Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Tuesday 2nd December 2025

(began 1 hour, 6 minutes ago)

14:36

Royal Assent: Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Act 2025; Property (Digital Assets etc) Act 2025; Animal Welfare (Import of Dogs, Cats and Ferrets) Act 2025; Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Act 2025

My My Lords, My Lords, I My Lords, I have My Lords, I have to My Lords, I have to notify My Lords, I have to notify the House in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that His Majesty the King has signified his Royal Assent to the following acts. Public Authorities, Fraud, Error and Recovery Act 2025. Property. Digital Assets is cetera. Act 2025. Animal welfare import of dogs, Cats and Ferrets Act 20 2025 and Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Act 2025.

And my Lords, I should like to notify the House of the retirement with effect from the 2nd of December of the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, pursuant to section one of the House of Lords Reform Act, 2014, and on behalf of the House, I

14:37

Oral questions: Cultural and heritage organisations: the right of consumers to cancel subscription contracts Lord Moynihan (Conservative)

should like to thank the noble Baroness for her much valued service to the House. For, first of all, question Lord Morgan. My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper. My Lords. Paper. My Lords.

14:37

Lord Leong (Labour)

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The government has consulted on how the new subscription rules will work under the digital markets, Competition and Consumer Consumers Act. This includes what happens when a consumer uses their cooling off right to cancel, and are carefully reviewing responses from cultural and heritage organisations. My officials have engaged directly with sector representatives and will continue to do so to ensure the final regulations reflect their concerns and support both consumer protection and organisational sustainability. sustainability.

14:38

Lord Moynihan (Conservative)

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My Lords, I've had a number of exchanges with the noble Lord, the Minister for which I'm very grateful. In considering next steps, will he take into account the worries expressed by charities, arts and heritage organisations about the inevitable decimation of their fundraising efforts? Would he agree? If you introduce the cooling off period set out in section 22 of the recently enacted DMCC immediately on signing up. This would allow thousands of people to join, say, art galleries, take advantage of the membership benefits of reduced admission fees to exhibitions over, say, a weekends holiday in London, and then allow them legally to cancel their memberships under the cooling off periods set out in section 22 of the new act, which will cripple their membership schemes as a fundraising model.

Currently worth hundreds of millions of pounds to charities across the UK every year. Would the government accelerate their consideration to exempt charities, museums, galleries and national heritage homes? Just as the government has exempted gambling contracts and society lotteries under section 22, in order to protect their fundraising efforts. efforts.

14:39

Lord Leong (Labour)

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My Lords, I mean, the noble Lord would know that under the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013, I mean, consumers already have a cooling off period for distance contracts. So this is not new for the sector itself. The digital content waiver is long established, and most charitable memberships are service contracts, not digital content. We did consult on extending the waiver as that would reduce consumer rights. Having said that, gambling is excluded due to the existing specialist regulations.

My Lords, we recognise the concerns raised by charities and heritage organisations about potential misuse and will continue to work closely with charities as we finalise the secondary legislation.

14:40

Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat)

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Section 267 gives the government a clear ability to use the regulating regulation, making powers to recognise the specific circumstances for particular services such as streaming, charitable memberships and of course, the news media. My Lords, does the government intend to make the distinctions between those different sectors, my Lords? And if so, will the government make sure that those streaming services, charitable sector, and indeed the news media are protected? My Lords, from early termination.

14:40

Lord Leong (Labour)

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The noble Lord makes a very interesting point. Let's let's look at a policy. I mean, basically what we're trying to do is the unwanted subscriptions that we're talking about, which are accounts at £1.6 billion a year. So this is regulation or this act itself actually will save consumer something like £14 a month and some close to about £147 million a year. So it look, as it stands now under consumer law, all charities or other charities have to comply with consumer law irrespective of charitable status itself.

And no companies currently, especially the digital service organisations, have got the legislation that's currently in place. So that will stay as it is. And as far as the cooling off period under the new act itself is just an extension from distance learning to in person.

14:41

The Earl of Devon (Crossbench)

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Count for the concerns of

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privately owned heritage. The majority of members of historic houses, for example, are neither charities nor large heritage organisations, yet they're wholly dependent upon subscriptions and membership for the preservation and membership for the preservation of our nationally significant heritage. And I note my interests as a member of historic houses.

14:41

Lord Leong (Labour)

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as a member of historic houses. I thank the Lord for that. Now, as far as heritage organisations concerned, it's up to the individual organisation itself as to how their business model is structured. If it's a subscription model for contract of services, then it falls in scope of this legislation and the cooling off period will apply. period will apply.

14:42

Lord Waldegrave of North Hill (Conservative)

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For my noble friend and also welcome the tone of the Minister's thoughtful reply. As a proud member of the British Museum scheme, I do think there is a loophole, an unintended consequence of the good intention of the act which does need support. So may I assure the Minister that he will have widespread support in this House, if he can find a way through this problem? Yes. problem? Yes.

14:42

Lord Leong (Labour)

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I think the noble Lord for that. And this is precisely why the government is taking its time. We have consulted widely. The consultation finished at the end of February. We are analysing the responses and because it actually has got various complexities, it also impacts on HMRC as far as gifted is concerned. So we've got to ensure that we get this absolutely right and we will make a decision in time in due course.

14:43

Lord Watts (Labour)

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While we're on this subject, isn't it the case that our regulators and our consumer rights are letting Britain down? And when we in what we call rip off Britain, don't we need to look at regulation and also and consumer rights in the whole and come forward with a package to actually address the problems? problems?

14:43

Lord Leong (Labour)

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My noble friend is absolutely right. I mean, as it stands, all consumers are protected under the Consumer Contracts Regulation, which basically allows consumers to have that cooling off period if they subscribe to a service online. What this legislation does is to extend it to subscription in person, so consumers will be protected under this legislation.

14:43

Lord Grayling (Conservative)

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As a trustee of the National Portrait Gallery. Can I say to the Minister, this is particularly important because the Red book last week shows that in the latter part of this decade, DCMS budget is going to fall, which means that public institutions are going to be under greater financial pressure. The last thing they need, therefore, is an issue of this kind. And can I offer my support to my noble friend and urge the Minister to do everything he can to get rid of this anomaly? this anomaly?

14:44

Lord Leong (Labour)

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I thank the Lord for that. It's precisely what we're doing. We are taking our time to consider the consultation. We're analysing the response and we have to get this right. I mean, charities to, as I said earlier, have to comply with current consumer protection regulation. And now I think as it stands, I mean most charities because they do not perhaps don't understand the implication of the Consumer Contracts Act have been claiming gift aid, even though their membership may be for a certain provision of services.

So we need to ensure that HMRC and DCMS and all that work through the technicalities so that we actually are not caught in this loophole which the noble Lord mentioned. which the noble Lord mentioned.

14:45

Lord Bird (Crossbench)

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Can I just ask, are you actually asking for reluctant subscribers to stay with you just because you're a charity? I find that really, really difficult to understand because we have to think of that person who goes in and looks at something and says, I don't really want to be a part of this and chooses and they should have a right to do that.

14:45

Lord Leong (Labour)

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Currently, every consumer has got a right to do that under the current consumer protection. They have a cooling off period of 14 days to cancel their subscription. If the subscription is done currently by distance subscription under the new act, if the subscription is taken up or renewed in person. The cooling off period is extended to 14 days, so consumers will have the right to cancel or stay within the subscription.

14:45

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)

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My Lords, the problem has been well set up by my noble friend Lord Moynihan and just repeated admirably by by the Minister. It is a problem that was identified when this now act was going through your Lordships' House, and at the time my noble friend Lord Offord of Garvel committed to close this loophole through secondary legislation. Of course, the elections interceded, but that is now a year and a half ago. This is a pressing issue, as we've heard, for organisations that are beset by cuts to the DCMS budget, the rising impact of National Insurance contributions and much more.

So will the Minister commit to working urgently to make sure this loophole is not open in a way that will affect so many arts and cultural and heritage organisations that are loved across the country.

14:46

Lord Leong (Labour)

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I know a lot for that, and I can assure the noble Lord that myself and my officials are working to ensure that we get this right under the new subscription regime will ensure that in particular situations, including after the contract automatically renews onto a 12 month subscription term. Consumers have a 14 day window to cancel it, so should any changes be needed. This secondary legislation will commit itself and will also be published in the secondary legislation, that it does not commence until autumn 2026, so there's plenty of time for charities and heritage organisations to put their, I suppose, house in order before this regime kicks in.

May I offer.

14:47

Lord Lansley (Conservative)

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The Minister an opportunity to be popular by moving the regulations further on online subscriptions, so that all of those who are subject to automatic renewals do not have to click more than twice in order to end a subscription that they don't want to retain.

14:47

Lord Leong (Labour)

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I thank the noble Lord for that kind suggestion, and I'm sure my officials are sending me a box. I've just heard him.

14:47

Oral questions: Adults with learning and communication difficulties: online communications for access to public services Lord Cashman (Non-affiliated)

Second oral question Lord Cashman my Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.

14:48

Lord Leong (Labour)

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My Lords, digital inclusion is a priority for this government, which is why we launched the Digital Inclusion Action Plan. It sets out immediate steps to boost inclusion for everyone, including people with disabilities in the NHS. We recognise that some patients may struggle or prefer not to use digital routes. That is why GP practices are required to maintain traditional methods of access. While digital health services are being designed to be inclusive, accessible and easy to navigate.

14:48

Lord Cashman (Non-affiliated)

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My Lord, I thank the noble Lords Minister for the reply, but the reality, I'm afraid, is very different. The negative effects on vulnerable people and people with learning difficulties accessing services online is deeply problematic. Many do not have access to the internet. Some cannot read or write. Others simply do not have capacity to deal with online programs and apps. Many are isolated in poor health and desperately in need of support, yet cannot get it because of these online obstacles.

So I ask the noble Lord, the Minister, will the government improve online access for these people and others and make it easily and widely available? Will they adopt more voice messaging, voice prompts as well as simple to use spoken menu options? And indeed, dare I say, my Lords, the option to speak to a human being. These issues of online access must be addressed if we are to tackle the hopelessness that is growing around access to public services, and particularly access to services within the NHS.

to services within the NHS.

14:49

Lord Leong (Labour)

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My Lord, I thank my noble friend for that. Look, we recognise that not everyone can manage complex digital systems. We acknowledge that. And some vulnerable people risk becoming cut off as services change. My departments across government are reviewing digital pathways to make them simpler, clearer and supported by voice prompts. As the noble Lord mentioned and voice activated tools, we are also expanding. Easy to navigate menus and keeping the option to speak to trained staff. We aim to give people the support they need and to keep every route open, not closed.

14:50

Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Labour)

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I wonder if I can intervene. As chair of the Digital Inclusion Action Committee. I've just spent the last hour talking with two subcommittee chairs. The Minister may want to know precisely about easier accessibility, but also about a report that has recently been done for people with learning difficulties. And we want to make sure that we start with where the person is and what their service needs are. And my goodness, I wish that that that is how public services have been organised so far before digital ever came in.

And what we are determined to do is give the government options. Firstly on accessibility, to make that much more straightforward, but also to make sure departments support carers as well as individuals in particular groups, so that they are able to get the best from whatever service they need in whatever service is going to suit them as individuals most effectively.

14:51

Lord Leong (Labour)

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Well, firstly, may I thank my noble friend for all the work that she's doing on the Digital Inclusion Inclusion Action Committee, and she's absolutely right. I mean, she's bringing all the leaders from government, industry and voluntary sector to shape our national response to digital inclusion. And her committee is currently setting out its priorities and gathering insights from across the UK to inform recommendations to the government. And the government have set up the Inclusion Action Plan with a focus on practical action, and I emphasise practical actions that make a difference to people's lives.

14:52

Baroness Hollins (Crossbench)

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I know. life. More than half are disabled people. And of course, the barriers created by digital approaches everywhere increase those barriers that disabled people face. What steps is the government taking specifically to ensure that the NHS app is accessible to people who have learning and communication difficulties, and to ensure that NHS services are still available to those who cannot use digital means of communication. of communication.

14:52

Lord Leong (Labour)

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I thank the noble Baroness for that and as I mentioned in my earlier comment, I mean, we are not closing off any of the options that are available, whether the the voice activated system or speaking to a human being. I mean, the option is still there. We we know that millions of people in the UK are still unable to take part in this increasingly digital society, and that digital exclusion falls hardest on disabled people. We recognise that, and that's why this government is committed to improving digital inclusion for everybody.

In August, we've launched 9.5 million Digital Inclusion Innovation Fund, which supports community projects across the country and helps people build the skills and confidence they need to get online.

14:53

Lord Hayward (Conservative)

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My Lords, can I pick up on the comment by Lord Cashman. people, voice to voice, blind spots exist in the web. The web crashes on many occasions. So it is not those unfortunate people who are disabled or don't have links who lose contact with vital services. It can on many occasions be far broader, and every service should have the access to a human talking to a human. Yeah, absolutely. to a human. Yeah, absolutely.

14:54

Lord Leong (Labour)

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My Lords, I mean, digital progress must never, never mean less choice. The NHS continues to provide face to face routes, telephone access and supported appointments for those who really need them or to need them. We are investing in accessible contact centres, clearer phone menus and trained staff who can actually guide patients through the next steps. At the same time, we are also improving simpler digital options for those who want them. So, in line with the action plan, we are keeping non-digital routes open and strengthening assisted support.

14:55

Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)

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The Minister.

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Needs a reality check for many people, moving to digital is not people, moving to digital is not acceptable and the NHS ten year plan moves from analogue to digital and more services. Moving to the and more services. Moving to the NHS app for people with a learning disability. Issues regarding poor disability. Issues regarding poor communication. At present only come to light inquest's not through to light inquest's not through central government monitoring. So could I ask the noble Lord, the Minister, what new central government monitoring will the government introduce to make sure that existing communication meets vulnerable people's needs, rather

14:55

Lord Leong (Labour)

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vulnerable people's needs, rather than moving to digital, which will cause further problems? Noble makes an interesting point and that's why I mentioned earlier my noble friend Baroness Armstrong is working right across government departments, bringing everybody together, looking at what's available and ensuring that nobody is excluded from digital services. And as I said earlier, the current situation where someone can actually speak to a human being is still there and will be there, and also voice activated menus will still exist.

still exist.

14:56

Lord Markham (Conservative)

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So I, I'm a big believer in the use of AI and digital communications to improve public services for everyone in the NHS and elsewhere. At the same time, I am aware that groups with learning difficulties are in danger of being left behind. But the way, of course, to square the circle is to make sure they're involved every step of the way in the design of these services, whether they're analogue or digital, and using things such as AI to have voice activated conversations.

And the Netherlands Ministry of Health is the kind of probably number one player in this involving people learning difficulties and every step of the way can we make sure we do the same with our services?

14:56

Lord Leong (Labour)

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Thank you for that. I mean, it's not only the Netherlands. I mean, there are other countries in Europe, for example Estonia as well. I mean, look, let's not forget that the UK government is committed to ensuring that our adoption of AI across the public sector is ethical, safe and responsible. I mean, the Government Digital Services suite of responsible data and AI tools like the data and AI ethics framework, helps teams across government to build and display AI in the right way.

And our ambition really is for AI to directly benefit working people by improving their health care and education and how citizens interact with the government and open up new opportunities, as the noble Lord mentioned, rather than just threatens our traditional patterns of work.

14:57

The Lord Bishop of Hereford (Bishops)

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My Lords, the passion displayed in this House for digital inclusion is extraordinarily commendable. But could I say to the Minister that these difficulties are compounded in rural areas by very, very poor connectivity? Many areas endure significant restrictions in broadband connectivity and mobile connectivity, and this compounds the problems. What steps are the government taking to ensure that good connectivity is rolled out across the whole country?

14:58

Lord Leong (Labour)

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right reverend Prelate it makes a very, very important point. Poor connectivity must not limit access to healthcare. The government's roll out of improved broadband and mobile coverage is continuing, with priority given to rural communities in peril. The NHS provides telephone access, face to face appointments and paper based communications for those who need it. We are increasing support through community venues such as libraries and outreach centres. No patient, no patient should miss care because the digital signal is unreliable or not.

14:58

Oral questions: The British Embassy in Damascus Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Labour)

There. The oral question Lord Watson of Invergowrie my Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper. Paper.

14:59

Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Labour)

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My Lords, we are regular visitors to Damascus through the Special Representative for Syria and recent visits from the Minister for the Middle East and the former Foreign Secretary. We continue to engage with the new Syrian government and are committed to supporting them in delivering a more stable, free and prosperous future for the Syrian people. We're exploring options for a more permanent presence in Damascus and how we can engage further.

14:59

Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Labour)

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I thank my noble friend for that response and I note the positive tone. She will be aware that President Trump has already met twice with President al-Sharaa, most recently at the white House last month. And she will also know that Germany, Italy and Spain are among 12 European countries that have already re-established diplomatic relations, but that none of the permanent members of the UN Security Council have done so. Can I suggest that it would be a way of further enhancing the Prime Minister's reputation on the international stage, if he were to do so on behalf of his government, and encourage the other permanent members to do so also?

15:00

Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Labour)

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I do take my noble friend's question as a note of encouragement to the government to accelerate progress towards establishing a presence in Damascus, and to going further than we already have in our relationship that we're building with the new government in Syria. And I thank him, too, for his his kind comments about the Prime Minister's standing on the world stage. I think he's right. stage. I think he's right.

15:00

Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Conservative)

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To reply. Could I ask her to consider maintaining the very strong embassy we now have in Lebanon? At the moment you go to Damascus, as I have done recently through Lebanon, and we have a magnificent Foreign Office team there, many of whom who also served in Baghdad. This imperative, this embassy, there is a very, very strong hub for all of our Middle East work. Mike. Minister, consider. Continue to strengthen that despite the supposed weakness of funding to the FCDO, which we would all regret.

15:01

Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Labour)

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We do have, as she says, an incredibly strong team in Lebanon. And it's important that we continue to do that. And I think that the points that she makes about the need for a regional approach here and the the instability that we want to avoid and the importance of our presence there across the region, I think that is a point that she's made very, very well. her.

15:01

Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)

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Can the Minister explain how UK spending in Syria is helping to build stability and tackle the humanitarian crisis, and what would it take? What steps are required to reopen the embassy, given that Syria have reopened their embassy in London? Could you also explain how the government can maintain support for Syria, Ukraine, Gaza and Sudan and still maintain significant engagement with sub-Saharan Africa? sub-Saharan Africa?

15:02

Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Labour)

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I mean, there's a lot in that. On the on the humanitarian question to begin with, we work we don't work directly on humanitarian issues at the moment through the government in Syria, for reasons that I think noble Lords will understand. But we we do work through NGOs and the United Nations. And the moment that's that's the right approach to take. But we do look forward to a time when we can have a more normalised and a presence in Damascus, and on all the things that you would normally associate with government to government relations and diplomatic relations that we would seek to have.

And on the issue of how we can spend the same as we have in Syria while protecting Sudan, Ukraine and Gaza and of course, the overseas territories as well. And the truth of this is we can't but actually, in a modern development partnership, the test of your effectiveness and your impact isn't the pound sign next to your Oda budget, it's the quality of your relationships. It's your diplomatic presence. It's your defence and security relationships. It's your political links. All of these things matter hugely.

And actually the the volume of spend that you're able to to mobilise through the multilateral system, not least through the world Bank and other multilateral development banks, far exceeds anything that we could have ever put forward as a bilateral Oda programme.

15:03

Lord Callanan (Conservative)

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My Lords. residence in Damascus some seven months ago. The UK government has, the noble Lady has said, is taking a somewhat more circumspect approach. Could she outline the reasons for that? Is it based on

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legal advice? For what reasons are Ministers hesitant to proceed? I mean, it's not based on legal

15:03

Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Labour)

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I mean, it's not based on legal advice, as far as I'm aware. I think it's just making sure that we do things in a way that's do things in a way that's successful and sustainable. And I think one of the points that I would make about this is it just shows, I think the reason we're so reluctant to withdraw from a city or from a country, because once you've withdrawn and once you no longer have that embassy, it's very, very difficult.

And it always takes time to re-establish that presence. Welcome.

15:04

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (Crossbench)

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MGR maintain that there are 16 million Syrians in Syria in need of humanitarian assistance. UK charities are seeking to help. Does the Minister agree that it would help them if we reopen the embassy in Damascus?

15:04

Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Labour)

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Well, I think everybody agrees that it would be a positive step, but I we do have a special representative in Syria and snow, and as I say, we we continue because like he says, there is huge humanitarian need still in Syria. And very many Syrians living in in Jordan recently speaking to Syrian refugees who would like to return home, but they want to feel that there would be safe and secure, that education would be available for their children, healthcare would be available.

And in too many parts of Syria, still, that is not the situation. So there is a huge amount of work to do, and we

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continue to play our full part in rebuilding Syria. Lord Singh can I ask my noble friend, the Minister, does the government have concern about the seeming resurgence of ISIL and what

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is actually being done about that? Yeah. One of the we of course, and we we take our counter-terrorism work in Syria and elsewhere incredibly seriously. One of the best things that we can do for Syria and for that we can do for Syria and for the wider region is to do everything we can to make sure that everything we can to make sure that Syria has a stable government with inclusive politics and that the, inclusive politics and that the, the, the improvements that we're seeing continue.

This is the best chance we've had for Syria in a very, very long time. And the the threats that he refers to, I think we need to work collaboratively with our partners and allies, as he would expect. But vital to this is maintaining a secure and stable government in Syria.

15:06

Lord Alton of Liverpool (Crossbench)

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Context of. throughout the region. Will the noble Baroness say something about the position of minorities in Syria who have suffered genocide in the past, and recent attacks on Alawites and Druze in particular, should give pause for concern? Will she make it a priority of our diplomatic presence in Damascus, diplomatic presence in Damascus, that we will champion the position of the minorities, guaranteeing the real long term stability of that country? Yeah. country? Yeah.

15:06

Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Labour)

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That's a very, very important point. And we were deeply concerned, as I know, members were across this House at some of the events we've we saw in last summer, particularly as he says, targeting Alawites and Druze communities. We were very clear with the government in Syria about our commitment to freedom of religion or belief, and that we expect the the new government to be inclusive, representative and for them to take actions that we would all expect them to take when we see breaches and when things occur that need to be responded to, and the government needs to take a leading role in making sure that this sort of violence and victimisation is not allowed to persist in Syria.

15:07

Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)

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I mentioned.

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In other. Countries, and we know that a significant number of them have attempted to get to this country by one means or another. Does that not give Her Majesty's Government, given its current policy on immigrants, legal and irregular, a immigrants, legal and irregular, a real incentive to invest in making Syria not only a more stable country, but a country which has a country, but a country which has a greater respect for human rights and social stability within its own

15:08

Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Labour)

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country. In particular rights for women. Well, I'm very proud of the role

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Well, I'm very proud of the role that this country played in hosting many Syrians at a time of desperate need during the Assad regime. And many Syrians came here. They set up businesses. They made lives themselves. And now it is true that many do wish to return because they want to be part of the rebuilding of their country, and they're very proud of of what they hope will be the future of their country. And I think it's not the sole reason.

There are many, many reasons why we want to play our part in supporting the security and stability and prosperity for Syria, which is why we lifted sanctions very early on after the fall of Assad. But like you said, you know, it is good if people who wish to return home are able to do so safely and in a way that enables them to rebuild their lives properly.

15:09

Oral questions: Timeframe for reassessing overpayments of Carer’s Allowance in line with the recommendations of the Independent Review of Carer’s Allowance Overpayments. Baroness Pitkeathley (Labour)

Fourth oral question. the Order Paper and acknowledge the government's positive response to the recommendations in the independent review.

15:09

Baroness Sherlock (Labour)

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My Lords, the government accepts that between 2015 and summer 2025, the guidance on whether and how to average earnings in Carer's Allowance did not accurately reflect the statutory position. We will therefore be reassessing earnings related overpayment cases which occurred between 2015 and September 2025, where it is found that overpayments were lower than originally calculated. Carers will have their debts reduced or cancelled entirely, with government refunding any money already paid. We will set out plans for doing We will set out plans for doing this in early 2026.

15:10

Baroness Pitkeathley (Labour)

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I thank my noble friend for that response and for her patience at my persistence after the problems for carers were ignored for so long by the previous administration, and after systems did not respond to the clear evidence about the distress calls. Carers naturally have a high level of mistrust about how their benefits are administered. Does my noble friend agree that building that trust, rebuilding that trust must be a priority and that any changes must be completely transparent with carers consulted Yeah.

Yeah.

15:10

Baroness Sherlock (Labour)

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I thank my noble friend for that question and for her work. I want to pay tribute to the millions of unpaid carers across this country. The government values them and the work they do greatly. Carers are also fortunate to have some excellent advocates, including many members of this House, and I think probably we would all acknowledge supreme among the my noble friend who's work in this area has for so very long been been recognised by all of us. My Lords, it Carer's Allowance provides support to around a million people and for most of those who receive it, the experience is positive and the rules are clear.

But my noble friend is right. When we came into government, it became clear that there were far too many cases where working carers have been left with large overpayments to be repaid.

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