Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Lord Moylan Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 17th November 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, in relation to the amendments in this group, first, I do believe that vaping is safer than smoking. All the evidence is that it is safer, but it is of course not risk-free. Indeed, that was the position under the previous Government: in October 2023 it was stated quite clearly that vaping is safer than smoking but it is not risk-free. If you do not smoke, do not vape.

I am all in favour of the promotion of vaping as a cessation tool for smoking; I think that is permitted under the Bill, and the Minister will no doubt cover that in response. I think we do need some way of promoting vaping, certainly for those who smoke, so that they can give it up. But if, as appears to be the case, everybody regards vaping as powerful for the cessation of smoking but for no other reason, because it is not risk-free, we should not be permitting advertising except in the narrow compass of the promotion of vaping as a cessation tool. For me, that would be the most sensible position, so I am not in favour of the amendments in this group.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I have my name to one of the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister, but I will start with the comment by my noble friend Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth that vaping is not risk-free. Well, what is risk-free? I shall go home in the car tonight, as it happens, since the noble Baroness inquired. Is that risk-free? Driving a motor car is certainly not risk-free. Nor is the Tube risk-free. That is why—I remember this from when I was deputy chairman—safety is our first priority. It is only by working terribly hard on safety that a railway actually comes close to being safe—but it is still not risk-free. Even on the escalators, one of our former colleagues, Lord Ribeiro—some noble Lords will remember him—blacked out, fell down, was taken to hospital and eventually retired from the House as a result of the injuries he sustained on the Tube network. So anything that is predicated on the idea that we in society can tolerate only something that is risk-free is frankly barmy. Life would come to an end if that were the case.

On these amendments, I would say: imagine you have a friend who breaks the habit of a lifetime, gives up smoking and adopts vaping. You want to send them a card to congratulate them on this move. We might all pass the card round the office and sign it and send them a card to congratulate them. There can be no such card. Anyone who in the course of business even designs such a card is committing an offence. Anyone who prints it is committing an offence. Any such card that says “Well done” could be held to look like it was promoting vaping: “Well done on giving up cigarettes and taking up vaping”. It could easily be found to be committing an offence. Anyone who publishes it is committing an offence. Anyone who sells it is committing an offence. That is for old-fashioned means of advertisement that are printed on paper. The measures are absolutely draconian. There is no commitment to consult. All I want to say is that the amendment in this group to which I put my name, tabled by my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister, is one that calls on the Government at least to consult.

To conclude, the Government are in a terrible state of mental confusion. They want the public to know about vapes. I want to repeat from my own experience something very similar to what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, said: it is not that easy to take up vaping. You need to know something about it; you need to know how the kit works and what it is you like. I was not quite as assiduous as her in reading the internet, going to the local vape shop and going to the convenience store as she did. I stumbled in a less systematic way through a similar sort of process until I found something that worked for me.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Just to clarify for the noble Lord, everything that I was speaking about on flavours was about pouches, not vapes.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

I beg the noble Baroness’s pardon, but I will still make my point about what she said about flavours. She was not describing the flavours; she does not know what the flavours are. She never bought them or consumed them as far as I imagine. She is talking about the descriptors—the rather lurid descriptors—just as my amendment is saying. That is what the Government should focus on, rather than flavours, which is what the Bill refers to. That is a digression back to an earlier group.

I simply want to say that the Government are in a state of tremendous confusion. They want us to have the information, but they do not want us to have too much information. What they have is a regime that is astonishingly oppressive and amazingly draconian, and which really ought not to stand as it does.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

My Lords, I will briefly follow my noble friend’s comments. We are in danger, with an understandable zealotry to extinguish all types of access to all types of tobacco-related products, of missing the reality of the point that there are millions of people in this country who could be occasional smokers and/or smokers who, like my noble friend and like the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, are keen to move from smoking cigarettes to other alternatives which are frankly better. It is often the perfect that becomes the enemy of the good; my recommendation is that the Government try to avoid that being the case.

The point here is that we should not have a zealotry-based attempt to ban something because an individual does not like it—a natural and understandable prejudice. The point must be about public health and giving people longer, happier lives and being practical about how to apply the laws to ensure that they function effectively. These amendments illustrate the opportunity for the Government to have a proper consultation to work out how they can ensure we do not end up, as my noble friend Lord Moylan might suggest, with an NHS-approved vape. It would be similar to those spectacles that you got on the NHS when I was a child; you could have either tortoiseshell or black. That strikes me as exactly what we will end up with in this scenario.

We should be proud of ourselves if we move to a regime where many people use vapes as a practical alternative to smoking and as a route to the ultimate cessation of smoking cigarettes. That should be the aim, and I am extremely concerned that, through the meticulousness and overfocus on a desire for perfection and completeness, we will end up causing the exact opposite effect and not increasing people’s health outcomes. Surely the Committee and the Minister would suggest that that should be the priority, and we need some common sense to prevail in this discussion.

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[Lord Moylan (Con)]

Since the noble Baroness has said so clearly that the purpose of the advertising ban is to prevent information being communicated to children and young people, and that that was a manifesto commitment, why does the ban have to be drawn so widely? Clause 119 has a list of defences that can be advanced for those who are accused of breaching the various preceding clauses on advertising, but none of them says that it is a different matter if the communication is with adults. Is this not drawn far too widely to be justified by her laudable ambition?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am glad that the noble Lord regards it as a laudable ambition. We will come to exemptions in the next group, and I look forward to doing so.

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[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 171 in my name, which contains some echoes of Amendment 167 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe; I thank my noble friend Lady Walmsley and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, for their support.

Noble Lords will not be surprised, I think, to hear that I fully support the restrictions on the marketing of vapes, nicotine pouches and other nicotine products. We urgently need to put an end to the relentless and irresponsible advertising to which we are currently subjected; the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, described this in our debate on the previous group. You cannot travel on the London Underground without seeing adverts for pouches saying things such as, “Hi, London. Your commute just got tastier”—not, noble Lords will note, “Hello, London smokers. Did you know that there are less harmful alternatives to smoking?”

This kind of indiscriminate marketing works to expose children to these products, which have been criticised by trading standards as mimicking sweets. As the Minister pointed out, awareness of nicotine pouches among under-18s has risen from 38% in 2024 to 43% in 2025. My amendment seeks to probe the Government on how they will ensure that public health authorities, NHS bodies and smoking cessation services can communicate effectively with smokers to make it clear that these products, while not risk-free, are significantly less harmful than smoking and can help smokers quit.

Such bodies have been impeded by the vaping industry. As we all know, vaping and addiction to nicotine is, in turn, leading to young people smoking, something that all of us, it seems, want to reduce. To put it bluntly, we have the wrong people using these products. Uptake among children, young people and never-smokers is far too high. Some 20% of 11 to 17 year-olds have tried vaping. Conversely, the people whom we most want to switch—they were addressed in our debate on the previous group: adult smokers—are not doing so. More than one-quarter of adults who currently smoke have never tried vaping, and misperceptions about harm are most acute among these smokers; the proportion who believe that vapes are as harmful or more harmful than cigarettes has increased. Had the vaping industry not promoted its wares to young people, we would not be in this situation.

This Bill currently makes provisions for public health bodies to promote these products but, of course, there are major challenges. The industry is responsible for the situation that we are in. I have heard from smoking cessation services that some online platforms make it practically impossible to promote vaping, even from bona fide health organisations; any post with a budget on these issues gets blocked and could have an impact on the Government’s messaging on this topic. Will the Minister explain how she feels this Bill will steer a proper course here, so that we put forward the public health benefits to which noble Lords referred in our debate on the previous group? In a similar way, different radio stations have different policies on vaping adverts, with some not allowing them at all even if it is clear that the public health messaging is from professional services. How will the Government steer through that?

As noble Lords indicated in our debate on the previous group, there clearly needs to be differentiation between commercial promotion and public health messaging if these vapes are to be used for what they were supposedly there to do in the first place. The problem here is that the vaping industry has not proved trustworthy, as children and young people are targeted. Many of the amendments here will simply allow more loopholes and are, therefore, likely to muddy the waters yet again.

We should not soften the approach that the Bill takes towards commercial companies. Just this year, we have seen heated tobacco advertising in supermarkets—Sainsbury’s and Morrisons—despite the Government telling them that this is currently illegal. If they are willing to flout the current law, why should we consider creating further loopholes for them to stretch in future? Once again, I will show an advert, which I have shown before, which is clearly not targeting smokers—if only it were. It says:

“Claim your free sample today”.


In tiny writing, it says that it is “not risk-free”. This is how loopholes have been exploited. That is what this Bill is seeking to address.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 168 and 170 in my name. At the end of the previous group, the Minister expressed a little gratified surprise that I thought the ambition of trying to end vaping by children was laudable. I am disappointed that she was surprised because I hoped that I had made it clear from the outset of my participation in this Bill that I entirely understand and support the Government’s wish to do everything possible to prevent the uptake of vaping and other nicotine products by children. My remarks were entirely about adults, as they will be on this group.

I do not wish to be impertinent, but I have a question for the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, who spoke of the vape industry as if it were a monolithic thing. There are several different characterisations of the vape industry, but the key one is that some of it is the work of respectable, accountable companies that are based in the UK and similar countries and conduct their affairs in one way, and some of it is the huge flood of vapes that have entered the market without proper regulation or control, I understand, although I do not know, very often produced by Chinese companies.

I ask the noble Baroness please to stop pointing at that piece of paper that nobody can actually see. Even if we were allowed to see it, we cannot read it at that distance.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

You can see the colour.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

It is blue. Is there something wicked about blue?

There is a distinction between the one and the other. The truth is that respectable companies will comply with the law, as they do with the law on smoking advertising, and disreputable ones will find ways of getting around it, as so many currently do.

I return to the two amendments in my name. Amendment 168 addresses Clause 119, which, as I mentioned in the previous group, contains certain defences that can be used by those charged with offences laid out in the previous clauses, such as distributing or designing advertising. I propose that an additional defence be added to it that,

“it is, when in relation to the advertising of vaping products or nicotine products, in a location in which it would be reasonable to expect that everyone present is aged 18”.

This is an attempt to try to fit in with what the Minister said earlier about the aim of the Bill, that we are meant to be trying to address young people, which I agree with, and help ensure that they are not induced into taking up vaping and other nicotine-based products.

Amendment 170 would create an exemption, not by amending Clause 119 but by adding a new clause, for a specialist vaping retailer making communications online in an age-verified environment. We have robust age verification now as a result of the Online Safety Act. There are many sites, I believe, which you are required to verify your age to access. That is what Ofcom has increasingly rolled out under the provisions of that Act. It is perfectly possible to have age-verified sites and to ensure that people can access them only if they can demonstrate they are above a certain age. That is what this is trying to do. It is trying to create some sort of balance for those adults—those above the age of 18—who wish to have access to information about vaping in a way that ensures it does not get to children. On the basis of what the noble Baroness has said is her purpose, I really cannot see how she should object to this. I hope that Amendment 170 and possibly even Amendment 168 might find favour with her.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendments 167 and 171 in the names of my noble friend Lord Kamall and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. They seek a carve-out from the ban on advertising for smoking cessation purposes.

In Part 6, which is about advertising, I cannot see any exemption for those services. It may be tucked away somewhere else in the Bill. My enquiries about this led me to believe that the qualification that you have to act in the course of business before the ban applies is an exemption for the health service, local government and any other public health agencies. I wonder whether that is good enough. Pharmacies are businesses, and many GP practices are limited companies. If I went into a pharmacy or to my medical centre and asked for help to give up smoking, it seems that they might commit an offence because they are a business. I think there is some merit in those two amendments, unless there is something somewhere else in the Bill that provides a specific exemption for smoking cessation services.

I have looked at the defence in Clause 199, “Advertising: defences”, and there is a defence, but it can be exercised only by somebody “in a relevant trade”—in other words, selling tobacco products, herbal smoking and the rest. If the only exemption is for business purposes, it seems to me that there are some grey areas. Surely there is a case for making it clear that we want these products to be promoted as smoking cessation services and people should not run the risk of getting caught by what I think is rather vague drafting of the Bill as it stands.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am most grateful to noble Lords for bringing forward this group of amendments, which reference Part 6 provisions, and for the contributions that have been made.

I will start with Amendments 161A and 161B, which are tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister. The current drafting of Clause 114 makes it an offence, when acting in the course of business, to design an advert that would promote a relevant product and be published in the UK. If an organisation knows or has reason to suspect their advert has a promotional purpose or effect and will be published in the UK, it has committed an offence by designing the advert.

I say to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, that the inclusion of “has reason to suspect” is deliberate, not least because it mirrors the approach taken in the existing Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act. This wording is designed to avoid loopholes and to ensure that those who are involved in the design of ads cannot evade responsibility by claiming ignorance where it is clear from the evidence that they had reason to suspect what they were designing an advert for. I hope the noble Earl will understand that we will, therefore, not seek to weaken existing legislation or allow any uncertainty that could be exploited.

I turn to Amendment 161B. I sympathise with the intention to align penalties across the UK but, of course, it is important that we respect Scotland has a separate criminal justice system. There are maximum penalties for this type of offence; they are fixed in line with the criminal justice system in each jurisdiction. I hope that that is helpful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe.

I turn to Amendment 172A, which was also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister. It seeks to restrict the scope of the offence of brand sharing. Brand sharing, also known as brand stretching, is a form of indirect advertising and should be seen as such, not least because it promotes the use of a service or product by putting its branding on other products or services or vice versa. The clause is drafted in a manner that already limits the offence that could be created under this power to cases where the purpose or effect is to promote a relevant product. Brand sharing, as defined in the Bill, would be unlikely to capture the types of case about which the noble Lord is concerned in his amendment; it is our view, therefore, that this amendment, as it stands, would introduce unnecessary complexity.

I turn to Amendment 168 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. The Bill as drafted takes decisive action to ban the advertising and sponsorship of all vapes and nicotine products, delivering on our clear manifesto commitment to stop vapes being advertised to children—something on which the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, spoke. The ban is essential to creating what we seek: a strong, consistent regulatory environment; and to provide clarity for businesses and enforcement bodies. I can say to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that guidance will be produced on advertising.

This Bill already includes defences for the limited circumstances in which advertising would be appropriate. As I have said in our debates on earlier groups, we are not considering any other exemptions for adult-only spaces, not least because of the risk of loopholes; these were referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. However, I take this opportunity to correct a statement that was made in the other place: this prohibition will apply to all advertisements for relevant products, not just those for specific products. In practice, this means that anyone acting in the course of business could commit an offence if they promote a relevant product, whether that is a generic product, a category of products or a specific branded product.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

I think the noble Baroness has addressed Amendment 170. Does she therefore not share the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, which was, as I understood it, that my Amendment 170 is unnecessary because there is nothing in the Bill that prohibits specialist vape retailers communicating on the internet? I would like clarity on that.