Wales Bill

Stephen Doughty Excerpts

Monday 12th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I think that the hon. Gentleman is missing the point. If he has read the Silk report, he will recognise the complexities that even Silk has highlighted. In relation to those complexities, we are negotiating with the Welsh Government in a positive, constructive environment. The new clause and the amendment do not meet the technical requirements, because their provisions would effectively stop at the administrative border. As the hon. Gentleman knows, many of the trains running in and out of his constituency come to and from England. Accepting the new clauses and the amendment would not meet the criteria that he seeks to meet.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Alun Cairns]

I will give way briefly, but I want to make some progress after that.

[Stephen Doughty]

The Secretary of State still has not answered the question. Does he not believe that, at the very least, there should be a level playing field? It seems that while a German company can run rail services in Wales, a United Kingdom company—let alone a co-operative or a partnership—would be prohibited from running the Welsh rail franchise.

[Alun Cairns]

The OJEU advert has been made for the franchise. Good progress is being made and we wish to continue in the spirit in which the Welsh Government have made that advert—in the delicate and sensitive negotiations taking place, in the positive, constructive environment that already exists.

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[Paul Flynn]

I warmly welcome my hon. Friend’s point. Again, the Government are blind to the prospects for Wales in the area of renewable energy, particularly in hydro. We can rely on many factors, including the tide and the rain. Indeed, 2,200 MV of electricity are produced in Wales via hydro.

[Stephen Doughty]

I agree with many of the points that have been made, including those of my hon. Friend. I spent this weekend at the Co-operative party conference in Cardiff, where we discussed the many benefits of co-operative, mutual and non-profit solutions for running services such as these. Does he agree that in addition to cost benefits, the involvement of employees and users in the design of the services can also be beneficial?

[Paul Flynn]

The greatest part of the movement that my party has built on over the years is the co-operative movement and its great pioneers. It is a shame that we have not developed it more as a principle. Here, however, we have the opportunity to advance that principle in relation to the reality of the railways.

The purpose of the new clause is to remove the inappropriate restrictions on the exercise of Welsh Ministers’ powers over the rail franchises when they are devolved next year. Let the Welsh Assembly be free to repeat the success of Glas Cymru. It has been agreed between the two Governments that Executive powers over Wales-only services will be transferred to Welsh Ministers. Once that has been achieved, it is important that they are able to operate the franchise in line with their policy priorities.

As things stand under the provisions of the Railways Act 1993, Welsh Ministers would not be able to open the franchise to public sector operators. Those restrictions no longer apply in Scotland, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Christina Rees), and there is no case for them to apply in Wales. If the power is devolved, there should be no policy restrictions on its exercise. It must be open to Welsh Ministers to maximise the effectiveness and efficiency of public transport in Wales, including ensuring that alternative models are fully considered and that new opportunities are seized. For example, if the Welsh Government want to open the Wales and Borders franchise to domestic public sector operators, that should be a matter for them.

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[Paul Flynn]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that there will be a gap there, and that was a change we did not know about. The Welsh Assembly, and partly this House, decided to have a progressive form of governing in Wales, where we recognise elements of proportional representation, although we do not welcome some of its results. It is right, however, that parties that gain 13% of the vote get 13% of the membership. We have an advanced democracy, as was voted for when the Labour Government set up the Welsh Assembly—the disgrace is in the Lords.

We know what would happen as a result of devolving to the Welsh Assembly the power to increase the number of Members. It would be a brave Assembly that did that in isolation, because adding more politicians is not the most popular thing. The only way this can be presented to the public is as part of a package deal; if the number of MPs is to go down, there would be a case for increasing the number of Assembly Members. Similarly, if the number of MEPs has decreased, a case that would be financially acceptable could be made. What is not acceptable is what the Government are doing now with a piecemeal reform of the only part of the democratic system that could be reformed to their advantage. We need an overall reform, cancelling the planned boundary changes and with the Government getting together with all parties to have a constitutional convention to clear up the nonsense of what is happening in the Lords and the disgrace of buying peerages. Even papers such as the Daily Mail condemned the decision of the last Prime Minister in his resignation honours—

[Stephen Doughty]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Paul Flynn]

indicated assent.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

It may seem pretty good to some hon. Members, but we are drifting a little from where we should be. I know we are encompassing everything we need to, but I do not want to open up a full-blown debate on the House of Lords.

[Stephen Doughty]

I agree with many of the points my hon. Friend has made about the democratic deficit we could be heading towards. He said that the boundary review is to the Government’s advantage, and clearly that is their intention. But it is clearly not to the liking of all those on the Government Benches, as we saw from some of the points of order and comments coming from Conservative Back Benchers last week. Does he agree that the Government might well be stoking up trouble on their own side with this democratic atrocity?

[Paul Flynn]

I am sure they will and they should concern themselves with that. Another Member made the point last week that by reducing the number of Members and not reducing the number of Ministers, the Government were strengthening the power of the Executive, at the expense of Back Benchers. This is a mess and it needs an overall root-and-branch reform.

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If Welsh APD rates were lowered, it would cause significant and unjustifiable disadvantages for Bristol airport, probably leading to a large decrease of passenger numbers—there could be a decrease of up to 25% if Welsh APD is scrapped altogether.

[Stephen Doughty]

The Minister is talking about Cardiff airport, but what consultations did he undertake with the airport management and Cardiff airport passengers? I take issue with him on this: he said that Cardiff airport and Bristol were only 60 minutes apart. Having driven that distance many times, I am pretty sure that that is not the case, not least because of some of the challenges along the M4 at the moment.

[Guto Bebb]

I am sure there are challenges along the M4 at this point in time, but my understanding is that the distance between Cardiff and Bristol can be covered in an hour.

On the consultation, we looked widely at a number of options in relation to the impact of the proposed change. The clear point is that we have to take into account the impact of changes to APD on devolution. We need to consult regional airports in England that will be affected and Cardiff airport, the single international airport in Wales. However, the analysis, which we have concluded, shows quite clearly that the scale of the impact of such a change would be detrimental to Bristol to such an extent that it could have a detrimental effect on the availability of flights to south Wales consumers and businesses. In other words, it could have an unintended consequence that would be bad for the economy of south-east Wales, because we would damage Bristol before we saw any upsurge in Cardiff. On that basis, we have concluded that we are opposed at this point in time to the devolution of APD to Wales.

The Government have listened carefully to the debate about the devolution of APD and are fully appreciative of the importance of the aviation sector for creating jobs and growth in Wales. I understand the reason that hon. Members offer in proposing the change, but we cannot justify the distortion it would cause to the wider economy of Wales and to the economy of the south-west of England. That is why the Government reject the devolution of APD.

New clause 7 seeks to assign a share of the VAT revenues generated in Wales to the Welsh Government, in the same manner that a share of Scottish VAT revenues will be assigned to the Scottish Government from April 2019, following the cross-party Smith commission agreement and given effect through the Scotland Act 2016. It is important to understand the purpose of VAT assignment, which is to increase the link between the Scottish Government’s policy decisions and their budget, and thereby further to increase their accountability for the decisions they take.

Of course, that argument could be made in support of VAT assignment for Wales. The Welsh Government have a similar range of economic policy levers as the Scottish Government, and one of our key aims is to increase accountability—that is one of the key aims of the Bill. However, the independent cross-party Silk commission gave full consideration to assigning a share of VAT receipts generated in Wales. It recognised that the main argument in favour of assignment is that it would strengthen the link between the performance of the Welsh economy and the size of the Welsh Government’s budget. However, the Silk commission pointed out that it would also mean taking on additional revenue risks arising from factors over which the Welsh Government could have less control. The commission concluded that assignment of Welsh VAT revenues to the Welsh Government’s budget should not be pursued.

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[Paul Flynn]

What a bleak end to the Minister’s speech! His timid conclusion is that we have to stick to the 350 MW limit, which was decided a long time ago, and ignores, without any vision, the glorious opportunity we have in Wales. If anything is the Welsh North sea oil, it is hydro and tidal power. The possibilities are enormous. The Government’s proposal of a 350 MW limit would cover the Swansea lagoon, but it certainly would not cover the 1,800 MW at the other two planned lagoons at Cardiff and Newport. As far as nuclear is concerned, it would not cover Wylfa Newydd. It would not cover the possible alternatives to Wylfa, either.

This proposal also ignores the bold and decisive action taken by our Prime Minister, for which I sent her a letter of congratulation, to halt the Hinkley Point contract hours before the champagne corks would have been popping. Down at Hinkley Point, where they would have had their champagne, if they looked across to Wales they could have seen the second highest rising and falling tide in the world, unused and neglected but an immense source of power, washing past its walls. That could be Welsh power. That could be ours to exploit and for the Government to take on. Such power does not have the problems of the unsightly wind turbines in mid-Wales. It would enhance the natural environment in the same way as hydro. It seems remarkable that in Wales we have 2,200 MW of nuclear power. Who would know it was there? It is hidden under the hills and silent. There are lakes on top of the hills, an enhancement of nature from power stations running since 1963. It was interesting to see during the recess how many Plaid Cymru Members visited the hydroelectric power stations in their constituencies.

The possibilities that the geography of Wales gives us to exploit hydro and tidal power are numberless and immense. It is a source of renewable power which, unlike the sun and wind, is entirely predictable. In Wales, we can guarantee rain for hydro power and we can guarantee for eternity that the tides will flow. This seems to be another lost opportunity. The problems of Hinkley are not just the possibility of Chinese spies, but the possibility of the dearest electricity in the world. We are tied into a deal for 35 years. There is also the problem that EPR reactors have never worked anywhere in the world. Their delays average about 10 years, so we could develop hydro power and the lagoons within the period in which Hinkley—if it goes ahead, which it might not—would deliver.

[Stephen Doughty]

I agree with some, though not all, of what my hon. Friend has said, but I strongly agree with him on tidal power. Many people in south Wales just want to get on with tidal power and see it moving forward. There has been a lot of frustration at the situation at UK level and the delaying of decisions. Does my hon. Friend agree that the fundamental issue here is the arbitrary megawatt limit that the Government have imposed? Does he agree that it is arbitrary and that that is why we should support his amendment?

[Paul Flynn]

Yes, it is arbitrary. I know my hon. Friend has connections and would like to see more jobs created in this area, as would we all. This is, in fact, the means through which the greatest number of jobs would be created. The 350 MW limit is meaningless. The Minister mentions the Silk commission, but that was a long time ago—before we realised that there was a huge question mark over Hinkley. We will not know for a fortnight what will go ahead there, but this Bill is a great opportunity for us in Wales. Amendments 70 to 82, which we tabled, offer a marvellous chance to get energy in Wales. Unlike the curse of energy in the past, when we suffered the dirt, degradation and pollution of the coal industry, here we have a source of energy that is benign, clean, green, Welsh and eternal. What could be better than that?

It was disappointing to hear the Minister’s response to our new clause 1, which deals with marine issues. Its purpose is to promote effective consultation and communication between the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and the Welsh Government in respect of devolved fisheries and marine matters. The new clause would put Wales on the same footing as Scotland. It is increasingly irritating to hear from the Government that what is right for Scotland is never right for Wales. Wales always seems to come second when it comes to doling out these grudged gifts of power from this excessively and neurotically power-attentive Government. For goodness’ sake, let go, and let Wales have at least what Scotland has. What on earth is wrong with that?

Powers in respect of fisheries, marine planning, inshore marine licensing and conservation are already devolved. The Wales Bill makes further provision for ports to be devolved, which is very welcome; for devolution in respect of marine licensing; for conservation to be extended to the offshore area; and for consenting over marine energy projects. That is moving in the right direction, but consultation on the MCA’s priorities would promote joined-up, cross-Government engagement at an early stage on marine and fisheries issues. The new clause is designed to promote consultation and information sharing on matters of mutual interest, which could only benefit the public as well as commercial and conservation areas. It is an entirely sensible and common-sense measure which should be accepted by the Government.

We warmly support new clause 6 on air passenger duty, tabled by Plaid Cymru Members, and will do so if it is pressed to a Division. It seems extraordinary for a Welsh Minister to talk about air travel when we know that the disposition of the airports works in a circle. At the centre of the circle are Heathrow and Gatwick, where all the traffic goes. As we move further from those hubs out to the periphery, the problems get worse. Our airport, Cardiff, is on the periphery of the periphery, so it deserves special treatment—just as the Scottish airports do. For the same reason, we deserve special impetus to make sure that we can compete. We cannot compete on an equal basis at the moment because of the geography involved. The traffic flows towards the centre—towards London and towards Bristol.

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[Wayne David]

I want to say a few words about new clause 11 and whether the devolution of policing is to be kept under review. I begin with a non-partisan point. When I was a Wales Office Minister for some 18 months, it struck me during meetings at the Home Office to consider policing in England and Wales how it became matter of fact simply to talk about England. That changed when I banged the table a few times, but it was interesting, going back several years now, that there was already a mindset that policing had been devolved to Wales—so they thought—and that it need not be considered by the Home Office. One of the unintended consequences of devolution is the assumption, certainly made by senior civil servants at that time—I suggest that it is still made—that policing has been devolved and that it should be considered on an England-only basis. It is not enough for us to keep on reminding people that it is not devolved; we have to realise why that assumption has been made and work out what is the logical direction of travel. A fair point made frequently by our colleagues in the Welsh Assembly is that policing is the only non-devolved emergency service in Wales.

Over the past few years, we have seen a movement towards the practical involvement of the Welsh Assembly in the day-to-day development of policing strategies, particularly on community safety. They fund a large number of police community support officers—I think they call them community support officers—and there are initiatives on counter-terrorism and how to get effective policies to tackle the threat. The Tarian unit is looking at organised drugs crime in Wales and how to combat it. Also, as has been mentioned, Wales has four police and crime commissioners who argue strongly and logically that the time has come for the devolution of policing to be seriously considered. The four police authorities in Wales have created a police liaison team that involves senior officers regularly meeting the Welsh Government. In a sense, a dovetailing is already taking place before our eyes on day-to-day policing.

I am not suggesting that this is an easy matter to be considered and then easily devolved, as it is not; it is complex and difficult. For example, the funding arrangements for policing in Wales are the most complicated of those of all the public services. More than a third of all police funding in Wales comes from the Home Office —that is more than £250 million a year, so we are talking about a heck of a lot of money. Before any devolution occurs, we want to be sure that we have funding arrangements commensurate with the powers that are devolved. That important issue must be central to any discussions and future negotiations.

We will also have to be mindful of the need for effective cross-border co-operation in any devolution of policing. As we all know, crime does not recognise any international boundaries these days, and it certainly does not recognise Offa’s Dyke, so we need strong, automatic mechanisms of co-operation in place as part of any devolution strategy. On co-operation, it is also particularly important that we examine the issue of police training and recognise that no matter what the devolution package is, it is extremely unlikely that Wales would develop its own training strategy for police officers. We would have to buy in, if necessary, from the national College of Policing, which is based in Berkshire and does an excellent job on police training. We also need to continue our involvement with the National Policing Improvement Agency. Policing must not be separated; we need to make sure that a close partnership is developed and put in place, taking into account the current funding arrangements, which are no longer suitable for the situation in which we find ourselves.

This issue will not go away, because of political imperatives and because the practicalities of tackling crime efficiently necessitate more devolution and greater partnership with the institutions of government that exist in Wales and are developing—this Bill helps in their development. We do not need a knee-jerk reaction, simply saying that the devolution of policing can be done easily and quickly, as it cannot. However, this needs to be kept under review, as this sensible and moderate new clause suggests. I heard the Minister’s negative comments, but I hope that he will recognise reality and keep this issue full square on the table, so that we have an active and positive consideration, and that when the time is right and there is a political consensus for it, we devolve policing powers for Wales.

[Stephen Doughty]

I wish to speak briefly about two areas: the amendments on energy generation and new clause 6 on air passenger duty.

On energy, I have already indicated my support for many of the comments that were made by our Front-Bench spokesman and indeed that were coming from those on the Government Benches, too. I believe the Welsh Government should be having more say on this issue because the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly have set a very different direction on sustainability and energy production right from the outset. We saw the principle of sustainable development and sustainability embedded in the first Wales Act, and the sustainable futures Act and other legislation passed in the Assembly have also shown a different direction. I trust people there to make a better choice about the energy mix and energy production matrix in Wales than we are seeing coming from the UK Government, particularly when they abolish the Department of Energy and Climate Change and downgrade sustainability and climate change in their overall agenda. We have a different approach in Wales. The megawatt limits that are set at the moment are arbitrary, and we ought to be giving as much encouragement as possible to local decision making on this, for many reasons. In particular, I would like the removal of some of the impediments to local energy generation by community energy schemes, as so much damage has been done to these schemes.

At the Co-operative party conference this weekend—I am a proud Co-operative party MP as well—I heard about the damage that has been done to community and co-operative energy across the UK by the rapid changes, for example, to feed-in tariffs, and the bureaucracy surrounding such schemes. It has been a huge mistake and has caused great damage to the industry. We have a thriving community energy sector in Wales that I want to see grow and expand. Given the framework that the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly have set from the beginning and which is very much embedded in their structures, it makes clear sense to devolve and expand the powers in this area.

It may seem odd for me to talk next about air travel and new clause 6. I believe that the expansion of air travel must be in balance with other forms of transport and within the framework of the Climate Change Act 2008, Welsh domestic legislation on sustainability and the Paris agreement. I am not convinced by the case that the Minister outlined today about air passenger duty. I find it particularly curious that the Secretary of State, who has Cardiff airport in his constituency, just 15 minutes away from the boundaries of my own, is willing to oppose this idea. Expanding provision at Cardiff airport will lead to shorter journey times, less congestion, less traffic and less cost for consumers in Wales. It will generate jobs and opportunities for the Secretary of State’s constituents and mine, many of whom work in the airport and in the aerospace industry and supply industry locally.

On the idea that it takes just 60 minutes to get across to Bristol, I have travelled to and from Bristol airport on a number of occasions. I have travelled there by all the different modes of transport—I have driven in my car, I have taken the train to Bristol Temple Meads and caught the connecting bus, and I have taken the coach directly to the airport. Bristol airport is a very nice place and I had a very nice experience there. I have nothing bad to say about Bristol airport itself, but it is complicated to get there. It takes a long time. With Cardiff airport just 15 minutes down the road from my constituency and from our capital city, it seems odd that a Wales Office Minister—indeed, the Secretary of State—rather than getting the best deal for Wales, should stand up for an airport on the other side of the Severn bridge and encourage passengers to go over there.

There is a further issue. Ministers have talked about the opportunities for Welsh passengers to travel from Bristol airport. Those will remain, but we do not benefit as much from passengers coming from the south-west, for one very good reason: the Severn bridge tolls. Why would passengers choose to come across to Cardiff airport, which entails crossing a toll bridge, when they have an airport on their own doorstep? We need to think carefully about what is the right decision.

I was not an absolute believer in the original Welsh Government decision to get involved in running the airport. I admit I was a sceptic, but they did the right thing and their decision has borne fruit, as we heard. Passenger numbers are up 29%, as my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) said. A service has been launched to London to allow a connection to many of the international business flights from London City airport. Companies such as FlyBe are expanding their opportunities. It was good enough for the Welsh football team to travel in and out of Cardiff airport. I find it odd that the Minister and the Secretary of State appear to be more interested in protecting the position of Bristol, rather than doing what is right for Wales and especially for consumers in south Wales, who want to be able to travel from Cardiff airport and to connect.

That is particularly pertinent in light of the result of the EU referendum. If we want Wales to be able to take advantage of the global trade agreements that the Government are supposedly going to magic up for us in the next couple of years, we must enable businesses, especially larger ones, to connect to flights to the City of London and elsewhere quickly and efficiently, and not have to take two or three modes of transport to get to an airport quite far south of Bristol. We ought to make the most of our own airport on our own doorstep, which is at the hub of a thriving aerospace industry.

Let us not forget that we have the British Airways Maintenance Cardiff centre. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), I think, mentioned the length of the runway and the airport’s ability to handle the world’s largest aircraft. That is crucial. Could we not make more of those synergies with 777s and, we hope, with A380s and 747s, which are already maintained there and perhaps in future could fly from there as well?

I will support new clause 6 because it would benefit Wales, my constituency, Cardiff South and Penarth, and constituents in the Vale of Glamorgan, and it makes sense in terms of the efficiency and sustainability of air travel from Wales in the future.

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[Stephen Doughty]

I do not quite share the despondency of the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) about the state of the Bill and the devolution settlement, but I agreed with a number of the points he made and it is always a pleasure to listen to him speak.

I did not have the pleasure of serving on the Committee, but I have enjoyed taking part in the debates and scrutinising the Bill in the Chamber, especially on Report. I share other Members’ scepticism about whether this is really the final settlement. I think the Secretary of State and the Minister slightly over-egged the pudding when they suggested that this would be the end of the matter. We have seen Bill after Bill and change after change during this process, and while I am a firm supporter of devolution and of the innovation and positive differences it has brought to the people of Wales, in the end they will judge the devolution settlement by the impact it has on their lives. They will judge it, for example, according to whether there is fragmentation and confusion around cross-border services, financial arrangements or the interoperability of services across the border, particularly given the geographical proximity of Wales to England. For the populations involved, our situation is slightly different from that of Scotland.

I believe, as do the First Minister and many other colleagues, that the devolution process is not finished. We need a proper constitutional convention that looks not only at the settlement of powers but at funding arrangements and at how we resolve disputes in these islands. This is particularly important as we look at the question of devolution in England as well. We could end up with a completely asymmetric devolution settlement across the UK that would be cumbersome and unworkable. I do not want to see disputes being resolved in the Supreme Court or getting lost amid technical details because the issues are far too complex. We have seen that happen in relation to many individual issues. I remember the Welsh Affairs Committee looking at the provision of NHS services across the border and, rightly or wrongly, there is increasing confusion for patients travelling across, whether in relation to funding arrangements, records or other issues. In the end, the people of Wales—and the people of the United Kingdom —will judge devolution and the constitutional changes by applying these tests. Does this make things better for us? Do we feel more engaged? Do we understand what is going on?

We need to bear this in mind particularly as we deal with the atmosphere of the post-Brexit referendum. The Bill has many positive aspects, including the move to a reserved powers model and the devolution of powers in many areas. These are positive steps forward, but it would be a great tragedy if we were to give those new powers and responsibilities to Wales only to see the people and the Government of Wales emasculated in the Brexit negotiations. It has been suggested in some quarters, for example, that there will be no reference to decisions taken in the Welsh Assembly or to Welsh Government Ministers in what will be the most crucial constitutional negotiations this country has faced in decades. It would be perverse if powers were to be given with one hand while Wales’s future in many respects was taken away with another, whether in negotiations on agriculture or fisheries or in future trade deals. Unless we get the balance right for the role that devolved Governments and legislatures play in the process, we will make some serious mistakes.

I want to reiterate some of my previous points. We need fundamentally to reconsider the representation of the people of Wales. The boundary reforms are not being done fairly. There is the difference between the electoral register lists that the Boundary Commission have with worked with and registration levels for the European Union referendum, the fact that we continue to stack the House of Lords higher and higher while significantly cutting the number of Welsh MPs, and the lack of clarity about the future number of Assembly Members—potentially huge problems. I would like to see the House of Lords completely reformed with a strong regional and national element representing a new constitutional—and ultimately federal—settlement. That is how we can ensure the coherence of this United Kingdom and our constitution and ensure an understanding of how we can work together with difference, innovation and the special situation that devolution has delivered for the people of Wales.

I am pleased that the Bill is going forward, but this is not the end. Ultimately, the people of Wales will judge it on whether it makes things better for them and on whether they feel more engaged in the decisions that affect their lives.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.