Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Lord Robathan Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Andrew Robathan)
I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this we may take Lords amendments 2 and 3.
Mr Robathan
Lords amendment 1 is the first of a number of amendments made in another place at the Government’s behest following extensive discussions there. They follow changes we made to the draft Bill after discussions in this House’s Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. I hope that it can therefore be said that we have listened to people during the passage of the Bill and that it has been improved as a consequence.
Lords amendment 1 limits any reduction in the size of the Northern Ireland Assembly to one Member for each constituency—from six to five. It also requires that any such reduction must have cross-community support in the Assembly. In the other place it was correctly pointed out that under the Bill’s previous provisions the larger parties in the Assembly could legislate to reduce its size by a substantial number. The House of Lords was of the view that there would be limited safeguards to prevent them so doing.
Many in Northern Ireland believe that, with 108 Members, the Assembly is too large, but it is not the Government’s intention that the Assembly should shrink dramatically. When it was established, the intention was that it should be a widely inclusive body, which is essential to the healthy functioning of the Northern Ireland settlement. The Government therefore tabled this amendment to ensure that the drafting of the Bill better reflects that policy. We hope that the Assembly will carefully reflect on the possibility of reducing its size at a time when spending in all parts of the public sector is under pressure.
We are, of course, leaving it to the Assembly to decide whether to reduce its size, and the amendment confines any reduction to one Member per constituency. If the Assembly decides to take that up, smaller parties and minority voices will still be well represented. I trust that the House will agree that these are welcome amendments.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
My colleagues and I are comfortable with Lords amendments 1 to 3, which we think are sensible, so we will not oppose them. Any reduction in the size of the Northern Ireland Assembly should quite rightly be a decision for that Assembly. As an MP who no longer sits in the Assembly, like some of my Northern Ireland colleagues sitting behind me, I agree that any reduction in its size should be voted on by the Assembly, rather than imposed from here.
Although my party agrees that there is a case for reducing the number of Members of the Legislative Assembly at some stage, any discussion of that must take into account the sensitive local considerations. Such a move might be inadvisable at the current time. We firmly believe that any change to the Assembly’s composition must be guided by the principles that it should be representative, proportionate and reflective of both traditions in the wider community.
As Baroness O’Loan said in the other place, reducing the number of MLAs returned to each constituency could have serious consequences for representation in Northern Ireland. We must always be careful not to leave certain areas unbalanced or unrepresentative. We have a clear interest in retaining plurality of representation and must pay keen attention to factors that are specific to Northern Ireland when making these decisions.
We have also made it clear that we are concerned about the increasing concentration of power in the hands of two parties. We would be cautious about any measure that might exacerbate that situation. For that reason, we support the measure to ensure that the Secretary of State requires a cross-community vote in the Assembly before any legislation to reduce its size can be passed. That cross-community element is embedded in the Good Friday agreement of 1998 and the consequential Northern Ireland Act, which was passed in July that year. Embedded in that Act were the principles of proportionality, mutual respect and understanding. Given the unique circumstances in Northern Ireland, and given that we do not wish to exacerbate the situation, we feel it would be better if those principles were embedded in the size of the Assembly. I am therefore happy, on behalf of my colleagues, to support the amendment.
Mr Robathan
I will correct this if I am wrong—it was before my time—but my understanding is that as a result of the consultation with the parties in the Assembly, which I believe took some time, the intention was to reduce the size of the Assembly by one Member per constituency. The problem with the Bill as drafted, until amended, is that it would allow the parties in the Assembly, if they so wished, to reduce the number by as many as they wished—perhaps down to one—because there is no limit. That is their lordships’ point, which we took on board in saying that the number would be determined by that which had been consulted on.
Mr Dodds
I thank the Minister for that clarification.
We certainly take on board the reasoning behind the amendment. What strikes me, though, is the Government’s concern about the Assembly passing legislation on a substantial reduction that could disproportionately affect the smaller parties. One of the things that was raised in the previous debate and is worth raising in this debate is that the Government did not express any corresponding concern when proposals were brought before this House on reducing the number of constituencies for the United Kingdom Parliament. We well remember the debates in this House, which ultimately came to nothing, about reducing the number of seats. Many of us from Northern Ireland constituencies pointed out that the net effect in Northern Ireland would be a reduction of two parliamentary seats. In fact, it would have provided for a rolling review whereby the number of seats in Northern Ireland—and indeed in other parts of the UK—could have been adjusted upwards and downwards virtually from election to election. That would have had not only a very destabilising effect on the political process generally, but a direct, knock-on, consequential effect on the number of Assembly constituencies and Members. The concerns expressed across the House—certainly by all the Northern Ireland parties—did not seem to have the same resonance with Government.
I accept the sincerity with which the Minister has brought this matter forward. We should bear it in mind, however, that the number of Assembly Members would have been directly affected as a result of the proposed changes that eventually came to nothing but were certainly intended by the Government. That would have had a major impact on the Assembly and its workings—on the stability and outworkings of the agreements, and so on. When we are discussing the size and powers of the Assembly, and all the rest of it, sometimes things are done that have, or could have, very direct impacts.
We have no particular number in mind for the size of the Assembly, but we do believe that it is time to get on with it. Now that we have this enabling power, assuming that the Bill is passed with the amendment in place, we hope that the parties that have been reluctant to reduce the size of government, and thereby the burden of government and the extent of the over-governance in Northern Ireland, will take seriously the views of the people out there. I hear that people on all sides believe there needs to be a reduction in the numbers in the Assembly and in Government Departments. There is an idea that interfering with or changing in any way anything to do with the institutions that were set up by the agreement would somehow undermine the process, but that is not sustainable or tenable. People are looking for more efficient government and for Government to save money in a time of austerity, and we should take their concerns on board. I hope that people will now take this enabling power and use it to reduce the size of the Assembly.
We once heard the then leader of the Social and Democratic and Labour party, the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), say that some of the ugly architecture of the agreement needed to be done away with. Some people still hold the view that nothing about the institutions can change at all. However, we are now in 2014, many years on from the Belfast agreement and a considerable way on from the St Andrews agreement, and it is time that politicians responded to people’s views and concerns and took a lead in reducing the burden of government on households and on taxpayers.
Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)
I congratulate the Government on listening to their lordships and accepting these amendments.
Fifteen years on, I am a bit like the Good Friday agreement myself—that much older and that much greyer.
Paul Murphy
Not so much wiser, I think.
I vividly recall that we decided on the final number for the Assembly in the middle of the night on Maundy Thursday. There was an argument that the Assembly should be bigger than it turned out to be—some of the smaller parties thought it was essential that they should all be represented—but we came to what appeared to be something of a compromise with 108 Members. I absolutely agree with the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). When the Government were dealing with the United Kingdom parliamentary boundary changes, they were challenged—I challenged them, as did the right hon. Gentleman and others—about the consequences of reducing the number of MPs in Northern Ireland for the Assembly, and therefore for the whole balance that had been agreed. That is now water under the bridge, so it is not an issue today, but it shows the mentality at the time.
In Wales, we have a population of 3 million compared with a population of 1.5 million in Northern Ireland, and an Assembly of 60 Members compared with an Assembly of 108 Members in Northern Ireland. That is obviously quite a difference. The Government recently appointed the Silk commission, which has recommended that the number of Members of the National Assembly for Wales should be increased because it has now achieved primary legislative powers and therefore has an insufficient number of Back Benchers to scrutinise legislation.
I very much take the point that there is no great merit in having a set figure if there is agreement to reduce it. My only mild criticism of the amendment is that it specifies a figure of five, and if, with agreement, the parties said that it should be four, the Bill would prevent them from implementing that. Nevertheless, a reduction from six to five is a start. Two important principles lay behind the number that was chosen: first, the need to make the Assembly in Northern Ireland as pluralist as possible so that as many points of view as possible are represented, which was a good approach; and, secondly and crucially, the need to ensure that changes are agreed with the political parties in Northern Ireland. I would be interested to hear what the Minister says about any consultations he or his predecessors had with Northern Ireland’s political parties to come up with the final figure and final recommendation that we are considering.
A few weeks ago, Northern Ireland was, in a sense, captured by a crisis about a so-called one-sided deal that may have occurred some years ago. I do not want to go into the details of that, but merely say that anything that is one-sided will eventually flounder. Everybody has to agree; otherwise, eventually, the deal will not last. This can be very difficult. For example, our agreeing on the release of prisoners in Northern Ireland—perhaps the most difficult part of the Good Friday agreement—was based on the agreement of the parties involved in the talks. Therefore, the key aspect of the amendment, which I wholly support, is the importance of getting general agreement.
Mr Robathan
I am afraid that I cannot be quite as entertaining as the hon. Gentleman, and I shall not try to be. ConservativeHome is not an official website. It is very interesting to read. I believe that it is called a blog, although I am a little out of date on such matters. People may put whatever they like on it. It is not an official website. However, we welcome support from all parties.
Stephen Pound
It was the word “Conservative” that fooled me, and the fact that the author of the article was a distinguished Conservative Member of the House and a former member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.
We are considering the first group of their lordships’ amendments. Just as the Opposition said in the upper House, we are happy with the structure of the amendments and will not oppose them. All the contributions that we have heard today have been positive and forward-looking, and all have given us hope for the future.
If I may say so in closing, it was particularly impressive to hear the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), who was so much a part of the process. He has worn well, as has the peace process. Long may both continue to flourish.
Mr Robathan
I will respond briefly to a couple of the points that have been made.
First, I hope that it will reassure the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) to hear that I, too, have argued endlessly for a reduction in the number of Members in this House, just as a turkey might wish for Christmas. I have always said that there are too many Members of the House of Commons. Personally, I would reduce the number to 500, although that is not my party’s current policy.
I welcome the views of the right hon. Member for Belfast East on progress—[Interruption.] I am sorry, I mean the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) is also sitting in the Chamber and I can see one or two differences between the two of them. The right hon. Member for Belfast North spoke about the need for change in the political structure in Northern Ireland. All the parties in Northern Ireland realise that there needs to be change.
I welcome the comments of the hon. Member for Belfast East about opposition. What is important is that the people of Northern Ireland want to see the Government in Northern Ireland held to account. We understand why the set-up came about in the Belfast agreement and we support that reason. However, I do not think that anyone believes that the current First Minister and Deputy First Minister structure will last for ever, because very few things do.
I was asked whether there was consultation with the Assembly parties. There was consultation with the parties before the Bill was amended. The clause was consulted on. The assumption in the consultation was that there would be a reduction of one Member in each constituency. That was inserted as a safeguard to ensure that a greater reduction was not steamrollered through. The smaller parties felt, rightly or wrongly, that they might be disadvantaged if there were a reduction of two Members per constituency. I think that this is a matter for the Assembly. However, the consultation was about a reduction of one Member per constituency and that was agreed to. That is why we brought forward Lords amendment 2.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North mentioned the reduction in the number of constituencies in the United Kingdom for the Westminster Parliament. I have put my cards on the table and said where I stand. I have been roundly pilloried for that from time to time by my constituents. However, because a different electoral system is employed for the Northern Ireland Assembly, such a reduction would not have the impact that he suggests. If there were a reduction in the number of constituencies in Northern Ireland, there would still be the same number of Assembly Members per constituency. There would be an overall reduction, but the same number of Members per constituency. The smaller parties would be protected because they would have the same number proportionally per constituency.
Mr Dodds
I am interested to hear what the Minister says. I am at a loss to understand how he can make that assertion, because he does not know, and nobody knows, what the Boundary Commission would come up with. We do not know where the two seats would be lost or what the configuration of the new 16-seat arrangement in Northern Ireland would be. Depending on where those seats were lost and where the boundaries were drawn, there could be a disproportionate effect on my party or on smaller parties, or there could be an impact on the nationalist-Unionist balance. He cannot assert what he has just said with any confidence because he does not know, and none of us knows, what the Boundary Commission recommendations would be in such a circumstance.
Mr Robathan
With the greatest respect to the right hon. Gentleman, that applies to any boundary of any constituency. My point is that the proportional representation system would allow smaller parties to have their say. Of course, there might be some unhappy situations. If I were able to stray beyond the remit of this debate, I would point out that there is a disproportionate number of Labour seats in the House of Commons, given the number of votes. However, I would not dream of mentioning that at the moment.
Paul Murphy
The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) referred to what the reduction would be if two seats were lost. There would be a reduction of 10 Members of the Assembly. There would be a further reduction of 18 Members if the number of Members per constituency were reduced to five. That is a reduction of 28 Members. The Minister does not seem to grasp the fact that the situation in Northern Ireland is totally different from the situation in the rest of the United Kingdom. The very fine balance of cross-community support could be affected by doing that.
Mr Robathan
On the contrary, I do grasp that fact. I do understand that the situation is different. The right hon. Gentleman worked very hard on the Belfast agreement and afterwards as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He will know that the settlement is not perfect and that many people would disagree with the current boundaries. We believe that the Assembly should be enabled to determine the reduction in its size. That is what clause 6 does, with the safeguard of Lords amendment 2. It is only an enabling clause, because we have devolved the matter to the Assembly and are allowing it to sort it out. I am sure that it will do so.
Lords amendment 1 agreed to.
Lords amendments 2 and 3 agreed to.
Clause 10
Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendments 5 to 8.
Mr Robathan
The amendments that were made in the other place to clauses 10 and 11 relate to the way in which responsibility for the civil service commissioners and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission might be devolved to Northern Ireland in future. The intention of the amendments is to ensure that there is sufficient opportunity to debate the arrangements before an order is brought before Parliament for devolution and to ensure that the important issues that need to be considered are highlighted before devolution takes place.
We had already undertaken, as a first step, that there would be a full public consultation on those issues. That commitment remains. Clause 10 would move the appointment of the civil service commissioners for Northern Ireland from the excepted category to the reserved category, making it possible for the civil service commissioners to be devolved using procedures that are laid down in the Northern Ireland Act 1998. Those procedures require cross-community support in the Assembly and a vote in each House of Parliament.
Lords amendment 4 to clause 10 will require the Secretary of State to lay a report in Parliament at least three months before he lays any order under the 1998 Act on the devolution of responsibilities in respect of the civil service commissioners for Northern Ireland. In that report, the Secretary of State will be required to set out the effect that the order would have on the impartiality of the Northern Ireland civil service, the merit principle for appointments to it and the independence of the civil service commissioners.
The intention of the amendment is to allow sufficient time to consider the arrangements for the devolution of the commissioners, if that should happen. Although responsibility for the civil service in Northern Ireland is already devolved, the Government recognise that the House might want to take into account the overall arrangements governing the civil service before deciding whether to devolve the appointment, functions or procedures of the civil service commissioners, given the extremely important interests that the commissioners safeguard. We have agreed that we will facilitate a debate on those issues at that stage.
Mr Robathan
The issue is whether to devolve the civil service commissioners to Northern Ireland. The civil service itself is already the responsibility of Northern Ireland, whereas the commissioners are currently under the control of the UK Government.
Mr Robathan
Currently, I understand, the civil service commissioners for Northern Ireland answer to the UK Government, but by devolving this issue, they will answer to the Northern Ireland Executive. I believe that to be the case, but just in case I am wrong—[Interruption.] Yes, the proceedings and functions are currently reserved, whereas the appointment is excepted. We intend to change that, so that appointment will also be reserved. I think that is a sensible way forward, and I thought it was supported.
Paul Murphy
I am not sure about this, but the Minister may know the answer. What is the position of civil service commissioners in Wales and Scotland, and particularly in Scotland?
Mr Robathan
Since the right hon. Gentleman was once Secretary of State for Wales, he might be better able to answer that than I am. I will write to him and let him know because I do not know the situation in Scotland and Wales.
Clause 11 proposes moving responsibility for appointments to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and its functions, from the excepted to the reserved category, making it possible for those responsibilities to be devolved in future. As with civil service commissioners, that raises questions about the commission’s independence, including its accountability should it be devolved in future.
Lords amendments to clause 11 set out a similar procedure to those to clause 10, and also require the Secretary of State to lay a report before Parliament at least three months prior to introducing any order on the devolution of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. In that report, the Secretary of State is required to set out her view about the effects that such an order would have on the commission’s independence, the application of internationally accepted principles relating to human rights institutions, and the relationship between the commission and the Assembly. We recognise that these issues are of real concern to those concerned with the effective operation of the commission.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has done an enormous amount of good in Northern Ireland, although that is not generally or widely recognised. Will he explain whether the commission is pleased and content with the changes that will be implemented by the proposed legislation?
Mr Robathan
The point about the Lords amendments is that there will be no change to the current status of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. We initially intended it to be devolved to the Assembly and the Executive, but any change will take place after further consultation. I am afraid the answer to the hon. Lady’s question will come during further consultation rather than now.
Devolution of the responsibilities of civil service commissioners and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission will, of course, be subject to consultation, and the Lords amendments intend to ensure that devolution is approached with proper consideration and scrutiny. I hope that the House will agree that that is the right approach.
Lords amendments 7 and 8 are technical amendments concerning the commencement of clause 24. Members will be aware that clause 24 amends an order-making power already passed in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, to allow us to take forward, by order, the changes to the new biometric framework in the reserved and excepted fields. The Northern Ireland Department of Justice could not legislate for that because the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2013 received Royal Assent too late, on 25 April 2013. The amendments will allow us to bring the position of Northern Ireland regarding the retention, use and destruction of biometric data in the interests of national security, or for the purposes of terrorist investigation, into line with that of Great Britain.
As the Bill is currently drafted, clause 24 would come into force on the day the legislation is passed. However, the order-making power in paragraph 8 of schedule 1 to the Protection of Freedoms Act is not yet in force. The amendment to commencement is intended to avoid a situation where the amendment to the order-making power in clause 24 comes into force before the power itself. That would have no practical effect and is technically undesirable. The change is entirely technical and has not been prompted by any debate or concerns in the other place. I hope that the House will agree to it.
Mr Dodds
Again, I would be interested to know the extent and outcome of consultation with the Executive parties about the issues covered by the amendments, other than the technical points relating to clause 24, which are of no particular concern and accepted by virtually everyone. Lords amendments 4, 5 and 6 deal with civil service commissioners and human rights commissioners. These are enabling powers that would transfer civil service commissioners to the reserved category. As the Minister said, the functions and proceedings of civil service commissioners are currently reserved.
The issue of reporting to Parliament was debated in the other place. I have no difficulty with as much parliamentary debate, scrutiny and accountability as there can be on these matters, or with bringing forward a report, as proposed by the amendments. I have no concerns about that and would certainly not oppose it. However, the purpose of the report to Parliament is, first, about the effect that the transfer would have on the independence of the commissioners, secondly about the principle that appointments should be based on merit after fair and open competition, and finally about the impartiality of the Northern Ireland civil service. One concern was that as things stood, without the Lords amendments, if Parliament wanted to pass responsibility for that matter to the Northern Ireland Assembly, it would do so by Order in Council, since such matters are reserved. That would not allow for amendments, and would be simply accepted or rejected in its entirety.
It would, of course, allow for any concerns about the independence of commissioners, appointments on merit, or issues of impartiality to be debated, but if there were concerns about those matters then no doubt Members of this House and of the other place would vote accordingly. If there are concerns about any of those things, I presume that the Government would not have an Order in Council. One wonders what the purpose of the measure really is.
There will be a debate and a report. Presumably everyone will say, “Well, we’re all content and happy,” and we will proceed to the Order in Council. However, if people say that they are not happy, or if the report states that things are not good, the Order in Council will not be introduced. To me, the whole thing seems effectively like window dressing, and I wonder about its purpose, other than to allow an extra debate, which I am perfectly content to have.
Mr Robathan
The amendment—[Interruption.] I think the Cheltenham festival is on, which is of great interest to the Irish—and to me, as it happens.
The amendment takes account of the concerns that were expressed in the other House. I believe the right hon. Gentleman is talking about the clause rather than the amendment. The amendment is designed to provide further time before anything is devolved.
Stephen Pound
Two points really need to be made. First, this is some of the most important business we have discussed on the Floor of the House. It is a matter of some shame that the Government did not introduce this group of amendments on Report in the other place, as that would have allowed a more informative and in-depth discussion. We could have spoken to it at greater length.
I wish to place on record at the outset a reiteration of the comments my noble Friend Lord McAvoy made in the other place: the Opposition do not oppose these amendments; in fact, we support them. However, I feel it is essential that we place on record one crucial and important factor. When we are talking about the institutions in Northern Ireland, we must not see them through the prism of Great Britain. Lord Alderdice referred in the other place to the size of the Assembly and said specifically that comparisons with Wales and Scotland were otiose, as there are functions and duties that fall to the Assembly in the Northern Ireland that are entirely different, and in many cases involve far harder work than would be found in Scotland or Wales. The obvious example is the land border with another country.
As all Members know, there are also huge key differences between the Northern Ireland civil service and the Westminster civil service. People who spend some time in Northern Ireland swiftly realise that civil servants in Northern Ireland have an entirely different role. They have a much higher profile partly because when there have been occasions such as the suspension of the Assembly or different governance arrangements, civil servants have taken decisions that are very often taken by Ministers. They are known far more widely; they have a higher profile. They engage with the public and they promote policies. The difference is not just practical; it is also cultural. That makes the report all the more significant.
I feel, however, that the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) has put his finger on an important point. There is a lacuna in the amendment regarding the nature, format, structure, content, aim, intention and extent of the report. We need to have an idea of the precise intention behind it. Will it be a tour d’horizon of the whole issue relating to the civil service commissioners? Will it cover just a specific point? Will it be an update? We need to have some idea, because this is an extremely important subject. I cannot imagine that anyone in the House will object to the issue of impartiality and the merit principle.
I said that I would be brief and, for once, I shall keep my word. These are important matters, and they perhaps need to be ventilated at length on another occasion, but for the moment we support the amendments. We seek further clarification on the nature of the report, and we underline yet again a fact that must never be forgotten— that we are talking about an entirely different sort of civil service. We must bear that in mind in making any decision on these matters. We support the amendments.
Mr Robathan
I am glad that everyone supports the amendments, although it was not entirely clear to me that that was the case as I listened to the debate. The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) has just pointed out something that I should have known—I suspect that the former Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) already knew it—which is that there is only one home civil service, which has one set of civil service commissioners. The Northern Ireland civil service is separate, which is why it has separate civil service commissioners. The answer to the right hon. Member for Torfaen’s earlier question is that there are no similar relationships in Scotland or Wales. This is not something I have come across before, actually.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) asked why we have the amendments. The reason is that, in the second Chamber of this Parliament, concerns were expressed—by, among others, Lord McAvoy—that insufficient safeguards and transparency had been built in. Indeed, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has suggested more than once, there were concerns about trust and transparency. In response to those concerns, the Government tabled amendments in the other place that will allow further consultation if anyone is concerned. I understand that their lordships wish to have a debate on the matter in their House; whether they do so or not is another matter.
Naomi Long
There is nothing in the Bill to suggest that the Secretary of State will be compelled to lay an Order in Council. They would therefore do so only if they were convinced that all was in order. On what basis, therefore, would the report be produced? Any report that we would debate in this House would be a positive one, and we would need to see the evidence base for that. It would be interesting to know precisely where that would come from.
Mr Robathan
The hon. Lady has put the cart firmly before the horse. I know that this is very old fashioned, but I believe that the purpose of consultation is to consult and to listen to what people have to say. If, for instance, everyone were agin the devolution of these powers, there might not be a report. The purpose of the amendments is to say that we will not bring one forward until there has been consultation. I am astonished to find people criticising the Government for trying to be consensual.
Naomi Long
Far be it from me to tell the Minister what his own legislation says, but it does not actually say that at all. It does not say that there will be consultation followed by a report. It says that a report will be produced, and that a debate on that report will be held three months before an Order in Council. That time scale suggests that the Secretary of State will already be intending to have an Order in Council, and will already have decided that the issues are not a problem. It is the basis on which such a decision will be made that we are trying to discover today.
Mr Robathan
I assure the hon. Lady that the reason for the amendment is to allow further consultation so that the report can be issued. If she wishes to be a consultee, I am sure that that would be fine. We have not laid down every step and turn that will be taken, but we are trying to proceed with the support of the parties. We have had the support of all parties for the amendments, so I am not entirely clear what the concerns are. Transparency and trust have been discussed, but that is what we are trying to allow—transparency, so that everyone trusts the process.
Mr Dodds
The Minister seems to be getting a little tetchy, if I may say so. Members of the House are carrying out their parliamentary duty to scrutinise the Bill. As the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) said, amendments were introduced on Third Reading in the other place, not on Report, so this is the first chance we have had to debate them. It is perfectly proper to examine the amendments, even though we will not divide the House on them. This is the first opportunity we have had to debate these matters.
May I pick the Minister up on his reference to Members in the other place raising the issues, to ensure that there will be a debate? Is the Minister saying that there will also be a debate in this House on the report?
Mr Robathan
The report will certainly come before the House. If there is a need for a debate, I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will ensure that there is one, as I understand it—
Mr Robathan
If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to call for a debate, we will have one. This is a matter for consultation—
Mr Robathan
Hold on. The reason the amendments were introduced on Third Reading is the perceived unhappiness in the other place about the existing clause. The amendment allows for further consultation, and the amendments have been welcomed. They are not designed to harm the parliamentary process in any way; quite the opposite, they are designed to allow further consultation.
Mr Dodds
I am grateful for the fact that the Minister has now placed on me the responsibility and burden for initiating debates, Government business and so on. I hope that he will involve me more often. I am surprised, but I welcome it and will follow him up on it—I am happy to discuss it with him in more detail. He is simply saying that we may have a debate and all the rest of it, but what is the purpose of a report being drawn up, and it being of such importance, if it is not to be debated? Why will the Minister not give a firm commitment that we will have a debate on the report?
Ms Ritchie
I thank the Minister for giving way again. Further to the intervention of the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), where in clauses 4, 5 or 6 is it specified that there will be consultation? Reference has been made by the Minister to consultation, but the Bill does not actually say that.
Mr Robathan
The reason for our discussion now is the amendments to the clauses. We are having a debate on the Floor of the House of Commons to discuss those matters. I am telling the hon. Lady that there will be consultation, whatever it says in the piece of paper in front of her. The point of the report is to inform parliamentarians of the Secretary of State’s view about the effect of devolution after consultation. She will not come to that view without having consultation. If there is agreement, there is not necessarily a requirement for debate; if there is some disagreement, there would be a requirement to debate—but we are aiming for consensus. The point made by the hon. Lady about what is actually written down in the amendment is somewhat spurious.
Ms Ritchie
I have to say, and my colleagues across the parties in Northern Ireland who sit here would agree, that the legislation would normally state whether there was to be consultation, so that that consultation could actually take place. No one was trying to say one thing, but to do the other.
Mr Robathan
I say quite categorically that the purpose is to allow the Secretary of State to consider the issues transparently, engendering trust, which has been mentioned. There will be consultation—I can assure the hon. Lady of that.
Let me deal with something else the hon. Lady mentioned. I was surprised she said that human rights in Northern Ireland were different from human rights elsewhere, as I seem to recall that human rights are usually referred to as being universal. Although there are sad and particular conditions in Northern Ireland, I do not think that the human rights of an individual there are any different, and nor should they be treated differently, from those of somebody elsewhere. We have the Human Rights Act 1998 in place, and if all parties in Northern Ireland wish to propose some special legislation at the Westminster Parliament, we would of course consider it, but I see no need for such a thing, and I have never heard anybody suggest there was a need before.
Ms Ritchie
May I suggest to the Minister that a Bill of Rights is required in Northern Ireland to deal with the special circumstances that exist in Northern Ireland? There may not necessarily be cross-party consensus, but there is a need for that Bill of Rights to deal not only with issues of the past, but those that have an impact on the present and the future.
Mr Robathan
I will take that suggestion away and consider it, but I have not heard that from anybody else in the four or five months I have been doing this job.
This has been a rather longer summing up than I expected and, on that note, I shall conclude.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Is the Minister giving way or has he concluded?
Madam Deputy Speaker
Is the hon. Lady indicating that she would like to speak?
Lady Hermon
I would indeed like to speak on this group of amendments, so thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to do so.
I am very surprised, and exceedingly disappointed, that the Minister seems not to have read the Belfast agreement. If he had done so, he would understand that it contains an entire page and chapter dedicated to human rights. In fact, the agreement creates the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and gives it, among other things, the statutory obligation to bring forward and advise the British Government on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland which contains rights particular to Northern Ireland. That obligation is in the Good Friday agreement or Belfast agreement—whatever one chooses to call it, it is still the same thing. So I was disappointed that he put it on the record this afternoon that he does not understand that the agreement contains a specific obligation about a Bill of Rights in Northern Ireland. Whether or not we all wish to have one is a completely different matter, but the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) has made a very valid point.
I listened carefully to the Minister’s response to the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). When pushed strongly by various interventions, the Minister gave a categorical assurance that there would be consultation before a report was brought to this Chamber or indeed the other House. I ask him to give the same categorical assurance, and reassurance, that any report brought forward by the Secretary of State would be discussed not only in another House, but in this Chamber.
When I came to the Chamber to debate this Bill for the final time, the atmosphere was cordial. I apologised for being a little late, but the atmosphere was cordial at that stage. It grieves me to have to say that the Minister has unnecessarily churned up a lot of disagreement and annoyance, because there is now confusion about what these amendments mean. It would have been helpful to the House if better clarification had been given in his wind-up and if he had not wound up so very quickly that other hon. Members to whose points he was responding did not have an opportunity to have their views aired properly in this House. I am disappointed to be saying that on the record.
I welcome the Minister’s appointment to the Northern Ireland Office. He had not been particularly well, having had an operation on his leg, and we are delighted to see him back in this House. However, may I just urge him to spend a little time, before he next speaks in a Northern Ireland debate, reading the Belfast agreement, which is supported by thousands and thousands of people? I will give him this opportunity to correct the record by allowing him to intervene on me to show this House that he has read it in depth and that somehow the provisions on the Bill of Rights escaped his attention.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. The Minister does not require the leave of the House. He may intervene on the hon. Lady.
Mr Robathan
I understood from the Belfast agreement, which I have to confess I read some 16 years ago when it came out, that the setting up of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission dealt with the particular issue of human rights. If I am wrong, I apologise.
Lady Hermon
I would urge a Minister in the Northern Ireland Office please to refresh his memory about the Belfast agreement. It is really embarrassing for a Minister who took up his job last autumn to make an admission to the House that he has not read it since it was signed in 1998.
Moving swiftly on; it is important when considering this amendment for the Minister to have clarified the point about the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission being measured by the Secretary of State who has to report to this House and to the other House on
“the application of internationally accepted principles relating to national human rights institutions”.
With the greatest respect, the word “national” is included there. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, of which I am a supporter—I am not always a fan of everything it does, but I am a supporter—is a regional human rights commission. Therefore, how on earth could the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland bring forward a report measuring the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission by “national” international standards rather than regional ones? I made that point in an intervention, albeit on the right hon. Member for Belfast North, but I did hope that the Minister would respond to it. As we will not seek to divide the House, clarification on that point is essential. I do not want to burden the Secretary of State even more than she is already burdened in Northern Ireland, but she has been asked to do an almost impossible task. If the Minister would like to intervene on me again, with the assistance of the hard-working civil servants who have brought forward these amendments—I praise the Northern Ireland civil service for its work, impartiality and high standards—I would be thrilled and delighted for him to do so.
Mr Robathan
I am sorry if the hon. Lady thinks that I have been in any way obtuse, because that was not my intention. The point about the report is that it will inevitably be discussed because the devolution order would have to be approved by the House. That is what the amendment does. It puts off the order of devolution.
With regard to the word “national”, I understand that the amendment refers to “internationally” and the Human Rights Act to which this country has signed up, and I understand that that is how it is effected. I understand that the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is separate, but as I explained, the human rights are universal. We have signed up to the Human Rights Act and the European convention on human rights.
Lady Hermon
I am most grateful to the Minister for that intervention, which does not really clarify matters, but I give recognition to the Minister for having responded with such good temper after my criticism of him. This is a hugely important and significant piece of legislation for Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is hugely important, as are the Northern Ireland civil service commissioners and the civil service. I just say again—I apologise to the Minister for my tone—that I was profoundly disappointed with the Minister’s response to the sensible interventions made by the right hon. Member for Belfast North, and the hon. Members for South Down and for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and other colleagues who have spoken. It would be wise, after 16 years—I say “wise” in a better tone of voice—for the Minister, before coming back to speak on an important piece of Northern Ireland legislation, to read the Good Friday agreement, the Belfast agreement, in detail.
Lords amendment 4 agreed to.
Lords amendments 5 to 8 agreed to.
Unmanned Air Vehicles
Lord Robathan Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Robathan
Mini unmanned aerial system (UAS) pilots receive a minimum of 71 days training. Tactical UAS pilots receive a minimum of 91 days training.
Since April 1999, 461 students have passed the UAS ground school course which is the precursor to UAS pilot training. Of these 140 UAS pilots (30% of those trained) are currently based in the UK and are qualified on systems which are flown in UK airspace for training purposes only. Up to 21 UAS pilots (5%) are deployed in the middle east for training purposes only. 48 UAS pilots (10%) are currently deployed in Afghanistan. The remaining 252 (55%) are either no longer in the Army, no longer employed as UAS pilots, or operate Hermes 450 which is not cleared for UK flying.
The Army has a process for evaluating every course for its effectiveness and relevance so that it can respond to changes in operational need.
The correct answer should have been:
Mr Robathan
Mini unmanned aircraft system (UAS) pilots receive a minimum of 71 days training. Tactical UAS pilots receive a minimum of 91 days training.
The number of soldiers and officers trained in UAS operations from April 1999 to October 2013 is 1,062. This includes all personnel who have completed basic UAS training at any point since 1999 including those who have undertaken conversion training from earlier systems or refresher training. Some individuals may therefore be counted twice, but it is not possible to identify these separately. At October 2013 146 personnel were deployed on UAS operations in Afghanistan. This was 13% of those who have ever been trained in UAS operations. All other trained personnel who were still serving were in the UK.
The Army has a process for evaluating every course for its effectiveness and relevance so that it can respond to changes in operational need.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Robathan Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
2. What assessment she has made of the effects of the reduction in public sector jobs in Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Andrew Robathan)
The long-term sustainable answer for the Northern Ireland economy must be a private sector revival. There have been significant labour market improvements over the last year and private sector jobs are up by more than 10,000 from the beginning of 2012.
Chris Evans
I thank the Minister for that response. Ireland, like Wales, has traditionally been reliant on public sector jobs. It is estimated that 26,000 public sector jobs in Northern Ireland will be lost by 2017, so has the Secretary of State had a chance to study the active industrial policy of Wales, which in the last week has seen jobs attracted to Pinewood studios in Wentloog and to General Dynamics UK in Oakdale in my constituency?
Mr Robathan
Actually, I have not studied the experience of Wales, although, as the hon. Gentleman will know, my family comes from his constituency. However, through the Northern Ireland Executive, we have agreed the economic pact, which understands the need to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy further towards private sector involvement and less towards public sector employment. For instance, in terms of Pinewood studios we have got a rather interesting programme called—what is it called?
Mr Speaker
While the Minister is thinking about it, we will call a supplementary question. We are deeply obliged to the Minister.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
12. What steps are being taken to encourage Northern Ireland to be plugged in to the digital economy?
Mr Robathan
May I just say that the programme a “Game of Thrones” is made in Belfast now? I do not recommend it personally, Mr Speaker, having watched the lot.
We are taking steps on the digital economy and indeed, throughout the United Kingdom, we are going for digital by default. We are very keen that more is done in Northern Ireland in terms of the use of internet and digital in general. We are very clear about that, but this matter is the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive and we help them with it through the economic pact.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
Contrary to the views of the Minister, and given the importance of public sector jobs to the local economy, what further measures will be taken to protect and retain Driver and Vehicle Agency jobs in Northern Ireland as well as Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs jobs in Newry?
Mr Robathan
The hon. Lady, for whom I have a great respect, has raised this matter with me before. What I would say about both public agencies is, first, they are not our responsibility: the DVA is, of course, the responsibility of the Department for Transport; and HMRC is the responsibility of HMRC. However, I would also say that we need to see in Northern Ireland and elsewhere—this refers to the last question—
Mr Robathan
It is the DVA in Northern Ireland.
In relation to the last question, those of us in the rest of the United Kingdom, for instance, register our vehicles online; I certainly do and I guess most other Members of the House do. People need to be able to do that in Northern Ireland as well. Changing working practices means that there will be changes in employment. We do not want to see anybody out of work, but we do need changes in working practices.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
To follow on from the question by the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), the loss of the DVA jobs in Coleraine and the loss of HMRC jobs are very specific to Northern Ireland and will affect the economy. What discussions has the Minister had with Arlene Foster, the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, to ensure that private enterprise can create jobs for those who are losing jobs?
Mr Robathan
There is a real drive towards getting more private sector jobs. For instance, only this month EE, the mobile phone company, has said that it will create 250 jobs in Northern Ireland; my hon. Friend will know that Arlene Foster and Ministers from the UK Government have visited the Singapore air show, and they hope to bring back potential contracts worth £479 million with Bombardier; and 100 jobs are being created with a £32 million investment in County Antrim. We are keen to get private sector jobs up there. We are getting private investment—the Government are on to exactly that. The economic pact and the investment conference last year are driving this forward, and we very much hope that by working together with the Northern Ireland Executive we get better employment.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
3. What steps she is taking to ensure a positive outcome from the Haass talks; and if she will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Andrew Robathan)
Neither my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State nor I have held any discussions with members of the Finucane family or their representatives recently.
Valerie Vaz
It is 25 years since the death of Patrick Finucane, and the Da Silva inquiry found shocking levels of state collusion. When will the Minister act on the growing calls for a public inquiry so that there can be justice for Patrick Finucane?
Mr Robathan
Today, when people have been speaking of the four soldiers murdered in Hyde park, one of whom I knew—and let us not forget the seven bandsmen murdered in Regent’s park at the same time—we should remember that the overwhelming majority of soldiers, RUC and Ulster Defence Regiment, served with distinction and with honour, as Desmond Da Silva said. Secondly, let me point out to the hon. Lady that the Prime Minister has already apologised twice for the collusion in the murder of Pat Finucane, which was of course disgraceful. The review by Desmond Da Silva found, I think, all the facts that needed to be known. The Secretary of State has indicated to the family that she will meet them should they wish to see her. However, there is a judicial review going on which queers this pitch slightly.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the House can have full confidence in the justice and objectiveness of Sir Desmond Da Silva’s report, Sir Desmond Da Silva being a very distinguished international lawyer who has prosecuted war crimes in Sierra Leone, with the rank of Under-Secretary-General of the United Nations, and recently led the inquiry into war crimes in Syria?
Mr Robathan
I think we can all agree with that. Sir Desmond is a very distinguished lawyer who found out the facts. As I understand it, Mr Ken Barrett has already been convicted of the murder of Pat Finucane. I do not think that a public inquiry like the Saville inquiry would reveal more than we know already.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The Government have belatedly taken a very forthright view on the inquiry on the Pat Finucane case. Does not the firestorm around the Downey case ensure that the Government should take a position, stick to the position, make it clear that they are not moving from the position, and allow everyone to know that?
Mr Robathan
I think the firestorm to which the hon. Gentleman refers is one on which we should all reflect. It is important that we move forward. An enormous amount has been achieved in terms of peace in Northern Ireland, and I am concerned about where such actions as took place yesterday may actually lead.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
6. What recent assessment she has made of the effect of the Government’s economic policies on youth unemployment in Northern Ireland.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
7. What recent assessment she has made of the Government’s economic policies on youth unemployment in Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Andrew Robathan)
Specific measures to address youth unemployment in Northern Ireland are the responsibility of the Executive there. The Government’s efforts to reduce the largest structural deficit in UK peacetime history are now bearing fruit. This, more than anything, will help deliver a sustainable economic recovery and so directly assist young people to find employment.
Alex Cunningham
But the fact remains that this Government continue to fail the young people of Northern Ireland even more than the young people of the rest of the country. Youth unemployment, at 23.8%, is a full 25% higher than the UK average, and that is bad enough. It is clear that special measures are required; does the Minister have anything specific in mind?
Mr Robathan
We are all concerned about youth unemployment; we must be. However, the hon. Gentleman should know that under the previous Government the number of under-25s in work dropped from 124,000 to 107,000. Under this Government, the number of under-25s in work has risen, and over 3,000 young people in Northern Ireland have come off benefits. It is a growing and improving economy across the United Kingdom that will deliver work to young people.
Debbie Abrahams
I am sorry, but that is just not good enough. We are in danger of seeing a lost generation. Nearly half of those who are unemployed have been unemployed for more than 12 months. What specifically are the Government doing so that we do not lose another generation of young people?
Mr Robathan
As I have, said, we are all concerned about youth unemployment, but this is a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive, not for us, because we have devolved that responsibility. It is a rising tide of economic recovery that will bring work to young people. The chief executive of the Prince’s Trust in Belfast has said:
“We’re quietly optimistic about the economy improving this year…it will take months if not years to filter through to…young people”.
That is what we want to see happening.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
My right hon. Friend will be aware that next week is the beginning of national apprenticeship week. What steps is he taking to promote that in Northern Ireland to encourage the employment of young people?
Mr Robathan
As I have said, this is a devolved matter, but I am delighted to say that there are high-tech and excellent jobs coming forward from companies like Bombardier and Thales which will have apprenticeships, which we applaud.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will be aware that my hon. Friend the Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis) recently visited the Secret Garden project, which employs young people with learning disabilities on the Hillsborough estate. They face redundancy. Will the Secretary of State reconsider her decision not to compensate the charity for the £400,000 investment it made in improving the site, and ask Historic Royal Palaces to consider retaining its involvement?
Mr Robathan
We all, of course, applaud any work with people with learning disabilities. However, that does not mean that this is the best way in which people can be served by a charity in Hillsborough, which would diminish the opportunity for Historic Royal Palaces to look after Hillsborough castle. I question the figure of £400,000 and think we should go back and look at the accounts more carefully.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Robathan Excerpts(12 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Andrew Robathan)
We have worked hard with the Executive to adapt our reforms flexibly to the circumstances of Northern Ireland. These reforms will ensure that work always pays and will help to lift people out of poverty by moving them into work. When fully implemented, universal credit will make around 3 million low-to-middle-income households across the UK better off.
Ian Paisley
The number of people living in poverty in Northern Ireland has increased from 18% in 2002 to 22% in 2013. In reality, that means that one in four people in Ulster earns and lives on a salary that falls below the basic standard of living. Will the Minister take the opportunity to give us an assurance that the cuts—the deeper and further cuts—talked about by the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not force more people into poverty in Northern Ireland?
Mr Robathan
I am not in a position to know what further cuts to the welfare budget the Chancellor may be planning. Northern Ireland receives more than a quarter more in Government spending per head in comparison with constituencies such as mine in England and, indeed, all English constituencies. It is a fact that Nelson McCausland specifically said that more people will be lifted out of poverty by universal credit, including some 10,000 children. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would welcome that. We are not immune to understanding people’s concerns, but we believe that it is work, not welfare, that will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland.
Julie Hilling
But does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) that Northern Ireland is “getting the best deal” on welfare when changes could potentially take £450 million per annum out of vulnerable people’s pockets?
Mr Robathan
I do not recognise the figures that the hon. Lady has quoted. What we wish to see is people in work. Unfortunately, the last Government left this country with the most appalling financial and economic catastrophe. All that the hon. Lady, her Front-Bench team and the Leader of the Opposition can suggest is more spending, more borrowing, more taxes and more debt, which will plunge us back into the disaster they left behind.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
The Chancellor has indicated that he is considering a new regime for annually managed expenditure, with an overall cap on welfare spending. Does the Minister believe that that will entail a cap within a cap for Northern Ireland’s welfare spending, and what discussions is the Northern Ireland Office having with the Treasury and the devolved Administration about the serious implications of such a development?
Mr Robathan
Officials are always discussing things with the Treasury, Indeed, an excellent young man who works for us has just come from the Treasury to increase liaison.
Northern Ireland cannot be exempt from that which is affecting the rest of the United Kingdom. The Belfast Telegraph has said that the Northern Irish cannot pretend that they can
“have it both ways; that we can continue to benefit from the Treasury—we get back more than we raise in taxes—while people in other parts of the UK suffer from the reforms… we cannot expect that situation to continue indefinitely.”
I think that the hon. Gentleman, who is a serious and grown-up politician, will realise that as well.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
I am relieved, as the whole House will be, that a “young man” is currently striving to bring light to this area. We wish him well.
In May 2010 the Conservative party in Northern Ireland, then sailing under the flag of the Ulster Conservatives and Unionists—New Force, or UCUNF, was comprehensively rejected by the voters. In the light of that, how can the Minister justify the continuing distress caused by the rolling threat of the imposition of a £5 million fine on the Northern Ireland Executive, and will he tell us when, this month, the sanction will commence?
Mr Robathan
If the hon. Gentleman wants to go back to May 2010, I think he might note that the good people of England comprehensively rejected the Labour party and all its works at that time, which I think was pretty sensible of them.
As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are looking after the interests of everyone in the United Kingdom. For instance, 1.6 million private sector jobs have been created since 2010, including jobs in Northern Ireland. [Interruption.] As has been explained to the Northern Ireland Executive, the sanction on welfare has not yet been imposed because the Treasury cannot impose it unilaterally. But might I say that the First Minister—
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
8. If she will hold discussions with the responsible Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive on the number of middle-grade accident and emergency doctors in Northern Ireland; and if she will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Andrew Robathan)
First, may I say how much I appreciated the hon. Lady’s contribution to the meeting we had yesterday with the disabled police officers in Northern Ireland, to whom we owe a great deal?
I understand the hon. Lady’s concerns about the issues she raises but these are entirely devolved. [Interruption.] The commissioning and provision of medical services in Northern Ireland are matters for the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety in Northern Ireland and the Health and Social Care Board. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There is far too much discordant noise in the Chamber. The question must be heard and the Minister’s answers must be heard.
Ms Ritchie
I thank the Minister for his answer, but he and the Secretary of State need to be more proactive on this matter because the policy that dictated the lack of A and E doctors emerges from Whitehall and London. Will he and the Secretary of State co-host with the responsible Minister in Northern Ireland a summit to address the shortage in A and E doctors?
Mr Robathan
Well, we will certainly ensure that we have discussions with the responsible Minister in Northern Ireland. We have had to take some very difficult decisions since 2010, but there are now more than 20% more A and E consultants in England than there were in 2010. We need to go further, but it does take six years to train a doctor and I think all Members, even those on the other side, will have spotted that we were not in power six years ago.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
The Minister will be aware that Northern Ireland hospitals have been well served over the years by doctors and nurses from India, Pakistan and Malaysia, but visa restrictions have made it very difficult to get doctors in. Will he speak to his Government colleagues to see whether these restrictions can be removed?
Mr Robathan
I am very happy to take that up on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland. I was not aware of that particular problem because it has not been raised with me, but I congratulate the staff in Northern Ireland hospitals, who have had such a great reputation, particularly those at the Royal Victoria hospital which I remember well from when I used to visit it.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
9. What public funding will be made available to help implement an agreement on flags, parades and protests, and dealing with the past.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Robathan Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
6. What steps she is taking to reduce worklessness in Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Andrew Robathan)
I am answering these questions together as they use exactly the same wording, which is a rather strange coincidence.
Karl Turner
Northern Ireland has a higher population of young people than any other region in the UK. Nearly one in four of them is without a job. Does the Secretary of State have a plan to get them back to work?
Mr Robathan
Specific measures on this issue are for the Northern Ireland Executive. However, the economic pact we concluded with them in June will help to rebalance the economy and improve employment prospects. As the hon. Gentleman will know, the number of those who are unemployed in Northern Ireland has fallen dramatically over the past year, and the number of employee jobs has increased by more than 5,000.
Mr Robathan
Worklessness, as the hon. Gentleman will understand, is the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive, but we support them in their stand to increase employment and reduce the number of people on unemployment benefit. The best route out of poverty is through work. As he will know, we are turning the corner on the economy, which is increasing employment both in the United Kingdom as a whole and in Northern Ireland specifically.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
Does the Minister of State agree that it is difficult to tackle unemployment when the major bank in Northern Ireland is implicated in a report that shows that the Royal Bank of Scotland was responsible for making viable businesses go to the wall in order to plunder their assets? Will he ensure that any investigation arising from the Tomlinson report includes the activities of Ulster bank and how it dealt with businesses in Northern Ireland?
Mr Robathan
The hon. Gentleman raises a very important issue, and I agree with him, of course. That is not the specific responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office; it is more for the Treasury and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. However, I absolutely support what he says. Everyone in the Chamber should deprecate the actions of any bank that has been pushing small businesses out of business.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
9. As part of the need to address worklessness in Northern Ireland, will the Minister have immediate discussions with his ministerial colleagues in the Treasury to address the issue of the closure, in March 2015, of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs centre in Newry, which makes a major contribution to the local economy in the southern part of my constituency? Will the Minister meet my colleagues and me to discuss that important issue?
Mr Robathan
I am happy to meet the hon. Lady and her colleagues. We should be clear that any redundancies in HMRC in Newry are voluntary. Nobody likes to see people lose their jobs be it voluntarily or otherwise. However, I say gently to her that the way in which people do business with HMRC and other Government agencies is changing, with much more being done online. I think she would agree that the most important thing is that customers of HMRC—the taxpayers—get a decent service. It might be the case that by doing business online there is less need for the current number of employees.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
5. What recent assessment she has made of the effect of the Government’s welfare reforms on Northern Ireland.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
8. What recent assessment she has made of the effect of the Government’s welfare reforms on Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Andrew Robathan)
When fully implemented, the introduction of universal credit will make over 3 million low to middle-income households in Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK better off. These reforms will ensure work always pays and help lift people out of poverty by helping them into work.
Debbie Abrahams
Given that families in Northern Ireland are on average £800 a year worse off under this Government, will the Minister tell us what the Government are doing to ease the cost of living crisis in Northern Ireland?
Mr Robathan
First, I do not recognise the figure that the hon. Lady has used, although I am sure that it has been put out by Labour party headquarters. As I have said in answer to previous questions, the way in which we can help people to prosper in Northern Ireland, as we all want, is to improve the economy and to get people into well-paid work. That is what we are doing. We are rebalancing the economy away from the disproportionate number of public sector employees in Northern Ireland. Currently, 30% of people in Northern Ireland are employed in the public sector whereas in the rest of the United Kingdom the figure is only 20%.
Mark Lazarowicz
Some 32,000 households in Northern Ireland are affected by the bedroom tax. Although existing tenants are exempt, new tenants will be hit by the fact that the vast majority of social housing in Northern Ireland has three bedrooms or more. Is that not just another example of how the bedroom tax is unworkable? It is costing more money than it saves and should be abolished in Northern Ireland and in the rest of the UK.
Mr Robathan
The purpose of social housing is to help those who cannot afford their own housing, which I welcome. However, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would like to discuss with his constituents and, indeed, the people of Northern Ireland whether the general taxpayer should pay for unnecessary housing for people who do not use it. That is why we are ending the spare room subsidy and that, I think, is supported by the people of Northern Ireland as well as the rest of the United Kingdom. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman might find that he is on the wrong side of the argument with his constituents.
Mr Speaker
Order. These are extremely important matters affecting people in Northern Ireland and there is far too much noise. Let us hear the Rev. William McCrea.
Mr Robathan
I am afraid that I do not entirely accept that. I do not think the hon. Gentleman is right. I know that the Northern Ireland Executive are considering, through the discretionary housing payments, having a transitional period, which is sensible. If he asks his constituents in Northern Ireland whether they believe that the general taxpayer should support extra accommodation for people in social housing, he will find that most of them do not.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
13. Does the Minister agree with the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) that Northern Ireland is getting the best deal on welfare when changes could potentially take £450 million a year out of vulnerable people’s—[Interruption.]
Mr Robathan
I am afraid that I did not entirely hear the question, as it is a little noisy in the Chamber.
Alex Cunningham
Does the Minister agree with the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, that Northern Ireland is getting the best deal on welfare when changes could potentially take £450 million a year out of vulnerable people’s pockets?
Mr Robathan
I agree with commentators in Northern Ireland, including the Belfast Telegraph, which stated:
“Quite simply, we cannot pretend that we can have it both ways; that we can continue to benefit from the Treasury—we get back more than we raise in taxes—while people in other parts of the UK suffer from the reforms.”
These are necessary welfare reforms across the United Kingdom. We support them and I think the hon. Gentleman will find that his constituents support them, too—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There is still rather a lot of noise. Let us have a courteous hearing for Mr Andrew Bridgen.
Defence
Lord Robathan Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Priti Patel
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much was paid to officials in (a) his Department and (b) its non-departmental public bodies in bonuses and other payments in addition to salary in each of the last five years; how many officials received such payments; and what the monetary value was of the 20 largest payments made in each year.
[Official Report, 25 April 2013, Vol. 561, c. 1272-276W.]
Letter of correction from Anna Soubry:
An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) on 25 April 2013.
The full answer given was as follows:
Mr Robathan
It continues to be a fundamental principle of Government policy that reward in the public sector should be linked to performance. The Ministry of Defence (MOD), in line with other Government Departments, rewards performance through the use of non-consolidated payments which reflect outputs, results and performance. These payments are colloquially known as ‘bonuses', although this is a misleading description because the performance-related element of pay is part of the Departmental pay bill rather than being an additional cost. In addition, the MOD operates a special bonus scheme (SBS) to reward civilian staff below the senior civil service (SCS) for exceptional performance in a specific task or for the achievement of professional qualifications which benefit the MOD and the individual. Both types of payments are non-pensionable and are a cost effective way of rewarding performance since they do not count towards pension costs, and so reduce the overall cost of employing civil servants.
Since 2010-11, the Government has restricted performance related payments for the SCS to the top 25% of performers (from 65% in previous years), saving the taxpayer around £15 million. They are only paid to reward excellence, for example to recognise and incentivise those responsible for delivering high quality public services and savings to the taxpayer. Pay decisions for non-senior staff are delegated to individual departments, enabling them to tailor reward packages that meet their own work force and business needs. Payments made since 1 April 2011 are detailed in Departmental transparency data which is available at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/non-consolidated-performance-awards--2
Details of how much has been paid in non-consolidated awards in financial years 2008-09 to 2012-13 are reproduced in the following tables.
Table 1: Details how much was paid to permanent members of the SCS in non-consolidated awards.
Performance year | 2007-08 | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Financial year (FY) | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 | 2012-13 |
Value of awards paid (£) | 1,501,700 | 1,594,500 | 995,500 | 505,500 | 362,000 |
Number of awards paid | 187 | 195 | 169 | 62 | 58 |
Table 2 details how much was paid to senior staff on fixed term appointments in non-consolidated awards.
Performance year | 2007-08 | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
FY | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 | 2012-13 |
Value of awards paid (£) | 333,915 | 838,393 | 557,293 | 616,916 | 1320,026 |
Number of awards paid | 16 | 27 | 23 | 21 | 13 |
1 There are still two awards outstanding that have not yet been paid. |
Table 3 shows the monetary values of the largest non-consolidated payments to the combined SCS population of permanent staff and fixed term appointees.
£ | |
|---|---|
FY 2008-09 | 88,296 |
61,250 | |
50,000 | |
48,000 | |
37,675 | |
31,703 | |
30,780 | |
30,000 | |
30,000 | |
30,000 | |
27,600 | |
24,000 | |
23,085 | |
22,085 | |
22,000 | |
21,546 | |
20,480 | |
19,000 | |
17,163 | |
17,091 | |
FY 2009-10 | 84,563 |
75,000 | |
72,540 | |
55,350 | |
50,000 | |
50,000 | |
48,720 | |
48,000 | |
31,470 | |
30,750 | |
30,000 | |
30,000 | |
25,765 | |
24,101 | |
22,888 | |
21,337 | |
21,033 | |
16,200 | |
15,000 | |
15,000 | |
FY 2010-11 | 73,080 |
49,937 | |
49,900 | |
48,720 | |
35,113 | |
31,668 | |
26,715 | |
25,755 | |
22,888 | |
22,153 | |
17,000 | |
16,100 | |
15,750 | |
15,605 | |
15,000 | |
15,000 | |
13,800 | |
12,500 | |
12,500 | |
12,500 | |
FY 2011-12 | 85,831 |
69,459 | |
49,950 | |
49,500 | |
48,720 | |
33,833 | |
25,578 | |
20,554 | |
19,492 | |
19,184 | |
17,637 | |
15,415 | |
12,500 | |
12,180 | |
11,250 | |
10,000 | |
9,000 | |
9,000 | |
9,000 | |
9,000 | |
FY 2012-13 | 60,000 |
48,720 | |
48,720 | |
36,541 | |
35,729 | |
27,087 | |
14,559 | |
13,015 | |
10,842 | |
8,000 | |
8,000 | |
7,813 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 |
Table 4 details how much was paid to staff below the senior civil service in non-consolidated awards.
Performance year | 2007-08 | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
FY | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 | 2012-131 |
Value of non consolidated awards paid (£) | 47,516,913 | 44,231,916 | 43,521,423 | 42,025,950 | 28,059,302 |
Number of awards paid | 71,940 | 66,585 | 65,504 | 64,944 | 51,829 |
1 Figures for financial year 2012-13 do not include special bonus scheme awards made in March 2013. |
Table 4 excludes information on staff in MOD Trading Funds as they have separate pay delegations.
With the exception of the Royal Air Force Museum and the National Museum of the Royal Navy, figures for the Department's non-departmental public bodies are included in the figures above.
Non Consolidated Performance Awards—The Royal Air Force Museum:
Table 5 details the total value of payments made to staff by way of non-consolidated performance and special bonus scheme (SBS) awards by financial year.
Financial year | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 | 2012-13 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Value of non- consolidated awards (£) | 102,379 | 69,300 | 49,600 | 70,024 | 74,919 |
Number staff receiving non-consolidated awards | 184 | 186 | 171 | 163 | 166 |
Payment range non-consolidated (£) | 67-5,610 | 100-5,610 | 100-400 | 100-550 | 100-525 |
Value of SBS (£) | 2,750 | 4,050 | 6,050 | 7,350 | — |
Number staff receiving SBS | 5 | 11 | 8 | 17 | — |
Payment range SBS (£) | 250-1,000 | 250-1,000 | 250-3,000 | 250-1,000 | — |
Non Consolidated Performance Awards—The National Museum of the Royal Navy:
The National Museum of the Royal Navy is no longer a non-departmental public body as it has gained charitable status. However, details are included for financial years 2008-09 to 2012-13. Table 6 details the total value of payments made to staff by way of non consolidated performance awards. The National Museum of the Royal Navy has no special bonus scheme.
Financial year | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 | 2012-13 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Value of non-consolidated awards (£) | 0 | 8,500 | 8,620 | 8,827.50 | 10,000 |
Number staff receiving non-consolidated awards | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 |
The correct answer should have been:
Mr Robathan
It continues to be a fundamental principle of Government policy that reward in the public sector should be linked to performance. The Ministry of Defence (MOD), in line with other Government Departments, rewards performance through the use of non-consolidated payments which reflect outputs, results and performance. These payments are colloquially known as 'bonuses', although this is a misleading description because the performance-related element of pay is part of the Departmental pay bill rather than being an additional cost. In addition, the MOD operates a special bonus scheme (SBS) to reward civilian staff below the senior civil service (SCS) for exceptional performance in a specific task or for the achievement of professional qualifications which benefit the MOD and the individual. Both types of payments are non-pensionable and are a cost effective way of rewarding performance since they do not count towards pension costs, and so reduce the overall cost of employing civil servants.
Since 2010-11, the Government has restricted performance related payments for the SCS to the top 25% of performers (from 65% in previous years), saving the taxpayer around £15 million. They are only paid to reward excellence, for example to recognise and incentivise those responsible for delivering high quality public services and savings to the taxpayer. Pay decisions for non-senior staff are delegated to individual departments, enabling them to tailor reward packages that meet their own work force and business needs. Payments made since 1 April 2011 are detailed in Departmental transparency data which is available at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/non-consolidated-performance-awards--2
Details of how much has been paid in non-consolidated awards in financial years 2008-09 to 2012-13 are reproduced in the following tables.
Table 1: Details how much was paid to permanent members of the SCS in non-consolidated awards.
Performance year | 2007-08 | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Financial year (FY) | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 | 2012-13 |
Value of awards paid (£) | 1,501,700 | 1,594,500 | 995,500 | 505,500 | 362,000 |
Number of awards paid | 187 | 195 | 169 | 62 | 58 |
Table 2 details how much was paid to senior staff on fixed term appointments in non-consolidated awards.
Performance year | 2007-08 | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
FY | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 | 2012-13 |
Value of awards paid (£) | 333,915 | 838,393 | 557,293 | 616,916 | 1320,026 |
Number of awards paid | 16 | 27 | 23 | 21 | 13 |
1 There are still two awards outstanding that have not yet been paid. |
Table 3 shows the monetary values of the largest non-consolidated payments to the combined SCS population of permanent staff and fixed term appointees.
£ | |
|---|---|
FY 2008-09 | 88,296 |
61,250 | |
50,000 | |
48,000 | |
37,675 | |
31,703 | |
30,780 | |
30,000 | |
30,000 | |
30,000 | |
27,600 | |
24,000 | |
23,085 | |
22,085 | |
22,000 | |
21,546 | |
20,480 | |
19,000 | |
17,163 | |
17,091 | |
FY 2009-10 | 84,563 |
75,000 | |
72,540 | |
55,350 | |
50,000 | |
50,000 | |
48,720 | |
48,000 | |
31,470 | |
30,750 | |
30,000 | |
30,000 | |
25,765 | |
24,101 | |
22,888 | |
21,337 | |
21,033 | |
16,200 | |
15,000 | |
15,000 | |
FY 2010-11 | 73,080 |
49,937 | |
49,900 | |
48,720 | |
35,113 | |
31,668 | |
26,715 | |
25,755 | |
22,888 | |
22,153 | |
17,000 | |
16,100 | |
15,750 | |
15,605 | |
15,000 | |
15,000 | |
13,800 | |
12,500 | |
12,500 | |
12,500 | |
FY 2011-12 | 85,831 |
69,459 | |
49,950 | |
49,500 | |
48,720 | |
33,833 | |
25,578 | |
20,554 | |
19,492 | |
19,184 | |
17,637 | |
15,415 | |
12,500 | |
12,180 | |
11,250 | |
10,000 | |
9,000 | |
9,000 | |
9,000 | |
9,000 | |
FY 2012-13 | 60,000 |
48,720 | |
48,720 | |
36,541 | |
35,729 | |
27,087 | |
14,559 | |
13,015 | |
10,842 | |
8,000 | |
8,000 | |
7,813 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 | |
7,000 |
Table 4 details how much was paid to staff below the senior civil service in non-consolidated awards.
Performance year | 2007-08 | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
FY | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 | 2012-131 |
Value of non consolidated awards paid (£) | 47,516,913 | 44,231,916 | 43,521,423 | 42,025,950 | 28,059,302 |
Number of awards paid | 71,940 | 66,585 | 65,504 | 64,944 | 51,829 |
1 Figures for financial year 2012-13 do not include special bonus scheme awards made in March 2013. |
Table 4 excludes information on staff in MOD Trading Funds as they have separate pay delegations.
With the exception of the Royal Air Force Museum and the National Museum of the Royal Navy, figures for the Department's non-departmental public bodies are included in the figures above.
Non Consolidated Performance Awards—The Royal Air Force Museum:
Table 5 details the total value of payments made to staff by way of non-consolidated performance and special bonus scheme (SBS) awards by financial year.
Financial year | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 | 2012-13 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Value of non-consolidated awards (£) | 102,379 | 69,300 | 49,600 | 70,024 | 74,919 |
Number staff receiving non-consolidated awards | 184 | 186 | 171 | 163 | 166 |
Payment range non-consolidated (£) | 67-5,610 | 100-5,610 | 100-400 | 100-550 | 100-525 |
Value of SBS (£) | 2,750 | 4,050 | 6,050 | 7,350 | — |
Number staff receiving SBS | 5 | 11 | 8 | 17 | — |
Payment range SBS (£) | 250-1,000 | 250-1,000 | 250-3,000 | 250-1,000 | — |
Non Consolidated Performance Awards—The National Museum of the Royal Navy:
The National Museum of the Royal Navy remains a non-departmental public body. However, details are included for financial years 2008-09 to 2012-13. Table 6 details the total value of payments made to staff by way of non consolidated performance awards. The National Museum of the Royal Navy has no special bonus scheme.
Financial year | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 | 2011-12 | 2012-13 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Value of non-consolidated awards (£) | 0 | 8,500 | 8,620 | 8,827.50 | 10,000 |
Number staff receiving non-consolidated awards | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 |
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Lord Robathan Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ms Ritchie
The RUC did not discuss the case adequately and left all six families, some of whom are directly related to me, feeling very unfulfilled. I think that that would be the best way of describing it. If the matter had been adequately addressed at the time and prosecutions had been forthcoming, we might not be in the place we are in now.
To return to new clause 1, there is a clear need for the Secretary of State to
“appoint a person or persons to prepare an analysis of findings, issues, patterns or lessons”.
In the case that I am describing, the police have said that there are patterns and lessons. The best way to deal with such matters is for somebody to document them. I believe that that is true right across the board and right across the community. I am sure that there are many similar incidents.
Given that the Minister was formerly at the Ministry of Defence, perhaps he could provide some elucidation on the Ministry of Defence files that have been held in Derbyshire and which the Historical Enquiries Team alleges it was not aware of until June or July of this year. The contents of those files could have been helpful in bringing prosecutions and in providing elucidation.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Andrew Robathan)
I am afraid that I have no knowledge of that and that I now have no responsibility for it either.
Mr Robathan
Let me first repeat an apology that I am sure you have already received, Madam Deputy Speaker, from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who is currently on ministerial duty in the United States of America. Let me also echo the condolences and sympathy that have been expressed for the family of Eddie McGrady. I knew him a little, and took part in debates with him. I would say of him, overall, that he was a particularly decent man. I may have disagreed with him on various issues, but he certainly stood up for his constituents, and stood up for what he believed in in Ireland. He was both decent and courteous. I wish that we could say that about every Member of Parliament, but I am not sure that people would.
Let me also say that I deplore the petrol bomb attack on the constituency offices of the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), who represents the Alliance party. As others have said, such acts have no place in the democratic process. This was a very worrying incident, and I hope very much that we shall not see more such incidents.
I used to take a great deal of interest in Northern Ireland affairs, but this is the first time that I have spoken in a Northern Ireland debate for eight years. I have been otherwise detained elsewhere—and I think that that is more or less the right description. I believe that I made my last speech about Northern Ireland during a debate on what the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) described in his opening speech as one of the worst pieces of legislation ever brought before the House, namely the Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill. I dug out my speech the other day, and I stand by every word of it. The Bill was indeed a disgraceful piece of legislation, and—as a result of pressure from all sides—it was rightly dropped by the last Administration.
I understand that the issues raised by new clauses 1 and 3 were considered in Committee, and that the hon. Member for Foyle initiated those discussions as well. I appreciate that his party would like more to be done to address legacy issues, and I sympathise with that to a large extent. Like him and, I think, all Members of Parliament, we want to see a way forward that commands the support of all parts of the community and all parties in Northern Ireland, but it was not evident from the interventions on his speech that there was support for this particular way forward.
Much of the responsibility for dealing with legacy issues is now devolved, and it is right for us to allow the local parties—which are, of course, represented here—to work towards an agreement on dealing with the past. I welcome the initiative that is being taken by the main local political parties in Northern Ireland to address the issue of dealing with the past through the all-party group chaired by Richard Haass. We have heard a certain amount about that today, and I agree with the hon. Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis) that we must not pre-empt, or in any way undermine, what is being done by Richard Haass. The Government support the efforts that are being made, and hope that progress can be made. As a House and as a nation, we should await the outcome of the talks, and Dr Haass’s report.
A great deal has been said about the Historical Enquiries Team. We should be clear about the fact that its work and the work of the police ombudsman are not the responsibilities of UK Ministers. Those bodies are accountable to the devolved institutions, and a carefully negotiated framework exists in relation to accountability of policing. There are already mechanisms for reporting on the work of the bodies that are the responsibility of the devolved Administration; creating a further mechanism is likely to incur unnecessary expense, and would also duplicate the work of other bodies.
Let me say in relation to new clause 3 that the Secretary of State already reports to Parliament by way of parliamentary questions and the Northern Ireland Office’s annual report regarding the work for which she is responsible. That does not provide for everything that the hon. Member for Foyle wants, but the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee does examine the annual report.
We cannot agree to the removal of the Secretary of State’s powers to exclude certain material from publication when it is in the interests of national security—or some other important public interest, such as the protection of life and safety—for that to be done. The Government therefore cannot support the new clauses, and, although I listened with interest to what was said by the hon. Member for Foyle, I ask him to withdraw his motion.
Mark Durkan
A number of points have been made about both new clauses, and I accept the spirit in which many of those points were made. I could readily rebut the detail, but I shall desist from doing so.
Let me take this opportunity of acknowledging the warm tributes that have been paid to Eddie McGrady, with whom I served in the House and whose election campaign I managed in 1987, when he unseated Enoch Powell. He served all his constituents, and indeed the wider community in Northern Ireland, well, and he was clearly held in high honour. He was also a man of much greater humour than his public persona may often have allowed him to express, but he was absolutely dedicated to the sanctity of life and the solidarity of community on a totally inclusive basis. The parity of esteem of which he always spoke was something that he himself clearly enjoyed across the political divide.
Important issues have been raised. I said at the outset that I did not wish to divide the House, or to do anything that could possibly be seen as pre-empting the Haass process. However, I think that the House must face up to its responsibilities in relation to the past, both now and in the future. It is in that spirit that I tabled the new clauses, and it is in that spirit that I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 2
Petitions of concern
‘(1) In section 42 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Petitions of concern), omit subsection (3) and insert—
“(3) When a petition of concern is lodged against a measure, proposal or a decision by a Minister, Department or the Executive (“the matter”), the Assembly shall appoint a special committee to examine and report on whether the matter is in conformity with equality and human rights requirements, including the European Convention on Human Rights and any Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland.
(4) Consistent with paragraphs 11, 12 and 13 (Strand 1) of the Belfast Agreement, a committee as provided for under subsection (3) may also be appointed at the request of the Executive Committee, a Northern Ireland Minister or relevant Assembly Committee.
(5) A committee appointed under this section—
(a) shall have the powers to call people and papers to assist in its consideration; and
(b) shall take evidence from the Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission.
(6) The Assembly shall consider the report of any committee appointed under this section and determine the matter in accordance with the requirements for cross-community support.
(7) Standing Orders shall provide for—
(a) decisions on the size, timescale and terms of reference for such a committee; and
(b) procedure(s) to allow for subsection (8).
(8) In relation to any specific petition of concern or request under subsection (4), the Assembly may decide, with cross-community support, that the procedure in subsections (3) and (5) shall not apply.”.’.—(Mark Durkan.)
This Clause would amend the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to reflect the terms and intent of paragraphs 11, 12 and 13 of strand 1 of the Belfast Agreement. It would qualify the exercise of veto powers, via petitions of concern in the Assembly, through the consideration of possible equality or human rights implications.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr Dodds
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s remarks.
In conclusion, new clause 2 is a misconceived proposal, but I commend amendment 3. It is a technical amendment saying that if we are giving the power to the Northern Ireland Assembly to reduce the number of Members of the Legislative Assembly—as we are proposing to do in this Bill, because that is right and proper, and that should be a matter for the Assembly—the Assembly should also have the power to consider the number of people required for a petition of concern to be valid. For it to remain at 30 would be completely wrong, as that number was regarded as proportionate for 108 MLAs. If the Assembly were reduced to 90 MLAs or fewer, as would be my preference, it would clearly be right, proper and sensible to reduce the number required to sign a petition of concern. Amendment 3 is a technical and sensible amendment, and I hope the Government will take it on board.
Mr Robathan
We are considering two issues of vital importance to the political settlement in Northern Ireland that are embodied in the Belfast agreement of 1998, a copy of which we have seen on the other side of the Chamber. Petitions of concern are intended to ensure that on sensitive issues, the views of both sides of the community in Northern Ireland must be taken into account. That is fundamental to the power-sharing arrangements that now exist in Stormont. The requirement that 30 MLAs sign a petition was part of the Belfast agreement and it has not been amended since that time. I believe that petitions of concern have been used 61 times since 1998, but there have been many more cases when the possibility of such a petition being used has led to policies being rejected or amended before reaching that stage.
At times, that has resulted in deadlock and important decisions being delayed. A failure to take into account the views of both communities would be far more damaging and could affect the stability of the settlement as a whole. As has been made clear, not all parties are content with how petitions are used at present, and I have some sympathy with the points made by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds).
Given the concern in Northern Ireland about the way in which the petitions are used, greater scrutiny of the impact of such decisions would seem appropriate, but there is already provision in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 for scrutiny of the kind the hon. Member for Foyle has proposed. The question is whether it would be appropriate for the UK Government to dictate to the Northern Ireland Assembly that such scrutiny must take place. I do not believe it appropriate for us so to do.
Turning to the amendment moved by the right hon. Gentleman, it is a valid question whether the number of Members needed to trigger a petition of concern should remain the same if the Assembly is reduced substantially in size. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) made clear in Committee, amending the threshold of support required for a petition of concern would require cross-community support before the Government could back it. Cross-community support is particularly important for this measure, which is a fundamental building block of the 1998 agreement and is specifically intended to protect minority interests. We have heard today of the different views that exist on the use of petitions of concern, and let me be clear to the House that no consensus currently exists on the matter. If such consensus emerged—for example, from the review process under way in the Northern Ireland Assembly—the Government would certainly be ready to consider giving effect to the conclusions when a legislative vehicle was assembled. However, I fear we are not yet at that point.
Turning to the amendment to clause 22, proposed by the hon. Member for Foyle, I know that the debate about objective need and equality is a live one in Northern Ireland and is a subject a new Minister should engage with delicately. I appreciate the force of and feeling behind what the hon. Gentleman said, and his comments will of course be noted in Northern Ireland. There are many who argue that the interpretation of “good relations” is the appropriate reading of section 75 as it stands. In its guidance for public authorities on promoting good relations, the Equality Commission Northern Ireland states:
“Equality of opportunity and good relations are inextricably linked and interdependent, and both must be addressed by designated public authorities. A failure to achieve one impacts on the ability to achieve the other.”
It adds:
“Promoting equality of opportunity sometimes requires the use of positive action measures in order to address existing inequalities with a view to achieving a level playing field for all. In such circumstances, public authorities must have regard to the desirability of promoting good relations both within and between communities, on the grounds of race, religious belief and political opinion, and consider what steps need to be taken to gain the confidence, trust and acceptance of all parts of the community. Communication of the reasons for the positive action is essential in this situation.”
Even if the clarification in the amendment suggested by the hon. Member for Foyle is necessary, it is difficult territory for Parliament to enter into without prior consultation with the Assembly and the Executive in Northern Ireland, which would try to find the broadest possible measure of agreement.
Much of equality law is devolved, and it would be wrong for us to legislate unilaterally here. The Executive have announced their strategy document on a shared future, entitled “Together: Building a United Community”, which proposes changes in the law, including the establishment of an equality and good relations commission. It seems that that is the context in which such steps should be considered. We would prefer, therefore, that the amendment be not pressed in the House, but I am sure the debate will go on and on. For the moment, I ask the hon. Member for Foyle and the right hon. Member for Belfast North to withdraw the new clause and the amendments.
Mark Durkan
I assure the House that I stand fully by both amendments and the case for them, but that will not run to the extent of troubling the House with a Division on them, not least out of respect to other business both on the Bill and on other matters yet to come.
As I have already said, I can refute all the arguments that have been made against both of my new clauses. I can also correct the mistaken reference to the Alliance redesignating to help elect Seamus Mallon as Deputy First Minister. At the time the Alliance redesignated, it was to elect David Trimble and me as First Minister and Deputy First Minister. As I understood it, the whole point about Seamus Mallon being deemed not to have resigned was precisely to avoid a vote. I want to correct that in case anybody thinks that I have been economical with the truth as it relates to me. At the time, I made it very clear to the then Secretary of State, John Reid, that I would have preferred an Assembly election than to be elected on that basis and on those terms. That clear view was expressed to both the Secretary of State and to Downing street at the time.
Mark Durkan
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1
Donations
Mr Robathan
I beg to move amendment 1, page 2, line 37, leave out “October” and insert “January”.
Mr Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendment 2.
Mr Robathan
These are relatively minor changes, and I hope that Members on both sides of the House will be able to support them. There has been support on both sides of the House for the provisions in clause 1, which will protect permanently the identities of those who have made donations to Northern Ireland political parties in the past.
In the past, donors gave money in the understanding that their identities would not be revealed, and it would be unfair to change that position without their consent retrospectively. However, there has been some debate about the date on which the guarantee of anonymity should end. The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), who is in her place, proposed amendments that would reduce the length of time for which donors would continue to benefit from these provisions. It is important that all donors are fully aware that the rules have changed at the point at which they make a donation.
The Bill as drafted refers to 1 October next year because the Government believed that that would ensure the clearest framework for political parties. It is a date that is already familiar to parties and their financial supporters as the date on which the prescribed period will end if the Bill does not come into force. All donors are already on notice that permanent anonymity will come to an end at that point. However, it has never been the Government’s policy to stand in the way of changes that might help to increase transparency, provided that the change to an earlier date can be implemented.
In view of the support for the change from all Northern Ireland parties represented in the House, whose donors are those affected, and from the Electoral Commission, which regulates party finance, the Government are willing to support a change to an earlier date.
Mr Robathan
That was my understanding. I have just taken advice from those in the Box and they agree, so I think we are pretty sure that that is the case.
Lady Hermon
Will the Minister kindly give me some advice? A large number of delightful gentlemen and ladies in my constituency are members of the Northern Ireland Conservatives. Should they follow this Bill, which applies only to Northern Ireland, or should they follow the example set by the Conservative party in the rest of the United Kingdom and make all their large donors and donations transparent, open and public, rather than keeping them secret?
Mr Robathan
I am not entirely clear what the hon. Lady is suggesting. The Bill will bring things in Northern Ireland to the same level as in the rest of the United Kingdom.
Lady Hermon
I am very pleased to see the Minister at the Dispatch Box this evening, but if the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland had been here she would, of course, have quite rightly reminded the House that Northern Ireland has become such a normal place that it could host the G8 summit in Fermanagh successfully and could host the world police and fire games. No matter how normal Northern Ireland has become, however, for some reason this Bill will preserve the anonymity of and secrecy about donations to political parties in Northern Ireland. That, of course, is not the policy in the rest of the United Kingdom, where the Conservative party supports transparency. Will the Minister take this opportunity to urge his sisters and brothers in the Northern Ireland Conservative party to make their donations public?
Mr Robathan
As of the end of January, they will all be public, as no anonymity will go beyond that—
Mr Robathan
Oh, I see. It is because it is discretionary. I am sorry, I had missed the point made by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). Having the discretion gives us the opportunity to do it, if I can put it that way. I think that she will understand what I am saying, but given that the Secretary of State is not here I think that it would be unwise of me to go any further down that road. I am sorry that I did not understand what she was saying the first time around.
Let me now turn to amendment 2. Clauses 14, 15 and 16 introduce minor changes to the requirements for voter registration for Northern Ireland, the requirements for obtaining an overseas vote and the requirements for absent voting. Hon. Members will be aware that European parliamentary elections are scheduled to be held on 22 May 2014. We look forward to them. It is also the Government’s intention that local elections in Northern Ireland be held on that date.
Amendment 2 is a technical amendment that changes the commencement date for clauses 14, 15 and 16 to avoid their coming into force during or immediately before the election period, which would be not only inconvenient but very difficult. It would avoid a situation in which electoral administrators in Northern Ireland were expected to make changes to registration and application processes at a time when they were busy with electoral preparations. It would also help to avoid public confusion about voter entitlements. It remains the Government’s intention to commence the provisions as soon as possible and in good time for elections to this House in 2015. As we say in government, the provisions will commence “soon” after the elections in 2014.
Naomi Long
I support the amendment, and I particularly welcome the fact that following our debate in the Committee of the whole House the Government have listened to the representations I made, as well as those made by the “Who Pulls the Strings” campaign in Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.
It is not often that those of us on the Opposition Benches see the matters that we would like a Bill to deal with being addressed. It is even rarer for those of us who sit as solitary Members to see such concerns taken on board. I am particularly pleased that a compelling argument has been made for the amendment. I must qualify that, however, with my slight disappointment that we have been unable to go further to remove the exemptions and rules in Northern Ireland to allow us to move into line with the rest of the UK. There is evidence of huge public demand for that in Northern Ireland. Like in every other part of the UK, and, I suspect, in almost every other part of the democratic world, there is suspicion and a perception in the minds of the public that politics operates for the benefit of the few not the many and that those who have money and influence can wield that to their own advantage.
To rebuild trust and confidence in the political system, it is hugely important that people have transparency about donations and can scrutinise whether donations made to political parties influence policy and decision making at a government level. That is not possible currently because even though donations are declared to the Electoral Commission, they cannot be published. I believe that the time has come for the veil of secrecy to be lifted.
The amendment is a good step in that direction in that it clarifies the position for donors. Those who donate up until the January date will know that their anonymity will be permanent. There was a question mark over that as the powers of the Secretary of State would have allowed those donations to be published retrospectively. I believe that people gave that money on the understanding that it would be handled with confidentiality and privacy, and that expectation should be met by the Government. That is very important.
The amendment also means that those who donate after January will know that those donations will eventually be published. They will not be published right away. It will be for the Secretary of State to decide at the next point of review, which is due, I think, in October 2014, whether the security situation, in her view, would allow her to publish them.
The amendment makes it very clear to anybody making a donation from January onwards that at some point in the future that donation will be open to public scrutiny. It clarifies the situation in their minds so that they know when they make the donation the risk and the public scrutiny that will be involved. They will be able to make an informed decision.
Sir Christopher Kelly gave evidence on the subject to the Committee. He was very clear that he was not convinced by the argument that security should automatically outweigh the right of the public to scrutinise donations that are made to political parties. I share his view and do not believe that security should outweigh that right. Indeed, despite everything that has been said in the House about intimidation and threats against my own party, we continue voluntarily to publish the details of those people who make donations of more than £7,500 to the Alliance party so that people are fully aware of and can scrutinise our policy decisions.
Perhaps I can take this opportunity to encourage the Minister, which I think my colleague the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) sought to do, to encourage his colleagues in the Conservative party in Northern Ireland to join us in voluntarily publishing their donors. Indeed, I urge other parties in this House in Northern Ireland to do likewise. I think that it would help to build trust and confidence in the political system, to ventilate what has become quite a toxic issue in Northern Ireland, not least in recent months, and to move forward on a clearer footing.
My disappointment is that we are not in a position at this point to make more progress on bringing us into line with the rest of the United Kingdom. However, the amendment is a good step forward. It will provide clarity for the public and reassurance that the direction of travel is towards openness and transparency. I thank the Government for taking this on board. The assurances given by the Electoral Commission that they can prepare parties and donors to be ready for the change that is about to take place by January has been helpful in enabling things to move forward. I thank the Government and fully support what they are proposing.
Mark Durkan
I welcome Government amendments 1 and 2. I want to acknowledge the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), who championed amendment 1 at an earlier stage of the Bill. I recall that at one point on that day, she thought she would not be able to divide the House, because she did not have Tellers; we guaranteed her Tellers if the amendment went to a Division. I also want to acknowledge the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), who put his name to the amendment and took an active part in the discussion, as a conscientious legislator and a person of consistency. I recall that on that day, the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) was very strident in pressing the Government to see the sense of the amendment, and in rejecting their arguments against it.
I am glad that the Government have found that there was consensus on the issue, but it was a new, revised consensus, induced by the fact that we had Divisions on the subject in Committee of the whole House. Clearly, very different messages were being given before that, including in evidence to the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs. It is one of the occasions on which debate in the House brought about change, not just in Government thinking but in how parties responded and saw those issues by understanding how they were regarded by others. The public are vexed about the lack of transparency and the readiness of too many parties constantly to use security considerations to deny scrutiny, which is treated as a matter of course elsewhere.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) has looked more widely at the issue of political donations, and we need to look at anything else that needs to be tightened up at any other level. I am particularly alert to the need to allow an active and positive interest by members of the wider Irish diaspora and by democrats throughout the island of Ireland, but that should never allow for any dubious corporate donations or anything else. It is quite clear that the ambit of measures in relation to donations to Northern Ireland has been cynically abused, and it does not match funding that would be allowed elsewhere. Again, for the sake of consistency, without transgressing any legitimate interest of the wider Irish diaspora, including the very recent diaspora, I would point out the need for balance.
Government amendment 2 is a sensible measure, as the provisions of clause 28 would impose quite a scramble and some difficulty on local electoral officers, so it makes sense to kick forward the commencement date.
Mr Robathan
I had forgotten what a vexed issue donations are—perhaps I should have remembered—whether from Michael Brown or one or two Labour donors. I can name them if the House wants. Indeed, we have had the odd one in our own party.
Mr Robathan
Funnily enough, his name crossed my mind, but let us go on to Lord Levy. Did he not give a lot of money?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We will stick with what is before us.
Mr Robathan
Right. I had simply forgotten what a vexed issue donations are, and I think we would all agree that we wish to move to the greatest transparency possible.
Mr Ivan Lewis
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman did not want to bracket Lord Levy with Michael Brown and Asil Nadir who, as I understand it, are convicted criminals.
Mr Robathan
I did not bracket them at all, except to say that there have been vexed issues over donations to each major party. The hon. Gentleman’s hon. Friend—
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. We are going to move on. The point has been made on both sides of the House, and we do not want to get bogged down. I am sure that the Members from Northern Ireland want to get to the meat of the issue.
Mr Robathan
I meant no disrespect to any Member of the House of Lords on that matter, although one or two of them have had a few problems. [Interruption.] I will if you want.
The vexed issue of donations stretches across the Irish sea and, indeed, across the Atlantic, as we have heard from the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). We would all wish to move to greater transparency. We have moved in Great Britain to increased transparency, which is absolutely right. I heard what the right hon. Gentleman said about people declaring their donations quite happily to the Alliance party. There is a special situation in Northern Ireland—we know that, which is why we are discussing the Bill—but we want to move forward with consensus to normality above all else. That has to be done slowly—we know why—and the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) said that it should be a case of one step forward. I think that that is the right way to go.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North wants to go further. Donations from America, as I understand it, must be made either by Irish citizens or by an Irish company carrying on one or more principal activities on the island of Ireland. [Interruption.] I have been told to lay off anyone going to jail, but I could name another one who is in the news today.
Finally, may I tell the hon. Member for Belfast East that I did not serve on the Bill Committee, but I understand that her amendment was resisted at the time? I hope that she realises as the single member of a single-Member party in the House that the Government listens. We have listened to her, and essentially we have accepted her amendment.
Amendment 1 agreed to.
Clause 28
Commencement
Amendment made: 2, page 18, leave out lines 1 to 3. —(Mr Robathan.)
Third Reading
Mr Robathan
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I should like to begin by thanking my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), who was in the Chamber earlier, for his work in preparing this Bill and steering it through the House. My task today has been greatly eased by the work that he has done in explaining the contents of the Bill to the House. I should also like to thank speakers from all parts of the House—from the four parties of Northern Ireland represented in the Chamber today—for their constructive contributions to debates on the Bill. [Interruption.] Three parties and an independent, I am sorry. I have looked carefully at the earlier debates, and I think the House has done an excellent job on the Bill. While we have not always agreed on amendments, there has been a great deal of consensus on much of its contents.
As many hon. Members have noted, this is not a Bill that makes radical changes to the architecture of government in Northern Ireland. It has been described variously as a “tapas Bill”, a “portmanteau Bill”, and a “bouillabaisse Bill”. The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), in his inimitable way, has even suggested that some would see it as a “bits and pieces” Bill. I welcome that sort of Bill, because I would describe it as a Bill for more normal times. In the past, Northern Ireland Bills have made fundamental changes to government in Northern Ireland, or have been introduced in response to political crises. This Bill supports the development of the devolved institutions. The emphasis now has to be not on further radical institutional departures, but on delivery—chiefly delivery by the institutions in Northern Ireland, but with our support—on reducing community division and on economic renewal. That is the keystone of our approach to Northern Ireland.
If I may be allowed a personal note, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am newly arrived back in Northern Ireland, although as some hon. Members will know, I spent time in an earlier incarnation there. Indeed, I spent the best part of a year in west Belfast, defending, as I saw it, people of the community of Northern Ireland, whether they were from a nationalist, Unionist, Protestant or Catholic background—I was defending them all—against the scourge of terrorism, and I am proud of having done so.
In my view of the past, and in my hopes for Northern Ireland’s constitutional future, I, too, have a past, shaped by my experience, which has shaped my views. For now, my aim is to work with all the politicians in the Northern Ireland Executive to help them to deliver the benefits to which the agreements have opened the way. The Bill is consistent with that approach. It clears the decks of a number of relatively small, but important, matters, to smooth the way for better delivery aimed at Northern Ireland’s future peace and prosperity. The changes that the Bill makes are not radical, but they are important. Northern Ireland is now moving in the right direction.
Lady Hermon
I am very flattered indeed that the Minister should regard me as a party in my own right. I am an independent Member but it is always lovely to be unanimous with myself.
The Minister will know that a key provision of the Bill is to move the scheduled election date for the Northern Ireland Assembly. By statute, the Assembly should be elected every four years, but that term has been extended. Will he kindly give a guarantee to the people of Northern Ireland that the House regards that as a rarity? In fact, when there is a statutory lifetime of a devolved Assembly that should be changed very rarely indeed.
Mr Robathan
I am delighted that the hon. Lady is unanimous with herself. I did not mean to portray her as a party, but rather as an individual independent.
On the substantive issue, as an historian I remember the Septennial Act 1715, which extended the life of the Westminster Parliament and was rightly disparaged over the years. Extending the life of any assembly or Parliament should be done with great care and only in exceptional circumstances. I, like the hon. Lady, am a democrat and I do not think we should go that way, but on this occasion there is general consensus that that is probably the right way forward.
It would have been inconceivable a decade ago to consider hosting world leaders in Northern Ireland for the G8 summit. I remember that when the Prime Minister announced it, some people said, “That’s a bit dodgy,” but it worked extremely well and I pay tribute to the people of Northern Ireland, who made it such a successful G8 summit. It would have been inconceivable a decade ago to present the Turner prize in Northern Ireland. It would have been inconceivable that hundreds of thousands of visitors would travel to Northern Ireland for events like the world police and fire games this summer.
The passing of this Bill through the House marks a further step towards normalisation for Northern Ireland. This is the first Bill since the imposition of direct rule in 1972 which has not been enacted in haste, as a result of a political crisis or to implement a political agreement. Instead, it has been subject to public consultation, pre-legislative scrutiny and thorough scrutiny following the usual timetable in this House. It is something to celebrate that we are now able to consider matters thoroughly and without the urgency that has been a feature of previous Bills, and although I have attended only this sitting on the Bill, I might say that we have been able to discuss it with good humour, which is also important. I commend the Bill to the House.