Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

David Hanson Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for thanking me for my service as shadow spokesperson on police. It is a privilege to move on to another shadow Home Office role. He and I appear to have job swapped in the course of our time on the Bill. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero), who has now joined the shadow Cabinet, for her work on the Bill. I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), for Croydon North (Mr Reed) and for Warrington North (Helen Jones), who joined the shadow Home Office team and worked on the Bill in the past two days. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) for her work on Report. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) for his efforts in Committee.

I thank the Minister for his consideration during the Bill’s progress and the Minister of State, Home Department, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), for his consideration over the last couple of days. I also thank the former Ministers, the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), and, in particular, the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms), whom I think, in a challenging Committee full of very different views, did his job with integrity; I personally was sorry to see him leave his post in the recent reshuffle. Members of the Committee, some of whom are present today, know that it was an interesting and exciting time, and I thank them also.

Third Reading is about what is in a Bill, not what might have been, and with that in mind, I will first welcome those aspects of the Bill with which the Opposition agree. We welcome the instigation of the College of Policing, which is an opportunity to provide training and investment and to set standards. We perhaps want to see it develop in different ways from the Government, but it is a positive and forward-looking initiative, and I wish both the chair and the chief officer well in their task.

I welcome the measures on firearms and the intent to supply, which, as I mentioned in Committee, had their genesis even before the last general election. These important provisions will help to reduce the supply of guns, and therefore deaths and criminality.

I welcome the extension of the role of the Independent Police Complaints Commission to private contractors and staff working for police authorities, particularly because my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) proposed such a measure last year. I am pleased that the Government have taken it up. Again, we would like to see further action, but I welcome the provision none the less.

I welcome the measures on terrorism and on terrorists travelling abroad and the long-overdue measures on forced marriage, which, in my view and that of the Committee, will strengthen the legal basis for tackling this immensely challenging problem.

I particularly welcome new clause 5 and the measures on sexual harm prevention notices, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North gave a fair wind yesterday. Their introduction to the Bill was a positive development, and I am pleased that the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) brought them forward, with support from across the House.

I welcome the measures on witness protection and, as far as they go—I will return to this shortly—the measures on dogs, although we think they could have gone further. I particularly welcome the measures against dog attacks in the home.

I welcome the policing pay review body, which we will give a fair wind, but we need to look again at the commissioning of victims’ services by police and crime commissioners, as I still worry that it will lead to the fragmentation of victims’ services across the country.

We therefore welcome several measures in the Bill. We challenged them in Committee, but they remain and broadly have the Opposition’s support. I have to say, however, that I do not welcome the changes to the ASBO regime or the developments on the injunctions to prevent nuisance and annoyance. I cannot for the life of me understand why a party that, during my formative political years, prided itself on being the party of law and order continues to bring forward measures that reduce the ability of the police and communities to tackle elements that need tackling in our communities. We have seen it on DNA and CCTV, and we are now seeing it on ASBOs. The changes are a reprehensible and retrograde step.

On the same theme, I do not welcome the same party’s introducing thresholds for low-value shoplifting, which we had a strong discussion about in Committee. When the Association of Convenience Stores, which represents 33,000 shopkeepers across the country, is worried about such criminality and the changes relating to low-value shoplifting, the party of law and order—as was, but not anymore—needs to give some serious consideration to the matter.

We support aspects of the Bill, then, but firmly do not support other aspects. On balance—to let you into a secret, Madam Deputy Speaker—Labour Members will give the Bill an unopposed Third Reading, but we will seek to take those matters forward. As I have said, we have to deal with what is in the Bill on Third Reading. We have identified important shortcomings, but we will grant the Third Reading. The Government must reflect further on the issues that have been debated, which have been raised by Members of all parties. Some issues have seen cross-party co-operation—for example, on the importance of dog notices, on the points about covert policing raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington and on how to protect shop workers and other staff from assaults at work. Domestic violence and gun control are other serious issues debated in Committee on which I hope the other place will reflect carefully. Another issue to be considered is that of legal highs and reducing their availability in our communities.

While we are giving fair wind to the Bill, I hope that the other place will look carefully at the improvements we have suggested and listen not just to what Members have said today about dog notices, but to what all organisations have said about them. We want the other place to look at bringing forward measures to tackle covert policing, to protect people from assaults at work and further to reduce and stop the potential for gun use, for domestic violence and for legal highs.

I thank the Minister for his consideration in Committee, but we think there is more to be done. We think that we have been constructive on Second Reading, in Committee and on Report about the changes that need to be made. Ultimately, we think that the issues I have mentioned that are not covered by the Bill now will be part of it following consideration in the House of Lords.

I have enjoyed my role as shadow policing Minister and move on now to shadow Minister on immigration. I thank my colleagues for their support over the three years in opposition and one year in government in which I have discharged this role. I look forward to watching from afar as this Bill is further improved following consideration by the other place.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Hanson Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I share my hon. Friend’s belief in the need for change. It is my intention that the Conservative party should go into the next election with a clear plan for change, and it will. This is now a clear dividing line between us, because the shadow Secretary of State has only today reasserted his belief that the current human rights framework is right for this country. We disagree, and I look forward to fighting that battle over the next 18 months.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

When the Minister quotes the Offender Management Act 2007, will he do me the courtesy of looking at the Hansard for that period, when the Minister in question—that is, me—said that the vast majority of probation boards would stay in public ownership?

[Jeremy Wright]

I quoted directly from the Act, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that I quoted correctly. I was asked a question about what the Act says. I quoted what it says. How he might have meant it to be interpreted is something else. I am afraid he and his hon. Friends must recognise that if they passed a law they did not mean to pass, that is not our problem but theirs.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Hanson Excerpts

Thursday 5th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

T4. Wales had a successful Olympics, which included Jade Jones from my constituency winning gold. Have Ministers seen the comments of the chair of Sport Wales, who said that the cuts to local authorities in the United Kingdom were putting the Olympic legacy at risk? Does the Minister agree?

[Hugh Robertson]

No, I do not. Let us look at the Olympic legacy. The fact that we ran the best ever Olympic and Paralympic games has been a fantastic boon for this country. We are the first home nation ever to increase the investment in Olympic and Paralympic athletes—the investment in Paralympic athletes has increased by 43%. Participation is up by 1.4 million, an extra £150 million is going to primary schools and we have assembled the best ever list of major sporting events to come to this country. No other host nation has assembled a legacy to beat that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

What I would like to do is paint the correct picture, which the hon. Lady is not doing. I can give her either the latest international statistics, which show that out of 55 countries the UK is leading in all 23 indicators, or the latest national statistics, from 2 July, which show that the gap closed in nine out of 14 headline indicators. In 2005-06 and 2009-10, that was true of only seven categories. I can therefore tell the hon. Lady that, on the very latest statistics from 2 July this year, inequalities have reduced and equalities have increased in education, employment and social inclusion, and we also have lower rates of relative poverty. Please get the facts right.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

6. What recent representations she has received from the women’s sector on tackling violence against women.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

The Government regularly engage with organisations representing women’s interests, through quarterly stakeholder meetings, representation at the violence against women and girls inter-ministerial group and other ongoing meetings.

[Mr Hanson]

Sadly, since the election the number of incidents of domestic violence has risen, while the number of prosecutions has fallen by 11% and the number of referrals to the Crown Prosecution Service has fallen by 13%. Might that have something to do with cutting 15,000 police officers, when the Minister himself promised 3,000 more at the election?

[Mr Browne]

The right hon. Gentleman neglected to mention at the end of his question that this Government have presided over a fall in crime of over 10%. We now have the lowest level of crime in this country since the independent survey began. The Government treat domestic violence extremely seriously. We are keen to see the police investigate all reports of domestic violence, and I am also pleased to tell the House that there have been record numbers of convictions for violence against women and girls over the past year.

Firearms Controls

David Hanson Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I join other Members serving under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan, in addressing this important issue. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) on bringing the matter of gun control to the House again and on raising it so effectively on numerous occasions.

The debate is about a specific aspect of gun control: how we reduce the small percentage of gun deaths resulting from actions taken by individuals with a history of domestic violence or of alcohol and other problems. We have had a useful debate, including the contribution from the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), which contained nuggets worthy of pursuit. He raised issues about the way in which firearms are licensed, which the Minister should address. Although there was a swathe of his comments I cannot agree with, he has raised some important points.

It is also worth mentioning that the hon. Members for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin), for Lincoln (Karl MᶜCartney), for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) have taken the time to come to the debate to intervene and to add their expertise to our discussions.

My hon. Friend the Member for Easington approached the issue in a measured, reflective and considered way. On his doorstep, he has faced what can only be described as an enormous tragedy, with Mr Michael Atherton’s murders of Susan McGoldrick, Alison Turnbull and Tanya Turnbull on 1 January 2012. That has highlighted to him a way in which we could tighten the legislation to prevent such incidents in the future. As he said, he has not jumped to conclusions; he has looked at this matter.

I, too, have not jumped to conclusions; I have looked at what the Home Affairs Committee, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, Durham police and ACPO have said about the steps the Government could take to mitigate the circumstances we are talking about. I agree with the hon. Member for The Cotswolds that they may be small in number, but that does not mean we should ignore the issue. There is real merit in looking not only at the guidance, but at whether we need legislative back-up to reduce the potential for incidents such as the one that took place in my hon. Friend’s constituency last January.

I fully accept, as the hon. Member for North Herefordshire said, that this boils down to judgment. Judgment is important, but it is now coloured by not only the old guidance, but, potentially, the new guidance issued this month. However, it can also be coloured by legislation, and my hon. Friend made the case for small tweaks during the passage of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill to strengthen previous and current guidance, applying additional rigour and scrutiny to applications for gun or shotgun licences. It is that potential which I support.

As we have heard, there is a pressing need for action better to control firearm violence, small though the number of cases may be. My hon. Friend pointed out that one in three women killed by their domestic partner is shot with a legally owned weapon. Some 64% of those murders involved shotguns. In the past 12 months, 75% of female gun deaths occurred in a domestic setting; in 2009, the figure was 100%. Whatever our view of the small number of deaths caused by shotguns or guns, that figure shows that a high percentage of women who die in domestic violence situations do so as a result of someone using a gun or shotgun.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Those are important figures. Members are saying that the problem is relatively small, given the large number of licences that are issued, and that people use firearms properly. However, evidence from Canada suggests that if we went down the route I suggested, we could dramatically reduce the number of fatalities—particularly those where partners or ex-partners involved in domestic violence use a firearm.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hanson]

That is worthy of examination. Nobody is saying that the two women per week killed by a husband, partner or ex are killed with shotguns or guns. However, if a significant body of evidence says there is a high correlation between gun deaths of women and domestic violence, the issue is worthy of consideration.

[Bill Wiggin]

One must never underestimate the importance of doing everything we can to combat any form of domestic violence. However, I urge the shadow Minister to be careful, because two thirds of these murders—that is what they are—are not caused by firearms.

Are people applying for guns so that they can murder people? No, they are not. Does the fact that guns are available force somebody to go to a gun cupboard, unlock it, take the gun out and commit murder? If that is the process they go through, it does not matter what the law says, because they are determined to commit a crime so serious that they deserve to go to prison for the rest of their lives. We have to be careful to think about why these things take place, rather than how they take place.

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that important point, which we need to reflect on. However, other domestic violence deaths occur because of the use of the body—the hands—or of day-to-day items around the house, such as knives. We cannot control or legislate for such potential activity, but we can reduce the risk posed by access to shotguns, which are not day-to-day items readily available around the house, where there is substantiated evidence that people—this is not about all the hon. Gentleman’s constituents or all my constituents—are guilty of violent conduct, domestic violence, or drug or alcohol abuse. That, in a sense, is what the guidance said previously, and it is what the revised guidance, announced at the end of July and issued by the Minister, is trying to do.

The discussion we had in the Committee considering the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, and the discussion we are having today, is about whether we could back up that guidance with the rigour of legislation. That would reduce the ability of the courts to make a determination about the judgment of the police. ACPO has made representations to me, saying that police forces refused an application for a firearm licence on three separate occasions, but, despite the deputy chief constable or the chief constable appearing in court to defend the decision, the courts upheld the appeal because there were not sufficient legal grounds to refuse the individual’s application.

If we look at the wording of my new clause 4 to the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, which will be debated in October—[Interruption.] I hope the hon. Member for North Herefordshire will examine it with interest. Let me tell him, however, that I doubt it is perfect; I do not have the great back-up of the Home Office, as I once did when I held ministerial office. However, the Minister does, and he could reflect on the principle of new clause 4 over the next few weeks before Report to see whether legislative back-up of the guidance is practicable and deliverable. That would at least ensure that we had a black-and-white judgment, rather than a judgment based on a court interpretation.

Members do not need to listen to me, although I hope they will. They could, however, listen to the Independent Police Complaints Authority. Having looked at my hon. Friend’s constituency case, it said in its first recommendation:

“The Home Office should revise the current legislation and guidance to allow for a single uniform test for the assessment of suitability and fitness to possess both firearms and shotguns. ‘Fitness to be entrusted’ should form a specific element of the shotgun application process to ensure clarity and consistency around both applications.”

The word “legislation” was included by the IPCC. In finding 3 of the report it said:

“The Home Office, Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and the College of Policing should devise clear guidance and tighter restrictions around applications for firearms or shotgun certificates”.

I venture to suggest that the guidance element has been examined, but will the Minister confirm that to date the IPCC’s legislation recommendation has not been met?

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

The right hon. Gentleman has just made my case. He has read out two paragraphs from the report. One asks for legislation about a person’s fitness to hold a shotgun or firearms licence. I do not know quite how legislation about someone who has been involved in a domestic incident would be framed, or the exact nature of the incident that would contribute to someone’s not being a fit person to hold a firearms licence.

Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman referred to guidance. It is much easier to frame such matters in guidance. Before he rushes to call for extra legislation, does he know how many times, in other force areas, someone who has been involved in a serious incident of domestic violence has not had his licence revoked?

[Mr Hanson]

The IPCC also said in its report that the legislation should be devised in particular to

“take account of bind-overs, arrests and police call outs for domestic violence and an accumulation of convictions for offences where the penalty falls short of that requiring prohibition”.

That means that if someone has a history of a range of matters to do with domestic violence, but has not yet fallen foul of the guidance so as to prevent their having a shotgun licence, that should be sufficient in legislation to ensure that the guidance is tighter. That should be backed up by strong legislation, and we have attempted to draft such legislation in new clause 4 to the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill. I sense a difference between my view and that of the hon. Member for The Cotswolds. That is the nature of our debates, but our intention is to put to the Minister, in the measured way of my hon. Friend the Member for Easington, suggestions for helping to reduce such incidents.

My hon. Friend mentioned the issue of full cost recovery for shotgun and other firearms licences. There was a nugget in the remarks of the hon. Member for The Cotswolds, about improving the licensing procedure, that sparked some interest in me. It may come as a surprise to hon. Members that only this year ACPO gave the net cost to police forces of shotgun licences as £18.6 million. The debate has focused primarily on domestic violence, but the Minister needs to reflect on what he will do to ensure that we deal with the current costs.

I will give three examples. North Wales police spent more than £417,000 on issuing licences, but recouped only £113,000 in licence fees, which means that taxpayers in my constituency faced a net cost of £303,000 for supporting the issuing of police licences. In Devon and Cornwall, a £1.2 million total cost generated only £514,000 in revenue. In Thames Valley, £928,000 of cost generated only £148,000, leaving a net cost to the local ratepayers of £780,000.

At a time when we are potentially asking more of the police in relation to shotgun licensing, with legislation at hand, this is an appropriate moment for the Minister to reflect on the cost of licences, and whether taxpayers and ratepayers should continue to subsidise people who apply for them to the tune of £18.6 million this year. The figure is worthy of examination. ACPO has said it would like the fee for a shotgun licence to rise to about £94. That would not mean full recovery of costs, but given that the figure for a licence has not changed in 10 years, there is scope for the Minister to reflect on the matter, or to explain why he is happy for £18.6 million of ratepayers’ money to be taken from police budgets to support the cost of issuing licences to be used for work or sport.

I have touched on only two points, but there is a strong case for the Government and Parliament to consider tightening legislation, to ensure that what happened to Susan McGoldrick, Alison Turnbull and Tanya Turnbull does not happen again, to give the police extra support to work positively on the issue, and at the very least to begin examining the issue of recovering the cost of gun licences. That cost is already a considerable one for the 43 forces, which are hard-pressed by what are, by any stretch of the imagination, severe cuts in their grants.

I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply, and thank my hon. Friend the Member for Easington and other hon. Members for their thoughtful speeches. The Committee on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill will consider new clause 4 after the September recess.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

I am happy to tell the House and my hon. Friend that we are in discussion not only with colleagues at the Department of Health, but with the British Medical Association, the police and, as he knows, shooting organisations over the role GPs can play in ensuring that the licensing process is as effective as it can be. The police generally now contact an individual’s GP when a firearm or shotgun certificate is granted or renewed. That means the GP has the opportunity to raise any concerns they may have, and has resulted in a number of revocations of firearms licences. We now want to explore whether we can build greater safeguards into that arrangement by making the consultation with GPs part of the application process. In doing so, we obviously need to ensure that there is balance around burden and cost. Those discussions continue.

The hon. Member for Easington made a good point about training. The police are taking steps to improve consistency and promote high standards across police firearms licensing departments. Authorised professional practice on firearms licensing will be introduced by the College of Policing early next year to complement the firearms guide. He will be interested to know that Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary is undertaking a scoping exercise on this very issue with a representative number of forces. I hope he welcomes that.

The conclusions of the scoping study will determine whether a full inspection should take place at a future date. I hope the hon. Gentleman is reassured that, first, the College of Policing—a new body designed to enhance professional standards in the police—is producing a new code on the very specific issue he raises, and, secondly, that HMIC is looking at forces to see how the system works in practice. If it decides that the system is not working on the ground, it will mount a full inspection. I am confident that if HMIC concludes that the system has not improved, it will say so and police forces around the country will act.

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point that whether we are talking about guidance or legislation, we need to get it right, but it is at least equally important that individual firearms officers in police forces across the country do their job effectively and consistently. We have taken steps to ensure that that happens.

As I said, we are in the process of revising and updating the whole firearms guide. I am glad to say that that task is nearing completion and should be completed this year. As hon. Members observed, firearms law is complex. There are a large number of separate pieces of legislation, so the revision of the document is a significant step forward in aiding understanding of the law. Sixteen chapters have now been published, and the aim is to complete the revision by the end of September.

[Mr Hanson]

On that point, is not the key issue that although guidance is open to judicial discretion, legislation is open to tighter discretion in the judicial process? Why does the Minister think that a guidance approach will not result in similar judicial discretion, which will allow firearms licences to be issued?

[Damian Green]

The right hon. Gentleman will know from his experience in the Home Office that just as guidance is open to judicial interpretation, so is legislation. I have been involved in passing various laws that the courts have interpreted in a way that surprised me, as the Minister who introduced the legislation. To some extent, it is a distinction without a difference.

Whether we are talking about legislation or guidance, it should be written clearly enough that the amount of judicial interpretation is minimised. That is a job for this House and we need to get better at it. We need to be able to respond more quickly than we have in the past, and, as I said, changing guidance is easier and quicker than changing legislation. With the forthcoming revision of the guide, for the first time, we are ensuring that it can be updated online, which means that updates will be made faster in future. If anomalies arise, perhaps as a result of judicial interpretation, we will be able to respond much faster.

There has been discussion this afternoon about a national licensing authority. We are worried that a central authority would not be in touch with the kind of local information known to police. In his report on the Dunblane tragedy, Lord Cullen recommended that licensing functions remain with the police. We should listen to what he said in the wake of that terrible tragedy.

Police Treatment of Alleged Perpetrators and Victims

David Hanson Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I pay heartfelt tribute to the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) for the diligence with which he has brought this distressing history to the House.

The death of Claire Oldfield-Hampson occurred in 1996. As the hon. Gentleman said, he instigated debates on the issue 12 years ago and in the past couple of years, and he has sought this debate to raise it again. That shows that he has the interests of his constituents at heart and wants to resolve some of the injustices that have occurred, so that other families do not have to experience what Joanne Bryce has experienced on behalf of her sister. That is a positive development for him. I hope that the Minister can give the family some comfort about the circumstances that they have faced.

The justice system self-evidently exists for witnesses and victims. Ultimately, victims are what the justice system is trying to prevent, and we are delivering justice to victims through the whole police, Crown Prosecution Service and courts process. For justice to be effective, it needs to have the confidence of those who use or are brought into the system. I was particularly struck by the hon. Gentleman’s comment that many of the people who enter the system do so for the first time in their lives; they are not law-breakers, but have suffered an injustice. Their experience of the justice system, how their case is treated—how the police, the CPS and the courts deal with them—and the outcome of the process are extremely important as to whether they feel that they have received justice.

I am not familiar with the case of Claire Oldfield-Hampson or the details of the difficulties mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, but from what he said about the investigation, the Cambridgeshire constabulary appears to be guilty of serious failings of process. Such issues can be corrected by good governance on the part of all police forces and of the Home Office. The policy we make in the House of Commons and in government could at least provide some standards, to which we hope everyone would aspire. When victims are treated with such indifference, justice and their confidence in justice are damaged; as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, it also leads to a long period without a feeling of closure, given the concerns expressed. He has done justice by bringing such matters forward, and we need to look at them.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the standards of service we can expect from police forces, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. We should also, however, expect police standards for the service given to victims in the case of serious incidents. Those standards should be codified, presented, monitored and observed. If there are complaints, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, while examining serious incidents, should be able to monitor and give guidance on such matters. I hope that the new College of Policing, which the Minister and I are discussing in detail in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, will give some opportunity for proper guidance to police forces on serious crimes, be they manslaughter or murder, and on the types of service provided as part of the CPS, charging and courts process.

The Minister will probably mention the Victims’ Commissioner, which was established by the previous Government. Louise Casey was the post holder until she moved on, when Baroness Newlove was appointed to the position. I hope that we will be able to use that post to set some of the standards on the rights of victims to which the hon. Gentleman referred, in proceedings in court and in other aspects of the justice system.

My hon. Friends who deal with Justice matters—I am the shadow police Minister—are looking hard at how to strengthen the rights of victims and witnesses in the courts and the criminal justice system. We want to place in statute a victims’ code that would cover the service that victims might expect to receive from the moment that they become a victim through to the closure of the court case, whenever that might be.

In particular, we are looking at how to give legally enforceable duties, enshrined in an Act of Parliament, to criminal justice agencies in a number of key areas. In some cases, that will help and support the objectives mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. One example might be a right to be kept informed by the police as an investigation proceeds, and as the prosecution develops and then proceeds. He made a point about a last-minute change of charge, and that would have been resolved in part by the involvement of the victims in any discussion. The family should have been consulted or at least informed about the CPS involvement, rather than finding out about the charge at a late stage, in a distressing way. Another example for our victims’ code might be the right to have the body of a loved one released within 28 days, except in exceptional circumstances. In particular, there should be a post-conviction right to be informed 28 days in advance of any perpetrator of serious crimes being released from custody, so that victims are aware.

We are also looking at how to give legal entitlements to victims, including the production of a victim impact statement and the right to be treated decently in court, including an explanation of court proceedings in advance. The first time that a victim, witness or supporting family member appears in the proceedings could be their first time in a court, because the situation is the first one serious enough to drive them to court. Ultimately, they are victims and witnesses, not perpetrators. There should also be a right to have sentencing remarks put in writing and to have access to the Victims’ Commissioner who can look at what happens when things go wrong. The commissioner should be a full-time, resourced post able to deal with such matters.

My party are also considering nominating a Minister in the Ministry of Justice or the Home Office to have responsibility for overseeing victims’ issues and to develop victims’ policy. I had such a role in Northern Ireland, when there were many victims. As a Minister, I dealt with cases on all sides of the community, looking at victims’ services and their development. The fact that a Minister had ultimate oversight of such matters meant that they arrived at my door and reached the Victims’ Commissioner.

The next-of-kin issues to which the hon. Gentleman has drawn the attention of the House today are particularly important. The Opposition cannot give him any comfort on them, but they are nevertheless worthy of investigation and discussion. The need to have the killer’s permission as next of kin to release the body, or the permission of the killer’s family to look at the property and its contents, and who should have care of a child, are important issues. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say, but I assure the hon. Member for St Ives that the Opposition will examine such matters, and I will draw them to the attention of my colleagues in the shadow Justice team.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the family of Stephen Lawrence. That case, too, is not typical. There will always be failures in every aspect of our public life—in a small proportion—no matter what happens, but that case holds real lessons, which I hope that we have learned and that will help the chief constable of Derbyshire, Mick Creedon, in examining the Metropolitan police and its historical cases of spying on victims. Doreen Lawrence most certainly was a victim.

My experience, as a constituency Member of Parliament and as a former holder of the Minister’s office, is that police are trying to do a good job in all circumstances. They want to bring people to justice, to ensure that victims are fully involved in the process and to secure justice for victims across the board. There will, sadly, always be areas where those standards are not met, which is why we need a close examination of what the standards should be. We need strong guidance from the Home Office to forces about how we deal with such incidents, and we need to ensure that there is a method of redress if families or even hon. Members feel that they cannot deal with the issues, which is why I strongly support the Victims’ Commissioner and the strong Independent Police Complaints Commission that the Committee on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill is currently considering.

I appreciate the hon. Member for St Ives bringing these issues before the House today. I hope that the family—Joanne Bryce and others who miss Claire to this day—will get some satisfaction from the fact that a Member of Parliament is still arguing for us to improve services for those who follow, and I wish him well in that. We will reflect on what he has said, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s contribution.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Hanson Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am not proposing that access to legal aid for the vulnerable be removed. Every person brought before a court or into a police station, and every person charged with an offence, will have access to legal aid for a defence unless they have sufficient means to pay for it themselves.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Given that a third of prison suicides take place in the first week, what risk assessment have the Government made of the changes to the regime in the first two weeks?

[Jeremy Wright]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows from his previous ministerial experience, risk assessments are made for every prisoner when they arrive in prison. The changes we have announced to the prison regime are about ensuring that prisoners understand at the earliest possible stage that if they comply with the regime and engage with rehabilitation, they will be able to earn privileges. If they do not, they will not, but that does not affect the risk assessment process. I also point out that where there are exceptional reasons due to a particular vulnerability, governors have discretion not to apply those provisions.

Metropolitan Police Service

David Hanson Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) who has done a service to his constituents and to the people of London in bringing this important issue to this Chamber.

The fact that 15 of my right hon. and hon. Friends have attended this debate, plus the hon. Members for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) and for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), shows that they share an interest in the importance of policing in this great city. I have not yet noticed a Liberal Democrat attending this debate. Perhaps they are too embarrassed about their general election pledge for 3,000 extra police officers to turn up in person. We will put that to one side for the moment.

In this debate about the future of the Metropolitan Police, my hon. and right hon. Friends have spoken with passion about their concerns for their constituencies. London is a complex city to police and faces many challenges. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell) mentioned that the Olympics was an important event. Such international events in this great city are commonplace, week in, week out.

We have heard about the importance of recognising the potential for London’s being a focus for terrorist activity and about the prevention of terrorism. My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) mentioned the river boat scheme. We heard of appalling acts of murder in this city from the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster. We heard about gangs and guns, and of the importance of neighbourhood policing, about which my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) talked. We have heard about the historical hangover of the riots in Croydon from my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Steve Reed). During his election campaign, I was pleased to go to Croydon police station to see its importance to the community. Historical inquiries were mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), the Chair of the Select Committee, who is also present, showing the importance of the debate.

Those are big issues, and policing London is a complex matter. The community reassurance that neighbourhood policing brings to London, which has been mentioned by all my right hon. and hon. Friends, and the cohesion not only to fight crime but to be a presence on the streets of London, to communicate with its citizens, have been important. Many of those matters are rightly devolved to the Mayor, but the central contention of my right hon. and hon. Friends today has been—I put this strongly to the Minister—that the choices made by the Mayor in London are wrong and that the choices made by the Minister on budget and organisation since 2010 have compounded those wrongs and made policing in London much more difficult.

As the Minister knows, we have an honest disagreement about funding. When I was the Police Minister, in the last year of the Labour Government, we planned to make some savings on policing—some 12%—but the Minister’s proposals have meant a 20% cut, which is effectively £540 million lost to the Met budget by 2015, or 4,200 police officers. That is a real challenge. From May 2010 to date, the Metropolitan police has lost 2,285 police officers and, importantly, 1,900 police community support officers. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) mentioned the importance of those numbers, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden.

Police station closures are pivotal. We need to make savings in the policing budget in London, no doubt, but 65 police stations are proposed for closure. Today, my hon. Friends the Members for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), for Westminster North (Ms Buck) and for Croydon North have mentioned the importance of those stations to their constituencies, showing that somewhere someone is getting this wrong. The reassurance demanded by the constituents of my right hon. and hon. Friends on such issues is simply not being given. No doubt the Minister will say that crime is down. I welcome the fact that crime in certain areas is falling, but it would be in certain areas, because, after all, Labour put 15 years of investment in as Mayor and as Government. As pointed out today, however, the rate of crimes solved has also fallen; and the level of recorded crime has fallen, but the level of reporting to police is falling.

The issues are serious, and in drawing attention to them I make no criticism of Bernard Hogan-Howe or the Metropolitan police. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West mentioned their service day in, day out, putting their lives at risk. Indeed, on Saturday, I will go to Southwark cathedral to pay tribute to Paul McKeever, the former chair of the Police Federation, who was a Metropolitan police officer. He knew and had pride in the service that the Metropolitan police provide to this great city. The challenges of the budget cut and of the decisions on how that cut is made have been reflected strongly in what my right hon. and hon. Friends have said today.

[Mr Thomas]

Will my right hon. Friend do two things? Will he join me in congratulating Joanne McCartney, a Labour member of the Greater London assembly, who has led the effort to explore the consequences of the Mayor’s budget cuts? Will he also ask the Minister for particular clarity on the Home Office fund for ending gang and youth violence and on whether it will cease in March 2013, as many of us fear, or whether there has been a rethink?

[Mr Hanson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, because we are not concerned only with the direct police budget. Resources also come through the community safety fund, which was mentioned by right hon. and hon. Members. In the last year that I set it, it was £13.2 million for London. This year, it is £5.3 million, and next year it is disappearing altogether. That is £13.2 million in the last year of a Labour Government but that is now no more, in the third year of a Conservative and Liberal Administration.

[Mark Field]

I am glad that the shadow Minister acknowledged that some serious crime rates are coming down in London. We all have great concerns—I share many of those expressed today—but is it not also fair to say that, given the financial constraints that any Government would be under, to be brutally honest, there is vanishingly little between what would have happened had there been a Labour Government in office today, in the sort of grants that they could give via the Home Office to the Mayor, and what has been happening in the past year?

[Mr Hanson]

Let me gently slap the hon. Gentleman down. There is a difference between the 20% cut on policing introduced by this Government in England and Wales and the 12% reduction that we had planned, which had the support of Her Majesty’s inspector of constabulary, which said that it was deliverable and achievable, and that we could have maintained police numbers. The difference in London between the votes he has voted for and the votes that we have voted for amounts to, at the moment, £230 million lost to London policing. That is the difference between him and me. Next Wednesday, he will have an opportunity to look again at the Minister’s budget. I can give the Minister a hint. Just between you and me, Mr Streeter, we will be voting against his budget next Wednesday. My right hon. and hon. Friends will do so because that budget needs to be reviewed.

My hon. Friends have mentioned gang and youth violence funding, gangs and knife violence funding and substance misuse funding. They are all difficult challenges for which funding has been lost. On the diversity issue mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East, for example, in London 34% of PCSOs are from black and minority ethnic backgrounds and when we lose 986 of them by 2015, the effect on the numbers of black and ethnic minority police officers and PCSOs on the streets of London will be disproportionate.

In conclusion, my right hon. and hon. Friends have made valuable points. We need to look again at the budget. When we reject it, the Minister will have the opportunity to go back and think about it again. We need to look at accountability, because now the London deputy mayor responsible for policing is not as accountable as the police board was in the past. We need to look at the role of the Met in national policing. We need to look at how we can improve diversity—perhaps the Minister can tell me why the last time the Home Office diversity group met was when I chaired it in December 2009. It has not met since, according to his parliamentary answers. The issue is real, and my right hon. and hon. Friends have spoken for London, I hope the Minister will listen.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Hanson Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Wright]

I certainly agree that what people do is just as important as where they do it, and I congratulate those involved in the work that he described at Stafford prison. However, very often what people do is despite the environment in which they are working, rather than because of it, and my hon. Friend will accept readily, I am sure, that where we can provide newer accommodation, it will make it easier for people to do the good work on rehabilitation that he and I both support.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that with 800 or 900 prisoners a year from north Wales going outside north Wales, there is a need for prison accommodation in north Wales, but that the debate that he is having now would be better served by more discussion, more plans and a meeting with Members of Parliament to see whether we can reach some consensus?

Transforming Rehabilitation

David Hanson Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with working with the private and voluntary sectors in the justice system; I did it when I was the Justice Minister. I have two questions to put to the Secretary of State, if I may. First, on resilience, how does he know that the organisations with these contracts, like G4S in the Olympics, will be able to deliver? Secondly, on accountability, things will go wrong in the justice system, cases will be disastrous and things will be serious. Who will ultimately be accountable to this House and to the public for the errors and mistakes?

[Chris Grayling]

The simple answer to the latter point is that responsibility will continue to lie with the public probation service and, ultimately, the Secretary of State. The right hon. Gentleman and I know that in any system with a rate of reoffending there will be further crimes, whether a public, private or voluntary sector provider does the work. I want to ensure that the level of reoffending continues to go down and that we try every means at our disposal. The payment-by-results regime opens the way to innovation to ensure that we do the best possible job in ensuring that people do not reoffend.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Hanson Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Grant]

As I said, that funding will continue. The National Offender Management Service has funded women’s services very successfully for many years. The funding for women’s services will continue at the same level, but from 2013-14 probation trusts will commission these vital services.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that one of the best ways to ensure that women do not enter the criminal justice system is to use restorative justice more imaginatively for out-of-court disposals? Will she give a commitment to examine that in detail, particularly for women offenders?

[Mrs Grant]

Yes, I am happy to give that commitment.