Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

2nd reading
Thursday 27th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend Lady Rafferty and to hear the outstanding maiden speeches of my noble and very good friend Lady Berger, and indeed my noble friend Lady Gray. I also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Cash, and the noble Lord, Lord Young of Acton, on their maiden speeches.

It is an equal pleasure to speak in this Second Reading debate on the Government’s flagship Employment Rights Bill alongside colleagues with huge experience of the realities of day-to-day trade unionism, not the flights of fancy we have heard from some Members opposite. I am not sure what the collective noun for trade union general secretaries and assistant general secretaries should be. Perhaps we on our Benches need to invent one. I would say a “negotiation”, but we can quibble over that.

For my own part, I am someone with experience of both sides of the negotiating table. I worked as a lowly political officer at the Transport Salaried Staffs’ Association, more recently for a FTSE-listed transport operator, and for small businesses in between. When hearing some of the contributions from the Benches opposite, I recall an earlier job. I had the privilege of working for my noble friend Lady Harman when we were campaigning on the blight of low pay in 1990s Britain and the need for a national minimum wage. As my noble friends Lady Hazarika and Lord Watson of Invergowrie reminded us, shrouds were certainly waved back then by the Conservative Government and some of their business backers about the devastating impact it would have. Next week, the national minimum wage will rise again, benefiting 3 million workers. Our economy did not collapse—it will not now.

Making work fair—which the Bill does—is so important in delivering not just a better economy but a fairer, more just and cohesive society. I could dwell on many individual elements of the Bill. My niche favourite is the decision to scrap the pointless hoop-jumping of regular political fund ballots, having organised some myself, but instead I will consider the societal benefits of making work fairer for individuals and giving trade unions more rights to represent working people when they are being unfairly exploited.

Research conducted by Warwick University has found that job-related ill-health is costing UK businesses up to £41 billion a year, with 1.75 million workers suffering due to poor job quality. This study highlights how job insecurity, low pay and long hours contribute to poor health outcomes for employees and how, conversely, the academics say, job security, fair pay and a healthy work/life balance are linked to better well-being—hardly surprising.

The number of people in insecure work reached a record high of 4.1 million last year. Contrary to the assertion by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, those workers do not want to be in a state of insecurity. According to a TUC poll of zero-hours contract workers, some

“84% want regular hours of work—compared to just … 14% who don’t”,

and:

“Three-quarters … of those polled say they have experienced difficulty meeting living expenses due to not being offered enough hours”.


But extending workers’ rights is not just good for workers. Making work more equitable, secure and meaningful is good for communities, too. That is why, as my noble friend the Minister said, the wider population, not simply those workers impacted, support the measures in the Bill. Polling from Hope Not Hate has found that

“72% of UK voters support a ban on zero hours contracts, … 73% support … protection from unfair dismissal”

and 74% support ensuring that all workers have the right to sick pay.

Hope not Hate polling also found that over half the people felt pessimistic about the future. We know from history that, when an economy is on its knees and people feel insecure and hopeless about their own future as well as the future of the country, it weakens community cohesion, leaving space and divisions which the far right is only too willing and able to exploit.

Insecurity at work breeds insecurity in our communities and our country. These reforms will make people feel valued and restore a sense of hope to the most marginalised in our society—and that can only be a good thing. In short, we need change and the Bill is a vital part of that positive change for millions of workers, their families and their communities.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

Front Bench!

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I remind noble Lords that we are in Committee, not at Second Reading. We have heard a few speeches now that have strayed a little from the precise content of the amendments that we are speaking to. I urge noble Lords to concentrate on those amendments rather than making Second Reading speeches so that we can get on and make progress.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, I support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for reasons of transparency and clarity. As we have heard today, there is too much being added to the Bill. We have not had proper sight of the Government’s amendments until it is too late. How can any business plan for the future with this hotchpotch of a Bill changing by the day?

On top of that, I echo what my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe said and I would add a competitiveness and growth purpose here. We had it in the Financial Services and Markets Act. It helps to focus people’s minds on the law, on the overall purpose, on what we mean by the economy we run and on what its aims are.

I cannot agree with the noble Lords opposite who point out, with different conclusions, that our labour laws are streets behind those of European countries. Like the noble Lord, Lord Fox, I believe that the dynamism in Britain’s economy is due to it being a competitive market economy—one that has historically been open to trade and competes and, for that reason, can offer job security and good wages on a competitive basis. Part of that is a flexible labour market.

I am worried that this Bill—particularly given that the purpose is not economic growth and competitiveness—will stultify and freeze growth and, as a consequence, the labour market. The people who will suffer will be workers themselves, who will not get jobs or job security. For these reasons, I support the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

I close by remembering a German economist who worked under Chancellor Merkel in her global economics department at the time of the discussions around whether Britain would remain in the EU or leave it. This economist implored Britain to stay, because, without Britain, Europe would have a frozen economy, its labour market would lack dynamism and its competitiveness with the wider world—with the Asian and global markets—would stultify. It therefore seems very bizarre that we are trying to put the clock back on labour market legislation and stop the flexibility which should be at the heart of any dynamic market economy.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 8th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

Will the noble Lord give way very briefly at this juncture?

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

Order. It is clear that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, is not going to give way, and that is his prerogative.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I join the general praise and congratulations for my noble friend Lady Penn for her Amendment 64. There is not much more for me to say, other than that I echo the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I hope the Government are listening and will address the issue raised by my noble friend as we get to the next stage. If they do not, I would be more than happy to support my noble friend in her future endeavours.

Amendment 66 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Watson, was expertly spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady. I was going to echo very much the same points about the employment tribunals. An awful lot will be expected of them but, as we know, the simple fact is that the backlog is increasing, there is a shortage of funds and the waiting times are increasing—they are up to two years. It does not seem very plausible to expect that employment tribunals will be able to cope with the amount of work that is coming their way—I am afraid that will probably include work with regard to that amendment. I look forward to hearing the noble Baroness’s comments.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I am afraid the noble Lord will not; he will hear from me. I thank my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie in absentia for tabling Amendment 66 and my noble friend Lady O’Grady of Upper Holloway for so ably speaking to it. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, for tabling Amendment 64. This has been a broadly helpful debate, if somewhat spicier than expected, on flexible working.

This group and the next deal with flexible working. I agree with many of the comments that noble Lords across the Committee made in highlighting how important flexible working is in helping people to balance work with responsibilities in their personal lives, particularly caring responsibilities. As the noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, pointed out, flexibility can lead to happier, healthier and more productive employees. He is absolutely right on this point. It is good for employees, good for businesses and, in turn, good for the economy.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, outlined in some detail, along with the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady, a primary benefit of flexible working for families is that being able to work part-time, or having flexible start and finish times, can make it easier for parents to balance work and childcare needs. Similarly, for those caring for a vulnerable adult or a child with a disability, flexible working can help people to manage their caring responsibilities while remaining in work.

I echo some of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, about how we regard flexible working. To be clear, flexible working is not solely about working from home—something on which, post pandemic, we have become somewhat focused. Indeed, the ACAS guidance sets out eight examples of flexible working, and working from home is only one of those eight. It talks about compressed hours, staggered hours, remote working, job sharing and part-time hours as well as working from home.

According to the 2023 flexible jobs index, although nine in 10 want to work flexibly, only six in 10 employees are currently working flexibly and only three in 10 jobs are advertised with flexible working. Equally, the Government recognise that business needs vary and that not all flexible working arrangements are possible in all circumstances. That is why the Government are increasing access to flexible working by making it the default, except where not reasonably feasible. I concur with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Fox: this is not a soft policy but an important economic and human management tool, and we should regard it as such.

Amendment 66 in the name of my noble friend Lord Watson would require the Secretary of State to review and publish a statement on the adequacy of the maximum compensation that an employment tribunal may award to an employee with a successful claim related to flexible working. The maximum compensation award is currently set at eight weeks’ pay for an employee bringing a claim to a tribunal.

Section 80I of the Employment Rights Act 1996 already means that the Government may review the maximum number of weeks’ pay that can be awarded to an employee. If they consider it appropriate to do so, they can then use this power to change the specified number of weeks’ pay by which the maximum amount of an award of compensation is set. It is therefore not necessary to include anything further in the Bill. It is worth pointing out to noble Lords that the maximum has risen every year since its introduction, from £250 in 2002 to £719 now—so this is not something that is caught in aspic. Therefore, we would argue that a statutory review on the maximum compensation award within six months of Royal Assent could create uncertainty across the board and detract from some of the other important reforms that employees, employers, trade unions and the wider economic and business community will need to prepare for.

Before leaving this, it might be helpful to speak to the wider points from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, on tribunals. I cannot speak in any great detail on this issue, but I understand that the Ministry of Justice is undertaking a review of the employment tribunal system. I would hazard that it has not been sufficiently invested in in recent years, and the slowness of that system is certainly something that we should seek to address.

Before leaving Amendment 66, it is worth pointing out that there is a risk in creating uncertainty for both businesses and workers alike by creating the possibility of differing awards for different types of claims. As things stand, a number of types of claims—for example, relating to redundancy and unfair dismissal—face the same maximum award as those relating to flexible working. It might be undesirable to create confusion and undue complexity through in effect having a two-tier system.

I turn to the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, Amendment 64, which would extend the right to request flexible working to candidates with a job offer. In practice, the Government believe that this is already the case. The right to request flexible working, which is being strengthened in this Bill, is already a day one right. This means that employees can request flexible working from their first day in a role. We know that, in practice, many employers and employees will begin discussions about working arrangements before the candidate starts work.

As the noble Baroness said, before joining an organisation, informal and constructive discussions can offer a more effective way in which to identify working arrangements that work for employees and employers than a one-off formalised request and response might otherwise achieve. Mandating through legislation a right to request flexible working prior to appointment would not account for the fact that not all job offers come to fruition, for a number of reasons. However, candidates with a job offer have some limited rights. Discrimination and contractual rights are among those. The hypothetical example that the noble Baroness cited in her contribution would indeed be taken care of; discrimination based on protected characteristics is currently outlawed during the recruitment process. However, we would contend that it is not a status that we would want to overformalise at this point.

Additionally, under this proposal, employers would still have up to two months to consider and respond to a request. If the intention of this amendment is to significantly bring forward in time people’s ability to have a flexible working request accepted, it would not succeed in this respect. While the Government encourage employers to start conversations about flexible working with new starters at an early stage, it would not be appropriate to extend the legal framework for flexible working to all candidates under offer.

Lastly, to respond to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, on sex discrimination, I contend that this form of discrimination would actually carry a higher risk of penalty and payout than unreasonable refusal of flexible working, so it is probably a little out of place in the debate on this amendment.

To close, I therefore seek that noble Lords do not press their amendments in this group.

[Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right that the maximum cap applies to a number of areas, and many people believe that it is too low on those areas as well. Is he at least able to write to me or to the noble Lord, Lord Watson, and explain when the next review of the cap will take place, and the opportunities there will be for organisations such as Maternity Action and trade unions to make their case that the maximum cap should be higher?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend Lady O’Grady for that; I would of course be very happy to write to her and my noble friend Lord Watson on this. The point that we are making is that there is already a mechanism in place to upgrade. That does not mean that it is not something that organisations concerned about the limit of compensation can lobby on, but the amendment as tabled is superfluous; it would not add any powers that are not already in law or in the Bill already.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

Perhaps I could add something on that subject. I think that my noble friend suggested that there was one overall cap and that consistency was required, which is the point that my noble friend Lady O’Grady has developed. In fact, there is a range. Unfair dismissal is subject to a maximum per week for two years. Redundancy, which the Minister mentioned, is on a different basis; it is, essentially, one week’s pay for each year of employment up to a maximum of 20. Discrimination is dealt with on a different basis altogether, with no cap at all—it is the amount of compensation. So I do not think that consistency is really an answer. A general review would be very helpful, though.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for that. I certainly will not try to better his knowledge of employment law and, indeed, compensation for penalties in employment law. What I will say is that the basic principle that this amendment is calling for is not necessary. We have the powers to do what is behind the amendment already in the Bill. Indeed, it is up to individual organisations to engage if they think that that power needs to be used more frequently or to a greater extent.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their participation and support and my noble friend Lord Ashcombe in particular for his comments, which demonstrated very practically the benefits of flexible working to businesses and in running teams effectively. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

Just to emphasise further the potential benefits of flexible working for businesses and in terms of getting people re-engaged in the workplace, research conducted by the Behavioural Insights Team has shown that offering flexible working can attract up to 30% more applicants to job vacancies, and work by the ONS revealed that older workers working flexibly would be more likely to plan to retire later. Those are just two further specific examples.

I will speak just briefly to the other amendment in this group. I heard how well put the noble Baroness’s argument on behalf of her noble friend was, but I also hear the nervousness around increasing the number of issues that go to employment tribunals and then, across this Bill, the burden that will be placed on tribunals and the delays for both employers and employees caught in that system. The Minister said that perhaps it had, in recent years, been underinvested in, and that that was something the Government would seek to address. I would therefore be interested to know from Minister whether that is something that the Government will seek to address, whether he can say what additional investment will go into the employment tribunal system to prepare for the Bill and whether he will also commit to that investment going in ahead of the commencement of the Bill, so that we have the system in place to deal with some of the changes that we have heard about. He may wish to return to that point at a later point in the debate—he is not leaping to his feet right now.

I acknowledge that, although my amendment would change the legislative framework for flexible working, it is really about changing the culture to one where you can have the conversations as early and openly as possible. However, in how we have approached flexible working in legislation, we have underpinned those changes with legislative rights, so that people have rights to come back to.

I was slightly confused by the noble Lord’s response to my amendment. He said that, in practice, it is what happens anyway, but it would not be appropriate to underpin it with legislation. I was not totally clear why not, when we underpin the rest of the system of the right to request flexible working with legislation. He also said that if someone had their job offer withdrawn because they had made a request for flexible working, that would be covered by existing discrimination legislation. I do not believe that would be the case. It would be the case if their job offer had been withdrawn because they had a protected characteristic.

Actually, I think that one of the important things about the shift in flexible working that we have seen in recent years, and the 2014 move to extend that right to request to everyone, not just mums, dads or carers, is the changing of the culture around what flexible working means. It is really important for those people with caring responsibilities and other responsibilities in their lives, but it is really important for a whole host of other reasons, and we cannot second-guess people’s individual circumstances when they request flexible working. If someone has been made a job offer and they request flexible working, I do not think that current legislation will protect them if that job offer is withdrawn on that basis.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I would be very happy to write to the noble Baroness to clarify our understanding of the way that the discrimination order would operate in that scenario. Perhaps the way that I was explaining it was not clear enough, but we think that it is the case that a lot of what she is asking for in the amendment will be covered.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that offer; I really appreciate it. Just to touch on the points made by my noble friend Lord Jackson, I absolutely heard his support for flexible working. In fact, one of the points I just made is that I am really keen, as noble Lords will hear from me on later amendments on paternity leave, that we shift some of the assumptions around who might need and use flexible working and other kinds of flexibility in the workplace, so that we do not assume that it is just the women or the mums. Then they might actually face less discrimination, because an employer cannot look at someone and say, “I think this person’s going to make a particular request of me and I’m a bit nervous about that: how’s that going to work?”

The whole basis of this, and the whole success behind it, will be in having the support of employers. This is an area where culture has shifted. There is further to go among some employers, but they really see the benefits of this in their workplaces, so although I have tabled an amendment to provide a legislative underpinning to things, I think it is about changing culture and having a more open conversation. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Those are good points. Again, had the noble Lord seen an earlier episode of the soap opera of this Committee, he would have heard noble Lords from all around talk about firming up imprecision, which is why I talked about firming up the imprecision of that list of attributes rather than trying to produce a list of businesses and activities that somehow should come into this—an impossible job, frankly. Of course we should have a war on imprecision but, in the end, there are going to be some things that tribunals rule on that will be important, and we need to have the tribunals active and quick to do so.

To some extent, there is an element of creativity around the fungibility of some of these criteria—I think the noble Baroness, Lady Bousted, made that point. If we have some flexibility of interpretation, schools and other organisations that want to hang on to valued colleagues will find a way of using it in order to do that. If we start to rule out professions or rule in very hard and fast rules, we lose the opportunity to retain and attract certain groups of people. I understand the point made, that the more of that fungibility there is, the more so-called imprecision, and there is a balance between the two. That is why I still think that if we have ideas around new subsection (1ZA), that is the way forward on this rather than a list of jobs.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, for tabling this group of amendments related to flexible working.

Amendment 65 would exempt security services from the flexible working measures we are introducing through the Bill. These measures include ensuring that employers refuse a flexible working request only where it is reasonable to do so, on the basis of one of the business grounds set out in legislation and requiring that they explain the basis for that decision to their employee. I draw the noble Lord’s attention to the existing provision the Government have made to safeguard national security in relation to flexible working.

I will explain the measure taken in the Bill. Clause 9(7) brings the flexible working provisions into the scope of Section 202 of the Employment Rights Act 1996. Section 202 states that if in the opinion of a Minister the disclosure of information would be contrary to national security,

“nothing in any of the provisions to which this section applies requires any person to disclose the information, and … no person shall disclose the information in any proceedings in any court or tribunal relating to any of those provisions”.

By bringing the flexible working provisions under the scope of Section 202 of the 1996 Act, the Government have already taken the necessary and proportionate steps to protect national security. To respond directly to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, we have indeed engaged with, discussed and agreed this approach with the intelligence services.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 127, 128 and 139 from my noble friend Lady Penn. I too am a father, so I have an interest in that regard. These amendments will be very useful to the poorest families in the country because currently, only the very well paid get access to serious paternal leave.

As someone who comes from a community that has suffered horribly from the absence of fathers, I know that an early intervention that ties a father emotionally, financially and in any other way to that family unit is very important. The impact it has on educational outcomes and the finances of the family into the future are hugely important. My community is more than three times more likely to be impacted by poverty and all the downsides that poverty inflicts because of that lack of an initial paternal connection to the family.

This country is also facing a very low birth rate. Many young men in this country will tell you that they cannot afford to have children. Paternity leave will be a big part of addressing that. So, supporting our birth rate in this country—addressing that demographic time bomb—is very important.

The mental health of men in this country has been poor for a very long time. Part of turning that around is improving how fatherhood is perceived, so that young men in particular lean into that role and take pride in being a father. That also has a strong knock-on effect for the women involved: they receive support in the home, and it helps them return to their own careers, as we have heard from so many Members of your Lordships’ House. In the poorest communities in this country, many of the real breadwinners in the household are the women. If they can be supported back to work, that will have a profound impact on the mental well-being of the entire family.

I have been on a personal journey to make this a day one right. Because of the profound effect that the lack of a father in the household has on many aspects of society, this should be a day one right. Basically, some things are just worth paying for, and if this has a cost to the Government, so be it, because the upsides, socially and financially, are massive and beyond measurement.

Lastly, as is well documented and as many noble Lords have already said, the benefits to companies are profound. The challenge will be the smaller companies, where one or two people form a significant proportion of the workforce. That is where this conversation has to be sold, where the rhetoric is important, because if smaller companies adopt this approach, I believe it will happen. Larger companies already know the benefits this has for their workforce.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the debate on this amendment be adjourned.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, it has been agreed by the usual channels that we break at a time convenient for the Minister to make a Statement, thus allowing her to continue her other business outside the House.

Debate on Amendment 76 adjourned.

Moved by

[Lord Katz]

That the House do now resume.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the House be resumed.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, if I felt we were able to finish the group in the next five minutes, that would be fine. We have had a good debate, but this is an important topic, and it is important that the Committee is able to finish the group by hearing from any other Back-Benchers who might wish to contribute, as well as from the Front-Benchers and the Minister. All of the Committee might not be aware of it, but we have agreed through the usual channels that we will have the dinner break early to accommodate the repeat of the Statement. We are ultimately in the whole Committee’s hands. That is why we are breaking now. I know it is not usual to break midway through a group, but, as I say, it has been agreed through the usual channels that a dinner break at 6.30 pm would take priority. Perhaps we can resolve this.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I have had confirmation from my side that the usual channels have agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Stop groaning.

Normally, if today’s list says, “at a convenient time”, that means at the end of a group surely.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

As I said, I understand that this is unusual, but it is in no way unprecedented. We have broken in the middle of a group before. It is not ideal, but we are where we are. I think it is in the best interests of the Committee, especially as it has been agreed through the usual channels, to hear from both Front Benches and any other Back-Benchers on this group in good time, and to hear, in the meantime, a repeat of the Statement from the Minister, so that everybody gets the best of all worlds. I know this is not usual practice, and we will endeavour not to do it on future Committee days.

Motion agreed.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Fox, whose fox has not been shot.

This has been such an interesting, important, fascinating and deeply moving debate. We owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, for very positively introducing the fact that unpaid carers are the backbone of the care system, and for bringing us up to date with the reality of modern families. I think the Committee has spoken with one voice as we await the reply from the Government Front Bench. Have we not united in saying what we want the Government to do? It will be very interesting to hear the response. I hope they will use every moment between now and Report to be more specific about how they wish to respond to the issues that have been thrown up in this debate.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, I acknowledge the importance of kinship carers—the grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings and other close family members who step forward when children need a stable and loving environment. These individuals often take on significant responsibilities with little preparation or support, and they always do so with compassion and commitment. The contribution of kinship carers cannot be overstated. As the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle reminded us, they help prevent children entering the care system. They keep families together, and often do so at great personal and financial cost.

I have to acknowledge the contribution of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, who had some wonderful specific quotes to share with the Committee. There is an important strategic alliance here, particularly with the noble Baronesses, Lady Pitkeathley and Lady Lister of Burtersett, and it will be important to respond positively to the points that they have made.

I believe there is a genuine case for us to explore how we might better support those who take on these caring responsibilities in such difficult circumstances. While I appreciate that statutory leave may not be straightforward to implement, especially in the current economic climate, there is room, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, suggested, for a wider conversation about what more might be done. There should therefore be further consultation on this matter—with kinship carers themselves, with businesses and with the wider public—to understand the practicalities and to gather the necessary evidence. If we can find a solution that is proportionate, workable and rooted in the realities faced by both carers and employers then that will deserve our serious consideration. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, has said, there is room here for a modest move forward that would make a significant contribution.

We have to acknowledge the moving speech of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan of Canton, about bereavement leave. He spoke movingly of his Commons colleague Sarah Owen, MP for Luton North, who has blazed a trail of understanding in some areas that previously have not been properly understood, and we need to respond positively to that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, talked about serious childhood illness, pay and leave, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe. That that is another area where we need to explore how we can better tackle these challenges. In all these areas, I am confident that, through continued dialogue, we can work towards a sustainable strategy.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been another wide-ranging debate and I am grateful for the contributions of all noble Lords. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, my opposite number, just said, it has been a moving and profound debate that has demonstrated the complexities of the issues in front of us. There is unanimity across the Committee, I am sure, that we should do as much as we can to support carers. We have to ask ourselves how best we do that. We have picked up the baton from the last Government, who passed the Carer’s Leave Act, and we must move forward on that—but I am getting ahead of myself.

I join the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for putting the issue of kinship care in front of us, tabling Amendments 77, 78, 79, 134, 135 and 144. I also thank my noble friend Lord Brennan of Canton for tabling Amendment 81. I will do my best to get through these amendments at a decent pace.

I will begin with kinship care, speaking to Amendments 78 and 79, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. I join others in emphasising how greatly I and the Government appreciate kinship carers, who generously step into the breach and offer loving homes for children who cannot live with their parents. I am sure that the whole House shares these sentiments.

I reassure noble Lords that the Government are committed to ensuring that all employed parents and carers receive the support they need to manage both their work and their family lives. As we have heard, Amendment 78 aims to establish a new “kinship care leave” entitlement for employed kinship carers. Amendment 79 then seeks to creates a legal definition of “kinship care” to be used to establish eligibility for kinship care leave.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle, my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie and, indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, himself, rightly talked about the amazing work done by kinship carers across the country, supporting children in times of greatest stress and need, in their own households, and in so doing relieving local authorities and the wider care system.

The Government recognise that the current support for working families needs improvement. We have already begun work to improve the system for kinship carers. We are defining kinship care through other legislation that is currently before this House, and later this year we will begin trialling a kinship allowance in several local authorities.

We are pleased to say that, for the first time, through the Government’s Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, we will create a legal definition of kinship care for the purposes of specific duties within that Bill: the requirement to provide information about services to kinship families, and the duty to promote the educational achievement of children in kinship care. This will help to ensure that all local authorities interpret and apply the definition uniformly in relation to the new duty to publish information required, reducing ambiguity and potential disparities in information provided about support by different local authorities. This will, we hope, make life much easier at the sharp end of providing kinship care. It is a vital part of our commitment to keeping families together and supporting children to achieve and thrive.

I am also very pleased to say that the Government have recently announced a £40 million package to trial a new kinship allowance. This is the single biggest investment made by any Government in kinship care to date; indeed, it is the first of its kind. This financial commitment could transform the lives of vulnerable children who can no longer live at home. It would enable children to be raised within their extended families and communities. As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and others, it would minimise disruption to their formative years, allowing them to focus on schooling and building friendships—in short, having a normal life, as we want for all our children.

In addition, qualifying employed kinship carers may already benefit from various workplace rights aimed at supporting employees in managing work alongside caring responsibilities. These include a day one right to time off for dependants, which grants a reasonable amount of unpaid leave to deal with unexpected emergencies involving a child or dependant; the right to request flexible working; and unpaid parental leave, which, through this Bill, we are making a day one right.

Employees may not automatically have parental responsibility as a result of being a kinship carer, but they can acquire parental responsibility through different legal methods such as a special guardianship order. The Government have also committed to a review of the parental leave system to ensure that it best supports all working families. This review will be conducted separately from the Employment Rights Bill, and work is already under way on planning for its delivery.

Amendment 77 would provide foster carers with one week of leave every 12 months. As we have heard, foster carers play a life-changing role in the lives of children who need a safe and supportive environment. At times when young people are facing significant challenges, foster parents offer not only care and security but emotional support and consistency. I pay tribute to all those who step forward to provide the essential service of foster-caring—not least, as we have heard, the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, who has now changed his place but is very much with us in the Chair.

It is important to highlight that a range of workplace rights already exists to help employees who take on the responsibilities of fostering. From their first day on the job, employees have the legal right to take unpaid time off in emergency situations involving their dependents. This enables them to respond swiftly to sudden issues, such as arranging care for a foster child. If a foster carer is looking after a child with a long-term illness or disability, they are entitled to carer’s leave. This provides them with up to a week of unpaid leave in a 12-month period, to manage healthcare needs or attend appointments. Those fostering with the intention of adopting may be eligible for paid adoption leave, provided they meet the necessary criteria. In addition, all employees are entitled to submit a request for flexible working arrangements from day one of their employment. Given that these existing provisions go a long way to help foster carers to balance work and their foster care responsibilities, it does not seem right to add a new entitlement without a proper assessment of the need for it and the impact it might have.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

I appreciate what the Minister has said. If I heard him correctly, he said it would not be appropriate to introduce this leave without undertaking an assessment of how it would be applied. Will such an assessment be undertaken? I think it is important.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I am very happy to write to my noble friend with more details. We will cover some of the issues on carer’s leave in the round later in my speech, but I thank him for his intervention.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

With all due respect, this Bill is full of situations in which the consultation for its implementation is yet to be completed. Having adopted a principle in primary legislation, one more consultation would hardly stain the integrity of this Bill. If the Government wanted to, they could very well take on kinship care and fill in the details later—that is what they are doing with the rest of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

We may be talking at cross purposes. I am very happy to write with more details of the way that we plan to take foster care forward.

On paid carer’s leave, Amendment 135 would introduce a statutory entitlement for unpaid carers to receive their usual wage while taking carer’s leave. As drafted, the responsibility for covering these costs would lie with the employer. At Second Reading, and this evening, the noble Lords, Lord Palmer and Lord Young of Cookham, spoke powerfully on the vital role played by unpaid carers. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley for all the work she has done on fighting for carers, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, for speaking about her direct experience of caring. As my noble friend Lady Lister remarked, it is this sort of lived experience that brings so much to our House’s considerations of these matters.

I emphasise that the Government are committed to supporting those who combine work with care. However, there are not insignificant concerns with the amendment, which has not been changed since it was first brought forward in the other place. It does not give due consideration to the potentially significant costs it may place on businesses—particularly small businesses. It would create a situation of differential treatment between those taking leave to care for a family member or loved one under the Carer’s Leave Act and those taking other forms of leave, such as maternity and paternity leave. Those taking carer’s leave would be paid their normal wage, while other forms of leave are paid at a statutory rate, meaning that unpaid carers would be treated more favourably.

Although the Government do not support this amendment for these reasons, I assure noble Lords that His Majesty’s Government is fully committed to ensuring that unpaid carers can combine work with their caring responsibilities. We are reviewing the Carer’s Leave Act, which was introduced in April 2024 and gave employed carers a new right to time off work. We have heard tonight, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, expressed, the depths of feeling and concern that this is done properly. We have had the baton of the Carer’s Leave Act passed over; we want to make sure that we get this right, hence the review that we are undertaking.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

I quite take my noble friend’s point, but we were not saying how it should be paid; we were asking for an acknowledgement of the principle that it should be paid and leaving it up to the Government to then review the details of how it should be paid. It would be good to have at least an acknowledgement that that is where the Government are heading.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I fear I may disappoint my noble friend slightly, but it is important that, if we are going to review these things, we review them in the round, and that I do not pre-empt that review at the Dispatch Box tonight. We are considering whether further support is needed, including potential options for paid leave, while being mindful of potential impacts on businesses.

It would be worth spending a little more time discussing the review, as several noble Lords have now asked about it. The review is under way and officials in the Department for Business and Trade have already spoken to over 70 employers, third sector organisations and charities, such as Carers UK, in the course of undertaking the report. We have held events across the UK, in Wales, England and Scotland, and this engagement will continue as the review progresses, alongside both qualitative and quantitative research.

I will answer a couple of direct questions on the review. To answer the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, we will be considering international examples. To answer the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, we will be taking into account the immigration White Paper, which he so keenly observed has just been published. The review will assess the impact of unpaid carer’s leave, introduced last year, while considering whether further support is needed, including potential options for paid leave, while being mindful of any potential impacts on businesses.

To respond again to my noble friend Lady Lister, we do not want to pre-empt the outcome of the review. We must allow it to run its course, to ensure that we make a considered, evidence-based decision about what further support would most benefit unpaid carers.

As time is running on, I will speak to Amendment 134. I begin by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, for bringing attention to this issue. I pay particular tribute to the work done by the charity It’s Never You, which worked with the noble Baroness on this amendment. I join her in paying tribute to Ceri and Frances Menai-Davis, who have so bravely and tirelessly campaigned in memory of their son, Hugh. I am so pleased that they could join us in the Committee to understand how seriously the whole House takes the issue they have raised—it gives us the opportunity to thank them again for their hard work on the issue.

This amendment would extend provisions on neonatal care leave and pay to the parents of all children up to the age of 16 who are seriously ill for an extended period of time, entitling parents to paid time off work at the rate of statutory neonatal care pay. As I have said, this is a very important issue, and I wholly acknowledge how incredibly difficult childhood illness can be for parents. Equally, I recognise the vital role played by parents and other family members who provide care in such circumstances. The importance of being able to spend time by the bedside of a loved one who is unwell cannot be overstated.

To respond directly to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, the Government are reviewing the existing entitlement to carer’s leave, as I have already mentioned, and considering whether further changes may be helpful in supporting those who provide care to loved ones alongside work. For instance, employers are able to offer enhanced parental leave beyond the four-week limit in a year, and we encourage employers to consider doing this in unusual circumstances, such as a child becoming seriously ill. It is important that parents of disabled children are supported to return to or remain in work, if this is what they choose to do. Parents of disabled or seriously ill children may be protected from employment discrimination, by association with a disabled person, under the Equality Act 2010. These may well be more appropriate avenues through which to consider the issue.

While I am afraid that the Government cannot support the amendment at the present time, I understand that officials in the Department for Business and Trade have extended an invitation to the It’s Never You campaign to further discuss its proposals as part of the ongoing review of carer’s leave. I hope that noble Lords take that as a promissory note of how seriously we take the issue. I certainly hope that the Menai-Davises will be able to contribute their valuable perspective on this ongoing piece of work.

Amendment 144, on carers and equality action plans, would require employers to consider caring as a matter related to gender equality within any equality action plans, with reference to Clause 31 of the Bill. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, for drawing attention to the disproportionate impact that is felt by women when it comes to providing unpaid care, and particularly women in the workplace. This is undoubtedly a very important issue.

The provision in the Bill is designed to emphasise gender equality issues, but this amendment risks inadvertently strengthening existing assumptions about who provides care within our homes, families and society. The clause as it stands can already accommodate consideration of the needs of carers. We want to ensure that a variety of actions can be taken to support employees in a range of circumstances, so we fully expect action plans to consider those with caring responsibilities. Action plans are a vital step in supporting employers to make progress on closing the gender pay gap. Acknowledging the needs of those who provide unpaid care will no doubt play an important role in this, given that it is a significant contributing factor to the gap.

Finally, I will speak to Amendment 81, tabled by my noble friend Lord Brennan of Canton. I think the whole House was moved by his words on the issue. He calls himself a vessel, but he was certainly no empty vessel—if he will excuse my rather poor pun for this time of night. The amendment would extend the scope of bereavement leave to include pregnancy loss before 24 weeks. It would apply to those who experience miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, a molar pregnancy, a medical termination or an unsuccessful attempt at IVF due to embryo-transfer loss.

The loss of a baby at any stage is incredibly sad and difficult. As my noble friend Lord Brennan said, it is not a disease or an illness. The Government acknowledge that there is a clear gap in support for those who suffer a pregnancy loss before 24 weeks and that there is a need for time to grieve and recover, which, as many noble Lords from around the Committee recognised, was so helpfully highlighted by the work of the Women and Equalities Committee. It would be most remiss of me now not to join my noble friend Lord Brennan and indeed other noble Lords in paying tribute to the work of the committee, and in particular of my friend and comrade Sarah Owen, who has so movingly told of her own experience and has thought about the wider piece around this important and sensitive issue. We appreciate the way in which the committee has brought this issue forward.

We fully accept the principle of bereavement leave for pregnancy loss, as raised in the amendment, and we look forward to further discussions with my noble friend and other noble Lords as the Bill continues in this House. As my noble friend Lord Brennan said, this can help bring a more compassionate and humane face to the workplace as people deal with events that, frankly, at this current point in time, carry far too much stigma, secrecy and basic misconception of the facts.

[Lord Brennan of Canton (Lab)]

Can my noble friend the Minister confirm that the meaning of his words is that it is the intention of the Government to bring forward amendments that he is about to get to on Report in this regard?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

It will not come as a surprise to my noble friend that we cannot accept the amendment in front of us today. However, I am very happy to work with him to ensure that your Lordships’ House can consider this most important issue again on Report. So I respectfully ask him not to move this amendment and ask that the noble Lord withdraws his amendment.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

I feel humbled by this debate. It started off for me with the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, and the right reverend Prelate and it went on in the same vein, right across the House: the feeling that there was this Bill, the Employment Rights Bill, and that we recognise that within employment rights there are carers who have been ignored and need to be paid for what they are doing, for people and for the system that they underwrite.

The Government have not really replied in positive enough terms on this, but we will come back to this on Report with specific amendments. By that time, I hope that Government Ministers will go back to their colleagues in the other place and say that across the House, from all parts of this House, there was a feeling that unpaid carers need to be recognised in the Employment Rights Bill, and that kinship carers, who have not been recognised before, need to be recognised. We hope the Government have heard this and we look forward to a positive response by Report. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I would very much like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, for his important amendment in this group and for the valuable context he gave in his opening remarks, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for speaking so eloquently to it as well.

They are both right. Special constables play a vital role in our communities and, as they pointed out, they serve alongside other police officers, offering their time and their skills to protect the public and contribute to the safety and well-being of society at large. As the noble Lord, Lord Fox, has just pointed out, society benefits from their work.

It is often overlooked, though. For many, being a special constable is something they do alongside other regular employment. These individuals are already balancing their professional lives with the demands of policing and, as has been pointed out, that can be both challenging and rewarding.

I could bore on for hours about how valuable special constables were when I was policing in Hong Kong—but I will not. I welcome this amendment and believe it represents a small but significant way to better support those who give their time to serve our communities by ensuring that special constables can fulfil their duties without facing conflicts with their employment obligations. We would be sending a strong message of support for public service generally, as well, of course, as for special constables. So we are very minded to support this amendment.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate—some might say “esoteric”, but not me— and indeed, thankfully, a slightly shorter one. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, for tabling Amendment 82, co-signed by the noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Evans of Rainow. I am also grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Hogan-Howe and Lord Paddick, for meeting me, the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Leong, earlier today to discuss this amendment. It was really helpful to have the opportunity to, as we heard from both noble Lords this evening, hear the background context to the work of special constables, how they are regarded within the force and how they are integrated within the forces in which they serve.

Amendment 82 would give employees who are special constables a statutory right to time off from work to carry out their voluntary police duties. This Government recognise, as I think we all do across the House, and really value the important role that special constables play in our communities, and we are committed to ensuring that they are supported to navigate those responsibilities that they carry out as special constables alongside their working life.

Special constables, along with the full range of police volunteers, bring valuable and diverse skills, which complement the roles that full-time officers and staff play in delivering the best possible service to the public in protecting our streets and making sure that our communities are safe.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 19th May 2025 Lords Chamber

That backlog means that genuine cases of harassment and genuine grievances are not being heard. We have one case at the Free Speech Union in which someone is bringing a case for unfair dismissal to the employment tribunal. That case, which we heard earlier this week, has been scheduled for July 2027. That is how long you have to wait now for a case to be heard in the employment tribunal. Yet it is absolutely clear that in all sorts of ways, but particularly with this clause, the Government will massively increase the number of cases that are brought before the employment tribunal as a result of this Bill. Given the extraordinary extent to which the ET is overwhelmed, given the waiting list—someone said that it was one year, but it is longer; it is almost two years—

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

My Lords, I respectfully point out that we have now had more than two hours on this group of amendments and that we have just come up to 12 minutes for the response to this long debate. A fair person would say that this is excessive free speech. I respectfully ask the noble Lord to bring his remarks to a conclusion, so that we can make some progress.

[Lord Young of Acton (Con)]

I will bring my remarks to a conclusion. Sorry, I thought I had 15 minutes. I misunderstood.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes for tabling this amendment and the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, with his perspective from the creative industries, for introducing it so well.

This amendment highlights an important issue: ensuring that work experience opportunities do not become a means to circumvent minimum wage regulations, thereby protecting young people and others seeking to gain valuable experience in the labour market. At the same time, as the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, noted, it is important to recognise that many charities, non-profit organisations and others rely to some extent on unpaid work experience placements, partly to deliver their valuable services but also to provide opportunities for individuals who might otherwise struggle to enter the workforce. We must acknowledge that many young people who leave education not knowing what they want to do, as the noble Viscount noted, find them a useful way of testing various sectors. The practical impact of this amendment on such organisations merits careful consideration to ensure that their ability to provide meaningful work experience is not unduly restricted, while maintaining fair treatment for those undertaking such experience.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who contributed to this short but focused and interesting debate. I too regret that the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, was unable to attend; with my Whip’s hat on, I note that perhaps if we had made better progress on earlier days of Committee then we would have heard from him directly. I pay tribute to him for tabling Amendment 129, which seeks to prohibit unpaid work experience for a period exceeding four weeks. I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, for stepping into the breach and making a more than worthy understudy in moving the amendment. I thank my noble friend Lady O’Grady of Upper Holloway and the noble Lords, Lord Goddard and Lord Sharpe of Epsom, for contributing to this debate. This is an important issue, and the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and others are right to raise it. I pay tribute on the record to his previous work campaigning on this issue, not least through his Private Member’s Bill in the 2017-19 Session.

This Government made a commitment to deliver the biggest upgrade to workers’ rights in a generation. This includes tackling unfair working practices. As we heard from the noble Viscount, there are examples not simply in the creative sector—although that area of our economy is rife with them—but beyond it. This Government absolutely stand by the national minimum wage, and on 1 April delivered an increase of 16.3% to the 18 to 20 national minimum wage rate to make it £10 an hour—a record amount in both cash and percentage terms, making progress on closing the gap with the national living wage. This is an increase of £2,500 to the gross annual earnings of a full-time worker on the NMW. It was the first step in the Government’s plans to remove the discriminatory age bands and ensure that all adults benefit from a genuine living wage, making a real difference to young people.

I think it is worth saying in passing that we welcome, on this side of the House at least, the Conservative Party’s conversion in recent years to supporting the national minimum wage. However, as a member of the party that introduced it in the first place, in the teeth of some quite vehement opposition at the time, I assure noble Lords that this Labour Government are absolutely committed to supporting it and making sure that it applies in all cases where it should.

Work experience or internships can offer individuals, especially younger people, invaluable opportunities and experience. We do not want to close the door on these opportunities, but we do want to ensure that they are open and fair. Most importantly, where workers are due payment, they should be paid the wages they are entitled to, and I have to say that the current legislation already protects them.

As my noble friend Lady O’Grady of Upper Holloway—to whose years of campaigning in this area, through the TUC, I pay tribute—said, there is an aspect of this amendment, very well-intentioned though it is, that would create unintended consequences and raises the spectre of, as she put it, rolling internships of four weeks, on and on.

As we know, according to the Department for Education’s 2022 employer skills survey, around 5% of employers had offered internships, either paid or unpaid, in the preceding 12 months, and there were around 200,000 people on internships. The vast majority of these—88%—were of two weeks or more in duration, and nearly 30% were over six months. It is only right that these people should be paid the national minimum to which they are entitled.

As we have heard, the national minimum wage legislation provides for a number of exemptions to recognise the importance of gaining work experience. It is important to recognise that these examples have a strong and firm place in the economy, including students on placements for up to one year, as required as part of a UK course of either further or higher education, pupils below the compulsory school age, participants in certain government programmes to provide training, work experience or temporary work, and—the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, made this point—voluntary workers employed by a charity or voluntary organisation, providing they receive no monetary payments, except for expenses.

The Government are committed to banning unpaid internships, unless they are part of an educational or training course. Because of the way legislation is drafted, they are already largely banned. For national minimum wage purposes, the crucial fact is whether someone is considered a worker due to the nature of the work they do. Employers cannot simply call someone an intern or say they are doing work experience and not pay them. What matters is whether the arrangement they have makes them a worker for minimum wage purposes. However, one valid exception is work shadowing, which is where individuals are observing others perform tasks and are not performing any work themselves.

There is a risk that the broad-brush nature of this amendment could create loopholes, leaving interns or individuals on work experience open to abuse. Where an intern is carrying out tasks, they are a worker and therefore entitled to the national minimum wage. Accepting the amendment could mean that these individuals could be recruited for short-term roles and lose their entitlement to the minimum wage, even if they are performing work. The Government will be consulting on this issue soon. We want to engage with businesses and individuals who carry out internships or work experience. This is how we introduce change to ensure that individuals are protected and treated fairly.

We have heard from both the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and my noble friend Lady O’Grady that enforcement is the issue here. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, asked about the number of prosecutions. I am afraid I do not have that number to hand, but I will certainly undertake to write to the noble Viscount. Enforcement of any law is important, and I am sure that part of the consultation will cover issues of enforcement. Creating more laws but not solving the problem of enforcement would not actually get to the heart of the issue, which is making sure that, when people work, they are paid the national minimum to which they are entitled.

In that vein, I hope that we can deal with the issues the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, wishes to address most effectively outside the Bill. I therefore ask the noble Viscount, on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, to withdraw Amendment 129.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

My Lords, this has been a short but informative debate and I am grateful to noble Lords who contributed. I listened very hard to the comments from both the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady, on making sure that we enforce the national minimum wage. The national minimum wage has been in force since, I think, 1998. That is a long time for it not to be enforced, and it includes a time when there was a Labour Government. I very much hope that this will be an extra nudge to make sure that it is enforced and HMRC is given very direct instructions to make sure it happens. As the noble Baroness pointed out, the lack of enforcement is very deleterious to getting working class people into work.

On the noble Baroness’s and the Minister’s concern about it creating a revolving door, surely it cannot be beyond the wit of us to work out that, after you have done your four weeks of work experience, you are not allowed to go back or to stay—that is why we have a four-week block. It is useful to carve out a particular role for people who are there just for educational or work experience reasons, which is quite separate from being an intern.

I hope very much that the Minister and the Government will take on board this amendment and these thoughts as they contribute to the effort to stamp out unfair work practices. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all who have contributed to this short debate, in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, for stepping in very ably. There seems to be a pattern of noble Lords needing to step in during the groups I respond to, but I very much appreciate her moving the amendment on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle.

We are somewhat repeating the first debate we had today on Amendment 129. Amendment 141 seeks to ensure that persons are paid for the trial shifts they perform in view of potentially being offered a temporary or permanent position. It basically boils down to the same thing: how do we make sure that people are not exploited when they are in a position where they need to be flexible to try to gain work? It is very much the Government’s objective to ensure we can get more people working. However, it is also our objective to ensure we make work fair and make fair work pay.

That is obviously the intention underlying Amendment 141. In that light, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for raising this issue and for using the case study of Ellen to outline how vulnerable people in vulnerable situations can be exploited by unscrupulous employers. I assure the noble Baroness that that is absolutely not the intention of the Bill nor, indeed, our attitude towards the amendment. However, I will go into detail as to why we are taking our position on this amendment.

As I have said, we are committed to making work pay, and we have been delivering on this promise through the actions we have taken since the Government came into office last year. At the risk of repeating myself, I note that we have delivered an increase in the national minimum wage of 6.7% to £12.21 per hour for eligible workers aged 21 or over. We have also, as I said, delivered a huge uplift for the lower national minimum wage rate for 18 to 20 year-olds, which has increased by 16.3% to £10 an hour. That is a record amount in both cash and percentage terms, and it closes the gap with the national living wage, because, as I have said, a fair day’s work deserves a fair day’s pay.

However, hand in hand with fair pay is the flexibility for workers and employers to decide whether a job is right for the candidate and, indeed, whether the candidate is right for a job. Government guidance sets out helpful and practical information on how the national minimum wage applies in the context of unpaid work trials. The guidance is clear that employers can ask individuals to carry out tasks or trial shifts without payment only if it is a genuine part of the recruitment process.

Short, genuine work trials—such as the DWP scheme that the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, referred to—whether paid or unpaid, give employers and individuals an opportunity to test whether the role or the candidate is right for them. They empower individuals to seek out and test whether the role is suited to them and their needs. They allow employers to test whether a candidate can do the job and reduce the risk of taking on someone who might not have the right skills. As the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, rightly said, it is about finding the right balance.

Unpaid work trials can also provide a stepping stone for individuals who have been out of work for a long period of time but might want to get back into the workplace, as the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, said. There are also government schemes where individuals in receipt of benefits can participate in an unpaid work trial and continue to receive their benefits. The flexibility of genuine—I stress “genuine”—work trials can benefit workers up and down the country, and the Government feel that an outright ban would see these opportunities for individuals diminish. However, I repeat a point I made earlier because it is worth emphasising: employers cannot rely on unpaid trial shifts for free labour. If someone is carrying out work that goes beyond a short demonstration of their suitability for the role, they are most likely to be entitled to the national minimum wage.

We are committed to protecting workers and will monitor this issue closely. If changes are needed, those issues should be dealt with outside the Bill, so that the national minimum wage legislation can remain clear on how unpaid work trials can be used and ensure workers are protected.

As noble Lords will be aware, HM Revenue & Customs is responsible for enforcing the minimum wage legislation and ensuring that employers meet their legal obligations. Any individual concerned that they have worked on a trial shift or period that does not appear to be part of a genuine recruitment process can and should complain to HMRC, or they can contact the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service for advice.

In the light of the safeguards that already exist in legislation, and despite the fact that we very much agree with the sentiment behind the amendment, we ask the noble Baroness to withdraw Amendment 141.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for his answer. If this amendment is so similar to Amendment 129—I was not in the Chamber during that debate, I am afraid—I wonder why they were not grouped together. That might be something to think about.

The Minister talked about genuine work trials. I argue that “genuine” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there: how on earth do you judge whether something is genuine if you are not monitoring it extremely closely? He also mentioned a “short demonstration”. How long is that? Are there criteria for them? Are they only two hours long, for example? In Ellen’s case, she worked for five hours—that is a fair amount of continuous time to work.

In speaking to this amendment, I am influenced by the fact that, in the Green Party, we are not allowed to take any unpaid work at all. We have no unpaid interns. If we have an intern, we pay them, and we pay them properly. This influences my attitude towards anyone working for nothing if they do not intend to do so voluntarily.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, said that there might be fewer opportunities, but workers are still needed and companies still have to find those workers. If companies cannot afford to pay the national minimum wage to somebody on a work trial, they are not solvent businesses, so perhaps they ought to go out of business. I have no sympathy for employers who do not pay for work.

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, gave me conditional support, but I am not really sure; perhaps he will on Report.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, that an amendment can be written to cover such schemes as the government scheme she mentioned. It does not necessarily exclude paying somebody for genuinely working for five hours continuously.

On balance, this is a good amendment, and I hope that my noble friend will bring it back on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)]

I hardly know where to start.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

Give it a go.

[Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)]

Certainly, I believe that everybody at work—whatever background they come from and whatever their class, sex, gender or sexuality—should have the right to be treated fairly. I believe that our legal system, our Equality Act, precisely provides that protection for people, but that we can build on it through equality action plans and so on. But I have to say that maybe some noble Lords opposite also need to consider people’s real experience.

I was elected as the first ever woman general secretary of the TUC. Clearly, we were not a movement that rushed things, because it took an awful long time to get to that point. I have enough self-awareness to know that it was not because there were not talented women, black or white, who could have been elected and who had the talent, skills and ability. There was something else going on, and I hope that there would be enough honesty in this House to recognise that black people and women face real barriers that will not be overcome unless we take positive action.

The other point I would just like to reflect on is that, whenever I spoke about seeing more women playing active roles in not just the trade union movement but in public life, including, by the way, lending my support to women who were arguing that we needed more women in the boardroom—I supported that principle—I was always fascinated that, whenever I raised those issues, people, largely men I have to say, would start talking about merit. Well, I have to say, when I look at the upper echelons, I do not always see in those male-dominated and white-dominated ranks people who got there on the basis of merit. I have never seen an advert for a position on a board. I have never known any board member to go through an open recruitment process to get that position. It has very often been a case of a tap on the shoulder.

If we look at how many judges and newspaper editors we have, and specifically at race, sex and gender, yes, the picture has progressed, but we still have a very long way to go. Therefore, I think this amendment is a little disingenuous in trying to suggest that people who have been held back for years because of their class background, race or gender, if given a helping hand and a bit of encouragement to go for it, will somehow cause a meltdown of society.

Achieving what my noble friend said is, quite rightly, part of my history and our history. I hope that it is part of our progress as a country that we value equality. We know that ultimately it is good for all of us, and long may we keep struggling to achieve that goal.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 5th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I start by saying how pleased we are to see my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond in his place. I had the privilege of moving his previous amendments in his absence, but we are delighted to see him back with us and I thank him for proposing this important amendment.

The way my noble friend did it was very welcome because, at the heart of his speech, was a recognition that the labour market—especially the supply of temporary and agency workers—has to be fair and transparent. He used those particular words and stressed their importance. I agree with him that it is essential that all companies involved in these arrangements operate under the same clear set of rules. Too often, we see instances where umbrella companies or certain intermediaries do not meet the standards expected of traditional employment agencies, whether on pay, workers’ rights or transparency. This inconsistency undermines the integrity of the labour market and can put vulnerable workers at risk. Licensing could, in theory, help address this by ensuring that any business participating in employment arrangements meets minimum standards and is subject to proper oversight.

However, as my noble friend Lady Coffey stressed, the amendment raises some other important questions. Clause 34 broadens the definition of “employment business” to encompass a range of activities connected to supplying workers who are employed by one party but work under the control of another. This means that the regulatory net will be set much wider than before, potentially to cover businesses beyond traditional recruitment agencies.

Moreover, it is worth considering whether the same objectives could be achieved through improved enforcement of existing regulations rather than by introducing a new licensing framework. In this Chamber, we have to weigh carefully the costs and benefits, particularly to smaller businesses that may struggle with additional compliance burdens. We must also consider the impact on businesses and the wider economy. Many employment businesses operate with tight margins; for them, licensing means added costs, added paperwork and longer lead times to launch new services or respond to labour demand.

This is not an argument against regulation per se; it is simply a recognition that badly designed or poorly phased licensing can create barriers to entry, reduce competition and even push some providers underground, where abuses are harder to detect. In sectors that are already experiencing labour shortages, such as social care, hospitality and logistics, the cumulative impact could be significant.

As my noble friend Lady Coffey pointed out, there is also the risk of regulatory duplication or conflict. Some sectors already have licensing or registration schemes; others are subject to sector-specific standards set by Ofsted, the Care Quality Commission or the Financial Conduct Authority. Without co-ordination, we risk creating overlapping regimes, with businesses subject to multiple audits, rival codes of conduct and inconsistent enforcement. Workers too may be confused about their rights and the mechanisms available for redress.

I also note that the amendment does not contain any provisions for parliamentary oversight or consultation. The power it seeks to create is broad and, while it is subject to the discretion of the Secretary of State, it is not constrained by any statutory duty to consult stakeholders. In a sector as economically important and socially sensitive as this, there must be consultation. Against that background, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, for his amendment concerning the licensing of employment businesses. I join the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in saying how nice it is to see him in his place this afternoon. I share the privilege that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, noted as I responded to the amendments that were tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and these were on important issues that he was right to raise. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, these are around fairness, transparency, equity and the problems that some less than scrupulous umbrella organisations and employment agencies currently raise in the market. He is not raising unimportant issues.

As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has already noted, through Clause 34, the Government have sought to amend the definition of “employment business” in the Employment Agencies Act 1973, so that it includes the concept of employment arrangements. This expanded definition will capture so-called umbrella companies and place them in the scope of regulation. As your Lordships know, employment businesses are subject to regulation through the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003, which were enforced by the Employment Agency Standards Inspectorate and subsequently will be enforced by the new fair work agency that Part 5 of the Bill creates.

The Government acknowledge that the current regulations are not appropriate for application to umbrella companies so, following consultation, we will set out a new regulatory framework that will apply to umbrella companies. In our view, these regulations are the most proportionate way of reducing non-compliance in the umbrella company market, without introducing a new regime that would add complexity for business. The creation of a licensing authority at this time would therefore not be appropriate. I am happy to say that on this rare occasion, we share the concerns of both the Opposition Front Bench and the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, from whom we heard earlier on this amendment.

The regulation-making powers in the Bill have been carefully considered and included only where the Government consider it justified and necessary. We are not convinced that the amendment will provide additional benefits for businesses or workers significant enough to expand this power, as it proposes.

The Government want to take care to get the regulations right. We have heard throughout our wonderful time spent discussing the Bill in Committee so far that there is a balance to be sought between the burdens that we create through new legislation and regulation on businesses, including small businesses, and protecting the rights of workers. It is a balance we get right, and we want to make sure that we get regulations right in relation to the new definition of employment businesses in this case. Our focus will be on that, alongside the establishment of the fair work agency.

Taking all these factors into consideration, I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble lords who contributed to this short debate. I listened very carefully to the Minister, and I am extremely grateful to my noble friend Lord Hunt for his comments. His drafting pen is always both sharper and smarter than mine, and we all benefit from that. I thank him for moving my amendment on Monday in my absence, and I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, for doing so on a previous group. I accept the comments at this stage and am very keen to see what might be possible between now and Report. But, for now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, we all owe a great debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, and my noble friend Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for introducing a fascinating debate. My own relationship with heritage railways goes back some 45 years, to when I participated in all those wonderful railways in north Wales. I took my daughter Daisy to the top of Snowdon in one of these wonderful train rides. Sadly, the Western Mail had a picture of Daisy and me driving the locomotive, illegally, with the headline, “Daisy drives Dad around the bend”. I shall never forget that.

Therefore, like my noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lord Mendoza, the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, I approach this debate with some degree of positive expectation, because the noble Lord, Lord Katz, is going to reply. If ever there was anyone who would understand the need for this amendment, it is the noble Lord, Lord Katz. Whether his brief will allow him to show that level of understanding, we will have to wait and see.

This amendment brings welcome clarity and common sense to an area where outdated legislative definitions risk interfering with well-established and valued community practice. Heritage railways and tramways are not industrial undertakings in the conventional sense. They are, overwhelmingly, charitable or volunteer-led organisations dedicated to preserving history, offering educational experiences and engaging communities, often in rural or heritage-rich areas. This amendment recognises the important distinction between exploitive industrial labour and safe, structured, voluntary participation. Many young people who volunteer on heritage railways gain practical skills, develop a sense of responsibility and form connections across generations. It is, for many, their first taste of civic engagement and teamwork and is often a path into engineering, public service or the arts.

By inserting this narrow and well-defined exemption into the 1920 Act, this clause would ensure that young volunteers can continue to participate safely and legally in activities that benefit not only themselves but the broader public. Importantly, this does not in any way dilute protections against child labour or weaken employment law. It simply makes sure that our legal framework does not unintentionally penalise or prohibit what is clearly a public good.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, my reputation seems to precede me on this amendment. I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester for tabling Amendment 201 and have enjoyed a slight diversion in subject matter on the Employment Rights Bill. It is truly a pleasure to be able to continue the discussions that I have had with my noble friend Lord Faulkner about the railways for many years, both inside and outside this House. My noble friend is a true champion of heritage railways across the whole piece, not simply on this issue. I pay tribute to his role as president of the Heritage Railway Association.

It has been fantastic to hear from a number of noble Lords, including the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the noble Lords, Lord Mendoza and Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, all of whom extolled the virtues of heritage railways in providing a positive way of involving young people in transport, industry and civic engagement—as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was just saying—as well as contributing to the tourist sector and the Government’s mission for growth. The noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, spoke very strongly about that, and, as he pointed out, it is the 200th anniversary of the railway this year. We are doing a lot to commemorate that, and heritage railways will have their own role in that. I pay special thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for being the first person to out me as a rail nerd in this debate, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, also had that pleasure.

The noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, took us on a little tour d’horizon of the Private Member’s Bill debate we had in this House on this topic a few years ago, and mentioned a number of heritage railways. I can speak of the pleasure I had as a young child travelling on the Ruislip Lido railway, which was small in scale but mighty in reputation for those of us in north-west London. The noble Lord is right to point to the virtues of heritage railways, both as an economic activity and in individual engagement.

As a Government, we recognise and support the valuable opportunities young people have through volunteering to do a wide range of different work activities, including on heritage railways. Obviously, it is important that these things are carried out in a safe way, with employers, organisers and volunteers supervising activities to make sure that risks are properly controlled. To give some background, I will say that noble Lords will be aware that the Health and Safety Executive is responsible for regulating health and safety at work, but, in the case of the heritage railways, the Office of Rail and Road is the enforcing authority. Both these regulators have considered carefully what powers they have and how these would be applied in the case of young people aged between 14 and 16 volunteering on a heritage railway.

The Employment of Women, Young Persons, and Children Act 1920, which my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester referred to, is a long-standing piece of legislation intended to prohibit the employment of children carrying out high-risk work, such as construction in industrial settings. To be honest, amending or repealing it would not be a straightforward matter.

The law protecting children in the UK is also a complex area, and this amendment touches on not only health and safety protections but other legislation and local authority by-laws. These are all devolved matters in Northern Ireland, and this amendment would impose changes there too. The 1920 Act is old legislation; amending it should be considered only after a thorough review of the impact on other areas of law, as there may be unintended consequences. It is worth pointing out that the primary legislation governing child employment, including light work, is the Children and Young Persons Act 1933. Amending or repealing the 1920 Act would still leave the 1933 Act in place, which—together with any by-laws made under it by local authorities—limits children to undertaking only light work. So repealing the 1920 Act could have unintended consequences across a number of sectors, and a full impact assessment would be required.

As we have heard, modern health and safety legislation does not prevent children and young people volunteering on heritage railways. I was pleased that my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester referred to the Heritage Railway Association survey, which demonstrated that there are around 800 under 16 year-olds volunteering on heritage railways across the country. There may be activities that are unsuitable for young volunteers to carry out—for example, safety-critical tasks such as train diving—but I am pleased to say that both regulators are very willing to work with the Heritage Railway Association, as we have heard from my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester, to determine what sorts of activities would be safe, appropriate and suitable for young volunteers aged 14 to 16 to perform on the railways.

Of course, regulators should, and do, take a proportionate approach to enforcement action. It is worth noting that the last time the 1920 Act was used to support health and safety enforcement was in 2009. As my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester told us, there have been no prosecutions under the 1920 Act, either of public bodies or private individuals, which proves that the status quo is not absolutely terrible.

The aim of this amendment is to remove any barriers to allow children to gain valuable experience volunteering on heritage railways and tramways. Nobody wants to see more young men and women developing an interest and, indeed, a career on the railway more than I do. It is not clear that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that this legislation is creating any barriers and, as we know, many heritage railways run very successfully with young people volunteering in a wide range of activities to support those ventures.

Both the Office of Rail and Road and the Health and Safety Executive remain very willing to work with the Heritage Railway Association to develop additional guidance and, possibly, examples of good practice to ensure that young volunteers can continue to work safely in heritage railway settings. While this is a sensible and proportionate way forward to address this issue, I have heard the strength of opinion on this matter from across the Committee. I am more than happy and willing to facilitate a meeting with my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester—other noble Lords may be interested—with the HRA, DfT, ORR and HSE to further pursue this issue. Without making any further commitments, I therefore ask my noble friend to withdraw this amendment for now.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, when the Minister has his meeting with the Members of this House who are interested in this issue, I think he will need to hold it in quite a large room. I am very gratified by the strength and quantity of support that there has been for this amendment and issue from across the Chamber.

I intend to take up the Minister’s kind offer and I hope we can do that before we reach Report. If, by then, it is possible for there to be an understanding of how the law can be interpreted or possibly changed, it may not be necessary to come back on Report. However, I think the House as a whole would like the opportunity to express its view on Report, particularly in view of the very strong support in the Chamber this afternoon, if we do not have a solution by then.

Meanwhile, I thank everybody who has taken part. I thank my noble friend the Minister; my co-signatory, the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay; and all the other noble Lords who took part. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

My Lords, I will be brief. This group of probing amendments relates to new provisions in the Bill concerning trade union access to the workplace. Amendments 208A, 209A, 210 and 210A would narrow the definition of access by removing or limiting references to communication with workers, including through digital channels. These changes would raise questions about how access is intended to operate in practice, particularly in light of evolving workplace models. It would be most helpful to hear from the Minister how these changes are expected to support the overall objectives of the Bill and whether they risk narrowing the scope of access in ways that may affect its effectiveness.

Amendments 209, 211 and 213 in this group would also address the application of provisions to small and medium-sized enterprises. Others, including Amendments 213AA and 213B, introduce specific considerations for sectors including healthcare—all very laudable and quite reasonable—or for the timing and method of access for those applications. These amendments appear to probe the balance between ensuring orderly access and managing operational pressures. Could the Minister clarify how the framework, as currently drafted, is expected to work in different types of workplaces as I have alluded to, and how it ensures that both the employers’ and employees’ work interests are taken into account?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate on this group, and in particular I thank the noble Lords, Lord Jackson of Peterborough and Lord Sharpe of Epsom, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and my noble friend Lord Hendy for tabling Amendments 208A, 209, 209A, 210, 210A, 211, 212, 213, 213A, 213B and 214.

Before we get into the detail, I will frame my remarks by pointing out that we have heard previously in this debate in quite heated tones a discussion of the role of trade unions in our society. From our perspective as a Government, and from my perspective—for what it is worth, I have been a member of a trade union all my working life—progressive legislation and reform, which we on this side have always tried to pursue through working with the trade union movement, have done much to improve not just the world of work and the rights of workers but the economy as a whole. We are proud of this progress and history. This Bill represents a further stride towards a successful, mature framework for employment relations in this country.

It is important when we talk about striking the balance between employers, unions and workers—in particular, between employers and workers—that we do not equate the two as having equality in terms of power dynamics. That is often missed from this debate. Many employees, whether they work in Amazon’s warehouses, an SME or a microbusiness, do not necessarily feel that they have the same equality of relationship with their employer as their employer has with them. That may be natural, but one of the roles of a trade union or employee representative is to level that playing field. It is always important when discussing trade union rights to bear that in mind.

In Amendments 209, 211 and 213, the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, are seeking to exempt smaller businesses from Clause 56. The right of access is a key part of our wider commitment to strengthening workers’ voices in the workplace, enhancing their representation and ultimately improving working conditions through increased trade union membership, participation and dialogue. My noble friend Lady O’Grady of Upper Holloway ably illustrated why, in some cases, trade unions do not need any improvements to access because they have a perfectly good and amicable working relationship. It is worth noting that in roughly 30% of the cases referred to the CAC the applications have been withdrawn because there has been a voluntary agreement, and that is a very good thing to see. However, there are cases where there is not that level of co-operation and access, which is why the Government are legislating to provide it.

We have heard in debates on previous groups that noble Lords on the Benches opposite think that trade unions are a good thing and have a role in the workplace. I absolutely take them at face value on that. To have that role in the workplace, they need to have access to workers. We cannot be starry-eyed about this; not all employers behave as responsibly and open-mindedly as we all believe they should in creating access for employees to their representatives. That is why we are discussing these bits of the Bill tonight.

The policy we have developed has been designed to be fair, consistent and workable for all employers. We will consult on specific details of the framework before they are set out in secondary legislation, including with the CAC, and we encourage businesses and unions to share their views. I understand the points around legal ambiguity raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, but, in the previous group, we discussed the levels of granularity and specificity in a particular statement that it is proposed that employers should give to employees about their rights to join a trade union. I posit that, if we had had the level of detail that the noble Lord suggested, we would have had a similar level of discontent from Members opposite. That is of course their right, but I make the point gently that you cannot have it both ways.

I turn now to Amendments 212 and 213B. Amendment 212 would require that trade unions provide a request for access to a workplace in writing, and with more than 24 hours’ notice from the requested date and time that access would happen. Amendment 213B would introduce two additional factors for the CAC to consider when making a determination on whether access should occur: first, the method, frequency and timing of the access requested, and, secondly, whether the purpose of access could be reasonably met without physical entry into the workplace. The Secretary of State will, by regulations, be able to set the time period in which an employer is required to respond to a request for access from a trade union, as well as the form that the trade union’s request must take and the manner in which it is provided to the employer.

I will respond to the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, around the difference between this sort of trade union activity and organising for industrial action. As far as I am concerned, it is pretty obvious that this is about organising for recognition, where the legal conditions can be met, and indeed organising for recruitment and awareness for other very reasonable trade union activities, such as promoting health and safety at work, which we all agree is important and worthwhile.

The Secretary of State will also be able to set, through regulations, the circumstances the CAC must take into account when making decisions on access. These areas of detail will be subject to public consultation before the regulations are made, and we will invite all interested parties to provide us with their views on these matters when we launch our consultation. To pick up on the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, he may find that 24 hours after the consultation is deemed to be just right, or indeed too short a period. That is the reason for this consultation, rather than just prescribing everything at this point in time. If we had prescribed it in the Bill, and it was less than 24 hours, I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, would not be at all happy.

Amendment 214 was tabled by my noble friend Lord Hendy. The proposals in this amendment would make declarations by the CAC under new Section 70ZI(5) enforceable, as if made by the High Court, opening a greater possibility of an employer being found to be in contempt of court. I am happy to reassure my noble friend that new Sections 70ZH and 70ZK, which were introduced by the Government on Report in the other place, already provide for a strong remedy against employers who do not respect these new rights of access, mainly in the form of CAC orders but ultimately backed by serious financial penalties when necessary. As my noble friend Lady O’Grady of Upper Holloway said, these need to be serious financial penalties and they need to have heft. The new sections that were tabled on Report in the other place say that penalties can be linked to various metrics, such as annual turnover or, indeed, the number of workers employed in the liable entity. In the case of large companies, that would make a very serious penalty indeed. We do not want them to be fined; we want them to grant the access to trade unions and trade union representatives that their employees deserve. In our view, the available remedies are already powerful and proportionate. The Government do not consider it necessary to go beyond these.

Lastly, I turn to Amendments 210, 208A, 209A, 210A and 213A. The noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, are seeking in Amendments 210 and Amendments 208A to 213A to exempt digital forms of communication from the right of access policy. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, that can be found in new Sections 70ZA(4)(a) and (b) in the Bill as it left the other place. This clause was designed for the modern workplace and with various working practices in mind. It is important that this clause provides for a digital right of access to ensure that unions can reach workers who may not work in a physical workplace, such as home workers or those who work in a hybrid manner. In my opinion, if I may be so bold, the noble Lord, Leigh of Hurley, answered his own point. As he acknowledged, in some businesses, it is not as simple—

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I am a bit puzzled about how access to digital can work side by side with the protections we have for data security.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I was going to mention it later, but I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, that existing data protection legislation will continue to apply. I do not want to say that shrouds were waved, but there were a lot of quite fanciful hypotheses as to what digital access might involve. To be frank, as the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, suggested—sorry to pick him out—it could simply mean that employers are, through their own email system, obliged to cascade a message from trade unions to their employees without the trade unions having direct access to the systems at all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

Before the noble Lord moves on from that point, I am fully aware of where the reference to digital is in the Bill now. The point that I was trying to make to the Minister was to justify why, when the Bill was originally presented to the House of Commons—perhaps I should have been more specific—it was not mentioned at all. I believe it was not inserted in Committee, so it must have come somewhere on Report, but I cannot find any justification made by the Government for why they have added this digital communication when they had not put it in at either the introduction of the Bill or in Committee in the other place, when it has the most scrutiny at that end. I had hoped the civil servants might have sent him a note.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I assume my civil servants understand that I probably know the answer to that question—they might be right, or they may be wrong. To cast my mind to the inner workings of Committee in the other place, the reference in the Bill, as I understand it, is to communication with workers rather than explicitly to digital communication. I sometimes feel that I cannot speak for the way we examine Bills in Committee in this place, let alone in the other place.

We now have the opportunity to discuss, as we are doing, the fact that in the modern day, in 2025, the idea that access to a workforce would not include digital channels is, frankly, fanciful. Were we seriously to say, not to trade unions but to employees—to workers—that the only way that they could receive a message from a trade union or from an employee representative or, to turn it on its head, from an employer was on a piece of paper or in a one-to-one verbal communication, then I think we would all regard that as fanciful. There is a little bit of sophistry—

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

Just to expand on this a little further, we are not arguing that unions should not have the right to communicate digitally with workers. That is not the issue; the issue is the right of access. The Government are asking the House of Lords tonight to pass legislation that will allow a third person the right to access an employee’s computer—let us imagine that it is an SME business, possibly run on only one computer, which may contain highly sensitive information; in my case, that would be market-sensitive information— without any controls, references or parameters. I invite the Minister to commit that, before Report, further consideration is made of what such right of access means and the limitations on that right of access. We are not trying to exclude communication to workers; we are just trying to find out the channels and protect SMEs from intrusive activities.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I am happy to write to the noble Lord with more detail, but this is one of things that will be set out in regulation following extensive consultation. I go back to the original point of principle that I made about levels of granularity in setting out specific channels: if we specify channels A, B and C, as soon as the Bill is published we risk finding that employers are actually using channels E, F and G, because that is the pace of technology as it develops, so we have to retain flexibility.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

Will the Minister write to me with a better, candidly, a more comprehensive answer than he has given so far in response to my questions? I would be very grateful.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I am very happy to write. I resist the idea that I am not being candid here. The noble Baroness may not like what I am saying, but the point stands. I am of course very happy to write to her and to the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, with more detail.

In conclusion, we expect that, in many cases, employers and trade unions will be able to agree the terms on which access takes place, including for digital access. In the event that there is no agreement, the CAC can impose terms, including terms dealing with digital access. I repeat: the precise details of how this will work in practice will be set out in secondary legislation following further consultation. I therefore ask that Amendment 208A be withdrawn and that noble Lords do not press their other amendments.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, first, I say to the House authorities that we greatly appreciate the way they have tolerated the fact that we have gone way beyond the normal rising time on a Thursday, particularly as we are sitting tomorrow at 10 am. In mitigation, I note that we have tried to truncate what is a hugely important group of amendments. There are many things that we would want to probe further, so we will have to return to this on Report.

I thank my noble friends Lord Jackson of Peterborough, Lady Lawlor, Lord Leigh of Hurley and Lady Coffey for their contributions. I was interested, as always, to hear the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady, although I hope that she will mitigate the damage she may have done with her remarks about one of the biggest investors in the UK, Amazon.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

I am sorry about that discordant note, introduced into what has been a really useful day in Committee on this important Bill.

I hope that people outside will realise that we have been debating a group of amendments that were made at the last moment in the House of Commons. They have not had any scrutiny at all in Committee in the Commons. That is why this House has so much responsibility to ensure that, in a fast-moving digital world, we do not transgress in a way that places employers and employees in an impossible position.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport. He asked some direct questions, but we have not yet had the answers to them. It may well be that the Minister will write generally to us all to respond to the points he did not have time to answer today. I appreciate that he has limited time too, but he might like to respond in writing to us all, covering the points that he has not yet been able to deal with.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I am very happy to write, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Goddard.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

On that positive note, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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House resumed.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

From our Benches, I thank the staff, the clerks and the Deputy Chairman for staying later than they usually would be required to do on a Thursday. I look forward to seeing noble Lords tomorrow.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment would introduce necessary and proportionate safeguards to ensure that patient safety, clinical operations and infection control were not compromised by well-intentioned but potentially disruptive physical access to hospital environments by trade union representatives. Hospitals are not ordinary workplaces. They are places where critical decisions are made every minute, where vulnerable patients receive life-saving care and where medical professionals must operate in conditions that are tightly controlled in terms of both hygiene and procedure. Permitting physical access to union representatives who are not part of the clinical team and not governed by the same professional or ethical codes introduces risks that simply cannot be ignored.

These are not theoretical concerns. Infection control protocols exist precisely because hospitals deal daily with immunocompromised patients, open surgical wounds and the spread of dangerous pathogens. Entry by any individual not trained in and accountable to those protocols could result in the transmission of infections, the contamination of sterile areas or the unintended exposure of patients to harm. Moreover, hospital environments are highly sensitive to disruption. In intensive care units, emergency departments, operating theatres and maternity wards, even small delays or distractions can have life-or-death consequences. The presence of non-essential personnel in those spaces risks delaying clinical teams, congesting movement corridors, or interfering with time-critical procedures.

Physical access is not just a logistical matter; it can be a direct threat to a hospital’s ability to function safely and effectively. The amendment does not seek to deny trade unions the ability to communicate with members or fulfil their lawful functions. On the contrary, it would explicitly allow access to be withheld only where the access purpose could reasonably be achieved by alternative means; and in the 21st century, such alternatives, as we heard last week, are abundant. Virtual meetings, secure digital communications, designated liaison officers or scheduled engagement in non-clinical areas would all be viable channels for meaningful trade union engagement.

Hospitals are already under enormous pressure, so it is neither safe nor fair to expect them to open their most sensitive environments when those same objectives can be achieved by safer, more appropriate methods. Hospitals also bear legal and regulatory duties that cannot be suspended. Clinical professionals are legally obliged to safeguard patients and maintain secure environments. To require hospitals to grant physical access to non-clinical actors where such access could conflict with those duties would place hospital management in a difficult, nay impossible, position, risking litigation, regulatory sanction and, above all, the trust of the public.

The amendment further recognises the importance of proportionality. It does not seek to impose an outright prohibition; it would simply require the Central Arbitration Committee, when deciding on access disputes, to give significant weight to those clinical and operational factors. That is the right balance, respecting the legitimate role of trade unions while upholding the sanctity of hospital care. To oppose this amendment would be to ignore the distinct and high-stakes nature of hospital environments. No one disputes the value of union representation, but the right to organise must never override the duty to protect.

Hospitals are not platforms for industrial theatre; they are sanctuaries of healing staffed by professionals who need order, safety and focus to save lives. We have a duty to shield them from any policy that risks disrupting that mission. I urge the Committee to support the amendment and uphold the principle that access, however important, must never come at the expense of patient welfare. I beg to move.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, for his amendment and I hope, perhaps, that the lack of contributions means that we will make some good progress in Committee today.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

We have been making progress.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

On the noise from a sedentary position, I mean in numerical terms, if not in substantive debate.

As the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, just outlined, Amendment 213AA seeks to makes specific provisions for access into hospital workplaces by specifying circumstances in which access may be reasonably refused. It also requires the CAC to consider and give more weight to these factors when deciding on access.

As we discussed last week, the Secretary of State will be able, through regulations, to set the circumstances that the CAC must take into account when making decisions on access, including potentially complex access arrangements in workplaces such as hospitals and other healthcare settings. These areas of detail will be subject to public consultation before the regulations are made and we will invite all interested parties to provide their views on these matters when we launch our consultation.

It is a complex policy area that will involve detailed practical considerations. It is not as though, at the moment, we do not have strong and healthy engagement with a number of different trade unions in all manner of healthcare settings, including hospitals. We have trade union access, involvement and activity in complex workplaces, including hospitals. Special consideration is given to the importance of keeping them sterile and safe, particularly for those who have immunocompromised conditions and, indeed, anybody who is a patient in that setting. This can and has been achieved, and it is perfectly reasonable for the CAC, following consultation, to make regulations that set this. As I said, this is not a policy area that is not already well rehearsed and understood.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, is right that hospitals are particularly special settings but they are also workplaces. The NHS employs large numbers of people and has a very mature industrial relations framework within it. It is certainly not implausible that, in consultation with all interested parties, the CAC could come to a perfectly reasonable compromise on access.

The Government also feel that it is not appropriate to make specific provisions for just this one kind of workplace—hospitals—prior to consultation. We are talking about hospital workplaces as opposed to, say, general practitioner or dental surgeries or other areas where you have regard to clinical safety and the sorts of considerations that the noble Lord talked about. Given that, I ask him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his answer, but a little disappointed. His words largely give away why the Government should accept this amendment. I believe he just used the phrase “reasonable compromise” with regard to the Central Arbitration Committee, whereas the amendment just says

“must give significant weight to the factors set out in subsection (2A)”.

The practical impact of both those phrases is much the same.

So I am disappointed that the Government have chosen to reject this amendment, which is modest, carefully constructed and aimed at protecting one of our most vital public services. We were not asking for a sweeping exclusion, nor undermining the rights of trade unions or seeking—to use the noble Lord’s phraseology—to restrict involvement. We proposed a targeted safeguard that simply recognises the unique, high-risk nature of hospital environments. I will not press the point now, but we reserve the right to return to this in due course. For now, I beg leave to withdraw.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

No, the noble Baroness got it right.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

These amendments seek to delay when unions would be able to request access during the recognition process until after the bargaining unit had been agreed or determined. While I understand what the noble Lord is attempting to achieve with these amendments, employers have access to the workforce throughout the recognition process. The Government’s view is that unions should have access to the workplace as well from the point where the CAC accepts the application for recognition. This enables the unions to also have access to the workplace for a time closer to the start of the recognition process.

Amendments 215FG, 215FH, 216GA and 216MA seek to remove specific unfair practices from Schedule 6. They seem to seek to allow employers or unions to make an outcome-specific offer or use undue influence with a view to influencing the recognition application. These unfair practices are of long standing and are already set out in the legislation currently in force. The use of undue influence could, for example, include the threat or the use of violence. We therefore see no argument for removing these prohibitions on these unfair practices.

Amendment 216 seeks to reverse changes in the Bill by reinstating the requirement that unions meet the 40% support threshold in addition to a majority in a statutory union recognition ballot. I remind noble Lords that this was a manifesto commitment set out clearly in our plan to make work pay. We are committed to strengthening collective bargaining rights and trade union recognition. We believe that strong trade unions are essential for tackling insecurity, inequality, discrimination, enforcement and low pay. Our view is that the existing legal framework needs to be simplified so that workers have a more meaningful right to organise through their trade unions.

To achieve this, we are removing the current requirement for a union to have at least 40% of the workforce in the proposed bargaining unit supporting union recognition. In future, unions will need only a simple majority in a recognition ballot to win. We believe that the 40% support threshold represents too high a hurdle in modern workplaces, which are increasingly fragmented.

Amendment 216KA seeks to ensure that an employer is not prohibited from taking action against the worker for meeting or indicating that they would like to meet unions during the statutory recognition process if the worker has breached any term of their contract of employment. The prohibition that this amendment seeks to amend is carried forward from the existing legislation, where the proposed proviso about the worker not having breached their contract does not appear. While well intentioned, this amendment is not necessary. The prohibition applies only where the employer takes action against the worker solely or mainly on the grounds that they met with the union. It does not apply where the sole or main purpose is another reason, which may, in some circumstances, be a breach of their contract of employment. I hope this provides the necessary reassurance to the noble Lord.

I therefore thank the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, for the debate and for tabling these amendments, but I must ask the noble Lord not to move the amendments.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Jackson of Peterborough and Lord Sharpe of Epsom, for their amendments relating to the provision of facilities to trade union officials and representatives, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, for speaking to them. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, for initiating debate on Clause 62, to which I will also speak.

In Amendments 224 to 233, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, he seeks to amend Clause 61 to maintain, as he argues, a reasonable balance of obligations and responsibilities between employers and employees. Like the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, I take the amendments at face value: they are probing and not wrecking, and the noble Lord is trying to understand the appropriate balance. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, that the clause already seeks a reasonable balance of obligations and responsibilities between employers and employee representatives. The paid time off that trade union representatives receive is often insufficient to fulfil all their trade union duties. Many union representatives use significant amounts of their own time to support workplace relations. Indeed, in some sectors, in some companies, in some firms, their trade union activity is carried out very much on a voluntary basis rather than it being about people having full-time release and doing nothing towards the organisation apart from conducting trade union duties.

The Government want to rebalance obligations and responsibilities by ensuring that union workplace representatives are able to take sufficient paid facility time and have sufficient access to facilities to enable them to fulfil their union representative duties. While the clause grants trade union representatives the right to facility time and accommodation and other facilities from their employers, it does so by having regard to a relevant code of practice issued by ACAS. The ACAS guidance will help employers to implement these measures and will be updated in partnership and through consultation with both employers and trade unions. It will therefore help to ensure that a balance of obligations and responsibilities is secured, and ACAS is a very appropriate and worthy organisation to undertake that role.

Greater facility time will lead to improved work representation and better industrial relations by giving trade unions and workplace representatives the freedom to organise, represent and negotiate on behalf of their workers. This will result in more mature industrial relations and increased co-operation between employers and unionised workers, leading to beneficial outcomes for businesses and the economy. This is a framework to promote more co-operation and understanding at work, not more scope for conflict.

Amendments 234 to 236 concerning Clause 62, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, require that a performance condition must be met before facility time for equality representatives is provided by public sector employers. This would make the provision of facility time contingent on the employer already meeting certain performance standards, although the amendment is not specific about what those standards are.

We fully recognise the importance of strong public sector performance and accountability. However, linking facility time for equality representatives to performance conditions is both disproportionate and counterproductive, as it would create a barrier to improvement and creating stronger industrial relations. These amendments would require the Secretary of State to certify that a public sector employer is meeting relevant statutory performance standards before facility time can be granted. Together, they would pose heavy administrative burdens on both employers, who would need to apply and provide evidence, and central government, which would have to assess compliance for every employer.

I hesitate in suggesting this, but in speaking to other amendments on the Bill in Committee, those on the Benches opposite have been very quick to point out the administrative burdens that they assume are being placed on employers across all sectors by various measures in the Bill. The kind of burdens that this amendment would place on the public sector would not be tolerated by them on the private sector. More fundamentally, they would risk delaying facility time precisely for those organisations most in need of support and undermine the very purpose of equality representatives. Furthermore, a Secretary of State-led certification process would create legal uncertainty and potential disputes. It could also harm industrial relations in the public sector.

Finally, I turn to the opposition of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, to Clause 62. This clause inserts new Section 168B into the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 and requires that an employer must permit an employee who is

“a member of an independent trade union recognised by the employer, and an equality representative of the trade union, to take time off during the employee’s working hours”

for specified purposes. However, this applies only if

“the trade union has given the employer notice in writing that the employee is an equality representative of the union”,

or will be undergoing or has completed training to become an equality representative. Sufficient training is that which is sufficient for fulfilling the purposes of an equality representative role, having regard to a relevant code of practice issued by ACAS or the Secretary of State.

Clause 62 also requires that the employer must permit the employee to take paid time off during working hours to undergo training relevant to their role as an equality representative and, where requested, provide the employee with accommodation and other facilities to enable them to fulfil their role, having regard to the relevant code of practice issued by ACAS. Should an employer fail to permit the employee to take time off or to provide the employee with facilities as required, the employee may present a complaint to an employment tribunal, at which it will be for the employer to show that the amount of time off that the employee proposed was not reasonable. So far on those grounds, it is as for any other recognised rep status.

Trade unions have long fought for equality: from Grunwick to the Bristol bus boycott, to campaigning on Section 28, to recently standing up for retail workers—mostly female—who have to cope with violence in the workplace, particularly from customers. It is important to recognise, as, it is fair to say, the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, did in her remarks, that equality reps have a key role in raising awareness and promoting equal rights for members, as well as in developing collective policies and practices that enable organisations to realise all the benefits of being an equal opportunities employer.

The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, gave some specific examples. I join with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, in saying that the cases the noble Baroness recounted, of Nurses Jennifer and Peggie, were horrific experiences you would not want to see anyone encounter. However, I am unsure that using that single brush to tar the feathers of the whole equality reps proposal is proportionate. There may be some correlation, but I am not sure that there is causation.

Clause 62 recognises a trade union equality representative as a person appointed or elected in accordance with the trade union rules, in a manner consistent with the Equality Act 2010. I contend that equality reps have a key role to play in raising awareness and promoting equal rights for all members, as well as in developing collective policies and practices that will enable organisations to realise all the benefits of being an equal opportunities employer. It is pure speculation but, had equality reps been in place in local authorities in earlier decades, and had there been more awareness of inequality in women’s pay, those local authorities facing significant equal pay claims today might not be facing them. Who can say?

I am not sure how rhetorical the questions were from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, on the sort of equality. For the purpose of the clause, it is defined in the Equality Act 2010.

Turning to Amendment 237—

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as the Minister asked a direct question, I might as well answer it now. I gave individual examples. I am sorry if the personalised examples made it sound as though they are one-off cases. I was simply trying to bring alive trends, not say, “Nurse Peggie”. There are loads of them, but I only had 10 minutes. They are trends, but I have brought them alive, I hope.

I ask the Minister to reflect on two things. As the Equality Act 2010 defines equality, I used the example that many trade unions are saying that they will refuse to acknowledge the Supreme Court clarification of what equality means under that very Act. They are going to defy it in the name of equality—trans inclusion and so on. How do you square that circle?

Secondly, the Minister read out the points about training. In part, I was challenging whether the Government care what the content of that training is. My argument was that the training being used in the name of equality is divisive and may not be helpful in the workplace, and is in fact likely to turn worker against worker, rather than the reverse. Do the Government consider any of that, or do they just hand it over to the reps?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I will try to address those points now. Of course we care whether reps, when undertaking any role—whether it is health and safety, learning, or workplace negotiation—comply with the law and are trained in a suitable manner. That does not mean we should necessarily be scrutinising every single thing they do, because one would not expect that in the normal way of things.

I certainly did not mean to belittle the examples the noble Baroness gave, and I am sure they are not the only ones. But at the same time, one cannot make the generalisation that this is endemic across all workplaces where there is union representation. I will also speculate —as we are sort of speculating here—that the engagement and involvement of equality reps might prevent the kind of activity the noble Baroness outlined in the case of Nurses Sandie Peggie and Jennifer. That is counterfactual speculation; one cannot say either way, but it is worth positing if we are serious about discussing this.

I should add, without wanting to stray too far from my brief and, indeed, land myself in some kind of legal hot water, that the Government’s expectation is that all organisations will comply with equalities law in every manner while carrying out their duties. Whatever equality law clearly specifies, we expect all organisations, employers and trade unions to follow that.

[Baroness Verma (Con)]

May I just ask the Minister a very small question? In business, we already comply with the Equality Act. Most businesses do it because it is mandated, but we would do it anyway because it is a good thing to do. Reflecting on the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, my only concern is the cultural sensitivities that may arise from equality reps taking into account, or not taking into account, some communities’ internal machinations regarding how they see certain equality roles.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

For what it is worth, my experience of working in businesses is that most employers, large or small, understand the importance to the nuts and bolts of economic growth and productivity of having harmonious workforces and being respectful employers who listen to the needs of their workforces, however they manifest themselves.

Again—a hypothesis. I think I understand what the noble Baroness is getting at. In a workforce that largely comes from a particular BME community, but that has a management not of that community, the presence of an equality rep from the majority community in the workforce who can make representations concerning sensitivities around religious observance, modes of dress, and modes of communication, could be to the good for that workplace in creating a greater understanding between the management and the workforce. One is only speculating here.

Before the noble Baroness stands up again, as I sense she might, I will say that equality reps are a new idea. They already exist in voluntary organisations, but the Government think that it would be good for workplaces to have more of them in place and that they would promote more harmonious and productive workforces. I observe that having health and safety reps has led to better adherence to health and safety laws and regulations, with fewer issues with health and safety misdemeanours, accidents and the like in workplaces. Similarly, union learning reps have been a fantastic innovation in promoting learning and skills in different workplaces. The notion of promoting equality and cultural sensitivities in different workplaces, as the noble Baroness put it, is a noble aim.

[Baroness Verma (Con)]

I thank the Minister, but I think he is going to tie himself in knots on this one, because there are challenges that will not be rightly represented. To indulge the Minister, maybe I could have an offline conversation with him to explain where I am coming from.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I am very happy with that and I apologise if I have misunderstood the point that the noble Baroness was trying to make. This has been a fascinating debate but, in the interests of time, I want us to make progress and finish.

Amendment 237 was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom. The Government resist this amendment, which unnecessarily asks the Government to conduct a sectoral cost assessment of trade union facility time. We strongly dispute the notion that facility time represents a significant cost to employers. We have already conducted an impact assessment that covers the measures in the Bill. This assessment noted that the cost of facility time is not likely to be significant for particular employers. Instead, it could benefit business performance in the form of increased worker training and support greater worker retention through a reduction in dismissals and voluntary exits.

It is worth noting that the estimated percentage of public sector pay bills spent on facility time in the first year of reporting regulations that were enforced in 2017-18 was 0.07%, and that, for the 2023-24 reporting year, the figure was 0.06%. That suggests a minimal impact of facility time in the public sector. Before I turn to Amendment 333, it is worth saying that we expect further savings from the Exchequer resulting from more positive industrial relations, which come about through greater facility time. For instance, we expect enhanced facility time to result in a reduction in the number of disputes going to an employment tribunal. This again makes the point that more harmonious workforces are more productive workforces.

Amendment 333 was also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom. Again, the Government strongly dispute the notion that facility time represents a significant cost to employers and we have already conducted an impact assessment covering the measures in the Bill. The amendment is therefore not necessary and would simply delay the implementation of this clause and the benefits that equality representatives would bring.

I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, to withdraw Amendment 224 and I hope that noble Lords agree that Clause 62 has a rightful place in the Bill.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friends Lady Coffey and Lord Moynihan, and the noble Lords, Lord Goddard and Lord Hutton. I will come back to their amendments shortly.

I will speak to Amendments 245, 251B and the question of whether Clause 68 should stand part, which is tabled in my name. On the clause stand part, this clause represents a dangerous step backwards. The noble Lord, Lord Goddard, objected to it in the sense that he thought it might introduce a lack of clarity. But the fact is that the clause itself is a step backwards in transparency and democratic accountability that this Committee must not allow to pass unchallenged.

The provisions that Clause 68 seeks to remove, notably subsections (2B) to (2D) of Section 229, are not bureaucratic obstacles but fundamental pillars of informed democratic participation. They require that voting papers should include a summary of the dispute, specify the types of industrial action proposed and indicate when such action is expected to take place. These are not unreasonable burdens. They are the basic information any voter needs to make an informed decision.

Democracy thrives on transparency, not opacity. When we ask working people to vote on whether to take industrial action—a decision that may affect their employment, their families’ livelihoods and their future prospects—surely they are owed the courtesy of clear, comprehensive information about what they might be voting for.

Consider the absurdity of what this clause actually proposes. It is a ballot paper that asks, “Are you prepared to take part in industrial action short of a strike?” without specifying whether this means a work-to-rule, an overtime ban, a refusal to cover additional duties or any combination of actions. How can any reasonable person make an informed choice without knowing what they are agreeing to participate in?

The Government may well argue that these requirements impose administrative burdens on the trade unions, which is an argument we have heard on a couple of groups tonight. But since when did we consider informing voters to be an administrative burden rather than a democratic duty? We would not accept a general election ballot that failed to specify what office candidates were seeking or what their party stood for, so why should we accept industrial action ballots with less information?

Furthermore, these information requirements serve to protect union members themselves. Clear information helps ensure that workers understand not just what they are voting for but the potential consequences of their actions. This protects both their interests and those of their unions by reducing the likelihood of disputes over the course, scope or nature of mandated action.

Turning to Amendment 245, I agree with the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Moynihan of Chelsea, and the noble Lord, Lord Goddard. I will speak to this amendment, although I must emphasise that my primary concern is not with the amendment itself but the Government’s fundamentally flawed approach to this critical issue. To be absolutely clear, the 50% turnout threshold for industrial action ballots should be maintained. This threshold exists for the very good reason that it ensures that strikes and other industrial actions have genuine democratic legitimacy, as the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, pointed out, and that they represent the will of a substantial portion of union membership and not merely an activist minority.

If the Government are determined to weaken these democratic protections, and regrettably it appears that they are, they must not compound this error by hiding behind secondary legislation. Businesses across this nation deserve better. They need to know the regulatory framework within which they will operate—a theme to which we have returned a number of times through the Bill. They cannot plan for investment, assess risk or make employment decisions when fundamental aspects of industrial relations law are left hanging in regulatory limbo. The Government’s approach creates precisely the uncertainty that undermines economic confidence and job creation.

I urge the Government to reconsider entirely and maintain the 50% threshold to provide the certainty that businesses need and the democratic legitimacy that industrial action requires. If the Government insist that they are going to lower the threshold, which we think will be disastrous, it should be in the Bill, so that we can scrutinise it fully, which is what my amendment would ensure. As my noble friend Lord Moynihan pointed out, a 20% threshold could lead to only 10% of a workforce supporting strike action. The House deserves the opportunity to examine and debate such fundamental changes properly and not have them smuggled through in statutory instruments with minimal parliamentary oversight.

I will speak very briefly to Amendment 251A, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hutton. I could not agree with him more. It would be a very regrettable error if the Bill were to inadvertently introduce an unintended consequence of potentially swingeing fines for airlines, for reasons that are not really any fault of their own. It is to be supported, and I hope he will return to the theme.

My Amendment 251B proposes a modest but vital extension, from 10 to 14 days, of the notice period required before industrial action can commence in the railway sector, for slightly different reasons. This is not an attempt to restrict workers’ rights but rather a recognition of the unique role that our railway system plays in the economic and social fabric of the nation. The railway network is not just another industry. As my noble friend Lady Coffey pointed out, it is the circulatory system of the economy and it moves millions of passengers and vast quantities of freight every single day. When railway services are disrupted, the effects cascade through every sector of society, from healthcare workers unable to reach hospitals to students missing examinations and businesses losing millions in productivity. The current 10-day notice period that is proposed is simply insufficient for the complexity of railway operations. I could go on, but I think I have said enough on the subject.

Four additional days may seem modest, but, in the context of the operations of the railway and airlines, it represents the difference between chaos and managed disruption. It allows time for proper contingency planning, for negotiations to continue and for the travelling public to make alternative arrangements. With that, I shall wind up, but I hope the Government are paying attention and will at least listen to these carefully considered amendments.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe of Epsom and Lord Goddard of Stockport, and my noble friends Lord Hutton of Furness and Lord Hendy for tabling amendments on the subject of industrial action ballot mandates, thresholds and notice. Despite the late hour, I recognise that there is significant interest here. I will try to do justice to all those amendments and to the opposition to certain clauses standing part of the Bill.

Before I go into the detail, I want to make it clear that a lot of what we are discussing relates to the repeal of the great majority of the Trade Union Act 2016, which was a clear manifesto commitment for this Government. I think it is worth framing why that is the context. This does, in a way, speak to a lot of what the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, mentioned. Far from supporting the economy, the strike legislation in the 2016 Act that we inherited from the then Opposition did not actually prevent strikes. In 2022, we lost more days to strikes than France. In 2023 and 2024, NHS strikes alone cost the taxpayer £1.7 billion.

[Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)]

The noble Lord and others keep referring to the 2016 Act, but the amendments that we have been addressing in this section are all amendments to the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

With respect, there are definitely elements in the group of amendments we are talking about that relate to the 2016 Act. I was simply setting out the context for my remarks. Perhaps the noble Lord will let me make some progress, and, if he is still not satisfied towards the end of the speech, we can spend a bit more time on this.

As I was saying, 2.7 million working days were lost to strike action in 2023, up from 2.5 million in 2022, and these were the highest annual number of working days lost to strikes since 1989. Put frankly, the 2016 Act did not achieve its objective of reducing strikes—in fact, it made things worse.

Amendment 244, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, and Amendment 245, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, both seek, in different ways, to remove the repeal of the 50% industrial action ballot turnout threshold. The Bill as drafted repeals this threshold in its entirety, returning us to the situation pre 2016, where only a simple majority of members voting in favour of strike action was required for industrial action to be deemed lawful.

We want to create a positive and modern framework for trade union legislation that delivers productive, constructive engagement, respects the democratic mandate of unions and reduces bureaucratic hurdles. The date for repeal of the 50% threshold will be set out in regulations at a future date, with the intention that it is aligned with the establishment of e-balloting as an option for trade unions. In combination with the delivery of modern, secure workplace balloting, we hope that this will ensure that industrial action mandates will have demonstrably broad support.

I turn to the opposition to Clause 66 standing part. In answer to the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, this clause does indeed seek to amend Section 226 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act to reverse the change made by Section 3 of the Trade Union Act 2016. Section 226 is amended to omit subsections (2A) to (2F), thereby removing the requirement for industrial action ballots in six defined public services—health; fire services; education for those aged under 17; transport; decommissioning of nuclear installations, management of radioactive waste and spent fuel; and border security—to have the support of at least 40% of those entitled to vote for the industrial action in order to be valid.

Alongside Clause 65, which removes the turnout threshold, a trade union will need only a simple majority of those voting in the ballot to vote in favour of industrial action for the industrial action to be deemed lawful. This was the case prior to the Trade Union Act 2016. This clause is a key part of the Government’s agenda. Again, I want to be clear that this is part of our commitment to repeal the Trade Union Act 2016.

I turn to Amendment 246, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport, and will speak to the opposition to Clause 69 standing part of the Bill. The noble Lord’s amendment seeks to retain the current six-month mandate period for industrial action following a successful ballot. The Government want to strike the right balance between ensuring that industrial action is based on a recent vote and reducing the need for re-ballots. Strike action is always a last resort; it is costly to workers as well as employers. For this reason, we consulted on the appropriate length of time before a trade union should re-ballot its members.

In that consultation, trade unions were very keen to have no need to re-ballot for a mandate at all. However, following the consultation, the Government have set the mandate period at 12 months, because the majority of industrial action concludes within that time. This will ensure the appropriate balance between reducing the costs of re-balloting and allowing mandates to continue for longer where they are likely to have continued members’ support, without prolonging disputes or permitting action to be called based on a more than year-old mandate. Retaining the six-month mandate period would prevent the Government delivering on their commitment substantively to repeal the Trade Union Act 2016.

I turn to the opposition to Clause 68 standing part from the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom. The purpose of this clause is to reduce the information that unions are required to include on a voting paper for industrial action, through repealing Section 5 of the Trade Union Act 2016, which introduced additional requirements into Section 229 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992. Section 5 of the 2016 Act required trade unions to include on the ballot paper a summary of the issues that are in dispute between the employer and the trade union; the type of industrial action that amounts to action short of a strike; and an indication of the time period during which it is expected that those specific types of action are to take place.

Repealing Section 5 will not remove all the information requirements. Under Section 229, the ballot paper will still require unions to ask their members on the ballot paper whether they support industrial action and which type of action they want to take part in, expressed in terms of whether it is strike action or action short of a strike. The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, made an analogy with ballot papers not containing details such as the names of candidates or the nature of the election. I respectfully point out that there is a danger in that analogy; I do not think it is fair. After all, noble Lords opposite would not expect democratic elections for elected office to carry the kind of mandate threshold that they are insisting trade union ballots should have. Whether they want to make the analogy that democratic elections are like union ballots or not, there is a bit of a pick and mix going on—

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

That is fair enough; I accept the noble Lord’s point when it comes to general elections but, in effect, this is a referendum, which is usually much more clear-cut.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

The point remains that there was not a threshold mandate for the few referendums that we have had. I maintain my point that ballots and elections are not really analogous, and there is danger for everyone in trying to compare the two.

The removal of the initial requirements imposed by the 2016 Act will reduce the red tape on trade union activity that works against their core role of negotiation and dispute resolution.

On the opposition to Clause 69, the purpose of the clause is to amend Section 234 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 to change the mandate period for industrial action following a successful ballot from six months to 12 months without the possibility of extension, which we have already discussed in Amendment 246. Among other things, the clause brings the appeals process back in line with the position before the Trade Union Act 2016 and many other enforcement bodies of employment law. For example, appeals against the decision of employment tribunals are considered only on points of law, not points of fact.

Amendment 249, tabled by my noble friend Lord Hendy, would require unions to publish results of industrial action ballots on a publicly accessible website, removing the current obligation to notify individual members and employers directly. The Government recognise that the current arrangements can impose a communications burden on trade unions, especially where first-class post is used to provide the notification to members and employers. However, removing the requirement to send direct notification risks reducing the accessibility and certainty of this information to those entitled to receive it. In our view, it undermines transparency and thus confidence in trade unions and the balloting process. Relying solely on a website assumes that members and employers will proactively seek out information, which could lead to disputes over whether that proper notification has occurred. Direct notification ensures clarity and transparency.

To address concerns about the administrative burden associated with these communication standards, the Government intend to update the Code of Practice: Industrial Action Ballots and Notice to Employers to encourage the use of email in place of posts where practicable. This approach preserves the principle of direct communication while reflecting modern methods of engagement and reducing administrative costs. For these reasons, I am afraid the Government do not support this amendment.

Amendment 251, again tabled by my noble friend Lord Hendy, seeks to simplify requirements on trade unions when issuing notices. While the Government understand the desire to streamline procedures, these notice provisions serve a vital purpose in ensuring that employers have the necessary information to plan for and respond to industrial action. The Government are already reducing the minimum notice period for industrial action from 14 days to 10 days, and removing the specific requirements that unions must provide in notice for industrial action, such as to disclose the number of employees in each category. This amendment risks removing too much detail, potentially leaving employers unclear on the nature, scale and timing of the action being proposed. Again, I am afraid, this is why the Government do not support my noble friend’s amendment.

The last amendments in this group are Amendments 251A, tabled by my noble friend Lord Hutton of Furness, and Amendment 251B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom. The Government do not support either of these amendments because our general position is not to make sectoral carve-outs from the limitations and conditions which apply to industrial action. This is consistent with our repeal of the 40% support threshold for industrial action and ballots in the repeal of the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act that set further conditions on industrial action in some public services. The same statutory notice period for industrial action across all sectors ensures a simple rule that is clear for all parties involved and that applies in all circumstances. It is then for employers in each sector to manage their industrial relations and their businesses accordingly. However, my noble friend Lord Hutton has some specific concerns around the airline industry and we are happy to meet to understand these concerns further.

The issue of the Clause 71 standing part of the Bill was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey. Alongside our manifesto commitment to repeal the 2016 Act, the Government are committed to bringing in a new era of partnership that fosters meaningful engagement between government, employers and unions, and this is grounded in co-operation and negotiation. We recognise the importance of striking a balance between allowing for effective strike action while also ensuring that employers are able to reasonably prepare for industrial action when, sadly, it has to occur—I should say when workers have voted for it to occur.

Clause 71 makes targeted changes to Section 234A of the 1992 Act to simplify the process by which trade unions provide that notification. Specifically, we are removing one element from the current requirements: the need to specify the number of affected employees in each job category. Employers will continue to receive essential information, including the overall number of employees affected, the categories they belong to, and the workplaces concerned. This strikes a sensible balance between reducing bureaucracy and enabling employers to plan to mitigate the impacts of industrial action.

Clause 71 also reduces the notice period for industrial action from 14 days to 10 and, consequently, Section 8 of the 2016 Act will be repealed. Moving from a 14-day notice period to a 10-day notice period provides a more flexible, workable approach that reflects modern industrial relations practice.

We acknowledge that some groups argued for a return to the previous seven-day notice period, and that others have called for the current 14-day period to be retained. In our view, 10 days represents a balanced compromise. It is the appropriate balance in allowing employers the ability to plan to mitigate the impact of and reduce the disruption and knock-on impacts of strikes, while respecting the right to strike. It reflects consultation feedback, and allows employers time to prepare, while reducing the burden and uncertainty faced by trade unions. Taken together, these reforms simplify the industrial action framework and reduce unnecessary burdens and legal risk for trade unions.

Finally, Clause 72—

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

Before the Minister sits down, I particularly focused on the NHS. I was not trying to see it as a sector—I was thinking of the categories and the number by category. I appreciate it is late, so if the Minister wants to write to me, I would be happy to receive that.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

For the sake of brevity and time and all of us staying awake, I will undertake to write to the noble Baroness.

Finally, Clause 72 seeks to reverse the effect of Section 10 of the 2016 Act, removing the requirement under Section 220A of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 for trade unions to appoint a picket supervisor and to meet other administrative burdens in relation to this supervisor, such as taking reasonable steps to provide their name to the police.

As the period of disruption that I have already referred to between 2022 and 2024 has shown, administrative requirements and bureaucratic hurdles only make it more difficult for trade unions to engage in good-faith negotiations with employers. These changes will bring trade union law into the 21st century and fix the foundations for industrial relations that have not delivered for workers, employers or unions.

However, the Government recognise that regulations regarding picket lines are important. To be clear, the Bill is repealing only those measures introduced by the 2016 Act in relation to the role of a picket supervisor. Other legislation and an amended code of practice on picketing will remain in place. Picketing must take place at a lawful location and must be peaceful, and those on picket lines must not intimidate or harass workers who choose to attend work. We are returning the law on picketing to what it was prior to 2016, when it was working well and was understood by all parties.

In summing up, I hope my justification for these clauses and how they meet the Government’s intentions has been clear to noble Lords, and I ask the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport, to withdraw Amendment 244.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 16th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, Amendments 247, 248 and 250 would introduce further requirements in relation to trade union ballots, particularly concerning the risk of intimidation, the use of workplace locations and the information that unions must provide to members. While the intention to ensure that ballots are conducted fairly without pressure is understandable, I question whether these proposals are justified. They appear to introduce new procedural barriers for trade unions, with little evidence that safeguards are failing. There is a broader concern that measures of this kind may tilt the balance even further against workers attempting to organise and exercise their rights. I would be grateful if the Minister could set out whether these amendments are proportionate and necessary, and how they align with the broader approach to employment and industrial relations.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, for introducing these amendments tabled by his noble friend Lord Sharpe of Epsom. I thought that, with the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, we were starting the history lessons a little early today—early in terms of this being the first group and in going back to the 1830s. I bend to no one in enjoying anecdotes about the Tolpuddle Martyrs, so I thank the noble Lord for his contribution, although I am not sure what it added to the debate.

Amendment 247, although well intentioned, is unnecessary. We all share the concerns outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, about interference in balloting around industrial action. We understand that no worker takes a decision about voting for industrial action lightly—whether it is strike action or action short of a strike—and that they understand the consequences, because if action is voted for, they will be the ones who suffer directly by losing pay. We must ensure that when we talk about this, we talk about both sides of the ledger.

The amendment is well intentioned, but it is unnecessary, because Section 230 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 already requires that every person entitled to vote in an industrial action ballot must be allowed to do so without union interference. Furthermore, recognition and de-recognition ballots under Schedule A1 are already subject to provisions prohibiting unfair practices whereby the Central Arbitration Committee can order that a ballot is re-run if an unfair practice claim is found to be well founded. To introduce a new voting method to statutory trade union ballots using Section 54 of the Employment Relations Act 2004, the Government must already consider that the new method would allow the ballot to meet the requirements under Section 54(12). Specifically, the Government must consider that those entitled to vote have an opportunity to do so, that votes are cast in secret and that the risk of any unfairness or malpractice is minimised. Therefore, safeguards are already provided for in Section 54(12)(c) that cover intimidation if it takes place in the workplace or elsewhere. The noble Lord’s amendment is therefore not required.

I thank my noble friend Lady O’Grady of Upper Holloway for reminding us of the outcome of the inquiry by Bruce Carr QC, as he was then, about the absence of intimidation within workplaces. It is important that we bear this in mind. The question was asked. It was tested by independent opinion and the proposition that underlies the spirit of these amendments was found to be wanting.

Amendment 248, also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, would prevent the Secretary of State using the power in Section 54 to allow workplace balloting as a new means of voting in trade union ballots and elections. Unfortunately, the amendment fails to take into account the fact that workplace balloting is already an option for statutory trade union recognition and derecognition ballots. The existing legislation permits workplace ballots conducted by independent scrutineers appointed by the CAC. One wonders why this is deemed acceptable by the Front Bench opposite but other sorts of workplace balloting are not.

Furthermore, as I said earlier, any new voting methods introduced under Section 54 of the Employment Relations Act 2004 must enable a ballot to meet the requirements of Section 54(12). The Government are committed to updating our industrial relations framework and aligning it with modern working practices and technology. This includes allowing for modern and secure balloting for statutory trade union ballots.

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Amendment 288 calls for an impact assessment within 12 months of the Bill’s passage, which is not just sensible; it is, surely, essential. If we are serious about evidence-based policy-making, we must have mechanisms to measure what actually happens on the ground. The noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, just made the point that we still do not really understand the statistics that are currently being reported. We cannot afford to legislate blindly in sectors as economically and culturally significant as these. I am very much looking forward to hearing what the Minister has to say in response to these amendments, and I urge him to note the cross-party unanimity on this subject.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Freyberg and Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, for tabling their amendments, all concerning the creative and cultural sectors. I am pleased to be having this debate on how this important sector is being supported by the Government and how workers within the sector will benefit from the Bill. I pay tribute particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, for his excellent and long-standing work in this area. I think it is fair to say that he is a creative inspiration to us all in his endeavours to support this very important sector.

The Government share this passion and certainly understand the importance of this sector. I draw attention to the significant work that we are already doing to support it. These sectors—creative and cultural—are a vital source of growth. Creative industries are estimated to have contributed £124 billion in 2023, accounting for 5.2% of UK gross value added, and the cultural sector is estimated to have contributed some further £35 billion in the same year, accounting for 1.5% of UK GVA.

The creative industries and cultural sectors are a distinct part of the wider UK workforce, as the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, explained. They have a significantly higher proportion of self-employed individuals, reflecting the sector’s entrepreneurial and freelance nature. In the latest published data, as of 2023 there were 2.4 million filled jobs in the creative industries and 666,000 filled jobs in the cultural sector. Of these jobs, nearly half, 49.6% in the cultural sector, were self-employed, and 27.9% in the creative industries, compared with 14.5% of UK jobs overall. This flexibility not only drives innovation but supports the more project-driven nature of the creative industries. However, we also know that freelancers’ creative careers, despite offering a more flexible and autonomous way of working, are often precarious and come with lower job security; many speakers in this debate spoke to that fact. I highlight the contribution made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, setting out the precarious nature of working in this sector.

I turn specifically to Amendment 259 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg. Through the Bill we are introducing the school support staff negotiating body and introducing a framework for negotiating bodies in the social care sector to help tackle recruitment and retention issues there. The Government recognise that other sectors, such as the arts and culture sector, may well benefit from more formal frameworks for collective bargaining, and we intend to consider other sectors in due course. In the meantime, we want to encourage collective bargaining at the local level in these sectors. It is the Government’s intention that we should learn the lessons from this process in the social care sector first, before considering where it may be appropriate to introduce similar frameworks in other sectors.

I am struck at this point by the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough. As he said, while the focus of these amendments is to discuss the nature of freelancing in the creative and cultural sectors, freelancers are self-employed but of course there are self-employed workers in many other sectors beyond. It is not a simple thing to analyse, that is for sure.

Regarding Amendments 284 and 288, also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, regarding impact assessments, as your Lordships’ Committee will be aware, we have already published a comprehensive set of impact assessments. This analysis is based on the best available evidence on the sectors likely to be affected by these measures, including the arts, entertainment and recreation industries. We recognise the importance of ensuring that the impacts of these policies on workers, businesses and the economy are considered, and that analysis is published outlining this. That is in section 17 of the summary impact assessment, which assesses the impact on all different sectors, including the creative industries. We already intend to publish further analysis, in the form of both an enactment impact assessment when the Bill secures Royal Assent and further assessments when we consult on proposed regulations to meet our better regulation requirements. We are also committed to consulting with businesses and workers ahead of setting out secondary legislation, including the sector mentioned in the amendment.

On Amendments 285 and 331 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, we recognise the importance of preserving and supporting the financial sustainability of cultural organisations, including small and independent cultural organisations. However, we want to avoid uncertainty or even unintended negative consequences for cultural workers. We welcome views on the ways that cultural organisations experiencing financial hardship can be supported, including the types of advice that they may require on employment practices. More generally, the Government will continue to work with the creative and cultural sector to understand how this legislation can work with it in its context, while strengthening legal protections for employers. But again, this must not lead to uncertainty or negative consequences for the workforce, which we believe staged implementation, for example, would create. I think the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, will know that both DBT and DCMS have been engaging with sector organisations, including UK Theatre, to have productive conversations to support this sector in understanding and adapting to the new legislation, while considering what additional support we could give to this sector in particular.

Finally, I address Amendments 286 and 287 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and Amendments 301 and 302 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, regarding freelancers. Freelancers may benefit from the reforms to trade union legislation and improvements in the enforcement system, including the regulation of umbrella companies. We have also committed to additional measures to strengthen protections for the self-employed. The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, rightly raised issues facing those who are self-employed, such as action to tackle late payments. We have already announced a package of measures to tackle late payments to small businesses and the self-employed, including a new fair payment code, upcoming legislation requiring large companies to include payment performance in their annual reports and an upcoming consultation on potential measures to go further. Other measures to strengthen protections for the self-employed include the right to a written contract, an extension of health and safety, and blacklisting protections.

On health and safety, my noble friend Lady Caine of Kentish Town raised the honourable campaigning work of the Mark Milsome Foundation, in a speech that showed both passion and insight in this area. It is essential that employers in the creative industries do not use—or rather, abuse—the multifarious employment statuses of those working in the sector to evade their responsibilities, particularly when it comes to health and safety. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, said, it can indeed be a matter of life and death.

I am pleased that my noble friend Lady Caine acknowledges that this Bill may not be the most appropriate vehicle for the changes that she wishes to secure and that secondary legislation or amendments to the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act would perhaps be more appropriate. However, I am happy to take this back to colleagues in DBT and DCMS.

As has been noted, the creative industries have a high proportion of freelance workers, who are crucial to the sector’s success. To respond to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and others, the sector is working to address the recommendations of the Good Work Review, a deep dive into the working practices in the creative industries, which highlighted freelancers’ job quality as a particular concern. My colleagues in the Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport are working with industry to understand government’s role in any solutions that are developed. I and my DCMS colleagues will be happy to continue discussing how best to support freelancers, and the creative industries more widely. It is with this in mind, and the Government’s unwavering support for the creative industries, performing arts and entertainment sectors, that I ask the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, to withdraw Amendment 259.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has noticed the strength of feeling across the House in terms of support for some of the freelance amendments. I very much appreciate what the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, said earlier. However, across the Benches there is very strong support for further protection for freelancers. Will one of the options in the Good Work Review, which the Minister referred to, be the appointment of a freelance commissioner—with all the other aspects that I have mentioned in terms of definition and duties?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I was certainly happy to reflect that there was cross-party agreement on this. I am unable to recall the exact terms of the Good Work Review here, so I undertake to write to the noble Lord with some more detail if that is acceptable.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

Perhaps the Minister could add another bell or whistle to what he has just said. Will he undertake to meet those with a strong interest in the protection of freelancers on a cross-party basis, to have discussions, before Report?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I am always happy to meet with noble Lords on these important matters.

[Lord Freyberg (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very helpful answer and all noble Lords who have taken part in today’s very interesting and in-depth discussion that I think we have all valued and benefited from.

I will make a couple of observations. The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, made a very powerful point about the lack of government representation from freelancers when he said there was not then and there is not now any clear channel between freelancers and government. I do agree with the points made by many noble Lords about this. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, talked about having a freelance commissioner for advocacy and driving change. We need more work on this, because it is not clear that freelancers are getting the type of direction that the Government need to give on this.

I was struck by the very powerful speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Caine, on the concerns about health and safety in the film industry. Again, a freelance commissioner would be able to look at this in more detail and drive that through. There does not seem to be the same powerful advocate without that, so I hope the Minister will consider how to strengthen that. The noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, made a powerful speech about the number of freelancers who are going to come into this area; therefore, not to have them represented in this Bill is an oversight.

When I was anticipating what the Minister would say, I had various things down: asking for a carve-out, asking for special treatment for one sector, phased implementation is a slippery slope, oversight already exists through Arts Council England and DCMS, there is not enough evidence to justify these changes and we already have a Minister for Culture. However, as others have rightly said, this is not about a carve-out or an exemption, it is about adaption. The creative workforce is structurally different, highly freelance, project-based and often dependent on public and charitable funding. Our amendments aim to ensure that employment rights can be applied fairly and effectively in this context.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Katz]

That the House do now resume.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the House resumes. We will then move on to consider two Foreign Office Statements taken in the other place. In recognition that the Statements have been combined, the usual channels have agreed that the usual time for consideration be extended by 20 minutes, with 40 minutes for Back-Bench questions in total. We will therefore not return to the Employment Rights Bill before 8.38 pm.

Motion agreed.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th June 2025 Lords Chamber

I would be grateful if the Minister would clarify the following points. Do the Government intend to publish a detailed implementation plan and, if so, when? Will there be an opportunity for Parliament to formally scrutinise that plan before the agency becomes operational? Do the Government anticipate a separate consultation on how the new powers will be exercised in practice? These are important questions not just for Parliament but for businesses, workers and enforcement bodies that will need to work with that agency and develop a strategy in a live environment. A stronger enforcement body is undoubtedly needed, but it needs to be under- pinned by clarity, accountability and proper scrutiny. My noble friend Lord Fox’s amendments offer a thoughtful and proportional framework to achieve that, and I commend them to the Committee.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe of Epsom and—in absentia—Lord Fox, for tabling Amendments 271ZZA, 274, 277, 278 and 328. Before I go any further, I think we all join the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, certainly from our Benches, in wishing the noble Lord, Lord Fox, the very best and speediest of recoveries. We hope to see him back in his place at the earliest opportunity.

I will speak first to Amendment 271ZZA moved by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom. This amendment is unnecessary, as Clause 91(3) provides full discretion for the Secretary of State to revise the labour market enforcement strategy at any time, including following a general election. That means that a new Government are not locked in. They can act swiftly, decisively and in line with their mandate. Were the party opposite to win power again sometime in the distant future, however difficult that is to imagine, its hands would not be tied by these proposals.

Of course, businesses, workers and enforcement bodies all benefit from clarity, consistency and strategic continuity. Automatically scrapping an enforcement strategy, just as the Government are finding their feet, risks creating exactly the kind of disruption we should be avoiding. To reassure the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, the Bill is about strengthening our ability to tackle non-compliance and exploitation in the labour market, including, in the very worst cases, the scourge of modern slavery. The intention and mandate of the fair work agency are to catch the bad actors, not to trip up the good guys. This amendment risks instability rather than accountability.

Turning to Amendments 274, 277, 278 and 328 tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe of Epsom and Lord Fox, I want to be absolutely clear that the Government are committed to effective, transparent enforcement of workers’ rights. The creation of the fair work agency is a major step forward and we want to get it right, but these amendments are wholly unnecessary, duplicating myriad reports and recommendations over several years. By our count, there have been 33 government reports and strategies about the effectiveness of labour market enforcement over the past nine years. One could argue that this subject has been reported and scrutinised to death. The Director of Labour Market Enforcement produces an annual report and strategy that reviews the effectiveness of the labour market enforcement system. These documents are available in the Library of the House.

Additionally, our impact assessment for establishing the fair work agency sets out the current running costs of the enforcement bodies and initial estimates of set-up costs for the agency. I also refer noble Lords to reviews published by previous Administrations, including the Taylor review, which assessed the labour market enforcement system and found it wanting.

Ongoing oversight of employment rights enforcement is provided for in Clauses 91 and 92. They require the Secretary of State to publish a three-year labour market enforcement strategy and annual reports, which must be laid before Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly. To address the question of the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, they will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny in the usual way, which could well involve scrutiny by a Select Committee in the other place.

While the Bill does not explicitly require that the enforcement strategy and annual report address the agency’s funding, I can confirm to the Committee—and to the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, in particular—that the annual report will indeed include an assessment of the fair work agency’s budget and how this has been spent.

Turning to Amendment 328, establishing the fair work agency is not and should not be contingent on its reporting. I remind all noble Lords, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, that this was not only a Labour Party manifesto commitment; it was the policy of all the major parties at the general election to introduce a single enforcement body in some shape or form.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

Just because one side of the House or the other—or, indeed, both—brought it in does not necessarily mean it is the right policy. Does the Minister not agree that, if we have a chance to review some of the weaknesses in inherited policy, it is a very good time to do it? The 2017 Taylor review, on which some of the then Government’s policy was based, focused particularly on the most vulnerable workers and certain categories. It was not a very wide focus.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

We have had a fair amount of scrutiny of the wider proposal, rather than the Bill’s specific fair work agency proposals. As I said, over the past nine years since 2016, there have been 33 different strategies and reports, including—but certainly not limited to—the Taylor report. This is not an area that has not been considered and scrutinised to some degree. I also say to the noble Baroness that the Single Enforcement Body—as it was called by the previous Administration—was the policy of successive Conservative- led and Conservative Administrations. I am not going to intrude on the great policy disagreements on that side of the House. We feel it important to establish the fair work agency and to ensure that we have strong enforcement of labour market regulations. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw Amendment 271ZZA.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a very significant debate, because I believe it is the first time I have heard from the Government Front Bench an acceptance that the Opposition will eventually take over government again. He and I may disagree on when this will happen—of course we disagree: I just happen to believe that it is going to happen at the next general election. That is why these amendments are so important.

I also want to say how much we miss the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I was very disturbed indeed to hear about his unfortunate accident, but I am very pleased to hear that he may shortly be with us. I hope that, by speeding up the process to Report in July, he will still be able to be with us, because he has always brought a note of common sense—despite coming from the Liberal Democrat Benches. Now I am upsetting everyone. All I want to say to the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport, is that he has been a marvellous substitute, if one can say that. His pragmatic approach to the Bill has been enormously valuable, but we do miss the noble Lord, Lord Fox.

I thank my noble friend Lady Lawlor, who is quite right: we are moving into unknown territory. Although the Minister might remind us that the Conservative Government were committed to looking at stepping in this direction, we are still moving into unknown territory and, as my noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough pointed out, the CIPD cost estimates are really worrying. I do not think the Minister properly addressed his key question on the whole issue of accountability.

However, here we are. I am surprised that the Government have rejected Amendment 271ZZA. It is a reasonable and pragmatic amendment that simply recognises the basic democratic principle that a new Administration should have the ability to review and, if necessary, revise a labour market enforcement strategy to reflect new economic realities and public priorities. Despite the amendment to which he referred—which is at the margin—the Government have always insisted that a labour market enforcement strategy must run its full term without reset, regardless of elections or changes in government. But why should a new Government be bound by a strategic direction set by their predecessor? That is not consistent with the democratic mandate bestowed on any incoming Government. Surely it is neither logical nor democratic to compel a newly elected Government to implement a strategy they did not design, especially in a labour market that is dynamic and constantly evolving.

Economic landscapes can shift dramatically within short periods, whether due to international events, technological change or domestic challenges. Flexibility to adjust enforcement priorities accordingly is essential. It is not only a question of governance, but of ensuring that enforcement remains effective and responsive to current labour market conditions. The Government have already recognised the importance of periodic review and the resetting of the labour market enforcement strategy every three years, as set out in Clause 91. If I am not mistaken, that periodicity is built into the framework precisely to ensure that the strategy remains relevant and responsive.

The main feature of this debate has been the cogent arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport. His insights, and those of my noble friend Lady Coffey, highlight the pressing need for a substantive independent review of the proposed fair work agency. While the promise of increased efficiency in enforcement is welcome, we must remember that there are intentions and then there are results. We must understand how such efficiency will be achieved and at what cost, what other alternatives were considered, and why they were rejected.

To date, the Government have not committed to publishing any specific details about the establishment of the fair work agency—details that are crucial for proper scrutiny. We lack clarity on the expected costs of this new body, the standards by which compliance will be measured and the criteria that will guide enforcement decisions. Without that transparency, it is difficult to assess whether the creation of this body will represent genuine progress or simply add another layer of bureaucracy, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport, stressed, will impinge on smaller businesses in particular.

There remains much to discuss and questions to be answered about the fair work agency. Unfortunately, I find myself unconvinced by the Government’s arguments against the amendments proposed by myself and the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport. Our proposals are not about obstruction but about ensuring proper oversight, accountability and flexibility in this important area of labour market governance. I am sure that we, and the Liberal Democrats, will return to these issues on Report, but for now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, I support the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Sharpe. I declare an interest as a director of a very small business—a think tank.

As an employer, the idea that we have no warrant or judicial oversight of an enforcement officer’s intrusive visit to a business to seize or take copies of documents and to check up is intrusive on the time and output of the business. It is also an infringement of a business freedom to conduct the business to the best ability of those in the office or the business.

Both clauses in fact contain very intrusive proposals. As my noble friend pointed out, one of the things that is deeply worrying about them is we do not know who the enforcement officers will be or exactly what their powers will be. We have seen, even with the best trained police force in the world, the Metropolitan Police and local police forces, a certain amount of over-zealousness in pursuing certain types of crime. Therefore, with an untrained and unknown quantity and with such powers, we need very clear limitations, and we need to focus on the most serious crimes and those outlined in these amendments. For those reasons, I support both the amendments in the name of my noble friend.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, for tabling amendments relating to the fair work agency’s powers. Clause 94 introduces a single power to enter business premises and inspect workplaces. The noble Lord’s Amendment 271ZB would limit this power to such an extent that effective enforcement of the legislation, including the national minimum wage, would be extremely difficult. We are not amalgamating labour market enforcement into one single agency to diminish its effectiveness. This amendment would, in effect, prohibit the site visits that most minimum wage investigations rely on and bring an end to a system of state enforcement that has worked well for 25 years. The result would likely be an increase in claims to the employment tribunal. Given the noble Lord’s concern about employment tribunal capacity, I urge him to withdraw his amendment.

I turn to Amendment 271ZBA. While powers of entry are generally exercised on a consensual basis, in some situations it is critical that officers are able to carry out their duties quickly, particularly if they suspect that giving advance notice could give rogue employers time to destroy or tamper with evidence. None the less, in response to the concerns raised by both the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, an officer will not enter a premises if a person is not present but will instead notify the person to rearrange a time to enter the premises. As the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, mentioned, a warrant could be issued by a justice only if they are satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for entry, and judicial oversight ensures that warrants are granted only when appropriate, protecting businesses from unwarranted inspections while enabling legitimate investigations.

Clause 128 and Schedule 8 were added to the Bill to put in place appropriate safeguards relating to the execution of warrants. As I said, this approach will continue under Part 5 of the Bill, but with additional safeguards, such as needing a warrant before exercising powers to enter a dwelling. Extending this warrant requirement further to include all business premises would be a disproportionate and retrograde step in enforcement terms. It would introduce additional powers and bureaucracy, and create an unnecessary burden on the warrant system.

Amendment 271ZD is unnecessary. There are already extensive safeguards in the Bill around the use of investigatory and enforcement powers. These safeguards are designed to ensure that the use of enforcement powers is lawful and proportionate. In addition, enforcement officers are highly trained and carry out investigations under a strict code of conduct.

Clause 107 largely carries over the existing appeal grounds from the notice of underpayment regime contained in the National Minimum Wage Act 1998, which, as I said, has been functioning successfully for over 25 years. In fact, I recall debates in previous days of Committee around the effectiveness of minimum wage enforcement and the fact that not enough rogue employers have been named and shamed. The process as it stands is well known and understood by businesses and individuals. Changes risk adding confusion and uncertainty, leading to additional complexity and litigation.

Amendment 273LA would constitute a drastic downgrade in labour exploitation enforcement. The Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority can and must occasionally use force under PACE powers to rescue victims of modern slavery and tackle serious labour exploitation. Indeed, it is through the use of those powers that we saw two modern slavery convictions and 13 slavery and trafficking risk and prevention orders in the last reporting year of 2023-24. To reassure the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, as is currently the case, the use of PACE powers will be strictly limited to a small number of officers, as set out in their letters of appointment, and subject to stringent IOPC oversight functions and complaints and misconduct procedures.

I am sure the whole Committee will agree that we must tackle the scourge of modern slavery. The Bill is designed to strengthen employment rights in a clear, coherent and enforceable way. Unnecessary additions or alterations, however well-meaning, could compromise that aim. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Carter of Haslemere (CB)]

My Lords, I think the Minister explained that the reasons against requiring a warrant to be issued by a magistrate included the fact that an employer might destroy documents that were the purpose of the need to enter the premises. In those circumstances, why could the clause not say that, if the enforcement officer can show the magistrate reasonable cause to have concerns about the destruction of a document, they could apply on an ex parte basis for the search warrant? That would mean there would not be that risk of the destruction of documents in advance.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises an interesting point, though I fear straying into legal territory, which I am not adequately briefed to comment on. I will write to him with further detail on the specific example he set out.

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I hope the Minister will recognise the strength of the points made by my noble friends. There is always a case for helping people who are in difficult positions, but we need to make sure that any assistance is fairer, clearer and precisely targeted. We now await with great interest the noble Baroness’s response.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I do not want to disappoint the noble Lord, but I am afraid he is stuck with me again. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, for tabling amendments on legal assistance and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for notifying us of her opposition to Clause 114 standing part of the Bill.

I will start with Amendment 272BA. To be fair, the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, and others indicated that this has overlapped with not only previous discussions today but discussions of groups on previous days in Committee. As my noble friend Lady Jones said on Monday, the drafting of Clause 114

“was carefully thought through and is deliberately broad and inclusive”.—[Official Report, 16/6/25; col. 1883.]

It is only fair that it covers not just employees but employers and trade unions. To answer a specific question from the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, about what other assistance could be provided, this could include help in understanding procedural requirements, preparing documents or accessing expert input. It is designed to be flexible and responsive to individual needs. Given this, we cannot support Amendment 272BA.

Amendment 272D would restrict the amount of support that could be offered to any individual through this power. It is not a reasonable measure. I understand that it is a probing amendment, as the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, said, but the small amount proposed in the amendment would leave the power meaningless. As we have discussed, this would be, although it is not intended as such, tantamount to a wrecking proposal, because it is such a small amount. Obviously, as we have discussed, this is a manifesto commitment. The fair work agency should be able to decide how much support it can offer, without being constrained to random financial limits for no good reason.

Amendment 272E would create an additional process before the power can be used. Part 5 of the Bill already calls for the fair work agency to publish an annual strategy, as we discussed on an earlier group. Requiring yet another administrative document in this way would be burdensome and unnecessary, and I think we share across the Committee a desire to reduce bloated bureaucracy—a phrase that has already been used this afternoon.

Turning to Amendment 272F, the powers under Clause 114 will operate in tandem with those in Clause 113, but workers will not always want to be separately represented in proceedings brought by the fair work agency. They can be represented, but they do not have to be. Therefore, we cannot support this amendment.

Amendment 272G would mean that the fair work agency would duplicate ACAS’s existing responsibilities regarding dispute resolution. This power is not intended to be a replacement or a duplication of existing support. We cannot support this amendment, as it would complicate the enforcement landscape when we are trying with this Bill to simplify it.

Amendment 272H would limit the scope of this power. It would create situations where legal assistance would have to cease, even if proceedings continued, leading to unfairness. It could lead to people being unable to continue their cases, which could cover other matters such as discrimination, because support could no longer be offered. The fair work agency should be able to decide what is appropriate and fair in each case.

Amendment 272I would put an unnecessary burden on the Secretary of State to have insurance in place before being able to provide advice on a settlement agreement. To be fair to the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, she sort of indicated uncertainty around this. To be clear, this amendment wholly contradicts established government practice. I refer her to paragraph 4.4 of Managing Public Money, which sets out that the Government should generally not take out commercial insurance and it is not good value for money.

To summarise on Clause 114, the legal system can be intimidating, particularly for vulnerable workers or those from marginalised backgrounds. To repeat what my noble friend Lady Jones said in the previous group, many vulnerable workers are reluctant or unable to bring their cases to tribunal to enforce their employment rights, and this has serious consequences. Rogue employers exploit this, breaking employment law, and get away with it. For instance, Citizens Advice suggests that high-paid workers are more likely to file a case with an employment tribunal than lower-paid individuals, despite the latter being more likely to have their rights infringed. As I said, this lets rogue employers off the hook, and that is unfair for the vast majority of businesses, which we all know do the right thing by their staff and want to. It is unfair for the vulnerable workers involved—to state the obvious—who are being denied their rights, and it is unfair for the rest of the workforce, who are denied work opportunities due to illegal practices undercutting them.

As was said in the last group, that is why, in the plan to make work pay—again, a manifesto commitment—we set out that the fair work agency will have powers to bring civil proceedings to uphold employment rights. The Bill will give the fair work agency the power to bring civil proceedings in the employment tribunal to uphold rights. This is a critical power, particularly for situations where a worker feels unable to bring proceedings themselves. But there are occasions where a person is able to bring proceedings in the tribunal or another court but needs assistance, or where the case has wider ramifications and the person concerned could benefit from the fair work agency’s expertise.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister remind us to what extent there has been consultation with the Secretary of State for Justice? Has the Lord Chancellor been involved in putting together this scheme, which is going to sit alongside legal aid, for which she is responsible? It would be really helpful if the Minister could make sure that the Government is joined-up in putting forward what is, in a way, as my noble friends have pointed out, quite a blank cheque, which has not properly been costed. Can he put us right on all this, please?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I am more than happy to. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, anticipates the comments that I was just about to come to—but we can address the point now. The noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, focused on this as well. This is not expanding legal aid. The power is intended to give the fair work agency a discretion to provide support in employment-related cases. It is not an alternative to legal aid and it will be used in specific cases. The Government will set out how and when the fair work agency will exercise its power in due course and will discuss this with a range of stakeholders. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, we have regular conversations with the Ministry of Justice, including on the Bill’s implementation.

I return to what I was saying about the importance of ensuring that the power of legal advice is appropriately bounded. It cannot be used to fund dispute resolution facilities delivered through other routes. Importantly, the clause protects the integrity of the courts and tribunals by confirming that nothing in the clause overrides existing restrictions on representation imposed by legislation or judicial practice. This clause complements the fair work agency’s wider role in promoting access to justice and fair treatment in the workplace. It provides a vital lever for supporting individuals who might otherwise face legal barriers alone or for ensuring compliance with relevant law, and it delivers our manifesto commitment on which Members in the other House were elected.

The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, asked about the costs. These will be set out in due course and will be discussed with a range of stakeholders, particularly employers, trade unions and employees.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

That was a rather surprising statement. Is the Minister saying that these costs are not included in the estimates that have already been given for the costs of the fair work agency, which were included in the various documents surrounding the Bill? He has just implied that it will be done later. It is rather extraordinary to produce a clause in a Bill without having a costing for it. Can I press him again on what the costs are, whether they are included in the existing estimates of costs for the fair work agency and, if not, when they will actually be made clear?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that intervention. The costs are not factored in. As I said, they will be set out in due course, following discussions with a range of stakeholders. I hope that this has persuaded the noble Baroness that Clause 114 should stand part of the Bill.

I turn finally to the amendments on recovering costs for legal assistance. Regarding Amendment 272J, if an individual has received free legal assistance from the fair work agency, any cost award should be returned to where that assistance came from. To be clear, a cost award is separate from any other awards a tribunal may make in favour of an individual. This amendment will prevent the fair work agency recovering costs and could lead to situations whereby individuals receiving legal assistance could receive money for costs they had not incurred. I hope noble Lords will agree that this is completely unreasonable.

On Amendments 272K and 272L, removing the ability to provide for the appointment and expenditure incurred is unreasonable and could lead to uncertainty about what expenditure of the Secretary of State is recoverable. In addition, while Amendment 272L looks consequential to Amendment 272K, it would actually remove the requirement for regulations under Clause 115(5) to be subject to any parliamentary procedure. I am sure that this is not the intention of the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey. Needless to say, we oppose removing requirements of parliamentary procedures in this way.

In response to noble Baroness’s question on why the regulation for Clause 115(5) is negative, this follows precedent from the Equality Act. I indeed note and point out to the noble Baroness that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has raised no concerns with the Government about this power.

The legal assistance powers within the Bill are necessary to deliver our manifesto commitment to strengthen enforcement and improve outcomes for workers through a fairer, more acceptable system. These amendments would hamper that goal and might even unintentionally limit access to justice. The current drafting has been carefully considered. It is both deliberate and necessary. I therefore ask the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, to withdraw Amendment 272BA.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

In the case of the noble Lord’s response to this group of amendments, and the response to the previous group of amendments by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, the Ministers have claimed that these clauses are covered by manifesto commitments. The Labour Party manifesto is not something I carry around in my handbag, but, from memory, I do not think it covered these particular clauses. What makes me so sure that this is the case is that these two clauses were introduced in the other place on Report. They were not part of the original Bill that was introduced. That means, inter alia, that they received no substantive examination or discussion whatever in the other place. More importantly, this suggests to me that they were not a part of the original package that can claim manifesto support. I think we will want to examine that extremely carefully. If the Minister has a response now, with a chapter and verse in the manifesto, I will be happy to look it up afterwards, but I think we find unconvincing this part of the Government’s defence of these clauses.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I do not have chapter and verse but a page number. Noble Lords can find it on page 16 of the Labour’s Plan to Make Work Pay document, which was part of our manifesto.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

I must press the Minister. I have looked at the Labour’s Plan to Make Work Pay document and it does not make reference to de facto legal aid. It says:

“We will also consider measures to provide accessible and authoritative information for people on their employment status and what rights they are owed, tackling instances where some employers can use complexity to avoid legal obligations”.


That is very different to what the Minister has outlined to your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I do not want to extend the debate too much or do too much quoting across the Dispatch Box but, to counter that, Labour’s Plan to Make Work Pay talks about establishing a single enforcement body that

“will have the powers it needs to undertake targeted and proactive enforcement work and bring civil proceedings upholding employment rights”.

To a fair-minded person that is pretty clear.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, this has been an exceptionally revealing debate on this group of amendments and the clause more broadly. I somewhat agree with the Minister on creating the ability to initiate legal proceedings—which, by the way, continues some of the work already being done by the existing authorities—but the Bill does not refer to being able to do that without the consent of the worker, which will surprise a lot of people, and absolutely does not make reference to the level of financing, which we have just discussed in relation to Clause 114.

Another point I noted is that, on Monday, the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, referred to “employees and employers”, but the Minister at the Dispatch Box today has been very clear that this is also about funding trade unions. As I said, this has been a revealing debate and one that, after I discuss it with my Front Bench, we may explore further on Report. With that, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for tabling Amendments 279ZA and 279ZB and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for her Amendment 273PA. I reflect that on an earlier group we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough—whom I am glad to see now in his place—with his Amendment 273PB, so we have seen two ends of the spectrum in terms of an approach to information sharing and enforcement with modern slavery. One might speculate that perhaps we have, in a Goldilocks way, achieved the right balance with what we are proposing in the Bill. I hope noble Lords agree.

Turning to Amendment 279ZA and 279ZB, I understand that these are probing amendments and the noble Lord is seeking reassurances that the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority’s vital work tackling labour abuse will continue under the fair work agency. Let me provide that reassurance very clearly now. Action on labour abuse and modern slavery will be core and central to the mission of the new fair work agency. I am happy to join in the sentiment set out by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral. Modern slavery is a stain on our society as well as on our economy. We are determined as a Government to continue the work of previous Administrations in stamping it out. My noble friend Lady O’Grady of Upper Holloway set out very starkly for us why this continued exploitation needs our continued focus and vigilance.

All the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority’s functions, including in relation to labour abuse, will transfer to the Secretary of State. Its vital work in this area will continue. We are also committed to ensuring that there is no disruption as we set up the fair work agency. The fair work agency will continue to work in close partnership with Eleanor Lyons, the Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner, as the GLAA does now, to identify and disrupt patterns of exploitation across sectors such as agriculture, construction and adult social care. The Bill lays the foundation to build on that successful working relationship between the commissioner and the GLAA. Clause 132 and Schedule 9 together will enable the two-way sharing of information between them where this will help both fulfil their statutory functions. To address the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, the fair work agency will still have first responder status and a duty to notify.

Regarding Amendment 273PA in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, I appreciate the noble Baroness’s concerns but there is a need for information to be shared with the Home Office to help protect the public, including vulnerable migrants, from harm. The need for this was recognised by Parliament in the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999. Mechanisms already exist to support those of insecure immigration status who may be victims of abuse. The national referral mechanism is in place to ensure that individuals can be properly identified and supported, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. The NRM is a framework for identifying and referring potential victims of modern slavery and ensuring they receive the appropriate support. The online process allows first responders to submit an NRM referral through a single online form, regardless of their location in the UK or whether the victim is an adult or a child. This provides a structured and compassionate route for potential victims of modern slavery to receive help without fear of immediate immigration consequences.

I am concerned that creating a legislative blocker to information sharing could have unintended consequences and make it harder for the vulnerable individuals concerned to get the help that they need and deserve. My department will continue to work with the Home Office to ensure that we strike the right balance between protecting vulnerable workers and maintaining the integrity of our immigration system. I therefore ask the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to withdraw Amendment 273PA.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Grady. I was not surprised that she was able to produce that example; there are lots of examples.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, that there is data protection for a good reason. I cannot say that the current situation “breaches” it, as it is not illegal, but it does not observe that data protection.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is of course right about human rights abuse. He used the important term “safeguarding”. Obviously, I am disappointed with the response from the Minister—I will have a good read of it. I think we might be returning to this issue in the next Home Office Bill that is coming to us—the noble Lord, Lord Hanson, has not reacted.

With regard to my noble friend Lord Paddick’s amendments, I still do not follow quite how the assurances can be implemented. I ask the Minister—though perhaps I shall go back to Dame Sara Thornton and the Rights Lab to be sure that I have not got it wrong—to write to my noble friend and me explaining just how those assurances work their way through in the legislation, because to have just the assurances without a statutory underpinning seems not to be enough.

Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.