Railway Services: The Pennines

Baroness Sugg Excerpts

Thursday 17th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made on the improvement and enhancement of railway services across the Pennines.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, the TransPennine Express franchise will see brand new trains introduced on the route this year to improve and enhance the service. We also plan to invest £2.9 billion in the trans-Pennine route upgrade to deliver faster, more frequent and more reliable journeys between Manchester, Leeds and York, with work beginning this spring. This is our biggest planned investment project on the existing railway.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, the problem is that services in the Pennine area, where I live, and in the north as a whole have got worse. One reason for this is the continuing industrial action between Northern, Arriva and the RMT union. There was another strike on Saturday, which I believe is the 45th strike in the past year. Do the Government understand that they specified the services to be provided in the north and that the Northern franchise is a contract between the Government and Arriva? Is it not time that the Government stepped in to assist in sorting out this present shambles?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we want to see further significant improvements in reliability for Northern passengers. The problems we have seen have been caused by a number of factors. We are working closely with Transport for the North, which co-manages the franchise, to drive this, and we have seen significant improvements in reliability, especially since the December timetable changes were successfully introduced. But there have been, as the noble Lord points out, more than 40 days of strikes on Northern and ending these strikes would of course significantly improve reliability. Although the disputes are between the union and the train operators, the Government are doing all they can to help resolve the issue.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has announced the improvement in the service. Is it true that Network Rail wrote to the Transport Secretary in September 2018 saying that from next year for the next five years the line will be closed for 39 weeks each year? Is that right?

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[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I am afraid I have not seen the letter to which the noble Lord refers. This is a huge project—nearly £3 billion to upgrade the route. Of course, there will be disruption alongside that, but we are working hard to make sure that we get the balance right in ensuring that, while we are improving reliability, there are alternative services. We recently completed upgrade works on the Calder Valley line to ensure that there is an alternative route, and we will set out further plans in due course.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, further north there is already a railway line linking Clitheroe in Lancashire to Hellifield, which is in turned linked to the Skipton-Carlisle line, that would open up enormous passenger opportunities. That line was closed in 1964 for passenger services, but has continued to be used for freight. Representations have been made to the Government by Lancashire local authorities, including Ribble Valley, asking for the restoration of passenger services on that line. In comparison with things such as HS2, this would call for very little public money to be spent and would link towns in Lancashire with places in Yorkshire. It would be of enormous economic value in the region, and I hope the Government will consider it seriously.

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. We have a new approach to rail enhancements—the rail network enhancements pipeline—which is following lessons learned from previous commitments. We are studying each of these cases carefully. I am not sure about the specific line to which the noble Lord refers, but I will certainly follow that up and write to him.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Secretary of State blamed the trade unions for the excessive fare rises at the beginning of this year, but across northern England, as elsewhere, last year passengers had a very poor deal. It was caused by a lot more than trade union action alone. Will the Government consider using a fare freeze in future years for companies that fail to deliver a decent service, as they have promised?

[Baroness Sugg]

I agree with the noble Baroness that the passenger services provided to many parts of the railway system last year were not acceptable. We are working hard to improve them. I know that passengers who have experienced significant delays will be frustrated with rising fares, but we need to be fair to taxpayers as well as passengers; unlike the special compensation scheme we have introduced, which is funded by industry, it would be down to taxpayers to make up the amount if we froze fares. We think that introducing compensation schemes funded by the franchise companies is the best way to target those most affected.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as living in west Cumbria, where the problems we have been hearing about are acute. Does the Minister agree that at the heart of this ongoing story there is an issue about the safety and care of passengers in a one-person operated rail system?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, passenger safety is our top priority. Driver-controlled operation is safe, and more than 50% of all rail journeys in the UK are made on driver-controlled trains. On the specific issue in question, the Transport Secretary has offered guarantees of employment to members who currently fulfil the role of a second person on the train—that is beyond the length of the franchise.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

Will the Minister outline what improvements there will be for Bradford? It is our fifth-largest city, and yet it still takes more than 20 minutes to make the seven-mile journey to Leeds. It is not good enough.

[Baroness Sugg]

We have extensive investment planned for the north. Northern Powerhouse Rail is currently in the development stage, and options are being considered which include serving Bradford. We will be working closely with cities across the north to deliver those improvements and services.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Does my noble friend have any news on the improvements that are needed on the line between London and Lincoln? Does she realise the acute disappointment that was manifest throughout the House when the special House of Lords awayday had to be postponed, particularly since my noble friend Lord Cormack was looking forward to entertaining us all in sumptuous style in the city of Lincoln?

[Baroness Sugg]

I thought that a different noble friend would ask that question, but I thank my noble friend for his continued interest in this subject. I have met LNER and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, in an attempt to make progress on this. LNER is hoping to introduce new services to Lincoln from September this year. This is dependent on Network Rail approving its timetable bid, but its services will operate from Monday to Saturday and will include services suitable for day trips from London to Lincoln, so perhaps the awayday could still go ahead.

Seaborne Freight

Baroness Sugg Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer given by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport to an Urgent Question in the other place. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, as you know, this Government are working towards ensuring that we leave the European Union in March with a sensible agreement for the future through the withdrawal agreement that this House will consider next week, but any responsible Government need to plan for all eventualities.

As part of this work, the Department for Transport has been undertaking a wide range of activities to mitigate the impact on the transport system of a potential no-deal EU exit, particularly around the movement of freight. My department has, for example, delivered measures, including passing the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Act, which puts the systems in place if a permit system is required and to ensure that UK HGVs can continue to be used in the EU.

We have also put in place Operation Brock as a replacement for Operation Stack, in order to deal with disruption at the Channel ports. This is not simply a Brexit-related measure. We do not want to see any repeat of the issues that Kent faced in 2015 with the closure of the M20. Operation Brock should mean that during any future disruption at the ports, for whatever reason, the motorway is kept open while we prepare the long-term solution of a lorry park.

Yesterday, Kent County Council and my department carried out a live trial of one part of Brock, on the route from Manston. We were satisfied with the number of vehicles that took part, which was more than enough to determine a safe optimum release rate from Manston to the Port of Dover via the A256, causing minimal traffic disruption along the route.

This is a range of examples of the sensible contingency planning that a responsible Government are carrying out to make sure we are prepared for a range of outcomes. But we are committed to ensuring as frictionless as possible movement across the UK border whatever the outcome. However, without planning there could be significant disruption to the Strait of Dover, particularly if no agreement is reached.

Given the importance of these routes to the UK economy, it is vital that we put in place contingency plans to mitigate against any disruption that might occur in a no-deal scenario. Now the department is working with the Port of Dover and the Channel Tunnel as well as our French counterparts, at both official and ministerial level, to ensure that both operate at the maximum possible capacity in all instances.

Those discussions are positive and I am confident everyone is working constructively to ensure that the Dover-Calais route, and particularly the Port of Dover and the tunnel, continue to operate fluidly in all scenarios.

However, in order to ease any pressure on those routes, my department has completed a proper procurement exercise to secure some additional ferry capacity between the UK and the EU. Following this process, three contracts were awarded to operators, totalling a potential £103 million. Almost 90% of this was to two well-established operators: £46 million to Brittany Ferries and around £42 million to DFDS.

These contracts provide additional capacity on established routes, through additional sailings and in some cases additional vessels, into ports in northern Europe and other parts of France. A third, smaller contract worth £13.8 million potentially was awarded to Seaborne Freight, a new British operator, to provide a new service between the Port of Ramsgate and Ostend.

Now let me stress, no money will be paid to any of these operators unless and until they are actually operating ferries on the routes we have contracted. No money will be paid until they are operating the ferries. No payment will be made unless the ships are sailing and, of course, in a no-deal scenario money will be recouped through the sale of tickets on those ships.

But as the House, I believe, knows, Seaborne is a new operator looking to reopen the route, which closed five years ago. As a result, we ensured that its business and operational plans were assessed for the department by external advisers, including Slaughter and May, Deloitte and Mott MacDonald. This included Seaborne’s plans to charter vessels for service, as is common across many transport modes including airlines and rail operators. We also conducted searches on the directors of Seaborne, via a third party, and found nothing that would prevent them contracting with government.

Mr Speaker, I make no apology for being willing to contract with a new British company, particularly one which has a large number of reputable institutional backers. We contracted with Seaborne Freight as the service it proposes represents a sensible contingency in the event of disruption on other routes.

I am pleased that this award supports the Port of Ramsgate, which operated as a commercial ferry port as recently as 2013 and has taken ro-ro services as recently as last year. I am looking forward to seeing ferry services resume from this port. The infrastructure work to make that possible has already started and is one of the most visible and symbolic elements of how seriously my department is taking contingency planning for all Brexit eventualities”.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for repeating that incredible Answer to the Question in another place. The Transport Secretary has awarded a £14 million contract to a company with no money, no ships, no track record, no employees, no ports, one telephone line and no working website. The Minister calls this a sensible contingency plan; I call it a crisis. In a crisis, you turn not to the lowest bidder but to the contractors that can ensure safety and reliability. I have two specific questions. First, what risk assessment has been carried out in awarding the contract to Seaborne Freight and were issues such as shipping experience, maritime safety and financial robustness taken into account? Secondly, what guarantees can the department provide on the uninterrupted delivery of critical goods such as food and medicine?

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. As I said, 90% of the contracts were awarded to established operators. With Seaborne, the proposal was subject to technical, financial and commercial assurance as part of a standard due diligence procedure consistent with that undertaken on all government contracts. Our contractual arrangements with Seaborne clearly reflect its status as a new ferry operator, and it is obliged to meet a number of stringent time stage requirements to demonstrate that it can provide an effective service, with break clauses in the Department for Transport’s favour if it fails to meet them. I reiterate the point that no taxpayers’ money will change hands unless these services are provided.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, from my ministerial experience, I recall that the usual due diligence process involves ensuring that the company has appropriate experience—Seaborne has none—and that it is financially secure. I wonder who its shadowy financial backers are. It also requires directors to be of good financial standing. Can the Minister tell us whether the unpaid tax bill of the managing director’s previous company, which went into liquidation, has now been paid?

The Statement refers to three very reputable companies which are supposedly involved in the due diligence process. Can the Minister assure us that all three signed off on the awarding of this contract, and if one or two of them did not, can she tell us which? Have the Permanent Secretary for the Department for Transport or the director asked for written ministerial direction in this case?

Finally, has Seaborne now signed a contract with Ramsgate and Ostend ports? On 3 January they had not even done that, let alone begun building or requisitioning the ships. Clearly no one looked properly at the company’s website—unless, of course, they were wanting to order a pizza.

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[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we conducted searches on the director of Seaborne via a third party and found absolutely nothing that would prevent the company contracting with the Government, which is why we went ahead. There was no ministerial direction in this case. The company has been working to open the service for over two years. Since we have given them the contract, it has been developing that service, and there will be updates in the near future.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that international haulage operators are today threatening to drop their channel business because of the risk of customs delays and that those who remain are upping their costs by 5%. Can the Minister confirm this? And how can the Ramsgate-Ostend freight service be viable when the cross-channel freight rate for vehicles, which is linked to the Channel Tunnel rate, stands at £180 per container or lorry? That was the rate in 1981 and is still the same 37 years later. Is it not true that numerous attempts have been made to rekindle that service and all have failed? Is it not also true that after dredging—even at those rates—a four-ship, two-rotation, sixteen-sailings-per-day service is still not viable? Is this just a joke?

[Baroness Sugg]

I assure noble Lords that this is not a joke but part of our contingency planning. We are concerned that in the event of no deal, there will be disruption at the port of Dover. Our first priority is to minimise that disruption on the narrow straits, but we are aware it is a real issue, which is why we are making these contingency plans and why we are looking at alternative ways of ensuring that trade carried on ro-ros can continue to come and go from this country.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend consider other ports, which do not require dredging and which operate ferries? I declare an interest: I represented the port of Harwich for 10 years as a Member of the European Parliament, and I was a frequent user of DFDS when it operated ferries to Denmark. Would my noble friend consider looking at the option of a new ferry service out of the port of Harwich? I am sure the port would benefit too from this revitalised process.

[Baroness Sugg]

As I said, the current work at Ramsgate will certainly benefit that area. With this procurement, the Government set the criteria of the additional freight capacity, within which the port of Harwich would have been in scope, but we did not specify the origin or destination ports. We left that up to the commercial operators. We regularly engage with a wide range of ports across the country, including Harwich, and we will continue to discuss how the Government can support them in the development of the maritime industry.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, could the Minister explain her comment that no money would be paid to this company until the service is started? It actually started dredging at the weekend. Who is paying the probable millions that will be spent on dredging? Are the Government or someone else paying? Secondly, who will guarantee the traffic on this ferry service, if it ever starts? Who will set the prices? As my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours said, it is an open competition now between these ferries. Will the Government direct trucks where to go?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, the dredging of Ramsgate, which the noble Lord said is already happening, is separate from this contract. We have a prioritisation process in place to ensure we can facilitate trade in the goods that we need to. That is an ongoing process that will continue up until we reach a deal with the European Union.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, when did any British Government in any field last place a major contract with a company that had no experience whatever of operating? Are the Government confident that the contract given to Seaborne Freight is fully in accordance and fully compliant with our rules on public procurement and the European public procurement directive?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we are absolutely confident that it is fully compliant. We duly published the details of the contract. As with many operators in the maritime sector, it is not uncommon for it not to own its own vessels. Many operators charter them through third parties, as Seaborne is doing.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, who is paying for the dredging at Ramsgate? The noble Baroness did not answer that question.

[Baroness Sugg]

It is not part of this contract. I believe that the cost is around £1.5 million. I will have to get back to the noble Lord with the exact details of who will pay for it.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister give us a clear statement that there are no financial connections between Seaborne Freight and close family members of any Minister?

[Baroness Sugg]

I can certainly reassure the noble Lord that I am not aware of any such connection. This contract has been brought about to try to facilitate the easing of trade should we be in a no-deal scenario. There is certainly no ulterior motive to it.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that a great many of us recognise that what the Department for Transport has done broadly to meet the possible problems at the end of March is greatly welcome? Nevertheless, it seems that this particular contract is not exactly straightforward, to put it mildly. Against that background, it might be beneficial if Her Majesty’s Government and the department found an alternative supplier for the 10% of this supplementary work on a more regular basis, perhaps on a standby basis, if and when this contract does not quite produce what it is put forward to do.

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[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we are confident that we will be able to provide the facilities to carry goods to and from for the 90% of the procurement contract. Should the contract with Seaborne fail we will of course look to make alternative measures. I thank my noble friend for his comments. As I said, the Department for Transport is making a number of contingency plans in the event of no deal. I am certainly not saying that no deal is an ideal situation or indeed one that we want to be in. We are trying to avoid it through getting agreement to the Prime Minister’s deal.

Transport: Freight Services

Baroness Sugg Excerpts

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will consider proposals by Transport for the North to include capacity and capability for freight services within their plans to electrify and upgrade the Manchester to Leeds route; if not, why not; and what alternative proposals they will make for freight services.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, we are planning to invest £2.9 billion in the first phase of the trans-Pennine route upgrade over the next five years, with an immediate focus on improving journeys for passengers. We have taken Transport for the North’s advice into account as we develop this first phase and are taking forward many of TfN’s recommendations. We will continue to work with Network Rail and Transport for the North to develop future phases of the upgrade and on how best to realise potential future benefits for cross-Pennine freight flows on this line and other routes.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer, but she has not answered the second part of my Question, about alternative proposals if the Government are not going to do this. Is the Minister aware of the enormous pressure from ports and customers in the north for rail freight to go across the Pennines? PD Ports, which runs Teesport, says that this failure to allow for freight,

“could seriously damage the economic aims of the Northern Powerhouse and would leave an overreliance on the heavily congested M62”.

Perhaps the Minister is going to widen the M62 instead, which would have enormous environmental benefits. Will she give a categorical assurance that this freight upgrade will happen and that freight can start running now, even without the necessary gauge clearance?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, there is some freight on the route already, and that will continue. I absolutely agree that rail freight plays a vital role in transporting our goods around the country and in cutting congestion on our roads. Sadly, however, taken together, all the proposals for freight and passengers exceed the amount of work we are able to do over the next five years and, indeed, the £2.9 billion we have allocated. Where we are doing electrification work, we will also ensure that it is future-proofed for freight in the future and we have enhancement works east of Huddersfield, which can provide more capacity for freight movements that use the main trans-Pennine route.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister, in a Written Answer to me just before Christmas, referred to a feasibility study into the reinstatement of the Skipton-Colne rail link as part of a route for passengers and freight. This has recently been completed by the Steer group—at a cost of nearly £1 million, I believe—and submitted to the Secretary of State. She said that the Government are considering next steps and expect to make an announcement shortly. If this major new freight route across the north of England is built, it will provide a route from Liverpool docks, via Skipton-Colne, to Leeds and Yorkshire, and up the east coast main line to the Yorkshire coast and to Drax. Is this not a scheme that, at a fraction of the cost of any new major scheme in the south-east or London, could provide a major freight route across the north of England within three or four years? Will the Government make this a priority?

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Lord rightly highlights the benefits that the scheme could bring but I am afraid I do not have any update to the Answer I gave him just before Christmas. We have received the feasibility study. We are looking at it carefully and we will make an announcement on it shortly.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, could the Minister give us her opinion on the purpose of organisations such as Transport for the North if major strategic decisions affecting that part of the United Kingdom are to be taken by London-based Ministers and civil servants? How many extra heavy goods vehicles will be used to replace the existing freight flow across the Pennines that uses this line—a freight flow that has been intensive since the line was built—while this modernisation takes place? Will she think again and get the Secretary of State to think again and listen to the people directly involved, rather than making decisions in Whitehall?

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[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we absolutely listen to Transport for the North when making these decisions. That is a vital role which it plays for us. We are carefully considering its proposals. As I said, we are not able to deliver the entire upgrade of the trans-Pennine route within five years. The existing freight lines will continue so there will not be additional trucks on the M62. We listen very carefully to Transport for the North when we make these decisions. We are prioritising passengers with these upgrades, which is the right thing to do after the disruption they have seen over the past year.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

My Lords, if we are to have a real crack at the northern powerhouse, do we not need to think about electrification from Hull to Liverpool rather than from Leeds to Manchester? Do we not also need to think about the networks within each conurbation? The problem is not just the trans-Pennine bit, but about travelling within Manchester, Leeds, Hull or Liverpool.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that there is a lot of work to be done on the rail systems in the north. Transport for the North is working on its strategic outline business case, which we expect to see shortly, and we look forward to its suggestions.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

My Lords, the existing infrastructure across the Pennines, and indeed around Manchester, is being used rather wastefully at present. It appears that the timetable is very slack. I am sure that it could, with advantage, accommodate more trains than it does at present. Will the Minister agree to meet me and an expert on timetabling—not at anybody’s expense—to try to create paths on the existing routes?

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Lord raises an interesting point. Of course we want to maximise the capacity on our routes for both passengers and freight. As the noble Lord will be well aware, timetabling is very complex and I do not profess to be an expert in it. Network Rail leads on the technical aspects of this but I would be very happy to arrange a meeting with the noble Lord.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, if the Government are to give the regions the opportunity to make these decisions, would it not be sensible to ring-fence funding for all the regions so that they can spend that money?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I said, we absolutely are consulting Transport for the North on our funding, and we have committed that £2.9 billion to the trans-Pennine routes upgrade, which is the largest investment in existing railways at the moment. Obviously, the rail system is complex, crossing all parts of the country, and it is important that we co-ordinate it centrally, but we listen to the needs of people in the areas where we are making the investment.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the construction of a high-speed network is critical to the provision of extra capacity for freight on the entire rail network north of London, and not just to the Midlands but to the north-west and the north-east?

[Baroness Sugg]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord. Our railways are absolutely at capacity—we have seen a doubling of passengers—and we desperately need more space, which is what HS2 will deliver.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, with the fiasco of Northern rail, the debacle of the phantom drones at Gatwick, and now Kent, where only half the HGVs turned up for the trial, what does it take for a Secretary of State to have to resign these days?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I reassure the noble Lord that the Secretary of State is absolutely across all the issues he has raised.

Drones: Consultation Response

Baroness Sugg Excerpts

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement about the further action the Government are taking on drones. The disruption caused by drones to flights at Gatwick Airport last month was deliberate, irresponsible and calculated. It meant days of chaos and uncertainty for over 100,000 passengers at Christmas, one of the busiest times of the year. Carefully planned holidays were ruined and long-expected reunions between friends and relatives missed. Families were forced to spend hours at an airport not knowing if or when they would reach their destinations.

Sussex Police is leading the investigation into this criminal activity. I am clear that, when caught, those responsible should face the maximum possible custodial sentence for this hugely irresponsible and criminal act. I want to assure the House that my department is working extremely closely with airports, the Home Office, the Ministry of Defence, the CAA and the police to make sure that our national airports are fully prepared to manage any similar incident in the future. I spoke personally to the heads of the major UK airports before Christmas, and later this week the Aviation Minister, Baroness Sugg, will meet with them again for an update on progress. In the meantime, the Ministry of Defence remains on standby to deal with any further problems at Gatwick and other airports if required.

But this incident was also a stark example of why we must continue to ensure that drones are used safely and securely in the UK. Today I am publishing the outcome of our recent consultation Taking Flight: The Future of Drones in the UK. We received over 5,000 responses to this consultation, reflecting a broad range of views. The responses underlined the importance of balancing the UK’s world-leading position in aviation safety and security with supporting the development of this emerging industry.

I am clear the Government are taking action to ensure that passengers have confidence that their journeys will not be disrupted by drones, that aircraft can safely use our key transport hubs and that criminals misusing drones can be brought to justice. The UK is where technology companies want to build their businesses, invest in innovation and use science and engineering to bring immense benefits to this country. Drones are at the forefront of these technological advances and are already being used in the UK to great effect. Our emergency search and rescue services use drones on a regular basis. Drones can also reduce risks for workers in hazardous sectors such as the oil and gas industry. This technology is also driving more efficient ways of working in many other sectors, from delivering medicines to assisting with building work.

However, the Gatwick incident has reinforced the fact that it is crucial that our regulatory and enforcement regime keeps pace with rapid technological change. We have taken some big steps towards building a regulatory system for this new sector. It is already an offence to endanger aircraft. Drones must not be flown near people or property and have to be kept within visual line of sight. Commercial users are able to operate drones outside of these rules but only when granted Civil Aviation Authority permission after meeting strict safety conditions.

Education is also vital to ensure that everyone understands the rules about drone use. This is why the CAA has been running its long-standing Dronesafe campaign and Drone Code guide—work that is helping to highlight these rules to the public.

On 30 July last year, we introduced new measures that barred drones from flying above 400 feet and within one kilometre of protected airport boundaries. In addition, we have also introduced legislation that will mean that from November all drone operators must register and drone pilots complete a competency test. However, we intend to go further. Today’s measures set out the next steps needed to ensure that drones are used in a way that is safe and secure and the industry is accountable. At the same time, these steps will ensure that we harness the benefits which drones can bring to the UK economy.

A common theme in the consultation responses was the importance of the enforcement of safety regulations. The Government share this view. The vast majority of drone users fly safely and responsibly, but we must ensure that the police have the right powers to deal with illegal use. We will therefore be introducing new police powers. These include allowing the police to request evidence from drone users where there is reasonable suspicion of an offence being committed as well as enabling the police to issue fixed penalty notices for minor drone offences. These new powers will help to ensure effective enforcement of the rules. They will provide an immediate deterrent to those who may misuse drones or attempt to break the law. My department has been working closely with Home Office colleagues on the legislative clauses which will deliver these changes.

It is of course crucial that our national infrastructure, including airports and other sites such as prisons and energy plants, can be adequately protected to prevent incidents such as that at Gatwick. We must ensure that the most up-to-date technology is available to detect, track and potentially disrupt drones that are being used illegally, so we have consulted on the further use of counter-drone technology. The consultation responses will now be used by the Home Office to develop an appropriate means of using this technology in the UK.

Of course, aviation and passenger safety is at the heart of everything we do, and while airlines and airports welcomed our recent airport drone restriction measures, they also asked for the current airport rules to be amended to better protect the landing and take-off paths of aircraft. We have been listening to these concerns and we have been working with the CAA and NATS to develop the optimum exclusion zone that will help to meet those requirements.

It is important to stress that any restriction zone would not have prevented a deliberate incident such as that at Gatwick. However, it is right that proportionate measures are in place at airports to protect aircraft and avoid potential conflict with legitimate drone activity. We will therefore introduce additional protections around airports, with a particular focus on protected exclusion zones from runway ends, alongside increasing the current aerodrome traffic zone restrictions around airports. Drone pilots wishing to fly within these zones must only do so with permission from the aerodrome air traffic control. The Department for Transport will amend the Air Navigation Order 2016 to implement these changes.

There is no question but that lessons must be learned from last month’s incident at Gatwick. Passengers must be able to travel without the fear of their trips being disrupted by malicious drone use. Airports must be prepared to deal with incidents of this type, while police need the proper powers to deal with drone offences. Britain must be ready to harness the vast opportunities and benefits that the safe use of drones can bring. The measures I have announced today are a major step on that journey. I commend this Statement to the House.”

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[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that we have known about this risk and about drones for some time. We have obviously discussed the issue. But we have not been complacent. We have taken significant action already. We have brought forward legislative change introducing the exclusion zone and height restrictions and ensuring that there will be registration and competency tests. There has been work on geofencing and on standards. We are extending that exclusion zone and bringing forward further legislation on police powers.

Significant work is going on across the Government to ensure that drones are not used maliciously and to improve our defences against the misuse of this technology. We are working very closely with drone manufacturers, academia and industry to improve and extend these mitigations. As I said, we are also working with manufacturers to promote the use of geofencing and technology where a drone can automatically be prevented from flying within protected areas. We are also proceeding with detailed policy work examining the testing and use of counter-drone technologies. Having already made it illegal to fly a drone within the vicinity of an airport, we are extending that.

On the point about delay, we have brought forward legislation. The plan was to bring a drones Bill in the next Session of Parliament and that is still the case. I acknowledge that there has been a slight delay in the publication of the draft drones Bill, which is partly because of the public consultation that has helped us properly to consider the available evidence and the complexity around counter-drone technology and how that can be used safely. A very simple jamming technology would obviously have an effect on all sorts of other things in our airspace and on the ground. Given how rapidly the technology is evolving, it is crucial that we get those safety issues right.

We have seen drone incidents before, both in this country and abroad, but this is the first time that we have seen consistent use and seen it in this way. Airports have plans in place for drones and many of them have equipment in place as well, but this is the first time we have actually seen this type of incident and we are learning lessons. We can say that lessons are also being learned internationally.

I would push back on any suggestion that this has been delayed because of Brexit. I can confirm that no officials who have been working on drones have been redeployed to work on Brexit. We have taken action and are taking further action. While there has been work on preparedness in this area following Gatwick, as noble Lords would expect, over the Recess there has been significant further activity from the department, the police, the Home Office and of course airports. As noble Lords would expect, they are absolutely investing further in technology. As I said earlier, I will be holding a further meeting this week to talk through exactly what plans they have in place.

[Baroness Hooper (Con)]

My Lords, I feel sure that my noble friend is aware of the House of Lords European Union Committee report, Civilian Use of Drones in the EU, which was published in March 2015 and subsequently debated in your Lordships’ House. The report was based on some far-sighted proposals by the European Commission to regulate this important and developing industry. A raft of suggestions and recommendations to improve safety and enforceability of existing laws was proposed by the committee. In particular, one recommendation was for the widening of the application of geofencing technology, which limits flights over high-risk sites, which would have been particularly appropriate in the Gatwick incident. Can she tell me whether any of the recommendations of the report by the Select Committee have been adopted by the Government?

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank my noble friend for her question and for the work she did on this. She is quite right that the European Commission has proposed a number of measures. We are working very closely with our European partners on implementing them. They are still in draft, as things stand, which is why we are taking action ahead of that, but that work is ongoing. We are working very closely with the European Commission to shape the measures; that is why we have taken action on this ourselves. If we compare our regulatory system with Europe or internationally, it does stand up. It also points out that this is a UK problem, a European problem and a global problem. This is the advent of new technology, and how we best address it is something of a challenge, I fully admit.

We have taken geofencing forward and are working with manufacturers to mandate geofencing and conspicuity, which is incredibly important. One of the problems with the Gatwick incident is that it was a crime. There are ways around conspicuity and geofencing —videos are available on YouTube on how to get around them. We can get all the regulations in place—we have done, and we are doing so—but ultimately this was a crime, so we need to ensure that we have the right police powers in order to track these people down and the right counter-drone technology available at our critical national infrastructure sites, which is what we are doing.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not strangely ironic that we can send a man to the moon and around the moon and we can send starships into outer galaxies but we cannot knock out a little bit of equipment not much bigger than a football which is run by four propellers? Perhaps we have got our priorities wrong. I shall ask the question which has been asked of me by many friends in Maidenhead over the past week. They live near Heathrow, but were unaffected by the Gatwick incident. Why was a helicopter not sent up to net the drone? That would have solved the problem and hundreds of thousands of people would not have been inconvenienced.

[Baroness Sugg]

I share the noble Lord’s frustration that it was not easier to get this drone out of the sky. There are various different ways of doing that, including physical effects, such as nets, which were available, and there were helicopters on the ground as well. Sadly, nets are successful only at a certain height, as is counter-drone technology. I can assure the noble Lord that it was not for want of resources or effort that this drone was not taken out of the sky. In this case, the drone came and went a number of times and it was not there for any sustained length of time so it could be brought down. Some of the other suggestions, such as birds of prey or bullets, were not possible. Nets were available, but they are successful only at a certain height. I share the noble Lord’s frustration that it was not easier to get the drone down. It came and went a number of times but was not in the vicinity of the airport for a sustained period of time, which would have enabled that to take effect.

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that we are making a grave mistake if we see this as just infringement of airspace or even privacy and that looking to the future we should be looking at the furtherance of crime. We know that drones are used to take contraband, drugs and weapons into jails and that this building, other landmarks in the United Kingdom and large gatherings of people are vulnerable to drones carrying weapons. It was reported in the Daily Mail that Gatwick used Israeli technology to get the drone situation under control—I am sure that is accurate because it was in the Daily Mail. If that is the case, it should be welcomed because Israel is among the leaders on drone technology—it regularly has to put up with attacks from Hezbollah and Hamas using drones. Therefore, the Government are to be congratulated on co-operating with Israeli industries and are further to be congratulated on not listening to people who want to boycott Israeli goods, because on this occasion it has been clearly demonstrated that by co-operating with the Israelis our country has been made that little bit safer.

[Baroness Sugg]

Gatwick used a number of methods and different layers were involved in addressing the incident, including UK technology, but my noble friend highlights a very good point—that this is an international challenge. He is quite right that Israel has well-developed technology in this area, and we will continue to work with all our international partners to ensure that we have the best mitigation against future drone attacks.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I want to make two points. I completely appreciate that it is easy to be wise after the event in terms of Gatwick, for example, but the Department for Transport’s paper dated July 2018, which is quite recent, was still talking about only a one-kilometre exclusion zone. At the time, many pilots said that that was insane. After all, if you think about how long it takes to land an aircraft or to get an aircraft up into the air, the distance covered is miles more than one kilometre. Therefore, I am very glad to hear that the zone is to be extended. Is advice from pilots being taken on this? Some airports need bigger exclusion zones; some need smaller ones.

My other point was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Pickles, and concerns prisons. Will we have exclusion zones around prisons? The number of offences in prison areas mentioned in the Department for Transport’s paper is quite high.

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Lord is quite right that in July we brought in a one-kilometre aerodrome restriction, but that was always meant as an initial measure. We did not have any protection beforehand, and that is the case with many countries. It was an interim measure and we said at the time that we would work very closely with the aviation industry, pilots’ unions, including BALPA, and NATS to question whether the restriction zone was large enough. We have come to the conclusion that it is not. Obviously hundreds of thousands of people live within a five-kilometre boundary of airports, so we need to make sure that we have the right exclusion zone. However, we have had conversations about this matter and have now seen evidence that, in order to ensure safety, we need to extend the restriction, and that is exactly what we are doing.

The noble Lord also rightly points out the issues around prisons, and the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office are working very closely on those. Last year they launched Operation Trenton to work together to intercept drones and track down the criminals behind them. To date, there have been 17 convictions related to drone activity and that work will continue, but it is the same challenge. The correct technology does not exist at the moment, although it is being developed very quickly. As a department and as a Government, we have invested in the extension of that technology and there are lots of interesting commercial opportunities too. As the technology develops, it will help airports and prisons, as well as this building and other important infrastructure.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my entry in the register as president of BALPA, which welcomes the Minister’s Statement. The whole issue of drones is incredibly complex—it is not just a case of a drone in an airport. Drones have a legitimate part—and will have an increasing part—in integrated airspace policy. I believe that we are only just beginning to see the potential of drones, which will be developed. BALPA certainly welcomes the exclusion zone being extended, but we hope that the planned legislation will be brought forward fairly soon. One reason for that is that when legislation comes to this House it is thoroughly examined. People will look at the detail. The consultation is important, but I am sure that the examination in Committee, clause by clause, particularly in this House, which has a good base of knowledge and reputation for looking in detail at these questions, will help the Government and the country to bring this forward.

As I have said to the Minister, and I know that she agrees, this is a matter not of party politics but of civilian safety and of getting a regime which, once it is put in place, will command the support of all sections of this House. So I urge her to bring that forward as soon as she can, and to sponsor urgent research into drone protection technology. That is another area which is very important and with which, as I told the Minister earlier today, BALPA is willing to assist—including financially, if the Government are a bit strapped for cash.

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank my noble friend for that contribution. Obviously, safety is of paramount importance and continues to be our priority. I will take the opportunity to thank BALPA for its work on this; we are pleased to be able to deliver an extension to the restriction zone. My noble friend is quite right that this is not party political; there is a will on all sides to get this legislation through and to get it right. I look forward to taking it through the House. We will publish the draft Bill shortly and will absolutely welcome noble Lords’ scrutiny of it. I have mentioned that we are already investing in research around counter-drone technology. The Centre for the Protection of National Infrastructure did significant pieces of work on this last year and will continue to do so this year. It will ensure that the advice it gives on counter-drones is available to airports and will give training courses and guidance documents.

However, I agree that we can do more. The noble Baroness is right to say that we are very thankful that no one was harmed in the Gatwick incident, but it has highlighted the importance of ensuring that we have the proper counter-drone technology in place. We are determined to do that and I thank my noble friend for his offer of a financial contribution. As I said, the Government have already invested in this, but I will take that back to the department.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I go back to the question of netting. I cannot see the point in an exclusion zone being widened if the resources are not there to enforce it. We know that these zones are already being breached, as was shown in this latest incident. There are airport workers at Heathrow who believe that a helicopter and a net would have sorted the problem out. The Minister said that it was something to do with height, but I do not understand the logic behind that. Once a helicopter is in the air, it is in the air. When it drops its net, it drops its net to collect. Could she do a bit more homework and ask civil servants to find out why a helicopter and net could not have solved the problem? Let us have a detailed response, please.

[Baroness Sugg]

I can assure the noble Lord that I have certainly done my homework on this. As I explained before, there were nets and helicopters available, but the way that the drone was being used—it was coming into the airport area very quickly and then moving away again—meant that we were not able to bring the drone down in the manner which the noble Lord suggests. The equipment was there, but it could not be used properly because of the way that the drone was being operated. We will continue to invest in research in this area to ensure that we have the best possible methodology available in the future—but, because of the way the drone was being flown, it was not possible to do what the noble Lord suggests.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The drone’s flight was some 14 minutes. I understand that the maximum speed of these drones is about 50 miles per hour; helicopters can travel at 200 miles per hour, so what was the problem? I still think that the Minister is not getting the right answers from her officials.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, there was a huge amount of activity down at Gatwick not only from the Civil Service but from the police, the military and the Home Office, as noble Lords would expect in an incident such as this. Drones move incredibly quickly and this drone was coming in only very briefly, so it was just not possible to put up that mitigation in time to bring the drone down. If it had been there for a significant length of time then that probably would have been possible but, as I have said, the way that the drone was being flown meant that it was just not possible to do that.

One of the aspects that this has highlighted is the need for a proper, layered response to incidents such as this. We have physical mitigations such as nets, which can be launched either from the ground up to a certain height or from a helicopter if at a higher height, but obviously that can be effective only if it is in the vicinity of the drone. The other things that we need are protection and tracing in order to ensure that we are able to see the drone in advance of it arriving into restricted airspace and to trace where it has come from, as well as bringing in the physical effect, which we need to do.

I quite agree that extending the exclusion zone to 30 kilometres would not actually have stopped the drone at Gatwick. We can and have put laws in place, but ultimately this is a crime, so we need to ensure that we have the right penalties, which I think we do; that we have the right laws, which I think we do; that we have the right police powers, which we are bringing forward in legislation; and that we have the right counter-drone technology, where we are investing in research. The counter-drone technology is very complex, and we need to ensure that we get it right from a safety perspective, a privacy perspective and a data perspective. That is a challenge that, following the consultation response, we will work through with the Home Office to ensure that we have absolutely the best counter-drone technology that we can have.

House adjourned at 9.01 pm.

Gatwick Airport

Baroness Sugg Excerpts

Thursday 20th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, the disruption caused by these drones is extensive, and it is an ongoing operation. We are in close contact with Gatwick Airport as it works with the police to resolve the situation safely and as quickly as possible. These drones have been flown illegally and anyone endangering an aircraft could face up to five years in jail.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, this incident has illustrated the frightening ease with which drone users can inflict massive damage on our safety, our security and our economy. It is Christmas, and thousands more drones will find their way as gifts into the hands of untrained, unregistered users. Will the Minister commit to introducing proper, stringent controls on drones early in 2019? I realise that the Government are very busy with Brexit, but this incident illustrates the importance of other aspects of our national life. Do police consider this incident to be an act of terror or simply one of criminal irresponsibility? Whichever of those it is, all airports are clearly now at risk. What steps are being taken to prevent a repeat, copycat attack?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Baroness that we need to introduce new laws to ensure that drones are used safely and responsibly. Earlier this year, we introduced a law which makes it illegal to fly a drone within a kilometre of an airport and above 400 feet. In November next year, we will introduce a registration system which includes a mandatory safety check before a person can fly a drone. As I said, these drones are being operated illegally. I am afraid that I am not able to give a further comment. It seems that the drones are being used intentionally to disrupt the airport, but, as I said, this is an ongoing investigation.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I think that it is a Front Bench response on an Urgent Question.

I am dissatisfied by the Minister’s responses. I am sure that I am not the only noble Lord to declare an interest in Christmas flights from Gatwick, but there are two sets of issues: the longer-term issues referred to and the emergency issues for today. This incident is causing disruption and distress for thousands, with more than 100,000 people stranded.

Given the length of time that this incident has been going on and the scale of the disruption, it is clear that it has not been caused by a teenager playing with an early Christmas present from their bedroom. It is obviously malicious. The Government have to address serious issues.

The police say that they have 20 units looking for the operator or operators. Do they have the expertise and equipment? They now say that they are launching a campaign for information. Have the Government consulted or engaged our military, who surely have a higher grade of technology for dealing with drones? Which Ministers are monitoring the situation and co-ordinating the emergency response, and who will they report back to? I remember the days when Prime Ministers would have had a COBRA meeting overnight to co-ordinate ministerial responses.

Given their urgency, I would expect the Minister to have investigated these issues and to have come back to the House today with an answer. If she cannot give an answer now, will she assure the House that she will return within the hour to do so?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I said, this is an ongoing operation. Sussex Police are in the lead and have officers on the ground. They are doing everything they can to locate the drone and its operators. All relevant parts of government, including the Department for Transport, the Home Office and the Ministry of Defence are involved in the response, and we are doing everything we can. As I said, it is an ongoing police investigation and I am afraid that I am not able to confirm the details at this time.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate]

My Lords, I declare an interest, first, as a pilot but also as chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on General Aviation’s investigation into airspace in the UK. We are very concerned with the incursion into airspace by drones. While I am reassured by my noble friend’s remarks, we feel that it is urgent that these matters be dealt with and that full accountability for drone operators and those who sell drones to the public is now implemented.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I explained, we changed the law earlier this year, bringing in an exclusion zone around airports. We are working with manufactures and retailers to ensure that the new rules are communicated to those who purchase drones. From November next year, people will need to register their drone and take an online safety test. We have also recently consulted on extending police powers and will make an announcement on next steps shortly.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, two years ago, on 28 February 2017, I raised the existence of signal jamming equipment operational at a distance of 2,000 feet. In reply the then Minister for transport said he would take the issue up with officials, saying:

“We will be raising his specific point with manufacturers”.—[Official Report, 28/2/2017; col. 709.]


What happened? Was it raised with officials? Was it raised with manufacturers and, if so, what were the results of those conversations?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I say, we are working closely with manufacturers on counterdrone technology. That was also something we spoke about in our consultation; we are working closely with the Home Office on both the technological side of counterdrone technology and the physical side.

[Lord Dholakia (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister keeps saying that this is an ongoing police operation. Is there any reason why we cannot be updated this afternoon? There are a large number of passengers queueing at Gatwick Airport and I think it is right and proper that not only the public but Parliament has information about what is going on. Will she come back and give us some information later?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I said, this is an ongoing police operation and we will have to see how that develops through the day. We encourage all passengers who are due to travel from Gatwick Airport to check with their airlines before they go to the airport and also to look at the Gatwick Airport website where the most up-to-date information will be provided.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, what requirements are placed on airports to be ready for these circumstances? Will the Minister be checking that other airports are prepared to meet these circumstances should they arise?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, of course we work carefully with airports on all their operational contingency plans. The priority on that is safety and as I said, once this event is closed the police will be investigating fully. Of course, we will be looking at our response and working with airports to avoid such an incident in the future.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the House is of course grateful to the noble Baroness for the rather complacent reply she has given so far. However, it is a fact that repeatedly in this House, as my noble friend said, for more than two years—for about the last five years, in fact—people have been raising concerns about drones and the Government have repeatedly dragged their feet. Why, at the earliest stage, were technical specifications not introduced and required of all drones brought into this country or built in this country, which would have enabled them to be disabled and brought safely to the ground? That technology is available and had it been introduced at the beginning it would have made life a lot easier. The penalties introduced in the middle of this year are quite clearly inadequate, as we have already heard from the noble Lord opposite. Why do the Government persistently drag their feet on these issues?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I can reassure the noble Lord that I am in no way complacent about this issue: we have been working incredibly hard on it all morning. We have also taken clear action this year, introducing exclusion zones and bringing in laws to ensure that drones are not flown above 400 feet. As I said, we have been consulting on extending police powers and will shortly announce how we will do that.

[Lord Sharkey (LD)]

My Lords, I think most people will be absolutely astonished that we are unable to locate the drone operators or remove the drones. Can the Minister say what rehearsals were carried out for such a drone incursion?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I said, the police are working on this at the moment. They are doing all they can to search for the operators and resolve the situation safely. I fear that I do not have details for the noble Lord on specific rehearsals for this but I will look into that and write to him.

[The Earl of Sandwich (CB)]

My Lords, I declare a personal interest: my daughter is stuck in Berlin Airport at this moment, like many thousands. I do not think that the Minister has replied to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, who asked a very specific question about the equipment which can disable these drones and bring them back to where they came from. These have been tested at Gatwick. Has she not got any information on the results of those tests?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, technology is rapidly advancing in this area. That is absolutely something that we are looking at. As I said, part of the consultation we did earlier this year was on counterdrone technology and we will be announcing our next steps on that very soon.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, our military and GCHQ have also developed techniques to identify the frequency very rapidly and either jam it or take control of the drone and land it. Is this ability being given more broadly to various airports? How is this being done? Clearly, we have not taken any action for a number of years to try to resolve this issue.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I said, all relevant parts of the Government, including the Ministry of Defence, are working on this issue today to try to resolve it as quickly as possible. We are working on the new technology that is available to ensure that such an incident does not happen again. It is not acceptable that passengers have faced such disruption ahead of Christmas and we are doing all we can to resolve it as quickly as possible.

Operation of Air Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Baroness Sugg Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Sugg]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 17 October be approved.

Relevant document: 4th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (Sub-Committee A). Debated in Grand Committee on 21 November.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations will be made using powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, and will be needed only if the UK leaves the European Union next March without a deal. It is the duty of a responsible Government to prepare for a wide range of potential outcomes. A key element of this preparation is to ensure that the statute book continues to function, irrespective of the outcome of negotiations, and that there continues to be a well-functioning regulatory oversight regime for aviation. We set out in technical notices in September how this would work, and these regulations deliver some of those outcomes.

Specifically, the draft regulations before us ensure that the UK will be able to provide EU air carriers with the permits they would require to operate to the UK in the absence of a deal. Rules on ownership and control mean that UK-licensed airlines can continue to be licensed by the UK after exit day, and that the CAA continues to be able to deliver effective oversight of UK-licensed air carriers. The draft regulations also ensure that UK carriers can continue to wet-lease aircraft freely from the EU, meaning that they will have as much stability and continuity as possible regarding their ability to lease foreign-registered aircraft, and can continue to use their fleets as flexibly and effectively as possible. Finally, they ensure that rules governing public service obligations in aviation, which provide essential connectivity to outlying areas, can continue to operate as they currently do.

This SI is not about our negotiating position; it is purely correcting the regulations to ensure that we have a functioning statute book in the event of no deal. We are providing UK air carriers with certainty regarding the validity of their operating licences, stability regarding their ability to lease foreign aircraft, and continuity with regards to their regulatory oversight from the CAA. These regulations, along with others, aim to ensure that there is no disruption to air travel in the event that the UK leaves the EU without a deal. I beg to move.

Amendment to the Motion

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

I hope and pray that the Minister can convince me that my scepticism is ill founded. But surely the lesson is that a no-deal outcome is wholly unacceptable and we should all work together to stop that happening.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for initiating this debate, and other noble Lords for their contributions. Following the speculation in the media over the weekend, I am also grateful for the opportunity to provide clear reassurance on the Floor of the House that planes will continue to fly after 29 March 2019, and that people can continue to book their holidays with confidence.

As I said, these regulations are an important element of this Government’s sensible contingency preparations. Obviously the debate has not focused quite on the detail; as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said, we focused on that in Grand Committee, so I will address my comments to the contributions from noble Lords.

In the amendment to the Motion, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, calls on the Government to seek membership of the European common aviation area. That is a multilateral agreement and, as he will know, signatories to it are the EU and its member states, Norway, Iceland and the western Balkan states. We are already putting in place replacement arrangements with the eight non-EU signatories for that agreement. We have got three—very nearly four—of those agreements signed, and others are progressing well.

It would not be straightforward for the UK simply to sign up to the ECAA agreement. That would require the active consent of all the EU 27 and the eight non-EU parties to that agreement. As I said, we have arrangements in place with many of the non-EU parties. As for the EU 27, the Commission has been clear that it will negotiate separately on that. As the noble Lord points out, the ECAA agreement also necessitates full and continued application of EU legislation and, with regard to the interpretation of the agreement and the associated legislation, it is the European Court of Justice that will decide. As the noble Lord will be aware, the Prime Minister has set out red lines for the UK’s future relationship with the EU, one of which is to end the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the UK.

Civil aircraft are not at risk of being grounded after 29 March. That would be in nobody’s interests and is entirely avoidable. As Donald Tusk said earlier this year, he is,

“determined to avoid that particularly absurd consequence of Brexit that is disruption of flights between the UK and the EU”.

That confidence is shared by industry as well as the UK Government. Ryanair, to whom the noble Lord referred, last month reported that its forward bookings for flights to and from the EU remain strong, as we have seen across the sector. Its chief marketing officer was quoted as saying that even if we were in a no-deal Brexit, flying would be fine.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, mentioned Heathrow. He is quite right that we need to ensure that we have these regulations in place to avoid disruption. John Holland-Kaye of Heathrow said yesterday that he was confident that planes would still fly and people could book with confidence. But I understand noble Lords’ concerns and it might be helpful if I set out in a little more detail our position and the Commission’s published position on this.

We set out in September in our technical notices, to which the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, referred, that we envisage granting permission to EU air carriers to operate to the UK. In its own contingency action plan published on 13 November, the Commission set out that it would also bring forward measures to ensure that UK air carriers could operate to the EU. Explicitly, in its contingency planning note of 13 November regarding traffic rights, to which this statutory instrument refers, the Commission said that it will propose measures to ensure that air carriers from the UK are allowed to fly over the territory of the EU and make technical stops, as well as land in the EU and fly back to the UK. The Commission said that these measures would be subject to the condition that the UK applies equivalent measures, and we have provided that reassurance as set out in our technical notices and as this SI actually delivers.

On aviation safety, which is of course important both to ensure that planes keep flying and that we keep our passengers safe, the Commission has said that EASA will be able to issue certificates only once the UK has become a third country, which will not be until after we have left the European Union. But it said in its notice on 13 November that it would propose measures to ensure continued validity of such certificates for a limited period. Those measures will be subject to the condition that the UK applies similar measures. Again, we have set out that we will recognise the EASA certificates for up to two years in our technical notices. That position was detailed in the aviation SI that was laid earlier this month and will be debated in your Lordships’ House in the new year.

I can give an update since Grand Committee to show further progress. On 29 November, following a meeting between the EU 27, we received a further update from the Commission on its position. On market access, the Commission has confirmed that it will propose a regulation to ensure basic connectivity for EU-UK flights on the basis of reciprocity. On aviation safety, the Commission will propose a regulation for continued validity of type certificates and organisation approvals, and for UK certified parts and appliances placed on the EU market before the withdrawal date. On aviation security, the Commission has confirmed that it will adopt an implementing Act to list the UK for the one-stop security system, which will include cargo security. We do not yet have a timeline on that, but we are working closely with the Commission to deliver it. Noble Lords are quite right to point out the importance of the reciprocity in this, but we are delivering our commitments through this programme of secondary legislation. The EU has confirmed that it is doing the same.

Not all our aviation relationships are governed through the EU. We already have in place 112 separate bilateral agreements with other countries. They will continue as they are today as we leave the European Union. I can provide noble Lords with some updates on further negotiations around bilaterals. We have recently concluded a new bilateral air services agreement with the UK and the US. That is confirmed and signed. That will come into effect once the EU-US air transport agreement ceases to apply to the UK. That is a good deal that guarantees the continuation of our really important transatlantic routes. It means that airlines can continue to operate as they do now and it will allow them to develop new services.

We have also concluded agreements with many countries where the current arrangements are governed by EU-level agreements. We have concluded agreements with Albania, Canada, Georgia, Iceland, Israel, Kosovo, Montenegro, Morocco and Switzerland. We are working very closely with other international partners to agree replacement bilateral arrangements designed to come into effect with the other countries currently governed under an EU agreement. Those countries are Bosnia and Herzegovina, Jordan, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Moldova, Norway and Serbia. Talks on those are progressing well. We expect these arrangements to be in place well ahead of exit day.

Some noble Lords asked about resources for the CAA. The CAA is of course making appropriate contingency preparations to deliver the continuity of service we want. That includes ensuring it has the appropriate staffing levels to deal with any increase in workload. It is recruiting 59 additional staff in preparation, 39 of whom are already in position. It is important to remember that the additional functions the CAA would take on in a no-deal scenario are limited. They are mostly for aviation safety, particularly in design certification. The EASA system works for the most part on the basis of automatic recognition of certificates issued by national authorities, so the CAA is already our competent authority for most approvals. As I said, both our and the EU’s positions have said that we will recognise those certificates for a limited period after we leave the European Union.

I turn to some questions from my noble friend Lady McIntosh. I again add my thanks to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for its continued work on our lengthy SI programme. It brings many SIs to the House’s attention, and I thank it for doing so. My noble friend asked about the CAA burden. I have already mentioned its resourcing. Specifically on route licences, as I said, the CAA already provides regulatory oversight on all UK-licensed air carriers and has the resource in place to ensure it can continue to provide that oversight. All holders of a type A operating licence, which is the majority of aircraft over 20 seats, already hold a route licence. All holders of type B operating licences have already been individually contacted and invited to apply for a free route licence from the CAA. The CAA is absolutely confident that those route licences will be issued in advance of exit day.

My noble friend also asked about reciprocity of wet leasing. Maintaining the current wet-leasing arrangement is the right thing to do for the industry as a whole, as well as for passengers. We are making every effort to minimise disruption to aviation on a no deal. Maintaining the current system for wet leasing of foreign aircraft is part of that effort.

Noble Lords raised some questions about the transport SI programme. We are expected to lay approximately 65 EU exit SIs. That number is approximate because ongoing EU business means that further legislation might come into force. Of those 65 SIs we have laid 36 to date. That is over half. Of those laid so far, 18 have been affirmative and have been debated on the Floor of the House or in Grand Committee, and 18 have been negative. There are 14 aviation SIs, 10 of which have been laid so far. Noble Lords have referred to the important issues of safety and security, and passenger rights and compensation. Those SIs have been laid and will be debated early in the new year. The remaining SIs will be spread between now and exit day to make sure we have a fully functioning—

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

I am very grateful for my noble friend’s response. I asked a rather techy question about fourth and fifth-freedom rights, but currently there are routes that fly, for example, from London through Shannon to the US. Has that been resolved in the context of the new UK-US agreement to which my noble friend referred?

[Baroness Sugg]

The current direct operations from the UK to the US will continue to stand. Obviously, if there are flights through the EU, that will be subject to the negotiations.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To be very clear, I am asking about routes that I think still operate from London via Shannon in Ireland to the States: has it been resolved that they will continue?

[Baroness Sugg]

I am sorry if I was not clear. No, the current UK-US deal deals only with direct flights between the UK and the US. Obviously, a flight that stops off at Shannon will be part of our discussions with the EU.

I hope I have been able to provide reassurance on this. I think that the EU Commission has been very clear in setting out its position and we have been very clear in setting out our position. They are broadly the same position: they both rely on reciprocity. We are delivering our position through this series of statutory instruments and, as I said, the EU is working on a timeline of when it will deliver its position. While we are working hard to get parliamentary agreement to the deal with the EU, we of course have to continue to make responsible preparations to ensure that, in the absence of that agreement, we will be able to avoid disruption. This SI and the others we have debated and will debate over the coming months are a key part of those preparations. Both we and the EU have published contingency plans, of which these regulations are just one small element. Taken together, those plans will ensure that planes can continue to fly to and from the EU in the event of a no-deal exit. They will ensure that our legal and regulatory framework for aviation is ready so that flights can continue whatever the outcome of the negotiations.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, the Minister has been more helpful than she was in Grand Committee, and my noble friend on the Front Bench made a splendid speech referring to this guidance of 24 September. It says right at the end:

“This notice is meant for guidance only”.


If I were booking a flight to the Canaries in April I would take account of the next sentence:

“You should consider whether you need separate professional advice before making specific preparations”.


I am sure that that will be helpful for my noble friend. However, we have noted what the Minister said. All this work is being done, all these great people in the Department for Transport are working very hard indeed and it really is quite outrageous, as my noble friend Lord Adonis said, that they are being deployed on this work which we hope will be totally unnecessary when they could be doing something really useful. However, in light of the Minister’s helpful reply, I do not intend to press my amendment to a Division.

Rail Franchise Agreements

Baroness Sugg Excerpts

Tuesday 4th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what requirements are included in rail franchise agreements for operators to provide information, assistance and support to passengers when trains do not arrive, or terminate before reaching their final destinations.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, franchise arrangements contain obligations for operators to act in the best interests of passengers if there is disruption in service. This includes working with Network Rail and other train operators and using all reasonable endeavours to provide alternative means for passengers to get to their destination. In addition, during franchise bids we ask bidders to demonstrate how they will deliver high standards of information and customer service during such periods, and bidders are evaluated on the quality of their responses.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I refer to trains to Brierfield, Nelson and Colne, which are at the end of the line on an eight-mile single-track siding. If trains are late, they often turn back at Burnley and turf out all the passengers without assistance, support or alternative transport to Brierfield, Nelson or Colne, where they have tickets to. It happens at all times of the day and night, leaving vulnerable people stranded at a dark unmanned station—children, young girls, old and disabled people, and visitors who do not know where they are. When will the Government get to grips with Arriva Northern rail and bring an end to scandals such as this?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, Northern is working hard to reduce the number of cancellations experienced on the line which the noble Lord mentions; they are currently running at about 4%, which is obviously not good enough. If the last train of the day is cancelled, Northern operates a last train of the day policy, which should ensure that passengers who are travelling to Brierfield, Nelson and Colne are not left stranded. If for any reason that service does not arrive, there is a 24-hour helpline, and service will then be provided. I have been assured that onward transport has been provided in all circumstances, but from what the noble Lord has said, that is not the case and, as I said, that is not good enough. I will be happy to arrange a meeting with the noble Lord and the Northern franchise where we can discuss further how better to make improvements.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the problems outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, are symptomatic of the structure of the railway. It is the structure that is wrong, and it is the structure that caused the May timetable chaos. Fortunately for us, the Transport Select Committee in the other place reported on that today. At paragraph 63 it concludes:

“The Secretary of State for transport is responsible for the structure of the system that controls and runs our railways. He is at the apex of this system … It is therefore not reasonable for the Secretary of State to absolve himself of all responsibility”.


Does the Minister agree with the committee, and does she further agree that things will not get better until the Secretary of State accepts his responsibility or stands aside for a more proactive and responsible candidate?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I should make clear that the Secretary of State and the department have accepted responsibility for the role we played in the implementation of the timetables in May. It is clear from the difficulties with the introduction of the timetable over the summer, from problems experienced with some major investment projects and from the collapse of the Virgin Trains East Coast franchise that we need to see significant change, but that, as the noble Lord said, is in the structure of our railways not in our Secretary of State.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that, while there have been improvements on Govia Thameslink since the May farce, a new technique is nevertheless being deployed on the Peterborough line? You get half way to Peterborough and the train driver announces that he is not stopping at the next four stations. While I normally like going to Huntingdon, on the whole it is not terribly productive after a late sitting in your Lordships’ House. I therefore ask my noble friend to suggest the simple remedy of having a reserve train at Peterborough with a standby driver so that the timetable can be kept.

[Baroness Sugg]

I am not sure that I will be able to deliver that, but I will certainly take my noble friend’s suggestion back to the franchise. Again, we have seen unacceptable levels of service from GTR over the summer. We have today announced firm and proportionate action against GTR, which will contribute £15 million towards tangible improvements for passengers and will make no profit from its franchise this financial year. Looking ahead, we have also capped the amount of profit the operator is able to make for the remainder of its franchise. I am well aware that the service is not as it should be, and we are working hard to address that.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend’s Question. I will expand it slightly to look at the particular problem that disabled passengers face in these circumstances. One deaf passenger recently got on to a train and, following a platform change, an audio announcement was made of the need to move to another platform, but no conductor or other staff member walked down the train and the person sat there for some time before realising there had been a change. Secondly, a disabled passenger was left stuck on a train that was terminated before its expected station, unable to get off with the other passengers who were taken off the train. What are the Government doing to ensure that train operating companies look after disabled passengers of all types, whether their disabilities are visible or not?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, all train operators have a disabled people’s protection policy in place, and they must comply with that as a condition of their licence. The ORR is currently consulting on how we can strengthen that document to set out what train operators are required to do. It looks at key areas such as reliability of the assistance service, staff training, the notice period recommended before booking assistance and passenger information for seeking redress. The ORR has powers to take enforcement action where there are breaches of licence conditions. It has not yet used these powers, but we would absolutely encourage it to do so where there are breaches.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that some rail companies appear to have removed the word “cancellation” from their vocabulary? You arrive at the station for a train, look at the board and discover that the train is no more; it never existed; it is not there. Could she help these companies to recover the full use of their vocabulary?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, train cancellation has certainly not been removed from my vocabulary. We need to make sure that information is properly provided to customers. We are working closely with GTR and all the train operating companies on this. We need, of course, to ensure that passengers are aware which services they will be able to travel on, and that is something we are working to improve.

[Baroness Corston (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope the Minister does not think that everything is fine on those train operating companies not mentioned here today. On Great Western Railway, for example, the service from Cheltenham Spa to Paddington is frequently cancelled on a Sunday night. All the trains are suddenly and summarily cancelled, so people who work in London all week and expect to travel back there on a Sunday night find they are unable to do so. GWR does this repeatedly. Will she intervene?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, obviously we should be looking not to cancel any train services, and those services referred to by the noble Baroness are particularly important for people who need to travel to London for work. I will take this issue back and follow it up with the franchise-holders to see if there is anything we can do.

Airports: Disabled People

Baroness Sugg Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Campbell of Surbiton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to encourage all United Kingdom airports to provide appropriate facilities for disabled people, particularly the provision of both self-propelled and non-self-propelled wheelchairs.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, regulations protect the rights of disabled people and all passengers with reduced mobility travelling by air. The regulations require that assistance to meet their particular needs should be provided at the airport, as well as on board aircraft, by employing the necessary staff and supplying equipment. Currently, the regulations do not specify the provision of particular equipment, but the aviation strategy Green Paper will consider how to improve the experience of disabled passengers throughout their journey.

[Baroness Campbell of Surbiton (CB)]

I thank the Minister for her reply. Is she aware that according to data from the Civil Aviation Authority’s own accessibility survey, out of 3 million requests for assistance made in UK airports last year, half a million people were unhappy with the assistance provided to them, and of those, one in 10 said that it was very poor? Examples include being left in a wheelchair, being left on an aeroplane, expensive wheelchairs being broken and, in my case, being left on an aeroplane for two hours because they refused to bring my chair to the plane door. In the light of this, can the Minister assure the House that the Government’s aviation strategy will contain more stringent ways to address this outrageous discrimination with more than just guidance and regulations that we know do not work? Will she also tell me how many disabled people were involved in developing the strategy?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I assure the House that the aviation strategy Green Paper due to be published in the coming weeks will indeed address these issues. The noble Baroness is right that, in a recent CAA survey, one in 10 passengers who requested assistance were fairly or very dissatisfied with the service provided. That is obviously not good enough. The Green Paper will propose a passenger charter, which will clarify what can be expected from airlines, airports and airside services, including on wheelchair damage and waiting times, and will improve the standards of service for passengers with reduced mobility.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, why do the Government not focus on enforcing the regulations that the Minister referred to? Surely that is what they ought to be doing at the moment.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, it is important that we look carefully at the regulations. They include provisions, but, as I mentioned in my original Answer, some of them do not specify exactly what is needed. That is why we are looking to introduce a passenger charter, to more clearly set out what we think the standard should be. Through the strategy, we are also looking at strengthening the CAA’s range of enforcement powers to deal with instances where airlines or airports have not met their legal obligations. At the moment, we are not sure whether those are right, and so we are looking to strengthen those enforcement powers.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for including me in the aviation round table earlier this year, where I had some hopes that both Heathrow Airport and some of the air companies were improving their practice. A fortnight ago, however, I travelled from Heathrow to Madrid and back. My experience included staff telling me that they could not lift my suitcase because they were not insured to lift suitcases on check in, and, despite a large orange label on my chair saying, “Bring to the plane at Madrid”, when I arrived I was told that I did not have a chair on the plane at all. I was then passed from pillar to post and was dumped in a corner facing a concrete wall by staff who were trying to sort out what was going on. I ended up in tears while they tried to find my wheelchair. If this were an unusual occurrence, it would be horrific, but it is not. What is even more horrific is that this happens every day to air passengers. Charters butter no parsnips: when will the regulations be enforced to stop air travel being a ghetto for disabled people?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I am incredibly sorry to hear of the noble Baroness’s experience. She is absolutely right that these occurrences happen far too often, and that is what we need to change. Today is the United Nations International Day of Persons with Disabilities, and it is important that we as a country continue to work with international forums to promote greater accessibility to air travel for those with reduced mobility. One of the main reasons for some of these issues is the provision of information, particularly on inbound flights and when people travel internationally. That is absolutely something that we should get right, and we will work with our international partners to try to do so.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, it is clear that some passengers can travel only if they are in their own wheelchair, as they are able to do on buses and trains. Why can the aviation industry not catch up with the rest of the transport sector?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we want to improve accessibility, not only at airports but in aircraft and we are working closely with industry to deliver changes in aircraft design. That will be for the slightly longer term. A number of issues are stopping people from travelling in their own chairs on planes—from ensuring that chairs can be tethered safely and safety issues around batteries to investigating flexibility in cabin seating to make it commercially viable for airlines. But I know that in order for some passengers to fly they of course need their own wheelchairs. I recently chaired a round table on that specific issue. We are working closely with the aviation industry, the CAA, wheelchair manufacturers and disability organisations to achieve the long-term goal of enabling wheelchair users to travel with their own airworthy wheelchair on a plane.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

Is it not about time that the security rules were proportionate to the services? My stepson lost a leg some time ago and was forced to take off his prosthetic leg in Newquay airport in front of a lot of passengers and his family when he was flying on an international service to the Isles of Scilly. For goodness’ sake, surely there should be a rule to apply a little more common sense to such searches.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as well as setting the right standards for service, we need to ensure that all staff are properly trained to address these issues. We are including a proposed measure for training programmes to improve disability awareness for all customer-facing staff, be that at the border or for ground handlers, but including security staff as well.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that the Government are lacking in sincerity in their attitude towards transport and the disabled? Although they have said that it is their wish to get more disabled people into work, not only is it difficult on aeroplanes, it is difficult on trains and taxis where the Government have failed to insist that every local authority has cabs that are designated to carry disabled people—it is a matter of chance. I hope that the Minister will agree that the Government simply must make more of an effort to get disabled people and older people on the move.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I absolutely agree that it is important to ensure that disabled people can access all modes of travel. In July this year, we published the Government’s inclusive transport strategy that sets out all our plans to make every mode of transport in the system more inclusive and better for disabled people. That includes the awareness and enforcement of passenger rights, staff training and improving information. I can reassure the noble Baroness that we are absolutely sincere in improving things. The department is working hard and I am personally committed to make flying by air better for disabled passengers.

Operation of Air Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Baroness Sugg Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2018 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Sugg]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Operation of Air Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.

Relevant document: 4th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (Sub-Committee A)

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under the powers conferred by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, and will be needed if the UK leaves the European Union next March without a deal. Following the UK’s decision to leave the EU after the referendum in 2016, the Government have been working to develop a positive future relationship with the EU. This would include a comprehensive and ambitious air transport agreement.

The Department for Transport has undertaken a significant amount of work with respect to the withdrawal negotiations and to prepare for the range of their potential outcomes. The best outcome is for the UK to leave with a deal and, as noble Lords will be aware, a draft withdrawal agreement is being considered. We remain confident that this agreement will enter into force at the end of March next year but, as a responsible Government, we must make all reasonable plans to prepare for a no-deal scenario. To that extent, we have conducted particularly intensive work to ensure that there continues to be a well-functioning legislative and regulatory regime for aviation. We set out in the technical notices in September how this would work and this instrument provides the means to deliver some of those outcomes.

EU Regulation 1008/2008 provides the basis for the internal market in air services. It consolidated provisions within a number of prior regulations that had gradually liberalised the market for air services within the EU. The regulation sets out harmonised conditions for the licensing of air carriers in the EU and provides the right for any EU-licensed air carrier to operate on any route within the EU, without prior authorisation. The regulation prohibits market distortions which had historically existed in Europe, such as restrictions on pricing or the ability of air carriers to freely set air fares and lease each other’s aircraft. It also sets out common rules for the provision of public service obligations through scheduled flights to peripheral regions that would not otherwise be commercially viable.

A further element of the internal market provided for by this regulation is for wet leasing. A wet lease is when one air carrier leases an aircraft together with its crew, maintenance and insurance from another operator. EU air carriers can freely wet lease aircraft registered in the EU, provided that it would not endanger safety, but restrictions are imposed on the lease of aircraft from beyond the EU. The EU has also pursued an external aviation policy by agreeing comprehensive air transport agreements with third countries, and by seeking consistency in the provisions of the bilateral air service agreements between member states and third countries. Regulation 847/2004 establishes a procedure for member states to notify each other and the Commission, and to work together on the negotiation and conclusion of air service agreements.

The draft regulations we are considering today fix deficiencies in the retained EU regulations, alongside the preserved domestic legislation made to implement aspects of those regulations, so that the statute book continues to function correctly after exit day in the event of no deal. The effect of these fixes was described in the technical notice published in September, which set out how the UK would regulate air carriers. Many of the fixes make it clear that the retained legislation applies only to the UK. For instance, references to “Community air carrier” are replaced with “UK air carrier”. Another amendment requires air carriers to have their principal place of business in “the United Kingdom” rather than in “a member state”. Since, in the event of no deal, the UK would no longer participate in the EU’s external aviation policy and the Commission would have no authority in the UK, regulation 847/2004 would be revoked. The UK would be free to negotiate bilateral air services agreements with other countries without regard to the Commission or EU member states.

--- Later in debate ---

Can she confirm that the document to which I have referred is the one that the EU would seek to apply in the event of no deal—that is, that what it says about traffic rights and other issues is what it seeks to negotiate with us on aviation in the event of no deal? If I am right in thinking that—I should be grateful for confirmation that I have understood it correctly—would what the Commission proposes in this document be acceptable to the UK in the event of no deal?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their consideration of these draft regulations. A wide array of issues has been raised but I will limit my responses to those directly related to the SI that we are discussing, given the time and the number of questions. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that issues around aviation and Brexit are incredibly important and it is important that we get them right. However, this SI is not about our negotiating position, which is being discussed extensively elsewhere; it is purely correcting the regulations to ensure that we have a functioning statute book should we leave with no deal in March.

I am not quite sure that I agree that this is one of the most devastating reports from the SLSC that I have seen. The committee often quite rightly draws SIs to the special attention of the House, and I and the rest of the Government are very grateful for its work on that. I am also grateful to the noble Lord for reading out the BBC report, which is quite right in its facts. I hope I can provide some further assurances as we go through the questions.

I turn to the points raised by the SLSC, to which many noble Lords referred in their questions. I shall take each point in turn. First, on how, in the event of no deal, we will ensure that bilateral arrangements are in place to ensure that there is no gap—the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is quite right to point out that it is important that there is no gap—we remain confident that we will get an agreement on a broader deal. However, if that is not possible, our first option will be to consider a multilateral agreement between the UK and the EU. The Commission has also proposed this, with suggestions for a bare-bones agreement in the event of no deal. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, is right to point out that the statement from the Commission on 13 November is its latest position on that in the negotiation, and it will form part of the conversation as we go through the detail. In the meantime, in the event of no broader deal and no multilateral deal, both of which we fully expect to reach, we have also reached out to counterparts in individual member states to reach a shared understanding on a bilateral basis of what arrangements would apply between our two countries.

The second issue specifically raised by the SLSC is the resources that the Government are providing to the CAA. The CAA is already the licensing authority for UK airlines. It provides regulatory oversight and has the resources in place to ensure that it can continue to do so. All the holders of type A operating licences—that is, operators of aircraft with more than 20 seats—already have a route licence. All the holders of type B operating licences have been individually contacted and invited to apply for a route licence free of charge, as I mentioned before, from the CAA. Some of those companies operate exclusively domestic services and do not need a route licence, but we are confident that those that need a route licence will be issued one.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I have just realised the implications of something the Minister said a couple of minutes ago. As well as a multilateral agreement with the EU, we are negotiating bilateral agreements with all 27 countries—is that right? Could the Minister explain if this is what we are doing?

[Baroness Sugg]

As I said, our firm preference is for a wider deal, providing for a comprehensive air services agreement with the EU. Failing that, we have the option of a multilateral agreement and, failing that, bilateral agreements with member states. As the noble Lord would expect, we are speaking to member states about a wide range of issues.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Is a Minister—either the noble Baroness or one of her colleagues—or some of the officials flying out to these countries to discuss it, or are they coming here? An astonishing range of what I hope is unnecessary activity is taking place. Could the Minister confirm that that is exactly what is happening?

[Baroness Sugg]

As I said, to make responsible preparations it is important to consider all the different options available to us. Of course we are having conversations with the Commission and the member states about a wide range of issues. I am not able to give further detailed information at this moment but our preference is very strongly for a broader deal which will provide a liberalised agreement with the EU, though there are other options available to us. I hope this provides reassurance that we will continue to see flights between the UK and the EU. We will continue to work towards this as we move towards exit day.

[Lord Rosser]

On bilateral discussions, the European Commission document that we have had—which I appreciate extends across the whole gamut and does not apply just to aviation—says:

“In the same spirit, Member States should refrain from bilateral discussions and agreements with the United Kingdom, which would undermine EU unity”.


It may be that this particular sentence does not apply to air transport. Is it then the case that we are having bilateral discussions in the apparent teeth of opposition from the European Union?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

Our first point of contact is with the EU Commission to agree a wider deal. It has been widely reported that the Secretary of State has written to other member states to discuss the potential bilateral agreements. We are working very hard to get that wider deal. That is our focus but, should that not happen, then of course we are making sure that we are as prepared as possible to ensure that we do not have any disruption in services come 29 March.

[Baroness Randerson]

I made the point that our worldwide agreements on air travel are made as a member of the EU. So we have to be convinced that we will have an agreement with the rest of the world beyond the EU by the end of March. How are these negotiations going, for example with the USA?

[Baroness Sugg]

I will come on to that. As the UK, we have 111 bilateral agreements with the rest of the world in our own right. The noble Baroness is quite right to point out that we have bilateral agreements through our membership of the EU.

The next issue raised was on the basis of our expectations, how we are working with EU carriers to make sure that we have no gap in services and the assurances we can give that the CAA has the capacity and resources in place. Our expectation is that EEA carriers would require advance permission before operating to the UK. This is founded on international law. I already spoke about the 1944 Chicago Convention and that that treaty expressly prohibits scheduled international air services.

In anticipation of the increased volume of permit applications from EEA carriers, the CAA has already upgraded its systems for permit processing and recruited additional staff. All scheduled permits are issued on a seasonal basis. The next summer season starts on 31 March 2019, so there is a predictable increase in workload for this. We are expecting 100 to 150 seasonal permit applications. The CAA currently issues around 3,000 ad hoc permits a year. It is preparing to be able to process at least double that if necessary.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

How many additional staff have already been recruited to the CAA and how many more does the Minister expect to be recruited?

[Baroness Sugg]

I do not have those specific numbers, but we are reassured that the CAA is fully prepared. We have already allocated it some funding from the Treasury to ensure that it has the proper resources in place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser]

Before the Minister sits down, if the document that we have had from the European Commission, specifically the section on air transport, represents the Commission’s stance in the event of no deal—as I understand it, the Minister said we were in discussions with it—what is the latest date by which something has to be agreed so that it is effective from 29 March? Presumably what has been listed here by the European Commission as its position cannot be agreed the day before, and presumably it has to be agreed before then to come into operation on 29 March. So what is the latest date, realistically, by which something has to be agreed?

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Lord will know that there are many positions on the negotiations. As I said, that is the Commission’s latest position. We are continuing to negotiate with it on the broader future partnership arrangements. Alongside that, we are of course talking to it about no deal too. There is no specific latest date. That is why we need to do this no-deal preparation, so that if it goes close to the date of exit the industry understands what the alternatives are. We are very keen to provide industry with certainty as early as possible.

We have the European Council on Sunday and I expect that there will be an outcome from that. We will then look at what next steps need to be taken. We are very hopeful that the deal is done and will be agreed by Parliament so that we reach our implementation period on 29 March and the industry has that certainty. Should that not be the case, we will of course continue the discussions with the Commission to provide certainty as early as we possibly can. I am very aware, in my many meetings with the aviation sector, of the importance of providing that certainty. That is what this no-deal planning and our continued negotiations with the Commission are about. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes) (Con)]

The Question is that this Motion be agreed to.

International Road Transport Permits (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Baroness Sugg Excerpts

Tuesday 6th November 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Sugg]

That the draft Regulations and Order laid before the House on 13 September and 9 October be approved.

Relevant document: 1st Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (Sub-Committee A)

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft instruments were laid on 13 September and 9 October following extensive industry engagement and consultation throughout this year. Together, they implement the majority of the proposals outlined during the passage of the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Act. The road haulage sector plays an integral role in keeping our economy moving and enabling businesses throughout the UK to trade with our international partners in the EU and beyond. In 2017, the UK haulage sector moved over 7.8 million tonnes of goods internationally. This is a crucial industry to the wider economy and the Government have been focused on putting in place the necessary arrangements for after we leave the EU in March 2019.

The International Road Transport Permits (EU Exit) Regulations 2018 will establish the framework and systems for the effective administration of a permit system. When the regulations come into effect, this regime will cater for our existing permit arrangements with non-EU countries and ECMT permits. From exit day, in the absence of a deal, it will cater for existing permit arrangements with EU member states, which are currently covered by EU law. The system will also be the basis for any future permitting arrangement which may arise from our negotiations with the EU. In those negotiations we are seeking reciprocal arrangements on road haulage. The current arrangements work well for both the haulage sector in the UK and hauliers in continental Europe. Our intention is to seek mutual recognition of international operating licences and access arrangements which do not restrict the current levels of trade.

However, the Government must prepare for all possible outcomes of our negotiations, including the prospect of no deal. As outlined in the technical notice on road haulage published earlier this year, in the event of no deal, hauliers will be able to use ECMT permits. In addition, we will seek to use existing bilateral agreements concluded prior to one or other of the parties joining the EU. There are 20 such agreements with EU countries which the Government expect to be reinstated once EU law ceases to apply, some of which require permits and others which do not. Where there is no existing bilateral agreement we will aim to conclude new arrangements with that country. Some existing agreements may need to be updated but we expect to have these arrangements, if required, in place to allow international road haulage to continue after exit day.

These regulations as they stand implement a permit scheme as it would operate on exit day if no new agreements were reached with the EU or member states. This will enable some continuity of road transport services in the event of no deal. Where new agreements are reached with the EU or individual member states that would require permits, we will amend these regulations to reflect the terms of these agreements. The regulations place a prohibition on undertaking international journeys without a permit where an international agreement requires one. It is important to note that these regulations by no means require the implementation of a permit regime with the EU or for any other international journeys. Rather, should an international agreement require that a permit is held by the operator and carried on the vehicle in question, these regulations allow that permit to be issued. Journeys that do not require permits are not within the scope of these regulations.

The regulations provide for how to make an application and how the Secretary of State will determine which applicants are allocated a permit where the number of permits available is limited. They set out matters that the Secretary of State must take into account when making a determination, and that are designed to deliver the greatest economic benefit from the permits, protect the interests of UK hauliers and apply a fair and consistent allocation process. This focuses primarily on how frequently a permit will be used and the proportion of an operator’s haulage that is international. The regulations provide some discretion in these criteria so that there is sufficient flexibility to respond to changing demands and ensure that permits are allocated fairly. They also require the Secretary of State to provide guidance on the process to ensure this is transparent for applicants. This has now been published. The circumstances in which a permit may be cancelled and the process for appealing the cancellation of a permit are also covered.

The permit system will be operated by the Driver & Vehicle Standards Agency, building on the existing vehicle operator licensing system which operators will already be familiar with. The system will launch on 26 November to take applications for the ECMT multilateral annual permits, with permits subsequently being issued well ahead of exit day. There will be an application window for these permits and a fee of £10 will be applicable for each permit requested. Successful applicants will be required to pay a £123 fee ahead of the permit being issued. These fee levels mean there is no change in the cost of obtaining an ECMT permit.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I too thank the Minister for setting out the content and purpose of these draft regulations and order. I share the concerns already expressed, and will revisit only some of them due to the time constraints that I know we are under today.

The draft international road transport permits regulations are laid, as are the others, under the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Act 2018. That Act allows arrangements to be put in place to enable international road haulage to continue after departure from the EU. Those arrangements create a framework for a single permit scheme that will deal with bilateral permit arrangements between the UK and non-EU countries, the multilateral European Conference of Ministers of Transport—ECMT—permit scheme and any future permit scheme that may be agreed with the EU. The draft order also includes provisions on applying for and granting a permit, along with provisions on cancellations, appeals and charging.

As has already been said, the ECMT permit scheme provides for a limited number of permits to be available to the UK. It is not much used at present, as the Community licence covers haulage to EU member states. However, if there is no deal for EU countries, Community licences will no longer be recognised from exit day, in which case UK hauliers will need either an ECMT permit for journeys to, in or through the EU, or a bilateral permit under an existing agreement with an individual EU member state to carry goods to, from or through the territory of that member state. But the number of ECMT permits available is limited, and demand for ECMT is expected to significantly exceed supply. Can the Minister say by how much demand for ECMT permits is expected to exceed supply in the event of no deal, and with which EU states there are existing bilateral agreements covering the carriage of goods—or alternatively, with which EU states there are no existing bilateral agreements?

The Explanatory Memorandum says that these regulations provide for an objective and transparent way of selecting which applications should be allocated permits. But what happens to those applicants who are not allocated permits from the limited number available to the UK? What will be the impact on them, and on our economy? If there is no deal or no satisfactory deal, how many applicants is it expected there will be who will not be able to get either an ECMT permit or a bilateral permit? How many UK hauliers currently have a Community licence? How will the Government assist operators who are not granted a permit and who may experience an adverse impact on their business as a result?

The Government have said that they are working to have bilateral agreements in place by exit day. Is that a bilateral agreement with each EU member state, and are the Government giving an assurance that such agreements with each member state will be in existence and effective by exit day? The Government have said that there are nearly 3,000 monthly ECMT permits. How will the operation of these monthly permits work in practice? Will UK hauliers have to reapply on a monthly basis, and how will the Government assist hauliers who need longer-term plans for their operations than monthly permits can provide?

The regulations grant the Secretary of State discretion to determine the allocation of permits where they are oversubscribed. How will the Government ensure that there is a fair and consistent approach, in particular over “random selection”, which is referred to in the regulations and which has already been referred to in today’s debate.

I will not go into the Trailer Registration Regulations 2018 at any length, except to say that I very much share one of the concerns in particular that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, expressed, on the level of awareness issue.

The road safety financial penalty deposit amendment order 2018 sets out the monetary amount of the financial penalty deposit—the FPD—for specified offences relating to the use of goods vehicles and trailers without the appropriate authorisation, FPDs or registration. FPDs can be taken immediately from a person without a UK address who is believed to have committed a specified offence. A separate order will designate specified offences relating to haulage permits, trailer registration and community licences as FPD offences. The specified offences under the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Act 2018 relate to failing to produce a permit when required to do so by an examiner, obstructing an examiner or breaching a prohibition on the use of a goods vehicle on an international journey.

Will the Minister say how the conclusion was reached that the level of deposits shown in the SI is appropriate for the offences in question, bearing in mind for example that,

“wilfully obstructing an examiner exercising powers”,

and carrying out an inspection attracts an FPD of just £300; likewise, a similar amount for “breaching a prohibition” or,

“causing or permitting a breach of a prohibition …on taking a vehicle to a country without reasonable excuse”.

We are talking about goods vehicles, trailers and safety issues since this is a road safety order. How wilful has the obstruction of the examiner got to be, and how blatant a breach of a prohibition, before an FPD is not considered appropriate? Once the requirement to pay an FPD has been imposed under the terms of this draft instrument, what further action will be taken in the light of the offence?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their consideration of these draft regulations. Throughout the passage of the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Act there was valuable debate, which allowed us to refine and improve the Act and ensure that it laid out the necessary framework. I am grateful once again for the opportunity to consider the detail of this legislation. I shall attempt to answer all the questions, although I am not sure I will be able to in the time allowed. If there are questions I do not get to, I will follow up in writing.

On the requests for current haulage industry figures: there are 8,400 standard international licences currently in use and 32,000 Community licences. Our figures show that if hauliers were to make one trip per week on each permit, around 20% of current activity by UK HGVs could be facilitated on ECMT permits alone. However, 20% is not enough and we do not expect to rely solely on ECMT permits. These regulations and the published guidance refer only to ECMT permit applications. We do not yet know the outcome of negotiations, so we are not able to provide further information to hauliers on that. Whether with the EU or with member states, it could be that no permits are required at all. In that case, obviously these regulations will not come into force.

I will say a little more on the permit application process—

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. She is outlining what she probably thinks is the best case. If we get the worst case—no deal—there may be no trucks going across the Channel apart from the small number with the permits that she has just outlined. Will we be allowing Bulgarians—or Romanians, or anyone else—to come in and drive trucks, or will we just be cut off?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we will certainly not be cut off. The case I outlined—20%—is the worst-case scenario for UK hauliers under the ECMT permits. What happens with EU hauliers coming in—80% are non-UK hauliers—would depend on the negotiations. We have not yet made an agreement with the EU or member states but, of course, traffic goes the other way too.

On the permit application process, we have been working closely with the DVSA to build on existing IT systems for the online permit application system. As I have said, that is currently for ECMT but may be for other bilateral permits if we agree a permit scheme bilaterally. To apply for the permit, hauliers have to be registered on the vehicle operator licensing scheme—some 87% are already registered. The permit application scheme has been tested extensively with hauliers, who found it straightforward to use. I have seen the system myself and can attest to its user-friendly manner. Therefore, we are well prepared for that. As I said, the guidance that we have provided has given advance notice of the information that is needed, and we have tried to keep that information very simple to help the application process.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked about the timing. Permits will be allocated and notifications will be made in good time to ensure that permits are with the successful applicants by January 2019. They will receive an email notification as soon as the permits are allocated and the system will allow applications to be considered promptly. However, as I said, this is for ECMT permits, and until we know where we are with the wider negotiations or bilateral agreements, that is the only information we are able to give.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about monthly permits. We will have around 2,800 monthly permits, which will be available for mostly Euro 6, as opposed to Euro 5, vehicles. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked about the emissions criteria. It is purely a case of whether a vehicle is categorised as Euro 5 or Euro 6. We have chosen to take out the maximum number of monthly permits, as we think that that will give us the maximum possible flexibility. Exactly how these permits will be used will depend on the outcome of negotiations with the EU or with member states. As yet, we have not reached a firm decision on how they will be allocated. The guidance published yesterday related to annual permits. We will begin to take applications for annual permits later this month and will offer monthly permits closer to exit day.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked about international journeys. Hauliers who plan to travel to the EU will need a valid permit to make an international journey, and they should not start that journey if they do not have the appropriate documents. They will be subject to the usual checks, although we would not specifically check for an international permit because they are not needed domestically. As I said previously, 80% of haulage is undertaken by international hauliers, and these regulations refer only to UK hauliers. Subsequent decisions about EU hauliers will be published at a later date when we see the outcome of the deal.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, was quite right to point out that we rely on foreign drivers. We have already said that we will recognise EU-issued driver qualifications, such as the CPC, so that foreign drivers can continue to work for UK hauliers. That was set out in our technical notices.

Specifically on the bilateral agreements, as I said, we remain confident of getting a good multilateral deal with the EU. There is obviously a clear mutual interest in reaching a good agreement that benefits both our haulage industries, but we are preparing for other outcomes. With regard to the number of bilateral deals, in the past we have concluded 26 such agreements with EU member states. Of those, the Government consider the agreements with 20 EU countries to be extant, with the other six having been terminated.

Some of those bilateral agreements will require permits, although a number are liberalised. We are expecting to have to update them and are preparing for that. In practice, we need to work with the member states on the agreements, so at this stage I am not able to give detailed information about them. However, should we get to the point where we go down that route, we will of course share that information. Any future agreement will be brought into force under the permits SI through the negative procedure simply by adding a member state—if permits with it are required—to the list under Regulation 1. However, obviously any bilateral agreement will be properly scrutinised and brought before Parliament.

We will be using the criteria that we have decided on to deliver the principles of obtaining the greatest economic benefits from the permits, protecting the interests of UK hauliers, and applying a fair and consistent process. To achieve that, we will consider the exhaust emissions, the goods that will be carried, how frequently the permit will be used and what proportion of the applicant’s haulage is international. Again, all that is set out in the guidance, which has now been published. It shows the exact questions that we will be asking and the specific measurable data that hauliers will need to provide. As I said, we have designed the guidance alongside research with hauliers so that it is clear for them and so that the system is straightforward.

Assessment of the criteria will be based on the numerical data that hauliers provide, and the IT system will automatically assess the applications. The criteria are included in broad terms, as we think that these are the key considerations for the permits to be allocated effectively. The regulations will ensure that the Secretary of State continues to consider the relevant guidance, and he must also provide guidance on how they will be applied.

Random selection was brought up by many noble Lords and we discussed it at length during the passage of the HPTR Bill. There are many objectives of the allocation criteria. Scoring purely on other criteria without that random element could mean that only a few hauliers got all the permits they applied for and others got none at all. Not only would that be that uncompetitive; it would also mean that smaller international hauliers who still use these permits intensively would get none, which we think is unfair. It is important to have as large a number of UK hauliers as possible to be able to continue to haul goods internationally in the unlikely case that we have to rely on the ECMT.

The random element acts to distinguish between very similar applications while preserving the basic principle that the most intense users of permits, and the hauliers most reliant on international work, have a greater chance of being allocated permits. To be clear, this does not mean that permits will be allocated by chance and without considering those criteria. It is not a lottery. Applicants who use permits more intensely and who perform a greater proportion of international haulage will always be more likely to get permits. We will look at the proportion of goods currently carried internationally when allocating them. Modelling that the department has done suggests that at least four times as many different hauliers will be awarded permits under this system than would be without the use of random allocation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley]

May I ask a question supplementary to that? If the criterion is going to be the greatest economic benefit, how can the Government identify something vital for a small business, as the noble Baroness suggested—25 tonnes of oranges, or the parts for a major car manufacturer who says, “If I do not get the parts today, I am going to close the whole thing down”—when we are only going to get a quarter or so of the permits we need at the moment? It seems there is going to be chaos either way. Does the Minister have a solution?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, it is of course incredibly important that we protect the interests of small businesses. The impact of the legislation on small businesses has been carefully considered. We are very aware of the tight operating margins the sector faces. As we said in the impact assessment, a large majority of the sector is made up of small and medium-sized businesses. In the case of the permits regime, we are looking at the proportion of business that is international. The criteria have been designed not to disadvantage smaller operators. For example, the number of international journeys made by a haulier is measured per permit rather than by the actual number of journeys. The inclusion of an element of random selection also ensures that small businesses are not disadvantaged.

On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, we are aiming to replicate the current mix of goods carried by hauliers, and we will do that as we issue the permit allocations. We have worked carefully with the haulage industry on that throughout the passage of the Act and in the run-up to the publication of the guidance and the legislation. We will continue to work closely with the trade associations—the Freight Transport Association and the Road Haulage Association—as well as lots of industry associations and small business. Industry supports our negotiation objective to maintain and develop the existing access for commercial haulage. I will read the evidence mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, but I am very clear where industry is. It is very keen to continue with the open access we have now, and that is our negotiating position. It also welcomes that the Government are working to ensure we have the right system in place and are able to allocate the ECMT permits, should we need to rely on them.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, also briefly mentioned caravans. This does not replace the NCC scheme. We are working very closely with it on the CRiS scheme, and with it and caravan council members to make sure they understand how this will affect them. We also have a communications campaign aimed at both hauliers and those with trailers to ensure that they are aware of this.

The noble Baroness also mentioned Wales. I looked into this thinking that it might come up again, and it is a standardised text, as England and Wales are a single legal jurisdiction. It is therefore not referred to separately. The standardised language is to show that EVEL does not apply. However, I will go back and reiterate her point that that could cause confusion.

These instruments represent an important stage as the Government progress with plans for leaving the European Union. We all agree that we do not want to rely on ECMT permits, and that is not the Government’s position. Haulage is of course a key industry and integral to the success of our wider economy. It is this that led to our focus earlier this year on bringing forward the primary legislation underpinning these regulations and the technical systems for implementation. If we do end up with just the ECMT, we will be ready, but, as I said, that is not where we want to end up. Whether it be through an agreement with the EU, which we are optimistic for, or through updated or new bilateral agreements with other member states, it is clear that that is in our mutual interest. We are keen to get that in place as early as possible to provide certainty for all the haulage companies that contribute so much to our economy. As I said, our negotiating position with the EU is clear as we look to achieve a deal with reciprocal arrangements that work for the industry. However, we are putting in place solid preparations for a range of outcomes, including the unlikely event of no deal.

Motions agreed.