House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Lord Norton of Louth Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, at the age of 75, one would be too young even to be considered as a candidate member of the Chinese Politburo.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, I sometimes make the point that teaching students makes me realise that I am not that young but being in the House of Lords makes me realise that I am not that old.

My noble friend Lord Astor made an appropriate point when he referred to the problem of the size of the House. However, he then went on to refer to Members who sit, as if the two things were the same. I would distinguish between the two. There is a problem with numbers, but I do not think we should focus on those who sit—that is, those who turn up and contribute to the work of the House. We are trying to deal with it at the other end rather than through those who make an active contribution.

I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, about leading figures in the House who have been over 75. One could add the names of Lord Wilberforce and Lord Simon of Glaisdale among those who have influenced the House in a number of the decisions that it has taken. Without them, the statute book would have been much the worse. Focusing on age is to come up with the wrong solution to what my noble friend has identified as a real problem.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My noble friend makes an important point about the problem of those who do not attend as well as about those who do. However, there is a problem in both areas. Very often your Lordships’ House is overfull and some of us have to sit below the Bar, and that is quite unusual in my experience. We need to find a way of reducing the size of your Lordships’ House. Whether an age limit is the right way forward is a matter for your Lordships to consider. That, of course, would apply equally to those who do attend and those who do not. There are other ways, too, of dealing with the numbers, as several noble Lords have suggested. For example, you could have a ballot as you do for hereditary Peers, but I guess that that is not now very popular.

However, there are ways of doing it. Something has to be done and it is a pity that the Bill of my noble friend Lord Steel did not begin to address the problem.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, this is a very simple amendment, which I hope my noble friend will be able to accept. It says:

“A person who ceases to be a member of the House of Lords under section (Retirement age) shall not be disqualified from … voting at elections to the House of Commons, or … being, or being elected as, a Member of that House”.

I beg to move.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, I do not understand the amendment. It appears to be consequential on Amendment 128, which has just been withdrawn.

[The Earl of Caithness]

No, my Lords, it is not consequential on Amendment 128. I did not accept the groupings. I did not group Amendment 129 with Amendment 128 and I did not speak to it earlier. So I am moving it now and I am perfectly entitled to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, before my noble friend Lord Caithness withdraws his amendment it might be for the convenience of the House if I respond to the noble Lord, Lord Steel, to save me moving my Amendment 131 and thank him for his humane response to my suggestion, for which I am grateful.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

Before the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, responds, nobody has really picked up the point about rehabilitation. The clause does not prevent rehabilitation because it would be open for somebody who had been expelled from the House to be considered for a life peerage in the event of them doing good work and rehabilitating themselves. What the clause rules out is those who do not engage in rehabilitation.

[Lord Lyell]

I hesitate to intervene because my noble friend on the Front Bench is about to move on. He is trying to draw a distinction between a Private Member’s Bill and other legislation that passes through your Lordships’ House. Will he confirm with the authorities of the House what is different with the groupings and other procedures for a Private Member’s Bill as opposed to any other business in your Lordships’ House? I understand that the groupings are carried out with the agreement usually of both sets of authorities of the House but that it is open to each mover of each amendment not necessarily to agree and to insist on moving an amendment even though it may not be in accordance with the wishes of the Front Bench. Will my noble friend please explain why the usual arrangements might be different today because we are debating a Private Member’s Bill rather than any other procedures in your Lordships’ House?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Northbrook]

My Lords, I supported my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway’s referendum amendment to the House of Lords Bill in 1999. I thought that that was a major constitutional change and deserved to be put to the House. Sadly, that was not carried. I agree with my noble friend Lord Astor that this is not an appropriate measure for this particular Bill. I am glad to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that her party plans to have a referendum on this, which I would support.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, I merely note in respect of manifestos at the last election that the three main party manifestos said different things about the House of Lords. They were not all in agreement. My main point is in response to my noble friend Lord Caithness’s argument that this is a major constitutional change so should be subject to a referendum. If the Bill constitutes major constitutional change which should be subject to a referendum then we are perfectly entitled to regard it as stage 2 of Lords reform and his objection to getting rid of the by-election option completely falls.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the point I made was that it was because of getting rid of that. If the noble Lord takes out the removal of the hereditary Peers, then it is not stage 2 of Lords reform. The removal of the hereditary Peers, which breaks a crucial agreement, means that it becomes a major reform. It would be implementing the terms of the 1999 agreement. I have absolutely no doubt that we will talk about this a lot more in the future.

My noble friend Lord Cormack was absolutely right to say that many of your Lordships are concerned by the idea of an elected House, and not least the noble Lord, Lord Steel. He has expressed some serious concerns about having an elected House. I do not fear that. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Erroll. It is interesting that once again the hereditary Peers are more reforming than most other noble Lords. That takes me back to the days of my noble friend Lord Carrington, who in 1968 got the agreement of the basically hereditary House to change the way that we operated. That was turned round in the House of Commons. Had that proposal been agreed, I would not have been here for 40 years, nor would my noble friends Lord Selsdon and Lord Trefgarne. I would have missed it by one year and I am the third longest-serving Member of the House speaking today.

Clearly, this amendment does not receive any support at all. That surprises me. If we are allowed a referendum on a decision under the provisions of Article 31(3) of the Treaty on European Union, which permits the adoption of qualified majority, we ought to have a referendum on constitutional change. However, I agree with all those who have said that there must be a referendum on the Government’s Bill. I think I said that when we discussed it in your Lordships’ House. I am happy to withdraw the amendment.