Nuclear Test Veterans: Support

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Watson of Wyre Forest]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what support they provide to nuclear test veterans.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, we are grateful to all service and civilian personnel who participated in the British nuclear testing programme and contributed to keeping our nation secure. That is why, as recognition, in November 2022 the Prime Minister announced the Nuclear Test Medal. We are also funding projects to celebrate, support and memorialise nuclear test veterans.

In addition to the existing range of veterans’ support available, the Government have instigated further benefits through the Veterans’ Strategy Action Plan, which outlines over 60 commitments to be delivered by 2028, including access to housing and healthcare, maximising veteran employability and recognising historic advantage. Over two-thirds of these commitments have already been met.

[Lord Watson of Wyre Forest (Lab)]

I am grateful for that Answer, but the MoD was ruled to have acted unlawfully when it withheld Terry Gledhill’s medical records. That was part of 4,000 papers maintained as state secrets by the AWE at Aldermaston, which were then declassified and described by a Minister as being innocuous but which are now at risk of being locked away again after a security review by the warhead director at the MoD. I say to the Minister that there is a big, important reason why this matter has to be put right. We are about to invest £20 billion in the new warhead programme, and those of us who publicly defend the independent nuclear deterrent, on all sides of this House, will play their part in maintaining public trust and support for that project. Does the Minister agree that our job will be made much easier if all test veteran records are made public, apologies are made where appropriate, and compensation is delivered where necessary? We do not have a Bikini island this time; we have to defend public trust in the ethics of the new programme.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, no medical records have been withheld from veterans before, during or after participation. Records can be accessed via subject access request under the Data Protection Act. The Atomic Weapons Establishment does not hold individual medical records. They are either held by the MoD or transferred to the National Archives.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister know that some 1,500 of the test veterans who are still alive, of the 20,000 who were affected, have attended meetings here in Parliament and have claimed that, because some records were incomplete, those records have not been made available to test veterans? Will he look at that specific issue? Also, given that sites such as Maralinga in Australia, where some of the tests took place, are still regarded as uninhabitable, does he not agree that this demonstrates that people who were serving Crown and country were placed in harm’s way?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

Yes, my Lords, I agree with that. It has been widely recognised. A lot of the data that is held is extremely historic and, at times, what the issue really is can get blurred. As I have indicated in previous Written Answers on this subject, my right honourable friend the Minister for Defence People and Families visited the Atomic Weapons Establishment in March to personally review these 150 documents that are being referred to and which allegedly relate to test veterans. He is committed to update the other place in due course—actually, in pretty short order. I do not wish to pre-empt that Statement.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, the decision to award a Nuclear Test Medal is very welcome. The MoD endeavoured last year in advance of Remembrance Day to issue as many of these medals as possible. How many of these medals have now been issued?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I can. Just over 22,000 individuals come into scope. We have received 4,800 applications. Of those, 4,400 have been approved. An assessment is going on because of some of the complications I mentioned earlier. As of today, we have dispatched 4,345—2,569 to veterans and 1,776 to next of kin. Before Remembrance Day, which noble Lords may remember was one of the issues last year, we succeeded in dispatching 1,220. Priorities since then have been for the over-90s and those with a terminal disease.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, in responding to the Question, the noble Earl talked about the commitments to the veterans of the tests but said that the information, if it is kept at all, is now very old—which is true, but so are the veterans. Does His Majesty’s Government really believe that a medal, or the no-fault compensation scheme under the War Pensions Scheme, is sufficient for those who were subject to tests and to bloods being taken, potentially without agreement? Is His Majesty’s Government really doing enough for the veterans who are still alive and their families, many of whom, unlike with other issues associated with war, will have been affected by miscarriage or birth abnormalities?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the opportunities for nuclear test veterans are the same as for all veterans who are now in civilian life. All veterans can seek support from the Veterans Welfare Service, which is MoD-managed. The nuclear test veterans who believe that they have suffered ill health due to service can apply for no-fault compensation under the War Pensions Scheme. There is also the war disablement pension, which is available to all veterans who served prior to 2005, including all nuclear test veterans.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the time taken and the reluctance to give compensation in this case make it similar to the case of infected blood, and we see it again with the sub-postmasters. Has the Minister come around to the view that I am coming around to—that, irrespective of who is in government, there is a tendency in Whitehall to refuse compensation to people who deserve it? Is that not something we all ought to do something about?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the broad issue of compensation is very thorny. Obviously, compensation needs to be evidence-based and appropriate and it needs to follow the correct tracks. I do not believe that Governments, of whatever hue, try to slow down compensation. I think what they try to do is get it right.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, is this not an example of the malaise that we have in the handling of veterans? Veterans are unhappy and we are in a bad situation with both recruitment and retention. Over 76% of veterans are dissatisfied with the Armed Forces compensation scheme and 500 veteran households are declared homeless every three months. Establishing an independent Armed Forces commissioner as a voice to improve service life and fully incorporating the Armed Forces covenant into law would give veterans the legal support that they deserve. Would the Minister support these measures?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, all Governments take the issues of veterans extremely seriously. As I said earlier, the Veterans’ Strategy Action Plan is a further attempt to offer veterans additional support as they leave our Armed Forces, on employment, housing and all sorts of issues that are peculiar to veterans having served our country. It is only right and proper that we should continue to press those as hard as we possibly can.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, following the question from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is it not the case that compassion should be the central consideration in the Government’s work to provide compensation? I hesitate to suggest it, but a little more compassion would be no bad thing.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree.

UK Armed Forces in Middle East

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Wednesday 1st May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my entry in the register of interests, specifically my association with the Royal Navy.

Our service personnel are currently deployed in multiple theatres across the Middle East, reinforcing regional stability, protecting freedom of navigation in the Red Sea, fulfilling our ongoing commitments under Op Shader and of course assisting vital humanitarian efforts in Gaza. As ever, we are grateful for their service, their dedication and the sacrifices that they make daily to protect British national interests.

I ask the Minister to update your Lordships’ House on the new role of the RFA “Cardigan Bay” in helping to build the temporary pier on the Gaza Strip. How long is this deployment and what specific role will the UK play in the pier’s construction? As always, the Royal Fleet Auxiliary is on the front line supporting UK operations. My right honourable friend John Healey asked in the other place about the RFA, but the Minister there was seemingly unable to assist, so can the noble Earl confirm that the RFA is protected from his new Civil Service cuts? Can he provide an update on the current state of the industrial dispute with the RFA, given its important role?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, there were about six different questions there. First, I confirm that the UK Armed Forces operate under a number of international coalitions in the Middle East and have done so for some time. They include the Jordanian-led international effort for humanitarian aid into Gaza, the RAF drops, the support that we are giving in building the pier, the global coalition against Daesh, Operation Shader and Operation Prosperity Guardian. We do all that to protect life, uphold the rules-based international order and secure UK interests against malign forces in the region. “Cardigan Bay” is providing living support for the American soldiers and sailors who are building the bridge. It lies off Gaza now in international waters, and will be there for as long as it takes.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, can the noble Earl tell the House, first, whether the Government would give a parliamentary vote if there were to be boots on the ground? Secondly, what conversations have His Majesty’s Government had with the Israeli Government about looking for appropriate ways of getting aid into Gaza and ensuring that those delivering that aid are protected, be they UNRWA or other charitable organisations?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot remember the first question, but on the question of talking with the Israeli Government, we continue to press them on international aid to open up as many opportunities as we can to get a considerable amount of aid in. That includes via Ashdod, Erez and this new floating pontoon. It is extremely important to get as much aid in as we possibly can.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend update us on the situation regarding the malign influence of Iran, which has of course recently attacked Israel? It has certainly armed Hamas in the past, whatever its situation now, and is almost certainly controlling Hezbollah. Can he please update us on that?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the diplomatic situation with Iran is that we are using every possible effort to quieten down what could have become an extremely dangerous situation. So far, that diplomacy does seem to be working.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, would the Minister and the Opposition Front Bench recognise that neither of them referred, in their replies, to the role of the sovereign base areas in Cyprus? Does he not agree that the bases we have there have played an extremely positive role in recent times, and indeed in more previous times than that? Would he offer some thanks to those who are manning those bases?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I certainly will and would. We are part of international coalitions and there is a certain level of sensitivity around precisely which states are involved in what. But I can assure the House, in all respects, that the level of support from various areas could not be higher.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, away from the valuable operations of the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force in the region, it is easy to overlook the regular tempo of land exercises with our allies there, which not only build strategic capabilities over time but act as a deterrent to our foes in the region. Despite the large increase in pending announced last week, there remain in-year saving challenges. These exercises, being uncommitted spend, are the first things to be cut. I simply ask my noble friend to look carefully at ensuring that, away from operations, these exercises continue.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My noble friend makes an extremely good point. The prioritisation of all the activities that we are engaged in through the UK Armed Forces is extremely important. To be ready to war-fight and win is absolutely paramount; to train to achieve that is critical.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the “Cardigan Bay” is of course one of our crucial Royal Fleet Auxiliaries. I refer to my noble friend’s question about the work that is going on about conditions of service. There is a very real risk of an impact on our Royal Fleet Auxiliaries because of this debate—and fight—going on about pay, conditions of service and the like. Can the Minister possibly tell us where we have got to in these negotiations? Is this going to impact not only there but on our amphibious group out in the Pacific and so on? These ships are so important.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree about the importance of these ships—what better example than “Cardigan Bay”, which is providing an absolutely vital role in supporting our allies to build this bridge? I will write to the noble Lord with specific detail; I think that is the best thing to do.

[Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (CB)]

My Lords, I refer to my registered interests in the Royal Navy. I encourage the Minister to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of HMS “Diamond”, particularly its recent contribution to continued freedom of the high seas in the Red Sea.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I could not pay greater tribute to our forces out there, whether on “Diamond”, “Lancaster” or “Cardigan Bay”. They are all providing absolutely critical support to an extremely important initiative.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, we should applaud the role of the RAF, with the recent contribution it made in the interception of Iranian drones launched against Israel. I ask my noble friend the Minister: was that under Operation Shader? If so, is the role of Shader now being expanded?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. It was indeed under Operation Shader, which has been in place since 2014. In fact, I answered a question about this the other day. The RAF has flown nearly 9,000 missions under Operation Shader and released more than 4,000 precision weapons, which gives noble Lords an idea of the scale and importance of ensuring that Daesh in Iraq and Syria is ultimately destroyed. There is no intention to increase the scope of that operation, but back in April it was the appropriate asset to use for that particular sortie.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, I would like to take up the point in the question asked by the noble Baroness opposite and hopefully have further information. I had concerns about some of the news that came out at the weekend that, in the project taking place in Gaza, we could end up looking at deploying British troops to be involved in the delivery of lorries on to the land. I would have great concerns about British troops being put into that position. We would not want to look as though we are condoning any of the Hamas actions that took place on 7 October; humanitarian aid is another issue. Could my noble friend give us reassurance that British troops will not be deployed inappropriately in this matter?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I can give an absolute assurance that that report was pure speculation. That is exactly where the situation remains.

Defence Spending

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

I thank the noble Baroness; I am told that this is indeed page 20.

The percentage of GDP that is being looked at starts at 2.32% for 2024-25 and goes up, according to this, to 2.5%, in line with His Majesty’s Government’s commitment outlined yesterday, 24 April. But I note the words:

“Memo—UK GDP based on OBR’s latest forecasts”.


There is sometimes a little scepticism about OBR forecasts. While far be it from me to raise the sort of concerns and scepticism that a former Prime Minister might have raised about the OBR, can the Minister reassure the House that the forecasts for two, three, four and up to six years out are actually likely to be correct? It matters enormously to these commitments that the OBR predictions should be right, because the commitments being made now are vital.

The noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, asked why the announcement was this week. As something of a cynic, I wonder whether it was not simply part of the Prime Minister working his way up to a general election, because every day this week we seemed to have a new announcement, whether it was flights going to Rwanda or the commitments to defence. While on Rwanda we might disagree, on defending Britain we do not disagree at all that it is vital. In that sense, the Statement is welcome.

I have a few questions for the Minister. Clearly, the commitment is there to defence expenditure—it follows on from the commitment to improving defence procurement—but this is a relatively short timeframe of six years. In the context of global crises, which we see from authoritarian regimes—as His Majesty’s Government have suggested, Iran, Russia, North Korea and China all seem to work in consort in some arenas—do His Majesty’s Government think that this commitment, while in itself welcome, will deliver change sufficiently swiftly? How far are His Majesty’s Government looking not just to closer co-operation with our NATO allies as a collective—obviously, we are also committed to NATO—but to strengthening bilateral relations, for example with France, in addition to the commitments made in Germany two days ago?

Further, to what extent do His Majesty’s Government think that other regional patterns of co-operation, such as AUKUS, will help them to take the leading role in NATO, which has been stated is an ambition?

In the policy document, the Secretary of State reminds us that in his Lancaster House speech he noted that, clearly,

“the era of the peace dividend is over”.

That is obviously right. In terms of procurement and ensuring that we have the right industrial defence base, 2030 is actually very close. Does the Minister feel that this Statement goes far enough? Will he commit to coming regularly to the House to tell us how it can be delivered and, in particular, about the numbers of civil servants who might be still in post in the MoD? Are their numbers vulnerable alongside those of other civil servants to pay for this deal?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, this is indeed a very historic document, and I am extremely grateful for the support that we have received from all sides of the House, as well as outside it. Noble Lords will be well aware of my views on defence spending—they should be by now, anyway—so I am delighted to follow the commitments made by the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State in the other place that we will now reach the 2.5% of GDP that we have long talked about by 2030.

The headline figure throughout, where I appreciate noble Lords want to see more detail, and quite rightly so, is the £75 billion spent between now and then. Over the next six years, this additional funding to the budget will take us to the 2.5% of GDP, which at that point will work out at £87 billion in defence spending by 2030.

If your Lordships will allow me to get into the weeds for a moment, on page 20 of the pledge document—I promise the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that there is a page 20 in this document—they will see how we intend to reach this trajectory. It is a flat line from now—it does not tip up at the end. They will also see how the NATO qualifying defence spend matches up against the core defence budget, as footnote 2 explains. To be clear, this is the same metric used across the NATO alliance. The figures used are also based on the OBR March 2024 GDP forecasts, as is standard practice, and cash totals will be confirmed at the relevant spending reviews as time progresses.

In short, this increase to 2.5% will be funded in full through savings, reallocation of resources, more efficient outputs, ruthlessly pursuing waste and delay—of which we know there has been a lot—and projected economic growth, and driving productivity throughout the MoD without any increase in borrowing or debt.

We will better invest in our relationship with industry—a critical point—in including £10 billion over the next 10 years on a new munitions strategy. In addition, through the integrated procurement model we will radically reform and modernise our Armed Forces following the Haythornthwaite review, and we will capitalise on our existing research and innovation expertise through the new defence innovation agency—the DIA.

What is more, this is in addition to the further substantial package of support also announced this week, our largest yet to our allies in Ukraine—many thanks to noble Lords for the continuing support on that. There will be some £500 million of support, as well as these 60 boats, including raiding craft, 1,600 strike and air defence missiles and more Storm Shadows, a mixture of 400 protected, armoured and all-terrain vehicles, and nearly 4 million additional rounds of small-arms ammunition.

We can all agree that this is significant news and, most importantly, the 2.5% must be spent wisely. As the Prime Minister stated in Poland earlier this week, we did not choose this moment, but it falls to us to meet it. Finally, before answering the questions, I will say that in the heightened area of instability that we now face, our first duty in the Ministry of Defence is to the national security and defence of our nation at any cost.

I will address some of the specific issues. On the question of Ukraine, we have now raised the contribution this year to £3 billion and that level will continue. As to why this was not covered in the Budget, I say that there was an enormous amount of negotiation going on at the time, and this is in the relatively recent past. We were putting the plan together, but it just was not ready. If you look at the situation now, the economic plan is starting to work properly; inflation is down from over 11% to 3.2%. We have a security environment that is continuing to deteriorate, and that has given us an opportunity to set the 2.5% target.

The Chancellor made a statement that he wants to return the numbers in the Civil Service, across government, to where they were before the pandemic struck, and the Ministry of Defence will be a beneficiary of that. There is no suggestion of a cliff edge—the cuts will take place in a gradual process over three years. The turn and vacancy level is quite perceivable within that period, and although there is not a recruitment ban there is a 2-for-1 in place at the MoD.

On the size of the forces, capability is as important as much as anything else. We should not hark back to the size of the Army 200 years ago; things were quite different then, although they were not that different 50 years ago. We have learned an enormous amount with the issue in Ukraine, and that is why the DIA is being set up. That hopes to achieve a grouping together of all existing R&D bodies into a single responsible and empowered organisation, particularly with the enormous and remarkable strength this country has in DSTL, and to scale up R&D, drive cutting-edge defence technology in high-tech stuff such as DragonFire and hypersonic missiles, and low-cost, high-impact stuff such as single-direction attack drones. I will mention DragonFire as an example—the Secretary of State did as well. My honourable friend the Minister for Procurement has used the new integrated procurement model to work on DragonFire, and has brought the gestation period forward five years. When we were talking about the new procurement model, there was an issue about how effective that would be. and on this exercise it proved very effective.

On NATO, which has never been more important than it is now, the commitment to move to 2.5% has been widely welcomed and accepted. It was not long ago when the idea of most NATO countries moving to 2% was quite a difficult ask. As Jens Stoltenberg said, the UK is “leading by example” in moving to 2.5%. There is a hope and an expectation that that example will help to move other NATO countries in that direction, both bilaterally and as a defence alliance. That is certainly the intention and I understand that it has been very well received. In fact, I have just come from a meeting with some colleagues from the United States. They were extremely appreciative and absolutely understood where we were coming from, so that was very good indeed.

AUKUS and GCAP are absolutely fundamental to our international relationships. It depends how long I am here, but I certainly will commit to the House that I will come to keep everybody absolutely up to date, particularly about the size of the Civil Service within the MoD and all other matters relating to what is a very considerable ask on the British public.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I remind your Lordships’ House of my specific interest as a member of the executive committee of the Army Board. I welcome this announcement. It is a significant amount of money and I commend the Government. However, my noble friend will forgive me if I judge success not by financial input but by what capabilities this money will deliver and, crucially, when. Our Armed Forces have been hollowed out, principally by gifting to Ukraine, so can he reassure me that some of this money is not just for new capabilities but for replacing existing capabilities that have been gifted? Finally, if there is one enemy in all this it is the Treasury. In my humble experience, it is all very well having a commitment of money to defence, but unless we get prompt Treasury approvals on time all this capability will be delayed. Can my noble friend simply reassure me that appropriate conversations have been had with the Treasury?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that question. On the Treasury, the Chancellor has absolutely been involved throughout this entire conversation and is fully supportive, as is the Prime Minister, of exactly what we are trying to achieve. On gifting and the replenishment of munitions and stocks, everything that we have gifted, including in the announcement this week, is within its sell-by date but is no longer really necessary. Replacements are coming in of new, modern equipment. The Army is perfectly happy to gift this to the Ukrainian effort.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, I used to work for Peter Carrington and Denis Healey, two great Defence Secretaries. I have been trying to work out how they would have reacted to this Statement. They would certainly have welcomed the increase in defence spending. It is clearly necessary and they would have said so. I think they both would have said that it is not enough but that it is certainly to be welcomed.

Denis Healey certainly would have found it impossible to accept the construction of the £75 billion. Could the Minister confirm that £75 billion is reached only by making the rather ludicrous assumption that the baseline is flat in cash terms, with reductions in real terms in every year of the six-year period? That is the baseline on which one can build annual increments summing to £75 billion. Perhaps he could confirm that is the case. Denis Healey would never have tried such odd accounting.

Peter Carrington would have argued that it is unwise not to prepare the country for a certain amount of pain. The Government are trying to present necessary defence increases as painless. It might be better to admit that there will be a cost, either in taxation or in less money for domestic programmes. The defence of the realm is the first task of government.

It is also absurd, in the week in which President Biden and Speaker Johnson have come forward with a rather substantial programme of assistance to Ukraine, for our Defence Secretary to stand up and say that the NATO partners looked to each other for leadership and the UK Government stepped forward to provide the alliance with the decisive leadership demanded in this knife-edge moment and that, in the build-up to the NATO summit in Washington, he—Mr Shapps—would be doing all he could to get alliance members to follow our lead. This is absurd talk. We should speak softly and carry a big stick. The stick is slightly bigger—not big enough in my view—after this week’s announcement, but we must learn to avoid the bluster and bravado and speak more sensibly.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the financial detail is quite complicated and I think it is better if we write and explain how the figures are built up.

It is clearly an ask for the British public. The cake is finite, as I have said before, and defence needs more. It is not an inconsiderable amount of money that we are increasing the defence budget by, and there is a question of how much money you can spend over time. It is rather like building a house, in that you cannot spend it all at once; you have to build up. If you look at where the investment focus is within the next few years, you find that, first, it is on firing up the UK industrial base, including £10 billion for a new munitions strategy. That is extremely important. Secondly, it is on ensuring that our Armed Forces benefit from the very latest technology, through the DIA. Thirdly, it is on guaranteeing long-term support for Ukraine; if we do not do that, it is just going to become more and more expensive. As the Secretary-General said the other day, this is the cheapest time to defeat the Russians. Fourthly, it is on ensuring that expenditure is effective through radical procurement reform, which I have already covered.

[Lord Robertson of Port Ellen (Lab)]

My Lords, all of us will welcome any increase to defence expenditure at a time of maximum turmoil and trouble in the world. There is much in this Statement which is to be welcomed, not just the extra money but the aspects on resilience and the rest.

However, I turn the Minister’s attention back to what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said. These increases in defence expenditure matter only in terms of the capability that they will produce, and that depends very much on whether or not these figures are accurate and whether the contention that they are going to be fully funded is correct. Many of the economists and experts outside, having looked at the figures overnight, are questioning very deeply their veracity—not only the fact that the £75 billion championed here is based on an assumption about flat cash values of expenditure but the fact that there is a gap between the £4.5 billion a year the Government say they will spend and the £7 billion. How is it going to be produced? Mr Ben Zaranko of the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that what is proposed will not be fully funded. He said:

“It’s in the ballpark of full-throttle austerity”.


The Resolution Foundation says that the contention that it is fully funded is a “joke”. Since we are not laughing, and since these matters are of national and international importance, can the Minister now tell us precisely what is the veracity of the figures that have been produced?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I really appreciate the detail of that question. Of course, the importance of getting the figures right and where the money is coming from is critical to the success of the entire endeavour. The detail is such that I would rather write than try to answer the question now, but there is no doubt that the commitment to this level of expenditure has been made and will be delivered.

[Lord Taylor of Goss Moor (LD)]

My Lords, the commitments to Ukraine—both the short-term increased commitment and, perhaps even more importantly, the long-term commitment the Minister referred to—are immensely important today, because Russia must be defeated for the sake of all democracies globally. Right now, Ukrainians right across the country are experiencing ballistic missile attacks on energy and heating infrastructure, homes, hospitals and schools, which they do not have the systems to defend, and the increasing use of Russian air assets on the front line. This country is short of ballistic missiles and defence systems, so what will be done to improve that in the long run? More immediately, what can the UK do to join those pressing for the supply of Patriot and other systems capable of defeating these missiles? A number of European countries that are not able to supply them themselves have offered to fund the purchase of such systems. Is the UK supporting that work?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. Most of the conversations about the issues Ukraine is facing start with air defence missiles. It is not just Ukraine but other states that could be threatened by the Russian Federation. There is an enormous effort in the production of these missiles to try to provide what is necessary, not just in the short term, which is moving them around, but in the long term. It was extremely good news to see the United States pass through their commitment to Ukraine. Some of the missiles have already been delivered.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in 2021, the Government published the integrated review entitled Global Britain in a competitive age, which was refreshed in 2023. It was described as setting out the UK’s overarching national security and international strategy, which covers defence, security, resilience, diplomacy, development and trade, as well as elements of economic and science and technology policy. In making this spending announcement on defence, and operating within that systemic approach to security, did the Government give full consideration to the possible need to increase spending on diplomacy and issues such as the climate emergency? Has this all been considered systemically in the round when looking at the allocation of resources?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that exactly those conversations have taken place, and that is one of the reasons why it has perhaps taken slightly longer to get to this position than I and many others would have liked.

[Lord Ricketts (CB)]

My Lords, there is an intriguing sentence in the Statement: that we are now producing

“a new plan that for the first time brings together the civil and military planning for how we would respond to the most severe risks that our country faces”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/4/24; col. 939.]

I would have thought that the 1998 defence review by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, and the post-2010 strategic defence and security review tried to do that as well, but does that plan include co-operation with European partners? There are some impressive figures for defence industrial investment in the Statement, but it reads a little as if we are on our own in Europe in doing this. In fact, Germany is sharply increasing its defence spending and is providing more support to Ukraine than we are, and France is ramping up its defence industrial spending. In terms of resilience, is this not the moment to work more closely with our European partners and co-ordinate on the effect that will have on the scale and speed of developing the weapons and supplying them to Ukraine?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The answer is yes. The noble Lord is absolutely right: it is critically important that we work with our international allies, whether European or elsewhere, to ensure that what is developed is complementary, but that we are producing what is required rather than unnecessary stockpiles of weapons and munitions. That was also one of the points that our American colleagues brought out earlier this afternoon; they were very pleased indeed with the progress we have made so far.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, in introducing the Statement, the Defence Secretary said:

“we will remove 72,000 civil servants from the system, not because we do not think they are good people—fortunately, with low unemployment we know they will be gainfully employed elsewhere”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/4/24; col. 944.]

Can the Minister tell me whether there were any negotiations with the trade unions? Are we to believe that there are 72,000 civil servants doing nothing? If that is not the case, can the Minister tell us what services will be reduced, curtailed or ended altogether? I would like an assurance that there will be negotiations with the trade unions in the implementation of this policy. I do not oppose the policy, but I wonder about that bit of it.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the 72,000 figure comes from the Chancellor’s desire to move the size of the Civil Service back to the situation in 2019, before the Covid virus struck. The Civil Service was required to grow quite considerably to cope with that situation, which has now passed. It seems logical that we start to move, through a period of natural attrition—there is no suggestion of mass requirements—back to a position where the Civil Service is fit for service, lean and nimble.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, this is too little, too late, but it is still good news because we are actually spending some money on it. The support going to Ukraine is particularly good news. We must defeat and stop Putin in Ukraine, or else we will have to stop him in Europe, so it must be good news that we have done that.

I must say I have some concern about where this money will come from, but on the assumption we are getting it, I will go down into the weeds in one small area. The Royal Fleet Auxiliary is absolutely crucial to the Royal Navy. For example, one of its ships is doing the Gaza support; the littoral response group ships are both RFA ships; and “Proteus”, a new vessel looking at undersea cables, is an RFA ship. A lot of these ships are now stuck in harbour, and there is a real issue because the RFA has suffered real reductions in pay and conditions of service. I ask the Minister to go back to the MoD and ask, as one of the first little kick-starters of money, that this be looked at. Without the Royal Fleet Auxiliary being manned, the Royal Navy actually grinds to a halt. There are also other little things in the manpower arena across the Army and Air Force that will make a huge difference.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I could not agree more. As to the question of “too little, too late”, it is extremely welcome that we are where we are now. It is absolutely critical that NATO faces up to the Russian Federation and defeats Putin because, as the noble Lord rightly said, if we do not do it now, it will be Europe next, and that will cost an enormous amount more in both human and financial terms.

On the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, I entirely agree. Conversations are taking place. I was in the Black Sea in one of the littoral states last week, where they were talking about the two ships in Portsmouth that are now ready to make their way over and what a good move that is.

[Lord Mott (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement on which my noble friend is responding today. Many important questions have been raised today. Will my noble friend give us an update on, and perhaps not forget, the accommodation that our Armed Forces personnel live in, and make sure that their conditions are not forgotten and that the upgrades and improvements that are required are part of this plan?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, that is a very good point. Accommodation is critical in recruitment and retention. Within the plan, there is £4 billion expenditure over the next 10 years to upgrade and build new service accommodation. At the moment, 97% of what we have meets the Government’s decent homes standard, but we continue to work with suppliers to make sustained improvements on the existing portfolio of properties. It is a point extremely well made that we must make certain that not just accommodation but all service pay and conditions are at the highest level.

Artificial Intelligence in Weapon Systems Committee Report

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Friday 19th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to those present for their considered and, at times, heartfelt contributions to this debate. I am equally grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, for bringing this debate to the House and for his excellent opening remarks; and to the entire committee for its informative report on artificial intelligence in weapon systems, which was published at the end of last year and which the Government have considered and contributed to most seriously.

As many noble Lords will be aware, the Government published their formal response to the committee’s recommendations in February. They concurred with the committee’s advice, as a number of noble Lords pointed out, to proceed with caution in this domain. As we have heard today, all sides of this House appreciate that artificial intelligence will be transformative in many ways—a balance of risk and opportunity.

For defence, we can already start to see the influence of artificial intelligence in planning operations, in the analysis of vast quantities of data and imagery, in protecting our people, in the lethality of our weaponry and, crucially, in keeping both our Armed Forces and innocent civilians out of harm’s way.

Take the example of revolutionising the efficacy of CCTV, and surveillance more broadly, in removing the serious levels of risk in bomb or mine disposal, or in refining the pinpoint accuracy of a military strike specifically to avoid collateral damage, as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, identified. In this fast-evolving sector, as the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, also rightly pointed out, it is essential that our Armed Forces are able to embrace emerging advances, drive efficiencies and maintain a technological edge over our adversaries who, noble Lords can be sure, will be pursuing the opportunity with vigour.

The MoD has established the Defence AI Centre to spearhead this critical work, bringing together experts from its strategic command centre in Northwood, its Defence Equipment and Support body in Bristol, and its science and technology laboratories near Salisbury, alongside a broad range of industry and academia: a genuine government and private sector partnership of significant potential.

The MoD also has some 250 projects either already under way or imminently starting work, and has tripled investment in artificial intelligence-specific research over the last three years, reaching more than £54 million in the last financial year. It is £115 million directly over the last three years, to answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso.

AI is an enabling component, not a capability per se. It is contained within so many capabilities that, probably, the investment is nearer to about £400 million in activities outside raw research.

Evidently, the potential of artificial intelligence in defence will continue to raise myriad technical, ethical and legal questions and challenges. This Government will continue to work through these judiciously, with as much transparency and consultation as possible, within the obvious national security constraints. To guide its work and its use of artificial intelligence in any form, defence is governed by clear ethical and legal principles. In June 2022, defence published its defence AI strategy alongside our “Ambitious, safe, responsible” policy statement, which set out those principles. We were one of the first nations to publish our approach to AI transparently in this way.

To inform our development of appropriate policies and control frameworks, we are neither complacent nor blinkered. The MoD regularly engages with a wide range of experts and civil society representatives to understand different perspectives. Equally, it takes the views expressed in this House and the other place most seriously.

To categorically reassure noble Lords, the British Ministry of Defence will always have context-appropriate human involvement and, therefore, meaningful human control, responsibility and accountability. We know, however, that other nations have not made similar commitments and may seek to use these new technologies irresponsibly. In response to this, we are pushing and pursuing a two-pronged approach. First, the UK is working with its allies and international partners to develop and champion a set of norms and standards for responsible military AI, grounded in the core principles of international humanitarian law. Secondly, we are working to identify and attribute any dangerous use of military AI, therefore holding those irresponsible parties to account.

I realise that the question of how and whether to define autonomous weapons systems is extremely sensitive. The noble Lords, Lord Lisvane and Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, who is no longer in his place, have raised this matter. These systems are already governed by international humanitarian law so, unfortunately, defining them will not strengthen their lawful use. Indeed, it is foreseeable that, in international negotiations, those who wilfully disregard international law and norms could use a definition to constrain the capabilities and legitimate research of responsible nations. It is also for that reason that, after sincere and deep consideration, we do not support the committee’s call for a swift agreement of an effective international instrument on lethal autonomous weapons systems—that would be a gift to our adversaries. However, I must emphasise that this Government will work tirelessly with allies to provide global leadership on the responsible use of AI.

On the question of fully autonomous weapons, we have been clear that we do not possess fully autonomous weapons systems and have no intention of developing them. On the very serious issue of autonomous nuclear weapons, which is understandably a troubling thought, as identified by a number of noble Lords, specifically the noble Lords, Lord Lisvane and Lord Hamilton, we call on all other nuclear states to match our commitment to always maintaining human political control over nuclear capabilities.

We will continue to shape international discussions on norms and standards, remaining an active and influential participant in international dialogues to regulate autonomous weapons systems, particularly the UN group of governmental experts under the scope of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, which we believe is the most appropriate international forum to advance co-operation on these issues.

International compliance will continue to be paramount, as the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, brought attention to and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned. I will write in detail about the many questions that he asked about this specific point; I am afraid we just do not have the time now.

We believe the key safeguard over military AI is not a definition or document but, instead, ensuring human involvement throughout the life cycle. The noble Lords, Lord Lisvane and Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, rightly raised that issue. What that looks like in practice varies from system to system and on the environment in which they are deployed. That means every defence activity with an AI component must be subject to rigorous planning and control by suitably trained, qualified and experienced people to ensure that we meet our military objectives in full compliance with international humanitarian law, as well as all our other legal obligations.

This year we will publish governance, accountability and reporting mechanisms. We will build challenge into our processes and input from outside experts in the form of an independent ethics panel. The MoD accepts the committee’s recommendation to increase the transparency of that panel’s advice, and we have just published the minutes of all six previous advisory panel meetings on GOV.UK, alongside the panel’s membership and terms of reference. We are also re-examining the role and options for the ethics advisory panel to include the views of more external experts in sensitive cases.

The committee made a number of recommendations around expertise, training, recruitment and pay, and quite rightly so. The MoD offers some unique opportunities for people interested in national and international security, but we are far from taking this for granted. We have accepted recommendations for the Haythornthwaite review, which will be familiar to many in the House and the other place, to enable any new joiners the option of careers that zigzag between regulars and reserves and, importantly, between the public and private sectors.

This is a highly attractive and highly competitive market, as outlined by a number of noble Lords, in the widest context. We are taking a range of additional steps to make defence AI an attractive and aspirational choice. We are looking at recruitment, retention and reward allowances, developing new ways to identify and incubate existing AI talent within our ranks, and developing new partnerships with private sector companies of whatever company size—particularly SMEs, because they are particularly strong in this area—to encourage more exchanges of expertise.

I also point out that my honourable friend the Minister for Defence Procurement is alive to this issue and has been driving substantial reform through the integrated procurement model, injecting agility and challenge into a system that I think everybody accepts needs considerable work. We will also shortly appoint a capability lead for AI talent and skills to drive this work forward in partnership with the frontline commands and our enabling organisations.

The committee also made a number of eminently sensible recommendations around testing of AI systems and operators. The MoD already has effective processes and procedures in place to ensure that new or novel military capabilities are safe and secure and operate as intended. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, illustrated, trial and risk appetite is an important aspect of consideration. We will ensure these are reviewed and updated as necessary as we integrate AI technologies into our armoury.

The Government are committed to providing as much transparency as possible around defence AI investment to aid public and parliamentary scrutiny. However, AI is always going to be an enabling component of much broader systems and programs. It can therefore be very difficult to isolate and quantify the cost of the AI element separate to the wider system. However, we are exploring solutions in the medium term that may give a better picture of specific and overall AI spending and investment across defence.

In conclusion, the department welcomes the overarching conclusions of the committee and the very wise advice to “proceed with caution”. We are determined to use AI to preserve the strategic edge, but we are equally committed to do so responsibly and in conformity with our values and obligations. Defence has a proven track record of integrating new technologies across the UK Armed Forces, and we should meet this one head-on. While we recognise that the adoption of AI will raise many new challenges, we believe that being open to challenge ourselves, including from Parliament, is an important part of the way forward.

Middle East: Deployment of British Armed Forces

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Wednesday 17th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Stansgate]

To ask His Majesty’s Government how they intend to consult Parliament on the deployment of British armed forces in the Middle East.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister and Government Ministers have consistently provided updates to Parliament through Written and Oral Statements, and through Oral and Topical Questions. However, publishing operational activity to Parliament in advance could undermine the effectiveness of an operation and potentially risk the lives of Armed Forces personnel involved. While the deployment of the Armed Forces is a prerogative power and the Government are under no legal obligation to seek parliamentary approval, we will continue to update the House as fully as appropriate.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. He is quite right that the Government have kept the House updated and given the Opposition the opportunity to continue to express their full support. Just over a decade ago, the then Foreign Secretary, now the noble Lord, Lord Hague of Richmond, speaking in the context of the Middle East, said that

“wherever possible, Parliament should have the opportunity to debate, in advance, the commitment of UK forces to military action overseas, unless there is an emergency where such action would not be appropriate”.

I think the whole House would agree that last Saturday night was such an exception.

With the news today that Israel has apparently decided to retaliate for that attack, the House will know that the situation is very serious. Does the Minister not agree that this would be a good time to clarify the role of Parliament in relation to the use of military force overseas? Does he think, on behalf of the Government, that some form of consultation should be enshrined in law? If so, will he bring forward a draft resolution for discussion and debate in both Houses?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Viscount makes a very good point, and it is something that I will talk to my colleagues about. I do not believe that the situation has changed. We have said before that when these irregular, single-point actions—which are limited, proportionate, necessary and legal—are required, we will continue to take action to protect lives, particularly in self-defence, as we did over the weekend. If that situation should change, we will certainly review the situation; we will keep the House fully involved.

[Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)]

My Lords, we are very fortunate to have the Foreign Secretary in our House. Indeed, it is probably the best decision that the Prime Minister has taken. It is an excellent idea that we have the Foreign Secretary here, and I hope this may be the norm in future. I hope the Labour Benches are focusing on this.

In a more serious vein, the Middle East situation is extremely serious. British forces have been involved. Surely we should now be having a major, full-day debate in this House on the Middle East, as a matter of urgency and priority, and regular debates as long as the situation continues.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, that is something for the parliamentary scheduling people. A major debate at this point would be very useful but may take up far too much parliamentary time.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister take this opportunity to thank and congratulate the RAF pilots who prevented needless loss of life in Israel over the weekend? Will he take the opportunity to reaffirm our country’s long-standing relationship with the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan—a relationship that goes back more than 100 years —which was brave and correct in defending its own territorial integrity over the weekend? That is exactly the kind of relationship that should in general be assumed, without needing to come back to Parliament for preauthorisation every time we stand by our old allies.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend. I also place on the record my admiration, and that of the Government, for all our Armed Forces in what must be an extremely difficult situation. Operation Shader, which has been in place since 2014, has been a remarkable success, and very active. I did not realise that since it was put in place, the RAF has flown 8,700 sorties and released 4,300 precision weapons.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister may recall me saying in the context of a previous Question put to the Leader that the Armed Forces place enormous importance on the support of the British public for the difficult and dangerous things that they do, not least as expressed by the will of Parliament. At the same time, they have to rely, crucially, upon the principles of security and surprise, on which their effectiveness and safety depend. Is it not difficult to see how a piece of legislation brought before Parliament could balance those difficult, competing issues?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble and gallant Lord makes a very good point, and it is certainly something that I will talk about. I could not agree with him more that operational security and force protection are at the very heart of what we are trying to do here, and must never be compromised.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my registered interests, and specifically my association with the Royal Navy.

Our dedicated and professional service personnel are now deployed on several fronts in the Middle East, stabilising the region in the face of co-ordinated efforts by Iran and her proxies. Iran’s senseless aerial attack on Israel at the weekend undermined international airspace. Iran’s proxies in Yemen continue to undermine freedom of navigation in the Red Sea, and last week Iran seized the “MSC Aries” in the Strait of Hormuz, again threatening global maritime efforts. What additional capabilities are we planning to deploy to counter these threats?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness and most of the House are aware, we do not discuss these things in advance, for fairly obvious reasons. However, an enormous amount of diplomatic effort is being put into trying to calm matters and get a more stable situation out there. As I am sure people are aware, my noble friend the Foreign Secretary is out in Israel today, trying to ensure that any further escalation of what is potentially an extremely dangerous situation across the entire region is canned.

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

My Lords, perhaps it is time that we learned from experience. In recent years British and western forces have been involved in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, and none of them has turned out well. I pay tribute to the forces concerned—it was a question of the strategy and the political view that was taken—but we really need to be careful about this and not cause any more chaos in any more countries.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, there are some fundamental rights and justifications that we as a responsible military power need to be prepared to step up and protect. I believe that these decisions are not taken lightly; they are taken extremely seriously. An enormous amount of thought and activity goes into each decision to take action, and that level of thinking should continue.

[Lord Woodley (Lab)]

Will the Minister confirm that it was three British-supplied drones that killed three British aid workers last week in Gaza?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, we do not comment on comments like that.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, thanks to our armed services are all very well, but they are now being very much stretched. It would be good to hear something from the Government about increasing the defence budget rather than the taxes that can be lowered.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that most of the House is fully aware of where I sit on this. We have a finite amount of resource within this country, and it is a question of where that gets allocated. We are spending more this year on defence than we have ever spent before; it looks as if it is going to be about 2.3% or £55.6 billion. It would be fantastic to be able to buy more ships and planes and employ a whole lot more people, but the capability and ability of our Armed Forces protect this country extremely well.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the last time that tensions rose in the Middle East, which sadly ended up with fighting going on, we had deployed in the north Arabian Sea an aircraft carrier, two nuclear submarines and eight destroyers and frigates. Does the Minister believe that what we have deployed there now, even with allied forces as well, is capable of protecting the two major maritime choke points that are so important to the world’s and our economy, or does he believe that we should have more there? Of course, that relates directly to cost and expenditure.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord is right. We are part of a substantial international force within both the Gulf and the Red Sea. Together, there is a significant amount of power there, hopefully to deter any further aggression by malign influences.

LGBT Veterans: Financial Redress

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cashman]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when they expect to have implemented Lord Etherton’s recommendations on financial redress in the LGBT veterans independent review.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, defence has accepted the recommendation of a financial award, as proposed by the notable review from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and is working with experts across government to establish an appropriate scheme, acknowledging that the process is intricate. Defence is committed to maintaining the momentum of the review and honouring all commitments made in the Government’s response, published in December 2023. Work continues to deliver the financial scheme by the end of 2024, and I commit to updating the House on the design of the scheme before the Summer Recess.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. This country’s treatment of LGBT armed services personnel has indeed been shameful, and the longer it takes to implement the financial elements of the report from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, the worse it gets. The Government have had the report for a long time. They accepted it in July, but we still have no financial redress for these veterans, whose careers were ruined, whose employment prospects were damaged and whose service pensions and benefits were denied. Many are now in their senior years and living in hardship. Therefore, I ask the Government at the very least to commit to an operational date for the financial redress scheme and, if they cannot do that, to update the House, as the Minister has said, at least within three months of this Question.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I certainly commit to updating the House on that latter point. I think all sides are vigorously agreed on this important issue: the treatment of LGBT serving personnel between 1967 and 2000 was wholly, wholly unacceptable. There is just no question about that. But the situation today is very different, and we are trying to address the wrongs of the past as rapidly and practically as we can. We are working across government to deliver all 49 recommendations as effectively, practically and expeditiously as possible.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, do the Government realise that there is grave anxiety among brave and unjustly treated LGBT veterans, because Ministers do not seem to have accepted in full the central recommendation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, that claims for financial compensation should be met unless the Government can

“disprove the evidence of the veteran making a claim”?

Since so many of the relevant records have been destroyed by the MoD, would it not be quite wrong to place the burden of proof on veterans? Is it not indefensible that severe financial hardship should be endured by veterans such as Mr Joe Ousalice, now suffering from terminal cancer, who was sacked simply because he was gay after giving nearly 18 years loyal service to the Navy?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, nobody can do anything other than agree with my noble friend. The progress we are making is as we set out after we received the review and considered it in December. Since that time, 26 of the 49 recommendations are now complete, eight remain to be completed by the Ministry of Defence, 12 remain to be completed by the NHS and three remain to be completed by the Office for Veterans’ Affairs, which is all about the very important memorial issue. The door has opened to the extremely important webpage “LGBT veterans: support and next steps” on GOV.UK—I will repeat this as often as I can. We have now had over 2,000 contacts, which have so far resulted in 415 applications to date for restorative measures, including financial measures.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, there is something of a pattern here. When His Majesty’s Government pledged to make recompense to the war widows, there was an assumption that something would happen, but we heard a few weeks ago that some of the war widows were no longer eligible for the money they thought they were going to receive. We are now hearing that His Majesty’s Government are spending time creating a scheme for LGBT veterans. That is clearly welcome, but, as we have heard from both sides of the Chamber, there is an urgency about this, because some of the veterans have terminal illnesses. They and their families need to know that they are going to be recompensed sooner rather than later. Can His Majesty’s Government make a commitment to come back not just with another Statement but with the scheme that is needed?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am fully aware of the war widows issue and we are addressing that at the same time. It is very important that all these things get finished off as quickly as we possibly can. As far as the content is concerned, I have given a commitment that I will return before the Summer Recess. That will not be another Statement; it will contain what the process is going to be.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I am happy to pay tribute to the Minister for the commitments he has made openly, both to the Question we are discussing and to the modes by which he will deliver further progress on this issue. He will have noticed, in the way the Question was formed, that my noble friend Lord Cashman has used the future perfect of the verb. In other words, will it be enough to hear an update on what is happening, or do we all long for the day when we know what has happened?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, we come back to grammar. We are all on the same page on this. Everybody is in full agreement, but we have to make certain that it is done fairly, that everybody who has the right opportunity to apply gets that opportunity, and that the compensation and other restorative measures are available to everybody concerned at the appropriate time.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I remind your Lordships’ House of my interest as a serving member of the Armed Forces. It is imperative that our Armed Forces are representative of the society they seek to protect. While there has been significant progress in recent years when it comes to the recruitment of women and ethnic minorities into the Armed Forces, much work still needs to be done. The Royal Air Force has been an exemplar in this area. So can my noble friend simply reassure your Lordships’ House that this remains a priority for His Majesty’s Government?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I can do no more than assure the House that it is indeed an absolute priority for the Government.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind your Lordships’ House of my registered interests, specifically my roles with the Royal Navy. I also put on record our thanks to my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, and to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for everything they have done to keep this issue on our agenda.

Fighting With Pride has done an extraordinary job of raising the horrendous experiences of LGBT+ veterans who served prior to 2000, and I thank the organisation for its service. It is the least that we owe it, and the veterans it serves, to enact every recommendation in the review of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, especially recommendation 28. Can the Minister update us on whether the planned financial redress will be a blanket amount per affected veteran, or whether it will—as requested by Fighting With Pride—be applied on a case-by-case basis?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, when it comes down to it, it must be on a case-by-case basis, because a lot of the information that we have available to check and re-check exactly who has been so badly dealt with is either missing or not particularly accurate. I say again that anybody who has any interest in this should apply on the “LGBT veterans: support and next steps” page on GOV.UK. So far, we have only had just over 400 applications, which is less than we thought. We really want to make certain that this is absolutely comprehensive and that everybody gets paid—and all the other restorative measures, which are just as important, are taken—as quickly and practically as possible.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, it is commendable that 26 recommendations have been adopted, but does the Minister agree that, without the financial element, it could be seen as window dressing? Difficult though it is, the Canadian Government turned around a much larger scheme with a much larger cohort within four months of receiving their report. I am mystified as to why the MoD cannot do the same.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the Canadian example is apposite but very different. The Canadian Government took a very clear administrative approach, which addressed a specific number of people, where they already had the information. We are not in that position, and it is important that we catch everybody who is likely to be affected, to make certain that justice and the right thing are done.

Single Source Contract (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[The Earl of Minto]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 22 January be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 19 March.

Motion agreed.

Single Source Contract (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[The Earl of Minto]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Single Source Contract (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, since their introduction through the Defence Reform Act 2014, the Single Source Contract Regulations have generally worked well and helped ensure that the prices paid for single source contracts both are reasonable and reflect good value for taxpayers’ money.

There are now some 575 contracts under the regime, with a total value of more than £90 billion. However, any set of regulations needs to adapt as the environment changes. In this case, we have found that the rules continue to work well for traditional defence procurement —for ships, submarines, aircraft and so on—but less well for sectors such as software. Moreover, the imperative to procure things more quickly means that we sometimes need to buy “off the shelf” items without running a competition, either because we need compatibility with existing systems or because we simply do not have any time.

To address this, we completed a detailed statutory review of the regime in 2022. It proposed a series of reforms in a Command Paper, Defence and Security Industrial Strategy: Reforms to the Single Source Contract Regulations, which was published for consultation in April 2022. The changes made by these amendment regulations are the next stage of implementing those reforms. They will deliver improvements to the regime in three key ways.

First, they will increase flexibility around where the regime can be used to ensure that more defence contracts can be single sourced without compromising assurance on value for money and fair prices. The amendment regulations introduce a number of alternative ways of pricing a single source defence contract, most significantly by allowing prices to be set with reference to market rates rather than always having to use the bottom-up default pricing formula. Another example is where existing UK or overseas laws constrain the way prices are set in a way that is inconsistent with the single source regime. In such circumstance, the amendments will allow the disapplication of the pricing formula to the minimum extent necessary to comply with the other law.

There are also cases where it would be useful to disapply the pricing formula to part of a contract, particularly where a contract comes under the regulations significantly after it was signed. This will avoid the need to re-open the pricing of work that may have been completed and paid for years in the past, and will increase suppliers’ willingness to bring long-running contracts under the regime. The amendments will allow the pricing formula to be applied only to new elements of the contract.

Secondly, the reforms will speed up and simplify the way the regulations work in practice. The legislation currently states that, for contracts that fall under the regulations, a single profit rate needs to be applied to the entirety of the contract when it is signed. For some larger single source contracts, it makes commercial sense to use different pricing types for different elements of the contract, meaning that a single profit rate might be too high or too low for some elements.

These amendment regulations will explicitly allow contracts to be split into different components where it makes sense to do so. They will also simplify the determination of an appropriate profit rate for a contract by reducing the number of steps in the profit rate calculation from six to four. The Single Source Regulations Office funding adjustment will be abolished, and the adjustment made to ensure that profit is earned on a contract only once will be moved from a profit calculation and be considered as part of the assessment of allowable costs for contracts.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate and say to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, in particular that this is a very complicated set of contracts and it took me some time and quite a bit of reading to understand them. But I do understand them and, with great respect, they are very effective indeed.

I think it is worth reiterating that the MoD’s preferred approach to procurement remains through open competition in the domestic and global market. But we are often limited to a single supplier to provide the capability that our Armed Forces need, particularly when we have to produce equipment quickly, as I said earlier, in the face of rapidly evolving threats.

The single source contract regulations are a fundamental part of defence procurement and are key to ensuring value for money. The statutory framework, which has been running for eight years now, sets out clear rules on pricing single source defence contracts that place the onus on suppliers to demonstrate that their costs are appropriate, attributable and reasonable, and defines the level of profit that can be applied. It is only right that we ensure that this framework continues to function effectively for all parties and adapts to changes in what we buy and how we buy it.

As mentioned at the opening of this debate, and by other noble Lords, these reforms are necessary. Adjustments to pricing methods, simplification of processes, correcting profit calculations and ensuring competitiveness with taxpayers’ money are all good reasons why we are here today.

We also need to preserve key industrial and technological capabilities within the UK for strategic reasons. The combination of these factors means that single source procurement amounts to around 50% of defence procurement spent on equipment and services—or some £13 billion per annum. Where there is a lack of competitive pressure, the MoD needs alternative ways of assuring value for money for the taxpayer, while ensuring that our suppliers are paid the fair returns required to preserve their long-term viability.

These amendment regulations, as the noble Baroness pointed out, which are primarily about pricing, will clearly require changes to reporting requirements. Those changes are in this statutory instrument. They should not be conflated with the broader changes to reporting requirements that will be made in the second set of amendment regulations in the autumn. Where it is not appropriate to set out the requirements in legislation, the SSRO is providing two sets of guidance. The first, which covers how suppliers in the MoD should meet the new pricing requirements, was made available to industry on 12 February—pretty recently. The second covers the changes to reporting contained in the statutory instrument, which includes detailed provisions on how contracts that use the new flexibilities must be reported on—including to Parliament.

I reassure noble Lords that we have consulted extensively with our suppliers on the policy underpinning these amendments—a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. I thank them for their contributions, which have led to some useful improvements. Overall, the amendments are designed to make the regulations easier and quicker to apply in practice—which must be the right thing to do.

To ease the initial implementation of the amendments, we will be flexible in the way we apply the reforms, particularly for the first contracts that will use them. For example, we are waiving many of the reporting requirements on componentised contracts—contracts that are cut up into different pieces—before the beginning of 2025. We will continue to work with those in industry to address their specific concerns.

The regulations currently apply only to single source defence contracts over £5 million, so their impact on SMEs is already limited. The Government are very keen not to impose unnecessary burdens on SMEs and, to this end, committed to reviewing that threshold in our response to the consultation on these amendment regulations, with a particular view to the impact on SMEs. We expect to put further regulations before Parliament in the next year.

On the question of pricing disputes, where there is a dispute about the price, either party can make a referral on the matter to the impartial Single Source Regulations Office for a legally binding decision.

On the question of whether we are trading value for money for pace, I reassure noble Lords that this is absolutely not the case. One of the key intents of these reforms is to provide the full weight of the regulatory protections under all circumstances. For example, allowing use of alternative pricing methods, such as commercial pricing, will support rapid procurement and provide protection on value for money.

If I have not answered any questions, I will write following this Committee. I thank noble Lords for their interest in the matter and I hope that the Committee will welcome these important and necessary amendment regulations. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Royal Navy: Climate Change Training

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord McColl of Dulwich]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to introduce training for the Royal Navy on climate change.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, the defence command plan refresh highlighted that defence is already being impacted by climate change and that we must face the reality of operating in a harsher climate and adapt accordingly, enhancing both our capabilities and our operational advantage. As part of the ongoing work to ensure that defence is resilient to the impact of climate change, we have introduced an awareness course on climate change and defence resilience for the Armed Forces and Ministry of Defence personnel. Currently there are no plans for that training to become mandatory.

[Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Will any training include the scientific record of how the climate has changed substantially without either human interference or causing human extinction? For example, during the Younger Dryas, about 12,000 years ago, the temperature fell dramatically and then rose again by as much as 10 degrees centigrade over a period of 50 years, while during the Middle Ages the temperature of the earth was higher than it is today. Abandoning attempts to prevent climate change would save the West from bankruptcy and release a large amount of money for defence and would even enable us to buy some frigates, which would please the noble Lord, Lord West.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the question of climate change and defence resilience is increasingly at the heart of what we are doing. The UK’s ability to understand the impact of climate change across defence and to adapt to it will be key to gaining strategic advantage.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall ask the Minister a question that is within his brief. The respected Institute for Economics and Peace has identified 27 countries with over 700 million people who already face catastrophic ecological threats but at the same time have the lowest levels of societal resilience. This is a recipe for conflict. The list includes countries where we are likely to deploy our Armed Forces and other humanitarian and emergency responders if requested so to do. The Minister and I have had cause to discuss the complications and consequences of the manifestation of an unanticipated risk that caused the accidental death of a member of our armed services deployed with our allies in a foreign jurisdiction in a post-conflict environment. With that in mind, since we have identified the countries where we will need them, should we not be working on appropriate and comprehensive status of forces agreements now in anticipation of this situation arising again?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord. However, I make two points. First, we will not and cannot compromise military capability solely for a sustainable solution. A key principle here is to safeguard the national defence, and that is paramount. Secondly, having said that, the UK is world-leading in this area, and we should be proud of our Armed Forces’ efforts to gain an edge on the threats and challenges posed by climate change. Each service is making significant improvements.

[Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (CB)]

My Lords, I refer to my entry in the register of interests as an honorary captain in the Royal Navy. While education is very important, even more important is capacity. HMS “Protector” is currently our only icebreaker. Last week it returned from Operation Austral in the Antarctic, where it was delivering supplies, carrying out hydrographic surveys and improving the safety of naval passage. I urge the Minister to build on that capacity and, as we train the Royal Navy, to draw on the experience that HMS “Protector” and the teams have gained over the last few years.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that extremely valid point. She is right that we need to learn from our experience. The Navy in particular is building in adaptability to all future platforms to ensure flexibility of fuel sources and all energy-efficient technologies wherever possible.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from the noble Baroness’s question, Lieutenant General Richard Nugee warned that global warming may affect the Royal Navy’s technical capabilities. He warned that rising sea temperatures might make it difficult for ships to cool their engines as they rely on cold seawater. It would be helpful if the Minister could provide an update on what assessment has been made by the Ministry of Defence of the impact that rising sea temperatures have had or could have on the technical efficacy of Royal Navy ships.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

Again, that is an extremely valid point. The MoD has just held its first climate security wargame across government, with international representation, and it was the MoD that led it. It is now assessing the outcomes and the lessons learned. Things such as rising sea temperatures and land temperatures are exactly the sort of area that was being considered. This and future wargames will inform all operational planning and current and future military capabilities to ensure that defence understands how capabilities will perform and operate in these changing environments; that is, both physical and security environments.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, climate change and its future impact will not only impede our ability to project force but will be a key driver of conflicts. Responding to climate breakdown disasters will become a regular reason for deployment. Does the Minister agree that arguing that the Royal Navy should not be prepared for climate change, as some have, is the modern equivalent of asking the Navy to work on the assumption that the earth is flat?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

That was a very nice allegory; I entirely agree. It is embedded in everything that all services, not just the Royal Navy, undertake. This is to ensure that what is inevitable—the climate change we are facing within the next relatively short period of time—is completely planned and catered for. As I said, that will give us a strategic advantage.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, I think we can all agree that the main purpose of the Question is to express our concerns about the health of our planet. However, I will extend that to say that I am concerned about the health—as the noble Lord, Lord West, will be pleased to know—of the Royal Navy. Will the Minister comment on His Majesty’s Government’s view of the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown’s statement yesterday that the economy should be put on a war footing, not just to grow the economy, but to grow the size of the defence budget from 2.5% to 3% in the interests of the Royal Navy, the Army and the Royal Air Force?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am increasingly thinking this is rather like Groundhog Day. I entirely agree, but the words “war footing” are slightly alarmist. There is no doubt that we are in a considerably more unstable environment and that we need to invest in industrial capacity to rebuild our stockpiles and re-equip all our forces. As I said the other day, we have 22 ships and submarines on order. We have 1,200 armoured vehicles currently on order. The RAF has its greatest lift capacity since the Second World War. The new Chinooks announced yesterday by the Secretary of State are extremely good news.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, grounded in the reality of 2024 and the climate emergency, Britain faces greatly increased risks and the reality of floods, droughts, fires, and heat affecting public health. The independent Climate Change Committee said yesterday that the third national adaptation programme was wholly inadequate. Given that there will be increasing demands for military aid for civilian authorities—known as MACA—what extra training and provision are happening within the Navy? With areas such as floods, the Navy should have the capacity to help.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, there are training programmes in all three forces, and the whole question of climate change and the changing environment we will have to face is deeply embedded in that. However, I confirm that we will not compromise on military capabilities solely for some form of sustainable solution. Our job in the Ministry of Defence is to ensure and safeguard the national defence.

Red Sea Telecommunication Cables

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Rawlings]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what support they are providing to help protect telecommunication cables in the Red Sea.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government take the security of the UK’s critical national infrastructure extremely seriously. We are working closely with private commercial interests to better understand the ongoing situation in the Red Sea and the resilience of telecoms networks. In recent months, Defence has acted decisively to protect international shipping in the Red Sea from the Houthi’s dangerous and illegal attacks, while continuing to apply diplomatic pressure.

[Baroness Rawlings (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer. The Red Sea is particularly vulnerable to attack because of its narrow and shallow proximity to Iran’s naval bases. Digital data is not in the cloud but depends 97% on seabed cables, and trillions get transferred yearly. Unlike ships, there are no flags, and they are not legally registered to any country. They are easily cut, causing major disruption in the world. Their location is freely available, with scope for plausible deniability. Does the Minister agree that there have been two very good reports, one by our Prime Minister in 2017 and one this year, stressing that China, with its undersea great wall, and Russia, with its sensors and unmanned vehicles, pose a severe threat? What is the UK’s strategic doctrine guiding our seabed policy? With Russia’s aggressive behaviour in the European Atlantic, what is the UK doing to support NATO’s defence system?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I will cut to the chase. We take all this extremely seriously, but it is important to contextualise the risk. The most likely cause by far of damage to subsea cables comes from accidental damage by industrial fishing and shipping and from underwater geological events. That is not to say that undersea cables are not prone to attack but it is extremely rare, and the commercial organisations can divert very quickly to alternative routes. Having said that, the Ministry of Defence has capabilities to monitor the seabed and has invested in a multi-role ocean surveillance programme which enhances our joint intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance capability. We work collegiately with allies, including NATO, to ensure that subsea infrastructure is resilient.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, one issue is clearly the cutting of cables. The other is cyberattacks on undersea cables. What is the MoD’s position on that, and do we have adequate resilience?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the question of resilience is one of ongoing technological change. However, through maritime domain awareness, which is a critical part of our maritime defence and is more specifically about the UK’s national waters rather than international waters, we collect an enormous amount of data to provide accurate information through surveillance software, coastal radars, aviation operations, space-based reconnaissance and government vessels. We get an enormous amount of data. Resilience is something which we consistently and constantly work on.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

The Minister has said that physical attacks on undersea infrastructure are very rare, and this is true at the moment, but it is unlikely to be true in a period of heightened tension and approaching conflict. It is not just the Red Sea. Our undersea connections for communications and power supplies, such as for gas and oil with Norway, are extensive and are growing ever greater in the Arctic. The Minister mentioned some of the capabilities that the UK military has to defend them, but they are very few and far between. Given the proliferation of this entirely new and very challenging threat, is Grant Shapps not absolutely right to call for an increase in the defence budget to 3% of GDP?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, nobody would be surprised to know that, yes, I think Grant Shapps is absolutely right.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord West, I ask: what naval assets do we have to protect the underwater cables?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, our naval assets are substantial. In fact, there are new support ships coming in that have the specific capability of underwater surveillance, so it is well on the way.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I will add some specifics to that. RFA “Proteus” is our multi-role oceanographic survey ship. Interestingly, its purchase was announced by Ben Wallace in November 2022 and it was in service less than one year later, which is really quite impressive. Will my noble friend say what the lessons of the speed of that procurement are and whether it is our intention to purchase any further vessels in future?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the speed of that acquisition is a fantastic example of how when procurement goes right, the agility and ability to acquire, equip and train crews to man these sorts of vehicles is comfortably within our capability. I do not know precisely when the next ship is due to come, and I will write to my noble friend with that information.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

What assessment have the Government made of the impacts of the cuts to these telecommunications cables on the telecommunications traffic from Asia to Europe or whatever? What are they going to do specifically to protect the workers needed to fix those cables?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point. On the whole, the cables themselves are not fixed but replaced. It is too dangerous and time-consuming to replace them because of the depth they are at and the danger from shipping. These are commercial decisions, and there are commercial sensitivities that we really cannot go into. Suffice it to say that we are acutely aware of what the risk might be in this area.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

For UK data security, the rather unglamorous solution is the proliferation of these cables, which to a degree is already naturally happening commercially. Where there is real vulnerability is at landing sites, where there is a concentration of these cables. We need to diversify those landing sites on this side of the Atlantic. Does the Minister agree? If so, what action are the Government taking to make sure that takes place?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that proliferation is an issue. As has been mentioned, the amount of data that travels through these cables is so significant that it requires all the protection it can get. The question of landing sites is very much part of the overall security resilience that we have been talking about. I can only imagine that they are going to become more and more important as we continue to suffer such an unstable global situation.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned the Houthis. What assessment have the Government made of the ability of the Houthis to replace the weapons they have used or those that have been destroyed by Royal Air Force and other allied attacks? It is important to know whether the Houthis will be able to continue the sorts of attacks that they started some months ago.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble and gallant Lord is right. The Government’s approach to addressing the issue of the Houthis has not really changed. It is all about increasing diplomatic engagement, ending the illegal flow of arms—I think we are all fully in support of that—cutting off the financial resources of the Houthis and helping the people of Yemen, who need support.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned diplomacy. Surely this brings into sharp focus the need for a robust and sustainable peace process. Obviously military action is part of what is needed, but can he give us an update on how the peace process is going at the moment and what role the UK is playing?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, that is not strictly within my brief. However, I am fully aware that my noble friend the Foreign Secretary and my noble friend Lord Ahmad have recently met the relevant parties, and the importance of the peace process could not be emphasised more.