, because we do not place a limit on the number of students, the fact that the ONS includes students in the migration statistics does not impact on students’ abilities to come here. I do not know if I have made that very clear; the noble Baroness does not look very convinced. If I could make progress and she could look at Hansard, perhaps I could make it clear in writing as well.
My noble friend Lord Lucas and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked the initial question, “What is the problem?”. I do not think we are anything but in agreement that international students are absolutely vital to the UK, whether it is in medicine, engineering, or anything else. But we must remain vigilant, maintaining safeguards against the types of abuse that we saw previously. We will be inviting views on what more we can do to strengthen the system to support our excellent higher education institutions and those that stick to the rules to attract the best talent.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, asked me to confirm that the Home Office will think liberally and openly about EU students. The Prime Minister has been very clear that she wants to protect the status of EU nationals already living in the UK. The only circumstances in which that would not be possible is if British citizens’ rights in other EU member states were not protected in return. There will be no immediate changes to the immigration status of EU students or the way that universities are able to recruit students.
My noble friend Lord Lexden asked about minor infractions being reported to UKVI, resulting in heavy sanctions being unfairly imposed. Sponsors benefit directly from migration and are expected to play a part in ensuring that the system is not abused. They must therefore fulfil certain duties to ensure that immigration control is maintained. We already apply discretion to sponsors who have fewer than 50 international students when they undergo their annual compliance assessment and we do not apply sanctions lightly.
The noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, asked whether we could introduce a post-study work route for STEM students and nurses. The post-study provisions we have in place must strike the balance between providing competitive options for the brightest graduates from around the globe and maintaining safeguards against the type of widespread abuse that was seen under former post-study work schemes. The noble Baroness also said that the Times report suggested that only 1 per cent of students overstay, and asked why we therefore needed to review the student visa system. We think that the reforms we have made in the last few years have worked and greatly improved compliance. However, that does not mean that we can be complacent. We will shortly be consulting on non-EU work and study immigration routes.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
All I asked for were the data. Can we see the facts with the data?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I can reply to the noble Baroness in writing. As the noble Lord, Lord Green, said, it is prudent to await clarification before policy decisions are made. However, I will get more detail to the noble Baroness on that if I can.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester and the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, talked about the recent visit to India, and the fact that the number of Indian students coming to the UK has dropped. We issue more tier 4 visas to students from India than any other country except China and the US, although I of course accept the point made by the noble Lord. We have seen increases in the number of student visas granted elsewhere to China and Indonesia in the year ending March of this year. The proportion of Indian students coming to study in the UK has increased from 50% in 2010 to around 90% in 2015, so the trend of smaller volumes of students with greater concentration in higher education is likely to reflect the recent policy changes to clamp down on immigration abuse by non-genuine students and bogus colleges.
The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, talked about tier 2 salary thresholds being too high. For the most part they are based on the annual survey of hours and earnings—ASHE—published by the independent ONS. The salary requirements were based on advice from the Migration Advisory Committee, which is an independent body made up of labour market economists.
The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, said that the Fresh Talent Scheme worked, and that therefore Scotland needs a post-study work visa. The Fresh Talent Scheme operated in Scotland between 2004 and 2008. That scheme placed few restrictions on those who wanted to stay in the UK to work post-study and granted free access to the whole of the UK labour market. Evidence published by Scottish Government Social Research in 2008 found that only 44% of applicants had remained in Scotland at the end of their two years’ leave and a significant proportion were not in skilled work. We do not intend to return to the post-study work visa. That does not necessarily lead to skilled work.
I keep getting notes saying that I have two minutes left, then notes saying that I have no minutes. However, I think that I have probably outstayed my welcome at the Dispatch Box. I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, once again.
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe
As the noble Baroness sits down, I simply ask her to also address in the written notes that she sends us the issues about differentiation of quality that I raised in my presentation.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness absolutely did and I will respond to that. In fact, she made another point about the TEF, which I will address as well.
National Identity Cards
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(9 years, 3 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government have made it clear that there are no plans to reintroduce identity cards, and therefore there is no need to consult the National Police Chiefs’ Council.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
My Lords, that is very bad news indeed. Now that we have evidence of the availability on the dark web, at a price, of counterfeit passports, driving licences, national insurance cards, credit cards, credit references, NHS treatment entitlement cards, European health insurance cards, utility bills, work permits, bank statements and examination certification, is it not now time to return to the whole issue of national identity cards? We cannot escape this debate any longer.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned a number of areas in which there is fraud and counterfeiting. I am sure that in terms of identity cards, it is no different in trying to obtain them fraudulently.
Baroness Sharples (Con)
Is my noble friend aware that I twice asked this Question of different Governments many years ago and received exactly the same Answer as was received today?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I think that is probably because the Government have not changed their position on this subject.
Lord Dholakia (LD)
My Lords, the coalition Government were right to scrap the identity card and the national identity register. It impacted severely on civil liberties and, more importantly, on state intrusion. Is the Minister aware that a very serious rift is developing between the Muslim community and the Prevent strategy that the Government have established? What consultations are taking place with this community to ensure that we are able to deal with those people who are born and radicalised in this country?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, the noble Lord brings up a number of areas. He is absolutely right to bring up the subject of civil liberties in terms of identity cards, because that was one of the concerns about them in the first instance. The Prevent strategy aims to protect people against the threat of radicalisation, not to punish them. In my previous role in communities and local government, I was aware of some fantastic community work, much of it led by the Church, which is helping people to come together to discuss those areas that unite communities rather than divide them.
Lord Richard (Lab)
My Lords, for the life of me, I do not understand why the Government have set their mind so firmly against the idea of having an identity card or identity document. It is common practice in many parts of the world. If the Government, in their rush to Brexit, wish to control immigration, it seems to me that the most obvious thing they should do is to have some form of common identification to show that people are United Kingdom citizens.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, we do have common systems of identification: 84% of people in this country have a passport and 60% have a driving licence. As the noble Lord said, many European countries have identity cards, but we have not seen any evidence that they offer any greater protection than we have in this country.
Lord Marlesford (Con)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that we are quite right not to have identity cards for the very reason given by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that all those documents are forgeable? Surely what is needed is a unique number for every citizen—because if a state does not know who its citizens are for national security, good governance and everything else, it is not in business. If there were a single number to which biometrics could be attached, it would be a big advance. We do not need the actual card.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I think that my noble friend is saying the same thing as me but in a different way. In this country we have passports and driving licences. As I said, there is no evidence that identity cards have improved security in the European countries that have them.
Lord Blunkett (Lab)
My Lords, as the Minister who introduced the original identity register and card—I still have mine—I ask whether the noble Baroness would concede that, if people do not like the term “identity card”, it might be a possible way forward for all British citizens over 16 to have a mandatory passport and for all non-British citizens to carry a card that registers their status in this country. Surely that would be a way round what has become a very sterile argument.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I would congratulate the noble Lord on introducing the identity card—but the Government do not agree with them and his identity card is probably invalid by now. I cannot help but repeat that we have passports. In fact, our passports now, particularly the e-passports, where facial identity can be cross-referenced with the actual document, are an improvement on what we had before.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, can the Minister name one country anywhere in the world whose citizens have identity cards or a number equating to their identity and has fewer problems with regard to benefit fraud, immigration or terrorism? Is there anywhere across the world were these problems have been completely eradicated on the basis of the demands of those who want to see this form of identification?
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, one of the greatest civil liberties is to not have your identity stolen. We have found in the banking world, and other worlds, that by having biometric cards that identify clearly who you are this can be avoided; these cards cannot be duplicated easily because they are biometric. I have no doubt whatever, and I would be interested to know whether or not the Minister agrees, that we will inevitably end up having a card—whatever we call it—in order for our people not to have their identity stolen.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I do recognise what the noble Lord said, particularly in terms of identity fraud. One of the things we are doing is working with banks because it is such a huge financial loss when people fraudulently open bank accounts or take money from other people’s accounts. E-passports now have facial recognition, which is a very good system of identification—but we will not be moving to the identity card scheme.