Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 5

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 30th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Robin Walker)]

I beg to move,

That this House takes note of and approves the Report pursuant to Section 3(12) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 - Use of discretionary powers to provide assistance and support under section 18(9) of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015, which was laid before this House on Wednesday 4 September.

It is an honour to speak for the first time as a Northern Ireland Office Minister, though by no means for the first time on Northern Ireland matters.

On 4 September, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State laid before Parliament a report on the use of powers to provide support and assistance under section 18(9) of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015. As Members will know, the policy on modern slavery is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland and is dealt with by the Northern Ireland Department of Justice. I thank officials from the Department for the assistance they have provided in producing this report.

Modern slavery is a truly abhorrent practice that can often have long-lasting physical and psychological effects on its victims. It is unsettling to realise that those who are vulnerable in our society could be subjected to such crimes, but the distressing reality is that callous traffickers and enslavers are operating across the UK, including in Northern Ireland. I recognise and welcome the significant good work that daily continues to be taken forward by partners in Northern Ireland, across Government and by statutory agencies, civil society and the Police Service of Northern Ireland, in seeking to tackle this issue.

We know that modern slavery is happening in Northern Ireland and I am aware that the Department of Justice has recently welcomed a number of convictions under the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act. This is encouraging, as it undermines any low-risk, high-profit perceptions that might have been held by exploiters and traffickers and sends out a strong message that modern slavery will not be tolerated in Northern Ireland. As with the rest of the UK, Northern Ireland has in general seen increasing numbers of referrals to the national referral mechanism over the past five years.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Will the Minister congratulate the PSNI on what it did today and over the weekend when it caught some of those involved in human trafficking and its after-effects? Does it perhaps show that the PSNI needs this legislative back-up to pursue criminals who do not care about people as individuals but look upon the people they traffic not as people but as commodities? The PSNI can do its job, but the Minister and the Government need to do theirs alongside it.

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. I was going to come to the actions of the PSNI in my closing remarks, but let me congratulate it on its work. It is clear that, while the legislative framework is slightly different in Northern Ireland from that in the UK, it is enforcing the law actively, which sends an important message to the traffickers. He will recognise that the report relates to specific support under the law of Northern Ireland, rather than to the issue of who is arrested and for what, but his point is very valid, and certainly I am unstinting in my praise for the work of the PSNI in protecting the victims of trafficking and indeed protecting the whole of society across Northern Ireland.

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Lady makes a powerful point. I want to come to the elements in the report that focus on the support to victims of trafficking—that is what it is really focused on. It is important that we send a message, as we have done in our many discussions in the wider debate about human trafficking in this place—that the victims should be protected and reassured wherever possible that their rights will be respected. I join her in acknowledging that.

The number of referrals has gone up, perhaps as a result of greater awareness of the issue and increased reporting. Tackling modern slavery is a key priority for the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland and, as we have discussed, for the PSNI, and I commend them for the work they have done with other Departments that have significant roles, such as the Department of Health, which is responsible for child protection.

I know that across the statutory agencies and civil society organisations with which the Department is working there is a group of hugely committed and dedicated people who are pursuing offenders, providing essential support to victims so that they can rebuild their lives, and actively raising awareness or trying to reduce demand.

[Jim Shannon]

There is an organisation in my main town of Newtownards. It is a charity group and probably a church group as well. The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) referred to aftercare and the follow-on. I think that is what it does. Will there be funding, grant aid and assistance to help those organisations doing such marvellous work, albeit under the radar—they have probably never heard their name mentioned. They are doing the work where it matters and some assistance to help them would be gratefully received if possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fiona Bruce]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention.

In 2015, the Northern Ireland Assembly became the first legislature in the United Kingdom to pass comprehensive human trafficking legislation. I commend Lord Morrow on his leading role in initiating that legislation and the Assembly on fully supporting its wide-ranging provisions. In some areas, it goes further than the human trafficking legislation in England and Wales, the Modern Slavery Act 2015, in providing statutory assistance and support for victims during the process of confirming victims, which is known as the national referral mechanism. There is also a fully implemented scheme of independent guardians for trafficked children. An article published in the journal Statute Law Review in 2016 described that Northern Ireland Act as “an impressive instrument”.

Section 18 of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) sets out the first statutory support for victims, or potential victims still to be assessed, of a minimum of 45 days during the NRM process, but it also recognises that there are times when that support would need to be extended. Again, the Northern Ireland Assembly was ahead of the rest of the UK in that regard, because section 18(9) specifically allows for assistance and support to be extended beyond the point where a victim receives a positive conclusive grounds decision at the discretion of the Department of Justice. Indeed, it is one of the more bizarre features of the current system of identifying victims of trafficking that, once fully recognised as a victim, the state offers them no further statutory support. As the previous anti-slavery commissioner said,

“supporting a potential victim until the conclusive decision is made and then ceasing support so abruptly could be damaging for the victim and negatively affect their recovery.”

In 2013-14, Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly envisaged that there could be circumstances in which it is not in the best interests of the victim for support to be stopped if they receive a positive conclusive-grounds decision. The Assembly was ahead of its time in recognising the need for victims to receive support beyond that point. The report that we are considering shows that, for the past three financial years, 17 victims received that additional support. That is welcome, although sadly the numbers are low. Will the Minister give us some more information on how long the victims were supported and say why information is scant? Will he confirm that those 17 did indeed receive that extended support after they had had a positive conclusive-grounds decision?

Northern Ireland introduced that pioneering legislation, and there has been much debate and dialogue about what assistance should be provided, and for how long. It has become clear that the extent of stability and support that victims need to help them on a pathway to recover beyond the NRM potentially has a huge impact on their ability to recover, on their resilience to the very real risk of re-trafficking, and on their capacity and confidence to participate in police investigations and court proceedings against their traffickers. They need that support to enable them to have the confidence to stand up and do so.

[Jim Shannon]

Does the hon. Lady recognise the international aspect of human trafficking? The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) referred to local paramilitaries, both loyalist and republican, being involved in human trafficking. In many cases, the people who are trafficked are from eastern European countries, so the internationalism of criminal gangs must be taken into consideration. Under the legislation that has been introduced to help the victims, that internationalism must be considered so that we find the right way forward.

[Fiona Bruce]

That is why I was disappointed that there was no reply to the third aspect of the report, on information relating to the immigration status of individuals. It was not so much that I wanted to see particular information, but it might have indicated a pattern of trafficking to this country from certain other jurisdictions, which could be helpful in tackling the problem further.

I have spoken a number of times about the need for much greater support for trafficked victims, which was acknowledged in a court case in June by the Home Office, albeit in an out-of-court settlement with victims of human trafficking. If the Home Office has acknowledged that in a case in this jurisdiction, it should consider that that has implications for Northern Ireland. Forty-five days is better than nothing, but it is still not enough. Several reports and Committees have stated that in recent years, and I shall highlight a few. The Select Committee on Work and Pensions produced an important report on victims of modern slavery as long ago as 2015 and strongly recommended personal recovery plans for victims of up to 12 months in cases in which they wanted to stay in the UK. More recently, the British Red Cross, in its July 2019 report, “Hope for the future”, repeated those needs. The Home Affairs Committee is running an inquiry into the impact of the Modern Slavery Act 2015, including, because it knows that it needs to be looked at, levels of support for victims and how that can be improved. The independent review of the Modern Slavery Act, led by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field), along with the Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee and Baroness Butler-Sloss, stated in its final report in May this year that there was a need for improved victim support, even though victim support was not in its remit. It said that

“it cannot be right that the Government provides no standardised post-NRM support offer for victims, who are often still incredibly vulnerable, and this can increase their vulnerability to being re-trafficked and re-exploited.”

As I have said, victims who receive support are more likely to be able to work with the police in any investigation of their traffickers and provide important evidence in court.

Following Northern Ireland’s example, Lord McColl of Dulwich introduced the Modern Slavery (Victim Support) Bill at the beginning of this Session in the other place. It is being taken through this House by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith) no less, and it recommends 12 months’ support. That is the kind of support that is needed, with the option of different services to meet an individual’s particular needs. I understand that it is possible that, if the Government accept the Bill, the measure will relate not only to England and Wales, but could easily be extended to Northern Ireland. I would appreciate a meeting with the Minister to discuss that and other aspects of my speech.

I sincerely hope that the McColl Bill will be considered in the House so that we can debate more fully the benefits of providing longer-term support for victims. The University of Nottingham Rights Lab recently published a cost-benefit analysis of providing support to victims in England and Wales on the basis of the provisions in the Bill. It estimated, staggeringly, that there would be a direct and indirect net benefit to society of up to £25.1 million from providing all confirmed victims with 12 months of support to help their rehabilitation.

The report of the independent review of the Modern Slavery Act, to which I have referred, called for standardised support for victims wherever they are trafficked in the UK. The Government report on trafficking that we are discussing gives very few details on why the 17 individuals were given further support. It is inadequate for it to say that the reason that the Department of Justice decided that it was necessary to provide assistance related to the general policy intent underpinning the provision. That is the rationale behind the regulation—it does not give us any detailed information. The response is barely five lines long. When one considers some of the desperate situations that people can face when they are trafficked, it is completely inadequate to have so little information to help us understand how they can be helped further. Will the Minister let us know whether or not officials who have made decisions to extend support have received any guidance on how to make those decisions? If there is guidance, can he place a copy in the Library? If there is no guidance, how are decisions made as officials consider the case of each individual victim?

Scotland Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 9th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Angus Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman will have time to make a speech later. There is very little time, and I am the first parliamentarian from the SNP to be called in these proceedings more than an hour after the beginning of this debate.

The sole purpose of the Scotland Bill is to implement the Smith commission in full. The UK Government’s amendments are a welcome admission that the Scotland Bill, as published, did not deliver Smith. However, the Government’s amendments tabled on Report still fail to deliver Smith and still fail Scotland. SNP Members have tabled a range of amendments that will give the people of Scotland the powers they were promised and the powers that they will need. We have tabled amendments on tax credits, which would devolve control over all aspects of working and child tax credits, and on employment rights, which would devolve control over employment rights and industrial relations to the Scottish Parliament. We will debate those in the next group of amendments, when they will be addressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford).

We have also tabled new clause 36 to devolve the power to hold a referendum on Scottish independence to the Scottish Parliament. There should only be another referendum on Scottish independence when the people of Scotland indicate that they want one, but it is right that the Scottish Parliament—the people of Scotland’s Parliament—should hold the power to react to the wishes of the people of Scotland.

We should not lose sight of the fiscal framework. That is the financial underpinning that will allow the transfer of powers to operate without detriment to the people of Scotland.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I spoke to the right hon. Gentleman before the debate, so he knew that this question was coming. This debate is clearly about the constitution and tax. The Scottish Parliament intends to end tax relief for sporting estates, which bring substantial revenue and many jobs to Scotland. Scotland is famed for its outstanding scenery and tremendous field sports opportunities. This must be about the approach to managing natural resources. Does he agree that, when it comes to recreating tax forms and making sure that the distribution of moneys is correct, this is a great opportunity to enshrine safe ground partnership principles at the heart of government?

[Angus Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman has put his point of view on the record. I encourage him to get in touch directly with the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs, Food and Environment in Scotland, Richard Lochhead. We are proud of the Scottish Government’s rural affairs agenda. Incidentally, I commend the hon. Gentleman’s party for turning up in greater strength to this debate than the Liberal Democrats.

To hold the 2014 referendum, the Scottish and UK Governments were required to agree a section 30 order, which amended schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, to grant the Scottish Government the legislative competence to hold a referendum, providing that a number of conditions were met—namely, that it was held before the end of 2014 and that the ballot paper included one question.

New clause 36 would permanently transfer to the Scottish Parliament the power to legislate for a referendum on Scottish independence. It is right that the Scottish Parliament should decide on that, and not this place. As the First Minister has made clear, the SNP manifesto for next year’s Scottish election will set out our position on a second independence referendum and consider in what circumstances such a referendum might be appropriate at some point in the future. However, the final decision on whether there is another referendum and on whether Scotland ever becomes independent will always be for the people of Scotland.

In the meantime, I observe that support for Scottish independence has continued to grow. If people back home are watching this debate, I have no doubt that it will rise even further. A Panelbase poll for The Sunday Times found that 47% of people in Scotland currently support independence and that more than two thirds believe that the country will be independent by 2045.

Support for independence has risen as the UK Government have failed to meet their promises on more powers; continued with austerity; introduced further welfare cuts; and promoted English votes for English laws. Since the referendum, the UK Government’s attitude towards Scotland has angered a great many people. Those who are watching proceedings today have good reason to be angered yet more. On EVEL, the Scotland Bill and austerity, the UK Government have shown scant regard for the voice of the people of Scotland.

We will not lose sight of the financial arrangements that relate to the Bill. We raised them in Scottish questions last week. We understand that a negotiating process is under way between the UK Government and the Scottish Government. It is critical that that financial framework is negotiated in good faith between both Governments and without detriment to the people of Scotland.

Scotland Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 6th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

I am delighted to respond this evening. We have heard a wide range of views—albeit some ranging away from the proposed amendments—and I thank hon. Members for all their contributions.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) spoke to clause 49, on which the Smith commission agreement was explicit that the power to allow public sector operators to bid for rail franchises funded and specified by Scottish Ministers would be devolved. Amendments 157 and 158 are unnecessary. Amendment 157 is not necessary as not-for-profit entities, public or private, are not precluded from being franchisees already. Amendment 158 would create unnecessary uncertainty by allowing discretion on whether a public sector bidder could join a live procurement process and therefore does not enhance the drafting in any way. New clause 65 would give the Scottish Parliament full competence over railways. That clearly goes beyond the Smith commission agreement, and would create the potential for unwanted disruption of networks and relationships between franchise authorities, passenger services and cross-border operations. I therefore urge right hon. and hon. Members to withdraw amendments 157 and 158 and new clause 65.

Turning to energy company obligations and fuel poverty, amendments 149 to 153 would depart from the Smith commission agreement. The agreement recognised that decisions that could impact on all Great Britain consumers have an impact on the Great Britain energy market as a whole and on UK international obligations that should be made at a Great Britain-wide level and remain reserved. Costs incurred by energy companies owing to supplier obligations affect all Great Britain’s consumers. Different costs incurred by a supplier in one area of Great Britain may cause competitive disadvantages and higher costs for customers in other areas. We think it would be in the interests of both UK and Scottish Ministers that costs on consumers in one part of Great Britain should not be disproportionate to their benefits. We believe that proportionate costs across regions removes the possibility of those competitive distortions and cross-subsidy by consumers across Great Britain. We will look at ways of making the cost of obligations clear and equitable between Scotland and the rest of Great Britain, and will work with the Scottish Government to identify the best way of achieving that.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly raised the question of who will decide what causes detriment to the UK. I can assure him that we will work with the Scottish Government to set up a process and methodology for evaluating the impact of schemes implemented in Scotland on their own, and in conjunction with schemes implemented in England and Wales, on the Great Britain energy market and on any relevant UK commitments and obligations. I can tell him that UK and Scottish Government officials have already begun working together to scope out how such a process could work.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The Minister refers to how to address the price of energy in different regions of the United Kingdom. One of the things we would like in Northern Ireland, if at all possible, is a connector between Scotland and Northern Ireland, which would reduce our prices. Is that part of the Government’s strategy? She has not mentioned Northern Ireland and I am conscious that I would like it included.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I think the hon. Gentleman means an interconnector. I am absolutely a huge fan of interconnectors. That is not a part of the Bill, but I can assure him that I am happy to discuss that at any time and to facilitate conversations with the Scottish Parliament. I am, however, quite sure he will not need me to do that and is able to discuss that with them directly.

Our proposals on energy company obligations and fuel poverty are fair to all consumers and align with the Smith commission agreement. I urge hon. Members not to press amendments 149 to 153.

Let me turn to renewables incentives. Amendment 154 would remove subsections (2) and (3) of new section 90C of the Scotland Act 1998, in clause 53, such that changes of a minor, technical or administrative nature would no longer be excluded from the requirement to consult Scottish Ministers, nor those made by the Secretary of State that are not subject to parliamentary procedure. The hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Callum McCaig) has raised his concerns about this area of consultation. Removing subsection (3) would remove the exclusion to consult the Scottish Ministers on any levy in connection with a renewable electricity incentive scheme. Amendment 154 would require consultation not just on the design of renewable incentive schemes, but on their operation. This would not be in keeping with the Smith commission agreement and would lead to over-complex and time-consuming consultations that would affect the smooth operation of the schemes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd July 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to promote the south-west as a holiday destination. We should do everything we can to help. Obviously, the restoration of the transport links has been vital. It is difficult to have differential rates of VAT on some of these things, but everything we can do to promote the UK as a holiday destination—including, for instance, the brilliant fact that the Tour de France is coming here this weekend—we should do.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Q12. Cancer Research UK has just launched its new strategy—a focus on tailoring treatment to individuals, which should prove more effective in combating cancer. How will the Prime Minister ensure that the NHS is in a position to enable access to radiotherapy and ensure that cancer drugs are available for all regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[The Prime Minister]

The cancer drugs fund has been a huge breakthrough not just in making available drugs but some important treatments, too. I hope that other parts of the United Kingdom will take up what we are doing with the cancer drugs fund. Another thing we can do is to make sure, by working with Genomics England, that we are sequencing genomes as fast as we can so that we can carry out the research necessary to see which cancer drugs will be effective on which patients in accordance with their DNA. This will be the modern way to do tailored medicine, and I am very pleased to say that Britain is well ahead of the pack when it comes to investing in our universities and science base as well as in our NHS.

Constitutional Law

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir Malcolm Bruce]

I had all the right places, but not in the right order—a bit like Morecombe and Wise’s piano notes. My right hon. Friend’s point is valid: of course nationalists will continue to fight for Scottish independence, whatever the outcome of the referendum, but I do not think that Scotland or the United Kingdom wants years of wrangling that prevents us from getting on with the business of working together to deliver results. It is in everybody’s interests, once we have taken the decision in 2014, that we should live with the consequences for at least a political generation. Indeed, the SNP would need to reflect on changing its relationship with the United Kingdom. Now, it tries to discredit anything and everything done in the name of the United Kingdom in order to further the case for breaking the link, but I believe there will come a point at which the SNP might have to acknowledge that the people of Scotland, if they decide to remain in the United Kingdom, will want their politicians to take a constructive rather than destructive role within the United Kingdom.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

As an Ulster Scot who has seen the strong relationship between Scotland and Northern Ireland—the English and Welsh have such a relationship, too—may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he feels it is important that the campaign and referendum should focus on nuclear power, which affects the whole United Kingdom, the MOD bases, the Army and sterling and monetary matters as well as fishing rights, which affect people in Northern Ireland, and North sea oil? All those issues are important not just to Scotland but to the whole of the United Kingdom. For that reason, they should think very clearly in Scotland before the decision is made.

[Sir Malcolm Bruce]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I shall take note of your encouragement, Madam Deputy Speaker, not to go into too much detail, but of course this is a decision that will be taken in Scotland and in which the whole United Kingdom has an interest. I think we have moved on. When the Prime Minister intervened on this issue 12 months ago, he was initially criticised for interfering in Scottish domestic affairs, but people quickly recognised that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom has a legitimate interest in the future of the United Kingdom and the right to take part in the debate. It is equally true that the decision on the future of Scotland must be taken in Scotland through a process made in Scotland, which is why we are discussing the order today.

I and my political party have been almost obsessed with the progress of home rule towards federalism for my whole lifetime. Indeed, if we look back across the history of the Liberal party we can see that has been the case for at least 100 years or even, in the case of Irish home rule, 150 years. We not only can but probably have bored people with a considerable amount of detail. That detail proved extremely useful in the process of developing the Scotland Bill through the constitutional convention, and the work that we, the Labour party, the Greens, the trade unions, the Churches and the business organisations did together was influenced by the fact that many of us had thought about it in considerable detail before we had the opportunity to implement it.

It remains a matter of some astonishment to me that the Scottish National party, which lives for nothing other than Scottish independence, appears to have so little command of the detail of what that would involve and is presenting it on the basis of unilateral, unfounded and unsupportable assertions. That is relevant in the context of the time scale on the back of the briefing notes, alluded to by the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West, which point out that the Scottish Government propose to produce a White Paper next November. That is more than two years after they were elected and only a year before we are supposed to make a decision. As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) pointed out when he intervened to make the case for Northern Ireland, many fundamental questions must be answered. As the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart)—speaking, I would guess, as much for the border as for Penrith—has rightly asserted, these are not questions that can only be answered in Scotland.

Those questions must be answered in Scotland and outside it, which is why the debate must be conducted with recognition that this is not some parochial, internal matter for the future of Scotland. It affects how Scotland might relate to the Bank of England, the European Commission, NATO, the UN and any other multilateral or international organisation. That is of course crucial, but the implications of the change for the rest of the UK are also important. Many people in Scotland will seek to balance those two questions when considering how to vote.

Scottish Separation

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Thank you for bringing me forward in the schedule, Sir Roger. I hope that hon. Members understand the reason for that. I appreciate it very much.

First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) on bringing this matter to the Chamber today. It is not often that I disagree with my Scottish National party colleagues. We agree on many issues, mostly bread-and-butter issues, on which we strive together to make life for all our constituents better. However, I cannot agree with them when it comes to Scottish independence and I certainly want to place that on the record.

We all know the film “Braveheart”. It is well known to everyone. It is a wonderful film, one that I have watched on numerous occasions and, if I am spared, I will certainly watch again. The star of the show is that well-known Scotsman, Mel Gibson. In that film, the English are killing the natives, abusing the womenfolk and stealing the land—there is total destruction.

[John Robertson in the Chair]

If that were really the case, Mr Robertson, I would be the first person to jump to the aid of my Scottish National party colleagues to support them, but it is not. It is only a film; it is only make-believe. The reality is very different. Today we are strengthened by the Union. We all bring our talent, our culture and our history to the UK. Scotland, Wales and my own Northern Ireland contribute to the United Kingdom. We make it stronger by being part of it because we bring to it all the talents that we have. We have extensive relations with all regions. Personally, I am descended from the Stewarts of the lowlands of Scotland. My history is intertwined with the Scottish nation and family. That is something I am tremendously proud of and that I state regularly at the many occasions I speak at.

I believe that, economically, Scotland will be poorer after independence. It may have to increase taxes. Although the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) said that the decision had already been made in relation to sterling, I think that many of us feel that if it has been made, it has been made only recently. It will have to increase taxes, slash spending or increase borrowing after independence. What will happen to the Ministry of Defence bases in Scotland? Other hon. Members have mentioned that. What about nuclear power? Many decisions will have to be made.

The CBI director general stated that, post independence, Scotland would immediately have to face a large budget deficit, potentially bigger proportionally than the UK’s. The stability of Scotland’s economy is uncertain because of potential or possible independence. Banks have not universally or wholeheartedly expressed support. There is uncertainty. A question mark hangs over the issue. There are problems in the Scottish economy. Everyone in the United Kingdom has problems in relation to the economy, but Scotland has its problems. Independence will not lift it out of that; indeed, everything points to just the opposite.

The hon. Lady mentioned the territorial waters, and I would like to draw the House’s attention an issue in this regard. I represent Portavogie, where the Northern Ireland fishing fleets are very strong. They work together with the Scottish fleets and fish together. Will independence strengthen that or will there inevitably be battles over fishing rights and territorial waters? I want to see the strength within the Union continue, and equality of opportunity for Northern Ireland fishing fleets and Scottish fishing fleets, and for Welsh and English ones as well. I believe that North sea oil, while it is off the coast of Scotland, is my North sea oil in the same way as it is everyone else’s within the United Kingdom. That is the fact of the matter. Many would be of that opinion.

I do not believe that there is a clamour for independence. I make it my business to speak to every Scottish person I meet. I am a member of the Orange Institution. I make it my business to talk to the people who are in the Orange Order, and they tell me that they want to stay within the United Kingdom. Those outside the Orange Institution whom I speak to tell me that they want to stay within the United Kingdom, as well. As a Northern Ireland MP and a Democratic Unionist, I am committed to the Union for all of the UK—for Wales, for Northern Ireland, for England and for Scotland together, because together we are strong. If we divide, we are weak. I say to my Scottish National party colleagues, whom I am very fond of, that I cannot support them and will never support them when it comes to independence for Scotland.