Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill
Baroness Sugg ExcerptsTuesday 5th June 2018
(5 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Sugg
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, following the in-depth analysis of the Bill in this House, we have been looking to strengthen the definitions in Part 1 to more fully explain the purpose of its provisions. We also recognise that the measures in Part 1 relate to a complex and quickly moving technological field. As such, the specificity of language can go a long way to giving industry and consumers confidence in the Government’s approach.
To that end, I have tabled government Amendments 1, 3, 5 and 6 related to the definition of the automated vehicle, to clarify exactly when and where the provisions of the Bill will relate to such vehicles. As I noted in the discussion on this issue in Committee, we do not believe it is necessary, or even possible, to provide a more detailed definition of an automated vehicle and its technical capabilities at this time. Therefore, the Bill does not specifically cover where and how automation will be defined and regulated. This is also why we are not referencing the SAE definitions of vehicle automation in the Bill, as proposed in Amendment 2 by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. This part of the Bill simply amends the existing motor insurance framework to enable insurers to develop insurance policies that can appropriately cover for these types of vehicles. Historically, it was the driver’s use of the vehicle that had been insured rather than the vehicle itself.
During the earlier stages of the Bill, my noble friend Lord Borwick raised the important question of whether its provisions would apply, for example, to an agricultural vehicle on public roads which, while perfectly capable of autonomously running up and down a private field, could be driven on the road manually only by a human driver. This highlights an area where the definition, as currently constituted in the Bill, could be open to debate. Our proposed changes to Clause 1 and 2 resolve this issue by further clarifying that the measures in the Bill will apply only to vehicles which may lawfully be put in self-driving mode on roads or other places in Great Britain.
At this point, it is worth repeating that the purpose of the list of automated vehicles maintained by the Secretary of State is not to confer lawfulness to any vehicle. It is simply a list of vehicles that can lawfully be used in automated roads or in other public places in Great Britain. Our proposed amendment makes this clearer. I believe these changes provide greater clarity on where exactly the measures in the Bill apply to vehicles that are capable of lawfully and safely operating in automated mode.
Turning to Amendment 4 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, the purpose of Clause 1 is to ensure that the Secretary of State creates, maintains and publishes a list of automated vehicles, vehicles that are,
“designed or adapted to be capable, in at least some circumstances or situations”,
of safely and lawfully driving themselves, without having to be monitored by an individual. The list is to ensure that consumers and industry understand which vehicles are covered by the new insurance measures. In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, rightly noted that it is crucial for manufacturers, vehicle owners and insurers to know whether they are making, buying, loaning or insuring an automated vehicle, and whether the scope of legislation applies to their vehicle. It is for this reason, and no other, that the Bill includes the list.
In previous debates, I have outlined the Government’s view that the most appropriate place for setting safety standards for automated vehicles is the technical committee on vehicle safety that operates under UNECE, supplemented where necessary by appropriate domestic regulation. As a contracting party to UNECE’s 1958 agreement, which establishes these technical standards, the UK, along with 51 other countries, is bound by international law to recognise these standards and accept vehicles approved to these standards. They help not only to deliver high levels of vehicle safety, but to facilitate international trade.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, and with apologies for being a little late, I shall speak solely to my Amendment 4. As I understand it—and I would value a nod from the Minister—she did not refer to Amendment 4 until I arrived. Amendment 4 is exactly as we moved before and we got some response to it on the issue of consultation. We heard:
“That is something that we plan to do … we fully expect this to be subject to full consultation”.
We got something really absolute only when the Minister said that the Government,
“will absolutely consult on the detail”.
I thought, “Great, those are the sorts of absolute terms I like”, only to see that she also said,
“where we need to make further primary or secondary legislation”.—[Official Report, 9/5/18; cols. 196-197.]
Well, of course you will consult when you are trying to get legislation through.
I accept that the Minister has gone some way to reassuring us but I am fearful that, given the order-making powers for conventional vehicles, Parliament may never see the safety criteria—ever. What I would like from the Minister, given the public concern about the conceptually new way of travelling, is an assurance that the safety criteria will come in front of us in one form or another before there is substantial automated vehicle activity on the roads.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their broad welcome of these amendments. As I said, standards will be set separately to the Bill, both internationally and domestically, using long-established procedures that are well understood by industry. I take the noble Lord’s point, given the public concern on this and the fact that standards are usually set in this way. I fully expect that when the standards are developed, there absolutely will be an opportunity for both the public and Parliament to be consulted on them. I cannot confirm today what mechanism would be used for that. But as the noble Lord pointed out, given the concern and given that this is such new technology, different from what we have seen before, I fully expect that to happen.
The SAE levels lack the precision needed for technical standards and are not currently recognised as a technical standard in either the technical committee or the forum looking at use within the UNECE, and that is why we do not believe they should be referenced in the Bill. We have worked closely with the industry—yes, the insurance industry but also the motor manufacturing industry—on these definitions. We will certainly get in touch with them again before Third Reading to check that they are content.
The noble Baroness asked about the reference to,
“in at least some circumstances or situations”.
That is in the Bill because we expect the first automated cars to be used only in specific areas, such as on motorways. There will be a procedure to safely hand back to the driver. On the point about “safely driving themselves”, this is where the line is between partly and fully automated vehicles, which will not need monitoring by the driver. That is the differentiation. At level 3 the driver needs to monitor and to be able to take control at any point, whereas at levels 4 and 5 they do not need to monitor in any way. But I take the noble Baroness’s point on the usefulness of the SAE levels and I will certainly take that back to our representatives on the UNECE. As I said, we play a leading role in that. I am sure they are discussed but I will make sure they are and will look at whether they can be referred to when the standards are set.
As I said, technical standards and future regulations will be developed with the appropriate level of scrutiny and consultation, just as current road traffic laws and vehicle standards are developed. We do not believe that a consultation clause is needed because we are confident that there will be appropriate scrutiny.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
I understood the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, to say that the phrase used in the statute is not something the industry uses. I just wonder what the industry phrase is for this idea.
Baroness Sugg
As I said, we have been working closely with industry on this. These things are not clearly defined—that is part of the problem of writing this Bill. But “driving themselves” is something on which we worked with industry and we think that it clarifies the difference between having driver monitoring and not having driver monitoring. As far as I am aware, the industry is content but perhaps I will find out from the noble Baroness where the concerns still lie, and I will commit to speaking to it before Third Reading.
Baroness Randerson
Perhaps I may help the House by saying that that point was raised with me by representatives of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. As I understand it, it refers to automated driving or “driverless”, rather than driving itself.
Baroness Sugg
I can certainly commit to speaking to that organisation and I will let the noble Baroness know how that conversation goes.
Baroness Sugg
( ) may lawfully be used when driving themselves, in at least some circumstances or situations, on roads or other public places in Great Britain.”
Baroness Sugg
Baroness Sugg
“Report by Secretary of State on operation of this Part
(1) The Secretary of State must prepare a report assessing—(a) the impact and effectiveness of section 1;(b) the extent to which the provisions of this Part ensure that appropriate insurance or other arrangements are made in respect of vehicles that are capable of safely driving themselves.(2) The report must be laid before Parliament no later than two years after the first publication of the list under section 1.”
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, in Committee the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, proposed a reporting amendment to ensure that the Bill’s proposed insurance framework for automated vehicles is in place and working effectively. I committed to consider whether there was anything further we could do in this area. I absolutely agree that there is value in reporting on the impact and effectiveness of Part 1, so I have tabled Amendment 7 to determine whether this legislation is effective.
Given the uncertainty around the timing of the introduction of automated vehicles, rather than set a date in statute for issuing the report we have chosen to require the report to be laid before Parliament no later than two years after the list of automated vehicles is first published. We want the report to be as meaningful as possible. That will be possible only if the measures have been in operation for a period of time, with automated vehicles being added to the list and insurance policies being offered to drivers of those automated vehicles.
Subsection (1)(a) of this proposed new clause will require the Secretary of State to report on both the impact for consumers and industry and the effectiveness—whether or not the definitions and list work as intended—of the listing of automated vehicles. I hope that this provision will go some way to reassuring noble Lords, given the conversation we had on the previous group. Subsection (1)(b) of the proposed new clause addresses the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, in Committee: whether the obligations and duties required by the other clauses of this part of the Bill are working to deliver an effective framework for insuring the use of automated vehicles.
I can reassure noble Lords that the insurance industry supports our intended approach to reporting on the Bill’s impact and effectiveness, and that we will work closely with the industry when delivering the report on the operation of this part. I hope that the amendment provides reassurance that we will report on the effectiveness and impact of Part 1 of the AEV Bill, in order to ensure that it is functioning correctly, and that noble Lords will support it. I beg to move.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, I could spin this out but will the Minister settle for “Thank you”?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I could spin this out too but I am pleased that the noble Lord welcomes the amendment. That is probably all I should say on this matter.
Baroness Sugg
““road” has the same meaning as in the Road Traffic Act 1988 (see section 192(1) of that Act).”
Baroness Sugg
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the Government believe that hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles are an important technology alongside battery electric vehicles. That is the future we see for decarbonising road transport. Since 2014, we have provided £5 million to fund 12 new hydrogen refuelling stations and £2 million for public and private sector fleets to become early adopters of the vehicles. It is also why we announced in March an additional £23 million to leverage a ramp-up of investments from industry in refuelling infrastructure and vehicle deployment out to 2020.
It has always been the intent behind the Bill to include both hydrogen fuel cell and battery electric vehicles. However, I fully recognise the point made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Worthington, in Committee that this needs to be made clear in the Bill so that there can be no confusion as to its intent. I have tabled government amendments to add “or refuelling” throughout the Bill wherever “public charging point” is mentioned. We will continue to make this commitment clear to the consumer and to give the industry confidence to invest in both technologies to drive the uptake in zero-emission vehicles. I thank the Committee for raising the importance of highlighting hydrogen in the Bill, and I am pleased to move these amendments to improve it, by making it clear that all hydrogen fuel-cell technology is included. I beg to move.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 49 and 50, which are in this group. Before I do so, I reiterate my thanks to the Minister, who has taken on board the criticisms of the Bill that were made in Committee by me and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, in relation to the slight reference to hydrogen in the Bill when it came from the other place. The Government have accepted most of the amendments and have therefore dealt with the confusion of referring to charging hydrogen vehicles when it is not a phrase anyone would use—one would say “refuelling hydrogen vehicles”.
The amendments may appear simple, but they are very significant because the terminology used sends signals to investors and markets about the Government’s wishes and what form of ultra low emission vehicles they are supporting in this legislation. As originally written, it looked as if the Government were backing battery electric vehicles over other technologies, and these amendments put things in a more balanced light and level the playing field considerably.
However, I invite the Minister to think again before Third Reading and change the title of the Bill. The Bill now refers to three specific categories of vehicles—automated vehicles, electric vehicles and hydrogen vehicles—but its title refers to only two of those three categories, so to the less-than-expert observer it would appear that the Government have no legislation to encourage hydrogen vehicles. The Government could have chosen a much more general title, but they have chosen a relatively specific title because the Bill is limited and specific, so it would be sensible to flag up to the world that the Government have this legislation by putting the word “Hydrogen” in the title. I urge the Minister to reconsider this. I have no intention of pushing this to a vote today, but I think it would be useful if the title could be amended at Third Reading.
Lord Spicer (Con)
My Lords, whatever the difficulties, it must be right to alter the title to include the total market. After all, running a car on water is not a mean objective. That is a very important technology that has been left out of the Bill. I think those who have argued in favour of changing the title are right.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their comments on this. As I said, the Government recognise that hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles have the potential to play a significant role in supporting our ambitions for a zero-emission-vehicle future. The technology around hydrogen vehicles is less developed than around battery electric vehicles. I assure noble Lords that in our forthcoming “road to zero emission” document/strategy, which will be published soon, we will talk about hydrogen and set out more on the Government’s position on that. I absolutely take the noble Baroness’s point that it is important that we address zero-emission vehicles, and that is exactly what that strategy is designed to do.
I am afraid I am going to have to disappoint noble Lords on the question of changing the title. The title “Automated and Electric Vehicles” covers both battery electric vehicles and fuel cell electric vehicles. Both are electric vehicles, so I think the title encompasses the vehicles that we are talking about in the Bill. Given the changes that the government amendments have brought about, it is now clear in the Bill that the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are also covered, so I am afraid I do not believe it is necessary to amend the title. I hope that on that basis the noble Baroness will feel able not to move her later amendments. I beg to move the government amendment.
Baroness Sugg
Baroness Sugg
Baroness Sugg
“(aa) performance, maintenance and availability of public charging or refuelling points;”
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, this group of amendments introduces a requirement on performance standards for public charge points. This is in response to an issue raised in Committee by the noble Lords, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe and Lord Broers, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Worthington. The points raised during debate highlighted the need to take powers beyond those already in Clause 9 to set reliability, maintenance and performance standards for public charging infrastructure.
Public charge points will inevitably fall into disrepair when used in the public domain, particularly in the early stages as new technologies are developing. While we hope and expect that the market will respond to this, there is a risk that when charge points are installed and utilisation is low—hopefully, only in the early stages—then operators or host sites are less likely to repair them.
I agree that having a significant number of public charge points out of action will adversely impact on the user charging experience, inconveniencing and frustrating EV drivers. This would risk drivers running out of charge while trying to find the next available charge point and pose safety risks, as highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, if drivers are left stranded on public highways or in quieter rural locations. I accept the points made in Committee that greater protection is required for the consumer and that the Bill needs to go further in this regard. This group of amendments provides the Government with the necessary power to introduce regulations that would specify performance standards for publicly available EV charge points and ensure that operators take measures to ensure that faulty charge points are repaired.
I thank noble Lords for raising the issue and hope that the amendments are supported. I beg to move.
Lord Deben (Con)
My Lords, I just want to tell my noble friend how helpful I find the amendment and how useful it is. The climate change committee has drawn attention to the fact that one reason for the lack of uptake of such motor cars is people’s feeling that they cannot rely on a charging system to travel around the countryside. The amendment is an important addition to that provision.
However, I remind my noble friend that one issue here is that people are very suspicious of the correctness of the information given to them by the motor car industry generally. Therefore, this support will be invaluable. We are still being told things about motor cars which are not true. The figures being put out for the performance of motor cars—including electric motor cars—are very different from the reality. It is in that atmosphere that the amendment is important.
I hope that the Government will recognise that in other areas in this business, too, regulation is not an imposition but an encouragement. Good regulation is a good thing. We are against bad regulation. In this area, we need regulation that gives people confidence in what is for most of them a very new technology. I thank my noble friend but also urge her to recognise that we need similar support in other areas if we are to get the change which we will need. I remind her that the Government have set far too far a target for the eradication of new petrol and diesel-driven vehicles: 2030 is necessary if we are to meet the fourth and fifth carbon budgets, so there is a real need to get on with things which will encourage people to buy these motor cars.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I am grateful for noble Lords’ comments on this. This is a real improvement to the Bill, and the provision of this power will help to ensure that we have a working and reliable charge point infrastructure.
On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, I agree that this is a slight chicken and egg situation, in that we are not going to get the cars produced if there is no demand for them, and we will not get the demand for them if we do not have the infrastructure for them. It is important that we look at the two aspects in parallel—the manufacturing of cars and the provision of infrastructure.
I thank my noble friend Lord Deben for his comments. There are many provisions in the Bill on information and transparency. I entirely agree that we need to give confidence to consumers in this new area. This Bill is just part of our work as a Government on encouraging the move to zero-emission vehicles. I am going to say it again, but we will soon be publishing the road to zero strategy, which will set out in more detail how we plan to move towards zero-emission vehicles.
Baroness Sugg
Lord Lucas (Con)
My Lords, retrofitting can be very expensive, particularly in concrete structures and if you have not provided for the proper electricity supply or at least the potential for it. We are letting ourselves in for large bills in the future, and small bills in the present, if we agree with the idea that we should insist on new builds providing for charging points.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Worthington, for raising amendments for consideration around housing issues and future-proofing new homes and developments. I entirely agree that if we are to move to zero-emission vehicles, as we all wish to do, we need to make sure that we have the correct infrastructure in housing and non-residential developments.
On Amendment 18 and the removal of public charge points, I hope that I will be able to provide reassurance on this matter. Where charge points are installed on local highways or land owned by local authorities, obviously local authorities already have the ability to ensure the installation of charge points, or prohibit their removal in line with any contracts they have in place. Where charge points are installed with public-funded grants to local authorities, as all public-funded charge points currently are, local authorities will have contractual arrangements in place regarding the charge points.
On the issue of planning permission, where a charge point is installed as a condition of a grant of planning permission, which could be determined in accordance with a particular policy in a statutory plan, whether it can be removed will depend on the specific conditions of the grant of planning permission as set out by the local authority itself. The developer would therefore have to apply to the local planning authority to have that condition lifted if it wanted to remove the charge point. The planning authority has the opportunity to consider the merits of agreeing to lift the condition, but we expect that it would not, and it would be difficult for these charge points to be removed.
On Amendment 19 and the issue of charging infrastructure rights and wayleave agreements, I said in Committee that I would discuss this further with other relevant departments, which I have done. Wayleave agreements are sometimes required for rapid charge point installations if cables need to be laid across third-party land for a new connection to the grid or to upgrade the grid. Currently, the wayleave agreement is voluntary for the third party who own the land and they do not have an obligation to accept the wayleave.
As I mentioned in Committee, in cases where an agreement for a wayleave cannot be reached between the installer of electricity equipment and the landowner, we have powers under the Electricity Act 1989 which give the installer statutory powers upon which it can call if no alternative solution can be found, such as another route for the cable. This means that a statutory application can be lodged with the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to award the installer a necessary wayleave as long as it can prove why it is necessary and expedient. This process also allows the landowner to show how the granting of a wayleave will impact on their use and enjoyment of the land. This is a different situation from that of telecom lines, which, as the noble Baroness said, following the Digital Economy Act 2017 are now considered to be critical national infrastructure. There was widespread evidence of problems there which did not have the same resolution mechanism.
Therefore, although I appreciate the noble Baroness’s intentions, as she acknowledges, there is little evidence at the moment that the existing statutory powers are insufficient. Since Committee, we have discussed this issue with the trade body for the distribution network operators, the Energy Networks Association, which is of the view that the existing legislation is well established and effective, especially given the resolution mechanism.
We continue to have concerns that the amendment does not allow for the private rights of the owner of any third-party land to be taken into account or for any potential environmental effects to be considered. Because private land access rights are involved, we want to seek more evidence and consult a wide range of stakeholders before taking that any further.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
Can the Minister expand a little further on that? Are the Government positively taking action, or are they waiting for a groundswell of demand before they will take action?
Baroness Sugg
Is the noble Lord referring to the granting of wayleaves? We do not think that there is a problem at the moment. After conversations that we have had, we think that wayleaves are granted. They are either resolved between the landowner and the installer or, as I said, there is a resolution mechanism. We have heard of one case that was not able to be sufficiently resolved. Obviously, in those circumstances there will be frustration on the part of one or more parties. However, such cases are invariably resolved using the existing regulations or alternative engineering options, so we do not think that there is a need to take a power on this at the moment.
Lord Deben
Does my noble friend accept that it is a question not just of the granting of the wayleave but of the speed at which it is done? There are many such examples and in the end wayleaves are granted. I still do not understand why in these circumstances we have not applied the speed with which we deal with telecommunications because of the pressure for broadband. Why do we not do the same thing?
Baroness Sugg
We have based the Bill on the evidence that we have seen and the problems that we have heard about. I acknowledge that the resolution process can be lengthy if it has to go through the Secretary of State for BEIS, but I appreciate that in the application of new technology there is an element of learning and improvement, particularly for new entrants to the market. We will keep the current statutory arrangements under review and, if further evidence becomes apparent, we will consider what further appropriate action we can take.
We have asked the Government’s new EV energy task force to look at the issue of wayleaves. As I said, we acknowledge that if there is a lengthy period before disputes can be resolved, that will put people off. The task force launches shortly and will work with government, the energy sector and the automotive sector to look at what further actions can be taken to ensure that the energy system is used more efficiently for the uptake of electric vehicles. We have specifically tasked the task force with that.
Amendments 20 and 35 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Worthington, rightly highlight the importance of ensuring that new developments include provisions for necessary charging infrastructure. I entirely agree with my noble friend that it will be cheaper to get this right now than to try to do so retrospectively. The recent consultation on the National Planning Policy Framework considered the same policy. It sets out that, when developing local plans, local authorities must fully consider the inclusion of charge points in new developments.
The proposed NPPF envisages that applications for developments should be designed to enable the charging of plug-in and other ultra low emission vehicles in safe, accessible and convenient locations. It also sets out that, if setting local parking standards for residential and non-residential development, policies should take into account the need to ensure the adequate provision of spaces for such vehicles. We are considering many responses to the consultation, and the Government will respond in the summer.
In addition to the measures in the NPPF, building regulations have a big potential to play a role in the move to electric vehicles—in particular, regarding the provision of ducting and pre-cabling infrastructure for new buildings. In our industrial strategy we have committed to update building regulations for new residential developments, saying that they must contain the enabling cabling for charge points in homes. That will be an important step in future-proofing new homes and avoiding more costly retrofitting.
The NPPF addresses the specific point on non-residential buildings, but we already have the powers to introduce such changes through building regulations, so we do not think that they need to be included in the Bill. However, we have carefully considered the issues discussed in Committee, and I am pleased to confirm that we will extend our planned consultation on amending the building regulations for new residential dwellings to include appropriate provision for non-domestic buildings. We will consult on the appropriate regulatory requirements for all new buildings—residential and non-residential—to prepare for charge-point provision. As suggested in the amendments, this work will include considering the options for pre-cabling, and options for specifying a certain level of charging or refuelling points.
Amendment 34 would introduce regulation to ensure leaseholders are not denied the ability to install charging infrastructure, and I have reflected on the discussions in Committee on this issue. Of course, where leaseholders and the landlord or freeholder agree, a charger can be installed very quickly, but this amendment seeks to address those scenarios where one or other interested party has not agreed for whatever reason—we discussed what they could be in Committee. We want to consider these issues carefully. They relate to safety, ownership and cost. Following discussions with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, I can confirm that access to electric vehicle charge points will now be considered in the work that the Government are doing on leaseholding. A consultation will be published in the autumn.
I take the point made by the noble Baroness on timing. We certainly do not want to wait until 2021 on that and we will not have to. The project has already kicked off with a call for evidence and we will add this point into it. The Law Commission is already part way through examining the responses. The formal consultation is due to be published in the autumn and the final report will be in June next year—a little quicker. That consultation will provide a good opportunity to work through the issues around leasehold.
Given the confirmation that both leasehold properties and non-residential buildings will now be included in the forthcoming consultations, along with the assurance that the Government’s new electric vehicle energy task force has been specifically asked to review the issue of wayleaves, I hope that the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Sugg
Baroness Sugg
Baroness Sugg
“Duty to consider making regulations under section 10 on request by elected mayor
(1) The Secretary of State must consider making regulations under section 10 in relation to roads forming part of the key route network in a relevant area if—(a) the mayor for the relevant area makes a request for such regulations to be made,(b) conditions 1 and 2 are met, and (c) the Secretary of State considers that the mayor has complied with any prescribed requirements before making the request.(2) Condition 1 is that the Secretary of State is satisfied that, before making the request, the mayor—(a) published proposals for regulations to be made under section 10 in relation to roads forming part of the key route network in the area, and(b) consulted—(i) persons who would be likely to be subject to requirements under the regulations (if made), and(ii) such other persons as the mayor considers appropriate,in relation to the published proposals.(3) Condition 2 is that the mayor has given the Secretary of State a summary of the responses to the consultation referred to in subsection (2)(b).(4) The Secretary of State may disregard a request to the extent that it relates to the definitions of “large fuel retailer” and “service area operator”.(5) For the purposes of this section—(a) “relevant area” means the area of a combined authority or Greater London;(b) a road forms part of the key route network in a relevant area if—(i) in the case of the area of a combined authority, the road is one in relation to which functions are exercisable by the combined authority as a result of an order under section 105A(1) of the 2009 Act;(ii) in the case of Greater London, the road is a GLA road (within the meaning of the Highways Act 1980);(c) the mayor for a relevant area is—(i) in the case of the area of a combined authority, the mayor for the area elected in accordance with section 107A(2) of the 2009 Act;(ii) in the case of Greater London, the Mayor of London.(6) In this section—“the 2009 Act” means the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009;“combined authority” means a combined authority established under section 103(1) of the 2009 Act.”
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, this group of amendments considers an interesting and important point around the role of metro mayors in enabling the installation of charging infrastructure. I explained in Committee that we would reflect on the points made in that debate and my response has been to table Amendment 29. Cities, regions and counties play a hugely important role in local environmental strategies and dealing with air quality challenges. Charging infrastructure will need to be a part of these strategies and this provision would give them a lever to help deliver it locally. As discussed in Committee, it is important that the relevant highways authorities and combined authorities work together with industry to deliver local solutions, supported by government. We spoke on earlier groups about how local authorities and metro mayors are working together and I welcome the London EV infrastructure task force, launched by the Mayor of London last week, as a good example of this working in practice. We look forward to what it achieves.
Government Amendment 29 would enable metro mayors—the Mayor of London and mayors of combined authorities—to designate locations defined in Clause 10. As we have just discussed, this is limited to large fuel retailers and service area locations installing charging infrastructure within their defined key route networks. Mayors would be required to consult on such premises and notify the intent for regulations to be made to the Secretary of State, who must then decide whether to make regulations. Reasoning would be provided to applicant mayors should the Secretary of State choose not to introduce such regulations. It is intended that these powers could only be exercised once the definitions of large fuel retailers and the factors that would determine the suitability of a particular location have been adopted in regulations. We think this would provide clarity and ensure appropriate scrutiny prior to the power being exercised.
I shall speak also to Amendments 30A, 31, 32A and 33A in this group, as we can make some movement on them. Amendment 30A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, as an amendment to Amendment 29, seeks to introduce requirements that when proposed by mayors the Secretary of State must either introduce requirements following a mayoral request or provide reasoning why not when notifying the applicant mayor. I assure the noble Baroness that the Secretary of State intends to bring forward the regulations on the basis that they are appropriate, but it is right and proper that the Secretary of State would have the ability not to introduce the regulations should, for any reason, he not be satisfied that the requirements have been complied with. Should that be the case for any reason, as I said in my opening remarks, it is certainly the intention that any reasoning would be fully explained to the relevant mayor.
Amendment 30A would also delete proposed new subsection 1(c) of Amendment 29, which we want to maintain. It is important to ensure that no unreasonable burden is placed on retailers, that any approach is in line with agreed definitions and that any appropriate consultations have been undertaken. I confirm that I will bring forward at Third Reading a government amendment similar to Amendment 30A but with that provision maintained.
Amendments 31 and 33A, also tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, seek to widen the scope of designation by metro mayors beyond large fuel retailers on the relevant key route networks or red routes in London. We have some concerns about widening the scope beyond the key route networks if motorway service areas were also included. We think it is most appropriate for DfT and Highways England to maintain a strategic national-level oversight of service areas, given their responsibilities for these motorway routes and the need to ensure sufficient infrastructure at these strategic locations. However, removing the limitation of the key route networks may be appropriate so metro mayors can take a strategic view of large fuel retailers across their areas. To be absolutely clear, this would be appropriate for charge points at large fuel retailers only, not on the roads themselves. I know local authorities have been concerned.
Amendment 32A seeks to clarify that metro mayors should consult the relevant local authority. This is something we would fully expect to happen. It is important that local authorities are involved in infrastructure provision, and I confirm that at Third Reading we will look to bring forward government amendments similar to Amendments 31, 32A and 33A, but removing the reference to service area operators for the reasons I have mentioned. I hope that will address the noble Baroness’s concern. I beg to move.
Amendment 30A (to Amendment 29)
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, we may not be in the blame game, but the noble Lord has actually made a strong statement there about the response of TfL to the boroughs. I reserve my comments until, perhaps, we have had a response from those who almost stand in the dock—and perhaps I can raise my comments on Third Reading.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I apologise if there is any confusion on this issue. Obviously, having amendments to a government amendment can lead to confusion. As I said, we will bring forward a government amendment, taking on board other comments, and we will endeavour to do that as soon as possible.
On Amendment 33, on extending the power to local transport authorities, we have a number of combined authorities with a directly elected mayor which are designed to deliver their strategic transport priorities across their city regions. We support the devolution of powers to authorities when local decision-making will support improved delivery of transport outcomes. Mayoral combined authorities and the Mayor of London provide an appropriate level of democratic accountability and strategic oversight, which individual local authorities do not necessarily have. We have made the decision to devolve certain strategic powers to metro mayors and metro mayors only and, in this case, we do not think that we should extend them to other local transport authorities.
I will move on to the issues involved in Amendment 29. We discussed London councils, TfL and the mayor at length in Committee and I mentioned this in my opening remarks. We welcome the new taskforce which has been set up and is well represented by all these organisations. There is a real will to work together to deliver these rapid charge points. We are encouraged by that and look forward to seeing progress made.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My understanding from the Minister’s opening remarks is that Amendment 29 is in the pot to be brought together with the other amendments in a new amendment being brought forward at Third Reading.
Baroness Sugg
Yes, the plan is to bring forward one amendment. We aim to combine Amendments 29, 30A, 31, 32A, 33 and 33A into one—we hope simplified—government amendment. On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, I make it clear that these are only regulation-making powers under Section 10, which is solely for large fuel retailers and service area operators. That is what these devolved powers refer to. I acknowledge that they do not go as far as the metro mayors want. I do not suggest that we get into another conversation about widening the scope of the Bill and the powers of the metro mayors. The Government’s amendment is related purely to those operators. We will come back to this ahead of Third Reading.
The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, referred to the DPRRC memo. We will go back to the committee with our response and I will copy in all noble Lords. Under Regulation 16(4), the first regulations made following a request by a metro mayor would be subject to the affirmative procedure so the first use of the powers would be debated by Parliament. However, any further exercise of the power is expected to raise similar issues to the first such exercise. Any such regulations would also have been subject to two periods of consultation: the metro mayor would be required to undertake local consultation before asking the Secretary of State to make regulations, and under Regulation 16(3) the Secretary of State would be required to undertake consultation before making the regulations. We think that is sufficient. I am afraid I received the letter only yesterday evening, but we will reply in the coming days and I will make sure that all noble Lords are copied in.
As I said, we will endeavour to come back as soon as possible with a revised government amendment which I hope will simplify matters.
Baroness Sugg
Baroness Sugg
Baroness Sugg
“(4A) Where—(a) a statutory instrument contains regulations under section 10 (large fuel retailers etc), and(b) the regulations amend the definition of “large fuel retailer” or “service area operator”,the instrument containing the regulations may not be made unless a draft of it has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House.”
Baroness Sugg
“Report by Secretary of State on operation of this Part
(1) The Secretary of State must, in respect of each reporting period, prepare a report assessing—(a) the impact and effectiveness of regulations made under this Part;(b) the need for regulations to be made under this Part during subsequent reporting periods.(2) Each report must be laid before Parliament after the end of the reporting period to which it relates.(3) The first reporting period is the period of two years beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.(4) Each subsequent period of 12 months after the first reporting period is a reporting period.”
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, following similar amendments in Committee, government Amendment 48 introduces a new clause on reporting for Part 2. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to produce a report to be laid before each House of Parliament every year, commencing two years after Royal Assent. This is a broad reporting clause and, for example, would allow the Government to: assess the effects of the regulations on electric vehicle uptake; assess the effects of regulations on industry and consumers; assess how regulations are benefiting the energy system and consumer electricity bills; look at the impact on the Government’s carbon and air quality targets; and consider other social and environmental impacts.
As well as this proposed new clause on reporting, the Government already have other reporting mechanisms and requirements. I explained some of these in Committee, such as the legal obligations to report, and make public, data on air quality and emissions of a range of damaging air quality pollutants, as well as the reporting duties that already exist under the Climate Change Act 2008.
In addition to those reporting requirements, the department publishes statistics on electric vehicle registrations on websites and provides data on the number and location of public charge points. The powers in the Bill will enhance this information and ensure that it is openly available.
As well as assessing the impact of the regulations made, I am also pleased to have included in the amendment a requirement for an assessment of the need for other regulations to be made under this part during subsequent reporting periods. This will help to ensure that further regulations are made in a timely and appropriate manner. I hope that noble Lords are able to support this new clause as one that will complement the Government’s other reporting mechanisms, I beg to move.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I am pleased to see this amendment committing to a reporting procedure. It is highly sensible because of the way in which we are having to second-guess the future. The speed of response to change could well be quite rapid. I recall the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, quoting some statistics at our last sitting. She referred to a big spike in the sales of petrol cars that matched the rapid decline in the sale of diesel cars. I use that example to illustrate that changes in this market can be very rapid in response to public knowledge, concern and awareness of environmental issues.
I will use the opportunity of this reporting amendment to urge the Government to give some thought now to the possibility of including car parks in their proposals at Third Reading. Car parks were included as a possibility for further regulations, I suggest gently to the Government that they have the discretion not to implement anything about this in the near future, but they could look, after the first report comes forward, at car parks if their measures implemented in relation to service stations have not proved sufficiently effective. That would mean that they would have the weapon in their armoury, kept in the background. They would not have to go to further legislation and further amendment, which could be difficult and time-consuming. However, I welcome the idea of regular government reports on this rapidly changing situation.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, I believe that we asked for this provision in Committee, and if we did not, we meant to do so. Either way, we thank the Minister.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I am grateful for the broad welcome expressed by noble Lords for the reporting amendment. I can reassure my noble friend that we will lay the report within two years of the Act being passed and further reports every 12 months after that. I did raise the issue of this wording and I have been assured that it has many precedents.
As this is the last group of the day, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I know that some believe that the Bill is too narrow in scope and does not go far enough in the provision of electric charging infrastructure. I would like to point out that infrastructure is just one element of Part 2. We have also made provisions on access, connection, information, data, smart charging and now reliability. While I acknowledge the views of noble Lords on infrastructure, we have sought to address any issues where we find them. Again, it is a part of the Bill, not its entirety. Indeed, the Bill forms only a small part of the work that the Government are doing to ensure that we have a successful transition to electric vehicles. I may as well say one last time that our upcoming “road to zero” strategy will set out our plans in more detail.
I have listened to the arguments put by noble Lords throughout the passage of the Bill and I have moved amendments to improve it. Again, I thank noble Lords for their constructive engagement.
New Cars: Sales
Baroness Sugg Excerpts(5 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Naseby
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ban the sale of new (1) diesel, (2) petrol, (3) hybrid, and (4) electric, cars over the next 25 years.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, the Government’s aim is for every new car and van to be effectively zero emission by 2040 and we will end the sale of new conventional petrol and diesel cars and vans by this date. We expect this transition to be industry and consumer-led, but will consider intervening if not enough progress is being made. Our approach is focused on the goal of zero tailpipe emissions and is technology-neutral. More detail will be set out in the forthcoming zero-emission road transport strategy.
Lord Naseby (Con)
I thank my noble friend for that Answer but, given that all Governments are poor at forecasting—and in this industry, diesels come to mind—would it not make much more sense for Her Majesty’s Government to stop trying to dictate and rather to listen and work with the relevant industry? In this case, was not the CEO of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders right when he said,
“industry cannot dictate the pace of change nor levels of consumer demand. Unrealistic targets and misleading messaging on bans will only undermine our efforts to realise this future, confusing consumers and wreaking havoc on the new car market and the thousands of jobs it supports”?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, transport is now the biggest contributor to UK greenhouse gases, and road transport makes up some 91% of that, so it is important that we set a target for it, but I agree with my noble friend that it is important that we work alongside the automotive industry, which we are. As I said, we want this transition to be industry and consumer-led, but we must make sure that it is deliverable. We need to cut our emissions to deliver improvements in air quality, but we must do so in a way that allows our automotive industry to continue to thrive.
Lord Broers (CB)
My Lords, this is a multifaceted and complex problem. I hope that the Government will take serious advice from not only engineers but the medical profession—which has changed its mind, creating a certain disorder in the decisions—and from behavioural scientists. Will the Minister reassure us that such detailed advice will be taken before we proceed in a cavalier manner based on politics, in many instances?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I entirely agree that we must work across many departments and get much advice on this. At the end of May, we published our clean air strategy, which aims to cut all forms of air pollution, not just transport emissions. It set out a wide range of actions that the Government are taking. We are working with the organisations the noble Lord mentioned.
Lord Watts (Lab)
My Lords, what discussions have taken place with, and what assessment has been made of the likely impact on jobs in, the car industry?
Baroness Sugg
The noble Lord is quite right to point to the number of jobs in the UK car industry: there are nearly 190,000 direct jobs, and we absolutely do need to protect them. We are working very closely with the industry on this. As I said before, we want to make sure that we set these targets and that they are reached, but also that the transition is done in a managed way, so that our very successful car industry can continue.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, the reality is that the 2040 date that the Government announced is so far ahead as to have no impact on the automotive industry, because individual manufacturers are already announcing their own plans to produce only ultralow emission vehicles. Does the Minister accept that, far from leading, the Government are in fact lagging behind many other countries, particularly within Europe? Do the Government accept that they should reconsider their leisurely timescale in order to have a positive impact on the health of our nation, particularly our young children?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I am afraid that I do not agree that 2040 is unambitious. As the noble Baroness points out, the industry is setting its own targets, which is a great thing to see; everyone is working together to deliver this. On the international point, the UK was the first major economy in the world to set out a challenging ambition to end the sale of new conventional petrol and diesel vehicles by 2040. We are also the second largest market in Europe for ultralow emission vehicles, and for their development and manufacture. One in eight electric cars sold in Europe was made in the UK, and we are ranked sixth globally and second in Europe in that regard, which is a position we should be proud of—but I entirely agree that there is more that we can do.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, the Government’s silver bullet on this seems to be the Road to Zero document. Could she tell us a bit more about it? When did work on it start, and how did its existence become known? I could find only one reference in government documentation, which is to Defra owning it. Why has there been no public consultation, when will it be published and what questions will it answer?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, we have been working hard on the Road to Zero document and are in the final stages of pulling it together, having welcomed the input of many stakeholders. It will be published shortly. I wish that I could give noble Lords an exact date, but I am afraid that I cannot at this point. We are working closely with departments across government on that issue. It forms part of all our efforts to reduce emissions following the Clean Air Strategy consultation, which was recently published. We set out our aim and ambitions in the manifesto, and the two strategies taken together—the Road to Zero strategy and the Clean Air Strategy—will help to deliver those goals.
Lord Patten (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interest, as I should, as the owner of a mark 1, series 1 Land Rover from 1950 which, if it could, would like to run on leaded fuel. What provisions will be made for owners of historic vehicles and historic collections of vehicles in carrying these regulations forward?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I know that historic vehicles can be incredibly popular. It is possible to convert them to electric, as we all saw at the recent royal wedding. However, it may be that not all owners of historic vehicles can afford that conversion, so we have said that the 2050 ambition is for nearly all vehicles to be zero emission. There is in that a recognition that certain types of vehicles may need special consideration.
Rail Timetabling
Baroness Sugg Excerpts(5 years, 11 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made today in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport. The Statement is as follows:
“I would like to update the House on the recent timetable changes, in particular on some GTR and Northern routes. Let me be absolutely clear: passengers on these franchises are facing totally unsatisfactory levels of service, and it is the department’s number one priority to make sure the industry restores reliability for passengers to an acceptable level as soon as possible. I want to assure the passengers affected that I share their frustration about what has happened and that I am sorry that it has taken place.
This timetable change was intended to deliver the benefits to passengers of major investment in the rail network. This means new trains, including all trains on the Northern and TransPennine Express networks, either new or refurbished; Great North Rail Project infrastructure upgrades worth well over £1 billion, such as in the Ordsall Chord and at Liverpool Lime Street; and, through the £7 billion Thameslink programme, new trains and improved stations, including London Bridge and Blackfriars.
The huge growth in passenger numbers that we have seen in recent years demanded expanded routes and services and extra seats, but this timetable change has instead resulted in unacceptable disruption for passengers who rely on these services. The most important thing right now is to get back to a position of stability for passengers, but it is also vital to understand what has happened and why we are in the situation we are in today.
The circumstances of the failures are quite different on the Northern and GTR networks. The investigations being carried out right now are giving more information about what has gone wrong, but it is also worth being clear that the industry remained of the view until the last moment that it would be able to deliver these changes. That is the bit that everyone will find hard to understand and why there will have to be a proper investigation into what has taken place.
On Northern, which is co-managed through the Rail North Partnership by Transport for the North and the Department for Transport, early analysis shows that the key issue was that Network Rail did not deliver infrastructure upgrades in time, in particular the Bolton electrification scheme, with damaging consequences. This forced plans to be changed at a very late stage, requiring a complete overhaul of logistics and crew planning.
The early analysis also shows that on GTR’s Thameslink and Great Northern routes the industry timetable developed by Network Rail was very late being finalised. This meant that train operators did not have enough time to plan train crew schedules or complete crew training, affecting a whole range of other complex issues that impact the running of what is an already congested service.
It is also clear to me that both Northern and GTR were not sufficiently prepared to manage a timetable change of this scale, either. GTR did not have enough drivers with the route knowledge required to operate the new timetable, and neither Northern nor GTR had a clear fallback plan. In GTR’s case, the process of introducing the new timetable was overseen by an industry readiness board made up of Network Rail, ORR and the train operating companies, and an independent assurance panel. Both these groups have told me that they had been given no information to suggest that the new timetable should not be implemented as planned, albeit with some likely early issues as the timetable bedded down. These bodies were set up specifically to ensure that all parts of the rail network—Network Rail, GTR and other train operators—were ready to implement these major timetable changes. It should have been clear to them that some key parties were not ready, but they did not raise this risk.
The department received advice from the Thameslink industry readiness board that while there were challenges delivering the May 2018 timetable—namely, the logistics of moving fleet and staff—the three-week transition would allow minimal disruption. My officials were assured that other mitigations in place were sufficient and reasonable. Indeed, as recently as three weeks before the timetable was to be implemented, GTR itself assured me that it was ready to implement the changes. Clearly, this was wrong, and it is wholly unacceptable.
The rail industry has collectively failed to deliver for the passengers it serves. It is right that the industry has apologised for the situation we are currently in, and that we learn the lessons for the future. Right now, though, the focus should be on restoring the reliability of its service to passengers. This morning I met the chief executives of Network Rail, GTR and Northern, the latest in a series of meetings that my department and I have been holding with these organisations, and the Rail Minister has visited Network Rail’s rail control centre in its Milton Keynes headquarters. We have made it clear to them all that current services are still not good enough. I also demanded that Network Rail and the train operator work more collaboratively across the industry to resolve the situation, where possible using resources from other train operators to support the recovery effort. Officials in my department are working around the clock to oversee this process. We have strengthened resources in both the department and the Rail North Partnership, which oversees the Northern franchise, to hold the industry to account in improving services.
Mr Speaker, I would like to be able to tell the House that there was an easy solution or that the department could simply step in and make the problems that passengers are facing go away. Ultimately, the solution needs to be delivered by the rail industry. These problems can be fixed only by Network Rail and train operators methodically working through the timetable and replanning train paths and driver resourcing to deliver a more reliable service. It is for reasons like this that I am committed to unifying the operations of track and train where appropriate to ensure that we do not encounter problems like this in future.
Northern has agreed an action plan with the Rail North Partnership. It has focused on improving driver rostering to get more trains running as quickly as possible, rapidly increasing driver training on new routes, additional contingency drivers and management presence at key locations in Manchester, and putting extra peak services on the timetable along the Bolton corridor. Work on this action plan is under way. It has also published temporary timetables that will be more deliverable and give passengers much more confidence in the reliability of their service. This will mean removing certain services from the new timetable while ensuring that there is still an improvement in the total number of services being run by Northern, compared to before the timetable change. Alternative arrangements will be made for passengers negatively impacted by the changes. I believe this temporary measure is necessary to stabilise the service, enabling improvements to be introduced gradually.
Today, there are more services running on GTR on a day-to-day basis than before the timetable change, and Southern and Gatwick Express services are performing well for passengers. However, GTR is not currently able to deliver all planned services on Thameslink and Great Northern routes. In order to give passengers more confidence, GTR is removing services from its timetable in advance, rather than on the day, and reducing weekend services to pre-May levels. This will be in place until a full replanning of driver resourcing can take place.
I would like to be clear: while I expect to see stable timetables restored on both networks in the coming days, I expect the full May timetable and all the extra trains to be introduced in stages over the coming months in order to ensure that it can be delivered properly. Once the full service is operating on GTR, 24 Thameslink trains will run through central London every hour and 80 more stations will have direct services to London stations such as Farringdon, City Thameslink and Blackfriars by next year. There will be 115 new trains and 1,140 new carriages providing faster, more frequent and more reliable journeys for thousands of passengers.
On Northern, the Great North Rail Project, an investment of well over £1 billion in the region’s rail network, will, by 2020, enable faster and more comfortable journeys, as well as new direct services across the north and beyond. By 2020, it will see the train operators, Northern and TransPennine Express, deliver room for 40,000 extra passengers and more than 2,000 extra services a week.
However, I completely understand that passengers are angry at the levels of disruption that this timetable change has caused in recent weeks. That is why I am announcing that a special compensation scheme for passengers on affected routes on both GTR and Northern—subject to agreement with the board of Transport for the North—will be introduced and funded by industry, to ensure that regular rail customers receive appropriate redress for the disruption they have experienced. The industry will set out more detail on the eligibility requirements and how season ticket holders can claim. However, I believe that the scheme should offer passengers—particularly in the North, where disruption has been protracted—similar entitlements to last year’s Southern passenger compensation scheme.
It is also clear to me that, aside from Network Rail’s late finalisation of the timetable, GTR and Northern were not sufficiently prepared to manage a timetable change of this scale. Today, I am also announcing that work has started to set up an inquiry by the independent Office of Rail and Road, chaired by Stephen Glaister, into the May timetable implementation. The inquiry will consider why the system as a whole failed to produce and implement an effective timetable.
The findings will be shared at as early a stage as possible with me and the rail industry so that lessons can be learned in advance of future major timetable changes. The final report will be published by ORR by the end of the year. In parallel to the inquiry, my department will assess whether GTR and Northern met their contractual obligations in the planning and delivery of this timetable change. The department will be assessing whether these issues could have been reasonably foreseen and different action taken to prevent the high levels of disruption that passengers are experiencing.
In GTR’s case, the assessment will cover whether the operator had sufficient resources and skills to deliver the new timetable, if drivers could have been trained in a faster and more effective way, and examine the contingency and risk-management arrangements in place. If it is found that GTR is materially in breach of its contractual obligations, I will take the appropriate enforcement action against it. This includes using the full force of the franchise agreement and my powers under the Railways Act, and I will include how such a failure impacts on its eligibility to hold a franchise bidding passport.
In the case of Northern, my department will assess the operator’s planning, risk assessment and resilience in preparing for the May timetable change. Bearing in mind Network Rail’s failure to deliver infrastructure on time, we will hold the operator to the terms of its contractual obligations. I will not hold back from taking appropriate action if the review finds that there has been negligent behaviour.
Finally, as I know that colleagues across the House are receiving correspondence from constituents impacted by the timetable changes, I have arranged for both Northern and GTR to meet colleagues across the House this week to discuss any specific issues that they wish to raise with the operators.
I am incredibly frustrated that what should have been an improvement in services for passengers has turned into significant disruption. I am sorry for the level of disruption that passengers are experiencing. There have clearly been major failures that have led to the situation we are in today. I am clear that the industry must and will be held to account for that, but my immediate priority is to ensure that the industry improves train services to an acceptable level as quickly as possible”.
My Lords, I commend the Statement to the House.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, like the noble Lord I am horrified by the tone of this Statement. The passengers, who bear the brunt of all this, have absolutely had enough, and the lack of any shadow of an apology in that Statement from the Secretary of State is going to anger them even further. The Secretary of State lurches from catastrophe to chaos, and I believe that he thinks that he is Teflon man.
I differ from the noble Lord in that I do not believe that nationalisation is the answer. Indeed, when you look at the ability of the Department for Transport to manage things effectively, one shudders to think of what it would do if it was in charge of the whole lot. I do not subscribe to the kneejerk approach to politics that heaps all blame on Ministers; I realise that government is difficult and that Ministers cannot be expected to micromanage. But I have been a Minister in two Governments and I recognise the point where a Minister has to take direct responsibility when something goes wrong. The Secretary of State has reached that point, and he needs to take that responsibility for his part in this debacle. You cannot claim the credit for something if you are not prepared to shoulder the blame when things go wrong. The latter part of this Statement trumpets the wonderful things that are still going to happen in future; the Secretary of State has trumpeted all this in the past and therefore takes responsibility for it.
Why were basic precautions not taken to ensure that a big change like this ran smoothly? It is the coward’s way to blame the staff and managers involved. Transport Focus warned of potential problems with the new timetables last autumn. Why were its warnings not heeded? What meetings took place with Transport Focus, and between it and the train operating companies, to deal with the concerns which it voiced? For how long has this change been planned? Was there any element of speeding it up to get it done by a particular time, which might have been a factor in why it went wrong? Has Network Rail, or the train operating companies involved, ever raised any concerns about either the scale of change or the timescale for it? The Statement says that there were meetings recently and no concerns were raised then. Were they raising concerns some months back? Why were these changes introduced on such a grand scale, involving several train lines? Would a pilot project not have been a good idea? Given the delays to the Bolton electrification project, why go ahead at all with changes on Northern at this time?
The Statement refers to compensation, but it is not precise. Can we please have exact details about compensation to long-suffering passengers? Finally, the Statement referred to the ORR undertaking an inquiry. Will this be entirely independent? Will it analyse the roles and responsibility of Government, as well as of Network Rail and the train operating companies, so that Government can learn the lessons from this and ensure that it never happens again?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, first I reiterate what was said in the Statement: passengers on these franchises are facing totally unacceptable disruption and we apologise for that. It is our top priority to make sure that the industry restores reliability to acceptable levels as soon as possible, and the department is working around the clock to deliver that. The doubling of passenger numbers that we have seen means that we have needed these expanded routes, extra services and extra seats. That is what the timetable change was supposed to deliver but, instead, it has led to a totally unsatisfactory level of services for passengers who rely on them. We are working closely with Network Rail, Northern and GTR to keep passengers moving and ensure that disruption is minimised. Work has already begun to set up an independently chaired inquiry into the May timetable implementation and deliverability of future timetable changes. This will be fully independent and look at all the issues. In parallel to that, the Department for Transport is looking separately at GTR and Northern.
The first priority is to improve services for passengers as quickly as possible. That is what the Secretary of State, the Rail Minister and officials are prioritising. Although this is not about blame at this stage, it is important to recognise what happened. The industry timetable developed by Network Rail for both GTR’s Thameslink and Great Northern routes was very late to be finalised. On Northern, which is managed jointly by the Department for Transport and Transport for the North, Network Rail did not deliver the key infrastructure changes and upgrades in time, leading plans to be changed at a very late stage. It is also now clear that GTR and Northern were not sufficiently prepared to manage a timetable change of this scale either. The Secretary of State has, indeed, apologised and did so in his Statement. His number one priority is working to resolve this issue.
Privatisation has succeeded in doubling passenger journeys since 1995 and has delivered one of the most improved and safest major railways in Europe. However, of course the system is not perfect, and the changes we announced in the rail strategy last year will ensure that we get the best of both the public and private sector worlds. The new model will keep the benefits of privatisation while, rightly, maintaining vital infrastructure in public hands.
On notice around these issues, the department was aware that agreement on the timetable was running late, and this was industry-wide knowledge. At the beginning of May, GTR informed the department that the delays to the industry timetable process meant that the final timetable would require additional driver diagrams, and therefore more drivers than was expected. GTR put forward a proposal on 10 May, which the department accepted, to amend some late-night, low-patronage services to free up additional drivers, which resulted in 17 services being removed from the timetable until there were enough drivers. However, despite the late timetable, the department was assured that implementation of the new timetable on 20 May could still take place. It was not until two days before the timetable change that GTR informed the department that, following the conclusion of the rostering process, it had identified a significant shortfall in the number of drivers with the required route knowledge. By that point, I am afraid that it was just too late not to progress with the timetable change.
The new timetable had to be implemented as a whole because it was an integral part of the UK-wide rail plan, dovetailing with other train operators’ timetables, as well as future engineering schedules. Across the country, outside the GTR and Northern areas, the timetable is working well.
The special compensation scheme will offer a month’s compensation for Northern season ticket holders who use the services most affected by the disruption. The compensation by the industry will be confirmed shortly for Thameslink and Great Northern season ticket holders. These schemes will reflect the fact that Northern services have been affected since the end of March, and Thameslink and Great Northern services since 20 May. The exact details are being worked out, and the industry will set out more detail of the eligibility requirements and how the season ticket holders can claim.
I reiterate the Secretary of State’s apology for this and reassure noble Lords that, as I said, the number one priority is to resolve this issue.
Lord Jopling (Con)
My Lords, it is one thing to talk about disrupted or affected services. However, as I understand from the radio this morning, in the Lake District there is no service at all. This is absolutely intolerable. Is what has been reported true and, if it is, should what the Minister said about compensation not also be extended to people other than passengers who have been affected by there being no service in the Lake District? There is no good reason why operators of hotels, boarding houses and cafes should not be compensated too. Does the Minister agree that we are seeing such an example of the dead hand of incompetence as we have not seen since British Rail?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, Northern has announced that until the end of July it will run fewer services, but more than it did prior to the May timetable change, to give passengers greater certainty and to increase driver training.
Baroness Sugg
I am coming to the Lake District. Northern will then get back to the full-service timetable, but the interim timetable will see it reduce the number of train services it runs each day by 6%. For the Lakes Line in particular, the noble Lord is correct; for an initial period of two weeks, Northern is removing all services on the Lakes Line to and from Preston, Lancaster and Oxenholme, and it will instead operate a replacement bus service. At the moment the compensation package is designed purely for rail passengers, but I will certainly feed back my noble friend’s point about hoteliers.
Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister believe that it was right for Northern to announce at 5 pm on Friday that it was suspending every single train running on the Lakes Line—in an area with world heritage status—causing great difficulties for students doing their A-levels and GCSEs? Northern made the announcement with just two days’ notice. Will the Minister confirm that the suspension will last for only two weeks, contrary to the claim of bus companies that they have an eight-week contract with Northern to provide cover for services? Is that correct?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, passengers must feel many frustrations around these services and obviously notice of cancellations is incredibly important. They need to understand what services there will be and to know that they will be reliable and function. Both operators are trying to give as much information as possible about these services as early as possible, and they have introduced the new temporary timetable of reduced services so that people are aware of what will happen. As I said, the services on the Lakes Line will be replaced by a bus service for two weeks initially, and I am afraid that that is as much information as I have at the moment.
Lord Bradshaw (LD)
My Lords, I have run two successful railways and have also managed the all-systems timetable. Before we denigrate what British Rail did, we should remember that when I managed operations on the London Midland Region 91% of the express trains arrived on time, not 10 minutes late as happens now. Therefore, it is rather bad to talk down what British Rail did.
Railways are run by two groups of people—operators and engineers. There are lots of lawyers and accountants but they do not run the trains. Politicians and generalists in the department do not run the railways either, and I wonder what effect the constant interference in the running of the railway by the Secretary of State and his officials is having. Constantly calling in the people who should be running the railway to answer fatuous questions is likely to damage the whole system. The whole architecture of managing the railways under the Railways Act 1993 needs to be overhauled with the aim of letting railway professionals manage a functioning railway, and there needs to be a heavy dose of realism. I have two small points to make. First, the chair of the ORR is not a railwayman, so what skills is he bringing? Secondly, raising concerns with Ministers often leads to people being bullied by those Ministers and not being honest about the developing situation.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, on the constant interference of politicians in the railway system, it is absolutely the department’s responsibility to ensure that the railway is run well. When it is not run well, as in this case, then of course politicians will get involved. I entirely agree that the railways should be run by professionals. With the long-term franchises which the franchising system has brought in, there are five-year or seven-year periods in which to run the railways, and of course Network Rail is run separately. We think the head of the ORR is the right person to carry out the independent inquiry, and I am sure he will consult experts. He will be working very closely with the franchises, the department and Network Rail to try to understand exactly what went wrong.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, there is a keen appetite to ask questions of the Minister and we will make more progress if the questions are short.
Lord Naseby (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a commuter on Great Northern and Thameslink. I am afraid I have to inform my noble friend that the service has not improved one iota. Is she aware that none of the people who commute from that area—from Sandy, Biggleswade, Hitchin, Stevenage and so on—is the least bit interested in 2020? What they want is action now. May I make a suggestion? I handled the three-day week publicity in conjunction with the departments involved. Every night, there was communication with industry and commerce and so on. I suggest that there should be a daily meeting involving a senior Minister so that we can get a grip on what the situation needs.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I apologise to my noble friend for the disruption to services he has faced on the Northern route. I absolutely reassure him that the Secretary of State and the Rail Minister have more than daily meetings on this. I agree it is important that we communicate to passengers as quickly as possible the new timetable and the incremental upgrades that are coming.
Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)
My Lords, is not the most extraordinary aspect of this Statement that the priority of the Secretary of State appears to be to argue that everybody else was at fault and that absolutely no responsibility or blame attaches to him? Does the noble Baroness agree that that attitude is not only unedifying but completely non-credible? The Secretary of State was clearly incompetent if he did not know what was going on—he was not asking the right questions. He knew, as the noble Baroness has just said, that the new timetable arrangements were running into considerable delays. As she said, that was a matter of public knowledge. He was equally incompetent if he did know that things were going wrong and did absolutely nothing about it until the car crash.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, as I said, we were aware that there were issues with the infrastructure upgrades and the new timetable but we received reassurance and were not aware that there would be disruption of this level. As I said, on other rail lines the new timetable has been delivered, but GTR and Northern have suffered unacceptable delays and disruption. I repeat that the Secretary of State has apologised, and I do not think it is right to apportion blame today. The priority is to make sure that passengers get a better service as soon as possible. We are also running the inquiry so that we can fully understand exactly what went wrong, learn from those lessons and make sure we do not have the same situation in the future.
Lord Bradley (Lab)
My Lords, as a resident of Manchester, I am fully aware of the chaos that has ensued from the so-called timetabling changes in the last couple of weeks. But there has been cancellation after cancellation on routes throughout Manchester, into the north-west and across to the north-east for months. Time and again, the excuse given has been a lack of drivers and other staff available on those lines. When this inquiry is undertaken, will it look not only at the consequences of the timetabling and the link to the lack of drivers but at the lack of recruitment and investment in the service over the last 12 months, which has led to the current chaos?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right to point out that many of these issues have been caused by not having enough trained drivers to run the routes. Manchester, the north-west and the north-east have been particularly affected because of the recently completed infrastructure upgrades such as the Ordsall Chord, at Liverpool Lime Street and the tracks between Manchester and Liverpool and Manchester, Preston and Blackpool. There is an issue around rest-day working for drivers on Northern, which has exacerbated the situation and means that it has been unable to train the drivers as quickly as it had hoped. However, I assure the noble Lord that driver training will be closely looked at by the review.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the problems with driver training is that small companies such as Northern trains and the TransPennine Express train the drivers and then the larger companies—such as the one that will now be called “London whatever”—poach them? A particular problem has emerged this week because not all the trains are now stopping at Northallerton and many passengers are being abandoned at York on their return journey from London because of the shortage of drivers. Will my noble friend agree to look into that to see how passengers can safely reach their ultimate destination?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I will certainly look into the point that my noble friend raises. She is quite right to point out that, because of these changes and the reduced timetable that has been brought in, trains are not stopping at every station. It is important that we deal with the train operating companies and do all that we can to communicate with them. However, I will certainly look at the provision available to transport passengers if they are not able to get off at the stop that they wish to.
My noble friend raised an interesting point about driver training. The necessary driver training was not completed in time and my noble friend is quite right to point out that sometimes train drivers move to other franchises. We are hoping to benefit from that in this situation. We are working across all train operating companies to see whether we can use other drivers on these lines to deliver better services. But the point about the transfer of drivers to different franchises is certainly something that I can take back.
Lord Liddle (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that in Cumbria there has been appalling chaos with cancellations, and what we have seen is a complete failure of co-ordination on the part of the disparate interests involved in running the modern railway? Does she not accept at least in principle that the answer to a failure of co-ordination is stronger public control? If she accepts that principle in the north—she may not want to see a renationalisation of the railways and the creation of British Rail—at least will the department consider giving real powers and money to the newly set up Transport for the North, a public body, to give it a much stronger role in co-ordinating services in the region? If she is not prepared to do that, what meaning does the northern powerhouse now have?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, this Government have devolved more power to Transport for the North to manage railway systems. As I said, it co-manages the franchise with the Department for Transport. John Cridland, the head of Transport for the North, is satisfied with the powers that he currently has. I acknowledge that this has been a problem of co-ordination with many different train operating companies and Network Rail. That is something that we need to improve. But we think that the solution is evolving the way that we run the railway to rely on the track and train operators across the network with closer joint working between the train operating companies and Network Rail in different parts of the country. That is being supported by Network Rail’s own devolution into a series of regional businesses. As I said, the rail strategy, which we set out last year, aims to move more towards that alignment of track and train, which we think will help.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, the Minister talked about a compensation scheme similar to the one down south. Does that scheme relate purely to season tickets? If it does, what percentage of Northern Rail travellers actually have and use a season ticket?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the exact details of the compensation scheme are still being worked out. It will be industry led. We have confirmed that it is for season ticket holders, as those are the people who have paid for their services already. But the exact details have not been worked out. I do not have the percentage details of how many people own season tickets. I will endeavour to find out and write to the noble Lord.
Lord Desai (Lab)
My Lords, can the Minister ensure that, with the buses that are being provided temporarily, there will be enough of them to carry passengers to where they want to go, that they will be regular and will get people to their destinations on time?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the train operating companies are providing the bus replacement systems. I very much hope that they will be sufficient for those passengers who wish to travel. It is something that we are keeping a close eye on. The performance of those buses will form part of our regular updates from train operating companies.
Lord Judd (Lab)
My Lords, I am another resident of Cumbria. Does the Minister accept that it is not simply this crisis with which the public has been confronted, but the appalling record of industrial relations in Northern? Pain upon pain has been ladled out to the long-suffering traveller. Can she give an assurance that any comprehensive inquiry that takes place will look at the issue of industrial relations within its remit? Perhaps I may also ask the noble Baroness whether the Government are honestly taking full account of the outstanding success of the east coast line under public ownership. Why on earth can it not be recognised that there are areas of public service in the United Kingdom where what we need is an overriding culture throughout the organisation of service to the public, not simply profit-making?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I agree entirely that the railways need to provide a service for the public and not be focused purely on profit-making. On the east coast line, a subject raised by the noble Lord, under public ownership the line contributed less to the taxpayer than it does currently. It is still a successful railway, with 92% customer satisfaction. Recently we set out a way forward through an operator of last resort ahead of the East Coast Partnership, and we think that that will be a success.
On industrial relations, I mentioned earlier the issue around working on rest days which has been a problem as regards training new drivers, which is part of the problem. The inquiry will look at what went wrong, why this has happened and what lessons we need to learn for the future. It will not look directly at industrial relations, but if it turns out that they were one of the causes, the inquiry will highlight that.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
My Lords, Ministers who mess up normally do the honourable thing and resign. Have there been any conversations at all within Mr Grayling’s ministerial team about the possibility of him going?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I can certainly confirm that there have not been any conversations around that.
The Earl of Erroll (CB)
My Lords, my train was cancelled and the next one was delayed, which is why I have arrived here so late. I understand that part of the problem is drivers being assigned to sections of track, such as Peterborough to the London terminals. Apparently, it takes two and a half weeks to train up a driver. However, the drivers who can drive that section and then through to Horsham are busy driving the trains and therefore not available to train new drivers who could alleviate the problem. Are we looking at a month or two months with 75% of trains being cancelled in order to clear this training backlog?
Baroness Sugg
The noble Earl is right to point out the problem. The new drivers need to be instructed by trained drivers, and that is why we have had to implement a reduced level of service, in particular at weekends, so that new drivers can be trained. I am afraid that it will not be a short-term solution, and I am not able today to confirm when we will get back up to the initial May timetables. As I have said, as and when drivers are trained, it will be incrementally added to in order to reach the service level that we were expecting on 20 May.
Railways: East Coast Main Line
Baroness Sugg Excerpts(5 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Cormack
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to deliver on the promise of more frequent direct services between London and Lincoln on the east coast main line following the termination of Virgin Trains East Coast’s contract.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, in 2014, Virgin Trains East Coast committed to deliver six trains a day between London and Lincoln from May 2019. I am pleased to inform my noble friend that we expect these service improvements to be delivered as planned. The change of operator to London North Eastern Railway announced by the Secretary of State last week is not expected to have any impact on this issue.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for that helpful Answer, which will be received with great relief and delight in Lincoln. I ask her to keep her vigilant eye on developments and invite her and, indeed, all Members of your Lordships’ House, to take advantage of a day in Lincoln to see its glorious cathedral and castle when that becomes possible next year.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I certainly reassure my noble friend that we will keep a close eye on developments with LNER. My honourable friend the rail Minister and the Secretary of State will work closely with the operator to ensure that the interests of passengers are protected. I have not been to Lincoln for some time, so look forward to doing so when the train services start.
Lord Blunkett (Lab)
My Lords, while we all rejoice for the noble Lord and the people of Lincoln, is it not perverse that £7 billion spent to improve services in the south-east has not only resulted in temporary chaos but significantly worsened the timings of trains coming on the east Midlands line from Sheffield through Derby and Leicester, so that they have now lost eight minutes on the journey time to benefit those in the south-east? No wonder people voted for Brexit in the north.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the Government are investing significantly in northern transport. With the setting up of Transport for the North, there is now a strong voice to help us allocate funding up there. On the timetable, to which I believe the noble Lord refers, we have seen some big changes in the past week: the biggest change to rail timetables in a generation. That timetable change will deliver improved passenger services across the country—in both the south and the north.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, the failure of the east coast franchise seems to have surprised no one except a few people in the Department for Transport. Given that 92% of the public were satisfied with the train operating company concerned, it was clearly not a failure to achieve standards set within the franchise. Therefore, we must conclude that the failure lay with the Department for Transport in accepting an unrealistic bid that was just too good to be true. What steps are being taken to train staff within the Department for Transport involved in franchising to design and deal with franchises in a much more realistic, thorough and effective manner?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right that we have seen very high levels of passenger satisfaction—92%—under the previous franchise, and we are of course working to continue that. I take her point that the franchising system is not perfect, and we are working to improve it. We are continually refining the franchise model and monitor the performance of all franchises closely. We have evolved and improved bid assessment since 2014 and have a new process to ensure that bids are more financially robust, including a scenario where we look at lower growth than expected.
Lord Framlingham (Con)
My Lords, may I suggest to the Minister that she might reconsider the question of HS2? If HS2 is abandoned, as it ought to be if there is any common sense in the world, there would be plenty of money out of those billions and billions of pounds for all the other projects required on the railways.
Baroness Sugg
I am afraid that yet again I will have to disagree with my noble friend on HS2. Our railways are at capacity; we have seen the doubling of passenger numbers since privatisation, and HS2 is much needed to relieve that capacity and provide a better service for people across the country.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the trains which she pleasingly told the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, would be going to Lincoln will have enough seats for everybody in this House, and that they are not just two-car trains? More seriously, can she confirm that there is enough capacity on the branch line, and on the main line provided by Network Rail, so that these trains can be operated without any disadvantage to other services?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I am afraid that I do not know the exact size of the trains on the new local railway. On capacity, moving towards the east coast partnership, as we are planning to do in 2020, will enable both Network Rail and the train operator to work closely together to ensure that we have enough capacity on all lines.
Lord Beith (LD)
My Lords, who will employ the staff under this arrangement, and what assurances have been given to them about their future?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, that is a key question. As the noble Baroness pointed out, they have delivered an incredibly high passenger service and we should absolutely pay tribute to them for doing so. They have seen a number of changes in the train operating companies over the years. We can reassure staff that changes will not impact on their continued employment; it will be no different from a normal franchise change. Staff will be transferred and their existing terms and conditions of employment will be protected.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
Will my noble friend confirm that the new trains planned for the east coast route will come into service next year?
Baroness Sugg
I can confirm to my noble friend those services planned for next year will come in. The good news also is that we fully expect the new intercity express trains to be introduced on the east coast main line from the end of this year, as planned. That will bring an increase in seat capacity and enable reductions in journey times.
Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)
My Lords, the noble Baroness will recall responding to questions in February on this issue about expansion of services. Lincoln may well be a splendid place, but can we look further north? The Minister indicated in February that new services would start in May 2019 and go as far as Bradford and Harrogate and, perhaps a little later, Middlesbrough and Huddersfield. Is that still the case? Would she like to reconfirm what she said then?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I am happy to reconfirm what I said then. The introduction of LNER will not affect the planned services or delivery. We will continue to see new services in 2019 and 2020.
Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill
Baroness Sugg ExcerptsThursday 17th May 2018
(5 years, 12 months ago)
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Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I did go to that breakfast, so I have heard the hydrogen manifesto, as it were. I also attended a dinner last night arranged by ChargePoint and witnessed my first outbreak of range anxiety among electric car owners, who explained at some length and some volume that 120 miles with the lights on meant about 50 miles. The battery electric formula has still a long way to go. There are many areas where hydrogen might be used, the classic example being buses in London. Hydrogen needs greater emphasis in the Bill. I hope that the Minister will be able to bring forward amendments to produce a little more balance in the Bill so that it does not so blatantly presume a battery solution.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, as I stated at Second Reading, it is this Government’s ambition that every car and van will be zero-emission by 2050. The Government are using a range of tools, including tax incentives and grant schemes alongside regulation and legislation. I acknowledge the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, on the narrow scope of the Bill. The Bill focuses specifically on areas that we have identified as needing the regulatory tools available to intervene in the market so that we might ensure that the UK’s charging infrastructure is easy to use for consumers and that charging is “smart” to reduce impacts to the grid. I agree that we need a much wider strategy. That is exactly what we are working on—although, I am afraid, not in this Bill.
The Government’s upcoming strategy will set out their approach to the transition to zero-emission road transport and drive down emissions from conventional vehicles during the transition. It will include hydrogen vehicles. I apologise that the strategy has not yet been published. We are working hard with other departments and the industry to ensure that the strategy is as strong and ambitious as possible.
Our commitment to zero-emission vehicles is technology neutral. This means that we want to drive forward the development and deployment of any technologies that can deliver a zero-emissions future. At the moment, that capability is limited to battery electric and hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles, although we do not want to rule out other innovations.
The level of support provided to these technologies is dictated by the maturity of their respective markets. There are very few hydrogen fuel cell vehicles currently being manufactured globally—I believe that some 6,500 such vehicles were sold last year.
As noble Lords have said, refuelling infrastructure availability is a key potential barrier to rollout of hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles, which is why they are included in the Bill. Despite that, the UK has secured the position as one of the world-leading, but still embryonic, markets. We believe that hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles are an important technology, alongside battery electric vehicles, for decarbonising road transport.
This is why, since 2014, we have provided £5 million to fund 12 new hydrogen refuelling stations and £2 million for public and private sector fleets to become early adopters of the vehicles—as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, said, commercial vehicles can contribute disproportionately highly to pollution, so that is something we are working on. It is also why we announced an additional £23 million in March last year to leverage a ramp-up in investments from industry in refuelling infrastructure and vehicle deployment out to 2020.
It has always been the intent of the Bill to include both hydrogen fuel cell and battery electric vehicles. That is explained in Clause 8(1)(c), which makes it clear that hydrogen refuelling points are included in the definition of “public charging point”, but I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on charging versus refuelling.
The powers relating to infrastructure provision in motorway service areas and large fuel retailers in Clauses 9, 10 and 11 therefore cover the provision of hydrogen refuelling points. As we have said, the infrastructure around hydrogen will be incredibly important. Having points at those key positions is one thing we will act on. Draft regulations will include hydrogen refuelling points as well as electric battery charging points.
On Amendment 39 and the definitions of “electric vehicle” and “zero-emission vehicle”, as we have said, this part of the Bill is focused on charging or refuelling infrastructure for vehicles. Such infrastructure is defined by reference to its capacity to recharge either battery or hydrogen-propelled vehicles. We think that the Bill includes the relevant definitions necessary in relation to refuelling points. In addition, there is a definition of “electric vehicle” in legislation already, as the definition contained in the Alternative Fuels Infrastructure Regulations made last year mirrors the definition proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. Given that the definitions in the Bill already work as intended, we do not think there is a need to duplicate the definition of “electric vehicle” within the Bill.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, I do not want to be too repetitive, but I have been persuaded by the speakers in the debate so far—and, of course, at last night’s notorious dinner. Again, I hope that the Minister will be able not only to give us warm words but to see whether she can make some progress in tabling amendments that at least partly support the general direction of the debate.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I am very sorry that my noble friend and I missed that wonderful dinner, to which I think all noble Lords were invited last night; our invitations must have been lost in the post. The Government’s aim is to develop our infrastructure so that current and future drivers of electric vehicles can locate charging infrastructure that is affordable, efficient, reliable and easily accessible. The amendments, understandably, seek to improve availability and reliability.
Most government-funded charge points started out as being free to access, but payments have been gradually introduced over the years. Taking a payment in exchange for charging is a crucial step in the development of a long-term sustainable business model for charge point operators that will in turn lead to greater choice and improved future reliability of the network. Of course I agree that reliability is a critical issue, but we think that the market is developing to meet consumer expectations about charge point reliability. We welcome the fact that a number of charge point owners currently report on their level of reliability. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned Zap-Map.com, which incorporates a real-time feed that drivers can use to report on their recent charging experiences and report out-of-action charge points. As this market continues to develop, it is clear that operators will want their charge points to be functioning and accessible to attract customers, and indeed to receive payment.
Some operators are already providing information voluntarily, and as the market develops all may do so. However, should the Government need to intervene in this area, powers can be introduced under Clause 11. As currently proposed, this could require charge point operators to make reliability information available in open-source formats, which could be used to improve the consumer experience. Clause 11 also specifically mentions,
“whether the point is in working order”,
and making this information available will help to incentivise charge point operators to maintain working charge points and to ensure that they can be held to account by customers. I agree with the noble Baroness that for the infrastructure to work, the charge points have to work, and people need to feel confident that they will be able to charge their car—so I agree with the intent behind the amendments.
The noble Baroness also proposes an amendment on contactless card payments. Again, we absolutely recognise the importance of having easily available payment options to encourage the uptake of these vehicles. We have seen progress in this area. Since 2017 regulations have been in place for new charge points to ensure that they are available without the need for any form of membership. This applies to all new charge points from last November, and all existing charge points will need to meet that requirement by November this year. In the policy scoping notes contactless payment is one of a number of potential access or payment solutions, but we are not sure about mandating for this in primary legislation, which could risk forcing charge point operators to overhaul their entire network for a specific access method that may not be the preferred solution by drivers or industry, and may well be succeeded by another form of access. We want to consult on that. In advance of introducing any secondary legislation we will consult drivers and operators before proposing a minimum defined access method. If the preferred option is through contactless payment—which, I acknowledge, it may well be, so that people can easily pay for charging—that would be included in the regulations.
Amendment 50, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, rightly seeks to ensure that the Secretary of State has regard to innovation, customer choice and competition when bringing forward regulations under this clause. Those three things should always be at the heart of the Government’s policy-making, and will underpin any regulations brought forward under this, and indeed any other, clause.
As I have said, I agree with the intent behind all the amendments, and I will consider them further.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Before the Minister sits down, Clause 11 refers only to the provision of information. What we want is action. If no action is taken as a result of the provision of information, it is a waste of space. Why cannot some of the amendments be taken away by the Minister to her departmental officials before Report—at least those which are in no way affected by technological development—to see whether it might be possible to accept one or two of them? That would immediately affect people’s ability to secure the service that they expect when they call at one of these charge points.
Baroness Worthington
I reiterate that we must at least acknowledge that it is not good enough to have nearly one in 10 of these charge points in the vicinity of this House non-operational. Surely the Government should be doing more to investigate why that is the case and to ensure that regulatory powers are introduced to insist that they are maintained. It is just not good enough. We would not expect that to be allowed in any other form of public infrastructure. We are not asking for it to be in primary legislation, we are asking simply for power to be taken to make regulations to require that they be maintained. Given the Government’s apparent love of these enabling powers, I cannot see why they would not take one to require that the charge points are maintained. They are expensive and people rely on them.
Baroness Sugg
Clause 11 refers to information, as the noble Lord says, and covers reliability. I take the point that it is only information. We think that as people will be paying for access, it will be in the charge point operators’ interest to ensure that the charge points are operational. I absolutely agree that we need to ensure that charge points are reliable and are fixed when they are broken.
Lord Redesdale (LD)
I apologise for intervening and I am sorry that I was not at Second Reading. I had this problem yesterday: turning up with a vehicle but someone else with a non-electric vehicle had parked in the space. Will the Government consider fines or enabling powers to ensure that when they work—sometimes they do not—someone else does not park in the space?
Baroness Sugg
The noble Lord raises a common issue. We have seen development in this area with overstay charges, and we are investigating them. As I was about to say, I understand the correct desire for us to consider the amendments again, and I will go back to do so. We want to ensure that the Bill enables improvement in our infrastructure for electric vehicles.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, the Minister has given us a lot of information. I will of course read the record carefully and probably seek to rearrange my amendment in a different format for next time if she does not feel able to address these issues. I urge her to look at this again.
My noble friend referred to an issue which I believe is addressed in Amendment 48 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. This is something the French have dealt with by a pricing regime which means that if you lurk around on a charging point ages after your car is recharged, it becomes a very expensive way to find a parking space. It is perfectly easily solved.
The issues we are addressing are not ones that we have dreamed up from nowhere. It is well known that in London, the pressure on the rollout of charging points for the introduction of electric cars meant that the whole process wobbled and stalled at one point. All the charging points were put in but they were not maintained, so the system fell into disrepute. A new contractor and a new contract appear to have addressed quite a lot of that problem, but the Government need to take this seriously. Otherwise, public confidence will be undermined and electric cars will not take up the position that diesel cars have had in the past.
Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill
Baroness Sugg ExcerptsThursday 17th May 2018
(5 years, 12 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018 View all Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 82-II Second marshalled list for Committee (PDF, 108KB) - (15 May 2018)
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, as a generality I support the thrust of these amendments, but I worry about whether this is the right place for them. Clearly, there is a case for some overall strategic planning, and there is a need for it to happen everywhere. There is also a possibility that that may require some powers to be provided for TfL. But we are trespassing into dangerous waters, because we are getting into sovereignty—and there is no more delicate area in a sovereignty debate than between an area or regional authority and constituent members. I worry whether this Bill is the place to make such a profound move.
I am genuinely open-minded about whether we should press in this direction, but I join the noble Lord, Lord Tope, in urging the department to do all that it can between now and Report to get a negotiated settlement between the boroughs and TfL that, if necessary, we can put into the Bill.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, this is a wide-ranging group of amendments and I shall aim to address all the points raised, so I am afraid that I shall have quite a bit to say.
On permitted development rights and expansion, as the noble Baroness noted, it is already allowed through town and country planning, which allows permitted development rights for one electric vehicle charging point per parking space, public or private. The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, mentioned specific restrictions on that, which were introduced into the permitted development right to protect the environmental amenity of an area—hence the planning permission is needed. However, there is no height limit for charge points installed by or on behalf of local authorities, which are able to consider the impact of a charge point at a particular location, as well as on the safety of road users and pedestrians, and any other local considerations. That is what we want to bear in mind.
In general, the intention of these amendments is an important consideration. Given the change in technologies, it is important that the Government ensure the existing flexibilities and terms of permitted development rights and that they remain fit for purpose—and certainly deregulate where we should. So I shall take the issue away and consider it further with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government before Report.
On permitted development rights in London and TfL, my noble friend Lord Borwick raised the proposal to give TfL or the Mayor of London permitted development rights to install rapid charge points. Again, we agree with the intention behind aspects of this amendment; the installation of charging provision in London is crucial to help to ensure that air quality and climate change targets are met and, despite some excellent progress by local boroughs, many more charge points will be needed. While we recognise TfL’s frustration at not being able to make quick improvements to a road network that it may be responsible for, it is right and proper that it works collaboratively with local boroughs to consider the local democratic process.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Do we know how many of these rapid charge points boroughs have actually been introduced up to now?
Baroness Sugg
Since January 2017, the number is 644 rapid charge points, and they expect to quadruple that and install over 2,600. I acknowledge, however, that we need to up our game on the installation of these charge points.
Baroness Worthington
The table that has been circulated indicates that, of 103 rapid charge points in London, four have been installed on borough land.
Lord Campbell-Savours
It that not in fact our case? They are doing nothing.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I think we all agree that insufficient progress has been seen; we absolutely need to take action on that, but we need to consider the local democratic process. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, spelled out very clearly the opinion of London Councils on this, and we want to see TfL and London Councils working in partnership to deliver what we need, ideally without the need for legislative intervention. We are working with TfL, MHCLG and GLA colleagues on this collaborative approach. A new governance framework has been set up, and there is a cross-party subgroup tasked with addressing these specific issues. The mayor is also creating a new electric vehicle infrastructure task force for London, in which the Government have been invited to participate as a member.
These non-legislative solutions have recently been introduced and are designed to ensure that this collaboration happens. I appreciate, however, that my noble friend’s amendment has a time clause in it, which is an interesting consideration. As the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, says, these are slightly dangerous waters, but we will certainly go away ahead of Report to see if there is more we can do to reach an agreement, or to broker a deal, between the local councils and TfL on this important issue. As I say, I think we have good bodies in place now to work on this, but it will require them to work together. We will come back to this after we have taken it further with them. I thank my noble friend for his invitation; it sounds a lovely idea. Perhaps we could do that after we get this Bill through to celebrate.
My noble friend and others raised the issue of rapid chargers on the Parliamentary Estate. As I mentioned at Second Reading, the authorities are currently carrying out a project to fit the underground car park in the Commons with 80 charge points, although, at the moment, they are not planned for our own Lords car park. Though I can reassure noble Lords that I am pushing on this issue and—hot off the press—I hear that the House authorities are still making a decision on whether to take forward the charge points. They are working with the planning and design authority that is installing the charge points in the House of Commons. I hope to come back with some positive progress, along with a timetable, on Report. If we do not see that positive progress, I will be meeting with the Parliamentary Estate authorities to understand why.
On the removal of charge points, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, raised an interesting proposal. On local highways, the authorities obviously have the ability to require the installation of charge points or prohibit their removal. For other public locations, it is an interesting point. I understand the issue she raises: after installation, we do not want to see them rapidly uninstalled. This consideration is best left to the market and the host sites that have installed the infrastructure. In the same way that a supermarket, for example, should not need planning permission to install a charge point, it might be tricky if it then needs planning permission to take it out again. I also have some concerns that it could have an unintended consequence for businesses or host sites, which may be put off installing infrastructure if they would be unable to remove it in the future. But I understand the point that the noble Baroness makes, especially when grants are involved, so I will take that away and consider it further.
I turn to wayleaves and charging infrastructure rights. Wayleaves are sometimes required for rapid charge point installations that require a new connection to the grid or a grid upgrade, where cables need to be laid across third-party land. Currently, the wayleave agreement is voluntary for the third party who owns the land and there is no obligation to accept the wayleave. In cases where an agreement for a wayleave cannot be reached, the Electricity Act 1989 provides the installer with statutory powers on which it can call if no alternative solution, such as changing the cable route, can be found, so a statutory application can be lodged to the BEIS Secretary of State to award the installer a necessary wayleave. These amendments raise an interesting point, which we have not consulted on yet. We have concerns that the amendments as drafted do not allow for the private rights of the owner of any third-party land to be taken into account, or to allow for any potential environmental effects to be considered. Because this involves private land access rights, we think that we need to seek more evidence and consult a wide range of stakeholders. However, I will take the issue away and discuss it further with ministerial colleagues in advance of Report.
On housing issues and the future-proofing of new homes and developments, the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Worthington, are right to highlight the importance of ensuring that new developments include provision for the necessary charging infrastructure. I am pleased that the Government’s National Planning Policy Framework that has recently been consulted on considers the same policy. When developing local plans, it sets out that local authorities must fully consider the inclusion of charge point infrastructure in new developments. The proposed NPPF envisages that applications for developments should be designed to enable charging of plug-in and other ultra low emission vehicles in safe, accessible and convenient locations. It also sets out that, when setting local parking standards for residential and non-residential development, policies should take into account the need to ensure an adequate provision of spaces for charging plug-in and other ultra low emission vehicles. We think that the NPPF is the right place for such changes to be introduced, so that local considerations can be taken into account by local authorities, and therefore we do not think that we should include such provision in the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised an interesting point about smart meters, which I shall take back and consider.
The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, suggested the introduction of regulation to ensure that leaseholders are not denied the ability to install charging infrastructure. Of course, where agreement can be reached between leaseholders and the landlord, the charger will be installed, but there may well be scenarios where one or the other will not agree for whatever reason—as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, highlighted—such as on who owns the charger, who is responsible for its maintenance and the cost of the electricity where a communal supply is involved. The amendment raises an interesting point, but we need to ensure that, while leaseholders are not denied the ability to install a charge point, we consider those other issues fully, such as the rights of freeholders and landlords.
Baroness Worthington
In the spirt of this Bill being entirely about enabling powers, would it not be sensible for the Government to consider taking an enabling power that can then be used if necessary, given that we are really at the start of rollout, which must rapidly increase if we are to hit our targets? It seems highly likely that we already have evidence of leaseholder-lessee disagreements holding us back—I could go out and gather it all for you. We are simply talking about taking a power to enable the Government to regulate. Otherwise, we will be back here in a year’s time having to go back over this ground again. Surely this is an opportunity to use the Bill to try to future-proof the situation.
Baroness Sugg
The noble Baroness makes a fair point. The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government is doing a review of the relationship between leaseholders and freeholders, so I shall ask whether that might be an appropriate place to consider this issue. I have heard what the noble Baroness said, and I will take that back.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Given that such a review is going on, could the Minister drop us a note to tell us whether this suggestion will be considered?
Baroness Sugg
I certainly will. I will need to go back and discuss whether we can include this suggestion. I am not sure that we will go as far as the noble Baroness would like us to on that, but I will certainly get a conclusion on that and come back to noble Lords.
Finally, on the amendment that would ensure the provision of ducting and precabling infrastructure for new residential and non-residential buildings, in the industrial strategy, published last November, we committed to update building regulations to mandate that all new residential developments must contain the enabling cabling for charge points in homes. That will be an important step in future-proofing new homes and avoiding more costly retrofitting. For non-residential buildings, the NPPF will ensure that local authorities consider the need for adequate charging provision in developing their local plans. Before Report we will consider whether that is sufficient or whether we can go further.
Given these reassurances, I hope that the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Worthington
Before the noble Baroness responds, I want to check that I am clear about that last point about the NPPF. With residential buildings, the expectation is that there might be a shift. However, why would there be a difference as regards leaving it with local authorities for non-residential buildings?
Baroness Sugg
It is purely because in the NPPF we have already committed to the residential side of things and have made that clear in the industrial strategy, while we have not yet gone so far on the non-residential side of things, which I will go back and have a look at. As I said, the consultation on the NPPF recently closed, so we are doing this work at the same time as MHCLG is considering its response to that consultation. I believe it is due to publish that in the summer, but obviously we will have Report before that, so I will take that back.
Baroness Randerson
I thank the Minister for her response. Once again, it is a very detailed issue, and I will read the record carefully.
I will respond on one point. The Minister said that it was not reasonable to complain if a parking space with a recharging point were taken out when it had never had to be put in in the first place—whoever did so did it willingly. That is what I understood her to say. My vision of how this would work is rather akin to the issue of parking spaces. There are planning permissions in certain areas where maybe for a certain size of house you need one parking space. If you choose to put in five, that is up to you; it is not illegal—you can do it. If you then want to take out those extra four spaces, no one can complain, but if you want to take out the fifth, they can. It is an issue of dealing with your minimums and ensuring, once again, that this is always at the top of consideration.
To be honest, I was not frightfully impressed by the concept that local authorities “need to consider” something; they need to address it, not just consider it. I listened with interest to the discussion about the mayor’s plans versus the local authorities in London. There needs to be a solution here which is not heavy-handed in taking away local initiative but which ensures that those local initiatives are empowered and encouraged and run rather more smoothly than they have done up to now. I understand the point that there has not been enough action up to now. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, our Amendment 104 is in this group. This group is about reporting, and different ways been suggested. I hope that when she responds after my speech the Minister will offer to bring them together in the best possible mix and agree to a reporting procedure.
The proposed new clause would require the Government to lay a report before Parliament each year to consider how the regulations are working, and, specifically, the impact they are having on charge point operators, fuel retailers, the National Grid and the overall uptake of electric vehicles. The Government are intending the Bill to enable and encourage the uptake of electric vehicles, and they are right to do so. It would therefore make sense for them to review regularly whether it is actually happening and whether things need to be changed down the line. Involving Parliament in this issue would not only be beneficial for the Government but would enable them to regularly reassess their work. I am sure that the Minister would be saying that to us if our seating arrangements were reversed. We must keep the matter constantly under review and be prepared to revisit it if the circumstances require.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I very much agree that it is important that the Government take a strategic approach to encouraging and supporting the uptake of electric vehicles and the infrastructure that they rely on, that we monitor our progress against our air quality and carbon targets and that we review the effectiveness of any regulations brought forward under this Bill. I know that there is frustration about the narrow scope of the Bill, but I am afraid that it is just about electric vehicle infrastructure. It is not the extent of the Government’s work in this area.
In 2013, the Government published a strategy entitled Driving the Future Today, which set out the path towards achieving our zero-emission vehicle aims. Of course, much has changed since then—10 times as many ultra-low emission vehicles were registered in the UK last year as in 2013. While the aims of that strategy remain relevant, we are rightly considering how our approach needs to change in light of developments in the automotive sector and beyond.
As noble Lords are already aware, the Government will shortly publish a new strategy for promoting the uptake, manufacture and use of zero-emission vehicles, which will set out the Government’s vision and support for the provision of charging infrastructure for both battery electric and hydrogen cell electric vehicles to help facilitate this transition.
The strategy will go wider than just zero-emission vehicles. We recognise that it is also important to drive down emissions from the conventional vehicles that currently dominate our roads if we are to meet our ambitious climate change and air quality commitments. That includes considering air quality and carbon impacts in parallel and setting out the Government’s view on the role of different fuels in the coming decades.
With regard to Amendment 55, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, to review the effectiveness and uptake of the Government’s incentive schemes, the department already keeps under review its existing schemes supporting the rollout of infrastructure and will take the necessary steps to encourage the installation of charge points where they are needed. Further steps will be identified on that in the forthcoming strategy.
I thank the noble Baroness for her suggestions in Amendment 70. We are also looking at the potential of lamp posts. She is quite right to say that not all of us have driveways or garages and so we need to make sure that we get on-street parking right, too. We have an on-street residential charging scheme and we are funding several local authorities to help them to install lamp-post charge points—450 this year. That is something that we are looking to develop.
On the important point of reporting against our air quality and carbon targets, which noble Lords have addressed in Amendments 98 and 99, there are already legal obligations to report and make public data on ambient air quality and emissions of a range of damaging air quality pollutants. In some cases, these obligations implement international level commitments. Of course, the national air quality plan and the clean growth strategy also set out how the Government plan to meet the UK’s air quality and climate change obligations. In addition, we are also already required to report to Parliament on progress against our obligations under the Climate Change Act 2008, of which of course the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, was a lead author. Our ambitions to achieve a greater uptake of zero-emission vehicles is central to delivering the transport sector’s contribution to those obligations and will therefore form part of the reporting requirement.
As I have explained, the introduction of regulations will depend on the precise circumstances at the relevant time, so we are concerned that we may not be in a position to report on the impact of these regulations within the 12-month reporting period set out. The policy scoping notes set out the approximate timings for when we expect the regulations to be brought forward. I will probably follow that up in writing rather than go through the different clauses in detail now because the question of when we envisage the regulations coming in has been raised a number of times in today’s debate.
Our wider strategy for electric vehicles as well as the infrastructure to which the Bill specifically relates will be published shortly. I have mentioned the existing requirements to report against our air quality and carbon targets. We want to ensure that a requirement for reporting on this quickly moving area of technology is not disproportionate and unnecessary, but following the debate today, I will reflect on the points made ahead of Report and consider an amendment on this point. Given that assurance, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Randerson
I thank the noble Baroness for her response and I am certainly happy to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, spoke about space at major fuel retailers. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is right that they often have hundreds of car parking spaces, and that is where we envisage that the charging will happen. The department has no plans to look at purchasing land around such locations. We think that the regulations would need to exclude locations where it is not possible or sensible to provide electric vehicle infrastructure, as we have set out in the policy scoping notes. Of course, space is an important consideration, which is partly why we have identified major fuel retailers as the right place to start.
Lord Campbell-Savours
I am sorry to go back to car parks, but when I travel on motorways I often find the car parks are full. They cannot be used for both parking and for people to put their vehicles on them to charge. In certain conditions, there may simply be insufficient spaces on the motorways because the car parks are heavily used.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Equally, I was asking at the dinner last night about the cost of these chargers. Rapid chargers are £40,000 a piece; we are talking a lot of money. It may be that part of the provision will not be the rapid chargers.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I think that space will be limited at some of these destinations, but they have been identified as the ideal place to start putting in this infrastructure, which is what we are doing. This is the start of the process. We will look at how effective it is, how many charge points are put in and whether they are rapid charge points.
On whether it may be appropriate to require the installation of charging facilities in future at other locations such as supermarkets, railway stations and private and public parking facilities, the vast majority of electric vehicle drivers choose to charge their cars at home at night, but we need appropriate and adequate provision of public charging if we are to see as many electric vehicles as we want in the coming years. However, we do not believe that regulating for provision will always be the right approach. It is a powerful tool, but other levers can be used. We have many grant schemes and policy measures to support the installation of charge points at a range of locations, including many of those listed in the amendment. For example, we have already committed to providing greater emphasis on electric charging at rail stations in our franchising process. Through a train station scheme, Plugged-in Places and the public sector estate scheme, more than 7,000 charge points have been funded in a wide range of locations. Planning policy—in particular, the NPPF— is proving to be an important tool in leveraging infrastructure, future-proofing new developments and ensuring that local authorities consider charge points in their plans.
Proposed changes to the NPPF would require that when local parking standards are set policies should always consider the need for adequate provision for charging EVs. The London Plan is a good example of where there has been a big impact and where the NPPF has encouraged local authorities to take an ambitious approach. In the London Plan, the GLA mandates that developments in all parts of London ensure that for every five spaces one must have an active charge point and one must have enabling cabling for future use to encourage the uptake of EVs.
We have also introduced enhanced capital allowances, a tax relief for companies to support the development and installation of recharging equipment. The first-year allowance of 100% allows businesses to deduct charge point investments from their pre-tax profits.
Specifically on Amendment 73, we have also already announced that we will update building regulations to require enabling cabling in all new residential housing developments, as we discussed earlier. In addition, we offer grant funding for private facilities, through our workplace charging scheme, to support installation; it is working particularly well for electric fleets. As a result of these measures, and because of the opportunities in this new market, we are seeing the private sector taking the lead and chargers are going in at destinations including car parks and supermarkets. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, gave the excellent example of going to Waitrose because it has a charge point. We are seeing growing numbers of EV drivers using such shops in order to use the charge point.
So we are making good progress on electric vehicle charging points; we have seen 500 charge point connectors installed in the country in just the last 30 days. A lot of companies and destinations throughout the country have ambitious plans to install charging infrastructure. Chargemaster is investing heavily in providing EV charge points at key strategic locations, such as hotels, sports clubs and shopping centres and is planning an additional 2,000 units. Asda has charging facilities at more than 100 of its stores. Even the National Trust is installing charge points at places such as Hadrian’s Wall and the Giant’s Causeway. Health clubs and all sorts of other places are doing it too. So we think that the market is working here. My ministerial colleagues meet regularly with the charge point industry—although not at last night’s dinner—and they are confident that we are making progress in that space.
One of the main reasons for the decisions of major fuel retailers is range anxiety, as we have discussed previously. Of course, we need sufficient charging infrastructure on our motorways and major roads so that people will travel longer distances. When we consulted on the Bill, we determined that it was most appropriate to mandate provision at those sites that are crucial in reducing range anxiety. We believe that the Government should regulate only where there is a specific need and not where we are confident that market forces will deliver the necessary infrastructure to meet the needs of EV drivers. Again, I heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said on that.
Amendment 75 is an interesting amendment to enable metro mayors to designate premises under Clause 10, which would allow them to use powers in their local area at a timetable of their choosing. In our conversations with metro mayors it was a priority ask of theirs. As the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, cities and regions play a hugely important role in local environmental strategies and dealing with the air quality challenges they face. Of course, charging infrastructure will need to be part of these strategies. There are some considerations around such an amendment and we need to give it due care and attention. We want to ensure that any regulations or requirements that are introduced receive the proper scrutiny of Parliament. We will be defining large fuel retailers and setting out appropriate circumstances for charge point installation in future regulations. Of course, those regulations will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny; we want to ensure that any powers afforded to mayors or combined authorities in this area can only be exercised within those clear definitions and a defined remit.
Given that these powers are not UK-wide but region-specific there is a possibility that imposing this requirement could encourage the relocation of petrol stations outside of the mayoral area should the requirement be disproportionate. As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, we also need to make sure that it will not mean that areas that do not have metro mayors lose out. As noble Lords will be aware, metro mayors have different devolution deals—that is also something we will need to consider further. We will also need to consider others in the area with transport responsibilities, such as boroughs and local highways authorities, but we think there is merit in considering aspects of this approach. We would not want it to be wider in scope than the locations as currently defined in Clause 10— I was pleased to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, mention that. Local authorities have voiced concern about powers being widened to include locations managed by them, but I commit to taking this issue away and considering it before Report. On that basis, I hope the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Worthington
I thank the Minister for her response. Obviously, as discussed, there are some sequencing issues about when and how you expand scope and for whom. In response to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about different cities having different tiers, we felt this was appropriate for the mayoral cities because with democratic election comes accountability. You would naturally expect there to be powers that come with that. To the extent that we have already accepted that we are allowing cities to change status by having elected mayors, we are tacitly saying that we are okay with that level of devolution and I do not really see that this is any different. It is about accountability: you have the ability to elect that mayor and they should have powers as a result.
I listened to the Minister’s response and will read it again carefully. There is quite a high reliance here on planning and changes to the NPPF to get us where we want to get to. We will probably come to this in the final group of amendments. My overriding concern is that if you were to look at the market today and see the numbers of electric vehicles being sold, why would you do anything? Why would you require that anything be done? The levels are so low. When it comes to hydrogen, they are almost non-existent. This is going to need some kind of kick-start. The latent demand is there among consumers, I am convinced of that. We have the skills and the money wanting to invest in the infrastructure. I fear that we will just not have the cars.
We will have to come back to that. I hope that in the Road to Zero strategy the Government think hard about how we marry all these infrastructure questions with the market restructuring that is already needed. On the basis that the Minister has agreed to take away some aspects of this, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, I shall speak briefly to Amendment 66, in my name. It would provide exemptions for operators with limited forecourt space who could not accommodate public charging points without an expansion of land, and ensure that retailers and operators did not incur disproportionate costs for complying with regulations. The general thrust of the Bill is to make more charging points available, but we must ensure that there are no unreasonable unintended consequences. I do not think the wording of the amendment is particularly good, but I would like the Minister to consider that general approach. There are a lot of powers in the Bill, and if we are not careful we may find some pockets of unreasonableness.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I acknowledge this as a particularly excellent group of amendments. These points are all key priorities that will need to be consulted on before any regulations are brought forward. As proposed in Amendments 63 and 64, it is important that the Government can specify the type of charge points being installed in large fuel retailers or service areas. It is already the Government’s intention, as is made clear in the policy scoping notes, that any regulations under Clause 10 would include details of what provision of electric vehicle infrastructure will be required to ensure that the needs of users are met, and to deliver a quick and hassle-free charging experience, similar to refuelling conventional cars today.
This would include: specifying the level of charging infrastructure, most likely to be measured by number of charge points or hydrogen refuelling points; the specification for that infrastructure, such as the minimum power outputs and the connectors of charge points—I entirely agree that we want to avoid multiple chargers, and another VHS/Betamax situation—and any other operational requirements, such as the opening hours of the charge point. Decisions on those will not be taken by the market; they will be set by regulations—but they will be informed by consultation both with the market and with users of vehicles, to ensure that we get it right.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Is the Minister saying that the motorway service station provider will be told the proportion between one form of equipment and another?
Baroness Sugg
I missed that last point: the motorway service station provider will be told what?
Lord Campbell-Savours
The kind of equipment, whether three-hour, 20 minutes, 12-hour or whatever, to install.
Baroness Sugg
Chargers will normally be based on the power they deliver rather than the time but yes, absolutely, the regulations will set the minimum power output required of the petrol stations installing them, otherwise we could run the risk of a much cheaper, slower charging point being installed which would not do the job we require.
Any regulations would also include the details of the circumstances in which the provision of infrastructure would be required, as proposed in Amendments 65 and 66. As my noble friend Lord Borwick suggested, we must ensure that charge points are easily accessible and not at an unacceptable distance from amenities. That is something that we will absolutely include in regulations.
I turn to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe: whether regulations will entail a list or definition of service area operators to which the requirements will apply and the criteria for the locations at which fuel retailers will have to make specified provision. Clause 15 gives the Secretary of State power to create exceptions from any requirement imposed by regulations, and that will be used where an expansion of land or other disproportionate cost would be required.
As stated in Clause 16 and detailed in the policy note, all the regulations will of course be informed by consultation with industry, fuel retailers, the motor service area operators, the electrical vehicle infrastructure providers and operators, electricity providers and electric vehicle manufacturers and drivers. The regulations will need to take account of an assessment of the current and planned provision at the locations in question, an understanding of the underlying fuel retail and motorway service businesses and the needs of the users, and the factors which will make particular sites more or less suited to the installation and operation of electric vehicle infrastructure.
The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, raised the interesting question of linking insurance with promoting electric vehicles, particularly to young people, and the worry that we will have infrastructure charge points but not the vehicles to plug into them. I reiterate that the Bill is narrow: it is specifically about the infrastructure of charge points and hydrogen refuelling. It is not the only thing that the Government are doing: we will shortly publish our strategy on the Road to Zero, which will look at the targets we set and exactly how we will use the levers we have to encourage the use of electric vehicles.
I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that interoperability and the ability to charge quickly will be a high priority in the regulations. All the issues raised on the amendments will be important, but they will all be addressed in the regulations. Therefore, the amendments are not needed. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Worthington
I thank the Minister for her response. I am encouraged that there will be some good news on the Road to Zero strategy—we look forward to that—and that Clause 10 will be elucidated in regulations. We have talked about this before, but this is one aspect of the Bill that it would be good to attach a timeline to. Perhaps we can talk about that between Committee and Report. On the basis that these issues will be addressed, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, in speaking to my Amendment 106, I want to agree with what has been said by the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. This is a missed opportunity in that, until the last six months or so, transport Bills have been few and far between. I realise that they are falling like confetti now, but each one is so tiny that, between each Bill, there are great gaps in the strategic action that needs to be taken. Ironically, we have been concentrating a lot on the cutting edge of technology—we have looked at space travel in the Space Industry Bill and at lasers. The pace of technology in those areas is very fast, and this is the same. There is a need for strategic thinking, because the detailed stuff is in danger of becoming out of date. The result is that the Government, being aware of that, have written not just narrow Bills but very vague Bills, giving them lots of power to dream up regulations but no guarantee on the direction in which they are going.
The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, addresses in her amendment the need to be accurate about what the Bill is. Turning that on its head, in various speeches in our proceedings I have referred to the fact that the part of the Bill dealing with automated vehicles ignores the street scene changes and the changes to the structure of road safety law that will be needed. In Amendment 106, I have drawn attention to hydrogen. That is another specific example of other sorts of developing technology that are lower emission and deserve to be part of an overall strategy.
My final thought on this is that the Government need to do a great deal of connected thinking on all these little bits of effort. We are in danger of leading people to think that we have a strategy fit for the future. I do not believe that we have.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, throughout the proceedings today we have considered the scope and timings of this legislation, and those two points are captured by the amendments in this final group.
Amendment 105 suggests that the legislation comes into force on the day on which it is passed. Under the current text, the Secretary of State will appoint by regulation the day on which the Act comes into force. The commencement timings that are currently contained in Clause 18 follow standard conventions for commencement, whereby the substantive provisions of an Act come into force on dates specified in regulations. I understand the desire of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, to make sure that the important measures in the Bill are implemented as soon as possible to ensure that we have the tools available to install the infrastructure necessary to support the uptake of electric vehicles in this country, and to enable insurers to start developing products for automated vehicles. I assure the noble Baroness that we do not intend to delay bringing forward this important legislation once it has passed.
As I mentioned earlier in the debate, we will start to bring forward regulations on smart charge points soon after Royal Assent. As outlined in the policy scoping notes, we think that the regulations under Clause 10 will be needed in the early 2020s for battery electric charge points, and not until the mid-2020s in the case of hydrogen refuelling—although that may not be quick enough for the noble Baroness.
As outlined earlier, the Office for Low Emission Vehicles will continue to monitor the market, working closely with stakeholders, to determine when it is appropriate and right to bring forward the regulations. But it is important that the affected sectors are not disadvantaged by having little or no notice of the coming into force of the Act, and that the Government have the flexibility to bring the provisions of the Act into effect at a time when they are ready to use them.
Amendments 106 and 107 would change the Short Title of the Bill. I recognise that there is room for the Bill’s scope to be reflected in greater detail in the Short Title by making more explicit the range of powers included in the Bill, and as we mentioned at the start of this debate, it is clear that hydrogen refuelling is also very much a part of the Bill. It certainly was not designed to get false credit or to be dishonest, so I will certainly look at that issue again before Report.
I should like to take this opportunity, in the final group of the day, to reiterate that this piece of legislation is not the limit of the Government’s activities in the field of electric vehicles and automated vehicles, nor are we standing still while we wait for this legislation to come through. We have narrowly selected the provisions in this Bill to bring forward those that we think are ready and necessary to legislate for at this point in time. We are using a number of other tools to increase the deployment of electric vehicles. Our forthcoming strategy on how we will get to zero emissions from road transport will set out how we will continue to support the transition to zero-emission vehicles, ensure that the UK is well placed to capitalise on new economic opportunities and drive down emissions from conventional vehicles.
I have heard the frustrations of noble Lords today on the level of ambition in the Bill. I am afraid we will not be able to widen its scope. That will be for future legislation after the Road to Zero document, which will be full of connected thinking. But I certainly commit to taking away points raised by noble Lords and to seek to strengthen the provisions where I can. I thank noble Lords for their contributions today, and look forward to returning to the Bill on Report. I hope the noble Baroness is able to withdraw her amendment.
Buses: Wheelchair Users
Baroness Sugg Excerpts(6 years ago)
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Baroness Deech
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to protect the rights of wheelchair users to travel on buses.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, the way people travel should not be determined by their disability, and it is vital that bus services meet the needs of all people who wish to use them. Significant progress has already been made on the physical accessibility of vehicles, with 97% of buses now incorporating a wheelchair space. But we must do more. We are supporting mandatory disability awareness training for bus drivers, improving on-board information, and have announced our intention to develop a package of measures to support access to the designated wheelchair space.
Baroness Deech (CB)
My Lords, it is six years since the courageous Mr Doug Paulley was left off the bus and started legal action, without any legal aid, over wheelchair access. It is 16 months since the Supreme Court judgment in his favour. It is eight months since the department’s task force reported, and now it wants a further consultation. Will the Minister give a date for action? How will the priority of wheelchair users be ensured if a buggy user refuses to move? How will priority legislation be enforced, and how will the public become aware? Has the Minister on her travels not noticed that the purpose of wheelchair and elderly priority seats on London buses and trains is widely ignored?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I have indeed noticed that, and I acknowledge absolutely that there is frustration over the time it has taken the Government to respond to the Supreme Court ruling that was given in January last year. We know that wheelchair users continue to face unacceptable barriers when using bus services, and we are taking action to ensure that they get access to the wheelchair space. In March, the Government accepted in principle the expert recommendations of a task and finish group we set up on improving access to the wheelchair space, and we will bring forward a package of measures later this year to address the issue. I acknowledge that it can be difficult for drivers to force someone to give up a space, and that is why we are speaking to drivers, parents and other interested stakeholders on how best to address this. One option we are considering is to amend the conduct regulations, but we are also looking at driver guidance and how best to raise awareness of the behaviours expected from other passengers.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, I had the privilege of being with Doug Paulley in the Supreme Court to hear that court’s judgment, which made it absolutely plain that the easiest way to resolve this problem was to amend the conduct regulations. The Minister’s predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, said at the Dispatch Box immediately after that judgment that the department would look at bringing forward those regulation changes. Sixteen months on, nothing has happened. To start a consultation when the Supreme Court was so clear seems ridiculous. When will the Government bring forward new draft conduct regulations?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, again I acknowledge why there is frustration on this. As I said, amending legislation is certainly one of the options we are considering. I am conscious that not only wheelchair users rely on access to wheelchair space, and we must make ensure that the approach works for all passengers. We set up the task and finish group to look at this issue and advise us on what measures to take; those experts were clear that the solution lies in a combined approach, including legislation, so as I said, we are looking to amend guidance and influence passenger behaviour. We are working on this and will have a package of measures later this year, which we think will deliver what we need.
Lord Morgan (Lab)
My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, will know, the Oxford Tube bus service has an infallible and excellent system for dealing with wheelchair users, and it operates with complete efficiency. Why cannot other bus companies emulate that service?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I am pleased to hear of the provision of the Oxford Tube service. For many disabled people, the quality of their interactions with coach and bus drivers will be as important as physical accessibility. Since March, it has been a mandatory requirement for drivers of local and scheduled buses to complete disability awareness training, and we are working with the industry and enforcement bodies to ensure that that requirement is implemented effectively. As I said, we are working on guidance for this training and will certainly look at what the Oxford Tube is doing.
Lord McInnes of Kilwinning (Con)
My Lords, although this important work is being carried out, many disabled people rely on community transport schemes. What measures are the Government taking to protect those schemes from the draconian new EU regulations?
Baroness Sugg
I agree with my noble friend that community transport operators provide vital services. We are interpreting the exemptions to the EU regulations as widely as legally permissible within the existing legal framework so that as many community transport organisations and operators as possible can continue to provide their important services. There was a recent debate on this matter in the other place, and my honourable friend the Roads Minister has addressed this issue in detail. I will pass on a copy of his letter to my noble friend and place a copy in the Library.
Lord Hughes of Woodside (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister said that the Government have been working on this issue. For how long, how many staff are working on it and how much time has been spent on it, or is it simply a fig-leaf to cover total inaction?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I am afraid that I do not have the exact number of members of staff who are working on this issue. As I said, in March my honourable friend Nusrat Ghani agreed in detail the recommendations of the task and finish group. We are working on this and will continue to do so, and, as I said, we will come forward with a package of measures later this year.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest in that my eldest daughter had to use a wheelchair for over 20 years. Fortunately, her multiple sclerosis has been treated and she does not use it any more. When she worked with London Buses on wheelchair access, she discovered that you have to be quite sure that the vehicle conforms to a certain weight limit. Manufacturers need to know what that limit is so that they can be sure that their wheelchairs will not break the ramp. If a wheelchair is too heavy, as some motorised ones are, it can cause damage. When my daughter first used one, the driver was very unwilling to take her on the bus, until the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, turned up next to her and said, “Get the ramp out, man”, which he did.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I am just sorry that all disabled passengers who travel by bus do not have the noble Baroness there to help them out. The size of wheelchair spaces on buses and the specification of the boarding ramps and lifts are based on the dimensions of an internationally recognised reference wheelchair. I recognise that many people use larger or heavier wheelchairs, which might not easily be accommodated. It would be difficult and complicated to amend the standard so we do not have any current plans to review it, but we will definitely ensure that the information is readily available.
Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill
Baroness Sugg ExcerptsWednesday 9th May 2018
(6 years ago)
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Lord Berkeley
I am grateful for the noble Lord’s explanation. It depends on whether the road is as defined in Clause 1(1)(a),
“roads or in other public places”,
on whether or not it will be a railway.
I want to point out that autonomous railways are happening at the moment. The centre section of the Thameslink railway is effectively driverless. It does not go very far—from Kings Cross St Pancras to Blackfriars—but it does not need a driver. Of course, a driver is there, but that is the state of technology on the mainline railways, and the underground railways and metros have done it for a long time. Whether the same number of passengers could be taken by these autonomous pods up a railway, road or whatever, compared with a 12-car train every two minutes with people standing is a debate we can have. But I am not sure that I would support widening this Bill to get that far.
I have also been studying a few issues related to the content of the Bill, and recently met the author Christian Wolmar who has written a book, Driverless Cars: On A Road To Nowhere. I recommend that the Minister and other speakers to read it; I am not going to give it away today. Without necessarily supporting what he says, there are issues relating to the human reaction to automation that are quite useful to study, including how close a vehicle can get to the one in front, and all the things we spoke about on Second Reading, which I shall not repeat today. It may take rather longer than some noble Lords think for all this to come about. We are certainly right to debate it now and to concentrate on common standards.
I certainly support my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe. I think he was speaking to Amendment 8, which I did not know was in this group, but he made a good speech and I certainly support it.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, at the outset of this debate today on automated vehicles, I think it is helpful to set out what this Bill is trying to achieve. The provisions within the automated part of the Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill extend compulsory motor vehicle insurance to cover the use of automated vehicles when operating in automated mode, so that victims of an accident caused by an automated vehicle while driving itself will be covered by the compulsory insurance in place on the vehicle. The insurer would be initially liable to pay compensation to any victim, including to the driver who had legitimately handed control to the vehicle. The insurer then would have the right to recover costs from any liable parties under existing UK common law and product liability law.
The Bill therefore requires the Secretary of State to publish a list of automated vehicles which are,
“designed or adapted to be capable, in at least some circumstances or situations, of safely driving themselves”.
The purpose of this power is to allow manufacturers, owners of vehicles and insurers to know if the extension to compulsory motor insurance in this legislation applies to their vehicle. This will provide certainty to the automotive and insurance industries, as well as clarity to the public. The scope of the Bill applies to highly and fully automated vehicles only—that is, vehicles for which, when driving themselves, there is no monitoring or controlling role required of the driver.
This is broadly equivalent, as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, to levels 4 and 5, as defined by the Society of Automotive Engineers—the SAE—and does not apply to vehicles with lower levels of automated technology or utilising advanced driver assistance systems, no matter how sophisticated. It does not apply to level 3 vehicles, and the Tesla vehicle the noble Baroness mentioned would not be covered. We will come to this point later, but level 3 cars still require monitoring by a driver, so they are not fully automatic and are not covered by the Bill. It also only applies to automated vehicles that are or might lawfully be used on roads or in other public places in Great Britain.
I acknowledge the point made by many noble Lords on the narrow scope of this Bill. It was designed with a specific purpose in mind, and I look forward to hearing the views of noble Lords from across the House on the amendment from my noble friend Lord Borwick introducing more powers for the Government.
Regarding the first amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on the inclusion of vehicles manufactured and purchased outside Great Britain, there is already a long-established process, along with guidance on the GOV.UK website, which covers the permanent use of foreign-registered vehicles in the UK. As part of this process, any vehicle which drives on UK roads must already be type-approved. For temporary use of vehicles on our roads, through the Motor Insurers’ Bureau we operate a Green Card scheme—an international certificate of insurance to make sure that victims of accidents involving foreign-registered vehicles are covered. We think this process would be the same for automated vehicles and, therefore, do not think the amendment is necessary at this stage because all vehicles manufactured and/or purchased outside Great Britain will be covered by the existing text.
The Bill does not define automated vehicles by SAE levels, as proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, in Amendment 2. This is because the SAE levels are generalised industry categories describing a broad capability, which could change over time. The type approval of an automated vehicle, the criteria of which have not yet been agreed, will not be carried out according to SAE levels of automation. Noble Lords may find it helpful to note that the UNECE working parties that set the international standards by which vehicles will be type-approved and used have rejected the SAE definitions because they do not meet the level of precision needed for regulation. Instead, they simply set out broad definitions.
The categories set out by the SAE are under continual revision. A direct link to the levels creates problems if the definitions move away from what is needed for the proper functioning of the Bill. I want to be clear: we are not rejecting the SAE levels. They are helpful, but they do not—the UNECE agrees with us here—meet the level of precision needed for type approval and regulation.
Lord Berkeley
Could the noble Baroness explain what she means by “manufactured in Great Britain”? She is aware of all the Brexit debates about certificates of origin, and that bits and pieces and components go right across the world and back again. What exactly do we mean by “manufactured in Great Britain”? Is it just the name on the front?
Baroness Sugg
Happily, the Bill covers vehicles manufactured in Great Britain and abroad: it covers any vehicle. I am afraid I do not have an exact definition, but I imagine that it is when the majority is manufactured in the UK. As I say, the Bill will cover all vehicles, wherever they are manufactured.
On Amendment 33, I am in complete agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, that we must ensure that all new automated vehicles are safe and secure for use in Great Britain. We have many amendments to come on that. We are working at the United Nations level to develop international requirements for vehicle manufacturers on both vehicle safety and cybersecurity. These standards, which are still being developed, will then form the basis of the type approval process which automated vehicles, like conventional vehicles today, must pass before they can be sold for safe use on British roads or in other public places, or get on to the Secretary of State’s list for insurance.
Based on the international UNECE standards, which the UK is actively contributing to, and our evolving domestic regulatory programme, we expect it to be very clear which vehicles, including their software, can safely operate in automated mode. We do not think it appropriate at this early stage to set too precise criteria.
Lord Hunt of Chesterton
You are still not explaining how people will understand and be informed of this. Is there no regulation for that? As I understand it, even manufacturers are conscious of this being uncontrolled. When you buy such a car, you do not know what kind of information you will have and how you are going to be taught about it. As I mentioned, British cars are being provided with little information, unlike the Tesla car. Even for that complicated car they apparently need an hour and a half or whatever it is for training. Is anything being done about that?
Baroness Sugg
As the noble Lord rightly says, for level 3 partially automated cars there is a training system in place before the vehicle is used. For levels 4 and 5 that is something we are working on. We have not seen these vehicles yet, but I agree it will be essential to ensure that people who use these vehicles are able to use them safely. That is part of what we will be looking at, as we put together the regulations.
We think that we need to maintain flexibility to ensure that all the vehicles relevant to Clause 1 can be identified and included in the list, so that we can give insurers the clarity over which vehicles require insurance.
On hacking, we are working with the UK security agencies, including the Centre for the Protection of National Infrastructure, and the new National Cyber Security Centre, to engage directly with industry, raising awareness and promoting best practice. Cybersecurity, including for automated vehicles, has been identified as a top priority in the national security strategy. Of course, it is essential that all parties involved in the manufacturing supply chain, from designers and engineers to retailers and executives, are provided with a consistent set of guidelines that support the industry. As part of this work, we developed, consulted with industry, and published in August last year the Principles of Cyber Security for Connected and Automated Vehicles, a guidance document for the automotive industry on good cybersecurity. Those principles are now informing the work that we do at UNECE level on the taskforce on cybersecurity, which is developing standards, practices, directives, and regulations concerning cybersecurity and their applicability to the automotive industry. We have also set up an automotive information exchange to promote sharing of intelligence and best practice for effective cybersecurity.
I very much agree with the intention of the amendment, but we think that both the safety and cybersecurity requirements of automated vehicles will be covered in future regulations, once agreed at this international level. I hope that, given those arguments, the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Tunnicliffe
The Minister made a very important statement at the beginning, so I want to make sure that I heard it correctly. I think that she said that the responsibility of the Secretary of State would be to list the vehicles that could safely be driven automatically or would safely drive themselves automatically on the roads. Does that mean that the Secretary of State will effectively be certificating these vehicles as being safe?
Baroness Sugg
The vehicles will be certified through the type approval process, following what has been agreed at international levels. That is what will decide whether or not those vehicles are safe. Once that type of approval process has happened, those vehicles will then go on the Secretary of State’s list, which is purely for insurance purposes, so that insurance companies and purchasers of vehicles can understand whether those vehicles require automated vehicle insurance. So it will be a separate process to the list on exactly how those vehicles are certified, which is what is subject to ongoing conversations at international level. We do not yet have those standards, but we are working towards getting them, which will certify whether a vehicle is safe. Given that, I hope that the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment at this stage.
Baroness Sugg
I am afraid that we do not have a specific timetable. Obviously, technology is developing all the time, and we do not yet have the technology available for type 4 and type 5 vehicles. We are working closely, as I say, at United Nations level, and are also working as part of that with both vehicle and software manufacturers to be able to define those standards. Given that we do not yet have the technology, we are not yet able to define the standards, so I am afraid that it will slightly depend on how things progress. However, we play a leading role in this and, as soon as these international standards are set, we will then be able to use them for our type approval for standards within the UK and declare it legal and safe for those vehicles to be driven in the UK.
Baroness Randerson
I thank noble Lords and the Minister for her comments, and particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, for his support on the need for a more precise definition.
In response to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I clarify that I have specified levels 4 and 5 because that is what the Government have said that the Bill applies to. If the Government want it to apply to level 3 as well, that is fine. The principle is the need for a clearer definition; the use of levels rather than the definition is what I am suggesting.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked how long it would take to get used to automated vehicles. If you drive a minibus, it comes as a bit of a shock to find that you are sort of on top of the car in front of you, in comparison with driving a car, when you expect to have a bonnet in front of you. We are getting used to new ways of driving. As I have mentioned before to noble Lords, I have an electric car, and that is a totally different style of driving. We will get used to it more quickly than perhaps some people think.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, if we imagine a future with a lot of autonomous vehicles around, one of the things that such a vehicle needs to do is predict how other autonomous vehicles will react in particular circumstances—that is, if faced with a sudden unexpected obstacle, the priority will be to veer to the left, say. That knowledge can come only on the basis of a shared understanding of the software that each of them has and of the capabilities in terms of awareness of the local picture and the wider picture that are built into the vehicle. To allow those things to be tampered with by back-street garages and amateur electricians seems to me to go against the whole advantage of moving towards autonomy. Therefore I very much support what the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, is aiming at. I think we need really clear control of the quality of maintenance.
I can see what the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is aiming at in removing “or adapted”; we do not allow people to adapt Boeing 747s in a random sort of way. They might do it to trial things and have a bit of their own airspace to wander around in while they are doing it, but we should be really cautious in allowing widespread adaptation. Every adaptation introduces another complication that every other autonomous vehicle would have to be aware of. Adaptation should be confined to test areas and test tracks, and what appears on the public scene should be a well-understood, well-documented vehicle—and not too many different kinds, please.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I will first address Amendment 3, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, regarding the removal of “or adapted” from Clause 1(1). It may be that in the future vehicles could be adapted to be capable of driving themselves safely. It could also be the case that some future vehicles are designed to be ready for full automation at some point after their sale but not yet fully capable.
I do understand the concern around this, as we have not yet seen such vehicles in the marketplace, but, given that we cannot predict how these vehicles will evolve, it is important to ensure that we do not prematurely preclude such technology—or, as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, put it, slam the door on potential innovation. Happily, it would not be up to the Secretary of State or, indeed, the Department for Transport, to decide whether an adapted vehicle was safe. Whether it was a vehicle adapted by an enthusiast in their back yard, or with a software update from Tesla, it would be subject to the same type of approval process before it could be legally used on our roads. So I can reassure noble Lords that a vehicle with any such adaptation would be on the Clause 1 list—and therefore have insurance, and be on our roads legally—only if the adaptation was considered safe.
On Amendment 29, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, is of course absolutely right to be concerned that automated vehicles meet appropriate safety standards and that the inspection, repair and maintenance of an automated vehicle is done in an authorised way. Motorists with these new vehicles will clearly expect the same level of knowledge and customer service they have come to expect for conventional vehicles. However, we believe that at this stage it is too early to develop a full training, licensing, and accreditation scheme for automated vehicles, or to legislate on how automated vehicles are inspected, maintained and repaired.
As I have said, the Bill is focused on ensuring a sensible insurance regime, and we do not believe that it is the right time to legislate further on maintenance in the manner outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, given that the UNECE harmonised technical safety standards have not yet been agreed for these vehicles. As I said in debate on previous groups, these conversations around safety standards are ongoing, with the UK actively participating in these important discussions.
Lord Tunnicliffe
Might the noble Baroness meet us half way by giving us an assurance that at an appropriate time such a scheme will be developed?
Baroness Sugg
I am happy to give the noble Lord that assurance. I think that, in order for the UK to remain a leader in the development and deployment of AV technology, we will of course need the right skills. If we are to secure an automated future we will need them in ongoing repair and maintenance as well as in design and technology.
We are working with the relevant technology and professional bodies on this issue, alongside the DVSA. We are also working with the Automotive Council on improving skills in the sector by developing new trailblazer apprenticeships and targeting areas where there are skills shortages, as well as co-ordinating work across the sectors. As the professional body for the automotive industry, the Institute of the Motor Industry is well placed to help the Government understand the challenges of ensuring that automated vehicle maintenance and repair is carried out in a professional and safe manner. We hold regular meetings with the IMI, at both official and ministerial level, to discuss the potential models of regulation that we will need for AV skills testing.
As I said, I understand noble Lords’ concern in this area. As the technology develops and matures we will consider such an accreditation scheme and what, if any, government intervention would be needed to ensure that we have enough skills to make sure that the industry can develop. We fully expect there to be other pieces of regulatory and legislative reform in due course as part of our wider programme.
While I can reassure noble Lords that the work on training and accreditation is progressing well, I am afraid—I feel I will be saying this a lot today—that, as the Bill concerns an insurance framework, we do not feel it is an appropriate place to include such an amendment. But I hope that the reassurances I have given on the work that is ongoing in this area, and that in due course we will be looking to implement such a scheme, will allow the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I think there is a difficulty with what my noble friend’s Amendment 4 proposes. There is no reason to suppose that we will not have vehicles that are dual-capable—capable of being driven by people and driven autonomously—maybe as part of the evolution to a fully autonomous system. I do not suspect that a farmer will want their Land Rover to be autonomous for a long time in the future, except when it is on a roadway and switching between two modes may become quite important. Therefore, a vehicle that is capable of switching between the two modes, and is therefore not always autonomous, will be an important part of the evolution to autonomous vehicles.
I also suspect that once a vehicle is autonomous, it will not ever be truly not in someone’s charge. If you have a set of vehicles which are essentially public vehicles—small buses, which are just picked up on the street and you take one to wherever you are going—some kind of alarm system will be necessary. There will probably be some oversight in case of a known problem: you will want to say, “Right, all vehicles within a particular radius shall slow down or stop because there appears to be some problem developing here”. Defining who is in charge of a vehicle where those capabilities exist will be quite problematic. This comes back to my wanting the Government to give themselves the flexibility to adapt the regulations as circumstances change, our knowledge improves and systems move.
The picture the Government paint of a Bill every year is just not feasible: government does not work that way. This sort of backwater gets a Bill every four years if we are lucky. We absolutely have to reckon that this Bill has to last the rest of this Parliament and probably the first year or two of the next. There is not the space in a Government’s life for off-centre Bills on a regular basis. The Bill is underpowered for the mission it sets out to achieve.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, as I mentioned in the debate on the first group of amendments, the scope of the Bill applies only to highly and fully automated vehicles; that is, vehicles for which, when driving themselves, there is no monitoring or controlling role required of the driver. I appreciate my noble friend’s efforts to clarify the language in the Bill in this series of amendments. I will try to help with the definitions, although, as the noble Lord, Lord Rees, said, these terms are highly subjective.
On Amendment 4, it is anticipated that the first automated vehicles to reach the UK market will be able to be used in automated mode only in specific circumstances or situations. These could include instances where vehicles have been geo-fenced, and are therefore able to operate only in specific, defined areas, or systems that would operate only on motorways and other high-speed roads, or indeed in the way my noble friend Lord Lucas described earlier. These vehicles may not be capable of driving safely in all situations, so we believe it is essential that the wording,
“in … some circumstances or situations”,
remains within the Bill so that such vehicles can get on the Secretary of State’s list and get insurance.
Lord Maxton
The Minister keeps talking about “vehicles” and not “cars”. Vehicles are already being used in agriculture. They do have to go on roads, however; for example, to go from one field to another. Is that part of the definition?
Baroness Sugg
I know that this issue came up in the noble Lord’s committee. It is something we are looking at. Again, we will probably equate it to the existing situation with agricultural machinery: only if it needs to be lawfully insured at the moment will it need to be lawfully insured as an automated vehicle.
On Amendment 5 and the proposal to remove “safely” and Amendment 34 to define “monitoring”, as my noble friend said, the Bill uses “safely” to distinguish between vehicles with high or full automation, which are covered by the Bill, and conditionally automated vehicles, which are not. Conditionally automated vehicles need the human user to monitor their driving at all times. Highly and fully automated vehicles do not need such monitoring in automated mode: they can operate safely without it.
That is why we think we need “safely” in the definition in Clause 1 that highly and fully automated vehicles are,
“capable, in at least some circumstances or situations, of safely driving themselves”.
The definition of “driving itself”, given in Clause 7, is,
“in a mode in which it is not being controlled, and does not need to be monitored, by an individual”.
So the Bill covers vehicles that have been designed to be able to drive themselves—safely, with no monitoring needed, in at least some situations. Without “safely”, we think that the Bill would cover—incorrectly—vehicles in which the driving tasks are shared conditionally. However, I have listened to the arguments made in this and earlier debates and will look at the definition in the Bill and see if there is anything we can to do clarify it further.
On Amendment 6, it is certainly our intention that only vehicles that are considered safe at the time at which the list is made or updated are included. I will consider the arguments made today and see whether we can make a clarification here.
On my noble friend’s Amendments 7, 31 and 32 regarding control, we think there are risks in using more specific terms at this stage, given that we cannot predict how the technology will evolve. I ask noble Lords to take account of this point throughout today’s debate. It is important to utilise broad language at this stage. We have used general terms to reflect the policy intent in establishing the compulsory insurance framework. As the scope of the Bill applies to vehicles for which, when driving themselves, there is no monitoring or controlling role required of the driver, we do not feel that we need to further define “control” at this stage.
On the subject of roads, my noble friend Lord Borwick raised an interesting point in Amendment 35 —he was backed up by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley—regarding the definition of “road” in the context of Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act. I think we can clarify this further to make it explicit in the Bill. I will look at tabling an amendment on that ahead of Report.
I have attempted to clarify the definitions here, but following the points made in this and earlier debates, I will look at the definition in Clause 1 to ensure it is clear that only vehicles that can be lawfully used in self-driving mode will be included in the list.
In response to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, in the previous debate, I will follow up this session with a detailed letter, as well as a meeting ahead of Report to discuss the issues further. Given these reassurances, I hope that my noble friend feels able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Borwick
My Lords, I have been surprised by the Bill and the discussions on it because it is fairly unusual to find circumstances where there is the kind of debate that will happen on the next set of amendments about “must” and “may” regarding what the Government can do. Normally the Government suggest that the wording should be that they “may” do something while Back-Benchers push for it to be that they “must” do something. Here we have entirely the reverse of that problem. Similarly, when my noble friend Lord Lucas proposes that the Government should have the right to regulate on safety standards—I have a similar amendment coming much later—normally it is a matter of the Government wanting to have the powers to regulate and the Back-Benchers suggesting that they should not. Here again we have the reverse of that standard, but this is a new industry and perhaps we have new ways of legislating for it.
The points that my noble friend Lord Lucas and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, make are entirely right: we need standards. However, I think so many things are happening with this that the power to make regulations should be wider than just in respect of standards. That is why I have tabled Amendment 30, which will be dealt with towards the end of our debate today. I support my noble friend’s amendment as far as it goes. I think my amendment is slightly better than his but we can deal with that problem later.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I fully appreciate that we will see fast-moving technological developments in this area in future. With that in mind, I understand the intent behind noble Lords’ amendments on safety criteria and standards. It is going to be critical to ensure that automated vehicles are safe for effective deployment on UK roads. As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, rightly points out, their safety will also need to be maintained throughout the vehicle’s lifespan, as is the case for conventional vehicles today.
There is a long-established process in place for setting vehicle standards, which we have touched on before. The UNECE’s World Forum for Harmonization of Vehicle Regulations is tasked with creating a uniform system of regulations for vehicle design in order to deliver high levels of vehicle safety and environmental protection and facilitate international trade. These UN regulations, of which there are over 140 in number, contain the provisions for vehicles, their systems, their parts, their equipment related to safety and environmental aspects. So they provide the legal framework, allowing member countries such as the UK to establish harmonised international-level UNECE regulatory instruments concerning motor vehicles and motor vehicle equipment. They include performance-oriented test requirements as well as the administrative procedures. The latter address the type approval of vehicle systems, parts and equipment, the conformity of production and the mutual recognition of the type approvals granted by member countries.
The standards by which automated vehicles will be approved safe for sale and use are still being discussed internationally at this UNECE working group, where the UK plays a leading role. We expect them to follow the way in which conventional vehicles have been judged safe to use. I will certainly look carefully at the words of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, to help inform our approach in those negotiations. We work with bodies such as the International Organization of Motor Vehicle Manufacturers, which participates in these discussions in a consultative capacity. We think that this is likely to form the basis of the type approval process which automated vehicles, like conventional vehicles today, must pass to be sold for safe use on UK roads.
Based on international standards and our evolving domestic regulatory programme, we expect it to be very clear which vehicles, including their software, can safely operate. The vehicles approved as safe by type approval will then go on to the list, so that our domestic insurance framework is clear which vehicles need which insurance products. The Clause 1 list of automated vehicles will not be the mechanism by which automated vehicles are regulated in relation to safety and security. That will be governed by future laws and technical standards, which we expect to be developed with the appropriate level of scrutiny and consultation, just as current road traffic laws and vehicle standards are developed.
On the important point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about consultation, these changes to domestic legislation, including road traffic laws and vehicle requirements, will generally undergo public consultation and have impact assessments carried out. They are subject to parliamentary scrutiny when amending legislation is laid in the House. Throughout the development of our policy in this area, we have consulted closely with industry. Given the understandable interest in this new area, we fully expect there to be full consultation when we see the regulations appear for automated vehicles. So I agree with the intention of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, to consult on the standards that will be set for automated vehicles. That is something that we plan to do, but I am again afraid that I cannot agree that this Bill, which relates to insurance provision only, is the right place for it.
I fully expect that future regulations for automated vehicles will cover many of the points in Amendment 10, including environmental issues, but we think that legislating in any way further, in the absence of the more detailed knowledge of the ultimate international design standards, risks us regulating ineffectively, potentially creating barriers to the use of this technology in the UK and therefore impeding innovation.
As the new technologies reach the point of market readiness, we will be able to set and define the standards, both internationally at a UNECE level and, depending on the outcome of the international discussions, domestically as part of our ongoing regulatory programme. As I have said, we fully expect this to be subject to full consultation.
Baroness Worthington
I wanted to ask the Minister whether she thought there was value. I understand that there will be lots of ongoing discussion, but there may be value in taking some enabling powers now so that we can move forward quickly. This is quite a competition among many nations, and it would be a great shame if we were to lose this parliamentary opportunity to take some enabling powers now.
Baroness Sugg
I agree with the noble Baroness that this is a fast-moving industry, and we absolutely want to position ourselves at the front of it. As my noble friend pointed out, I am in an unusual situation of being offered powers to Government. This is a narrow Bill, which I acknowledged at the beginning. We have been trying to ask only for powers which we know how we will use in the future. We have an amendment from my noble friend coming up on that, and it has been interesting to hear people’s views. At the moment, the Bill is focused entirely on insurance, but I will be interested to hear views from everybody around the House ahead of Report.
In Amendment 11, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, is right to be concerned that vehicles must meet the appropriate safety standards, both before they are sold and to ensure their ongoing roadworthiness. They are important issues that will require attention from the Government, and we certainly expect safety throughout the vehicle’s life to form the basis of future regulation. We do not yet know, because of the technology, the timescale to expect for regular vehicle checks. As the standards have not yet been set, I am afraid that we are unable to introduce those detailed regulations at this time and in this Bill.
Lord Craig of Radley
On that point, the Minister says that the Government cannot introduce regulations at this time. Will it be primary legislation to do that, or does existing legislation give them the opportunity to produce regulations as and when required?
Baroness Sugg
Under the construction UNECE regulations, which are how we deal with conventional vehicles, we are able to introduce regulations, which is a potential future for automated vehicles. We have asked the Law Commission to do a far-reaching review on our regulatory framework for automated vehicles. That is designed to promote the safe development and use of automated vehicles, identify areas in the law that may be barriers to the use of automated vehicles, and propose potential solutions. One of those barriers was that we did not have an insurance framework, and those vehicles could not be insured. That is the purpose of the Bill. We are working with the Law Commission to understand where we need to make further primary or secondary legislation. As and when appropriate, the Government will come forward with legislative and regulatory proposals, and will absolutely consult on the detail.
I turn to the role of the insurer and my noble friend Lord Lucas’s Amendment 22. It is the policy intent of the Bill that it mirrors existing processes as closely as possible without making complex legislative changes to the existing framework. A vehicle is insured if there is in force, in relation to the use of the vehicle on a road or other public place in Great Britain, a policy of insurance that satisfies the conditions in Section 145 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. It is the contractual obligation of the insured person to provide accurate information to the insurer. Failure to do so may result in the policy being voided.
I understand that there is concern that we are proposing an insurance framework before we have agreed the safety standards, and before we are sure how we will regulate for those, but as I said, the Bill is designed to enable insurers to begin developing new insurance products, in response to a request from the insurance industry. We want those insurance products to be developed now so that it will encourage further investment and research in automated vehicles in the country—something I am sure noble Lords are in favour of.
I hope that these words have assured noble Lords that there will be comprehensive safety standards, which will be informed by consultation, to ensure that only automated vehicles that can be used safely will be placed on the list. Again, I am afraid, as the Bill is solely considering a list in relation to the insurance framework and not these safety standards at this stage, I hope the noble Lord feels able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, before the noble Lord deals with his amendment, may I say that I am sad that I was right that the Government are determined to keep the Bill within its current scope? They are missing considerable opportunities in regard to my noble friend’s description of what the Bill would do: enable the insurance industry to develop new products, and enable us in this aspect to be ahead of the game and part of the international conversation. She talks about the advantage of legislating now, but the Government will not legislate now in other areas where they could simply and where I think the House would be inclined to give them quite wide powers to get on in this area. I am disappointed that the Government are taking this action. If I find opportunities beyond today to do something about it, I look forward to taking them.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, about “must” and “may”. It is interesting that the Government like to put “must” on its own. I am sure the Minister will have a view on that.
I have a short comment on Amendment 12, which is in this group. I support it. The Minister may say it is too early but, if you are going to have a written notice under proposed new subsection (2), surely the documentation, certificates or anything relating to not only the vehicle but the software, control system and everything else should be included.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend on further regulatory powers in the Bill. As I said, I would be interested to hear views from noble Lords from across the House on further regulatory powers later but, at this stage, we are just not ready to make further regulation. That is why we have not asked for the powers.
The purpose of the list in Clause 1 is to allow manufacturers, owners of vehicles and insurers to know if the extension of the compulsory motor insurance in this legislation applies to their vehicle. The aim is to provide certainty to the automotive and insurance industries, as well as clarity to the public. As I have said, the list itself is not a mechanism to approve which vehicles are safe to use. This will be determined by future regulation, most likely based on international standards. The list in Clause 1 is simply to inform the insurance industry which vehicles require automated vehicle insurance.
My noble friend Lord Borwick’s Amendment 9, which replaces “must” with “may”, would imply that preparing, updating or publishing this list might be at the Secretary of State’s discretion. We believe it is right that the Bill imposes a duty on the Secretary of State, who “must” ensure that the list, comprising any vehicle that may lawfully be used when driving itself on roads or other public places in Great Britain, is published and kept up to date. If the list is not updated, people may obtain the wrong type of insurance, leading to difficulties for victims in securing compensation quickly and easily. As I said, this aims to provide certainty.
In order for the Bill to deliver the insurance framework that it is intended to—this is after consultation with the insurance industry—it is important to maintain the list as a duty on the Secretary of State. Perhaps this is something we can discuss further before Report.
Amendment 12 concerns the duty of a manufacturer to notify the Secretary of State. I understand my noble friend’s intention but, at this stage, it is not appropriate to legislate in this regard. There are already existing processes in place when registering a vehicle or notifying changes regarding a status of the vehicle, and we are working with the DVLA on how to replicate these processes for automated vehicles. We have yet to complete that work, so we do not feel it is the right time to legislate in this regard. I hope that, given this explanation, my noble friend is able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Borwick
I should perhaps earlier have declared my interest as chairman of the advisory board for the Gateway autonomous vehicle in Greenwich project, which has done a lot of work on the subject that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned—the habit of pedestrians testing autonomous vehicles. They found that in time, that habit reduces, not because the relevant pedestrians are squashed by the autonomous vehicle but because they get bored with the test. They might try it once, as a teenager, but they do not bother to try it again: it is a boring process. Boring a teenager is not something we should use as the basis of a safety standard, but it is a powerful factor in this matter. I very much support the amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and myself.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, my noble friend’s Amendments 13, 14, 15, 16, 18 and 24 seek to clarify the definitions of “damage” and “accident”, terms which are already in common use in road traffic legislation and case law. It may help if I set out how we have intended the provisions in this Bill to work. They are intended to mirror the existing conventional vehicle compulsory third-party insurance framework, found in the Road Traffic Act 1988, for automated vehicles. However, the Bill’s read-across with the Road Traffic Act has to be adjusted at times to allow for the lack of a driver when an automated vehicle operates in automated mode, which means that the Bill makes use of the word “accident” as a way of introducing the word “damage”, which in turn is defined in the Bill in a way that mirrors the meaning of “damage” in the Road Traffic Act 1988. Again, as I said, the aim of the Bill is to provide consistency with conventional vehicles in the 1988 Act.
“Damage” is defined within Clause 2 as,
“death or personal injury, and any damage to property other than … the automated vehicle … goods carried for hire or reward in or on that vehicle or in or on any trailer (whether or not coupled) drawn by it, or … property in the custody, or under the control, of … the insured person … or … the person in charge of the automated vehicle at the time of the accident”.
As I highlighted earlier, the policy intent of the Bill is that it mirror existing processes as closely as possible without making complex legislative changes to the existing framework. I appreciate the challenge from my noble friend in testing the Bill’s wording, but we believe that the task of mirroring the existing processes in the 1988 Act is best done by the wording as it currently stands.
Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill
Baroness Sugg ExcerptsWednesday 9th May 2018
(6 years ago)
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Lord Borwick
My Lords, I think I rather agree with the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, about Amendment 28, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, being better than my Amendment 23. It is better because the point about manufacturers going bust had not occurred to me—so putting it into the passive is a much better way of doing it.
Amendment 25 seems to be approaching a sort of strict liability basis, with the automated vehicle’s insurer responsible even if that vehicle was not responsible in any way for the accident. I refer him to the accident that was reported a couple of days ago with a Waymo vehicle in which another car went into it. It was absolutely not the fault of the automated vehicle; it was hit by a manually controlled car. In that case it would seem to be particularly unfair that the insurer of the automated car had to pay out and then recover from somebody else. That was an entirely innocent case where the automated vehicle was totally not responsible for the accident.
A lot of this will come out in due course as we learn more. It is a problem at this stage that we have to legislate to get the insurance right in an industry that is developing.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, the provisions in the Bill will ensure that victims of an accident caused by an automated vehicle that is driving itself will be covered by the compulsory insurance in place on the vehicle. It is the intent that the victims of such accidents will get quick and appropriate compensation.
In Amendments 23 and 28 my noble friend Lord Borwick and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, raise the important issue of safety-critical updates to vehicles. It is not the function of the Bill to provide software standards or requirements for automated vehicles. The Bill provides an insurance framework so that victims have quick access to compensation in line with existing practices, and is just one element of a wider regulatory programme to ensure that people and businesses in this country can benefit from the safe introduction of automated vehicles.
The purpose of Clause 4 is to deal with the relationship between the insurer and the insured person in certain circumstances. This addresses the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. It exists specifically to deal with the insurer’s freedom to exclude liability in the small number of potential situations where the owner needs to act to install a safety-critical software update and knowingly chooses not to install it, or the owner makes unauthorised software alterations, thus putting themselves and others in harm’s way. The clause is designed specifically to deal with that. It mirrors the situation for the compulsory insurance of conventional vehicles, where a driver would not be protected if they drove a vehicle that they knew was unsafe or not roadworthy.
Lord Tunnicliffe
Perhaps the Minister could help me a little here. If a vehicle is not insured today, and a pedestrian is harmed, say, who had no responsibility at all, my understanding is that they will get an instant payout from some sort of collective fund. Is that correct? If it is, is it the intention of the Bill to have a similar situation, including possibly defective software?
Baroness Sugg
I am pleased that the noble Lord has allowed me to address this point, because it goes to defective software. As the noble Lord said, it would be a legal requirement that all automated vehicles must be insured, but there will be instances when vehicles are driven illegally, as we see today. I will take this opportunity to clarify that the Motor Insurers’ Bureau will continue to play the same role as it does now with uninsured and untraced drivers, so that victims involved in collisions with uninsured automated vehicles will have quick and fair access to compensation, in line with conventional insurance practice. This arrangement is not currently covered in legislation nor included in this legislation; it is covered through an agreement between the Secretary of State and the Motor Insurers’ Bureau. We are discussing what changes are needed to that agreement to sufficiently and appropriately incorporate automated vehicles within the existing process.
On software updates, Clause 4 anticipates that vehicle manufacturers will want to ensure that their vehicle systems are as safe as possible for consumers. As my noble friend Lord Borwick said, we expect that most updates will be done automatically and will be the responsibility of manufacturers. This is something that manufacturers acknowledge. Vehicle safety standards, which include software, as I have mentioned before, are still being discussed at the UNECE level. The requirements for system updates form part of the international discussions on the standards that will ultimately form the basis of the type-approval process that the vehicles must pass before they are sold in the UK.
There will be robust standards in place before these vehicles arrive to market, which will include the updating of safety-critical software. I can reassure noble Lords that vehicles will have to meet these standards before they are made available on the market. I fully appreciate the noble Lords’ intention to ensure that automated vehicles’ software is up to date, so that they are functioning safely—but, as with our previous debate on standards, we do not think it is right to act unilaterally at this time.
All noble Lords, including myself, are in the same place on this. We expect that vehicles will not be deemed safe to use, and therefore will not be placed on the list and covered by insurance, unless the safety-critical software is in place. It is a complex issue; we still do not know exactly how the software is going to work. We see some good examples from Tesla and Apple, but this is part of extensive conversations at an international level, with manufacturers and other countries, to understand how best to deal with this.
Amendment 25, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, requires the insurer to pay out first and then recover from the liable party. I hope that I can say this in plain English. Subsections (3) and (4) of Clause 4 already work with Clause 2, where the insurer has a first-instance liability to pay the injured party. I believe that Clause 2 is clear on that, and where the liabilities of insurers are when the accident is caused by an automated vehicle. I think that the current wording fulfils the intention behind the noble Lord’s amendment.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, we all agree that in the future automated vehicles have the potential to improve personal transport arrangements as well as air quality, which is crucial given the dire state of the environment and its impact on health. Solving questions of how automated vehicles can be insured is essential and we welcome the fact that the Government are setting out how to do that. However, it is important to assess how measures work in practice, not only in legislation. It is particularly important that the Government should ensure that regulations are working as intended and should monitor unexpected impacts, which are always there, before attitudes and practices become entrenched and before automated vehicles become common on our roads.
Although the list in the amendment is not exhaustive, given the focus of Part 1 of the Bill it makes sense for a report to consider the impact that measures have on the insurance industry, on the cost of premiums for policyholders, on the uptake of automated vehicles and on disagreements between insurers and manufacturers on liability. This will be a fast-moving area and—who knows?—we may have to revisit areas of this Bill in the future as advances in technology take place and the advances impact on how these vehicles are insured.
It is important that Parliament is kept informed of the effectiveness and impact of the legislation to make sure that we keep it up to date as new technologies in this area are developed. I beg to move.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, the Government are taking a step-by-step approach to our regulatory programme in relation to automated vehicles. Where the evidence base exists for regulatory change, we will act so that the UK public and businesses can benefit from innovative new vehicle technologies as soon as they arrive to market. As we noted when we initially consulted with the public and industry in 2016, each of these steps, taken through either primary legislation, secondary legislation or guidance, will be subject to a process of scrutiny and ongoing review.
On the automated vehicle insurance measures, as part of this regulatory programme we will continue to engage with the DVLA and other motoring agencies, the insurance industry and other relevant stakeholders to make sure that the system works effectively as the new insurance framework is implemented, and that we are still meeting our intended policy objectives to provide a compulsory insurance framework for automated vehicles.
As noble Lords will be aware, we have produced a detailed impact assessment looking at the potential direct economic effect on the insurance industry from introducing these measures. As my noble friend has just explained, the Centre for Connected and Autonomous Vehicles has asked the Law Commission to undertake a far-reaching review of the UK’s legal framework for automated vehicles. This may consider a wide variety of areas of law, including the liability and the insurance provisions set out in the Bill.
Unlike with many other amendments we have discussed today, I will not be arguing that the Bill is the wrong place for this amendment. However, it asks for a report by September 2019, which would be too early to consider whether the scheme is effective. It is not anticipated that there will be many—or even any—vehicles to which the insurance provisions apply. However, I understand and share the noble Lord’s intention to ensure that the system that is in place is working effectively, and ahead of Report I will consider whether there is anything further we can do in this area. With that in mind, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment at this stage.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response. There is a wider point, which perhaps I should have made before—though I think she is erring towards agreeing with me—which is that it seems possible that the first fully automated vehicles could be ferrying children to school in, say, five, 10 or 15 years’ time, without this issue coming back to this House at all, by virtue of the wide powers that many of the road traffic and other Acts have to do things by order, for example. Therefore I hope that we will be able to find some sort of reporting compromise that ensures that this House and, ideally, Parliament in general are kept informed of developments in this exciting and innovative area. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Airports: Passenger Assistance
Baroness Sugg Excerpts(6 years ago)
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Lord Blunkett (Lab)
My Lords, I beg to move the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and draw attention to my declaration in the register of interests.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, we want to see an improvement in service for all passengers requiring assistance when travelling through our airports. We have seen progress in recent years through the introduction of the CAA annual reporting, but there is certainly more we can do in this area. Through the ongoing work on our aviation strategy, the department and the CAA will work with campaign groups, airports, airlines and ground handlers to produce and implement new and innovative policy proposals.
Lord Blunkett
My Lords, many in this House will be familiar with the experience that the renowned security correspondent of the BBC, Frank Gardner, had at Heathrow recently. I know that the Minister is both committed and energetic on this issue, so can she reassure us that in the event of Britain leaving the EU—in the event—we will be totally committed to maintaining and improving on EU Regulation 1107 and to ensuring that we get everyone to co-operate? It is only through partnership between airports, airlines and service providers that we can put people on equal terms and overcome the indignity and lack of independence that Frank Gardner experienced.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for raising this issue and I pay tribute to the work he has done over many years in this area. On his point about regulations following our exit from the European Union, we will absolutely not fall below current standards set by EU regulations—in this case Regulations 1107 and 261, which will be retained in UK law. I absolutely affirm my commitment to addressing the issues in this area. In our Next Steps document for our aviation policy, published last month, we have committed to make significant improvements, such as helping to raise awareness of the assistance already provided at airports, reviewing the assistance performance standards for airports and airlines and introducing an accredited nationwide accessibility training scheme in an effort to improve the assistance already offered.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My Lords, I am no relation to the Frank Gardner just referred to, but when I travel, particularly internationally, I have to have a wheelchair or some way of being treated and cared for. Sure enough, everywhere overseas they arrive with a wheelchair and someone to push it. At Heathrow it is very deceptive and very wrong that people arriving and needing help are held up a long time. They arrive with an electric vehicle that takes eight people, the eight people get in and are very impressed by how quickly they have been received. They are then taken to what I call a “dumping area” and you all sit there indefinitely until they can find enough people with wheelchairs to take you on. By the time you get down to the arrivals hall all your luggage has long been cleared and they have to find out where it has been moved to. It is quite hopeless, and although I have taken this issue up in the past with Heathrow Airport, nothing happens. It needs proper action to bring us up to international standards in this respect.
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I am sorry to hear of the experiences of my noble friend. I am afraid that it is another example of some of the terrible experiences I have heard about. Heathrow, in particular, faces some unique challenges, with the high volume of passengers and the very size of the airport: each terminal exceeds in scale other airports in their entirety. Of course, more work must be done to ensure that our biggest airport is accessible to all and that everybody receives a good level of customer service. Heathrow does have an improvement action plan in place to provide a continuous assistance service at the airport and is looking to reduce waiting times. It is also investing in comprehensive disability training schemes. Terminal 5 and British Airways have embarked on a programme aimed at ensuring that a high-quality service is provided for everybody with a disability or who needs assistance. Last year Heathrow set up the Heathrow Access Advisory Group, which has made good progress, the latest initiative being the adoption of a new process around personal wheelchairs last month. This will see all mobility equipment returned to the gate by default—an opt-out rather than an opt-in process—which we hope will address the issue that Mr Gardner faced.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, I am glad that the Minister raised the issue of wheelchairs being returned to planes because, although it is in the guidance on the CAA website, it is not specified by Heathrow or by most other UK airports—it seems that there is a gap between the CAA guidance and what is actually happening. Part of the problem is that under their KPIs airports are held to account solely for the journey either to or from the plane, and passengers are passed from pillar to post and from staff member to staff member, often untrained. I myself was stuck in a baggage hall at 6 am for an hour because there was no one there to meet me with my chair. What can the Minister do, first, to ensure that all airport authorities come together and work to the CAA’s guidance and, secondly, to encourage new proposals like the Neatebox that is being trialled at Edinburgh, which helps disabled passengers to find assistance very quickly?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. She is quite right to point out that the CAA’s guidance specifies 20 minutes for wheelchairs to be returned. However, that is often not the case, as in Mr Gardner’s experience. That is something we are working with airports on. The CAA is also looking to extend its guidance, which is focused solely on airports at the moment. Of course, we need to work collaboratively with operators across every part of the journey—because we need this to be as seamless as possible—including airlines, airport service providers and handling agents. With the extension of the CAA’s guidance to deal with airlines as well we will definitely see improvements in that area.
The Neatebox is an excellent and innovative idea for providing more information to passengers with a disability. I understand that it is being trialled at Edinburgh Airport and I look forward to seeing the results.
Baroness Tonge (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I have experienced this issue with a disabled friend, so I thoroughly endorse what has been said. Does the Minister not agree that Heathrow not being able to cope with what it has now is yet another good reason for not expanding it with a third runway?
Baroness Sugg
I am afraid I must disagree with the noble Baroness. I have already explained some of the measures that Heathrow is putting into place in order to improve its service, and I look forward to the debates in the coming months on its expansion.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, surely this is just a lot of good words. To fix this problem you do not need innovative solutions or great essays full of good words: you need resources. This is Heathrow penny pinching. What are the Government going to do to force Heathrow to put the right resources in?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, we highlighted accessibility as a key issue to address in our aviation strategy. I do think that there has been progress, but I absolutely agree that there is more to be done. Since becoming Aviation Minister I have held many meetings with campaign and disability groups, as well as airlines and airports, to discuss what steps we can take, and I will continue to do so. This is something I feel very strongly about. It is an area in which we can and will make real improvements, and I am confident that all passengers will see the positive outcomes of our work.