Safeguarding Children: British Overseas Territories
Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts(8 years ago)
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Baroness Benjamin
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress is being made to safeguard children in the British Overseas Territories.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, the UK Government work closely with the territories to promote the welfare of children in their jurisdictions, where the protection of children’s rights remains primarily the responsibility of territory Governments. There has been steady progress but more work is needed. In December, OT leaders committed to lead national responses and ensure child-centred, co-ordinated approaches to safeguarding. The UK Government continue to work with territory Governments on this important agenda.
Baroness Benjamin (LD)
I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer. However, we all know that the British Overseas Territories are not the only places where child sex abuse is happening. When I visited some of those territories recently, I found that they are in denial that this abuse is happening; it is a taboo subject. Children are suffering in silence. How are the Government not only encouraging and supporting all the overseas territories to sign up to the road map but also exchanging information on safeguarding to tackle this major problem, thereby helping, protecting and educating children, so that they grow up free from the fear of sexual abuse?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that this is not specific to the overseas territories; it is a global problem and requires all of us to take responsibility for looking at how we can resolve it and take practical measures. I pay tribute to her work as a parliamentarian and outside Parliament on these matters.
In practical terms, we have established a dedicated child safeguarding unit to co-ordinate our support to the OT authorities; specifically in relation to her Question, we have decided that in addition to financial support, professional staff and technical support, we will shortly launch a cross-OT child safeguarding network, which will fulfil our commitment made at the Joint Ministerial Council. That is the body through which we can share the latest sector developments in child protection, as the noble Baroness requests.
Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)
My Lords, in this country we are fortunate in having a strong voluntary sector which operates in the field of safeguarding children. Is there any equivalent voluntary sector in the overseas territories that does the same type of job in safeguarding?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the noble Baroness raises an important point. The overseas territories are of course very diverse in their population level and engagement in civil society organisations and NGOs. There are international NGOs that can assist in this and, in some areas, there are local ones. For example, there was a notable achievement in Bermuda, where the Government partnered a local NGO, Saving Children and Revealing Secrets. This was done last year to deliver child sexual abuse training across the whole island. We support CSOs and NGOs wherever we can and help them to develop because, in some areas where they feel isolated, it is very difficult.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)
My Lords, I am sure that the Minister will join me in congratulating ChildLine, as it reaches its 30th year, on the work that it has done to ensure that helplines are available not only in this country but by developing the international helpline organisation in many countries across the world. What are the Government doing additionally to help adults to have helplines? The Lucy Faithfull Foundation has its own helpline for adults but unless we can tackle adults and get them to come forward then it is left to the children to do so, and that is not where the issue should be left.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
In this case, too, the noble Baroness raises an important issue of ensuring that those who are abused—the children—have a voice but that those who are the abusers are also able to seek information and be persuaded that that is not the behaviour which they should perpetrate. I know that a number of overseas territories have expressed a desire to establish a private and confidential counselling service for vulnerable children and young people, along the ChildLine model that the noble Baroness explained. With regard to working with adults, we can do that work through our support to NGOs and CSOs and also through DfID, in the support that we give to promoting education about the way to change adults’ attitude towards social norms.
Lord Naseby (Con)
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that Her Majesty’s Government are to be congratulated on the relationship between the overseas territories and the relevant departments here in the UK? I speak from first-hand experience of the Cayman Islands, where I declare an interest—
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the Cayman Islands has commissioned a UK children’s services professional to look at raising standards and safeguarding. I hope that other islands will follow that example.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister referred to the responsibility of the British Government in relation to the 17 overseas territories but of course the principles of the rule of law, openness and transparency are vital. Can she therefore explain why the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is not pressing for a central register of ownership, open to the public, so that all can see how beneficial ownership operates in these territories?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I know that we have a somewhat generous approach to interpreting the words before us on the Order Paper, but may I urge the noble Lord to direct his question at me again when we reach the point next Wednesday at which the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, has a Question on the Order Paper that will give me the opportunity to answer him?
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, the Minister is no doubt aware that some of the overseas territories have laws on family issues which are considerably behind the laws of this country. To what extent are the Government giving assistance to having a modern version of the Children Act in some of those countries?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
The noble and learned Baroness has long professional experience in these matters. In October last year, our Solicitor-General chaired a successful conference of overseas territories Attorneys-General. This was to provide an important forum for encouraging progress on our priorities for the OTs and delivering our obligations for supporting the rule of law and the administration of justice, including matters of reform such as those she refers to.
Palestinian Authority Television
Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts(8 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Polak (Con)
I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and give notice to the House of my non-financial registered interest as president of CFI.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, we regularly raise incitement with the Palestinian Authority. The Minister for the Middle East, Tobias Ellwood, did so during his visit to the region in February. The UK’s consul-general to Jerusalem last discussed incitement with President Abbas on 17 March, including our concerns about television broadcasts. We also raise incitement with Israel. We encourage the revival of a tripartite committee on incitement to address precisely these issues.
Lord Polak
I thank the Minister for her Answer. Since September 2015, ironically, 34 Israelis have been killed in terror attacks and there have been 206 stabbings, 83 shootings and 42 car rammings. Is the Minister aware that only three weeks ago—on 1 March—on a programme on the official PATV called “Children’s Talk”, a young girl recited a poem which included the line: “To war, that will smash the oppressor and destroy the Zionist soul”? Can the Minister be certain that this sort of appalling incitement is not supported directly or indirectly by the British taxpayer? On the day after the atrocities and shocking acts in Brussels, where another 34 innocent lives were snuffed out, will the Minister join me in condemning incitement and terror, wherever they occur?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I do indeed join my noble friend in condemning incitement and terrorism wherever they occur. It was a mark of respect from this House that at 11 am today we had one minute’s silence in memory of the appalling events with the murder of those in Brussels. I know the Prime Minister has said that we will do all we can to help there. I also note that both President Abbas and Prime Minister Netanyahu expressed their opposition to the terrorism that had taken place in Brussels.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, if I may just answer the mainstay of my noble friend’s question, he asked about expenditure by the British taxpayer. No expenditure by the British taxpayer supports any form of incitement or terrorism, either in Israel or in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. We support projects that support peace, such as the project by the NGO Kids Creating Peace, which brings together young Israelis and Palestinians to learn why peace works.
Lord Winston
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I have a film clip on my computer—I am happy to show it to her—which shows a little girl aged three and a half saying on Saudi television that she hates Jews because they are apes and monkeys, and this is what is repeated in the Koran? Then, straight to camera, the announcer says, “Is Allah to be praised that, Bismillah, this little girl, has such supporters after her?”. This was broadcast across a whole range of Arab countries. Will the Minister perhaps join me in condemning this kind of broadcast quite publicly? I am happy to send her the film.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, noble Lords around the House have made me aware of matters of incitement that have been broadcast, not only on television and media outside the Occupied Territories and Israel but within both. We give no equivalence to incitement, whether it is against those who are Israelis or those who are in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. What we say is that incitement is wrong.
Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, I am reluctant to enter into a tit-for-tat argument but is the Minister aware of a devastating report by two Israeli organisations into the recent abuse and torture of Palestinian prisoners at the Shikma interrogation facility in Ashkelon? If so, will the Government consider joining our European partners in making appropriate representations to the Israeli Government?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, our diplomats in Israel make regular representations of concern about events there. As I have already said, we draw no equivalence with regard to incitement and activity. We say that it is important for those who want to achieve peace to ensure that they work together. It is only by negotiating a peace that we can achieve it; incitement is an enemy of peace.
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill
My Lords, the Minister has mentioned the consul-general in east Jerusalem and our diplomats there. Can she tell the House what representations have been or will be made to the consul-general following the International Women’s Day message on the official Palestinian Authority TV channel on 7 March this year, which urged Palestinian women to remember the terrorist Dalal Mughrabi who led the lethal coastal massacre which killed 38 Israelis, including 13 children?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I am able to give a little detail about the most recent contacts, which might help the noble Lord. In January, Her Majesty’s consul-general in Jerusalem met Fatah Central Committee member Jibril Rajoub, who had called the recent attacks there “heroic”. Our consul-general also met the Minister of Health, Jawad Awwad. The ministry had issued a statement praising the Tel Aviv New Year’s Day shooter, Nashat Melhem.
As for television, the director of pro-Israeli NGO Palestinian Media Watch describes decades-long propaganda campaigns on PA-sponsored children’s programmes which depict Jews and Israelis as enemies of God. Her Majesty’s consul-general in Jerusalem has raised this with the Palestinian Authority as part of broader lobbying on incitement since this Question was tabled. I thought it would be helpful to update the noble Lord on that.
Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)
My Lords, raising the matter of incitement, to use the noble Baroness’s word, does not seem to have had much effect. Will she remind the House of the amount of aid that we give the Palestinian Authority, both directly and via EU projects? Will she consider saying clearly to the Palestinian Authority that it is quite unacceptable for it to be taking British public money on the one hand and, on the other, using its own resources to subsidise networks that produce the propaganda in favour of terrorism that we have heard quoted in the House today?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the noble Lord is correct to point out that, through DfID, we provide significant humanitarian aid to the people who are suffering in Gaza. It is conditional on the basis that it goes only to people in need. The Palestinian Authority should make best efforts to resume control of Gaza and re-engage in discussions with Israel about how peace may be achieved.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, there is no justification for terrorism or for the actions that we saw yesterday. We unequivocally condemn them. The Minister is absolutely right. Our focus is on keeping the two-state solution and hopes for peace alive. We need to invest in interfaith, intercommunity activity. Will she commit to doing more of this because, at the moment, it is extremely limited?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I whole- heartedly agree with the noble Lord. During the early part of this year, we reopened bids for the Magna Carta Fund for Human Rights and Democracy, which is FCO-based. It has been doubled this year to its highest ever level. We will welcome bids if they qualify for support. The noble Lord is right; we need to do more to help.
LGBTI: Human Rights Conference
Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts(8 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Barker
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representatives they intend to send to the forthcoming 2016 Global LGBTI Human Rights Conference to be co-hosted by the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Government of Uruguay in Uruguay.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, the composition of the UK’s delegation at the conference in July is not yet finalised. It is expected to include selected officials with experience of working on LGB and T human rights issues, for example from DfID and the UK’s mission to the United Nations in Geneva. The chargé d’affaires at the British embassy in Montevideo will also attend.
Baroness Barker (LD)
I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer. Under the previous Government, DfID built up a great deal of expertise on handling sensitive issues across social, political and religious lines. This conference is an opportunity to leverage that expertise with other international donors and the private sector. Will the noble Baroness tell us what the Government plan to announce at the conference regarding the implementation of DfID’s new approach to LGBT rights?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I am not able at this stage to say what is going to be announced as far ahead as July. As the noble Baroness will realise, these matters are usually announced at the event itself. But I can say, to assist her, that DfID has assured me that it recognises that the realisation of human rights underpins sustainable development and that across its work it will seek to protect the human rights of LGB and T people and ensure that all groups are able to share in the benefits of development regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity. That will underpin the announcements it makes in July.
Lord Cashman (Lab)
My Lords, I have to express some concern that there is no clarity about who is responsible for LGBTI issues, either within DfID or at the Foreign Office. Given this very important conference taking place in Montevideo, I ask the Government to reconsider their position and follow the lead given by President Barack Obama and the Labour Party and appoint a global LGBT envoy—or, at the very least, a Minister to lead on these important issues.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I lead on issues of equality and human rights at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and I have the great advantage of knowing that, around the world, there are 267 Foreign and Commonwealth Office posts and that the heads of those missions, whether they be ambassadors or high commissioners, play a very strong role in promoting equality and human rights, paying particular attention to LGBTI issues. I might add that during my visits last week to Colombia and to Panama I saw this at first hand.
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)
It is comforting to hear the noble Baroness commit the Government to human rights. Can we be certain that when it comes to considering the application of Turkey for membership of the European Union there will be a similar, wholehearted commitment, all in accordance with the Copenhagen criteria?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
The noble Lord makes an extremely important point. We have made it clear to Turkey that accession to the European Union comes only to those countries that abide by human rights rules. Of course, Turkey would have to do that. We are concerned about some of the human rights violations which have taken place, particularly with regard to freedom of expression. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister made that clear at recent meetings.
Lord Lexden (Con)
How much priority are the Government giving to their objective of securing the decriminalisation of homosexuality in the many countries where it remains against the law?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My noble friend is right to raise this. The UK Government believe that laws to criminalise consensual same-sex relations are wrong and should be changed and this underpins the work that we do, both as Ministers and throughout our posts around the world. We have, of course, carried out a lot of lobbying on this and I am very pleased to see that Mozambique recently changed its penal code so that “acts against nature”, which had previously been widely interpreted as homosexuality, have now been decriminalised.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)
Would the Minister say that there were some positive results from the recent Commonwealth conference, and will she ensure that those who go to the next conference take those positive results with them?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
Indeed. That is a very important point. Both my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, David Cameron, and my noble friend Lady Verma, the DfID Minister, raised these issues at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting. In fact, my noble friend Lady Verma held a side event on these very issues. I have undertaken to take these matters forward at the Human Rights Council and in the United Nations.
Lord Scriven (LD)
Will the Minister advise the House whether, since the 2015 general election, as part of the official development assistance programme, a budget has been allocated specifically to LGBT issues? If so, what is the criteria for bids against that budget?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, funding from the Government with regard to promoting equality of action comes not only from DfID but from other sources: for example, from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I explained earlier that DfID has ensured that equality for LGBTI people will underpin the work it does generally and will always be considered when funds are to be disbursed. There is no specific hived-off part of the funds, as far as I am aware—if I am wrong I will, of course, write to the noble Lord—but I point out that this year the Foreign Office has doubled its Magna Carta fund for human rights and democracy to £10.6 million, which is the most we have ever had. I understand that bids are already coming in for LGBTI projects.
Lord Fowler (Con)
My Lords, would it not be a good idea if a government Minister from either DfID or the Foreign Office attended this conference as well as officials? I say this because no Minister from either department turned up at the last two world AIDS conferences. That was a great pity.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I will certainly take back my noble friend’s view to the FCO for consideration. I am, of course, aware that because this event is being co-hosted by the Governments of the Netherlands and Uruguay, their Ministers will be there. As far as I am aware, other attendees are intended to be officials but I will take further advice on that.
Turkey: Zaman Newspaper
Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Sharkey
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the Government of Turkey about the seizure of the Zaman newspaper.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, we regularly underline the importance of freedom of expression and all fundamental freedoms as part of our dialogue with the Turkish Government. On Monday, the Prime Minister raised concerns about press freedoms with Turkey’s Prime Minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, underlining the importance of protections for a free press and human rights in Turkey. As a friend and ally, we urge the Turkish Government to uphold the right of media to operate without restriction.
Lord Sharkey (LD)
I have been a committed friend of Turkey for 40 years or so, but I now see a country where journalists are imprisoned, the media are persecuted, the Constitutional Court’s rulings are openly criticised by the President, and the main opposition newspaper is seized. Dissent and disagreement are seen as crimes, human rights violations are widespread, and it all seems to be getting worse. Does the Minister think that Turkey can be trusted to respect the human rights of all the refugees, including Kurds, who are to be returned to its care under the EU plan?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I stress that the EU plan has not yet been finalised. It was raised in the margins of the summit and indeed after the summit had formally concluded. President Tusk will, within 10 days, be concluding what the agreement looks like. However, the noble Lord makes a very valid point, whatever agreement may or may not be reached. The answer to it is that Turkey has already shown extraordinary generosity in hosting 2.6 million refugees from Syria and another 600,000 from other countries. It has already shown that it can be trusted to deliver a change of legislation whereby those refugees are able to work in Turkey, and during the next school year every Syrian child will be able to get access to education. We will hold it to any agreements.
Lord Morris of Aberavon
My Lords, has any estimate been made, to the nearest million, of the number of Turks who might be eligible to enter the European Union—and, ultimately, the United Kingdom—without visas?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord refers to one of the issues that was under discussion after the summit had concluded its official session on Monday. The question of whether visa restrictions will be lifted within the Schengen area is now being considered and a proposal will be brought forward at the next European Council meeting, which I believe will be on 16 or 17 March. I repeat that that is for the Schengen area only and not for here, and therefore I suggest that it is a little premature to try to estimate how many Turks will avail themselves of it.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, will my noble friend, through the Prime Minister, tell the German Chancellor and others that it is completely unacceptable and utterly bonkers to think that it is appropriate to export back to Turkey migrants who have come to Europe in return for Turkey being able to send people to this country?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the proposal itself is welcome in that, in outline as it stands, it would break the business model enjoyed by the most evil people that I can think of beyond Daesh—the human traffickers who make people’s lives a misery by promising a life in Europe as the automatic result of getting on a leaky boat in the Mediterranean and risking their life, along with the lives of their children. I absolutely understand my noble friend’s point and I assure him that the Prime Minister will bear in mind the concerns that underlie his question.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)
My Lords, does not the Minister agree that the best way of bringing effective and continuing pressure on the Turkish Government over matters of press freedom and human rights is to open some new chapters in their accession negotiations, which would provide real leverage on Turkey? The failure to do so has meant that the EU’s leverage has been very weak in recent years.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
The noble Lord makes a very strong point. The 35 chapters of the accession negotiations were opened in 2005, and progress through them has indeed been taking some time. It is a matter of further discussion whether and how further chapters might be opened. Clearly, requests are being made by Turkey, but the noble Lord’s point is right: it provides leverage.
Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)
My Lords, in the light of the opening of these chapters and the negotiations that will flow from that, will the issues of press freedom, freedom of speech and human rights be part of those discussions? Turkey is in a very difficult and volatile situation, given the war and all those refugees on its doorstep. I ask for an assurance that that is not lost in the European Union’s keenness to keep all the refugees in Turkey.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I can give that assurance. The Prime Minister made that point very clearly during the summit itself and ensured that language on that was included in the summit’s published conclusions.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, is it an unspoken, unwritten part of the deal under discussion that we moderate our criticism of the authoritarian tendencies of the current Turkish Government?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
No, my Lords. Human rights underpin all the work of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, as I made clear when I appeared before the Foreign Affairs Committee of another place recently. We will never hold back from speaking out or from holding people to account on the important issues of the Copenhagen agreement, whereby democracy and the rule of law underpin everything.
European Union: United Kingdom Membership
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Baroness Anelay of St Johns
That this House takes note of Her Majesty’s Government’s policy paper The best of both worlds: the United Kingdom’s special status in a reformed European Union presented to Parliament pursuant to section 6 of the European Union Referendum Act 2015.
The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Anelay of St Johns, I beg to move the Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.
European Union
Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made a short while ago in another place by my right honourable friend David Lidington. The Statement is as follows:
“Mr Speaker, at about 11:35 this morning the President of the European Council, Mr Donald Tusk, published a set of draft texts about the United Kingdom’s renegotiation. He has sent these to all EU Governments for them to consider ahead of the February European Council. This is a complex and detailed set of documents that MPs will understandably wish to read and study in detail. With that in mind, subject to your agreement, the Prime Minister will offer an Oral Statement tomorrow following PMQs to allow MPs to question him, having first had a chance to digest the detail on the papers that have been issued in the last hour.
The Government have been clear that the EU needs to be reformed if it is to meet the challenges of the 21st century. The British people have very reasonable concerns about the UK’s membership of the EU and the Prime Minister is determined to address those. He believes that reforms that Britain is seeking will not just benefit Britain but the EU as a whole. So our approach in government has been one of reform, renegotiation and then a referendum. We are working together with other countries to discuss and agree reforms, many of which will benefit the entire EU, before holding a referendum to ensure British people have a final and decisive say about our membership.
The House will recall that the Prime Minister made a Statement after the December Council. At that meeting, leaders agreed to work together to find mutually satisfactory solutions in all four areas at the European Council in February. The Prime Minister’s meetings in Brussels on 29 January and his dinner with President Tusk on 31 January were steps in that negotiation process.
We are in the middle of a live negotiation and are now entering a particularly crucial phase. The Government have been clear throughout that they cannot provide a running commentary on the renegotiations, but I am able to say that much progress has been made in recent days, and it appears that a deal is within sight. The publication of the text is another step in that process, but I would stress to the House that there is still a lot of work to be done. If the text tabled today is agreed by all member states, it will deliver significant reforms in each of the four areas of greatest concern to the British people.
On sovereignty, the text shows significant advances towards securing a UK carve-out from ever closer union. On relations between the euro-ins and euro-outs, the document offers steps towards significant safeguards for countries outside the eurozone as euro members integrate further. On competitiveness, we are seeking a greater commitment by the entire Union for completing single market trade and cutting job-destroying regulations on business. On free movement, there are important ideas in President Tusk’s drafts for reducing the pull factor of our welfare system and on action to address the abuse of freedom of movement of persons. We believe that real progress has been made, but I would stress that more work still needs to be done and more detail to be nailed down before we can say that a satisfactory deal has been secured”.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Answer to the Urgent Question and for her diligence in keeping your Lordships’ House informed. We understand that it must be embarrassing that this was not a Statement from the Government to Parliament. The Prime Minister is today making his statement to journalists and Ministers had to be summoned to the Dispatch Box through an Urgent Question in the other place to ensure that Parliament is properly informed. I realise that the Minister says that there will be an Oral Statement tomorrow, but she also said that this is a complex set of documents that MPs will understandably wish to read and study in detail. I hope they are able to do that overnight, because most of them will not be able to look at and absorb such a complex and detailed set of documents in order to hold a full debate tomorrow. It would have been helpful if the Government could have made a process Statement today.
Perhaps I may ask the Minister a few questions. First, given that the Prime Minister has himself emphasised in all his negotiations the role and power of national Parliaments, why have the Government sought to bypass Parliament today? Secondly, I know that the noble Baroness understands the importance of this issue to your Lordships’ House, so when will we have a proper opportunity—not just tomorrow, but a proper opportunity, having considered all the evidence—to debate and discuss the Prime Minister’s deal and the case to enlist widespread EU support?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the Government do not bypass Parliament. In one breath the noble Baroness berates the Prime Minister for not being here to deliver a Statement, but with the next she berates him, it seems, for wanting to make a Statement tomorrow on what is a complex issue, and therefore it is too soon. I sympathise with all Members of the House, in that I know they pay a great deal of attention to the renegotiations, as we should as parliamentarians. They have done so throughout the process and I will continue to do my very best to update them. Of course, it is as ever for the usual channels to determine when there are debates, and I know they are listening carefully to me because the need for Parliament to be closely involved in discussions on these matters is as dear to them as it is to me. However, the papers refer to a work in progress.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, it is welcome to note that progress appears to have been made in all four of the important areas for reform that the Prime Minister has identified. Would the Minister reflect for a moment on one aspect of the sovereignty basket and the role of national Parliaments? As someone who hopes very much to campaign to remain in the European Union, and that the Prime Minister will be leading that campaign, I ask whether the Minister can explain how a red card system that requires 55% of Parliaments to make a case is really an improvement on the current yellow card system, which requires a third of Parliaments to do so. Might not an inter-institutional agreement that deals with and strengthens the current system be somewhat better?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I appreciate that the noble Baroness has done a lot of work on the academic detailed background to this, which is an advantage that many of us do not have. The 55% figure, which the BBC has reported, is not in the text released by Mr Donald Tusk, so the proposal for a majority depends on how that is defined. This is a working document, not a final agreement. The noble Baroness asks a very reasonable question about how a red card system is more effective. Those on a football pitch know what happens when they have a red card.
Baroness O’Cathain (Con)
My Lords, first, I want to thank my noble friend for making these papers available to us. I recommend that everybody in the House get a copy of them and read them. They should read them in a spirit of tolerance—
Baroness O’Cathain
Well, because tolerance should be our reaction. The whole issue has been so hyped up that we do not know where we are. The letter by President Donald Tusk is the most generous and accommodating letter I ever expected to see from the EU. Not only that, he pays tribute to us. He says:
“To be, or not to be … that is the question”.
And:
“Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”.
The whole tenor of this letter is good. Will the Government use this to try to lower the tension between those who want to stay in and those who want to go? Let us have a period of calm.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My noble friend is absolutely right. The British public will be facing the greatest decision they have had to make in a generation, and it is right that Parliament retains its approach of careful scrutiny, which is a model in this House, through the European Union Scrutiny Committee. My right honourable friend David Lidington said that he has written to the chairs of the European Union Select Committees of each House, and he will provide them with that letter before Friday. I understand he is also offering to send a memorandum of explanation so that they can better reach their own decisions. All papers have been deposited for scrutiny—not just partially but all of them—so that we may have the measured debate my noble friend calls for.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
As these negotiations continue seemingly interminably towards a conclusion we all know—the Prime Minister declaring that he has achieved a triumph in his renegotiations and will be recommending a “remain” vote—is not one thing obvious to any neutral observer? It really is bizarre that the leader of a sovereign state—our Prime Minister—in order to make a relatively minor change in our social security system, should require the agreement of 27 other leaders of sovereign states. It sounds a bit like a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, as the noble Lord knows—for some years, he was Chief Whip in this House—the European Union has rules to which we all adhere if we are to enjoy the benefits of membership. When we discuss the details of the proposals, I have no doubt that noble Lords will take different views about the benefits. Clearly, great steps forward have been made. We will have the opportunity to discuss that.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
My Lords, obviously the main debate on the detail of these arrangements will take place tomorrow, and indeed in the coming days and weeks, in profusion. Will the Minister accept that what many people are also waiting for is evidence of the profound rethink in the EU’s methods and aims, which an increasing number of voices from all quarters—Eurosceptics and Europhiles—are calling for? I am referring to the reform of the European Union that people are hoping for and want to see evidence of.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My noble friend is right. Of course, in the renegotiation talks that have been carried on by my noble and right honourable friends, we have concentrated very much on economic governance, competitiveness, sovereignty, social benefits and free movement—the very reforms that I think the British people want to see.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)
My Lords, I have to confess that I have not read the document yet, but I had understood that there was to be a fundamental reform of the European Union, with significant powers returned to the United Kingdom. Would the noble Baroness tell me what those powers are?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I should first say that the documents have been deposited in the Library and, I understand, in the Printed Paper Office. Although they were published only a short time ago by the President of the European Council, we have made them available.
It would be wrong of me to try to summarise the document here. All I can say to the noble Lord is that we will have an opportunity to discuss in detail those advances set out here. It has been made clear—not only by the President, Mr Donald Tusk—that this is still a work in progress, but clearly it is important that all other members of the European Union have a chance to consider this before we get to the February Council and, possibly but not definitely, a decision at that stage.
Lord Garel-Jones (Con)
Does my noble friend agree that perhaps one of the reasons why we have seen a number of extremist parties, of both the left and the right, across Europe is that there has been too much centralising of decision-making in Brussels in recent years? If the Prime Minister can return through the red-card system a certain amount of real sovereignty to national parliaments, that will be one of the most important achievements of the last decade.
Saudi Arabia: Executions
Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Falkner of Margravine
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the government of Saudi Arabia regarding the executions of political activists.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, the British Government are firmly opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances and in every country. We have expressed our concern to the Saudi authorities, most recently during my honourable friend Tobias Ellwood’s visit to Riyadh on 25 January—last week. The British Government do not shy away from raising legitimate human rights concerns, but we believe that we will be more successful discussing cases privately with Saudi Arabia than criticising it publicly.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)
My Lords, it is widely reported that in King Salman’s first year of office, 2015, Saudi Arabia executed more people than in any of the previous 20 years. Many of those people were executed for political dissent. The last time we discussed this, on 13 January, the noble Baroness was urged from all sides of this House to express those concerns to the Saudi Government. She has just told us that they have done so. What was the Saudi Government’s response, and will they distinguish between political dissent and other crimes?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, during his visit, Tobias Ellwood had meetings with members of the National Society for Human Rights, the Saudi Arabian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and members of the Shura Council. He also met advisers, so he covered a wide variety of people with whom he could have this conversation. Naturally, as I explained in my Answer, we prefer to make our points in a private environment. The Saudi Arabian Government and others in Saudi Arabia are clear that we will not stop coming forward with our views on each and every case where someone has been arrested and faces the death penalty.
Lord Elton (Con)
My Lords, the Minister said that we deplore executions for political reasons in all countries. Have our representations been equally private and powerful with Iran?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, of course, our diplomatic relationship with Iran has only recently resumed, and it is important that we are able to nurture it. Iran will be under no misunderstanding about the strength of opinion of the British Government—indeed, of all British Governments in recent decades—that the death penalty is wrong in principle, wrong in practice and can undermine a successful society.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)
My Lords, I cannot understand why we make only private representations to Saudi Arabia. Is not public condemnation much more effective?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
No, my Lords, our experience has been that with certain countries that is not the case and it can in fact be counterproductive. We are always careful to ensure that we make best use of our diplomatic voice in private. Saudi Arabia is not the only country that responds better to that kind of exchange. However, that does not stop me from being as public about this matter as I am today.
Lord Soley (Lab)
My Lords, the Iranian and Saudi Governments are both extremely volatile. As we know, what is happening in Saudi spills over into Yemen and if we are not careful, it will also spill over into Bahrain. I ask the Minister to exercise as much pressure as we can on the Saudi Government to understand that it is almost impossible to defend them at times, given the behaviour of their regime.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the point lying behind the words of the noble Lord, Lord Soley, is certainly right: all countries must have regard to the fact that their actions may lead to regional instability. It is important in the Gulf and Middle East that all countries recognise the impact their actions can have.
Lord Wright of Richmond (CB)
My Lords, is the noble Baroness able to comment on reports that the execution of a young man under the age of 18 was in itself a breach of Sharia law?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I am aware that there is a newspaper report to the effect that one person expected to be an adult at the time of his execution may not have been, but there is not yet proof of that. Certainly, with regard to three juveniles being held at the moment under a penalty that includes the death sentence, we have been given assurances, including most recently by the Saudi Foreign Affairs Minister, that those sentences will not be carried out. Of course, whatever we think of Sharia law—we may have different views on it—some countries have the death penalty and we need to work to ensure that it is removed.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, Saudi Arabia has a substantial Shia minority. Will this Government, in the private conversations they have with the Saudi Government, tell them very strongly that the last thing we want is to see Middle Eastern politics deteriorate into a Sunni/Shia international conflict? The way that the Saudis treat the Shia minority is important regarding whether that will happen.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, it is important in all countries, whether there is either a Shia majority or a Shia minority, that all those holding the faith are treated with respect. It is worth noting that when Shia members at a mosque were killed so appallingly by a suicide bomb this weekend, the Sunni Foreign Minister not only ensured he made a public statement but commiserated with the Shia minority.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I welcome my noble friend’s preference for private representations in this matter. Would she not agree that megaphone diplomacy is almost always less effective in the long run and is therefore not to be supported? Will she also bear in mind the importance of our commercial relations with Saudi Arabia, not least in the defence field?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, megaphone diplomacy can indeed be counterproductive. One must consider its use in each and every country. Our trade relationship with Saudi Arabia is important from the point of view of security but also complements our work on human rights. Our work on human rights is never in any way diminished by our trade relationship with Saudi Arabia.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, while not disputing in any way the efforts made by the Minister in her quiet diplomacy, there is no evidence whatever that that is working—in fact, the opposite is true. Is it not time to speak out clearly and loudly, making it plain to the Saudis exactly how we feel publicly?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I have to disagree with the noble Lord when he says that it has not been working. One of the factors is that constant work behind the scenes can lead to some joint understanding of, for example, the introduction of the EU minimum standards with regard to the implementation of the death penalty—that it should not apply to those who are pregnant, who have learning difficulties or who are minors. So with that, and perhaps with women’s rights, it is important to point to where there have been changes for the better.
Palestine
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Baroness Tonge
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan to recognise Palestine as a state.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, the United Kingdom retains the right to recognise a Palestinian state when we judge it can best help bring about peace. We strongly believe that achieving a negotiated solution to the conflict is a priority and that bilateral recognition alone would not end the occupation.
Baroness Tonge (Ind LD)
I thank the Minister for that Answer—the usual answer, if I may say so. Is she aware that, at the United Nations General Assembly on 22 December last year, the UK representatives voted for a resolution that recognised the,
“Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied … Territory, including East Jerusalem … over their natural resources”?
Could the Minister please explain to the House how the Palestinians can have this control unless we follow the example promised by the French Government in the last 24 hours since their offer of talks has broken down? Can we not do this and recognise Palestine as a sovereign state and persuade other countries to do so? Will the Minister also explain how, in the mean time, the Government will seek to protect the few remaining natural resources that the Palestinians have before Israel takes them all?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the noble Baroness refers to a United Nations resolution. She may be aware that our team in the United Nations, led by Ambassador Matthew Rycroft, negotiate the best terms they can with regard to resolutions so that the language is as close to being realistic as possible, but there always have to be compromises on those matters. We did so against the background of maintaining the policy that I set out in my first Answer: that it is important that we have a negotiated solution. That is when there would be a two-state solution, and that would be followed by a discussion about the ownership of resources. Sadly, we are not in that position yet. I note what the noble Baroness says with regards to the reports today that the French Foreign Minister, Monsieur Fabius, has announced that the French will try to organise an international conference on the Middle East peace process in the coming weeks. Whatever conferences we have, and however welcome an exchange of views, the only thing that will bring about peace is for both Israel and the Palestinians to come together to agree those terms; terms that I have set out in detail on previous occasions.
Lord Polak (Con)
My Lords, history teaches us that, when an Arab leader has direct talks with Israel, the result is territorial compromise and peace—look at Jordan and look at Egypt. Does the Minister agree that, instead of political point-scoring, Members of this House—I draw the attention of the House to my non-financial interests—could use their influence with the leadership of the Palestinian Authority to encourage them to stop inciting their young people, and really help the Palestinian people by encouraging them to return to the negotiating table without delay?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, all those who have the interests of peace at heart will want to bring together the sides that disagree to negotiate. I notice that, just recently, Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon made the following comment,
“as we continue to uphold the right of Palestinians to self-determination, let us be equally firm that incitement has no place, and that questioning the right of Israel to exist cannot be tolerated”.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
My Lords, we all like the language of a negotiated solution, and sooner or later that is what must happen. But does the Minister agree that there is an increasingly uncomfortable comparison between the way in which the international community responds when Russia is involved in breaches of international law by violating its boundary with its neighbouring country and the response of the international community towards Israel, which for more than 50 years has violated international law by the occupation of a neighbouring country, by the building of a wall and by the continuing illegal occupation that makes a two-state solution nearly impossible? Is it not time that we had a more robust response to these flagrant breaches of international law?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, the noble Lord is right to point out that the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories flouts international law. We have made that clear in the past. We have urged Israel to obey the law and have pointed out that it should withdraw. The position that Israel takes on occupying Palestinian territories makes it more difficult to achieve the two-state solution that we wish to see.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, did the Minister see the report in the Times last week that two Palestinian journalists in Gaza had been arrested and tortured by Hamas because they had written newspaper articles critical of that administration? Can she assure the House that there is no question of recognising a Palestinian state associated with Hamas until basic civil rights are respected?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, we have made it clear that Hamas needs to stop its aggressive actions and sending its rockets into Israel and that the Palestinian Authority needs to take responsibility and control of the administration in Gaza to avoid incidents such as that described by the noble Lord.
The Lord Bishop of Norwich
My Lords, does the Minister agree with the position taken in October 2014 by the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales and the Church of England bishops that,
“it is the reasonable aspiration of all peoples to belong to a state and enjoy the merits of full and active citizenship”?
Although the security of Israel is an absolute requirement, would not a principled recognition of Palestinian statehood facilitate rather than hamper renewed negotiations?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I do not believe that it would. It would not of itself bring about what we need, which is an agreement for a two-state solution. It would be throwing away a key negotiating card.
North Korea: Nuclear Test
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, for calling this important debate and raising these serious issues relating to the DPRK. I, along with fellow Ministers in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and DfID, appreciate the invaluable work of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on North Korea, of which he is a co-chair. There is a long-standing interest in North Korea, across a broad range of serious and challenging issues, which has informed today’s debate.
As noble Lords have pointed out, it is only a fortnight ago that we saw the regime’s flagrant disregard of multiple UN Security Council resolutions by conducting a fourth nuclear test. It would be inappropriate to go into the technical detail of our assessment of the capabilities of the DPRK’s military position with regard to its current and potential future development but clearly it is something we watch very carefully. Although the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others referred to the thermonuclear test, we ought to take into account the fact that North Korea also continues to develop its ballistic missile programme—also in contravention of UN sanctions. We know that it has launched missiles from submarines as recently as last year. That is something that we have to consider always.
With regard to the thermonuclear test, the UK responded swiftly and decisively to condemn this serious violation. The Foreign Secretary spoke to his counterparts in Washington, Seoul, Tokyo and Beijing and called for a robust and united international response. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, who raised these matters—absolutely rightly—that we are working within the United Nations Security Council and the EU to deliver this response, which will include a resolution on further significant measures. He asked me for a timetable. I am afraid I am not able to say when that will be achieved but technical work is under way to look at what further sanctions may be imposed that will be significant and effective. We will consider the full range of options open to us during negotiations on those new sanctions measures.
The United Kingdom has also expressed our concern directly with the North Korean regime. I was asked about this by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. My right honourable friend the Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Hugo Swire, summoned the North Korean ambassador to the Foreign Office on 7 January. My right honourable friend further condemned the test and made it clear that North Korea had a choice: to reform its approach or risk facing further international isolation and sanctions. He added that amid reports of widespread hardship and human rights abuses, the priority must be the health and welfare of the North Korean people rather than the nuclear programme.
Of course, China remains vital to resolving issues related to North Korea and the Korean Peninsula. I was pleased to hear noble Lords concentrating on the importance of China’s role. The Foreign Secretary made it clear on his recent visit to China, as did the Prime Minister when he met President Xi on his recent state visit to the UK, that we share the same goals of security on the Korean Peninsula and respect for United Nations resolutions, and that we fully understand the role of China and the importance of its influence. China, like the UK, does not want a nuclear-armed North Korea. As a P5 member, as the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, pointed out, China has a vital role to play in the implementation of UN sanctions, and we continue to work closely with it on this. We consistently engage with China on DPRK issues, including nuclear and human rights, across the board. That involves specifically the enforcement of sanctions.
As set out in the strategic defence and security review last year, the UK’s independent nuclear deterrent remains essential to our security today and for as long as the global security situation demands. History shows us that threats can emerge without notice but the tools for defending ourselves cannot be built overnight, so the Government will not gamble with the security of future generations of British people. We judge that a minimum, credible, independent nuclear deterrent, based on continuous at-sea deterrence and assigned to the defence of NATO, remains vital to our national security to ensure that the UK is protected from extreme threats that cannot be countered in any other way.
Turning to the critical issue of human rights, we remain concerned by the continuing reports of widespread and systematic state-sanctioned human rights violations in North Korea. The regime’s actions, its lack of international engagement on human rights and its rejection of the United Nations commission of inquiry report remain of deep concern. As the Foreign Office Minister for human rights, I am indeed engaged in seeing what negotiations can take place with our like-minded partners. I was asked about this by the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Baglan. It is important that we use the range of expertise and influence at the Human Rights Council as well as at the United Nations to be able to exert influence on international views of the DPRK.
Comments by the UN special rapporteur on forced expatriate labour, if accurate, appear to provide further evidence of North Korea’s lack of respect for international norms. It is important that any country around the world that is hosting North Korean workers should respect the rights of those workers. We continue to press the regime to make tangible progress on its absolutely appalling human rights record, including in the meeting that Hugo Swire had in December with senior visiting North Korean diplomats.
It is only a few weeks ago that the UN Security Council met to discuss the human rights situation in North Korea. So while we consider security as part of this debate today, crucially, we must never ever lose sight of the fact that the regime’s appalling approach to human rights denies ordinary North Koreans the rights that we, and many others across the globe, demand for ourselves. The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, outlined a critical issue: it is vital that people should have the right to freedom of religion or belief. Indeed, the constitution of North Korea makes provision for it. It is about time that it took note of its own constitution.
What action are the British Government taking? We work hard in international fora to press for action that addresses North Korea’s serious human rights violations. We play a vital role through our policy of critical engagement. The British embassy in Pyongyang works to ensure that the regime is not oblivious to the condemnation of its approach to security and human rights. Our ambassador and embassy staff consistently raise human rights with the North Korean authorities, including freedom of religion or belief, and encourage their Government to implement all the recommendations of the UN’s universal periodic review. This work is valued by many of our allies, who may of course not have based an embassy within Pyongyang or North Korea and, as I told the current British ambassador before he assumed his duties recently, it is important that this engagement continues. The embassy also runs a series of projects where we engage with ordinary North Koreans. For many, this is their first encounter with a non-Korean and it is an opportunity to showcase our own values.
I was particularly asked about spending. On Monday, I launched the new Magna Carta Fund for Human Rights and Democracy, in which we have doubled the FCO’s democracy fund money for this year to more than £10 million. That funding is available for bids from NGOs and others who work within North Korea but there is a much broader range of spending from government than just that fund. We have a programme spend which has covered humanitarian projects aimed at improving the lives of some of the most vulnerable people in North Korea, including helping to improve food and nutrition for people in rural areas, the funding of equipment for disabled people and support for children affected by the recent floods in Rajin. Many of our projects are about encouraging change.
My noble friend Lady Berridge asked about the Westminster Foundation for Democracy. In fact, I happened to meet its board yesterday as part of our regular engagement. I will make sure that it takes note of our debate today but it is not for me to tell it what to do. That is not the role of government, but I will invite it to take note of what Parliament wishes it to do. Although DfID does not have a bilateral aid programme with North Korea, its programmes are based on the fact that we can give contributions to multilateral agencies that are working in-country.
The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, asked about two consular cases. We are indeed aware of the media reports regarding US and Canadian nationals. The British embassy in Pyongyang has been in close contact with the Swedish embassy and we remain in that contact because Sweden has consular responsibility. That does not mean to say that we do not take an interest—we do.
With regard to engaging North Korean refugees, which was another question from my noble friend Lady Berridge, the British embassy in Seoul also works towards improving the future prospects of the North Korean refugee community in the Republic of Korea through its English for the Future programme. We also engage with the North Korean refugee community in the UK to share information and listen to their views on our policy towards North Korea, so that we may better address the very issues that my noble friend outlined about the needs of refugees.
I was asked particularly about the BBC World Service, which remains the world’s largest international broadcaster. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has discussed proposals for a range of new World Service programming, including for the DPRK, and he will make a decision on whether to support additional services on the basis of any formal request from the BBC Trust. I am not in a position to give a date about when that may happen but when a formal request comes forward, he will make that decision.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, raised the most important issue—there should be no impunity for crimes such as serious human rights violations. It is not only Governments who have responsibility for this. NGOs take on that responsibility, too, and I pay tribute to the human rights defenders around the world, including those in North Korea, who carry out their work in very dangerous conditions. It is a long battle ahead for us all to achieve conditions of humanity in North Korea. We will not give up, and I know that the British public and this Parliament will not give up.
Saudi Arabia: Executions
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Lord Hoyle
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Saudi Arabia about their reported plans to execute 50 people.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, the British Government are firmly opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances and in every country. We are deeply concerned about the execution of 47 people on 2 January. We have expressed these concerns to the Saudi authorities. The British Government do not shy away from raising legitimate human rights concerns and we believe that we would be more successful discussing cases privately with Saudi Arabia than criticising it publicly.
Lord Hoyle (Lab)
I thank the Minister for that reply and I am pleased that she has taken a stronger attitude in relation to the plans, because there appeared to be a craven silence in relation to them, particularly as this is the largest number since 1980. What view does she take of the opinions that have been expressed that these are intended to derail the Syrian peace process talks taking place in Vienna?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, throughout my time at the Foreign Office, I have made it clear on every possible occasion the strength of feeling that the Government have about the death penalty. It is wrong in principle and wrong in practice. Clearly, the noble Lord and I agree on that. There is a concern that any changes in behaviour by any country in the region may have a destabilising effect on the important discussions to which the noble Lord rightly alluded. We understand from both Iran and Saudi Arabia that they expect to continue to support the negotiations on Syria.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)
My Lords, the noble Baroness accepts that Saudi Arabia not only uses the death penalty but uses it against political prisoners, which is a significant point. It also wages illegal wars, as with its neighbour Yemen, and supports jihadi groups in Syria. Will she tell the House how she thinks that the UK Government supporting and collaborating with it to get it elected to the Human Rights Council of the United Nations advances international peace and security or the UK’s interests? Does it advance human rights?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, there are at least five questions there. Of course, I am supposed to try to address just two. I will choose perhaps the two most contentious. First, with regard to Yemen, it is not an illegal activity. I remind the noble Baroness that the request for support was made by the legitimate President, President Hadi, to the United Nations Security Council.
Regarding the Human Rights Council, I say now, as I have said throughout, that the matter to which the noble Baroness referred was an uncontested election—I know that that has not got into the media, so many people are not aware of it—and therefore the Saudi Arabian place, by the interesting way in which the Human Rights Council works, was taken because it is a member of the Asian group.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)
My Lords, by any sort of measure the regime in Saudi Arabia, with its beheadings, amputations and public floggings, is one of the most barbaric in the whole of the Middle East, yet our Government continue to look more benignly at that regime than at others in the area. There is a Christian hymn that states:
“They enslave their children’s children who make compromise with sin”.
Does the Minister agree with this sentiment and agree that the overriding strategic interest for the 21st century is even-handed respect for the human rights of all people?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, we do indeed subscribe to that very value: there should be even-handed respect for the human rights of all people. But we have to recognise, whether we like it or not, that Saudi Arabia follows sharia law, as other states do, and that the death penalty is part of that. Clearly, we do not support that and we work towards its eradication around the world. Saudi Arabia is a country with which we continue to work strongly. It is an important partner for security purposes. Indeed, it has provided information that has enabled us to avoid serious security incidents in this country.
Lord Tugendhat
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on her reply. Would she not agree that, while megaphone diplomacy is never very helpful, it is important that the Government should make clear privately to the Saudi Government that the indignation and concern felt about their policy crosses all political boundaries in this country and that therefore, if they persist in their present line of policy, it will make it very difficult indeed for the British people, let alone the British Government, to support the continued close relationship that we have enjoyed with Saudi Arabia in the past?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, my noble friend makes the excellent point that all states around the world need to balance very carefully their actions against how they will be seen by the international community.
Baroness Corston
My Lords, given what the Minister said in reply to other noble Lords, and in view of the fact that she and I were on a Speaker’s delegation to Saudi Arabia in December 1997—probably the only time in our lives when our ankles had to be covered because they were considered provocative—and remembering the experience of that visit, would she agree that it would have been much better if the Prime Minister had said something a little more emphatic than that it was “disappointing” that 47 people had been executed?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, we do not talk about disappointment with regard to individuals—we say that it is wrong for the death penalty to be used and we are deeply concerned when it is—because it is wrong to pick out one individual as against another. Every death is to be mourned and grieved. It is wrong and we need to work together to change the future. Saudi Arabia may be changing slowly, but it is. The noble Baroness reminds me of that visit. However, we may have been the first ladies to visit Riyadh—indeed, even into the mosque in Riyadh, where we were not asked to cover our heads.