Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 30th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Before I call the next speaker, may I say that I must bring in the Front Benchers at 5.40 pm?

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[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

That is very good. I would say that the shadow Minister will be missed in all parts of the House.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 3(2)

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We have a lot of things to do and a lot of Members want to speak. We also have a maiden speech that I want to get in, because if we do not do it tonight it will be lost.

[Simon Hoare]

I hear what the hon. Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) says, and I have much agreement with her, but at some point the patience of the population is going to run out about the “He said, she said, I will, he won’t” and so on. Somebody is going to have to knock heads together or make some progress, and I have every faith in my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Ministers, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), to drive that forward—with the goodwill of the main parties, knowing full well that they are now in the last-chance saloon.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We will now hear a maiden speech. I remind Members that no interventions are allowed.

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Wednesday 6th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

I must inform the Committee that I have selected the amendment and the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison).

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2

Introductory

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chairman]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clauses 3 to 5 stand part.

Amendment 1, in clause 6, page 5, line 26, at end add—

“(4) Section (Regulations) comes into force at the end of the period of 3 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.”

Clauses 6 and 7 stand part.

New clause 1—Regulations—

“(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations by statutory instrument amending any provision within sections 2 to 5 of this Act or within the Schedule to this Act.

(2) Regulations under this section may not be made unless a draft of the statutory instrument containing them has been laid before Parliament and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.

(3) The Secretary of State may lay draft regulations under this section before Parliament only if the draft regulations take account of any relevant recommendations made by any select committee of the House of Commons.”

The purpose of this new clause is to ensure prior consultation, and full and proper scrutiny, of proposed changes to the renewable heat incentive scheme in order to ensure that current participants are not disadvantaged by changes to the scheme.

That the Schedule be the schedule to the Bill.

[Karen Bradley]

We have had significant debate on this matter on Second Reading and I do not wish to prolong proceedings any further at this stage. I look forward to hearing from right hon. and hon. Members.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene again. I asked about the timescales that had been articulated by the hon. Gentleman and his DUP colleagues. I did not ask about Sinn Féin. To tweak the question slightly, can we give the people of Northern Ireland any confidence at all that the deadline mentioned in clause 1 of the Bill—26 March 2019—is realistic, or are you just going to talk your way through that deadline? Not you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

Don’t worry, I recognise that. I am not going to enter into Northern Ireland politics.

I have 11 Members down to speak. If some Members are not going to speak, can they let me know? At least then I know what I am working to.

[Gavin Robinson]

I intend to speak, Mr Deputy Speaker, but you knew that anyhow.

I say respectfully to the hon. Lady—an honourable Lady in name and nature—that that is a fair question, but if she follows the logic of what I am saying, she will see that it is not one for us. We want to see the restoration of an Executive. We have indicated no red lines. We made an offer of an olive branch last August, and it was rejected in 35 minutes; it was not considered. We have the clearest of clear indications from Sinn Féin that it does not envisage having Ministers appointed until April 2019. It is a disgrace, and it bears no resemblance to the needs, the frustrations, the angst, the wishes or the aspiration of every single person who lives in Northern Ireland.

I have mentioned that this Bill lacks certainty. That is a product of the way in which it is framed, and the Secretary of State has sought to issue guidance. It is right that the civil service has been empowered to advance decisions that are couched within the public interest. However, I have no certainty whether a planning decision for the power plant envisaged in my constituency will be advanced by civil servants. Why is it necessary? Because some of our older power stations are coming offline. There is a need for this planning approval to be given so that the power station can form part of a capacity auction this autumn for future years. If it is not advanced, we will be in a difficult situation in Northern Ireland. The same can be said for the north-south interconnector. It is a necessary part of infrastructure that we support—we think it is imperative for the future of our energy arrangements—yet there is no certainty that this Bill will advance a decision on the north-south interconnector.

My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South raised the transport hub in the south of the city. It is an important project that has regional significance in that it connects every part of Northern Ireland to our city. It has significant public resource allocated to it, and it will be necessary for the future development and aspirational growth of Belfast city and Northern Ireland. Is there any certainty that this Bill will advance that decision? Regrettably, there is none. Professor Bengoa—

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

We have eight speeches to come, and about an hour to play with, so if speeches could be around seven minutes, that would be very helpful.

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[Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP)]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

May I just say to the two gentleman that we need to bring on the Front Benchers just before quarter to?

Devolution and Democracy

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Thursday 24th May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the Chairman of the Committee, the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), on the leadership that he showed to all its members, enabling us to reach unanimous conclusions. There were times when we thought that that would not happen, but he managed to ensure that it happened in each case.

The backdrop was, of course, the stop-start, pause, start again extension of the talks process, to which pages 3 and 4 of the report refer. That, perhaps, indicates where we are at present. The Committee again took the opportunity to consider where we would go if the Northern Ireland Assembly did not function. The annex outlines—as did the hon. Gentleman at the end of his speech—the number of works still to be done and on hold.

Some of the Committee’s conclusions are very important. If the hybrid system for the Northern Ireland Assembly, which has operated in the past, does not work out, we shall look towards direct rule. What are the Chairman’s thoughts about how we can pull Sinn Féin out of its obstinate position? Sometimes, we need to move forward and park the issues on which we disagree.

I have another question, about Brexit. The Committee concluded that the Secretary of State and other Ministers should be more active. How does the hon. Gentleman think it can be ensured that Northern Ireland’s voice is clearly heard in the Brexit talks?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

The Chairman of the Committee can pick any one of those three. [Laughter.]

[Dr Murrison]

I thank the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who made an extremely important contribution to the report.

Clearly, without the co-operation of Sinn Féin, the recommendations in the report about the committee structure at Stormont, for example, simply will not work. That is inherent in the power-sharing structure, which forms such a big part of the Good Friday agreement. I urge Sinn Féin, the Democratic Unionist party and all the other parties in Northern Ireland to set aside the issues on which they cannot agree and get on with the issues on which they can agree.

I think that people in Northern Ireland are increasingly frustrated by the silly nonsense and the politicking. Matters that are important to them on a daily basis, such as healthcare, education and infrastructure, are not being dealt with because obstinate politicians are standing on their dignity in respect of certain matters. Although the politicians may hold those matters dear, the rest of the population clearly feel that they are not of a nature that justifies putting on hold the good governance of Northern Ireland.

As for Brexit, the hon. Gentleman knows—because he was involved—that we made a number of recommendations in relation to the representation of Northern Ireland, and I hope that Ministers will take them to heart. We need to ensure that Northern Ireland’s voice is properly heard. Given that the border is front and centre of the success or otherwise of the Brexit process, it is ironic that Northern Ireland’s voice is not being heard in Brussels at this time.

Northern Ireland Assembly Members (Pay) Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & 3rd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 21st March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

I am delighted to see how much time there is for me to go through this Bill’s provisions, but I think you will appreciate, Mr Deputy Speaker, that we are in danger of permitting my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) an inordinate amount of time for his Adjournment debate.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

May I just say that most Members of Parliament will now want to intervene on the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson)?

[Gavin Robinson]

That is exactly what I was going to say, because I fear there will be nobody in this Chamber to intervene at all, and therefore God bless “PARLY” tweets, because that will be empty—devoid of anything to say—this evening.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Perhaps the Deputy Speaker could give us some guidance on whether my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford will be allowed to intervene on himself during the Adjournment debate.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I am sure that, if there is nobody else here, he definitely will.

[Gavin Robinson]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Last night, you were concerned that we were descending into talk of bunkers; today we are perhaps going bonkers. But we will get there.

My parliamentary leader, my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Nigel Dodds), has outlined our support for the Bill. We think that this is a necessary step that the public of Northern Ireland expect us to take. Indeed, there has been a great deal of frustration over the length of time it has taken to get to this point. The only greater level of frustration is that we do not have an Assembly and that all 90 Members of our legislative Assembly in Northern Ireland will be affected as a consequence of the actions of a minority within it. We cannot overlook that fact when we address the contents of the Bill.

Other Members will mention hard-working MLAs. Mention has been made of one from North Down and of another from Belfast South. My colleagues Joanne Bunting and Robin Newton are also hard-working Members of the Legislative Assembly. I would go further, however, and say that all five representatives in my constituency of Belfast East are hard-working representatives for their constituents—not just the Democratic Unionists but the Alliance party representatives and an Ulster Unionist as well. The same is true of Green representatives and of Social Democratic and Labour party representatives in Northern Ireland. All those representatives would have a Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly established and working again tomorrow. They all stood because they believe in their constituents, in our country and in democracy, yet they are frustrated from doing their jobs. There might be a tad of frustration at the length of time it has taken to see action on MLAs’ pay, but MLAs and the public more generally want the MLAs to be active for their constituents and for their communities. Those MLAs want to get on with the job.

We are where we are, however, and there are a couple of questions about the Bill that I would like to raise with the Secretary of State. It has been clearly outlined that, should it be required, any determination on the basis of this legislation would be capable of being made again, even after the restoration and potential subsequent decline of an Executive.

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[Gavin Robinson]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have focused on the dark money coming from abroad because it is something on which the Government can act; my right hon. Friend raises the representation money in this House, which is a matter for this House. Again, the same conditions apply: one might get a friendly smile or an acknowledgement of sorts—one almost of comfort rather than encouragement—for raising this issue, but we will put it to the test and table a motion for discussion by the House.

My right hon. Friend referred to hundreds of thousands of pounds. I got my figures from my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), who in turn got them from the Leader of the House, and they have been published and are a matter of record. We are considering taking steps to reduce MLAs’ salaries because Sinn Féin have not allowed them to do their work, but it is important that we also look at the money that Sinn Féin MPs get for doing work in this House, which they do not attend. In 2007-08, they got £90,036. In 2008-09, they got £93,639. In 2009-10, they got £94,482. In 2010-11, they got £95,195. In 2011-12, they got £101,004. In 2012-13, they got £105,850. In 2013-14, they got £109,135. In 2014-15, they got £112,076. In 2015-16, they got £99,415, and in 2016-17, they got £97,556.

When we are considering cutting MLAs’ salaries because they are frustrated in doing their work by Sinn Féin Members, it is appropriate that we bear in mind that this House has agreed to a situation in which over the past 10 years Sinn Féin have been given just under £1 million for representation work that they do not do. That is a scandal. The Secretary of State will be well aware of the public criticism and concern about making sure that we do something about MLAs’ pay, but where is the enthusiasm and encouragement in this Chamber to deal decisively with the loopholes in respect of representation money and dark money from foreign countries?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I think the point has been very well made. It would not be for this Bill to change that; it would be done in other ways. It would helpful if we tried to deal with things that the Bill can deal with.

[Gavin Robinson]

I am grateful for that indication, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think I have fairly outlined what the Government can do and what is a matter for this House but not for this debate, so we shall leave it there.

We must consider how we get to the stage at which MLAs’ salaries no longer have to be reduced, and I should say for the Secretary of State’s benefit that a poll was published today that indicates the level of support among members of political parties for the positions that the parties have taken. Some 80% of our electorate do not believe that an Irish language Act should be delivered. They believe in our position and have strengthened their resolve in our position since September last year. That is the political climate in which the Minister, the Secretary of State and others will have to resolve things. They are going to need a steely determination and a level of resolve that has not been seen in the past decade from the Northern Ireland Office. In dealing with Northern Ireland’s complexities and a divided community, they are going to need the willingness, fortitude and wherewithal to resolve things in the interests of everyone in Northern Ireland—or if not everyone, at least everyone who wants to make it work. We stand ready to form an Executive tomorrow with no preconditions, no red lines and no partisan demands. What is more, almost every other party in Northern Ireland wishes for exactly the same thing.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I will try to resolve outside the Chamber some of the issues that I raised earlier on the Floor of the House. I am grateful to you, Sir, for giving me the time to expand on these issues in a way that is important for our consideration. It is important to press home not only the content of the Bill, but the issues that are pertinent to the current crisis, and, indeed, the resolve required to get to a better place in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland Budget (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & 3rd reading: House of Commons
Tuesday 20th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Lady Hermon]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman is coming to the line in his speech about how Rory McIlroy trained in the Holywood golf club, and put Holywood on the map as a constituent of mine. I am sure that tourists will come to see where he trained to become so successful.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

We are in danger of getting stuck in the bunker, and that is not where I want to be. Come on, Mr Paisley!

[Ian Paisley]

I will put the sand wedge away and move to another discipline, if you don’t mind, Mr Deputy Speaker.

In their wisdom, the last Executive, before they were put out of existence by the untimely resignation of the then Deputy First Minister, kindly appointed me to be the independent chairman of the Northern Ireland taskforce on motorsport. A number of significant motorsport events occur annually in Northern Ireland. Significantly, the North West 200 will require financial certainty from the Minister before June, and I would like to make sure that he is able to give that certainty and that he talks to the relevant Department—the Department for Communities—to indicate that proper finance will be put in place for the largest outdoor sporting event not only in Northern Ireland but in the entire island of Ireland. The race attracts over 100,000 people annually to the triangle of Portrush, Portstewart and Coleraine. It is very significant for sport in Northern Ireland and, indeed, for community relations. Motorsport is one of those things that attracts all people, of all classes and creeds. It is also something that Northern Ireland excels at, and we require certainty in terms of the provision of support to allow the race to go ahead. The Armagh road race in my constituency and the Ulster grand prix, which straddles the constituencies of South Antrim and Lagan Valley, also require certainty before the August timetable. I ask the Minister of State to look into that to ensure that the Department is properly told by him that funding must be put in place.

Looking forward to 2021 and the youth Commonwealth games, plans are already being put in place, and it is essential that the organisers are given certainty so that they can market Northern Ireland around the world as a destination and the location of those games. That will not happen in the six months before the games; it has to happen years in advance. I ask the Minister to put his mind to making sure that the Department is put on notice that he will be breathing down its neck to ensure that proper resources are put in place for these important showcase events for Northern Ireland.

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[Mr Vara]

The hon. Gentleman is a distinguished lawyer and will therefore appreciate that, given the context in which we are speaking, I would prefer, speaking as one lawyer to another, to read that paragraph in a wider context before making any further commitments to it, and he will appreciate that I am not in a position to make that comment now. I hope that he will be content with that; I think the smile on his face says that he knows he is trying his luck there. [Interruption.] Trying his luck in terms of pushing me further than perhaps I ought to go.

I reiterate the point made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that the Bill does not set out in law the allocations outlined in her written statement of 8 March. That will be done in the summer through a budget Bill—I hope, by a restored Executive— following on from the equivalent estimates process for UK Departments. This Bill confirms departmental allocations for 2017-18, reflecting final spending totals and revised allocations during the year. It also provides a pro forma authorisation for spending in the early months of the next financial year in anticipation of the budget Bill. To be clear, this is all money that is either locally raised or has been previously subject to a vote in Parliament. This is simply about formalising reallocations of funding during the year in Northern Ireland Departments to meet key pressures.

As for providing authorisation for spending in 2018-19 without formal departmental totals, I can reassure colleagues that this is exactly in line with usual processes. Last year, Northern Ireland permanent secretaries were forced to rely on emergency powers under section 59 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 in the absence of legal authority through an Act of this kind to spend money. I hope colleagues will agree that it will not be acceptable to invite the same uncertainty.

The issue of scrutiny and accountability was raised, and of course it is important to appreciate that that is there. The measures before us relate to the formalising of allocations for the previous financial year. As the former Secretary of State my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup put it, arrangements are in place to allow the reports of the Northern Ireland Audit Office and Northern Ireland departmental responses to be placed in the Libraries of both Houses when they concern audit or value for money issues. Last week, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State placed the first two departmental responses to NIAO reports in the Libraries to fulfil that commitment, and we stand ready to continue that process over the coming months. We shall reflect on whether any further scrutiny arrangements are merited to enable appropriate oversight of the use of public money.

We would very much have preferred these budgetary steps today to have been taken by a restored Executive and we waited for as long as possible for that to happen, but in the absence of an Executive, this Bill is required to give much-needed certainty for the Northern Ireland civil service as it safeguards public services for the people of Northern Ireland. That is why it is so important that the Bill be passed on Second Reading today.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day).

Bill considered in Committee (Order, this day).

[Sir Lindsay Hoyle in the Chair]

Clauses 1 to 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedules 1 to 4 agreed to.

Bill reported, without amendment.

Bill read the Third time and passed.

Delegated Legislation (Committees)

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 4 to 9 together.

Ordered,

Statute Law (Repeals) Measure

That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, entitled Statute Law (Repeals) Measure (HC 781), be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.

Pensions (Pre-Consolidation) Measure

That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, entitled Pensions (Pre-Consolidation) Measure (HC 782), be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.

Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction and Care of Churches Measure

That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, entitled Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction and Care of Churches Measure (HC 783), be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.

Mission and Pastoral Etc. (Amendment) Measure

That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, entitled Mission and Pastoral etc. (Amendment) Measure (HC 784), be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.

Legislative Reform Measure

That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, entitled Legislative Reform Measure (HC 785), be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.

Delegated Legislation (Electoral Commission)

That the Motion in the name of Andrea Leadsom relating to the Electoral Commissioner shall be treated as if it related to an instrument subject to the provisions of Standing Order No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees) in respect of which notice has been given that the instrument be approved.—(Wendy Morton.)

Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It might help the House to know that, because of the time available for the following debate and because of the great importance of the business being discussed by right hon. and hon. Friends from Northern Ireland, I do not intend to move the following motion, in the hope that the Backbench Business Committee will allow me to bring it back before the House when we have more time to discuss it.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

The Back-Bench motion will not be moved. That is noted.

Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Monday 22nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point and I would make two points in response. When the Select Committee looked at the issue—it was the first issue we looked at under my chairmanship back in 2010—it was not unanimous in its support for devolving responsibilities for corporation tax, but all the parties in general were in favour of it. Corporation tax was one of the few issues that every party in Northern Ireland agreed with the policy on, which was a real positive.

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, I am afraid. We could have done something about it then. The corporation tax rate for Northern Ireland could have been changed in 2010, or long before that, had it not been for our membership of the EU. I am not sure how far Mr Deputy Speaker will allow me to pursue that argument, but even if we wanted to reduce VAT on tourism in Northern Ireland, it would not be legal under EU rules. There are a number of ways of looking at membership of the EU. We spent two and a half hours on it earlier, and I do not suppose we will be allowed to spend too much longer on it now, but the point the hon. Gentleman makes is absolutely right.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. May I just reassure the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson): there is always Thursday for it?

[Mr Robertson]

Indeed there is, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I was saying that I accept that petitions of concern have been used to excess by both sides and had not been very helpful in coming to agreements on important issues. This is not contained in the legislation, but I know that the fresh start agreement did address that point and did request in a very strong way, as it were, that that facility should not be abused for the reasons we have given.

I do not wish to detain the House any longer, but this small but important Bill moves us in the right direction. I compliment and congratulate the Secretary of State on introducing it and—as I said earlier—on the enormous amount of hard work she has put in.

Northern Ireland (Welfare Reform) Bill (Allocation of Time)

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Monday 23rd November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I am afraid the hon. Lady will have to ask—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. This debate is on the allocation of time motion and we have Second Reading to come, so it might be helpful if we can try and stick to one point before we move on to the next.

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[Mark Durkan]

Mr Deputy Speaker, I am not sure how far you are treating some of these arguments as relating to the matters of substance as opposed to procedure, but the Secretary of State talked long on those points, as did others.

Let us be clear: a couple of different arguments have been used as to why everybody should just pass this through today as a matter of urgency. One has been that if we do not scramble this through fast, the institutions are in danger of collapse. Who was bringing the institutions to the brink of collapse? It was the very people who are being celebrated as heroes. The SDLP never threatened to bring the institutions down; we never once on any of these issues in the last number of years have used the word “crisis” or threatened the existence of the institutions. We have never said we would make this a make-or-break issue and the institutions would crash if we did not get our way. Sinn Féin and the DUP have variably and respectively, and sometimes collectively, said that at different times over the past couple of years, but it was never the position of the SDLP. We have adhered to our position on welfare reform without at any stage threatening the institutions. The position of Sinn Féin and the DUP came to threaten the institutions—because, after all, who else can threaten the institutions or bring them to the point of collapse but those two parties?

The second argument in relation to the exigency is the money argument. We heard it repeated again in the last intervention. Let us remember: the money argument arose because the Treasury chose to respond to the Assembly’s failure to pass the legislation by imposing what it at one stage called fines and also called penalties—indeed, DUP Finance Ministers used those words as well—but later we were told, “No, you can’t call them fines or penalties; they are savings forgone.” The fact is that it was a Treasury tactic: “Unless you pass this legislation—this karaoke Bill—through the Assembly on the same terms as we had it in Westminster, we will fine the block grant.”

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We will have these debates later. As the hon. Gentleman rightly said, he is moving an amendment to the allocation of time motion, but we are in danger of opening up the entire debate at this stage, which I do not want to do, as I want to save something for the next part.

[Mark Durkan]

Yes, but I am partly answering points that the Secretary of State spent some time on and others made interventions on.

We must remember this point about the fines and the pressure that puts on the budget. It was the Treasury that chose to create a budget stress in the hope it would induce the Assembly to pass the legislation. That budget stress became a budget crisis, and that budget crisis in turn contributed to the political crisis which the Secretary of State now tells us will be resolved by this Bill and this programme motion.

I will not stray into the areas where we are seeking to amend the Bill through the amendments tabled for later—I hope we can discuss those in Committee—but I want to make the point that Members of this House should not be under the illusion that they have to adopt a procedure with a timetable motion in relation to this Bill that they would not adopt for anything else because it is safe to do so as it is in the name of taking forward the peace process or the “Fresh Start” agreement.

There are parties that support some parts of the “Fresh Start” agreement but not other parts, and there are parties that support the welfare reform changes but do not endorse the whole of the “Fresh Start” agreement. Other Members in this House from parties outside Northern Ireland should not think they have to turn their own position on welfare reform and the current Welfare Reform and Work Bill currently going through Westminster inside out as a way of supporting progress and stability in Northern Ireland. Progress and stability in Northern Ireland can easily be supported in the context of this House following its due procedures and not accepting the almost unprecedented provision that means in Committee nothing other than clauses stand part or Government amendments can be voted on.

It is wrong that we are circumscribed by time, and it is wrong that we are being muzzled. This is all courtesy of Sinn Féin. It is to make sure we cannot table amendments that capture some of the amendments we tabled when the Assembly Bill came forward earlier this year. They were rejected by a petition of concern tabled by the DUP, and they were rejected by the votes of Sinn Féin as well. [Interruption.] Yes, and Sinn Féin and the DUP voted down SDLP amendments to the Assembly Bill that—[Interruption.] Yes, they voted down amendments that were in the same spirit as the amendments the Conservatives had voted down in this House to the original Bill on welfare reform. The DUP voted down amendments and petitions of concern against amendments that were in the spirit of amendments it had supported in the original legislation, so it has turned it inside out, and that is up to it to do, and Sinn Féin.

No parties in this House need abandon their own positions. We should be able to take amendments in this House and vote on those amendments. The Government are in a compact with Sinn Féin and the DUP to make sure the amendments cannot be voted on. They do not want the embarrassment of the Tories having to vote down these same amendments that Sinn Féin voted down in the Assembly earlier this year: the picture of the Sinn Féin -Tory-DUP axis would then be complete because we would be able to show who had voted down which amendments consistently. The case would be that the Tories voted them down originally, then Sinn Féin and the DUP voted them down, and then the Tories voted them down again now. It is to avoid that picture. That is why we have this kangaroo parliamentary procedure that is being used.

From Sinn Féin, a party that in the past supported kangaroo courts, we now have a kangaroo parliamentary procedure whereby things were rushed through in the Assembly the other day by the legislative consent motion; and now, not only are measures being put through on a timetable motion here, but the rights to table amendments with a view to their being voted on are being supressed by this programme motion. Members should resist that by supporting the amendment.

The amendment to the programme motion will, if passed, not cost any time or add any delay, so it does not relate to any of the concerns that the Secretary of State raised. The programme motion could be passed with the amendment and there would be absolutely no jeopardy to the timetable that the Secretary of State has tried to impress upon the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

I do not think there is any chance of reclaiming those overpayments. I wish that there were, but there is not. Unfortunately, we just have to pay. This issue needs to be dealt with as a matter of urgency today, and we support the Government’s proposal for the limited time.

The second reason for dealing with these matters quickly is that we have already had a debate on them in Northern Ireland. Indeed, I listened to the SDLP Assembly Member for West Belfast, Mr Attwood, talking in the Assembly for about 60 hours about his opposition to the measures and giving us his fanciful ideas on how we could avoid having to implement welfare reform in Northern Ireland—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. This debate is on the allocation of time motion. I know that the hon. Gentleman is building the basis of his argument, but I am a bit bothered that he is going to tempt other Members to talk about the same issues. I want to be able to get everybody debating the depth of the Bill.

[Sammy Wilson]

I hope that what I am saying is relevant, Mr Deputy Speaker.

The relevance is this: we do not need an extensive debate here in this Chamber because these matters have already been extensively debated, and decisions made on them, in Northern Ireland. The irony is that, only last week, the SDLP was arguing that there should not be a legislative consent motion because welfare reform should be decided in Northern Ireland. Now that the Bill has been shaped and agreed on by the parties in Northern Ireland, SDLP Members want Members of this House to be able to change it. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot argue that they do not want anyone else to get their sticky fingers on welfare reform, only to argue when the Bill arrives here that the House of Commons should make decisions that override the Northern Ireland Assembly.

For that reason, we support the Government’s allocation of time motion, which will allow these matters to be dealt with quickly. It will not allow amendments to be tabled that would change the Bill or the will of the Assembly. We want the will of the Assembly to be reflected. The Secretary of State knows what the will of the Assembly is, and the Bill reflects the views of the majority in the Assembly. We should therefore get this done quickly tonight.