Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 14th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

1. What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the creation of a post of chief coroner to oversee the inquest system in relation to deaths of armed forces personnel.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to pay tribute to the late Private Matthew Thornton, who was killed in Afghanistan last Wednesday, from 4th Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment. He was a brave young man, serving his country, and I am sure that the whole House will wish to send its condolences and sympathy to his family.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has had no recent discussions with ministerial colleagues on the creation of a chief coroner’s post. The post is entirely a matter for the Ministry of Justice, although we have of course provided it with every assistance regarding the impact of the issue on military bereaved families, and we have engaged with the Ministry of Justice and with the Cabinet Office on the matter.

[Jessica Morden]

I should like to associate myself with the Minister’s opening remarks and with yours, Mr Speaker.

The Royal British Legion thanked hon. Members from all parties for their cross-party support when the post of chief coroner was agreed just two years ago. Does the Minister agree that the issue should unite, not divide, this House, and that appointing a chief coroner in line with the revised proposals from the Royal British Legion and Inquest would send a wonderful message to service families at this particularly special time?

[Mr Robathan]

I am afraid that I do not entirely agree. The important thing is the results that bereaved families receive at inquests, with which there have been problems in the past, and that is why the Ministry of Defence is, for instance, laying on specific events and continuing familiarisation with military inquests for coroners. We are also ensuring that they are properly trained with regard to bereaved families. People seem to have become hung up on the office of a chief coroner, but it is a Ministry of Justice matter, as I have said. What is important is that bereaved families receive an excellent service from coroners, and we are working very hard to ensure that that happens.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

To what extent does my right hon. Friend believe that the undoubted success in years gone by of the Wiltshire coroner, David Masters, and the Oxfordshire coroner, Andrew Walker, in improving the welfare and safety of troops has been down to their independence and to the fact that they have not had a potentially bureaucratic official standing over them?

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. and gallant Friend makes a very interesting point, and again the issue is that we do not have a bureaucratic official standing over coroners. Inquests in the past, as the Opposition know, were not always as sympathetic towards military families as they might have been, and indeed they were not particularly good with the bereaved, so we are allowing the Lord Chief Justice to set mandatory training requirements for coroners and their officers, including training in respect of military inquests, and we think that that is the right way forward.

[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

Last month I asked the former Secretary of State whether he had reviewed the Royal British Legion’s proposals to deliver a reformed coronial system at significantly lower cost than the Government estimate. He did not answer the question. May I once again give the Minister, under the direction of a new Secretary of State, the opportunity to put on the record his views about scrapping the office of chief coroner? Will the Minister support the Royal British Legion’s campaign?

[Mr Robathan]

I think that I am still a member of the Royal British Legion; I certainly have been, and I think that I paid my subscription this year.

I am a great supporter of the Legion. It is a fantastic organisation with fantastic people, but that does not mean that it is right about everything, and on this campaign it has rather overstated its case. It said in its briefing, which I have with me, that when asked in the street two thirds of people thought that a chief coroner was essential, but I ask all Members, “How many of their constituents do they think have heard of the chief coroner?” The answer is not two thirds of the population, I can promise you that much.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

2. What assessment he has made of the potential effects on operations in Libya of the unavailability of an aircraft carrier.

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[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

9. What steps his Department is taking to prevent the desecration of war memorials.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

War memorials provide a lasting and poignant reminder of all those who have served and died in the service of our country. Most right hon. and hon. Members will have attended a war memorial yesterday to pay their respects to the fallen, both in the first and second world wars and subsequently. It is shocking that memorials are being violated and vandalised in the manner that we have all read about. I support any plan to protect memorials, and I know that the Home Office and local authorities are committed to dealing with the problem.

[Stephen Metcalfe]

At this solemn time of year, when we remember those who fell to protect our freedoms, there is a small, despicable group of people who go round stealing metal from war memorials. What action are my right hon. Friend and his colleagues across Government taking to bring the full force of the law to bear on those individuals?

[Mr Robathan]

For myself—I should say that I am not sure that this is Government policy—if they were caught, I would ensure that they received exemplary sentences, but that is a matter for my colleagues in the Ministry of Justice. In the Ministry of Defence, the sponsored cadet forces are being encouraged to participate in project In Memoriam 2014. The project involves locating and logging the thousands of war memorials across the United Kingdom and marking them with SmartWater, a commercial product that should enable the metal components of war memorials to be forensically traced if they are stolen.

[David Wright (Telford) (Lab)]

The desecration of war memorials is an appalling crime, condemned by Members in all parts of the House. Would the Minister be willing to meet representatives from SmartWater, which is based in my constituency? It is doing a tremendous job protecting metal on war memorials, as part of its wider social obligation to our communities. Would he be willing to meet SmartWater representatives to see what more we can do to protect memorials? All parts of the House would support such initiatives.

[Mr Robathan]

I would be very happy to hear their submission. I should point out that the something like 100,000 marvellous war memorials in this country are not the responsibility of the Ministry of Defence. The War Memorials Trust is doing excellent work on this, but if the hon. Gentleman writes to me, we shall see whether we can have a meeting, perhaps with one or two of the people responsible for the matter.

[Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)]

12. What assessment he has made of the potential effects on (a) the Army and (b) UK industry of the capability sustainment programme for the Warrior armoured fighting vehicle.

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[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

16. How many children received support through the additional pupil premium for children of service families in the latest period for which figures are available.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

Some 45,000 service children have been recorded as eligible for the service child pupil premium in 2011-12. We are working to encourage service families to complete the annual school census so that their children and their schools can benefit from this additional payment to recognise the uniqueness of service life.

[Stephen Mosley]

There are currently 134 children from 1st Battalion The Royal Welsh in eight Chester schools, but parents and teachers seem unsure about the purpose and use of the pupil premium in their schools. What has the Minister done to raise awareness of the actions that the Government have taken to support service children?

[Mr Robathan]

This is a new initiative. We want to raise awareness, and anything that my hon. Friend can do to help in that regard will be very welcome. We have set aside £9 million this year for the pupil premium, and have also set aside £3 million specifically for schools that take a large number of service pupils and may be experiencing problems. We have invited them to apply for the money, but may I ask my hon. Friend to ensure that they look up the details on the Department for Education’s website and then apply?

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

17. What steps his Department is taking to support strategically important defence manufacturing industry in the United Kingdom.

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[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

T8. The British Legion’s money advice service helped more than 3,000 service families with unsecured-loan problems last year. Today’s Daily Mirror reports that firms such as QuickQuid are targeting military personnel and charging annual rates of more than 1,000%. According to the Daily Mirror, the Minister has never heard of payday loans, so how will he stop those get-rich-quick merchants ripping off our service families?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

May I counsel the hon. Gentleman? In no circumstances should he believe everything that he reads in the Daily Mirror. However, in response to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) who referred to payday loans on Thursday, I made the point that the issue had never been raised with me.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

You said that you had never heard of them.

[Mr Robathan]

I do wish that the hon. Gentleman would be quiet. I had indeed never heard of them, because the issue is not something that has come across my desk. However, I deprecate these ridiculous, high-interest loans, which are appalling. They are not something that we find in the chain of command. It is true that the Royal British Legion does an excellent job in helping families and, indeed, ex-service personnel when they get into trouble with debt.

[Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)]

T4. Will my hon. Friend tell the House how many force elements at readiness the joint Harrier force had at the time of the strategic defence and security review, and what his assessment was of the number of trained pilots and the force’s ability to conduct strike operations?

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[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

T5. There are reports that the Department’s medal review has been stopped and that an independent review will now commence. Can the Minister assure me that that will not cause further delays to veterans, such as those of the Arctic convoys, in getting a decision and that no service personnel facing redundancy will miss out on the diamond jubilee medal?

[Mr Robathan]

Two questions for the price of one. A review of medals is indeed ongoing. It has not yet been finalised. When it is finalised, it will be put before the House in the normal way. No one who is eligible for the diamond jubilee medal on the correct date, which is, I think, 6 February this coming year, will be affected by compulsory redundancy because the qualification date will be before anyone is made compulsorily redundant, although, of course, if they have not done five years on that date, they will not qualify for the medal.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Concern has been expressed about Army recruitment in Swansea because Territorial Army pay is taken off the benefits of Territorial Army personnel, thus undermining demand from those people who are not working to join the Territorial Army. Will the Minister talk to the other Departments involved to try to reconcile that problem?

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[Mr Robathan]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the issue. It is within the powers of any local authority to give a discount on council tax, should it wish to do so. I would welcome that if it improves the lot of our service personnel returning from operations.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

If, in the near future, Members of the other place decide once again to remove the chief coroner from the Public Bodies Bill, the Government will clearly have to think again. In those circumstances, will the Secretary of State stand up for the bereaved families of those who paid the ultimate sacrifice and encourage the Justice Secretary to adopt the affordable alternative put forward by the Royal British Legion?

[Mr Robathan]

I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was not here or was dozing earlier, but I answered the question—[Interruption.] What I can say to him is that we absolutely care for the bereaved families. That is one of our highest priorities, and rightly so. We wish to ensure that they get decent services inquests, and that is what we are doing. I point out gently to him that it was under the previous Administration that there were problems with inquests.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

T7. My family, like many other fans of the Red Arrows, were deeply saddened by the recent tragic loss of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham. Will my hon. Friend tell the House what steps are being taken to investigate that tragic incident fully and to ensure that similar tragedies are avoided in the future?

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

What specific new powers are to be given to local authorities to provide affordable accommodation for service families?

[Mr Robathan]

The hon. Gentleman raised the matter on Thursday. Only last night the Minister for Housing and Local Government was on television making the point that we are very keen that people returning from operations or from abroad and moving into their home area where they have not lived for some time should have priority in council housing. That is, of course, the responsibility of local authorities, but we are working hard with them to get them to take note that somebody who has been away for six years may be a resident of Islwyn, even if he has been living somewhere else for the past six years.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

This is the first chance I have had to welcome my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to his post, which I do with the greatest pleasure and the utmost confidence. Since the Atlanta games there has been an internationally accepted minimal level of protection for the Olympics. Will he confirm to the House that there will be a full range of multilayered defence and deterrence for the London games, including ground-to-air missiles in London?

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[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am delighted to have raised the consciousness of the Minister about payday loans in our debate last Thursday, and I am pleased to hear his words of condemnation today. May I press him to go a little further? Will he write to his colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to back calls for a cap on the cost of credit to protect our forces families, so that he can turn his outrage into action?

[Mr Robathan]

As I said to the hon. Lady on Thursday, I am already investigating the matter, although I make the point again that it has not been raised with me in the past 18 months that this is an issue with service personnel. I think it is an issue, obviously, because the hon. Lady raised it. It is not my responsibility to write to BIS, but if, in the course of investigations, it appears that that is affecting service personnel, I shall certainly take it up with BIS, as I agree with her—surprisingly—that the rates of interest are ridiculously high and should be capped.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

Does the Minister understand that any satisfaction there may be in Scotland about the announcement of Army units to be deployed at RAF Kinloss is more than tempered by severe disappointment in my constituency that no such similar announcements have been made in respect of RAF Leuchars? Promises have been made. Is it not time we were told how these promises are to be implemented and some guarantees were given?

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[Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)]

I remind the House of my interests. In the light of the proposed future utilisation of reserves, does the Minister anticipate any need to change their terms and conditions of service?

[Mr Robathan]

May I first pay tribute to my hon. and gallant Friend, who continues to serve in the Territorial Army, for which I am grateful? As he knows, there are concerns following the Future Reserve 2020 study, which we are concentrating on, such as the under-recruitment of young officers into the TA, which is extremely important. We are yet to decide on changes to terms and conditions. People join initially for patriotic reasons of service, and secondly, quite rightly, for adventure, excitement and such reasons, but we must of course get the terms and conditions right because finance is also important. We are looking at that closely.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

May I return to the issue of housing? Two weeks ago I was visited by a soldier who is to be invalided out of the Army. He has served in Afghanistan and elsewhere and has local relatives, yet the London borough of Hillingdon is contesting its responsibility to house him. I ask the Minister to liaise with the Minister for Housing and Local Government to get specific advice or instructions on local connection rapidly to local authorities so that they cannot use it to wriggle out of their responsibilities.

[Mr Robathan]

I am sorry to hear about that case. If the hon. Gentleman cares to write to me about it, I will certainly take it up with the London borough of Hillingdon. It is a great pity—I put it no more strongly—that some local authorities do not take sufficient care in their responsibility towards the armed forces. We are setting up community covenants, which many local authorities are taking up. They are about local authorities liaising with the military so that they take in people such as his constituent and give them priority when they need it.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

A recent ActionAid survey found that 86% of Afghan women worry about the return of a Taliban-style Government when international troops leave. What will the Ministry of Defence do in the lead-up to the planned withdrawal of troops in 2014 to ensure that we leave as a legacy an Afghanistan where there is safety and security for women as well as for men?

Armed Forces Personnel

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 10th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

It is highly appropriate that we conduct this defence debate only a few hours after armed forces veterans gathered at their own private commemoration in the churchyard of Westminster Abbey, where His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh was present.

I always wear a poppy between 1 and 11 November, but I do not need to wear a poppy—it is actually on my heart. The date I particularly remember is not this weekend but 6 December 1982, when six men were killed and 35 wounded under my command in Northern Ireland.

This debate is about personnel, so I shall concentrate on that. Getting the manning right is crucial for defence. When I commanded the Cheshire Regiment, I commanded about 600 people. When I joined it, the Cheshire Regiment had 700 people. In my time, tank regiments went from having 56 main battle tanks to having 42. Commanding officers are expected to do just as much as before, but with fewer people.

Of course, reducing manning has a direct impact on operational effectiveness. The strategic defence and security review suggests that Army strength should be at 82,000 with 30,000 reservists. I remain worried about how we shall get 30,000 reservists within a few years. The strength of the Royal Air Force is planned to be 39,000, with only 2,000 reservists. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), who is worried and thinks that the RAF has to rethink the matter of reservists. He made the point to me privately—and I think he mentioned it in his speech—that it was reservist pilots who were the most effective in the battle of Britain.

I am worried about how the fitness levels of reserves will be monitored. Will they pass their annual fitness test and their annual personal weapons test? How will they do that? What about their dental records? They have to be dental fit, ready to go almost immediately. Mobilising reserves is not necessarily cheap—certainly not as cheap as some people might think.

The armed forces are still quite top heavy. Apparently, there are more than 250 officers of one-star rank in all three services. During the second world war, a three-star officer—a lieutenant-general—used to command about 100,000 people. That is the current all-out strength of the Army today.

I understand, although I am open to correction, that there are 33 officers of two-star rank and above in the Royal Navy. There are two full admirals, six vice-admirals, and 25 rear-admirals. If we include one-star officers, that means that the Royal Navy has more than one admiral for each of its 40 fighting ships—and, by the way, each officer of one-star rank or above receives a salary of about £120,000 a year.

I will not leave the Army alone, however. The Army has five four-star officers, who are generals, and, although I am not sure, I believe that it now has 17 three-star officers, who are lieutenant-generals.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

rose—

[Bob Stewart]

The Minister is about to correct me, so I shall sit down and listen.

[Mr Robathan]

Off the top of my head, I think we have four three-star officers in the Army at present, although I share my hon. Friend’s concerns.

[Bob Stewart]

I thank my right hon. Friend. I am sure that he is correct. However, I am not trying to give exact figures; I am merely trying to draw attention to a trend, and to suggest that our forces are top-heavy.

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[Oliver Colvile]

The body should be asked to give advice, but perhaps ultimately, the decision ought to be made here.

[Mr Robathan]

The Honours and Decorations Committee might be obscure, but it exists to give advice to Her Majesty the Queen, who is the fount of honours and who gives medals, not this House. In my opinion, with which hon. Members may disagree—the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) is right that we are having a review—it is important that politics and party politics should not be involved in decisions on medals, because that should be done in the chain of command. I have been under pressure to intervene in gallantry awards for people whom I have never met. However, the granting of honours must be decided not by politicians, but by others who are involved in campaigns.

[Mrs Moon]

rose—

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[Chris Evans]

I thank my hon. Friend for that. Coming from a mining area, he knows as well as I do how much the lawyers frustrated justice for our miners too. I say this to the lawyers: if the Government have made an offer that is fair and acceptable to the veterans, they should accept it.

[Mr Robathan]

I am grateful to hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying. May I suggest that he says that to the lawyers in terms—not just in the House of Commons, as it is well known that anyone who wants to keep a secret should reveal it on the Floor of the House, but in the “Risca Herald”, or whatever it is called, and that he also talks to a firm called Rosenblatt?

[Chris Evans]

I agree, and I have said it before. I digress from the debate, but the miners’ compensation scheme was a wonderful scheme, yet it was frustrated by the claims farmers and other bloodsuckers who came along and tried to make money out of it. I think I have the support of the whole House in saying that. However, we have an opportunity to give those veterans justice. The Government need to stand up to the lawyers, and we need to do something about them.

When we discuss veterans, we often hear people in this House talking about “the forces family”. When I hear such phrases, I hope that they are not marketing speak or—dare I, a Labour Member, say it?—spin. I hope that they mean something. A member of a family is cared about regardless of what they do in their life; they know that help is available to them. Yet I hear all the time about veterans who leave the forces and receive no help, and in 2005, the Royal British Legion produced a report that stated that 6% of those leaving the forces had welfare issues and nowhere to go. I want the Government to do more.

It is easy, especially at this time of the year, to think of veterans as the old folk who walk in remembrance of their fallen comrades, but a veteran can be anyone—a 21-year-old or a 60-year-old—and we must do all we can to honour them. It is time for the Government to honour them properly, and that means creating a department for veterans. In the United States, George H. W. Bush said:

“There is only one place for the veterans of America, in the Cabinet Room, at the table with the President of the United States of America.”

That is what we should have in this country: the voice of veterans right next to the Prime Minister. At the moment, the Minister for veterans also has responsibility for forces education and accommodation. When my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) was the Minister, I think that he was even in charge of the weather. My predecessor as MP for Islwyn was also a veterans Minister, and he always said that, in the year that he was Minister for veterans and in charge of the weather, the sun always shone and we had the sunniest summer on record. I do not know how true that is.

Veterans need a voice to stand up for them. We have a wonderful organisation in Veterans-UK, but people do not know about it. Its name should be on the tip of everyone’s tongue, just as those of the BBC and many other organisations are. More should be done to advertise it, so that when people leave the forces, they know that there is an organisation that can help them.

I really should not say this, but I am going to give the Government a bit of advice. If they really want to be popular and if they really want to see their poll ratings go up, there is one thing that the Minister could do, right here, right now. He could make veterans day, on 27 June, a bank holiday. In that way, everyone could celebrate, just as they did during the royal wedding. They could celebrate veterans by holding street parties to thank them for all that they have done. That is the least we can do.

We ask our servicemen and women to do a job that most of us have no idea about. We are not asking them to join Barclays bank, or Sainsbury’s or Tesco’s, to do a job of work from nine to five. We are asking them to make the ultimate sacrifice. It is therefore right that, on Sunday, and tomorrow during the two-minute silence, we stand together to thank them and celebrate them. Let us do that in the summer as well; let us put a smile on everyone’s face for once. That is the least the Government can do.

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[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution. He gave me his card and he said, “You can speak in English or in Welsh.” As an Ulster Scot, I choose English. I was not sure about the other bit, because I would probably have got it wrong.

The number of people lining the street from St Mark’s through the town was incredible, and the streets were glowing with pride as crisp Union flags flew from every shop and every house, and were in the hands of many of the people who were there. There was a sense of pride and honour, which permeated through gender, age and religious barriers. All were united when they considered our troops and what they had done, and thanked them for it. That raises the question that we have the opportunity to speak about today: how can this House be more supportive?

As we come to Remembrance Sunday, we have a timely reminder of the sacrifices that allow us to stand in this Chamber and debate any topic—we are here because of what has happened before. My childhood favourite, Winston Churchill, stood in this House debating the merits of war and the need for war in eloquent fashion on numerous occasions, as the history books show. I do not do that today; today, I stand for our troops and say, “Recruit them, train them, equip them, feed them, speak with them, help them and support them.” For me, and I believe for everyone in this House, “We will remember them” is not a phrase but a promise.

We have had the opportunity to go to Afghanistan on a number of occasions through the armed forces parliamentary scheme, of which the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney is a member, as indeed are other Members here today. The hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), the Secretary of State for Scotland and Lord Maginnis were part of the group that went out there in March. Our troops need help on the battlefield, and we were much impressed by Camp Bastion and the medical facilities that were available. People there say, “If you ever get injured, make sure it is in Afghanistan and close to Camp Bastion, because you would not get the same medical help if you were involved in a traffic accident back home.” That is what we were seeing. On that occasion, two helicopters arrived—this was not planned, it was just the way things happened—with some American casualties and we witnessed at first hand the injured being taken into the medical centre and saw clearly the good work that is being done. I commend the staff for that.

The shadow Minister said that wherever we go in the world there will always be a soldier from Merthyr Tydfil. Wherever we go in the world there will always be a soldier from Strangford too. I say that because when I was in Afghanistan I had the opportunity to meet a young lady in the military police whose father I had helped with a planning application and whose mother I had helped with other issues. I also met a sergeant-major in the Irish Guards, who was from outside my constituency but whose uncle and aunt were personal friends of mine. I also had a seat at the Royal Irish barbecue there—for the record, it was a dry barbecue in Afghanistan, as there is no drink there. It was the first time that I can recall being with an Irish regiment at a barbecue where it was all water and lemonade. I sat across the table from a young guy who said, “Jim, it’s nice to see you here. I voted for you.” A guy in Afghanistan is able to tell me that he voted for me. I said, “That’s the reason I’m your MP—because you voted for me.” The service personnel asked me as a parliamentarian, and I believe they have asked every Member of Parliament, to be their spokesperson in the House, and I want to speak for them.

I also had the chance to be on a five-day exercise with the 1st Mercian Regiment in Catterick in north Yorkshire, which gave me the opportunity to speak to the troops and hear what they wanted. They are looking for security of their pensions and for continuity of service. They want the uncertainty of where they are posted to be sorted out quickly. They are looking for their housing issues to be resolved, for confirmation of their jobs and training, and for contact with their family. The Minister spoke earlier about wi-fi and the phone system. We witnessed that clearly in Afghanistan. The voice down the phone was their wife, their mum, their dad or their family and friends, and we noticed how important that was for the troops. We also witnessed the fact that they need a great deal of support.

The troops mentioned an issue which I hope the Minister will address in his closing remarks. They told us that they get 14 days leave, and sometimes on their way home they may find that they have to spend two days sitting in Cyprus, for example. That is two days lost out of their 14 days.

[Mr Robathan]

We have now ensured that if service personnel lose some of their 14 days’ rest and recuperation on their journey because of problems with the air bridge, the weather or whatever the reason may be, those days are added to their leave at the end of their tour. That gives people extra leave without disrupting the operation.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for that positive response, which will take care of some of the concerns that were expressed to us when we were in Afghanistan and by other soldiers.

I commend the Minister and the MOD for the work they do for those who are injured, who experience life-changing events, who are emotionally or mentally traumatised, or who have to come to terms with the loss of limbs. I met two such soldiers with the 1st Mercians some time ago, and I have to say that the work done within the MOD was tremendous. The improvement was clearly visible, and the work continues afterwards. One may see the physical changes resulting from the injuries that have taken place, but one does not always see what is happening inside. That is what concerns me.

In conclusion, we send our service people out and ask them to do and to see things that most of us here would not have the stomach or the understanding to see or do. What do we need to give them in return? I believe the unanimous voice from the House will be that we need to give them support. We must support them, and I appreciate the motion being brought before the House. We need to do more than consider our armed forces personnel, as the motion says, but I believe it goes further than that. A commitment has been given, and I believe everyone will support the motion, as I certainly will.

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[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

Once again, we have had a good debate. Like others, I want to begin by expressing my condolences to the family and friends of the soldier from 4th Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment who was killed in Afghanistan and the family and friends of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham, who was so tragically killed in an accident.

Like others, I want to pay a personal tribute to the men and women of our armed forces and to their families, who are an integral part of what they do. As has been said, this day—the day before Armistice day—and the days before Remembrance Sunday could not be a more appropriate time to have this debate. I am sure that all of us in the Chamber today will take the time tomorrow to observe the two-minute silence and remember all who have paid the ultimate sacrifice while serving our country, in the many foreign lands where they served, to enable us all to experience the freedoms that are taken so much for granted.

Over the years this Chamber has witnessed many defence debates, in which strong views have been expressed in all parts of the House. However, the one aspect of those debates on which there has been general consensus is the paying of tribute to all who serve our country. That said, it was only natural that we would witness some dividing lines today, especially when so many right hon. and hon. Members have referred to the reductions in the future numbers serving in our armed forces, and when many other elements arising from the debate on the strategic defence and security review have been raised.

In mentioning Remembrance Sunday, I also want to put it on record that the correct decision was reached in allowing the many holders of the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal to wear it proudly at the many services being held across the country on Sunday.

Let me turn to the many fine contributions that were made from both sides of the House. I want first to highlight the speech by the Chair of the Defence Committee, the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), who started by talking about turmoil in the Ministry of Defence, redundancies and changes to allowances. He clearly laid out the role of his Committee—a good Select Committee, one that, frankly, does the business. He encouraged us to think about the debate about wearing a poppy. He said that he lays a wreath—let me tell him that he is worthy of laying a wreath—on behalf of his constituents. We all wear our poppies, as a public acknowledgement of that debt, respect and thanks. We wear them with pride in our country and for those who have given their lives.

My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr Havard) surprised me somewhat when he talked about canvassing in Kabul. I am sure that Members in all parts of the House would ask themselves, “Does this man have no boundaries at all? Is there no line that he wouldn’t cross?” He talked about the array of skills that people pick up, as he said, by default. It was interesting to hear about the concept that the Americans train warriors, whereas we train soldiers. We know that those we train and whom we put on the front line have additional work to do beyond that. There is a peacekeeping element that we train our military for. My hon. Friend is right, and what I think he wanted to do today was make a plea for more time to debate defence issues. When we look back at the number of debates we have had and what is happening with defence in this country, we see that we need more debates.

There has been a rich variety of contributions today. Let me turn to the speech of the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier)—who, with perfect timing, has just appeared, as if by magic. I congratulate him on the part he has played in studying the whole issue of the reserves. He has what I would describe as limitless knowledge of the reservists, as he indicated when comparing them with reserve forces from other nations and how they prepare and perform. He has done a tremendous job. He was also critical of dysfunctional systems, and rightly so.

Another member of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), also contributed to the debate. It was interesting to hear that she spent Remembrance Sunday last year in Poland, and saw the commemoration of many aspects of the Polish resistance. We should never neglect our constituents or the work that we have to do in our constituencies, especially on Armistice day, but we should, if we can, take the opportunity to see how people from other nations view their history and those who have made the ultimate sacrifice. I was among several Members here tonight who gave up some time the other evening to listen to the RAF presentation team talk about Operation Ellamy, and it was interesting to hear the recognition of the support for and from our NATO allies.

My hon. Friend also mentioned the problems of short notice to deploy, and of families feeling isolated when they are left behind. Help is really important in those circumstances. I do not come from a military family, but I know from talking to my constituents and from contacts in my area that, when people are left alone, perhaps with children, it is more than family help that is required. We must be able to give families further support.

My hon. Friend also expressed disquiet—I will put it no more strongly than that—at the treatment of the Royal British Legion in the light of its struggle over the covenant. At the end of the day, however, I think that we, as a Parliament, got there, and that is what matters more than anything else.

The “forces’ pensioner”, the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), was right to say that the covenant must be applied right across the country, and that there must be no differential between one location and another. It must be there for all. I saw him last week in Westminster tube station collecting for the poppy appeal. All credit to him and others who did likewise. When I left London last Thursday morning for Swindon, I saw a Guardsman doing the same on Paddington station. When I returned some eight hours later, he was still there. He was in uniform, and he was attracting people to make a significant financial contribution. It is through such sterling work that people show their support for the poppy appeal.

[Mr Robathan]

People collecting at tube stations is a new addition, and the hon. Gentleman might be interested to learn that the London poppy appeal has already raised more than £430,000. I think that that is the correct figure.

[Mr Brown]

If that is the case, we should congratulate all those who have made the effort to reach that sum.

The hon. Member for South West Wiltshire also mentioned 2014. We often commemorate wars coming to an end, but he is right to suggest that we should commemorate and reflect on the outbreak of the great war. I fully support his proposal. I must, however, share with the House a certain anxiety, because 2014 is also the 700th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn, and I suspect that some people—not necessarily from my party, but from others—might wish to celebrate that as well.

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) made a poignant speech in which he clearly impressed on all of us the significance of this weekend. That was not lost on anyone. The hon. and gallant Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) has had to leave for another engagement but he said that it was important to get manning levels right. We are expected to do just as much as before, but with less, so the manning levels have got to be right. He shared with us his concerns about the reservist figures.

My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) referred to her concern about the chief coroner’s office and the issue of homelessness and resettlement, which a number of Members have raised.

The hon. Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster) spoke about the covenant, housing and health care. As to the strategic defence and security review, he made it clear that when it came to redundancies there should not be a cut in the resettlement package.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) referred to the tragedy in her constituency during the second world war. As others emphasised, she too highlighted the need to protect and preserve memorials and I say to the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) that legislation that might be relevant is already in place—though I stand to be corrected—regarding the handling of stolen goods. The question is how honest those in a position to receive something are going to be about reporting the matter. My hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow also mentioned the chief coroner’s office and said, basically, “Think again.”

The hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) mentioned the Special Boat Service, his support for the covenant and the importance of overall assistance for families. He also referred to social housing and housing waiting lists. Let me share with the House the fact that one of my registered social landlords has, thankfully within the last two or three weeks, agreed that when people know they are about to leave the forces, he will treat them as having been in tied accommodation and make a serious attempt to house people before they leave the military. That, I think, is the first registered social landlord in the whole of Scotland who is doing this. I hope that good practice like that can be shared with others. People who have served in the military should not find themselves homeless on leaving it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), whose partner is currently serving, talked about the vulnerability of individuals. This was a speech I would have expected from her because of her deep concern about the debt problems that people can face. There are issues there: with the Royal British Legion ending support for people with debt problems, more needs to be done.

I am conscious of the time and want to hear the Minister speak. Let me quickly say that there were good contributions from the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile), who spoke about mental health issues and combat stress, while my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) made loud and clear a plea for the veterans who were victims of nuclear tests.

Incidentally, the Minister pointed out that my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) was responsible for the weather when he was the Minister, but I have also been assured that he was the Minister for UFOs—but we will not go into that.

The hon. Member for Colchester mentioned military accommodation, as we would expect, and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) paid tribute to the Royal British Legion and local support for military personnel. The hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) raised her concerns about search and rescue and the important matter of the length and frequency of deployment. My hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) spoke about regimental associations and service charities, and the need for ongoing support for veterans on all fronts.

The hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) was the first to speak about the inheritance with which his Government was left and he also spoke about the strategic defence and security review. Only time will tell how strategic it is, but let us hope that there will be no serious consequences.

The hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) spoke about service housing, which, as he said, is a vitally important subject. I thank the hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) for allowing me to attend the meeting on the services trust the other day. I sincerely hope that the Minister will take all that on board. The hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) made important points about redundancies, and about those who should qualify for the diamond jubilee medal.

I must end my speech there, although there are other issues that I should have liked to raise. We have heard some excellent contributions that gave us plenty of food for thought, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

Let me add my condolences to those that have been expressed in relation to all our service personnel who have been killed in Afghanistan. It would have been strange if we had not all shed a tear at some stage for those who have come back from that country in coffins. Let me also mention, in particular, the Red Arrows pilot who was killed in a tragic accident earlier this week.

This is a fitting day for our debate, and, just in case anyone thought that the timing was a coincidence, let me make it clear that it was not. Over the next few days, ceremonies will take place and wreaths will be laid throughout the nation to commemorate local sacrifices and local heroes. I am sure that every Member in the Chamber will be taking part in them. In Afghanistan, services will be held to remember not only the many who have given their lives in past, but friends and colleagues whose memory is very fresh and very real.

Several Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), mentioned the appalling desecration of war memorials. One can hardly believe that it takes place, and it reflects very sadly on those responsible. I have my own views on what punishment they should receive, but all I ask is that an exemplary punishment be imposed when some of them are caught, for reasons that we all understand. That is not Government policy; it is only my own opinion.

I am sure the whole House agrees that the nation’s true feelings towards the armed forces, particularly the fallen, have been demonstrated spontaneously over the last few years by the people of Royal Wootton Bassett, and, now, outside Brize Norton. It is about honouring the debt to the fallen.

I believe that 25 Members spoke in the debate. I shall respond to some of them as quickly as I can, and I hope the House will forgive me if I do not take interventions.

I agree with the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) about a great many things, but I thought that the tone of his speech was churlish, if I may quote my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester. The record will show that it was depressingly partisan and carping, and self-congratulatory at the same time.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned pensions and the change from RPI to CPI. I declare an interest: I am in receipt of a military pension. The hon. Gentleman knows that public sector pensions must be sustainable. The public sector pension time bomb has featured in the newspapers and other media for well over a decade, and it is incumbent on Governments to make difficult decisions. The previous Government ignored the time bomb, but this Government are dealing with it. In Greece and elsewhere in the eurozone, untrammelled Government spending and debt are leading to huge problems. It is no good the hon. Gentleman’s shaking his head; I am afraid that that is what is happening.

Many Members raised the issue of the chief coroner, and I understand why people become concerned about it. It is incredibly important for coroners to be properly trained, and we are taking steps to ensure that they are. We are looking at ways in which we can improve the position still further. That is, of course, the responsibility of the Ministry of Justice. The question is, do we want box-ticking or do we want results? The answer is that we want results.

In my view, the campaign on this issue has been somewhat depressingly overstated. According to a document that I have here, recent ComRes polls clearly support the case for a chief coroner. Sixty-six per cent. of people questioned

“believe that a Chief Coroner is needed to ensure that coroners treat bereaved Armed Forces families sensitively.”

The poll was taken in September, before it really got going, and I suggest that 95% of people on the streets of our constituencies had never heard of the issue before that. What is important is the results of inquests and the good treatment of people at them, and we will get that right.

The hon. Gentleman told us a mere seven times that he had been a Minister, yet he took no responsibility for the dreadful state of affairs that we inherited in the MOD. There was a £38 billion black hole. [Interruption.] There most certainly was. Much as he may carp about the painful decisions taken in the strategic defence and security review, he must also answer for his responsibility as a member of the previous Government.

My right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), the Chairman of the Select Committee, brought us back to a more balanced view of life. He made a very sensible and thoughtful contribution, and I especially agree with him about wearing poppies.

The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr Havard) also made a thoughtful speech, in which he rightly emphasised the legal and moral complexities of armed forces’ international work, as well as the practical issues of support and equipment. I thank him for that.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) for his work on Future Reserves 2020, and I agree with him about young Territorial Army officers. I am looking into the security issues involving 7 Rifles officers, but I understand the people concerned had left several years earlier. We should be pragmatic and sensible on this issue, however. Since I first entered the House a depressingly long time ago, my hon. Friend has been a consistent champion of the reserves.

The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) reminded us of the whole nation’s role and responsibilities in respect of the defence of the nation. She also reminded us of the excellent performance in Libya of the RAF, the Navy and, indeed, some soldiers. I thank my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) for his excellent work on prosthetics and mental health, and I look forward to hearing more from him about world war one, and to working with him on plans for world war one commemorations.

The hon. and gallant Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) is no longer present, but he drew our attention to remembrance and to our responsibility in this place to the armed forces, and especially to bereaved families. I agree with him on that.

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) is also not present. He said there were 15 three-star generals, and I may not at the time have responded accurately; I said there were not that many, but I may have given the wrong number. There are, in fact, eight three-star generals in the Army at present. He made a valuable point about the fitness of reservists—and I know he will be leading by example on that.

The hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) paid tribute to James Eastwood and his parents, and I agree. Everyone who serves in Afghanistan deserves proper treatment, although I am not sure that a chief coroner would improve the service received by bereaved families. We are certainly concerned about anybody who is homeless, including ex-service personnel. It was said that 25% of homeless people are ex-service personnel. I think that would have been an exaggeration even 10 or 15 years ago. The proportion now is approximately 3% or 4%.

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster) made an important point about fragile states and concerns about Ministry of Defence and Department for International Development involvement. I will look into the issue of the 217 Field Squadron (EOD) reserve, and I will be happy to speak to him about it.

The hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) reminded us of the sacrifice east enders made in the second world war, and we agree entirely about vandalism to war memorials.

My hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms) mentioned the constant need to maintain, refurbish and upgrade housing. All of us who own houses know about that, so I agree, but that is particularly difficult and the previous Government found it difficult and worked hard on it as well.

I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) has taken a break from tweeting or twittering—or whatever the Prime Minister called it. She raised an important point about debt. I had not heard of QuickQuid and the targeting of service personnel, but we are not complacent and I have asked questions about this already. This specific point has never been raised with me, however, and I will look into it further. She was talking in particular about those who have left the services being targeted. All personnel get financial planning as part of their phase 1 training. That will include advice on not taking on a loan at ridiculous interest rates—I agree with her about that. Furthermore, we put particular emphasis on resettlement training, including for those early service leavers. I have never heard of payday loans, but I will look into the matter.

My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile), who is a champion for his constituency and for the Royal Marines, concentrated on mental health issues, raising very real problems. I walk on eggshells when discussing mental health issues, because the subject is very difficult, but we and the armed forces are very concerned about it. Again, I refer him to the “Fighting Fit” report produced by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire and to the work we do with Combat Stress.

I was interested to hear from the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) about the standard in St Mary’s church in Risca, because I believe that the reredos behind the altar is in fact a memorial to my great grandfather, but I will check it out. He referred to some lawyers as “bloodsuckers”—his term, not mine. All I would say is that those who served in the 1950s, when of course there was national service, deserve our respect. They were doing their duty when they were at the nuclear tests. We do study these things and, in fact, if someone was in the forces, including in that cohort who witnessed the nuclear tests, they are less likely to be dead by now—their mortality rate is lower—than those who were civilians at the time. So we need always to work on the basis of facts rather than emotion on this. Those people who have suffered or think that they have suffered as a result of their service watching the nuclear tests have been given war pensions, because the balance of probability means that it is very much on the Ministry of Defence to prove that we were not responsible.

My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester stood up for the armed forces, as always, and I would like to thank him for his great contributions to the debates on the armed forces and on the Armed Forces Bill. I say to him that mouldy carpets are absolutely not acceptable and I thought he was a very brave Liberal Democrat to quote from the Daily Mail.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said that people in Northern Ireland have every right to be proud of their contribution to the UK’s armed forces, and I agree entirely. I was discussing that contribution only yesterday with Edwin Poots, the Health Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive, and we also talked about the Camp Bastion medical facilities, to which the hon. Gentleman referred. I look forward to hearing his next contribution in Welsh.

I will need to come back to my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) on search and rescue, but she did ask an interesting question about manning discrepancies between RAF and Royal Navy helicopters. I am told that they are not that large, but we can see. I have been to the Naval Families Federation in Portsmouth, and she is absolutely right to say that the harmony arrangements in the Royal Navy are extremely difficult. I am sorry about the redundancy announcements. They are actually chosen not by Ministers, but by the armed forces and single services. However, she made a very good point about timings. All redundancies are painful, and that is certainly the case when they are compulsory.

The hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg), to whom I pay tribute for his work as veterans Minister, was right about the situation in 1919. We have moved on, for a number of reasons, but I am old enough to remember the stories about ex-servicemen with one leg selling matchsticks on the corner. We have gone a long way beyond that, and rightly so, but we must go further still. He referred to the bravery and sacrifice of our armed forces in Afghanistan and the need for success there, and I am entirely with him on that.

I wish to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) for his work as a Parliamentary Private Secretary in the MOD and I am delighted to see that he has a new job in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. [Interruption.] He has got another job, so the hon. Member for North Durham should not worry. My hon. Friend made my speech for me on both our policies and the early failings of the Afghanistan campaign.

I wish to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) for his work on the Armed Forces Bill. I agree with him about the serious housing issues, on which we will continue our work. We have a group, involving the Housing Minister, that discusses the difficulties that service personnel face in buying houses.

My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) raised the important issue of wills. I recently met a young lady who made some sensible suggestions on this subject. Her fiancé was killed in Afghanistan and she has had the most terrible time. We are looking at this, but we cannot compel people to make wills. We are including a software check-box that people must tick if they have not completed a will. I will certainly talk to my hon. Friend further about this issue; I am very happy to meet him to discuss it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) talked about naval redundancies, which are painful. Community covenants, which we introduced, allow local government organisations to take proper note of service families. I agree that reservists want to deploy and about the need for education. That is why I commend the armed forces parliamentary scheme for the work it has done for so many people.

Our soldiers, sailors and airmen are good people and they deserve our respect. We have had to take some very difficult decisions in the light of the dreadful state of the defence programme that we inherited. That is a matter of regret, but I am proud of what we have achieved in the past 18 months. Tomorrow—

--- Later in debate ---

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Government statement today on Project Avanti, which is about Army restructuring, is very interesting, and is made all the more so because it appeared in an American defence magazine on 7 November. It is important that we understand why the American defence community knew about the statement in quite a lot of detail, including naming names, three days before the House did. Will the Secretary of State for Defence, when he is available, come to the House to give an explanation or, at the very least, instigate an investigation within the Department into how that happened?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was not aware of that. I will most certainly ensure that it is looked into very closely and I will let the hon. Lady know.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I hope that has clarified the point of order. The Speaker has let it be known on several occasions that when Government announcements are made, they should be made to the House first.

Pingat Jasa Malaysia

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

Her Majesty the Queen has given her approval to a recommendation from the Committee on the Grant of Honours Decorations and Medals that those entitled to accept the Pingat Jasa Malaysia (PJM) medal should now also be permitted to wear it.

The Government of Malaysia introduced the medal in 2005 and awarded it to British and Commonwealth veterans who had served in the conflict in Malaya in the late 1950s and 1960s. Approval is not normally given for foreign medals to be accepted if British recognition for the same campaign has already been presented. As an exception, veterans were originally permitted to accept but not wear the medal. This was done to recognise the generous gesture by the King and Government of Malaysia, and their wish to award the PJM in recognition of service given by many veterans in the difficult years leading up to and following Malaysian independence.

Following this change to the original decision we are taking action to ensure that as many holders of the medal as possible are aware, to enable them to wear their medal with pride at remembrance events this week.

British Nuclear Test Veterans

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

The Government are committed to providing effective, through-life health services for our service and ex-service personnel.

As part of that commitment, last year we commissioned an independent health needs audit by Miles and Green Associates. I am announcing today the publication of their report. I would also like to express my appreciation for the help and support provided to Miles and Green Associates by the British Nuclear Test Veterans Association (BNTVA).

The audit records the direct experience and views of nuclear test veterans about their health and social care needs. Whatever their particular health needs, most respondents indicated that, in general, they felt their health and social care needs were being met by the NHS although a number of issues were raised about access to social care. The veterans also made suggestions for the future relating to general health and social care needs, those more specific to veterans and ways in which relations and communications with the Ministry of Defence (MOD) could be improved.

The MOD will now consider the report’s findings and suggestions made by the veterans in detail and in consultation with other Government Departments and will wish to work with the BNTVA going forward on looking at the various issues raised.

A copy of the full report will be placed in the Library of the House and will also be available on the MOD’s website at the following address:

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/HealthandSafety/NuclearTests/

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments 2 to 5.

[Mr Robathan]

This group of amendments deals with the armed forces covenant report. Amendment 1 reflects the concerns in the other place about what some considered to be an unfortunate juxtaposition that would result from inserting the armed forces covenant report clause in the Armed Forces Act 2006 directly after section 359, which deals with pardons for soldiers executed during the first world war. This Lords amendment, which the Government accept, will have the effect of moving the clause to a different position in new part 16A to the Armed Forces Act 2006, and the new part will be entitled “Armed Forces Covenant Report”. So, for the future, the covenant report will have its own part within the legislation. I commend this change to the House.

Lords amendment 2 deals with inquests. It responds to the views expressed in this House and in the other place about the desirability of including the operation of inquests in the list of topics to be covered in the armed forces covenant report. It addresses an issue that is close to the heart of many right hon. and hon. Members. Our intention has always been that, when the Defence Secretary prepares the annual report, he should have regard to the whole range of subjects within the scope of the armed forces covenant, including the operation of the inquest system for bereaved service families.

We have listened very carefully to the concerns expressed in both Houses and we have decided to accept the amendment. In so doing, I wish to put on record our understanding of what the amendment envisages. The effects of service that the Defence Secretary could cover as a result of this amendment could encompass a wide range of inquests for both veterans and serving personnel. In accordance with his understanding of what the amendment envisages, the Defence Secretary will exercise the same discretion on this topic as on the other mandated topics—namely, he will consider which groups of service people and which aspects of the operation of inquests it is appropriate to cover in his report.

Quarterly ministerial statements on military inquests are already provided to Parliament; indeed, they have been since 2006. They are accompanied by detailed tables outlining progress in conducting an inquest for each fatality resulting from operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Notwithstanding the wide range of potential issues, our expectation is that in current circumstances the annual report will focus on similar matters to those covered in the quarterly statements. Our understanding of what the amendment envisages is that it is intended to be broad, but that there are matters that should not be covered in the annual report.

Members are well aware that inquests and coroners are independent of Government. In so far as the Government provide a legislative framework for inquests, this is a matter for the Ministry of Justice, so I wish to make it clear that the Defence Secretary will not report on matters concerning the general operation of the inquest system, but only on those that affect service people.

It is clearly essential that investigations into the deaths of service personnel are treated equally in the annual report, regardless of where they are held in the UK. So, where appropriate, the Defence Secretary will under his general powers under this clause report on matters relating to the operation in Scotland of fatal accident inquiries into the deaths of service people. Inquests are a crucial part of how we support those who died in the service of their country. This amendment emphasises the debt we owe to the members of our armed forces who have given their lives and to their families. I urge the House to agree to it.

I deal now with the three Government amendments 3 to 5. These relate to the involvement of other Government Departments and the devolved Administrations in the preparation of the annual report. The fact that there are three separate amendments simply reflects the advice that the proposed new section of the Act was becoming too long and should be split up. It has no other significance.

During the Bill’s passage much attention has been paid to the relationship between the Secretary of State for Defence, who will be responsible for laying the annual report before Parliament, and the Ministers and Departments responsible for delivering many of the services discussed in that report. The annual report will of course be on behalf of the United Kingdom Government as a whole. However, the Government have responded to concerns expressed in both Houses, and the amendments introduce a framework enabling Parliament to be absolutely clear about who is contributing what to the report.

The Defence Secretary will in future be under an obligation to obtain the views of the relevant Departments on the matters covered in the report, and to seek those of the relevant devolved Administrations. That difference in emphasis reflects the different constitutional position. We are working with the devolved Administrations on the covenant, not imposing new duties on them. The Defence Secretary will be required to set out those views in full, or to obtain the Department’s agreement to any summary of their views. If the devolved Administrations have not contributed to part of the report, the report will make that clear.

I also draw the House’s attention to a number of undertakings given in another place on 4 October by my noble Friend Lord Astor of Hever on how the annual report will be prepared. In particular, the Government have made a commitment to consult the covenant reference group at an early stage on the issues that will be addressed in the report. The amendments, together with those commitments, underline our determination that the preparation of the annual report should be an inclusive and transparent process, so that Parliament can rely on its highlighting the key issue of the day. I commend them to the House.

Lords amendment 1 agreed to.

Lords amendments 2 to 5 agreed to.

After Clause 23

Commonwealth Medals

[Mr Robathan]

1 beg to move, that this House disagrees with Lords amendment 6.

The amendment inserts a new clause in the Bill which would permit members of the armed forces and Crown servants who are, or who have been, awarded Commonwealth medals to wear them without restriction. The debates in another place on the subject of medals leave no doubt about the emotions surrounding this important issue. The amendment raises questions about the process and rules for deciding on the acceptance and wearing of awards given by foreign and Commonwealth nations, about the position within that process of Her Majesty the Queen, and about recognising and supporting the Commonwealth.

The Government’s position on the fundamentals of how the system should work remains the same as that of the last Government, who, I remind the House, were in office when the issue of the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal was considered. It has been held by every previous Government since King George VI established the current system. The Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals—the HD committee—was set up to advise the sovereign on all issues relating to honours, decorations and medals. It consists of senior Crown servants from the Departments most involved. Where relevant, the views of service Chiefs of Staff are fed in and reflected in the advice given to the sovereign.

The thinking behind this approach is straightforward. When British citizens, whether civilian or military, carry out their duty to the sovereign and to their country, it is for the sovereign to decide on the award of honours for that service. That allows us to be consistent in our response to all foreign or Commonwealth states. It prevents a situation in which, if other states were free to honour UK citizens as they chose, there might be suggestions of patronage or influence. It also means that the advice given to the sovereign about the grant of honours is consistent across Government and, as far as possible, dispassionate. Decisions on whether to reward service should not be made in the glare of public or political debate. I do not pretend that absolute consistency has been, or always can be, maintained. Sometimes exceptions have been, and no doubt will be, made. This amendment would lay down for the future a new rule about medals: that those awarded a Commonwealth medal shall be entitled in all circumstances to wear it. However, it would also apply that rule to Commonwealth medals awarded in the past, including the PJM medal.

I do not wish to dwell today on the issues surrounding the PJM or any other specific medal. The Government will remain engaged with the Lords, who have argued strongly that the present arrangements for the PJM are not right. I recommend that the House should disagree with amendment 6 as this is not an appropriate matter for legislation.

The amendment overturns past decisions made on Commonwealth medals. In doing so, it establishes the precedent that Parliament may overturn—after any length of time—any decision of the sovereign as the fount of honour. It takes away from the sovereign—and, indeed, from the United Kingdom—any control over the acceptance of Commonwealth medals in the future. It is drafted in terms which apply whenever a Commonwealth country chooses to honour members of the armed forces, veterans or other Crown servants, even if that was against the wishes of our armed forces or, indeed, the sovereign. More generally, it establishes a further precedent that Parliament can lay down and change the rules which are to be applied to decisions on the acceptance of honours. It does away with the safeguards I have mentioned, such as the need for a basically consistent approach to awards by all friendly and allied states. It takes us to a system where decisions on the award of past, present and future honours are made in the party political environment of parliamentary consideration, rather than through the largely non-political approach set up by King George VI. I believe this is wrong in principle.

In addition, the amendment would create a different principle for the wearing of medals awarded by Commonwealth nations from that which applies to those awarded by other allies. The operations in which our armed forces are involved are increasingly international, with British units working alongside United Nations, NATO or European Union partners. We could not readily explain to non-Commonwealth allies, and especially to the individuals they wish to reward, why we treat their awards on a fundamentally different basis from those offered by a Commonwealth nation. Making a distinction of this kind is not the way to reflect our respect for the Commonwealth.

No system is perfect. As my noble Friend Lord Astor has stated in another place, officials have been instructed to look at the process by which advice about the institution of medals and the acceptance of foreign awards for military service is put together, considered and submitted to Her Majesty, and at how decisions are promulgated. They will then consider whether any advice should be given to Her Majesty about the need to review the process and make changes. We aim to conclude this work before the end of the year.

Lord Astor also said that, in the light of the continued strength of feeling about the PJM, we would put in hand representations to the HD committee to reconsider the position. That is the right way to handle such matters. The wrong way is for Parliament to overturn Her Majesty’s decisions and to establish a precedent for Parliament to lay down new rules. In particular, we should not make a rule which removes all further involvement of Her Majesty and the United Kingdom from decisions on Commonwealth awards.

These awards should be made in a measured, dispassionate and independent manner away from the glare of public debate. I urge the House to disagree with the amendment.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

I will not detain the House for long. The Minister said party politics should not be involved in the granting of awards and honours, particularly those from Commonwealth countries. I entirely agree, and I think he will agree that this amendment is intended not necessarily to change the law on these issues, but rather to bring attention to the situation with regard to the PJM medal. Our constituents have great difficulty understanding why these veterans, who are probably in their 60s and 70s and who have been awarded this medal by Malaysia, can receive it but cannot wear it. The approach is strange and very inconsistent. The Minister has said that there has not been complete consistency in the past on how these medals and awards are dealt with. I do not think for a second that a precedent would be broken here, because precedents have already been broken on who can and cannot wear particular medals.

--- Later in debate ---

I am grateful that the Minister indicated that the Government would look again at the issue of the PJM medal.

[Mr Robathan]

The right hon. Gentleman is making an eloquent case for reviewing the entire system, and we are currently carrying out a medals review. I assure him that it is a genuine review, not a—[Interruption.] Not one as conducted by the Government of whom the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) was a member.

[Paul Murphy]

The Minister has already indicated that both Governments did not really resolve this issue. The previous Government examined it carefully. Lord Touhig, the then Member for Islwyn, raised it on a number of occasions, both by way of an Adjournment debate and elsewhere, but he got nowhere with the Government of whom I had been a member. Nevertheless, it is important that the Minister understands the huge strength of feeling on this issue up and down the country. This is not about taking away the powers of the sovereign and it is not about the prerogative; it is about dealing with the simple issue that veterans who fought in Malaya in the 1960s should be allowed to wear the medal which they have been allowed to accept.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

I welcome the opportunity to discuss this amendment, and I am very disappointed that the Government are objecting to it. Lord Craig of Radley made a strong case for his amendment in the other place, supported by Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Touhig, arguing that our veterans and service personnel should be permitted to wear Commonwealth medals that have been awarded to them. It is very humbling to talk to service personnel and veterans about the experiences that have led to the awarding of a medal, and they should have the right to wear proudly the medals that they have earned.

I support the need for the awarding of medals to be fully considered by the cross-departmental Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals, but we cannot continue to have anomalies such as veterans being awarded a medal but not being given the right to wear it. This amendment therefore seeks to address the specific issue in relation to the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal.

[Mr Robathan]

I know that—[Interruption.] Actually, I think it is quite gentlemanly. The hon. Lady cannot be held responsible for the actions of the previous Government because although she may have supported them, she was not in the House, but sitting next to her is someone who was doing my job not 18 months ago—the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). This was not a matter of any concern to him then.

[Gemma Doyle]

That is not an argument for not acting this evening. If the Minister will allow me to make a little progress, he will understand why we are supporting the amendment this evening. I have no desire to upset royal prerogative, and I respect traditions and conventions, but I did not come into Parliament to accept the status quo meekly—I stood for Parliament to challenge conventions that institutionalise unfairnesses such as this. As we have heard this evening, many Members in the House have recognised and acknowledged that unfairness in their support for holders of the PJM.

Colleagues on both sides of the House, some of whom have now moved to the other place, have campaigned on this issue for many years. I think that in the beginning they would have accepted the response that this was a matter for the HD committee, but now, after years of politely asking the committee to reconsider this matter, Parliament must stand up and take a lead. There cannot be many Members here who have not been contacted by a holder of the PJM who would dearly love to wear their medal. My constituent Moira Murray from Dumbarton, who served in the RAF and travelled to Malaysia to collect her medal, visited me during the summer to say how proud she would be to wear it. Moira is joined by thousands of other brave British veterans who served in Malaysia in the 1950s and ’60s who have been awarded the PJM by the grateful Malaysian nation, which was keen to recognise their contribution, but the HD committee decided that they should be allowed to accept it but not to wear it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

Before addressing Lords amendment 6, I wish to join colleagues in paying tribute to the men and women of our armed forces, wherever they serve, and expressing gratitude for their hard work, bravery and courage.

I agree with the Minister. The Liberal Democrats will be disagreeing with our friends in another place on this matter. We need a full and thorough review of all the issues associated with the awarding of Commonwealth medals. It is pernicious for the Opposition to pick one medal and try to make political capital out of it, rather than looking at the matter overall. However, I say to the Minister that this will be the second review that the coalition Government have had on the awarding of medals. It is important that this time we learn from the failure of the previous review to secure cross-party support and get it right for the long term. The terms of reference and the timeline for the last review were not made public and it failed to consult interested stakeholder groups, including the veterans to whom the medals are awarded. I ask him to give an assurance that those three concerns will be resolved in the new review.

[Mr Robathan]

We have since consulted specifically on each issue and await the approval, or otherwise, of the medals review, but I am afraid that it has not yet been approved.

[Stephen Gilbert]

I thank the Minister for his intervention.

Bomber Command (Campaign Medal)

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) on securing this debate on the very brave men and women of Bomber Command, and their appalling sacrifice, which she has described, during the second world war. I will cover this in more detail, but there are two issues here. One is the respect and admiration that we should have for those very brave people who gave up their lives in many instances in service to their country in incredibly difficult situations. The second issue is how we should recognise their bravery and continue the world’s knowledge of what they did, 66 years after the end of the second world war.

If I may recap, more than 8,000 aircraft were lost. Out of 125,000 air crew, 55,573 were killed. Statistically, a Bomber Command crew member had a worse chance of survival than an infantry officer in world war one. Some 19 members of Bomber Command received Victoria crosses. I can assure everybody here that the Government maintain a deep appreciation—a real appreciation and admiration—of the courage and sacrifice of all those who served in Bomber Command during world war two. We owe them a great deal. My own view is that every schoolchild should know what they did, and I fear that they do not. Everybody in this country should understand that one in six UK fatalities in the second world war were in Bomber Command—a staggering number.

Aerial bombardment was not new in 1939. Indeed, the first recorded example of aerial bombardment took place in the summer of 1911 when Italian aircraft, sent to north Africa to fight the Turks, dropped modified grenades on to an enemy camp near Tripoli. Damage was slight and world reaction insignificant, but it was a significant development in air power. World war one firmly established this new role. Between 1914 and 1918, two distinct types of aerial bombardment emerged. The first, practised eventually by all combatants, involved the fairly simple concept of dropping high explosives on to enemy rear areas, hitting lines of supply, command networks, fuel dumps and military concentrations. This became known as tactical bombing or, if it entailed isolating enemy forces from their own support echelons, interdiction bombing. Exactly where close support and ground attack ended and tactical bombing began was, and often still is, a debatable point.

The second form of aerial bombardment was the concept of strategic bombing. The founder of the RAF, Lord Trenchard, had postulated that the bomber was a potential war-winning weapon, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock suggested. If raids could be sustained, industrial plant would be destroyed and civilian morale undermined to the extent that the enemy would be unable to continue the war. So persuasive were those arguments by 1939 that it was a widely held fear, particularly in Britain, that city areas were doomed to destruction within days of the outbreak of war.

The RAF went to war organised into four separate command units: Fighter Command, Bomber Command, Coastal Command and Training Command. My hon. Friends the Members for Thurrock and for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) will need no reminding of the feats of Fighter Command during the desperate days of the battle of Britain, but it was then, at least, primarily a defensive force. Bomber Command’s great asset was that it could take the fight to the enemy—an all too precious occurrence in those early war years. However, by the time he took over as head of Bomber Command in February 1942, Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris had become disillusioned with the effects of precision bombing and was turning to area bombing. This technique required the assembly of very large bomber fleets, up to 1,000 or more, and the inundation of whole areas with high explosives and incendiaries. The aim was to use statistical probability rather than selectivity to destroy military targets, and to make a direct assault on German civilian morale. At the time, it was considered a proportionate response to the terrible damage inflicted on London, Coventry and many other British cities during the Blitz and the later V-bomb attacks.

I do not think that there should have been any guilt felt then, or now, because this was a war to the bitter end. I certainly do not believe that anybody who was involved in Bomber Command should believe that they were doing anything other than furthering the British war effort between 1939 and 1945. Debates may still rage about the strategy, but there is no doubt about the bravery and integrity of those who took part. Night after night, these brave volunteers risked giving their lives—indeed, many gave their lives. The danger was enormous: enemy night fighters, anti-aircraft fire, mechanical failures, extreme navigational challenges, and the prospect of imprisonment for those who managed to bale out in time. Sorties could take eight to nine hours and brought with them a mental as well as a physical ordeal, the intensity of which would be unfamiliar to their colleagues in uniform on the ground or at sea.

I recommend that hon. Members visit the RAF museum in Hendon, look at a Lancaster and see how the whole crew had to get out of a hatch in the front, no bigger than one of the chairs in this room, while wearing a parachute. That is, of course, one reason why so many did not get out, which is a terrifying prospect. Bomber Command pilot Mike Lewis described the experience thus:

“We went in under an absolutely cloudless sky. We were literally over the harbour when the next thing people started reporting was that fighters were climbing up. The German pilots...turned in and just sat blasting away at us and blowing us out of the sky until eventually they ran out of gas and had to go home themselves. If there had been more gasoline I think none of us would have reached our home. We were sitting ducks. It was terrifying.”

Let us not forget the absolutely crucial role of the ground crew and the in-flight engineers—more than 100,000 of them. Without them, Bomber Command would not have been able to carry out 364,514 sorties, drop more than a million bombs, and tie up vast amounts of scarce German resources that would otherwise have been used elsewhere in their war effort.

The dedication and sacrifice of those who were part of Bomber Command is not in question; the debate has always been about how best to recognise it. Those who served in Bomber Command during the second world war were eligible for one of the stars instituted for campaign service: for example, the 1939-45 star. In addition, a series of campaign stars were created for participants in particularly hazardous campaigns—this was certainly one—and many Bomber Command personnel qualified for the much-prized Air Crew Europe star or the France and Germany star.

The case for awarding a medal to those who served in Bomber Command was also considered by the relevant Committee at the time, 66 years ago. However, it was decided that this would not be appropriate specifically for service in a particular command. There is no other example that I can think of, of a particular command getting a medal. That decision was made with the benefit of evidence from all interested parties at the time—something the present Committee does not have the benefit of now.

It should be clear that these brave men and women were not overlooked. They were considered at the time. In 1985, Lady Harris awarded an unofficial medal and began a campaign historically supported by the Daily Express. Both my hon. Friends have said that there is a huge body of opinion supporting this; actually, although there is a great deal of sympathy and a huge amount of respect for those who served in Bomber Command, I have not seen the evidence of a huge weight of opinion that says that we should institute a medal now.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

I wrote to the Minister on 13 August last year on this very point, and included a copy of a letter from Mr Henry Pam, who served in Bomber Command. He made the point:

“The Air Crew medal was not presented to those of us operating after the invasion of France etc. in 1944. Why?”

Many of those gentleman—and ladies perhaps, but mostly gentlemen—who served in Bomber Command are no longer alive. It seems mean-spirited not to consider what is happening to those who remain and to the families. We should grant some recognition by way of a medal.

[Mr Robathan]

I am just coming to recognition, but I point out to the hon. Lady that, if we were to institute a medal, that medal should go to every person who was killed in the second world war, or their descendants, and indeed to all those who served in the second world war. It would not only be the survivors; everyone would deserve a medal. If people were killed in the first or second world war, their campaign medals were still awarded. That is how such things are done. People who served and were killed certainly deserved their campaign medals, which were given to their descendants. That is right and proper and still happens today.

[Tessa Munt]

Were those particular gentlemen not extraordinary in their courage and bravery? As the Minister wrote in his letter to me, Mr Pam had received the 1939 to 1945 star, the France and Germany star, the defence medal and the war medal for 1939 to 1945. The peculiar situation in which Bomber Command found itself should surely be a prerequisite for handing out some sort of medal in recognition.

[Mr Robathan]

The hon. Lady is of course entitled to her opinion. Those people were incredibly brave and I in no way wish to detract from my admiration for them. My hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke referred to his son, and yet the even younger men of Bomber Command did things one can hardly believe—but then, so did those who served in Fighter Command, and they did not get a medal, and nor did those brave men and women in the Special Operations Executive who parachuted into occupied France, the majority of whom were executed when they got there. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock is saying that the people of Bomber Command were brave, and I believe that we recognise their bravery—we should do so, and we pay tribute to it—and that is what I am coming on to.

Since I became a Minister, I have been involved with the Bomber Command memorial. The Bomber Command Association is establishing a national memorial and has even cut the turf—I went to the turf-cutting ceremony in the summer. In October 2008, the Prime Minister, while in opposition, said:

“I have always believed that the 55,000 brave men of Bomber Command who lost their lives in the service of their country deserve the fullest recognition of their courage and sacrifice.”

I believe the same.

The Ministry of Defence is pleased to chair the Bomber Command memorial funding campaign, which is moving ahead with pace, and that was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock. A construction contract has been awarded and the Bomber Command memorial will be located in Green park, opposite the RAF club on Piccadilly. We are aiming at a completion date in 2012. I am actively supporting the memorial and was meant to be having a meeting in a little over an hour with Malcolm White of the Bomber Command Association. Unfortunately, we had to cancel that meeting, but I shall be meeting him shortly to discuss how to facilitate the memorial, as well as various issues that have been in the newspapers. That will be the best and most fitting memorial, which will last long after we have all gone, reminding people of the sacrifice of our forefathers.

On the medal review, in the coalition’s programme for government it set out its intention to review the rules governing the award of medals, as a part of the commitment to rebuild the military covenant. A draft review was produced to enable us to consider the various views, and we sent the draft report to the campaign groups, including the Bomber Command Association, along with an invitation to submit comments. That review has now been carried out and the closing date for responses from the campaign groups has now passed. The formal responses we received have been carefully considered, but it is worth noting that the Bomber Command Association offered no comments on the medals review. The review will be published in the not-too-distant future.

There is no doubting the bravery and sacrifice of all those involved in the thousands of sorties made by Bomber Command over occupied Europe during the second world war. They made a real difference to the outcome of the war. It is equally clear that that difference was a crucial one, recognised by the other side. Hitler’s armaments Minister, Albert Speer, who more than anyone else in Europe knew about the true effect of the bombing campaign and the ability of the Germans to maintain the war, summed it up thus:

“It made every square metre of Germany a front. For us, it was the greatest lost battle of the war.”

In a sense, there could be no more convincing testimonial.

We support the erection of a fitting memorial to those whose courage made such a critical contribution to the successful prosecution of the air campaign in the second world war. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock is right when she says that it is not too late to honour the brave men and women who took part in Bomber Command. We are honouring them next year with the erection of the memorial, which I applaud.

Question put and agreed to.

Defence Vetting Agency: Removal of Agency Status

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 11th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

As part of the programme of work associated with defence reform within the Ministry of Defence (MOD) the Defence Vetting Agency (DVA) ceased to have the status of an executive agency from 1 October 2011.

The DVA was formed in April 1997 bringing together the four National Service Vetting (NSV) organisations serving each of the armed services and the MOD. Since that date the DVA has successfully delivered NSV services to the MOD and its industry contractors, and has also provided similar services to a wide range of other Government Departments. Today it is by far the larger of the two UK Government shared service providers of NSV.

My right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Defence, announced on 22 March 2011, Official Report, columns 49-50WS, the intention to establish a new Defence Business Services (DBS) organisation, bringing together the delivery of a range of corporate service functions to support all areas of the Department from one organisation. The DBS was launched in July, and the NSV function undertaken by the DVA will be provided under a new business model renamed as DBS National Security Vetting.

This change in operating status will have no impact on the DVA’s customers, and will deliver efficiencies and wider savings to Government. In particular, it will reinforce the DVA’s ability to deliver planned business improvements from its new Cerberus IT system to drive up service to its internal and external customers.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

7. What recent discussions he has had on the medical care of wounded service personnel and veterans.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

Given the importance that the whole Government, and especially my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, place on this issue, both he and I have numerous discussions with ministerial colleagues and others across the Department, Government and the community and voluntary sector on a regular basis.

[Derek Twigg]

I thank the Minister for his answer. He will be aware of the concerns expressed by families recently about the care for seriously wounded and injured service personnel who will have to be discharged from the armed forces because of their injuries—including about their care in the NHS thereafter. What mechanisms have he and his colleagues put in place to ensure that those service personnel get the same standard of care as that provided currently by Defence Medical Services?

[Mr Robathan]

I think the hon. Gentleman and I would agree a great deal about this. We are extremely concerned about the future of many badly injured service personnel when they leave the armed forces, and that is why we have put in place a transition protocol. It is also why I often have meetings with Ministers in the Department of Health—indeed my next one is on Wednesday—to discuss how, going forward, we can better serve those who are badly injured. I beg your indulgence, Mr Speaker, but the hon. Gentleman will know of the Army recovery capability that was put in place by the previous Administration, which is similarly helping very badly injured people to go forward with their lives in future.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

The question I was about to ask was properly asked by the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg), so I shall sit down.

[Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con)]

Effective medical support is essential to any operation, so will the Minister join me in wishing 22 Field Hospital a successful forthcoming tour of Afghanistan, particularly as some 30 servicemen and women from 22 Field Hospital are in the Public Gallery watching these proceedings?

[Mr Robathan]

I certainly join my hon. Friend in wishing 22 Field Hospital a good tour. May I say to any Member of the House on either side who has seen the excellent work done by our medical personnel—both regular and reservist—out in Bastion and elsewhere that we should be very grateful to them for the hard work they do? Many reservists give up several months of their time to help our armed forces.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman has said that the Government are committed to the Army recovery capability introduced by the last Labour Government. A key element of that was the tracking of personnel in the health service once they had left the armed forces. Is that still part of the programme, and if so, when will the deadlines for implementation be met?

[Mr Robathan]

The hon. Gentleman rightly says that we are pursuing the policy of the last Government, because on this occasion it was quite right. We are indeed tracking personnel. I am afraid that this is a work in progress, but I will ensure that he receives an update when there is something to update him on.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware of the close collaboration between the Ministry of Defence and the NHS in dealing with traumatic injuries through the joint unit. Bearing in mind that the NHS does not provide the same level of care for our wounded military personnel, is there not a case for the NHS and the MOD setting up a joint unit to deal with ongoing treatment?

[Mr Robathan]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right. The question of how the transition protocol works is very important, particularly when it comes to health issues. We already have a national centre in Birmingham— the Queen Elizabeth hospital—and I was at the opening in January; it deals with trauma in particular. We are going forward with the Department of Health to ensure that proper treatment is available. We will announce a report on prosthetics shortly, because we must make proper treatment available for people who are injured in the service of their country, and who suffer throughout their lives as a result.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

8. What assessment he has made of the co-operation on training and support of British armed forces with armed forces in the middle east and north Africa; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

T3. The Royal British Legion has said that the creation of the chief coroner“is essential to improving bereaved Armed Forces families’ experience of military inquests” and that Government proposals will“fail to meet the needs of bereaved Armed Forces families.” The Secretary of State’s rant about his budget shows that he has not read the Royal British Legion’s proposals, so will he, in the quiet moments that I am sure will follow later this afternoon, take the time to explain to the Cabinet Office and the Ministry of Justice that failing to introduce a chief coroner will be a betrayal of our brave military personnel?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

As I thought had been made pretty plain earlier, this is a matter for the Ministry of Justice, not the Ministry of Defence. However, I hope that everyone in the House would agree that the important thing is that well-trained coroners do a good job in their inquests on deceased service personnel. That is what we are working to achieve, and I know that the Ministry of Justice is determined that that shall happen.

[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

T8. Members of the armed forces often have to move very quickly and with short notice, which can affect the education of their children, particular if it happens when school has already started. Will the Minister therefore congratulate the George Spencer academy in my constituency, which intends to change its policy so that priority is given to such children, especially those moving to the Chetwynd barracks, which is also in my constituency?

[Mr Robathan]

I certainly join my hon. Friend in congratulating that school. She will know that admissions codes can now allow favourable treatment for children of service personnel, and we must not forget that the Department for Education has introduced the pupil premium, which will also benefit service children. We have also put £3 million forward to assist schools that have a disproportionate number of service children when they have problems. In general, though, service children do rather better in education than other children.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

I recently visited the Brentford air cadets, squadron 342, in my constituency and was really impressed by the training that the young people are given in respect, discipline and community responsibility. What more can we do to encourage more young people to get involved in the cadets?

[Mr Robathan]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question, because I, too, absolutely support the cadet forces. They do fantastic work that is very much in tune with the Government’s policy of the national citizen service. They keep children off the streets and give them excellent training and discipline, which I think we all applaud. We also have the youth engagement review, but I will brief her on that later if she would like, because you, Mr Speaker, would stop me if I went on too long now.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

T6. The Secretary of State and I have a considerable number of constituents who work at the MOD’s Abbey Wood site in Filton. There is real uncertainty there at the moment about how many jobs will be lost, what new work will be sent there and what work will be lost. Could he give some certainty to the people working at the plant about the future of their jobs?

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

What future does the Secretary of State envisage for the Ministry of Defence police?

[Mr Robathan]

The Ministry of Defence police are, sadly, as everybody else is, touched by the strategic defence and security review because of the £38 billion black hole that we were left, but I envisage a future for the Ministry of Defence police—providing security for our service personnel and their families—and I visited them in Portsmouth dockyard only last month.

[Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)]

The future of European security will be enhanced by military capability, interoperability and co-operation; it will not be enhanced by an unnecessary duplication of military headquarters. What more can we do to convince our European colleagues that that is not a sensible proposal, particularly at a time when defence budgets are falling across the continent?

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

The Ministry of Defence has invested considerably in additional reserve forces, which are welcomed by many of us across the House. What steps might the Secretary of State be able to take to ensure that the jobs of our reservists, such as those serving in 6th Battalion The Rifles in my constituency, will be protected, especially given that 10 of them are returning from Afghanistan this week?

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend is quite right to raise that issue, and I pay tribute to those reservists who go out to Afghanistan, including those from 6 Rifles. We have the Reserve Forces Act 1996 and the Reserve Forces (Safeguard of Employment) Act 1985, both of which should protect reservists deployed on operations, but he is quite right to raise the issue, which we keep under close review.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

Ministry of Defence medical services has a good record of engagement with the carers of wounded service people, but when servicemen are transferred to the NHS system, carers are often told that, because of patient confidentiality, they cannot be engaged with and information cannot be shared. Will the Minister ensure that such continued engagement with carers takes place for service personnel, especially those with traumatic brain injury or mental health problems, once they enter the NHS?

[Mr Robathan]

The hon. Lady raises a very important issue, of which I was not aware. Practitioners in the NHS certainly should get full medical records from the military medical services. If she were able to raise some specific cases with me, I would be most interested to hear them, and I look forward to hearing from her.

[Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

The reason why so much public money has been invested in BAE technology is to protect British interests and British jobs. What steps can Ministers take to ensure that jobs at Brough and other BAE sites are retained in this country and not shipped abroad?

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)]

What further support are the Government going to give to ex-service people who belatedly discover that they have post-traumatic stress disorder?

[Mr Robathan]

The hon. Gentleman raises a very important issue, not least because PTSD can take many years—up to 16 years—to show itself. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has read the report of my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), called “Fighting Fit”, which leads a way forward.

Things are not perfect yet, but we are going forward. We are deploying additional mental health nurses across the country in NHS hospitals and we are working closely with Combat Stress to ensure that ex-service personnel get the opportunity, through both a call line and otherwise, to get treatment as necessary. It is extremely important that they get that treatment.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

Today is world homeless day. What recent progress has the Secretary of State made in reducing the number of ex-service people who find themselves homeless?

[Mr Robathan]

This looks like my afternoon.

Although there are homeless ex-service personnel, in fact their number is much less than one might expect. Analysis has shown that those ex-service personnel who are homeless very often left the forces some 20 and more years before.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

It is 3.8%.

[Mr Robathan]

I hear from the Opposition Front Bench that the figure is 3.8%, and one might expect more than that. We do work with Veterans Aid in London, among others, to ensure that the maximum support available is given to ex-service personnel who, unfortunately, find themselves homeless.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

Is the Minister aware of the campaign by the Royal British Legion Scotland to get a Ministry of Defence hospital unit based in Scotland? I understand that the tendering process for that is due to commence in 2013. Will the Minister look into the issue and try to get a better geographical spread for such units?

Defence Equipment and Support: Recruitment

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2011 Ministerial Corrections

[Anas Sarwar]

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of recruitment and retention rates for Defence Equipment and Support staff based in (a) Glasgow and (b) Bristol.

[Official Report, 6 September 2011, Vol. 532, c. 546W.]

Letter of correction from Andrew Robathan:

An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) on 6 September 2011. The original answer failed to take account of organisational changes that took place in April 2011 but which were not recorded on the departmental HR management information system until August. The data provided in the original answer covered the period August 2010 to July 2011 only.

The full answer given was as follows:

[Mr Robathan]

Defence Equipment and Support currently employs around 100 civilian staff in Glasgow and around 5,500 civilian staff at its headquarters in Bristol. The significant difference in numbers means that direct comparisons cannot readily be made. In the year to July 2011, about 2.5% of Bristol staff and about 1% of Glasgow staff left through retirement or resignation compared with around 4.5% for Defence Equipment and Support as a whole.

The restrictions on recruitment across the whole of the Ministry of Defence mean that there has only been external recruitment into critical or specialised posts. In the year to July 2011, we recruited around 150 new staff in Bristol and none in Glasgow.

The correct answer should have been:

[Mr Robathan]

As at 31 August 2011, Defence Equipment and Support employed around 200 civilian staff in Glasgow and around 6,700 civilian staff at its headquarters in Bristol. The significant difference in numbers means that direct comparisons cannot readily be made. In the year to August 2011, about 2.2% of Bristol staff and about 0.5% of Glasgow staff left through retirement or resignation compared with around 4.1% for Defence Equipment and Support as a whole.

The restrictions on recruitment across the whole of the Ministry of Defence mean that there has only been external recruitment into critical or specialised posts. In the year to August 2011, we recruited around 160 new staff in Bristol and none in Glasgow.

Central Advisory Committee on Pensions and Compensation

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 15th September 2011 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

In accordance with the Cabinet Office’s recent guidance on public bodies, which took effect from 1 April 2011, I have launched a review of the Central Advisory Committee on Pensions and Compensation (CAC). This review will examine the Committee’s functions, as well as its corporate governance procedures. The review is due to be completed later this year and I shall inform the House of its outcome.