Scotland: Director General for External Affairs
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Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Asked By
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration was given by the Cabinet Secretary to the appointment of a new civil service post of director general for external affairs by the First Minister of Scotland, and the salary of more than £200,000; and whether it is correct that the duties of the post will include preparing for the break-up of the United Kingdom.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Cabinet Office’s Senior Leadership Committee, chaired by the Cabinet Secretary, approved the appointment of a director-general of strategy and external affairs in the Scottish Government and that the post would be advertised at a starting salary of between £115,000 and £125,000 per annum. The figure of £200,000 appears nowhere in the particulars of the post, although I saw it floated in the Scottish edition of the Daily Telegraph.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I am most grateful for that Answer, but if the Cabinet Secretary believes that it is okay to spend public money on recruiting officials to work on reserved matters such as the constitution, is it okay for the nationalist Administration to use officials to work out policy on, for example, withdrawal from NATO or removing nuclear weapons from Scottish soil? Will my noble friend consider amending the Scotland Bill to put officials, Ministers and Members of the Scottish Parliament in exactly the same position as members in local government, whereby they will be liable to surcharge where they incur illegal expenditure?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
As a former Secretary of State for Scotland, the noble Lord is treading on slightly sensitive ground by comparing the Scottish Government to an English local authority. There is no statutory basis in the Scotland Act for such surcharges, but I think I hear the shape of an amendment that might be tabled to the current Scotland Bill when it reaches Committee.
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the creation of jobs such as this leads to tremendous uncertainty that is added to by the coyness of the First Minister in revealing the date for the proposed referendum on separation? That uncertainty affects Scottish businesses and other businesses that may be seeking to invest. However, it also affects Scottish families who are worried about their pensions, social security payments and jobs. Would this money not be much better spent trying to find jobs for the one in four young Scotsmen who are out of work?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, that is an extremely good political intervention that I trust will appear in the Scottish press tomorrow. The devolved Administrations work best when they work constructively with the Westminster Government. That is how government should operate. Different Governments need to work constructively together. I know that there are those who know the Scottish First Minister better than I do and think that he is a very provocative populist who likes provoking the Westminster Government. That is clearly part of what is going on.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
While acknowledging that the origin of this post was with the Cabinet Secretary, since it was announced it appears that surreptitious steps have been taken by the Permanent Secretary in the Scotland Office to go much beyond the role of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive. Will my noble friend agree to accept the advice given by the leaders of the three major parties in Parliament that Sir Gus O’Donnell should now institute an inquiry into the conduct of this role and, in particular, examine whether the purpose, as set out on the Scottish Government website, to develop Scotland’s constitutional framework, is being stretched beyond its original purpose into the dismantling of the United Kingdom’s constitution?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, again, the Scottish First Minister is highly skilled at stretching issues to the absolute outer limits of what is acceptable. This is clearly being played in Scottish politics in that way. We discussed the question of the senior civil servant in the Scottish Executive last time. I simply stress that at the end of the day the Scottish Executive are responsible to the Scottish Parliament, and through it to Scottish voters. Scottish voters want to be concerned about what is happening in the management of health, education and the Scottish economy when they look at the Scottish Government, and may not take kindly to a Scottish Government who spend too much of their time on extraneous issues.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
My Lords, did not all the machinations by the SNP make those undertakings that we were given by the Labour Government pretty hollow, when they introduced Scottish devolution, which they said would strengthen the union?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, no political system remains entirely stable for ever. There is a dynamic and a dynamism in which I have to say my own sense was that we were a very overcentralised union, both in England and as far as the other nations were concerned. We are better off with effective devolved Administrations, but it is quite clear that the current SNP Administration want to stir the pot very vigorously.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, as one of the people who strongly advocated devolution, I agree with the Minister—we are better off with it. However, unfortunately, among a lot of United Kingdom Ministers and civil servants there is an imperfect understanding of what is meant by devolution. The Minister himself spoke about Governments talking to Governments. With respect, a devolved Government are subsidiary to the United Kingdom Government. We have devolved power; we have not ceded power to them. I wonder if it would not be wise, now that we are getting rid of Sir Gus O’Donnell, to ask Jeremy Heywood to have a new look at this, to see how we can ensure that the Scottish Government do what they are set up to do. As my noble friend Lady Liddell said, look after the interests of the people of Scotland in the devolved areas, and leave it to us to deal with the reserved areas.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I have already said that. I have to say, devolved Administrations do need to look at constitutional arrangements. They also need to look at some aspects of external affairs. For example, two years ago I read a report proposing that the Government of Jersey should establish an external affairs unit to deal with the very considerable relations they have with the European Union. Clearly, the question that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, mentioned —the suggestion from the SNP that Scotland should leave NATO—would require Scottish independence first. Suggestions that that is something for which civil servants might already prepare would clearly be well outside the bounds of the envelope which the First Minister for Scotland loves to stretch so much.
Government: Commercial Lobbying of Ministers
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Lord Low of Dalston
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will set up an inquiry into the nature and extent of commercial lobbying of Ministers, outside the normal processes of Government.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Ministerial Code sets out the ways of working for Ministers. On taking office, the Prime Minister committed to the quarterly publication of Minister’s meetings with external organisations and the hospitality received. He also strengthened the code in relation to former Ministers to include a two-year ban on lobbying Government and a requirement for former Ministers, for two years after leaving office, to obtain the advice of the independent Advisory Committee On Business Appointments about any job or appointment they wish to take up, and to abide by the committee’s advice, which is made public.
Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, following the Prime Minister’s request to him to investigate the former Defence Secretary’s conduct in relation to the Ministerial Code, the Cabinet Secretary wrote in his report that more allegations had arisen,
“which will be the responsibility of others to answer”.
If the Government do not intend to set up an inquiry, how do they propose to go about getting those answers, which I am sure both Parliament and the country will be anxious to hear?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, there has been an inquiry on the Werrity affair, and I was not aware that we needed a further inquiry on it. The Government are committed to as much transparency as possible, not only in ministerial meetings—I assure the noble Lord that it relates to people as far down the food chain as me, in terms of what is required about my diary being published—but in the funding that is provided for various activities.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, I fully welcome the steps taken by the Prime Minister. Will my noble friend agree that a further move toward a register of lobbyists would be extremely useful in controlling what has become a very fast-moving interest group in the field of politics? Will he also agree that this would make an inquiry of the kind requested by the noble Lord, Lord Low, very much more straightforward?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the coalition Government are committed to introducing a statutory register of lobbyists, and will publish proposals in the form of a consultation document next month.
Lord Dykes
My Lords, to what extent in the last 12 months has the senior corporate chairmen’s group visited No. 10? Will the Minister assess its influence in those regular visits and say how many have occurred?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I do not have details on that, so I will have to write to the noble Lord about it.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, can we return to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Low, who identified that there are still matters in the Cabinet Secretary’s report that need to be answered? That is why a further inquiry is required. Will the noble Lord say why the Government will not institute such an inquiry?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Minister about whose conduct that inquiry was held has now resigned. The Government will look again at the report and see whether there are matters that need further investigation. Perhaps I may remind the noble Lord that when a statutory register of lobbyists was proposed by the Public Affairs Select Committee in 2009, the previous Government declined to accept that report and said that they preferred a voluntary register. However, to their credit, the Labour Government in their manifesto for the last election supported a statutory register.
Baroness Whitaker
When the Minister responds to the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, about the senior corporate chairmen’s group, will he include information about what representations it made to the Prime Minister about the corruption Bill?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
As regards the Bribery Bill, we will do our best to provide whatever information is available. I say to noble Lords that lobbying is a huge industry. My notes say that professional lobbying is a £2 billion industry that has a huge presence in Parliament. The Hansard Society estimates that some MPs are approached by lobbyists more than 100 times per week. I suspect that Members of this House may feel that non-commercial lobbies, too, are sometimes fairly pressing. We have had a large number of messages and letters in the past week, not only on the NHS—some of them might be considered self-interested—but on Amendment 80 to the Education Bill.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord will wish to be put right in relation to the point that he has just made. We did go for a voluntary register as a first base, but we were always prepared to legislate if necessary. It is actions undertaken on his Government's watch that have made a regulatory system needed under statute.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I look forward very much to the comments that the noble Lord and others in his party will make on the consultation document when it is published next month. Having looked at this, I say that defining a commercial lobby is not entirely easy at the edges. That is one reason why the consultation document has been delayed. I have in my notes the phrase, “If it looks like lobbying and sounds like lobbying, we think it is lobbying”—but I suspect that we need a rather clearer definition than that.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I apologise if I misunderstood what the noble Lord said a moment or two ago. He seemed to imply, in answer to an earlier supplementary question, that if a Minister resigns the Government will somehow escape scrutiny for what happened on their watch. He said: “But the Minister has now resigned”. The point made was that the Cabinet Secretary has said that since the first investigation further matters have arisen. The question we put to the Minister is: how will this now be investigated? Surely he cannot be suggesting that the former Minister will escape scrutiny.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
If there are further matters to be investigated, I assure the noble Baroness that they will be. Some of these matters are not simply of the behaviour of one Minister; they concern standards of conduct in public life.
Public Services Reform (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Modifications of Enactments) Order 2011
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Lord Wallace of Tankerness
That the draft order laid before the House on 14 July be approved.
Relevant document: 28th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 17 October.
Universal Credit
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Lord Touhig
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the proposed universal credit is included in the Treasury’s risk register of projects that are at risk of overspending, delay or failure.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, there is no specific Treasury risk register, although I know that the phrase has been used in a number of newspaper articles. The Treasury works closely with colleagues in the Cabinet Office’s Major Projects Authority to monitor the progress of major projects. The universal credit programme is on the Government’s major projects portfolio, which is a compilation of the Government’s high-risk and high-value projects. It covers approximately 200 major projects with a total value in excess of £300 billion. The Major Projects Authority has been engaged with the universal credit programme since 2010. As well as providing challenge through regular assurance reviews, it is involved at various levels of monitoring progress. The Major Projects Review Group, a body established by the previous Government in 2007, recently also considered progress with the universal credit programme.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer but I am a little surprised by it. To make universal credit work, the Government say that 80 per cent of all claims will need to be made online. At the moment, 31 per cent of the poorest families in this country have never used a computer and only 17 per cent of benefit claims are made online. On top of that, to make the IT system for the new universal credit work it will require every single employer in the United Kingdom to tell the Inland Revenue every single month how much every single employee earns in salary and pays in tax. As most government IT projects in recent times have failed, why does the Minister think that this one will succeed?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
There were several questions underneath what the noble Lord has just said. Twenty per cent of those who will come under the universal credit system are currently estimated to have access to computers. It is planned that 50 per cent should have access by 2013 and 80 per cent by 2017. I myself queried those figures when I was being briefed but I am told that of those currently claiming unemployment benefit, some 80 per cent have access to online facilities and of those claiming jobseeker’s allowance, some 60 per cent have access. I did not ask what the gender breakdown was; I suspect the answer is that more men than women have it but I remind everyone that the Government’s current digital champion, Martha Lane Fox, is working on this.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
How will people who are not computer literate and do not have computer access be able to get this information?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Government are also developing telephonic and face-to-face access. It is recognised that, even under the estimate that 80 per cent will have online access by 2017, there will remain 20 per cent who will require such telephone or face-to-face help—quite possibly, some of the older generation.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, it is important that the universal credit is a success. It is an important reform but there is a very high risk attached to it in delivering the IT infrastructure, because not only do you have to deliver three separate IT projects—one within DWP and two within HMRC—but they then have to integrate. It is a very high-risk timeline. Will the Minister reassure us that the high value that the Treasury places on this does not mean that it is blind to the risk in the timescale and that, if it needs to slow it down in order to make it a success, it will do so?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the careful mechanisms currently being put in place and operating recognise precisely that this is an extremely important programme, which is to be rolled out starting two years from now and running until 2017. I should add, as I was also asked about the novelty of some of these IT programmes, that the DWP is working to integrate roughly 60 per cent of existing IT infrastructure, which will be transferred to this programme. It is not an entirely novel programme: only 40 per cent of its IT will be novel.
Lord German
My Lords, following on from that answer, will my noble friend reassure the House that the DWP’s programme is being introduced in a gradualist way over a number of years? That will give some comfort, but what matters is getting the data into the DWP—the tube of data which comes from every company and through the HMRC. Will my noble friend also reassure the House that that tube will be open, finished and working on time, and that he will tell the House in advance if there was any danger regarding that?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I am not entirely sure what an open tube looks like but the DWP is of course working closely with HMRC. As noble Lords are well aware, the integration of HMRC systems with those of the DWP is an important part of this programme. We are all conscious that previous programmes, particularly on tax credits, have run into a very considerable number of problems about both underpayment and overpayment, and about underclaiming. It is intended that one of the great benefits of the universal credit system will be that a much higher percentage of claimants will claim and receive their entitlements.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top
Will the Minister tell us whether the Government have published the consultants’ report on the feasibility of the IT project in the DWP and, if not, will they do so while the Committee is sitting in this House on the Bill?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, many noble Lords will be aware that the MPA starting gate report was passed to the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons and placed in the House of Commons Library. It was not specifically intended to be open for full publication, but one of the Members of the PAC passed it on to the Telegraph, which, I suspect, is part of the origin of this Question.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, will my noble friend remind our noble friend the Minister in charge of the Bill, who is sitting next to him, that at Second Reading he promised four of us, two of whom have already asked questions, that he would give a presentation on the computer arrangements at some time in the reasonably near future?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My noble friend tells me that this will take place in early November and that he will give a date very shortly.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, the Minister did not really answer the question from my noble friend Lady Armstrong of Hill Top. My noble friend asked whether the Committee would have access to the very important report from KPMG but the noble Lord did not answer that point.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, as the noble Baroness may not have been able to see, I can tell her that this is under active consideration among Ministers at this very moment.
Public Services: Security of Provision
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Lord Haskel
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that companies providing public services are financially secure.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, it is the responsibility of the relevant contracting authority to take appropriate steps to ensure that companies providing public services are financially secure, initially when selecting suppliers and then on an ongoing basis through contract management and supplier relationship management. For each of the major suppliers to government, we have appointed a Crown representative responsible for managing the relationship with that supplier.
Lord Haskel
My Lords, I find that response a little worrying, because we all depend on public services. Does the Minister agree that, at this time of volatile markets and financial difficulties, the services that we get from these companies are at risk from too much debt, from hidden debt and from hit-and-run investors who try to take over these companies? Are the Government taking any extra precautions in these circumstances, because, at the end of the day, it is we the taxpayers who have to clear up the mess?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, one cannot entirely eliminate financial risk either from private or public sector providers so long as public sector providers have a degree of financial and accounting autonomy. We have seen that in a number of public sector cases as well as in private sector cases. The Government are taking considerable care in contracting to ensure that we look at the financial viability of all suppliers and, in particular, do our best to encourage small and medium enterprises and social enterprises to be able to bid for public service contracts. That takes rather more sophistication than dealing simply with major suppliers.
Baroness Eaton
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the best ways of helping businesses, particularly small and medium enterprises, is to scrap complex and unnecessary central prescription around the commissioning process? Will he detail what the Government are doing to simplify the systems that businesses have struggled with for so many years?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I understand that one of the problems particularly for smaller companies and social enterprises bidding for public sector contracts was the prequalification questionnaire, a document which might have been somewhere between 50 and 300 pages long and led to some smaller enterprises simply deciding not to bid. We have now scrapped that and made a much simpler and shorter alternative. We are adjusting the way in which the many hundreds of contracting authorities within the public sector deal with those with whom they operate, but I underline that we are concerned as far as possible to assist mutuals, social enterprises and small companies in playing their role in providing public services wherever possible.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I am not fully briefed on the exact details of my honourable friend Paul Burstow’s diary. We have of course been concerned with ensuring that the services provided by Southern Cross should be maintained. There have been various negotiations. Southern Cross confirmed in an announcement to the Stock Exchange on 27 September that it had reached agreement with its principal landlords and that it would transfer the group’s care home leases to its landlords and the related business and assets for the operations of those homes to its landlords or alternative care providers.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, does not Southern Cross illustrate that it is not only small and medium sized companies that need to be watched? Is there a continuing process in respect of the larger companies that are providing comparable public services?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, one or two of the providers of public services in the private sector are now among the largest companies in Britain and the world. Noble Lords who read the financial pages may know that G4S has just taken over another major multinational company. Liberata, a back-office outsourcing firm, nearly went bankrupt in 2008, partly because of its pensions liability, and had to be restructured. It is now partly owned by its employees and partly owned by the Pension Protection Fund. The Government, as with all others in such circumstances, do get engaged in trying to re-establish companies in difficulty that are playing a valuable role.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, given the sorry example of Southern Cross and the burgeoning outsourcing of public services, which is estimated to go from £80 billion to £140 billion by 2014, is there not a case for the utmost transparency on the part of the Government through extending freedom of information to private companies undertaking public services so that they can catch the failed business model, which they did not do in the case of Southern Cross?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I have to repeat: one cannot entirely eliminate financial risk from activities which take place either in the private or the financial sector. We all know that cases of mismanagement have taken place in schools, hospitals and other areas in the public and private sector. The Government have established a new major projects authority within the Cabinet Office and a group of strategic suppliers. They are working extremely hard to ensure that as much transparency as possible can be provided. However, if the noble Lord thinks that there is insufficient transparency, I encourage him to return to this issue on future occasions.
Arrangement of Business
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Question for Short Debate standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Lexden is now the last business for today. We have reached today’s target amendment for consideration on the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill and have adjourned the same until Wednesday next week. The consequence for those taking part in the QSD is as follows: speaking times for my noble friends Lord Lexden and Lord Shutt remain unaltered, but the speaking time for all other Peers taking part in the debate is now increased from six minutes to a maximum of 10 minutes.
India
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, for initiating this debate. He said, among other things, in his opening remarks that “only when we seek active engagement with India” will we gain the right to criticise Indian policy. This Government is seeking active engagement with India. That is why the Prime Minister and a very large number of Ministers went out to India this time last year, and that is why we have a continuing programme of visits. We hope to have a bilateral summit very shortly, on a date which is yet to be agreed. It is a major and continuing project. So it is not a question of “only when”—we are attempting to do so.
There are some obstacles—perhaps on both sides. We have to engage with the Indians and we must recognise that in pursuing an enhanced partnership we have a great many competitors. Much has been said in intervening speeches about the decline in the number of Indian students coming to the United Kingdom. Indians have been going to the United States. The United States is the most popular foreign country within India and that is part of what we now have to compete with. As the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, and others know, this is in sharp contrast to the flow of Chinese students to Britain, which has continued to rise and is at a far higher level. It will take a good deal of time and effort to catch up to where we would like to be across a very broad number of spectrums. We have to attract the attention of the Indian elite and of the rising young Indian middle classes—the rising young Indian educated generation. We have to have a broad effort at trade and investment on both sides and further develop relations in the fields of climate change, defence and as an aid partnership.
Having such an excellent Indian diaspora here is a tremendous asset. As the flow of investment in both directions shows, this is already helping to develop closer links, in addition to the historical cultural relationship with India. We are all conscious that we have to build on this. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, castigated the populist policies of the coalition Government on migration. As someone who does his politics in Yorkshire, I am very conscious that it is very often our settled ethnic communities who are themselves strongly supportive of tougher rules on immigration. This is not an easy subject. I often find myself talking to people whose parents or grandparents came from south Asia and who want to know when we are going to stop more people coming in. I have a vivid memory of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and myself talking at the Hindu Cultural Centre in Bradford in the last election but one. The second question we had from the floor was: when are we going to stop more of these foreigners coming in? The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, understands that there are many difficulties in making a simple answer to the problems of immigration.
Noble Lords have already remarked that India is by now the third largest foreign investor in the UK. I believe the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, claimed that it is now the second largest. The UK is the fourth largest investor in India. We are attempting to encourage a rising flow in both directions. The enhanced partnership is, I stress, a partnership and it has to be a partnership of equals. We have to get rid of any sense that this is an ex-colonial relationship. As you will all know, the continued existence of the aid relationship with India has become a matter of some controversy in the right-wing press in Britain. It is our intention to move from an aid relationship concentrating on the four poorest states in India where—as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, has remarked—there are still a great many extremely poor people, into a partnership with an Indian government which now has its own steadily increasing aid programme, so that we can share our experience in Africa and elsewhere with the Indians as they come in. That is a pattern which we see ourselves using across the board.
The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, has, to my great pleasure, mentioned that we already have a very useful partnership with Indian scientists and others in climate change and that has been invaluable in getting the global debate on climate change under way—not as the white countries telling others what to do, but as a shared concern about long-term environmental degradation.
The defence partnership is, at the moment, less developed than we would like it to be, although we find ourselves sharing the anti-piracy patrol with Indian ships off Somalia in the Indian Ocean. The Indians are now the largest single contributor to UN peacekeeping forces, so as a country which expects that its forces are most likely to be engaged in helping to reconstruct failed states—post-conflict reconstruction—we will very often find ourselves alongside forces from south Asia. We already have a number of officer exchanges on both sides, and again there are traditions on which to build. I was astonished and delighted to find myself at the National Defence College in Pune, sitting next to an Indian general who told me that his regiment was called Skinner’s Horse. I did not know they still had regiments like that in the Indian Army. We see ourselves moving towards future joint training, and I hope also to greater celebration of the past. That is because our young generation in this country, including the children of Asian immigrants, have forgotten that the largest single Commonwealth contingent in the Second World War came from the Asian sub-continent in the form of the Indian Army.
Many noble Lords have talked about the importance of universities and education. Already much effort is being made. The second tranche of the UK-India Education and Research Initiative is under way. Research Councils UK is working to improve collaboration at the highest levels, and I know that the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, knows what the British Academy is doing in this regard. I regret that student flows are not larger. My former university, the London School of Economics, has developed a number of joint degrees with Chinese universities, but it has been much more difficult to get into partnerships with Indian universities. We need to move further on this. We hope very much that the Indian Government will now complete the passage of the law which would allow foreign universities to set up campuses on the Indian sub-continent. It is a way of trying to increase the two-way flow, and I should mention that the Department for Education and others are hoping to encourage more British students to study at Indian universities. After all, India has some top quality universities. I can speak with some feeling on this since some years ago my son led the British “University Challenge” team that played the winner of the Indian equivalent and was soundly beaten in Delhi.
On visas, I have already mentioned that the situation is extremely complex and we are faced with a British population which has a range of contradictory pressures. However, we are aware of Indian concerns and are doing our best to meet them. On economic relations, many noble Lords have remarked that there is a great deal of good news on the way, but we need the Indians to open their market for services. The United Kingdom is above all a service exporter. Insurance, banking, legal expertise and accountancy are areas where we have the strength to compete much more effectively in the Indian market. We see the EU-India free trade area, which is still under negotiation and we hope will be completed in the next few months, as a major step forward.
I should like to end where I began by saying that the strength of the UK-Indian relationship lies in our historical ties and in the personal ties which the largest diaspora community in this country provides. It is economically successful in this country and the loyal links that people still have with India help to build economic ties in everything from the brewing industry to the pharmaceutical industry. We look to that as one of the many strengths we can pursue further in building a stronger relationship. Again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, for allowing us to return to this subject, and I hope that we will consider it again soon.
Scotland: Civil Service
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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what responsibility the Cabinet Secretary has for the work of the civil service in Scotland.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Cabinet Secretary is also the head of the UK Civil Service, including those parts supporting the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I thank the noble Lord for that clarification. Is the Minister aware that the Conservative, Liberal Democrat and Labour leaders in the Scottish Parliament have all made official protests over Sir Peter Housden, the Scottish Permanent Secretary, advising the SNP Government on tactics and policy in relation to the break-up of the United Kingdom? Surely it is the responsibility of Sir Gus O’Donnell to say to Sir Peter Housden that he should be advising the SNP Government only on devolved areas and not on matters which are reserved to this Parliament, particularly those which are politically sensitive.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I should of course declare a family interest. A relative of mine campaigned actively for Scottish independence and was executed by the English. I do not think that it is appropriate for a Minister to comment on the behaviour of a senior civil servant. I have read the Scottish press for the past week and I am well aware that the leaders of the three opposition parties in Scotland have written to the Cabinet Secretary. I will ensure that a copy of his reply, when it is ready, is placed in the Library of the House.
Lord Lang of Monkton
My Lords, is it not one of the strengths of the United Kingdom Civil Service that it is a United Kingdom body? In the past, great advantage has arisen for both sides when Scottish civil servants have served in United Kingdom departments and vice versa. Will my noble friend ensure that he makes every possible effort to prevent any diminution of this historic trend which might undermine the union?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, there are civil servants in Scotland working for the UK Government as well as civil servants in Scotland working for the Scottish Executive. This is a single Civil Service and there is extensive interchange. Indeed, the Permanent Secretary in Scotland about whom these complaints have been made has worked for a number of other institutions within the UK. Perhaps I might read the relevant parts of the Scottish version of the Civil Service Code, which was first issued in 2006. I shall quote from the 2010 version. It states:
“As a civil servant, you are accountable to Scottish Ministers, who in turn are accountable to the Scottish Parliament”.
A footnote adds:
“Civil servants advising Ministers should be aware of the constitutional significance of the Scottish Parliament and of the conventions governing the relationship between the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive”.
Perhaps I may add that the next paragraph states that,
“‘impartiality’ is acting solely according to the merits of the case and serving equally well Governments of different political persuasions”.
Lord Sewel
To go a little further on this, generally, would it be proper for any Permanent Secretary at the Scottish Executive to give policy development advice to Scottish Ministers on constitutional matters when the constitution is clearly and explicitly a reserved matter? Secondly, is it proper for the Permanent Secretary of the Scottish Executive to make clear in public his personal views on a matter of controversial policy?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, on the second of those two questions, my understanding is that this was an internal blog. Noble Lords will have their views on the advisability of blogging. It was leaked to the Scottish edition of the Daily Telegraph. There might be a certain lack of wisdom there.
On the first question, once we have a devolved Government, although constitutional matters are reserved to the UK Government they are bound to be discussed within the Scottish Government. How far civil servants should offer advice is an important question. There is also a director-general for constitutional reform in the Cabinet Office.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that, just as it is the duty of the rest of the Civil Service to support the policies of the Administration that it serves, so it is the duty of the civil servants in Scotland to advise on the policies of the Scottish Executive?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I entirely agree with that. It is important that the Civil Service working for the Scottish Government commands the confidence of Scottish Ministers of the day, regardless of their political complexion, just as it is for civil servants in Whitehall working for the UK Government.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I recall being given a wigging by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, when he was Cabinet Secretary and I was Secretary of State for Scotland, for issuing an official press release from the Scottish Office in which I used the term “tartan tax”. Although my Permanent Secretary approved it, the then Cabinet Secretary told me that it was inappropriate for a Scottish Office press release to contain something that might be politically contentious. I accepted that advice: he was quite right and I was in the wrong. So what on earth is going on when the Permanent Secretary for the Scottish Executive circulates what is described as an internal blog—a newsletter—to civil servants in the Scottish Office, which, among other things, advised going to see a play about an army of occupation in 11th-century Scotland which he said,
“does genuinely speak to our present condition as a nation”?
What on earth are this Government doing in standing aside? Surely it is the absolute duty of the Cabinet Secretary to maintain the impartiality of the Civil Service, which is a centrepiece of our constitution.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the noble Lord will recall that on an earlier occasion the SNP strongly recommended that the population of Scotland go and see that dreadful film “Braveheart”, one of the most historically inaccurate films that I am aware of.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, the Minister says that he should not criticise civil servants’ actions or behaviour. Why is that the case when the Permanent Secretary crosses a line that he should not? Will the Minister ensure that the Cabinet Secretary writes a letter to him, which is then placed in the House of Commons Library so that we can ensure that the proper constitutional arrangements are maintained in this country?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I have already said that the Cabinet Secretary will write a letter in response to the three opposition leaders in Scotland. As the noble Lord knows well from the press, the Cabinet Secretary has already visited Edinburgh and a copy of the letter to those opposition leaders will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
Lord Stephen
My Lords, I first thank the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for raising this important and controversial issue. Is the Minister aware that most people in Scotland would far rather that senior civil servants, particularly such highly paid ones, spent their time improving the education system, health service and transport networks in Scotland, than pandering to the party political objectives of our First Minister? This is a serious issue. The core issue should not be the independence of Scotland but the independence, neutrality and objectivity of our civil service. When that is struck at, as has clearly happened in this instance, it is very worrying not just for Scotland but for all parts of the United Kingdom.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I hesitate to get too embroiled in current political arguments in Scotland. The coalition Government do not agree with the SNP Administration on Scotland’s future but they are an elected Administration with a policy programme that their Ministers wish to pursue. In delivering that programme for Ministers, all civil servants must comply with the appropriate ministerial code.
Lord Soley
Does the Minister accept that there is a need for a policy on the United Kingdom? Many of us in this House are concerned that no one is speaking up for the advantages of keeping the United Kingdom united. If we are not careful, the arguments for splintering, dividing and breaking away will get very strong. The Government need a policy that advances the arguments in favour of keeping the United Kingdom united. Let us put our heads above the parapet and defend it.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I entirely agree with that. This Question, however, was about the division between what is political and what is administrative; what it is appropriate for the Civil Service to do and what it is appropriate for politicians to do. I am a strong supporter of the union myself, although I am not a unionist fundamentalist, as the Scottish newspapers are apparently alleging some are. We are finding a new balance between the devolved Administrations and the London Administration. It is very important that we all engage in the active debate on what that balance should be, but that is a political activity.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
Would the Minister accept the principle that it is extremely desirable that civil servants should remain impartial, especially in the context of a referendum on whether the United Kingdom should or should not remain in existence? Is it not extremely important that individual civil servants should be like Caesar’s wife—above suspicion?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I am never sure about Caesar’s wife. One of the things I have learned in government is that special advisers—political advisers—are a very useful way of maintaining the distinction between what is political and what is impartial Civil Service advice. That is a distinction that I think everyone here—and, I hope, everyone in Edinburgh—wishes to maintain.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
This is asking the wrong question. The question is not whether there should or should not be a political debate. We are all agreed on that. The problem is that of civil servants entering that political debate. That should not happen, ever. The Minister should make that absolutely clear.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I entirely agree with that. Discussions are under way to ensure that the Civil Service remains impartial.
Social Enterprise
Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for the immensely valuable and expert contributions to this debate, including the speech we have just had from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, who has reminded us that there is a great deal of continuity between what this Government are determined to do and what their predecessor was determined to do and in the obstacles faced by the last Government and this Government.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, for the debate and remind her that I was happy to show her around Saltaire last summer. I often think that Saltaire is in many ways an easy and ideal community, not only because is it a very beautiful village in which the Guardian outsells every other newspaper, and partly for that reason atypical, but because it is full of self-motivated people interested in public service naturally taking part in local activities. I only wish that was common across the whole country. Part of the problem that we face, in answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, is that we do not have, across the entire country, the same level of motivation or willingness to participate in local public community life that we want to generate. That is part of what this Government are now attempting to do.
We support social enterprises because these are now integral to a more active, fairer and more prosperous society. We see social enterprises as ways of supporting citizens in communities to take more power into their hands and to build what the Prime Minister calls the big society—a more engaged and less passive society. Social enterprises are also an important part of a business community that contributes to our economic prosperity. I take the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, about how one defines the extent of this large and rather amorphous area, but the estimate that the social enterprises employ 800,000 people and generate 1.5 per cent of GDP is a fair rough estimate that suggests, as we expand this sector, how very useful it can be.
We are supporting social enterprises as far as we can across the whole of government, from pushing through mainstream reforms to recognising the potential of social enterprises, by making it easier to start up and run social enterprises by leveraging resources, by increasing the opportunities and support to help social enterprises grow and by promoting social enterprises in the public sector and beyond. We all recognise how large a task this is and we also recognise how diverse a sector we are talking about.
Some of us have been talking about community assets—local shops, pubs, community halls and grounds. I can think of at least two Members in this Chamber whom I know well who are involved in the setting up and management of community shops. I am very sorry that the noble Lords, Lord Morris of Handsworth and Lord Jay of Ewelme, are not here to take part in this debate today. I have enjoyed talking with them about how they have got involved in regenerating that sort of local community asset. We are also talking more about community interest companies and non-profit organisations which are providing employment and socially valued services. I am familiar with the Cellar project in Shipley, which helps to provide a route back to employment for people who have suffered mental health problems and, in the process, generates a certain amount of income for itself and gives people confidence back in their ability to work.
We are also talking about mutual providers of public services. I have spent some time during the past year with an excellent charity in Yorkshire, Together Women, which has been dealing with first-time women offenders and has had enormous success in reducing the rate of reoffending among women. However, it is dependent on grants from central government and has not yet been able to move, because central government is not doing it yet, into the social interest bonds where it can say, “We are saving you money, so let’s have a different sort of contract from being dependent on central government grants”
We recognise the enormous obstacles that we are facing. Many of our citizens are still very passive. They talk about their rights; they expect services to be provided; but they do not understand that they need to take a much larger part in providing those services among themselves—sometimes preferring to complain rather than to share public responsibility. The government documents that I have been reading as I have read myself into my new responsibilities talk a great deal about encouraging a widening of neighbourhood councils. I am conscious that neighbourhood councils are not easy to set up in some of our cities and in a number of our smaller towns. Regenerating the self-confidence and self reliance of local communities is itself a long-term project. The previous Government did some work in that area; we are continuing it. It is a long-term task.
We are talking about a wider attitude change towards public life, public responsibilities and public engagement in self-government at the local level. Having said that, we are also talking about a broader attitude change. Central government, as a number of people have remarked, often resists the idea that you can really trust local people to run things in their own way. The national media lumps the term postcode lottery on anything that appears a little odd, a little more diverse. Business, especially in the financial sector, should not simply be thinking about its responsibilities to shareholders on a quarterly and annual basis. They should also be thinking about people in local authorities and citizens.
The noble Lord, Lord Wei, and others, have talked about the problems of commissioning. The assumptions underlying commissioning showed that there are real problems with people in central government not yet having thought through what sort of different approach we need.
Increasing investment under the big society capital approach is part of how we are attempting to change the way in which the sector is funded and to transform its relationship with government and public services. The Big Society Capital Group will be an independent financial institution that aims to increase investment in social enterprises. It will do that by supporting organisations that invest in the sector and will be a champion for social investment with policy-makers, investors and stakeholders in the sector and the public at large.
Of course, this is not the ideal time or circumstance in which to encourage new enterprises to grow, so provision of diverse sources of funding is extremely important to all of us. The national survey of charities and social enterprises last year showed that just over one-third of those charities and social enterprises surveyed received some form of funding from central government. So this is not a universal problem for the sector. Community foundations have been mentioned and other sources of funding are also important. Too much dependence on the state and on the central budget has not been good for the voluntary sector. Our aim is to reduce that over the long term, to move towards local contracts and contracts for services provided, and as far as possible, to foster self-generating and self-funding activities where appropriate.
We thoroughly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, that business is generally a force for good, but there are issues when one is also looking for a culture change. I am conscious that in the pub sector, for example, the role of the pub companies and of some venture capital trusts has been very much to damage the provision of the availability of community assets for local communities and indeed, to attempt to buy up small breweries for their property assets and then close them.
I am happy to say that my pension fund, the University Superannuation Scheme, is actively taking part in seeing how far pensions can provide social enterprise funds. We all need to be thinking about that sort of thing, or those of us who are a little involved in what our pensions should be doing. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about other forms of providing financial social capital, so to speak. We want to encourage closer co-operation between business and social enterprises and between business and the whole voluntary non-profit sector.
The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, talked about the barriers to entry. That again is an area that we need to keep pushing to ensure that central government does not go for the easy aim. Nearly 300 welfare-to-work contracts have been awarded to voluntary sector providers. Of those 300, two have been large-scale contractors, and the other 289 are subcontractors. So we have been making some progress in this regard.
On the question of red tape we are also moving ahead. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, has made some 17 regulations in his report, some of which we can do something about. The Association of British Insurers has now moved on the question of ensuring that volunteers do not have to pay more for their car insurance if they are using their car to assist in voluntary activities. That is a useful, small but important step forward. The Payments Council has similarly announced that cheques will now be retained for as long as they are needed. There are a number of small things like that that can make a difference to local enterprise activities.
On the social impact bonds experimentation in Peterborough, the Government intend to build on that with four more pilot social impact bonds that aim to help troubled families in four local areas. We are moving forward on that and it is seen as a success. We are therefore pushing forward on a range of different fronts: social investment; the new big society capital enterprise; and other means of support for this very important sector. It will take some time and means a whole range of changes at different levels. The most important level is to get more back down to the local level, to get more local engagement. Social enterprises, the Government believe, are vital in their contribution not only to economic growth and employment but to a fully participating society.
We have made our support for social enterprises a key element of different parts of this Government’s programme and we have a strong package of market and individual enterprise-level policies that we hope will help social enterprises to start up and grow. I finish by again thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, and to say that we all need to keep pushing on this. We all recognise the cultural and mindset obstacles that we face at all levels of government: the economy, business and ordinary people themselves.
Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting
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Lord Kennedy of Southwark
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made concerning the holding of the 2013 Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Sri Lanka.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in 2009 decided that Sri Lanka should host in 2013. We, together with other Commonwealth members, urge Sri Lanka, as host, to demonstrate its commitment to upholding the Commonwealth values of human rights, good governance and the rule of law. A key part of that will be to address long-standing issues about accountability and reconciliation after the recent conflict. We have made that clear, and we expect to see progress by the end of the year.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
I thank the noble Lord for his response. Given the devastating UN report on the final days of the war which has been submitted to the Human Rights Council of the UN, alleging that war crimes were committed, does he accept that the British Government should go to Perth and state clearly that, until those matters are looked into properly and investigated independently, it would be wrong for Sri Lanka to host the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in 2013?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I am aware that the Canadian Prime Minister has been reported as saying that Canada will not go. I have looked carefully at what he said, and he actually said that if there was not an improvement, it was unlikely that he would go. We all have to be concerned that at this stage with doing everything we can to ensure that the process of reconciliation within Sri Lanka continues to move forward.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would do a lot of good for the Commonwealth Heads of Government to meet in Sri Lanka, particularly when countries such as Britain and South Africa have a lot to offer when there are serious allegations of excesses during a war? Should we not recommend the peace process in Northern Ireland or the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa as a means of bringing peace to that troubled island?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
We are all aware that some atrocities were committed on both sides during the conflict in Sri Lanka, and it would be extremely good to have an independent investigation of them. The Sri Lankan Government have set up their own investigation into this—I forget its full name—although there are some doubts about how independent it is. We continue to press for a thorough and independent investigation.