Mike Weir
Main Page: Mike Weir (Scottish National Party - Angus)Postal Services Bill
Mike Weir Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Bob Russell
I endorse that. I, too, like many right hon. and hon. Members, visited my local sorting office. It is safe to say, without any contradiction, that morale is not high.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
I have listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman has said. The inter-business agreement is an agreement between post offices and Royal Mail about the use of post office services. I think the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) was referring to the headroom agreement, which relates to the “last mile”. That is a different thing and is not related to the agreement between the two arms of Post Office Ltd.
Bob Russell
I am grateful for that intervention because the thrust and purpose of my new clause is exactly to enable the new, privatised Royal Mail to ensure that business continues to go to the Post Office and our sub-post offices. There is a general perception of the Post Office and Royal Mail as being one organisation, and I acknowledge that I regard it in that way. I know that they operate as two separate business entities, but just as when British Telecom moved away from the Post Office, it takes time for people to come to terms with the fact that they are two different animals.
Mr Weir
Is that not the crux of the problem? The Post Office does a lot more than simply service the mail delivery system, and by privatising Royal Mail the Government are breaking that link. A Royal Mail focused primarily or solely on mail delivery will not need the other services offered by post offices.
Bob Russell
The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me, so I hope that if we go to a vote he and his colleagues will join me in the Aye Lobby.
We have the network and the operating company, Post Office Ltd, and post offices provide a vital service to communities around the UK, especially, but not only, in rural areas. As I have said, about 10 neighbourhood, suburban community post offices have already shut in my urban constituency.
Bob Russell
I was up early—true—but the new clause stands in my name, and I am sure that the Minister is aware of my thinking. I have not persuaded him so far, although I have been speaking for half an hour. I hoped that he might intervene to say that he accepts the argument and my new clause. Until such time as he does, I will keep going and hope I can win him over.
Mr Weir
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he has been very generous with interventions. He mentioned what the Minister said in Committee, but I can assure him that many of us who served on the Committee were not convinced by the Minister’s argument. It seems to me and to many others that the fundamental difference is that Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd are part of the same group and will obviously stick together, but when Royal Mail is privatised we will have a large Royal Mail company and a relatively small Post Office Ltd negotiating an agreement. Does the hon. Gentleman think that Post Office Ltd will come out well from such an agreement?
Bob Russell
I cannot comment on the body language in Committee because I was not there. I tabled the new clause, which, if passed, will deal with the hon. Gentleman’s fears. It is as simple as that.
The new clause would protect the post office network from the IBA’s possible erosion by a privatised Royal Mail. Ministers might feel differently, but we must ask ourselves why Royal Mail is being privatised. Indeed, successive Governments have argued the same points over the past 30 years.
Michael Connarty
I have no problem doing that. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has been in the House when I have spoken about the Post Office in the past. I am the organiser and secretary of the communications workers liaison group in this place. I have opposed every attempt by any Government to bring in schemes to downsize the post office network—every single one of them.
My Government was criticised by me and by the Communication Workers Union. That Government put in a director, Crozier, who walked off with millions of pounds in bonuses for sacking people—for downsizing the number of people at the sharp end and failing entirely to do the one thing that he was tasked to do, which was to bring in the technology to modernise the process of distribution and introduce letter-bundling by street, as is done in any sensible country. He failed and was paid millions of pounds. That sounds like what happened with the banks so it seems as though we did a lot of that under the previous Government.
I am happy to say that the Labour Government got it wrong, because they did get it wrong. I say to the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) that his party will be judged on how it acts in government, not on how he is acting from the liberal wing of the Liberal Democrats. The orange book Liberals have joined the Tories and will become Tories if they want to stand at the next election. They are sitting opposite me at this moment. They are the people who are destroying the post office network, just as the delusional people in my party cost us millions of votes by doing what is about to be carried to its final conclusion—that is, attacking the structure of our communities.
When a Crown office goes and a sub-post office is put into a sweet shop at the end of the high street, we see the change. We see people queuing outside in the rain because the shop is too small to handle the business. When a sub-post office is put into the back of a small supermarket, as one has in Bathgate, or into a sweet shop, as one has in Linlithgow in my constituency, people in wheelchairs cannot get into the post office when staff create a barrier as they stock the shelves with quick-sale goods. All that happened under our Government, and the measures proposed in the Bill will be worse than any of that.
Mr Weir
The hon. Gentleman is making a good point. He speaks of a post office being put into a sweet shop. Does that not underline the need for the agreement? There is much talk about post offices delivering government business. After the closure programme and the relocation to paper shops and sweet shops, how many post offices in his constituency will realistically be able to do such business immediately?
Michael Connarty
As I said, the new clause is intended to ameliorate the impact, not to negate it. I would prefer a permanent agreement that the Royal Mail and the Post Office would not be sundered by the Bill. It is an illusion that the market will allow things to become more efficient. I do not believe that.
Mr Binley
I accept that interjection and support that point, too, because I was one of those who consistently said that we should be proud of our Royal Mail work force. I am sure that my hon. Friend visits his local sorting offices, as the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk and I do. We visit our sorting offices and post offices regularly and we know the quality of people we are dealing with. I would be proud to have them in any organisation with which I was associated, so paying tribute to the work force at this stage has real value. I accept that and thank my hon. Friend for his intervention.
To return to the main thrust of my contribution, I am concerned that, unless we are careful, the separation of Royal Mail and post offices will have a sizeable detrimental effect on the viability of the post office network. The truth is that the network is a diminishing resource even as we speak. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), who moved the new clause, said that some post offices had temporarily closed. Well, if you believe that, you’ll believe anything. In truth, they are closed for business, just as many pubs are, which is another problem in rural areas—but not a part of the Bill.
Mr Weir
I have some experience of the Post Office in my constituency, and a long-term temporary closure effectively means that, although the Post Office accepts that there should be a post office in that location, the branch has closed because someone has retired or died and the organisation cannot find anyone willing to take it on. One reason for that is uncertainty about the future.
Mr Binley
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman, whom I worked with for some time on the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, for that intervention. He spent many hours with me questioning the management whom I have criticised so heavily. He is absolutely right: temporary closure does not take into account the fact that post offices are private businesses that need to have people to buy them, run them and invest in them. My hon. Friend—I mean the hon. Gentleman, but he is still my friend—makes a valid point. The post offices are for sale, but there are not any buyers for them. The reason is not difficult to work out. I have grave concerns about the viability of the Post Office.
Lorely Burt
I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, and I have a great deal of sympathy with it. It is a great shame that that happened, but now we have to pave the way for a change in how the rules operate, and the Bill will empower Ofcom to examine how the regulations in question apply.
As far as I understand it—I am sure the Minister will comment on this—current EU rules do not allow specific periods to be imposed on inter-business agreements. Donald Brydon pledged in his evidence to the Public Bill Committee that before any privatisation of Royal Mail, a continued long-term commercial contract would be in place between the two businesses for the longest duration that was legally possible. I do not know whether 10 years is the right period, but that decision has to be made between the two organisations. I know that there is a great will in Royal Mail to ensure that there is an inter-business agreement between the two parties that guarantees a safe, secure and productive future together.
Mr Weir
Let me remark in passing that I have spent many years standing in this spot defending post offices. It is somewhat disconcerting to find after the general election that, with a few honourable exceptions, everybody else has changed sides, while I am still standing in the same place, making the same point. However, it is good to see the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) come at least partly back into the light. We shall be supporting his new clause 2 this evening if he pushes it to a vote, which I hope he will.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
I agree that much more Government and local government work has to go to the Post Office, but can the hon. Gentleman tell us what his Government in Scotland are doing to give more Scottish Government work to the Post Office?
Mr Weir
The Government in Scotland will have discussions with the Post Office, in the same way as the Government here, but that will depend on what happens. I was making the point that, although I welcome the development that I have described—I could equally well ask the hon. Gentleman what his colleagues in local government are doing about it—I have concerns about what will be produced, albeit not because I distrust the Government’s intentions. The Minister held a meeting before the Bill came forward and he explained what he was trying to do. I support that, but there are practical difficulties.
I made the point that, in my area of Angus, the local authority has established local access offices in most boroughs to offer a front-office service for all local authority services. In Arbroath, Brechin, Kirriemuir, Forfar and Montrose, those offices are all situated around 100 yards at most from a post office. In the case of Kirriemuir, Forfar and Montrose, those are the only post offices in the borough. However, there are two difficulties with that. It is difficult to see how the local authority will have a greater ability to deliver services through the post offices in those borough areas, especially where there is only one post office. Also, because of what happened in the last round of closures—when many of our stand-alone larger post offices were closed, being moved into sweet shops, paper shops and other premises, as the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk said—those post offices do not have the space to deliver greater services and nor, in many cases, do they have the expertise.
In my constituency, there are already problems with some of those post offices because of lengthening queues and an inability to deliver the services already provided by the Post Office. It is difficult to see how those post offices will cope with an influx of other services from the UK Government, the Scottish Government, local authorities or anybody else. That is a practical difficulty, and I have not heard anyone in the Government come up with a solution to it. What is proposed may be a possibility in rural areas, but in their programme for post offices, the Government are talking about 4,000 main post offices that will provide a full range of services—incidentally, that is the number of post offices that are currently viable, which is slightly worrying. However, on top of that is what the Government call the post office local model. The idea of the local model is to put post offices into smaller businesses to deliver—the Government say—longer office hours and greater help for local people.
That is fine in theory, but the post office local model does not provide the full range of post office services. I suggest that the bulk of our post offices will be unable to provide the full range of services in smaller communities if the Government, local government, Scottish Government and whoever else get their act together and produce such services in the first instance. That practical difficulty needs to be tackled before things can proceed. That is another reason why a long-term inter-business agreement is a good idea. We have to look at not only the business, but the structure of the post office network, so that it can deliver the new business that is being promised to it.
However, the most important point is what the relationship will be between a privatised Royal Mail and a Government-owned Post Office Ltd, where the Government are determined to push down the costs to the taxpayer of continuing to support Post Office Ltd. As the hon. Member for Colchester rightly said, Royal Mail will inevitably try to push down its costs in delivering a mail service. When asked about that in the evidence session, Paula Vennells of Post Office Ltd said:
“In terms of what is in the Bill, what is important for Post Office is that we maintain our strong relationship with the Royal Mail Group.”––[Official Report, Postal Services Public Bill Committee, 9 November 2010; c. 5, Q6.]
That is fine and well, but we all know that at present Post Office Ltd gets fully one third of its business through the inter-business agreement. The Minister will, I am sure, point to the statement made during the evidence session by Royal Mail. Moya Greene, the chief executive, said:
“For me it is unthinkable that we would not have a very long-term relationship with the Post Office.”––[Official Report, Postal Services Public Bill Committee, 9 November 2010; c. 18, Q42.]
Again, that is all very well, but I would suggest that the relationship between a fully privatised Royal Mail and a Government-owned or mutual Post Office Ltd would be very different from that between two companies that are both members of Royal Mail Group, as they are at present. In passing, one might also wonder how long the present management will remain in place, given what has happened with management previously.
Fiona O'Donnell
The hon. Gentleman has referred several times to the report of the Public Bill Committee, but I wonder whether he has also seen the excellent report from the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, in which the Minister is recorded as saying:
“That makes it very clear that there are very limited circumstances in which there could be more than one universal service provider.”
However, if the Government are really committed to the relationship, why leave any gaps in the Bill at all?
Mr Weir
The hon. Lady makes a good point. I have read that report, which I found to be an excellent report, hitting on the main points as they affect Scotland.
I was talking about the management at Royal Mail. Ms Greene may have a considerable attachment to Post Office Ltd, but will a new owner of the business necessarily feel the same way? What happens when the commercial profit motive really kicks in? How much will sentimentality govern the actions of Royal Mail? That is especially important given that, as has been said on many occasions in previous debates, including in Committee, the ultimate owner of Royal Mail may turn out to be Deutsche Post or TNT, which I would suggest perhaps do not have the same sentimental attachment that we all have to our Royal Mail. As I understand it, the rationale behind the privatisation is to make the new company look for efficiency savings and cut costs. I agree with the hon. Member for Colchester that it is utterly inconceivable that the new company will not look at how it can do so in its relationship with Post Office Ltd, which will not be exempt from scrutiny under the new arrangement.
In her evidence, Ms Greene said:
“I do not see other retailers as a particularly serious threat, because Post Office has an enormous amount of expertise in this area”.––[Official Report, Postal Services Public Bill Committee, 9 November 2010; c. 17, Q42.]
The hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) mentioned the situation in Germany, but as the National Federation of SubPostmasters has said, there is no precedent anywhere in the world for splitting the delivery service from the post office. I asked the Minister on Second Reading whether he could come up with one, but none has been forthcoming since.
I spoke at length in Committee about the situation that has developed in New Zealand. I will not go into that again at great length today—interested Members can read the report of the Committee’s proceedings, where it is explained at some length. Suffice it to say that a competitor has set up what amounts to an alternative post office network targeted purely at what it needs to sustain its postal delivery business. That is another point. When Royal Mail is split from the Post Office, it will be in a very different position. Royal Mail will be looking at what it needs to be able to deliver a postal business—not a Government business, a pro-Government business or all the other things that the Post Office might do.
In her evidence to the Committee, the chief executive of Royal Mail said that it would be “inconceivable” that anyone but Post Office Ltd would be used by the Royal Mail. The Minister, if I recall correctly, was very dismissive of the idea that an operator might want to go to, say, a major supermarket and use it for delivery of post office services. Then again, it was not so long ago that it was inconceivable that a supermarket would offer a mobile phone network, for example, be an internet service provider or perhaps offer legal services, which might happen shortly. Who would have bought a television or a hoover from a supermarket 15 years ago? Times change and that applies to the Post Office as well.
In New Zealand, as I say, that has already begun to happen. That does not mean that a provider in the UK would necessarily do the same, but it is certainly a possibility. It might look into it and that provides a danger sign for post offices in the UK. New Zealand Post, of course, fought back—one of its principal weapons being Kiwibank—but this Government have rejected the option of creating a post bank in the UK with which to anchor Post Office Ltd.
No two postal markets are the same and the UK Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd might be able to hold together and provide a seamless and mutually profitable business, but there are lessons from what has happened elsewhere and we simply cannot idly let the future of the post offices in our constituencies rest on the good amicable feelings that currently operate between the two companies, which might not survive the privatisation.
Damian Collins
Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that, as discussed in Committee, the Post Office remains the owner of the Post Office brand and the business with the largest retail footprint in the country, which gives it considerable power in negotiating with Royal Mail?
Mr Weir
I do not agree with that, as I think Post Office Ltd will be very much the junior partner in the negotiation. I would ask whether Royal Mail rather than the Post Office is the brand for letter delivery, and Royal Mail will focus on how it delivers its mail business through the Royal Mail brand. In an earlier intervention, the hon. Gentleman made the point that an alternative provider could go to Post Office Ltd, but I ask him to consider whether that is realistic, given that only Royal Mail as the statutory provider of the universal service obligation will be required to have a nationwide delivery service. Other companies do not go in for that, and most of the present business for alternative providers relates to bulk mail delivery, not individual delivery. That requires a different business model from the one currently operated by Royal Mail.
Tom Blenkinsop
Another point is that there seems to be a massive assumption that these independently-owned post offices will suddenly opt into this mutualised model. A significant number of independent post offices will not want to do that; they enjoy the profits and the livelihoods they earn from their businesses.
Mr Weir
The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point. The problem is that it is not at all clear what mutuality means. If I understood the Minister correctly in Committee, what is being mutualised is not the post office network, but Post Office Ltd—the management of the Post Office—so the individual post offices would not be in a mutual network, but continue as individual businesses. I struggle to see how that is going to improve the situation.
Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Post Office Ltd is the junior partner in relation to some retail outlets, where it has an upstairs or downstairs location? It has to go through the footprint of the retail store, so it is not able to provide adequate facilities or the same kind of facilities that it did before as the Crown Post Office.
Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)
On the hon. Gentleman’s point about doing a deal with a supermarket, does he agree that there is absolutely nothing to prevent Royal Mail from doing a deal with other supermarket chains?
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
On the point about supermarkets, one key issue coming out of the Scottish Affairs Committee’s report was that the post office network is, in fact, a far better network than any supermarket chain in the UK as a whole. There are huge swathes of Scotland that have no supermarket and no supermarket chain, so this would not be a workable solution for large parts of the landmass.
Mr Weir
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Of the 12,000 current post offices, only 7,500 are needed to meet the universal service obligation. The Minister laughed at the hon. Member for Edinburgh South, I believe, for mentioning the German model and 80 sq km, but one wonders what exactly might happen in large swathes of rural Scotland if this were to come about.
I have spoken longer than I intended, but I end by saying that, while we maintain our position of opposition to the privatisation of the Royal Mail, a 10-year inter-business agreement would give Post Office Ltd the necessary guarantee and stability for a lengthy period after the privatisation. I hope that it would allow the stabilisation of Post Office Ltd, allow a reasonable period to get new Government business, if possible, into post offices, provide some hope for the temporarily closed post offices or others up for sale, and some comfort to those thinking of entering the post office market. That would at least provide them with some confidence that there is a future. Otherwise, they would not go into that market. I urge all Members to support the new clause, which I hope the hon. Member for Colchester will press to the vote in order to show the House’s strength of feeling on the issue.
Mr Anderson
I welcome the debate. Like the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), I do not want to see the privatisation of the Post Office at all, but if it happens the new clause will ameliorate its effects. Does anyone really believe that the Post Office, going out into the world of competition, would be able to survive against some of the competitors it would be up against? The case for going outside has not been made, but if it does go outside, the Post Office should be protected. I am not quite sure where the Liberal Democrats are coming from—there is nothing unusual in that—but they seem to think that European Union law stops us passing this new clause. We have had no evidence to demonstrate that, and I do not believe that any evidence was shown in Committee either.
I hope that the Minister will explain exactly what rule in European legislation prevents an inter-business agreement. Everybody else who appeared before the Committee seemed to think it was a good idea. George Thomson of the National Federation of SubPostmasters said:
“On separating Post Office Ltd from Royal Mail, it is unprecedented and we have to get it right, which is why we need a 10-year inter-business agreement… We need security for sub-postmasters; they have £2 billion of their own money invested in this business. If you were a company investing £2 billion in a PFI…you would get a 21-year contract. I am not asking for a 21-year contract, but…for a 10-year IBA contract.”––[Official Report, Postal Services Public Bill Committee, 9 November 2010; c. 29, Q70.]
He was not alone. Paula Vennells, managing director of Post Office Ltd, who ought to know as she was part of the new management, said that
“we have a very strong commercial relationship with Royal Mail and that is something that both businesses would want to continue, so as we transform the post office network we will make it into something that Royal Mail will want to use.”
Moya Greene, the chief executive of Royal Mail, concurred, stating that it was
“unthinkable that we would not have a very long-term relationship with the Post Office.”––[Official Report, Postal Services Public Bill Committee, 9 November 2010; c. 17-18, Q42.]
Even Richard Hooper, who brought forward the original report, said in the updated report that he believed that the
“importance of the inter-business agreement should not be underestimated”.––[Official Report, Postal Services Public Bill Committee, 11 November 2010; c. 114, Q228.]
It is a shame that those three people did not say that they wanted the IBA to continue in the way the amendment suggests. If we do not have that in black and white, we shall experience a rerun of what we witnessed in the Chamber between 12 and 12.30 pm today, when the Prime Minister repeatedly replied to questions by saying, “We hope that this can happen”, “We wish this to happen”, or “We are looking into ways of making this happen.”
If privatisation takes place in the way that is being proposed, when the contract goes outside people will eat it up. I spent 30 years in the trade union movement trying to unravel agreements and contracts or renegotiate agreements with organisations. I would say, “That must be there in black and white. If it is not in it, you cannot win it.” If we do not provide protection for Royal Mail and the Post Office that works in the way in which the IBA has worked so far, the service will clearly not be saved.
I appreciate that members of the Government are naïve amateurs who are doing their best to make things work, but that is not good enough. We need to ensure that services are supported. We are told that European Union rules are preventing that, and I hope that the Minister, who has now returned to the Chamber, will be able to explain exactly how they are doing so. When Corus was threatened with closure on Teesside, my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) and I were constantly told that EU rules prevented Government intervention. We were told that the Germans and the Dutch used those rules, and that the British must play by the rules. We were losing out. Unless we have real, clear evidence that this cannot be done under law, the Government’s case will not hold water.
Mr Davey
Let me just finish the point, because there is a legal barrier. This also addresses the point made by the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), who asked whether the European Union was involved in creating problems for legislating in the way proposed in the new clause. The legal barrier to legislation requiring an IBA is the EU’s competition framework. Legislation providing an exclusive arrangement between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd would face a significant risk of legal challenge as being incompatible with competition law. Article 101 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union contains rules prohibiting anti-competitive agreements between undertakings. Article 4(3) of the treaty on European Union obliges member states not to jeopardise the attainments of the objectives of the treaty. The effect of those provisions, together with article 102 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, is that member states cannot introduce measures that would render the competition rules ineffective—that is clear. In addition, legislating for Post Office Ltd to have a guaranteed income stream would risk a successful state aid challenge being mounted. There are real barriers to doing what new clause 2 seeks to do.
However, I can assure the House, as I have done previously, that we, as shareholders, will ensure that the commitment that Royal Mail made in its evidence to the Public Bill Committee—that it would conclude the longest legally permissible contract before separation—is fulfilled.
Mr Weir
I understand that after the Bill is passed, if that indeed happens, one company—and only one—that has a statutory universal service obligation will be entering into a contract with Post Office Ltd. I fail to see where the competition problem lies, because nobody else is offering a universal service obligation to challenge that.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 11, page 15, line 17, clause 28, at end add—
‘(c) the needs of small business users in rural and remote areas’.
Amendment 12, page 16, line 16, clause 30, leave out ‘Friday’ and insert ‘Saturday’.
Amendment 13, page 16, line 28, leave out ‘Friday’ and insert ‘Saturday’.
Amendment 14, page 18, line 17, leave out paragraph (b).
Amendment 23, line 25, after second ‘time’, insert
‘but not before the date five years after this Part comes into force’.
Amendment 24, line 33, clause 33, after ‘time’, insert
‘but not before the date five years after this Part comes into force’.
Amendment 25, line 36, clause 33, leave out
‘may by order amend section 30’
and insert
‘shall as soon as reasonably practicable after the review of minimum requirements of the Universal Postal Service under subsection (1) has been carried out lay before Parliament a report which shall include a copy of the review.’.
Amendment 26, line 37, clause 33, leave out subsections (6) and (7).
Amendment 29, page 21, line 40, clause 37, after ‘unless’, insert
‘it has been commercially negotiated and’.
Amendment 30, page 22, line 1, leave out lines 1 to 18.
Mr Weir
New clause 4 and amendments 11 and 14, standing in my name, relate to concerns about the universal service obligation. My concern throughout the Bill’s passage has been that there are insufficient safeguards to ensure that, in the event of the Royal Mail’s privatisation, the universal service obligation, which is so important to my constituents, is maintained.
Throughout Committee, the Minister insisted that the purpose behind the Bill was to secure the universal service obligation, but I made the point on several occasions, as I did earlier today, that far too much has been left to trust and hope—a point, indeed, that was made in our previous debate this afternoon. In many other areas, the Government are very fond of triple locks, yet on something as important as the universal service obligation, they have not put sufficient safeguards in place.
The new clause is an attempt—perhaps not a triple lock, but at least a lock—to provide some assurance that a privatised company will maintain the universal obligation and not seek to get around its provisions. In the event of privatisation, the privatised company will be given the obligation to provide the universal service, but it concerns me greatly that our only sanction to ensure that it does so is through the regulator, Ofcom. There is nothing specific in the Bill to prevent, for example, a privatised company from hiving off the profitable parts of the organisation, although if recent press reports are true perhaps the European Commission will have done so before the company reaches privatisation. That could leave only a shell company obliged to provide the universal service.
What would happen if the privatised company went to the Government, saying that it could no longer afford to run the service and seeking either a public subsidy or to abandon the service? We would be thrown back on the regulator alone or have to utilise the compensation fund that we debated at some length in Committee, with the other operators having to contribute and the consumer, as the Minister confirmed, perhaps having to pay substantially higher costs for the service.
I am sure that the Minister, in his usual inimitable fashion, will say that my argument is a flight of fancy, but in recent years we have seen how many large companies operate, moving, for instance, their head offices to avoid UK corporation tax, the latest example being Cadbury, after its takeover by Kraft, which is reportedly moving its head office to Switzerland. UK Uncut has staged demonstrations throughout the UK against other companies, as diverse as Vodafone and Topshop, which seem to have indulged in practices to avoid taxation.
The universal service obligation is far too important to be left to the good will of a privatised mail carrier. Far too much stock has been placed on the name and reputation of Royal Mail, but the situation after privatisation will be far different. The organisation will no longer be a state monopoly but a private company—albeit one that, admittedly under the Bill, has a high social obligation. In my experience, and as our bankers have eloquently shown in recent weeks, however, there is very little sentimentality in big business.
I raised the matter during the Committee’s eighth sitting, when I asked the Minister whether there was anything in the Bill to prevent asset stripping. He said:
“The hon. Gentleman has anticipated where I was going, because a number of protections in the Bill will give reassurance to hon. Members who are worried about that. For example, under clause 35, Ofcom has the power to impose designated USP conditions akin to condition 16 of Royal Mail’s existing licence. Condition 16 does not allow Royal Mail to pursue things, such as an asset disposal or dividend payment, if doing so would create ‘any significant risk that the necessary resources will not be available’ to enable it to continue its business.”––[Official Report, Postal Services Public Bill Committee, 18 November 2010; c. 289.]
The Minister went on to explain that Ofcom can impose that condition, and that Royal Mail could face a very large fine for breaches of its regulatory obligations.
I am not particularly reassured, and I tabled the new clause because it seems that Ofcom has the power to react only once something has happened, when it is far too late to do very much about it. Condition 16 does not give any real protection because a gradual sell-off of assets would not necessarily mean that Royal Mail was unable to continue in business, although it might undermine its ability to continue parts of its business, which is completely different.
Mr Davey
The hon. Gentleman will know from the debate in Committee that there is the potential for Ofcom to impose a fine on the universal service provider of up to 10% of its turnover. At the moment, that would be a fine of £650 million. Does he not think that that is a disincentive?
Mr Weir
The Minister is forgetting my point. If a privatised operator has got rid of many of the profitable parts to simply leave a shell, what is £650 million to a company that effectively does not exist other than as a nameplate? That could happen. This new clause is designed to stop such things happening.
Tony Lloyd
As the hon. Gentleman is helping the House, will he help me by saying whether there is a duty on Ofcom to insist on the universal service provision? If not, it makes no real difference whether there is the capacity to levy a fine or not.
Mr Weir
There is a duty on Ofcom to ensure the universal service. However, as I was trying to explain, the problem is that Ofcom’s only sanction is to act after something has happened. If the conditions have been breached, Ofcom can take action—it can fine the company a very substantial amount or it can impose other conditions. That is very much a reactive rather than a proactive sanction. If there is nothing there to fine or there is nothing left, it makes no difference whether the fine is £650 million or £20 trillion.
Tony Lloyd
What the hon. Gentleman is confirming is that there is, in fact, no duty on Ofcom other than a retrospective duty. That is not a duty, is it?
Mr Weir
Indeed. I would put it a different way. There is no effective sanction available to Ofcom to deal with something after it has happened to the detriment of the USO. It is only able to impose conditions or a fine, and fining a shell company is no good. Ofcom cannot prevent the sale; it can react only if what is happening turns out to undermine the ability to provide the USO. As I said, if the company has already sold off all its profitable parts leaving only a shell, what is the point of a large fine that it is not in a position to pay?
The Bill must provide the power to allow Ofcom to take action before a sale is proceeded with and to ensure that the privatised company cannot dispose of all profitable assets to avoid the duty of the USO. I am sure that the Minister will say that that is a burdensome hurdle, but it is not. It is not the first sale that would be required to clear a regulatory hurdle before going ahead—indeed, many deals are done subject to regulatory approval. I am sure that the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills is only too well aware that the BSkyB case had to go to the European Commission to determine whether it would be blocked at that level before the remaining shares could be put forward.
If the new clause was passed, Ofcom could look at the proposal and ensure that the assets of the company remained sufficient to meet the needs of its social obligation. In most cases, that would be a relatively quick process. However, it would give the reassurance that once there is a privatisation—if that disaster should happen—there would at least be something in place to ensure that the universal service continues in all circumstances. I ask hon. Members to support the new clause to give that extra protection.
Time is short, but I would like to mention briefly the other amendments in my name. Amendment 11 would add to the Bill a reference to
“the needs of small business users in rural and remote areas”
and make it a specific matter to which Ofcom must give concern in considering the USO. The reason is simple. We need to ensure that the universal service obligation is secured for small businesses in rural areas if we are to have any chance of creating new employment opportunities in our rural communities. On Second Reading, Scottish National party Members tabled an amendment supported by Plaid Cymru and all the parties of Northern Ireland because of our huge concern that the Bill would have profound implications for that ability to continue the USO.
It is vital to bear in mind that not only residential but small business customers rely on Royal Mail. They do not have any real options and cannot access the deals that may be on offer from alternative carriers. In the parcels market, if one can get anyone to deliver to large parts of Scotland at all, it is only at a vastly increased price. Not so long ago, the then management of Royal Mail proposed a zonal pricing structure that would have created different prices for different areas of the United Kingdom. In the recent spate of bad weather in Scotland, many of the alternative carriers simply gave up, and several publicly stated that they would not attempt deliveries in Scotland at all.
Throughout this time, Royal Mail did its best to ensure that the mail got through, with postal workers struggling in very difficult conditions to ensure that the mail was delivered. Although there were delays and although, for obvious reasons, some areas could not get mail, most of the mail got through. We should congratulate Royal Mail and its workers on doing that. It shows the difference between a dedicated public company service and the privatised services that operate elsewhere. Amendment 11, allied with the others in the group, is simply an attempt to ensure that if the disaster of privatisation befalls Royal Mail, as much as possible is done to ensure that the USO is watertight and that the interests of all users are adequately protected.
Amendments 12 and 13 are linked, in that the purpose of both is to ensure that the universal service obligation for postal packets is a six-day service.
Mr Reid
The hon. Gentleman has a point. Although the USO for parcels is currently only five days, and the Bill does not change that, I hope that the Minister will consider increasing the USO to six days for parcels. He has improved the USO in many ways in the Bill, but I ask him to take this away and look at it again, because I am concerned that if we do not have a six-days-a-week USO for parcels, Saturday parcel deliveries in the highlands and islands will end.
Mr Weir
The hon. Gentleman is perfectly right. I hope that he will follow up that strong support for the proposal by coming through the Lobby and voting for it in order to send an additional message to his Minister.
As the Bill stands, we have a six-day service for letters but only a five-day service for postal packets. I am at a complete loss as to the logic behind the differences between the two. One thing that came through loud and clear from Richard Hooper’s report, on which the Government have relied, is that the market for letters is declining substantially. The bulk of private letters are now being sent around Christmas, and they will mostly be Christmas cards. I suspect that I am not the only one who has noticed that the rise of the e-card is biting even into this market, with fewer cards being sent through the post, or perhaps it is just that I have fewer friends this year—I do not know. In any event, the one area where there is real scope for building the business is what we are now told we should call e-fulfilment—in effect, the delivery of orders made over the internet. This is a two-way process. In my constituency, for example, there are businesses in rural areas who sell over the internet and send out packages on a regular basis. They rely on the universal service obligation to ensure that they have access to the postal service at a reasonable cost and that allows them to operate at a reasonable cost.
Interestingly, in research on the business market carried out by Postcomm, more than half the businesses surveyed were of the opinion that they will use the internet more in future, but the vast majority—93%—believe that they will always need to send some things by post. Half of businesses expect more customers to order products online in future, indicating a belief that the market will grow further. Digging down into the figures, it appears that of those who spend between £100 and £500 a month on mail—basically small businesses—72% have either stayed at the same level of usage of Royal Mail or have increased it in the past year.
That is the one growth area within Royal Mail, and not having the universal service obligation cover it in the same way as in the letters market does not appear to make any great sense. Again, I point out that if we are to grow private businesses in rural areas, we need to have the infrastructure to allow them to flourish, and that includes a reliable six-days-a-week postal service.
Mr Reid
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. I reinforce my earlier point that I am concerned that if the USO for parcels is not extended to six days a week, parcels will not be delivered in the highlands and islands on Saturdays. As he said, the delivery of parcels in response to internet selling is such an important growth area that the highlands and islands would miss out if parcels were not delivered on Saturdays.
Mr Weir
I reiterate that the hon. Gentleman may have a chance to vote for that later and to help the Minister make up his mind.
Goods not only go out by post, but are received by post. Raw materials may come in by post. For many constituents, no one is at home during the day from Monday to Friday. I am sure that such people would like packages to be delivered on a Saturday, when they actually might be in and would not have to travel to collect them at the nearest sorting office, wherever that may be after privatisation. If we are serious about increasing business and ensuring that every area of the country has access to a reliable, reasonably priced postal service, it would be daft to exclude from the universal service the one area that has potential for substantial growth.
Finally, amendment 14 would remove Ofcom’s ability to use geographical criteria to suspend the universal service. That has long been a contentious issue, even under the current framework. Households that are difficult to reach can have delivery suspended. The condition in the Bill is far too wide and could result in whole isolated mainland or remote island communities being removed from the universal service. That would be a travesty and lead to a huge increase in costs for such communities. There may always be some individual dwellings where the mail simply cannot be delivered, but those should be looked at on an individual level.
I urge all hon. Members to support the proposals, which all attempt to strengthen the USO and to recognise that the highest priority for the Royal Mail, whether it continues as a publicly owned company, as I hope, or becomes a privatised company, is to deliver to all our citizens.
Mr Reid
As I said in my interventions on the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir), I hope that the Minister takes away the proposal in amendments 12 and 13 to extend the universal service obligation for parcels to six days a week. As I said, I am concerned that parcels will not be delivered on Saturdays in the highlands and islands without such an extension. Apart from that one remaining concern, I think that the Minister has done a great job in the Bill to strengthen the USO in many ways, which is so important for the highlands and islands.
Amendment 14 deals with the hon. Gentleman’s concern that the geographical exceptions clause will be used to remove large parts of the highlands and islands from the universal service obligation. I do not share that concern. The wording is the same as that in the Postal Services Act 2000. The regulator, Postcomm, has used that exception only in a small number of cases, such as for islands that do not have a daily ferry service. Obviously, it would be nonsense for Royal Mail to charter a boat to an island to which Caledonian MacBrayne does not have a daily ferry service. The solution is for Caledonian MacBrayne to improve the service so that islands such as Tiree, Coll and Colonsay have a daily ferry service, but it is not for Royal Mail to charter special boats. Postcomm has also introduced exceptions on health and safety grounds, such as dangerous dogs. Under amendment 14, Royal Mail would have to deliver to houses with a dangerous path or animal. The wording in the Bill, which is taken from the 2000 Act, is satisfactory. I questioned Postcomm and Ofcom in the Scottish Affairs Committee and Ofcom gave an assurance that it will maintain Postcomm’s regulatory regime for geographical exceptions. Given those assurances, amendment 14 is not necessary.
Mr Davey
Because of the shortage of time, I shall begin with a brief overview of our reaction to the new clause and amendments.
The Government have introduced more protections for the universal service than currently exist, and more than the last Government proposed in their 2009 Postal Services Bill. We have strengthened the existing protections. The amendments tabled by the hon. Members for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark), for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks) and, indeed, for Angus (Mr Weir) would weaken those protections, and would serve the consumer very poorly.
I entirely see what the hon. Member for Angus is getting at in new clause 4. As he said, we discussed it in Committee. As I told him then, however, I believe that the Bill provides the protection that is needed. I told him that the Bill gives Ofcom the power to impose a designated universal service provider condition similar to the condition 16 requirement in Royal Mail’s existing licence. That prevents Royal Mail from doing anything—such as transferring assets or paying out dividends—that
“creates any significant risk that the necessary resources will not be available”
to carry on its business.
If the universal service provider put itself in breach of its obligations through, for example, the sale of part or all of the business in a way that no longer enabled it to fulfil the universal service requirement, Ofcom could take enforcement action. As I said in my intervention on the hon. Gentleman’s speech, it could fine the universal service provider up to 10% of the turnover of its postal business in the relevant year. On the basis of Royal Mail’s current turnover, that would be more than £650 million. He seems to think that it is an insignificant return, but I disagree. Moreover, he did not mention—although I had told him in Committee—that there are additional protections in company law relating to what the pensions regulator can do.
In my view, new clause 4 is not needed. We already have the necessary protections, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will at last be reassured and will withdraw the new clause.
In amendment 11, the hon. Gentleman seeks to ensure that the needs of small businesses in rural and remote areas continue to be met, and are taken into account in all of Ofcom’s actions relating to postal services. I agree that both those protections are vital, but again he need not worry, as there is already ample provision in the Bill. Section 3(4)(l) of the Communications Act 2003 requires Ofcom to take into account the needs of
“the different interests of persons in the different parts of the United Kingdom...and of persons living in rural and in urban areas”.
We are extending those duties to Ofcom’s functions in respect of post: “communications matters” in section 3(1)(a) of the 2003 Act will now include postal matters.
Mr Davey
It has been well established that, in the Act, “persons” also means businesses.
On amendments 12 and 13, Members will be aware that the market is undergoing big structural changes. Volumes have declined by 15% in the last five years, and Richard Hooper predicted declines of up to 40% in the next few years. Surely we all agree that action must be taken to protect the universal postal service. Clause 30 sets out the minimum requirements of that service, which are identical to those set out in the Postal Services Act 2000. They are also identical to the minimum requirements proposed by the Opposition in their 2009 Bill. They gold-plate the minimum requirements of the European postal services directive. The amendments would impose additional regulation on top of that gold-plating, and thus risk undermining the provision of the very universal service that we are trying to save. In its evidence to the Public Bill Committee, Royal Mail spoke of the need for deregulation in competitive parts of the market if it is to survive. The most competitive part of the market is packets and parcels. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is not looking at what is happening. Royal Mail is competitive, and despite there being no requirement, it is delivering six days a week. The 2000 Act does not require that, nor does the European postal service directive. The last Government did not seek to require it either, and Postcomm does not require it in its licence. Yet Royal Mail provides a six-day-a-week parcel service. Why does it do that? The simple answer is because it makes commercial sense. That is the best incentive for any business.
This Government are committed to reducing regulatory burdens. We do not wish to impose regulation where it is not necessary. It is vital that businesses can operate free from the spectre of excessive bureaucracy that serves no purpose.