Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Second sitting)

Mark Francois Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Q56 Abby, could you introduce yourself for the record, please?

Abby Dryden: Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Abby Dryden. I am the chief executive of the Defence Medical Welfare Service.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

Q Thank you for joining us this afternoon, Ms Dryden. We have asked a number of other witnesses who appeared before us this morning a similar question: could you give us your overview of the Bill from the DMWS perspective and tell us what advantages you think it might provide for service personnel and their families? Do you think there are any weaknesses in the Bill that could be improved when we debate it on Thursday? It is a very open question.

Abby Dryden: I have had time to consider the Library paper and look at the Bill, and the position of my organisation, DMWS, is that if there is anything the commissioner could add to the positive experience individuals have of military service, we are supportive of that. We do not really maintain a position on existing service provision; we are quite neutral in our view in general. Our main interest is welfare delivery for service personnel in secondary care settings. If the commissioner was able to support some of the issues we identify and create a situation where armed forces personnel felt better supported, or there was increased or enhanced support for them in those settings, we would be supportive. Beyond that, I do not think we have a particular view one way or the other on the Bill itself.

[Mr Francois]

Q Following on from your answer, how do you think armed forces personnel and their families need to be better supported than they are at present?

Abby Dryden: Since 2018, we have collected detailed evidence on the experience that armed forces personnel have while they are in secondary care settings. We normally monitor the themes and trends that are identified by the people we work closely with. We identify about 10 trends each year, and we look at how we, as an organisation, and our funders can better understand how military personnel can be supported. In terms of the trends that we have identified, we usually find topics such as receiving care that is understanding of the unique position that armed forces personnel can find themselves in, the settings in which they receive care, and understanding that it is a highly mobile population.

We often deal with people who have complex family arrangements or children with special educational needs, for example, and military personnel who are quite badly injured. In those circumstances, it is important to understand that service life is a hugely positive experience for many people, but there are certain times when an enhanced service provision would be beneficial. That could be when admissions to hospital take place or when there is an increased pressure on the family as a whole. In terms of understanding how armed forces personnel could be better supported, that would be very useful. What would also be useful for armed forces personnel is an understanding that creating a positive narrative—or mentioning some of the positives of service life—is important, as much as it is important to identify the negatives.

[Mr Francois]

Q You mentioned special educational needs. Historically, it has been an issue that a service family may sometimes have to work for several years to get a statement for an SEN child. We now call it an education, health and care plan, but it was a statement in old money. It might take a family two years to get that from their local education authority. As an example, let us say it is the Wiltshire LEA if they are based at Tidworth. However, if they are then posted to Catterick, they have to go back to square one—or they did have to—in order to start that whole very painful journey again.

We are all constituency MPs here, so we all know how difficult it can be. It is not a partisan point at all. Has there been any progress on that issue at all over the past couple of years, and if not, is it an issue that we should raise on Thursday?

Abby Dryden: I think progress has been made, but there is a need for awareness of the fact that we are dealing with a highly mobile population, which is restricted by procedural requirements. Again, it is probably similar to some of the issues that we deal with in relation to care and treatment for certain medical conditions, which might be at the top of lists, then fall down to the bottom again when families change location. I would say that yes, generally, progress has been made in a moderate fashion. However, a lot of the time, there is nothing that helps people dealing with different bodies, such as NHS trusts or local authorities, which should be talking to one another in a meaningful way and identifying that progress has been made in one area—for example, that an achievement of a special educational needs status has been identified—and porting it over to another area. There is progress to be made.

In our organisation, the welfare officers work predominantly with serving personnel, and a big part of what they do is maintaining the momentum for the family and their progress through systems and processes, in both NHS and educational settings.

[Mr Francois]

One of the fundamental principles of the armed forces covenant is that there should be no disadvantage as a result of service.

Abby Dryden: Yes, absolutely.

[Mr Francois]

If you are saying that the situation has got a bit better, that is encouraging, but I think you are also implying that there is more work to be done. We might want to explore that on Thursday under the “General service welfare” part of the Bill.

[Michelle Scrogham (Barrow and Furness) (Lab)]

Q Do you have any concerns about the transition from the ombudsman to the new commissioner?

Abby Dryden: I do not have any specific concerns about that. I would generally have concerns about any change in process, as the shortcomings of a process can sometimes be identified quite easily, but it can be quite difficult to create something in its place that functions effectively from the start. I would just be concerned about the transition, but I would not have any specific concerns.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Okay. I am sure that has covered you. For the record, could all the witnesses please introduce themselves?

Col. Darren Doherty: I am Darren Doherty. I am the director of grants and welfare at the Army Benevolent Fund and am representing the Army Benevolent Fund here today. I am a former—well, I have to keep checking myself. I am not a former Army officer; I am still an Army officer. I have just completed 38 years of regular service with the Army and I was reminded just last Friday that I have a reserve liability for the next few years, so I am still part of that organisation as well. I have been in this role with the Army Benevolent Fund since 1 November.

Mandy Harding: Good afternoon. My name is Mandy Harding, and I am head of commissioned grants at the Royal Navy and Royal Marines Charity.

Air Commodore Simon Harper: Good afternoon, everyone. I am Simon Harper. I am director of grants, services and programmes for the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund and have been since March 2023; I am effectively responsible for the charitable output of the benevolent fund. Prior to that, I served for 34 years in the Royal Air Force and for two years before that in the Royal Navy.

[Mr Francois]

Q Colonel Doherty, in fairness to you, we should put it on the record that, in the military, liability has a different meaning from the one that it has in general English language usage. Thank you for your service. The first issue is just a branding point. A while back the Army Benevolent Fund had a bit of a rebrand as the Soldiers’ Charity, I think. Where are you on that?

Col. Darren Doherty: We have rebranded now. The old terminology of ABF The Soldiers’ Charity was what we used for a number of years until last year. We have rebranded again, at a very low cost. It did not cost us very much. We did not go through any hugely expensive marketing routine to do it, but we are now the Army Benevolent Fund.

[Mr Francois]

Q You have gone back to the status quo ante.

Col. Darren Doherty: That is correct.

[Mr Francois]

Q You mentioned that you have 38 years of service, so you would be perfectly human to be thinking about pensions. There is very little reference to pensions in the Bill, but you could argue that if you are looking at issues of general service welfare, what happens to a service person’s pension is very important to them and their family. Do you think it a weakness in the Bill that it does not say much specifically about pensions? Would you like to see that specifically included?

Col. Darren Doherty: It is not an area of expertise for me. I think the provision of pensions and advice on pensions—this is from my personal experience of having just gone through it—is adequate, with the support of great institutions such as the Forces Pension Society as an additional advising actor. I am not sure that it is something that would require specifically laying out in the Bill. That is my own opinion.

[Mr Francois]

Q Thank you. I think we all know that the Forces Pension Society is the Office for Budget Responsibility, if you like, of all military pensions issues, but as it is not here this afternoon, so forgive the question to you.

Can we switch to the Royal Air Force, please? Air Commodore Harper, you are probably too young to remember, sir, but in the cold war there was what was called the tactical evaluation process, or TACEVAL. It was a bit like a military Ofsted, and a team could turn up at an airbase—for example, RAF Brüggen in West Germany—say that world war three had just broken out and basically put the station through its paces for several days, and they would get an Ofsted-like score at the end.

It is not quite as severe as that, but the Armed Forces Commissioner has an Ofsted-like capability under the Bill to turn up unannounced, certainly within the UK; it is more complicated if it is abroad. Do you think that that power will be valuable in holding people to account and concentrating minds, and how often do you think the commissioner should use it?

Air Commodore Simon Harper: I am old enough to recall TACEVAL, sir, and was part of that way back in the late 1980s.

[Mr Francois]

I was trying to be nice.

Air Commodore Simon Harper: You are very kind, but I remember it as Ofsted-like. When I was a commanding officer, I remember Ofsted visiting my unit, which was a training unit as well. I will phrase my answer in that respect. I found those inspections to the chain of command hugely beneficial on two grounds: they provided an independent view of the operational output of a given unit, and they allowed me to ensure, with confidence, that I had the appropriate processes and policies in place to deliver my output.

I have not been close to the Air Force in a regular sense for 18 months, but I guess the challenge would be how that is defined either in the Bill or in the roles and responsibilities of the commissioner—what output are you looking for from a particular unit, and what is it you are checking? The Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund will not have a particular view, but my personal view is that, if properly configured, it would be of value to commanding officers. I have no specific view on timescale, but once every 18 months would be the absolute maximum for me, based on my own personal experience in a training establishment.

[Mr Francois]

Q Some of your colleagues down the years have told me that knowing the TACEVAL team could turn up at almost any moment very much concentrated minds. It kept people sharp, is how one person put it to me. It is a slightly different situation here, but most people seem to think it is good to have those powers in the Bill.

We will move to the Royal Navy—apologies for leaving the senior service until last, Ms Harding. On the housing side, in my experience all three services tend to treat service housing slightly differently. From memory, quite a lot of service personnel live off base and tend to commute to their place of work. Quite a few of them actually buy a property rather than live in a quarter. Obviously, housing is one issue that the commissioner will look at. Are you happy that the powers in the Bill are sufficient for the commissioner to investigate that issue? I am thinking particularly about the ability to produce thematic reports, and housing is an obvious issue for an early report. Do you have a particular view on that?

Mandy Harding: From what I have read of the Bill, my understanding is that the Armed Forces Commissioner will have the power to investigate and look at issues that are arising. In our charity’s line of work, we come into contact with beneficiaries and we get reports in through the partners and organisations that we fund. In direct work with the people we have been supporting, particularly on neurodiversity and special educational needs and disabilities, housing does crop up.

That is the exciting part of having an Armed Forces Commissioner—somebody who can hear from different areas and connect the dots to realise what is happening in different places. There is an oversight role there. That is incredibly useful to us as grant funders. We do our grant funding based on need, so if need is identified, that is where we can bring that wraparound support to families.

[Mr Francois]

Q This is my last question. You mentioned SEND, which I think we have already agreed we might discuss on Thursday, because it is so important. Could you say a bit about the work that your charity has done on the SEND front?

Mandy Harding: We realise that a lot of our families have “plus, plus, plus” issues. We know that across the country there are issues with SEND. Getting assessments is very difficult and transferring across local authorities is particularly tricky. The issues were laid out quite well in the “Living in our Shoes” report by Professor Jan Walker, which was commissioned in 2019. She laid out some recommendations, most of which—over 100—were accepted by the Government at the time. We have built on that report. We have continued to investigate need; we have gone out to beneficiaries to find out what is going on and what they need. That is the power of using commissioning principles in our grant-making, which is quite unique. We can then commission with the use of grants, having seen who the best provider is.

One of the big pieces of work we are doing is around neurodiversity. It is a big area of work, and I have already booked to speak to both my colleagues either side of me, because we would like to make this a tri-service piece of work going forward. I think that is what will be required to enable the changes that we can see might need to happen.

[Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)]

Q Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for your time this afternoon. All three of you will have seen much during your working lives and in the roles you have now, and had extensive conversations with service personnel. We are aware that there is an attrition rate from the service, low morale, dissatisfaction with the role and various issues to do with that. When we look at different surveys, key themes come out a number of times to do with accommodation, career prospects and family life.

The provision in clause 3 provides that service complaints can be made from people who are not necessarily service personnel, which is different from what happens with the ombudsman now. First, what are your thoughts on that? Secondly, one of the themes that has come through is the need for trust and transparency about the impact from anything that the new role does. How could that change enhance that?

Mandy Harding: I can take the first part of the question. I referred to the “Living in our Shoes” report by Professor Jan Walker. That report was very significant because it identified that when one person serves, the whole family serves. Having access for families is a welcome addition and my colleagues at the Naval Families Federation will be able to speak more effectively on that. It is not my area of expertise, because I am a grant maker, but I am sure that they would have more to say.

Air Commodore Simon Harper: I agree completely. We have a phrase in the Air Force: “Support the family”. You retain the service person by supporting the family. In respect to the question you ask, I would be supportive of the service family having that access. As a charity, it is important that we recognise the offer to the serving person. That offer is effectively a psychological contract that covers many different aspects, whether it be pay, pensions, housing, accommodation, food, or ability to get access to medical and dental care— and, indeed, the charities, too, play a role in that offer. It affects the serving families in different points at different times. It is very difficult to say there is a single issue or a few issues that are causing the level of dissatisfaction reported through the armed forces continuous attitude surveys and the like and through the families continuous attitude survey.

We are a families federation, and provide more detail on certain families. It is a multi-faceted issue, though, and difficult to pinpoint one particular place. It is important to understand that that offer is multifaceted and is a psychological contract at its very heart. It could take a number of things, which begin over time, to wear away the good will of that family, which then leads to dissatisfaction and, ultimately, people leaving the services.

Col. Darren Doherty: I do not think I can add much more to that, or comment on access to the service complaints system from beyond the serving person. I can speak about the wider family context and put it against what we provide.

As the Army Benevolent Fund, we provide a lifetime of support to serving and former soldiers and their immediate families, including the bereaved, when they are in need. That has built up since the Army Benevolent Fund was formed, 80 years ago. Even then, we understood the importance of the family unit and the importance of supporting the continuum of service, not just of the service person but of the whole family as they continue through the journey: joining, leaving and then serving, whether as a reservist, or a regular reservist, as in my case, and as a veteran, with the family that serves alongside them. That person, family or service person might be bereaved as well. It is about that total inclusivity.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Welcome: will each of you introduce yourself for the record?

Collette Musgrave: I am Collette Musgrave, the chief executive of the Army Families Federation.

Sarah Clewes: I am Sarah Clewes, the chief executive of the Naval Families Federation.

Maria Lyle: I am Maria Lyle, director of the RAF Families Federation.

[Mr Francois]

Q Having dealt with the three families’ federations when I was a Minister—admittedly, about a decade ago—I always found your input extremely valuable. I put that on the record this afternoon. I am sure that the Minister will echo my remarks.

You represent the families of service personnel and, as at the heart of the Bill are issues of general service welfare, may I give each of you an opportunity to raise your top two or three issues under that heading that you would like to see the commissioner produce early thematic reports on and to give us some idea why you picked those? This time, let us start with the senior service.

Sarah Clewes: “Welfare” is an interesting term. We are not in the welfare space. The Navy is looked after by the Royal Navy families and personnel service—they deal with welfare. However, under what “welfare” might mean to families, at the Naval Families Federation, our top two issues are housing and support to non-UK serving personnel and their families, with visa and immigration, the processes and the ongoing need for support from our qualified caseworkers.

Collette Musgrave: To be frank, I will be boring and raise the same two issues—but I will expand a little on “non-UK”. We have had multiple investigations and reports on the state of housing and accommodation—SLA and SFA—but there has been little investigation into the nature of the challenges that non-UK serving personnel, or family members who might be non-UK, also face in service family life.

[Mr Francois]

Q That is fair. The Defence Committee has done quite a bit on service accommodation down the years, but I cannot recall—having served on it for seven years or so—ever doing something specific on that. That is probably to the Committee’s discredit, but I cannot remember us doing a report directly on that.

Collette Musgrave: Non-UK serving personnel have been increasing year on year and form a much greater proportion of our armed forces than they once did.

[Mr Francois]

The Royal Air Force, what about you? It will be interesting to see whether we have a hat trick. Will you give us your top one or two?

Maria Lyle: You nearly have a hat trick. You say that we represent families, which we absolutely do. We represent serving personnel as well, which is why I will mention housing in terms of houses, but also single-living accommodation. We had 650 people who came to us this year on that issue, before we get going on housing itself.

My second one—we have a much smaller non-UK population in the RAF because we recruit differently—would be education and childcare. That is what people come to us about in its various forms and facets.

[Mr Francois]

Q Anecdotally, if colleagues will forgive me, I remember going to RAF Digby about a decade ago, where there were some very highly-qualified communications specialists, who do important work, living in what were virtually demountables, to use a colloquial term. These people are massively employable in industry and then we wonder why they leave, so I sympathise with your raising that issue. Again, this is a bit of a hot button of mine, but you also mentioned educational need. Does that include special educational needs, and if so, could you elaborate on that slightly?

Maria Lyle: It does. That is the very sharpest end of the wedge when it comes to challenges for military families. If they are moving, picking up that provision and replicating it in a new area is not always possible. I would say that they are the most vulnerable—the ones who have the biggest challenges to overcome in our systems.

[Mr Francois]

Q Perhaps I could take the liberty, Mr Efford, of asking the other two services whether they want to add anything on the SEN point. The Army tends to move around so much; I know that it is a particular issue when families move from garrison A to garrison B.

Collette Musgrave: I would merely echo Maria’s comments. It is very much at the sharp end of things in education provision for service children. SEN is a real concern for us, and significant numbers of people articulate to us that they are going to either leave or serve in separated service, because of the frustrations felt through many years of moving from location to location and having to start the SEN process over again. The transferability of many things that affect service personnel and their families, both for those inside the UK and those moving to and from the UK, is a real challenge and can often be the final tipping point for them making that decision to either leave or serve unaccompanied.

[Mr Francois]

Q I wrote a paper about retention, called “Stick or Twist?”, for a previous Prime Minister.

Collette Musgrave: Indeed you did.

[Mr Francois]

The pressure on family life, as we have already heard today, is the single biggest reason why people leave, but when we went round a number of military bases, we found it was often an amalgam of reasons. Sometimes there would be a pressure cooker effect over several years, and then one thing might become, in colloquial English, the straw that broke the camel’s back. Sometimes it is that cocktail that just becomes a bit too much. Is that a fair characterisation? [Interruption.] I can see some heads nodding, so that still holds good five years on. Thank you very much. You have been generous with your time, Mr Efford—thank you.

[Helen Maguire]

Q I will start from the left and go to the Army first. It is nice to meet you, Collette, and thank you for coming. I want to understand what challenges you see with families getting the support they need, and how you think the commissioner will help to address those challenges in their role.

Collette Musgrave: The challenges that we see with families getting the support they need can be articulated as both internal and external. Internal services and processes are the ones that Defence offers to families in order to maintain service family life, and then there are those provided by what one might characterise as external agencies—whether that is local authorities, the NHS, educational provision or whatever. The nature of the challenge can be different depending on with whom families are seeking to engage.

The challenges within the internal system can be largely about not being able to access the right information, not being given the right information when asking for it, consistency of the information and guidance that is given, and consistency of the provision. As we have spoken about, Army families in particular are very mobile, and what they are provided with in one location might be very different to what they are provided with in another, both in extent and quality of provision. We would really like to see the Armed Forces Commissioner do something on that in their role.

As the Army Families Federation, we absolutely welcome the introduction of an Armed Forces Commissioner with, as the Secretary of State said, a laser-like focus on the serving experience, which is often lost when talking about the armed forces community—those who are actually serving at the moment. We believe the Armed Forces Commissioner can play a key role in looking at the consistency of provision of both policy and processes within defence. Many of the concerns that come to us are a result of mixed information and mixed messages, and families not being able to access the provision that is there because they simply do not know how to access it or are being blocked in some way.

Externally, the issue is subtly different. There is not an unwillingness from the general UK population to support service personnel and their families. What there is sometimes is a lack of knowledge and understanding. In many of the large organisations that they are interfacing with, whether that is the NHS, a local authority or the Department for Work and Pensions, there is often a lack of understanding of the unique circumstances of service personnel and their families. It is difficult sometimes for those families in particular, who are to an extent slightly outside society—I am not articulating that well, because that is not what I want to say, particularly as a former service family and veteran myself. Often with housing, as well as sometimes healthcare and education—particularly if they are overseas or move back from overseas—their interfaces with external statutory authorities are not always straightforward and can vary hugely as they move around the country. Your experience in Scotland might be very different to your experience in England. Their ability to interface effectively with those services can sometimes be compromised.

Many of these organisations have signed up to the armed forces covenant. The people at the top are very happy to sign up to the armed forces covenant and say, “Yes, we made a great commitment.” The people on the frontline, who are actually dealing with our service personnel and their families, are often not so well-informed and do not necessarily fully understand some of the additional or different provision that has been made under the terms of the armed forces covenant. Those are the big handfuls, and to finally answer your question, those two key areas are where the Armed Forces Commissioner could help.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Minister, if you could give us your name, rank and serial number, we will get on.

The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard): Hello, my name is Luke Pollard. I am the Minister for the Armed Forces.

[Mr Francois]

Q Francois, Lieutenant 523962—very, very rusty number. Minister, we will get into all the debates on Thursday, but I give you fair notice that, after the testimony of a number of people today, including the last panel, we are probably going to try to provoke a debate on special needs education under clause 3, when we get to that—just to give you and your officials time to prepare.

I have a couple of other questions on the Bill. You said something on Second Reading that was not entirely clear—I do not mean that critically; it is just the way that it came out. Is the commissioner still going to take up individual cases that have exhausted the service complaints process, in the way that the Service Complaints Ombudsman currently does, or is the commissioner going to concentrate generally on more thematic issues? If it is the latter and not the former, that is a big change. Could you clarify that?

Luke Pollard: Yes, certainly. On the point about SEND, we have not specified an exhaustive list of precisely what the commissioner should be looking at because the independence of the commissioner allows them to choose which issues they want to address, based on the feedback that they are receiving from armed forces personnel and their families, or that they have identified on their visits. It is not an exhaustive list, and we are happy to look at particular circumstances—thank you for the notice.

When it comes to the role of the commissioner, we are effectively rolling the Service Complaints Ombudsman functions into the commissioner. The additional own initiative powers that will be added to this role, forming the commissioner’s office, will be for them to undertake thematic inquiries. Again, we have not overly specified the process that will happen when someone gets in touch with the commissioner, precisely because we want the commissioner to define what their processes should be and to have the independence to establish the processes, the structures and the ability to listen and feed into their thematic reports.

To the same extent, we have not specified how many thematic reports a commissioner should make. We are working on the assumption that, if they are looking at a range of issues, an annual report would contain a summary of their work throughout the year, as well as the usual annual reporting details about staff levels, volumes and other bits like that.

The Bill also includes the power for the commissioner to publish a separate report on a thematic issue if they choose to. It will be down to the commissioner to decide not only where that comes from, but where the issues are taken up. The commissioner has the ability to look at the service complaints system and the issues coming through that as one measure for deciding what thematic areas to investigate. It will be for the commissioner to decide what recommendations to make to Government via Parliament.

[Mr Francois]

Q To be really clear, is it both? If Corporal Atkins has exhausted the service complaints process but still feels deeply aggrieved and is convinced that it has not adequately dealt with his issue, he could still go to the commissioner, and the commissioner would have the discretion, just as the ombudsman always had, to take up Corporal Atkins’ complaint and look into it in more detail.

Luke Pollard: Exactly right—all the SCOAF functions move in their entirety. The only change we are making to the SCOAF functions is a very slight and minor one: at the moment, you need an officer to decide validity or eligibility, but that is being changed to an official. Apart from that, the entire SCOAF system is deliberately unchanged, because the place for any revisions to the functioning of the service complaints system would be the armed forces Bill, which will come in about two years’ time. The Bill gives the commissioner the ability to be informed by the service complaints system, as well as anything else they may receive, when deciding on thematic investigations or areas they want to look at.

[Mr Francois]

That is pretty clear, so thank you for clarifying. I will stop there because I know you have only limited time for your panel and others will want to ask questions.

[Michelle Scrogham]

Q It has all gone very quiet on the national veterans commissioner. All the devolved Governments have one; when will we get one here?

Luke Pollard: The Minister for Veterans and People has been looking at the system and will be taking steps to see what the most appropriate representation or system to put in place is. We inherited a system that has national veterans commissioners in some locations, but not all. Al Carns will look at that in due course.

We have deliberately not specified the interaction between any established commissioner for veterans or veterans group and the commissioner in the Bill, because we want the Armed Forces Commissioner to make an independent judgment. My expectation, however, is that there would be regular meetings between the commissioner and the variety of stakeholder groups that operate in the wider armed forces community, partly to check in on issues, but also, importantly, to check in on the progress of their recommendations and how they are being implemented.

A key part of this process is shining a spotlight on an issue, and in my mind it is not sufficient to say, “Here is an issue,” and just present it to Parliament. There needs to be an understanding of what happens next with it, and that is where that interaction would probably be most found.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (First sitting)

Mark Francois Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

A lot of Members are unused to Bill Committees, so if you want to speak, put up your hand in good time, the Clerk will let me know and we will get everyone in. I call Mark Francois.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

Q Good morning, and thank you to the witness for your time today. You describe the Bill as “positive”. In your opinion, what are the main differences between your position and that of the commissioner, as proposed in the legislation? How do you see those as advantageous?

Mariette Hughes: My remit is extremely narrow. It does what it needs to do in providing oversight of the service complaints system, but it restricts me and those who work in my office to looking only at issues related to service complaints—those complaints that have been through the system and applications that have been made directly to my office.

We know that one issue is that not enough people complain. Between the number of people who report that they experience poor behaviours or unacceptable things in the workplace and the number of people who complain and come through to my office is a huge delta. We are not able to look into the reasons why. The ability to look behind those issues raised as pure service complaints is incredibly advantageous.

For me, there is also an element of being able to look at the further level of “So what?” Too many times when we look at a service complaint, we are considering whether the individual has been wronged because of whether or not a policy has been applied correctly to them, and that is as far as our analysis can go. What the Bill will provide is the ability to go behind that to say, “Does this policy provide the best for our service personnel in terms of their welfare?” Those are the key issues for me.

[Mr Francois]

Q When you were doing your role, would you have preferred the opportunity to do the thematic reports envisaged in the Bill?

Mariette Hughes: Yes, absolutely. When I last spoke in front of the Defence Committee, we mentioned that we would like those powers, and my predecessor had asked for them as well. We were told previously that until we got our backlog and performance sorted, they would not be able to be extended to us, but that is the direction we have been pushing in. We have been asking for them for years, and we would be very excited about it.

[Mr Francois]

Q Lastly, what is your current backlog of complaints? We are working on the assumption that when the roles transition, anything that is metaphorically in your in-tray will transfer across to the commissioner. As of today, how many legacy cases—if we can call them that—do you envisage transferring across to the new organisation?

Mariette Hughes: I say this with a pinch of salt because I have not logged on this morning to check whether we have had any new applications, but the backlog is zero. We have around 30 cases in active investigation. Any new cases coming into my office are instantly allocated out. We have brought the backlog down to nothing, and we are at 100% timeliness.

[Mr Francois]

Q Having served on the Defence Committee and interviewed your predecessors, but not you, I commend you on that. Clearly, a lot of work has been done to catch up. There were hundreds before, so for the record, congratulations if you are down to just 30 live cases.

Mariette Hughes: Thank you. It has been very important to us. When I took on the role, the wait time for individuals to have their cases looked at by me was around nine months. When we are the organisation holding the services to account for how swiftly they deal with complaints, that does not fly very well. If we are going to be the champion of what good looks like, we have to be able to demonstrate that we can apply those lessons to ourselves to make the services trust us, so I am pleased that we have been able to do that over the last three years.

[Mr Francois]

Thank you very much.

[Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)]

Q Good morning, and thank you for joining us. On the point about transfer, how do you envisage the transfer of staff from the existing system operating? I have just a couple of little points after that.

Mariette Hughes: One of my main concerns is ensuring a smooth transition. My staff are quite excited for the new remit. Again, we as an organisation have been pushing for it for a while, but naturally there is consternation and a bit of anxiety about what it means for them. Broadly under the scope of the legislation, if the powers and functions of the ombudsman are simply lifting and shifting to the commissioner role, I anticipate that the majority of my staff will continue operating as usual.

It is key for us that we do not disrupt the good work that has been happening. A lot of my staff have been at the organisation longer than I have, and they remember when the backlog was even worse. They are the ones who have done the work and delivered that performance. It would be absolutely devastating for them to see it disrupted, so ensuring that they have somewhere to operate from, have clear legislation, understand what they are able to do and can just continue as usual will be key.

The other element to be considered is the other side of our business—those who look after our finance, IT and stats. Their roles will potentially need to expand to cover more under the Armed Forces Commissioner’s office, and that is what needs to be established through a transitionary period.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from Ted Arnold, senior public affairs and policy manager for Help for Heroes, and Angela Kitching, director of campaigns, policy and research for the Royal British Legion. For this panel we have until 10.40 am. Could the panel introduce themselves?

Angela Kitching: Thank you for inviting us to give evidence. I am Angela Kitching, the campaigns, policy and research director for the Royal British Legion. We have been holding focus groups on the Bill with members of the armed forces community and their families—those who are currently serving—to see what their views are. Some of the interesting points that we would like to draw out today are around how we can measure the impact of the role, and what the proper balance is between thematic and individual complaints, given the new scope of the role. We would also like to explore the question of relevant family members and who will be able to raise complaints.

Ted Arnold: Thank you for the opportunity to give evidence this morning. My name is Ted Arnold, and I am the senior policy and public affairs manager at Help for Heroes. We are a veterans’ charity, supporting veterans and their families and I will very much be making comments from that perspective. We very much welcome the Bill and we see the key underlying principle as calling for a more transparent culture to make it harder for Defence to hide embedded problems. That is a conversation that we want very much to be a part of. We believe the veteran community has substantial insights to offer to that conversation, as we seek to improve the lives of serving personnel who one day will become veterans themselves.

[Mr Francois]

Q Good morning to both of you. Thank you for joining us. First, to the Royal British Legion, your briefing note makes a number of positive suggestions about the Bill. You say quite a bit about the armed forces covenant and the duty that that places upon Government and parliamentarians. How, if at all, do you think the new role of the commissioner will help to strengthen our obligations under the covenant?

Angela Kitching: As colleagues will know, the covenant is the promise that the Government make on behalf of the nation to those who serve and who have served, their families and the bereaved. I think the role of the commissioner can help to give that some teeth. Hopefully, the way that the welfare remit is written will go beyond the current legal duties under the covenant and will allow the commissioner to consider thematic issues where service personnel and their families face significant problems.

I hope that in places where the covenant does not have legal force, such as Northern Ireland, the commissioner will be able to bring parties together and co-ordinate a proper response from local authorities or national Governments to improve the experience of service personnel and their families.

I particularly want us to think about the position of the bereaved, who are often not well considered in terms of the covenant. They are one of the groups of people who are supposed to be given special consideration under the covenant, yet they are often missed out when local authorities and others plan their services related to the covenant. I hope that, through the definition of “relevant family members”, the commissioner will be able to bring to the fore some of the experiences of the bereaved community.

[Mr Francois]

Q The Bill focuses on serving personnel; what, if anything, do you think the commissioner will be able to do for veterans? As drafted, the legislation does not give the commissioner much of a role in regard to veterans, and some people would argue that that is a lacuna in the Bill. What is what is the RBL’s perspective on that?

Angela Kitching: If the powers transfer as they are at the moment, veterans who have experienced a problem in service and raised that through the service complaints system will, we hope, be able to continue to pursue their individual cases. We would like clarity on that point, because I feel it was not well explained on Second Reading.

In terms of the commissioner’s relationships, it is really important that they think about their relationships with the veterans commissioners and the veterans advisory and pensions groups that exist around the country. If Haythornthwaite is to be properly implemented, it is going to be a spectrum of service where people pass from serving into reserve and into veteran, and back again, so it will be really important to spot the themes to make sure that we have a group of people in the armed forces community who can rely on the knowledge that they will be well treated when they are in a serving scenario.

[Mr Francois]

Q I have one more question on that subject. One issue that cropped up on Second Reading was the proposed UK veterans commissioner and how, if at all, this commissioner would interact with that commissioner. It is not clear how much progress has been made on the veterans commissioner; what is the RBL’s perspective on that? Do you have any concerns about the rate of progress on the UK-wide veterans commissioner?

Angela Kitching: Yes. You will be aware that that was an open advert and people were being invited to apply just prior to the election. We have not yet heard an update on what will happen to that role. We think it is really important that there is a national veterans commissioner, as described. Clearly, the Armed Forces Commissioner will have a wider, deeper and better resourced role than any of the other commissioners. I think a lot could be learned, particularly from the Scottish Veterans Commissioner, because they report directly to Parliament. The Armed Forces Commissioner can look to that community of commissioners regularly to make sure that they pick up issues as people are leaving service.

[Mr Francois]

Q Let me turn to Help for Heroes. For the record, Mr Arnold, I had the privilege of knowing Bryn Parry, who is of course no longer with us. We still think of his widow, Emma. He was an exceptional man and he did a great thing.

What is Help for Heroes’ perspective on some of the veterans’ issues that I have just put to the RBL, please?

Ted Arnold: To build on what Angela said, in our experience, and from what we are told, the military works well and looks after its own until there is a problem in service, be it injury or illness, when it often closes ranks, withholds vital information, or provides inconsistent or varied support.

The last part of the mantra, “Join well, serve well, leave well”, is often an afterthought, particularly for the wounded, injured and sick. Very much a key message from our beneficiaries relates to that variability, inconsistency and uncertainty during their service, and particularly at the point of discharge and building up to transition. For instance, the German model has looked at the issues of transition out of service, and how those policies and procedures would impact personnel post service. Veterans can probably talk with greater openness about their experiences with their service, with the benefit of distance and hindsight, to really crack some of those issues open. The Minister was right to point out on Second Reading that the agencies and services in place are very different for veterans, and it is important to make that distinction, but a lot of these issues stem from the point of discharge or transition.

One issue on which we have been working closely with the Veterans Minister is the call for an independent review into the medical discharge process. We believe that the policies and processes are very much there but are followed inconsistently across the three services, or not followed properly by the chain of command. Building on the other thematic reviews, in regard to issues such as welfare more broadly, leadership style or elements of training, kit or housing, we believe that we hold a wealth of experience, and a wealth of data and evidence, from that community that we would very much like to build into those thematic reviews.

[Mr Francois]

Q Lastly, on the veterans point, most local authorities, in accordance with the covenant, have appointed armed forces champions, but I think it is probably true to say—this is not a party political point—that that is very patchy across different local authorities. Some, bluntly, pay lip service but do not really make a lot of difference for veterans. Others really do go the extra mile, particularly in the allocation of social housing. What is your experience, as Help for Heroes, of how that system works at the local government level?

Ted Arnold: I think we would broadly say something similar. It is a postcode lottery in terms of support and how the covenant is applied, and there are inconsistencies with the armed forces champions. Some areas are very good—they have some density of serving personnel or veterans, and they are very aligned with some of those issues—and others less so. That seeps into the whole culture, and it touches on a previous point made by the ombudsman about having someone else to advocate on your behalf on those issues, be it getting the right welfare support or getting the right healthcare support. For many, the armed forces champion is seen as that point, but others have to draw on family and the charity sector to get access to the support that they need.

[Graeme Downie]

Q I want to raise two points, and the first is mostly for Angela, from the issues you have been discussing in the focus groups. Do you feel that the terminology in clause 4 on general service welfare is appropriate and suitable for purpose? First of all, do you feel that the term “general service welfare” itself covers the correct areas? Similarly, in subsection (2) of new section 340IA, which the Bill will insert into the Armed Forces Act 2006, do we feel that words such as “may materially affect” welfare are the correct terminology? Do we feel that is sufficient?

In subsection (3) of that new section, do we feel that a “relevant family member” is correctly drawn? Further down, subsection (7) of the new section states that the Secretary of State will give the commissioner “reasonable assistance”. From the focus groups and the work you have done with your members, is there a feeling that that is the correct terminology? Will that capture everything that they feel the commissioner needs to be involved in, or is there any work that can be done to broaden or tighten some of those definitions?

Angela Kitching: I will do my best with that technical question. I think welfare is a well understood term in the armed forces community. Calling out particular experiences of discrimination, bullying and harassment is useful, because that is not held to be a welfare issue; it is held to be an employment and discrimination issue. On that one, that feels appropriate.

The second part that you raised was about a relevant family member. That really does need significant further exploration in Committee, and further definition. I understand that the Government intend to publish regulations when the Bill passes from the Commons to the Lords, but understanding what a “relevant family member” is has been a really disputed point in the armed forces community. For example, the bereaved parents of people who have lost their service person often feel that they are not included in the world of the armed forces community, and it is the same for the siblings of those who are bereaved. The families of non-UK personnel who are not resident in the UK also often feel outside the environment. The issue is about understanding who a relevant family member is, and being open to the fact that that person could raise relevant information.

Establishing really clearly whether somebody can raise a complaint or a concern—three terms are being used, “complaint”, “concern” and “issue”—and getting clarity over who is allowed to do what is extremely important, because otherwise it will unduly raise people’s expectations that they will be able to follow something through in a formal process, when what they are being invited to do is offer additional information for a thematic review. We need absolute clarity in the way that is communicated to the armed forces community—who has right to a complaint versus who is able to raise a concern or issue more broadly.

The only other thing I would mention is that the process will be everything. I was surprised by the focus groups: we thought that we would collect information about issues that people were likely to want to raise with the commissioner if their scope were broadened, but what people wanted to talk about was how safe they would feel in the process—would they be prepared to raise something, would they be able to do it jointly as the commissioner just raised, would family members feel that they were able to raise concerns and would it affect their person’s career progression or ability to continue to make progress?

There is a high level of distrust in certain areas of current service complaints, for example service-to-type complaints, where people are making accommodation complaints. At the moment, there is already a three-stage process that has to be closed before someone is able to approach the ombudsman. The middle section of that process is so overwhelmed at the moment that people are getting standard messages to say, “We are not able to progress your complaint on the current timelines.” That in itself would be a reason for somebody to be allowed to go to the ombudsman, but they will already have been through an extensive paperwork process to try to pursue their individual complaint before they get to the stage where the commissioner is reviewing the process.

It is getting the balance of expectation right for individuals who are serving and their family members of whether this is likely to be effective and get faster, or whether thematic reviews would be a better place to put their efforts if they have a broader based complaint such as an accommodation issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from Lieutenant General Sir Andrew Gregory, controller of SSAFA, the Armed Forces charity, and Lieutenant General Sir Nicholas Pope, chair of the Confederation of Service Charities. We have until 11.25 am for this panel. Could our witnesses introduce themselves, perhaps saying a bit about themselves and what they do?

Lt General Sir Andrew Gregory: Good morning, sirs and ma’ams. I am Andrew Gregory. I spent 35 years in the Royal Artillery in the British Army. My last three years were as Chief of Defence People in the Ministry of Defence—very much looking at these sorts of areas —during which the Service Complaints Commissioner became the Service Complaints Ombudsman, so I have seen some of the transition. I left the military in 2016 and have been the controller and chief executive of SSAFA, the Armed Forces charity since then. I am also a trustee of the Armed Forces Parliamentary Trust, which runs the armed forces parliamentary scheme.

Lt General Sir Nicholas Pope: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I am Nick Pope. I know some members of the Committee. I was an Army officer for 39 years—I am struck by this witness panel’s age compared with the previous panel’s. I finished in my job as effectively the Army’s second in command, so I dealt with the likes of Mariette and Nicola from the Service Complaints Ombudsman from a single-service perspective. As the Army’s 2IC, I was the principal personnel officer for the Army. I left the Army in 2019 and am now chair of the Confederation of Service Charities, Cobseo. A couple of years ago, I also helped Rick Haythornthwaite to produce the Haythornthwaite review of the armed forces community, which was probably the first time in a generation that we had had a systemic look at the people function for the armed forces. So I sit here in three guises to answer your questions.

[Mr Francois]

Q Generals, good morning. Nick, could you give us some idea of how many service charities Cobseo now covers and some idea of the different topics? I know you have banded them together; how does that work? When you have done that, could you explain the charitable sector’s broad view—if it is possible for so many different charities, large and small, to have a collective view—of the Bill and any strengths and weaknesses therein? Please take it in those three parts.

Lt General Sir Nicholas Pope: I must start by commending you for the “Filling the Ranks” report, which I have mentioned here before, and which was one of our opportunities to look at the way we carry out armed forces recruitment. I still go back to that report and read it by my bedside table.

We believe there are currently around 1,735 military service charities. Some people would say, “Golly, that’s an awful lot,” but we are the one percenters—there are 160,000 charities in the UK and about 1,700 military service charities. The first thing to say is that whether that is too much or too little is irrelevant, because each charity is answerable through its board and trustees to the Charity Commission. We are not stuck with the number, because it changes, but that is the number of charities.

All charities are not the same. Of that number, a vast swathe is focused on heritage, museums and monuments, or service funds—ship stations and aircraft stations. About 500 really cover welfare and benevolence—the kinds of military charity organisations you would typically think of. Of the 500, about 25 raise about 90% of the money. If you are going to focus on money and impact at the national level, the likes of Andrew in SSAFA, the Royal British Legion or Help for Heroes are the typical charities you would think of.

That is not to decry the enormous contribution made by smaller charities. At local level, a fantastic amount of work is done, if you are thinking of a drop-in centre or breakfast club—a means of bringing together veterans, particularly for comradeship and belonging—but my point is that the word “charity” covers a smorgasbord of activities.

In the sector, we tend to slice and dice in how we bring our charities together through what are known as clusters or communities of interest, where like-minded charities come together to talk about, for example, mental health, housing or employment or issues affecting non-UK or female personnel, so we use the charity sector to think thematically about issues. Sectorally, we have an executive committee that Andrew sits on, alongside 16 other chief executives—it is like a United Nations council—where we try to garner the systemic issues across the sector. It is right to say that there is not a sector view, but what the sector can do is bring together information to say, “These are the kinds of views that exist across the military charity sector.”

It is probably also fair to say that the sector focuses not exclusively but predominantly on the veterans community, albeit some charities also link back into serving personnel. We tend not to think about either veterans or serving personnel; we try to use the nomenclature of “the armed forces community”, because it picks up the bereaved, spouses, dependants—the entire gamut of those who exist in that community. At the broadest, you might say that around 6 million or 7 million people, so gusting 10% of the UK population, have some relationship with the armed forces. That is a large number.

[Mr Francois]

Q That is a good description of the breadth of the waterfront that Cobseo covers—thank you. Are there any particular strengths or weaknesses in the Bill that you, on behalf of Cobseo, would like to highlight to the Committee before we debate it on Thursday?

Lt General Sir Nicholas Pope: I am well aware, having read the Second Reading Hansard scripts, that most of the issues I cover will not be unfamiliar to you all. The sector welcomes the Bill and it welcomes the creation of an Armed Forces Commissioner. As we approach the selection of the commissioner and further determination of the scope, we will be looking to pick up on some of the issues you have talked about with regard to independence and the boundary between the armed forces serving community and those who have served. We are interested in the ambit and the responsibilities of the commissioner function. From a selfish, sectoral perspective, we are also interested in the way in which we as a stakeholder will engage with the commissioner. Those are the kinds of activities that we are looking at.

[Mr Francois]

Q Thank you very much. General Gregory, could you answer a similar question on behalf of SSAFA? I am sure you looked at the Second Reading report, too; I know you are a very thorough chap. Are there any strengths or weaknesses in the Bill that you would like to highlight to the Committee?

Lt General Sir Andrew Gregory: First, for those who do not know, I will highlight that SSAFA is just coming up to 140 years old. It was formed in 1885 as the Soldiers’ and Sailors’ Families Association. Although Nick says that military charities have mainly focused on the veterans community, we actually do a lot of work in the serving community in many different ways. I will not expand on that now.

Like Nick, I have read the Hansard report. Initially, I was concerned that the commissioner would potentially undermine the chain of command, but I am not concerned any more. I have had a good session with the Minister for the Armed Forces—we both have—and I am reassured on that. The challenge, as Nick has talked about, is that there is a continuum running from before people join the armed forces to when they are thinking about it, to their first day of service, through their service, to their departure and to their subsequent life. Trying to state that the commissioner will look at only the time when people are subject to military law, regular and reservist, will be quite difficult. You cannot divorce some of the consequences of military service from welfare issues within and during military service.

I want to go back to Haythornthwaite and some of the propositions being considered as part of the defence review, particularly the people proposition. The review is quite rightly looking at what we are choosing to call one defence—people in uniform, full and part time, people not in uniform, full and part time, or people delivering to defence outputs. That is absolutely right. That is exactly the model that should be used, but potentially the commissioners will look at only a part of that ability to deliver defence outputs. My only concern is that the commissioner should be looking at how best to sustain defence outputs. The person is tasked to look at welfare issues. I worry that there are some artificial divides that may not help the person do their work.

[Mr Francois]

Thank you very much.

[Terry Jermy (South West Norfolk) (Lab)]

Q Sir Andrew, I work closely with SSAFA. You have some fantastic volunteers in Norfolk. Thank you for the work your organisation does.

Lt General Sir Andrew Gregory: Thank you very much.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Mark Francois Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 18th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

As the shadow Armed Forces Minister, I begin by reiterating that Conservative Members approach this Bill as critical friends, with a commitment to strengthening its impact for those who serve this country so bravely. This has been a good-quality debate, conducted in a notably bipartisan spirit. Another sub-theme has been the benign presence of a former Royal Marine mafia—they have been prevalent throughout the debate, from the Veterans Minister himself downwards. For the record, the Veterans Minister was present for the opening speeches, even though he was not allowed to contribute.

We have had a number of extremely good Back-Bench speeches, from the hon. Members for Plymouth Moor View (Fred Thomas), for North Durham (Luke Akehurst), for Angus and Perthshire Glens (Dave Doogan), for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey), for Portsmouth North (Amanda Martin), for Colchester (Pam Cox), for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger), for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie), for Livingston (Gregor Poynton), for Hartlepool (Mr Brash), for Bracknell (Peter Swallow), for Broxtowe (Juliet Campbell), for Dudley (Sonia Kumar), for South West Norfolk (Terry Jermy), and—last but not least—for Aldershot (Alex Baker), as well as from my hon. Friend the Member for Exmouth and Exeter East (David Reed).

I am particularly indebted to the hon. Member for Bracknell, who mentioned that he has the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in his constituency. In tonight’s debate, a number of tributes were paid by hon. Members who have relatives who serve in the armed forces. It is greatly to the House’s credit that we now have so many MPs who have either served in the armed forces, or have loved ones who do. My godson, Second Lieutenant Alexander Blackwell, passed out from the sovereign’s parade at RMA Sandhurst in August and is now a second lieutenant commissioned into the regular Army. I place on the record that I am as proud of him as all other hon. Members are of their family members.

We also had a very accomplished maiden speech from the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Alison Hume). Not only was she lucid and entertaining, but it was the first occasion in my 23 years in this place on which I have known anyone to get Dracula into a maiden speech—she really got her teeth into it. More seriously, she invoked the memory of our fallen comrade Jo Cox and quite rightly pointed to her plaque, which is on the wall behind me. Of course, Jo is famous for her suggestion that as Members of Parliament, we have more in common than divides us. That was absolutely the spirit of this evening’s very good debate.

At the core of this Bill, as I am sure the Minister will agree, lies a commitment to supporting our armed forces personnel. They deserve a system that not only honours their service, but ensures accountability and fairness in addressing their legitimate concerns. The Bill proposes a model similar to the German system, whereby the commissioner has what we might characterise as Ofsted-like powers, including the ability to enter military sites and access pertinent information for investigations. If executed correctly, this could enhance oversight, transparency and the lived experience of our servicemen and women, strengthening public confidence in how their issues are addressed. A truly independent, well-resourced commissioner with the right powers could be a powerful voice for our service personnel and veterans—I will come back to the topic of veterans—addressing their concerns fairly, transparently and promptly. We believe that this vision deserves cross-party support.

However, there are details in the Bill that we intend to examine closely. We must ensure that it truly delivers on its promises without adding unnecessary complexity to the existing oversight system. As we support the vision of the Bill, we also have a duty to scrutinise how this new role will be implemented, how it will integrate into the current framework, and its implications for those already navigating the armed forces complaints system. In short, the challenge for Ministers will be to convince armed forces personnel and their families that this new legislation will represent real change, and will not just mean replacing the nameplate outside the office of the Service Complaints Ombudsman with a new one that says “Armed Forces Commissioner”. We support the vision, but the proof of the pudding really will be in the eating.

I have questions that I hope the Minister will address in his winding-up speech. First, His Majesty’s loyal Opposition have concerns regarding the transition of cases outstanding with the Service Complaints Ombudsman, whose office will be abolished via clause 1. Some of those cases have been open for a considerable time, causing significant stress and frustration to those affected. Will the Minister explain what will happen to the many cases still outstanding with the current ombudsman? Will they be transferred automatically to the new commissioner? If so, what assurances can he give that the transition, which will follow Royal Assent, will not lead to further delays or the loss of critical information? Our service personnel deserve timely resolutions. Indeed, we must avoid any risk of cases slipping through the cracks during the handover. I hope he will accept that that is a perfectly legitimate concern.

Secondly, what is the timeline for establishing the new commissioner role? Do the Government expect to have the commissioner in place by the time the strategic defence review reports in the first half of next year? Some cynics are already suggesting that that will be in late June 2025. If we could have confirmation on the timeline, that would be helpful.

Thirdly, I come to financial questions. What will be the true cost of establishing and maintaining the commissioner? Paragraph 11(1) of proposed new schedule 14ZA to the Armed Forces Act 2006 states:

“The Secretary of State may make payments and provide other financial assistance to the Commissioner.”

What budget has been allocated to the commissioner’s office for 2024-25? Will that come from the MOD’s budget or from the Cabinet Office? Wherever it comes from, how much money are we talking about? The figure of £5 million has been mentioned a couple of times this evening; I wonder whether the Minister can confirm that. On the financial implications, how will that funding affect other essential services? As hon. Members in all parts of the House know, defence budgets are continually stretched.

Fourthly, another critical area on which we would like further clarity is the authority that the commissioner will hold. Will this individual have the autonomy needed to genuinely advocate for our forces without interference? That point was stressed by the Chair of the Defence Committee, the hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi), in his very good contribution. How will the commissioner interact with the Defence Committee? The Secretary of State confirmed in his opening remarks that the Defence Committee will be involved in the appointment process. Will it have a veto on a proposed appointee if, for whatever reason, it has concerns that they might not be suitable? It is crucial that the Bill brings about measurable change that is beneficial to our service personnel. The proposal in the Bill that thematic reports be laid before Parliament each year is welcomed by the Opposition.

Finally, as a number of hon. Members have asked, what about veterans? Clause 4 will amend the Armed Forces Act 2006 to allow the commissioner to investigate a

“general service welfare matter…which, in the Commissioner’s opinion…arises in connection with the ongoing service of persons subject to service law…or relevant family members.”

There is no direct reference to veterans, even though by definition they previously served in the armed forces, some of them for many years. Given that veterans also experience welfare issues—not least to do with the payment of pensions or outstanding claims from the armed forces compensation scheme—is there scope for allowing the new commissioner to take responsibility for examining those issues, too?

The Royal British Legion states in its very good briefing note on the Bill:

“RBL and Poppyscotland would like clarity on how the Armed Forces Commissioner will interact with the existing Veterans’ Commissioners for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and the proposed National Veterans’ Commissioner.”

When the Minister sums up, will he explain what the relationship will be between the new armed forces commissioner and the proposed national veterans commissioner? While he is at it, will he update us on the progress on the national veterans commissioner? On a related point, the well-respected Northern Ireland veterans commissioner Danny Kinahan resigned recently, for reasons that have not been made entirely clear. Will the Minister update the House on why he resigned, and what arrangements have been put in place for his replacement?

As I have outlined, the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill represents an opportunity to enhance the support and advocacy that we provide to our armed forces. There is potential for the Bill to address some of the most pressing issues facing service personnel today, and to offer essential accountability and transparency to those who sacrifice so much in the service of our nation. It is crucial that we get this right. We are committed to working with the Government to ensure that the Bill delivers on its promise. We owe it to our armed forces to scrutinise the details thoroughly, so that this legislation does not become another layer of oversight that complicates the process, but rather provides streamlined and meaningful support.

By addressing the issues we have raised today—the transition of outstanding ombudsman cases, the urgency of the timeline, the potential costs, the commissioner’s authority and the scope of support for veterans—we can avoid pitfalls. As we move forward and the Bill enters Committee, we will continue to work constructively with the Government in, I hope, the same bipartisan spirit that the whole House has clearly embodied this evening, pushing for clarity and advocating for the changes needed to make this legislation as truly impactful as I am sure that the Government and the Minister intend it to be. Our forces deserve nothing less. We stand ready to collaborate on securing a fair, accountable and effective system that upholds the highest standards for those who are serving and who have served, and their families. We thank them for their service.

--- Later in debate ---

[Luke Pollard]

The hon. Gentleman is right about the important role that families play in supporting not just serving personnel but veterans. I am grateful to him for mentioning families, and to a number of other Members who spoke passionately about that important role that they play and the need for the commissioner to be open to representations from family members. I am particularly grateful to the hon. Member for Slough, who spoke about bereaved families in an intervention during the Secretary of State’s speech. The Bill does not give an exact definition of family members; that will be included in secondary legislation that will be published between the House of Commons and House of Lords stages. I am glad that the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell talked about kinship carers, and I should be happy to discuss them with her. We want to get this right, and putting such a definition in the Bill will enable it to be locked in. I want Members on both sides of the House to feel empowered to challenge us and help us to provide that definition, so that the Bill is drafted adequately to help serving personnel and their families to deal with service life—and that must include all the shapes and sizes of families as they exist today.

A number of Members mentioned the spending of 2.5% of GDP on defence, to which the Government are committed. The Bill states explicitly that the Armed Forces Commissioner will deal with general service welfare matters. I think it important for me to put that on record, because the commissioner will be dealing with the lived experience of those who serve and their families. This will not involve looking into “Secret Squirrel” operations or operational deployments, or the spending of 2.5%, 2.4% or any other figure; it will involve looking specifically at the welfare of those who serve. However, I realise that a number of Members want to make points about the 2.5%, and I will continue to encourage them to do so. I hope that they also welcome the extra £3 billion for defence that was announced in the Budget only a few weeks ago.

Several Members spoke about the armed forces covenant and this new Government’s manifesto commitment to putting it fully into law. I reassure them that the determination to do that is strong in the ministerial team. The Defence Secretary himself has made it clear that he wants it to be included in the armed forces Bill, which is the next piece of legislation on which the MOD will be working. I am grateful to the Members who spoke so passionately about the importance of the covenant in their constituencies. My hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent Central and for Hartlepool in particular, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester and my next-door neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View, spoke with passion about armed forces champions. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View and I share a brilliant armed forces champion in Councillor Pauline Murphy, and her determination and fierce approach to protecting and supporting the armed forces family are precisely what I hope to see in the Armed Forces Commissioner, because we need someone who will focus relentlessly on improving service life.

[Mr Francois]

When the Bill goes into Committee next month we shall be able to explore these issues in more detail, but—particularly for the benefit of the Royal British Legion and Poppyscotland—will the Minister, before he sits down, update the House on what point we have reached in respect of the national veterans commissioner?

[Luke Pollard]

The right hon. Gentleman may have missed my earlier suggestion that Members should take up their points with the Minister for Veterans and People, because this Bill is about serving personnel. However, I recognise the genuine concern felt by the organisations that he has mentioned, and I encourage him to speak to the Veterans Minister, who is currently looking at representation for veterans. I expect the commissioner to have relationships with a host of organisations across the country, and I am happy for that to be picked up.

The hon. Member for Strangford asked serious questions—as I believe did the shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford—about what will happen with a complaint being processed by the current Service Complaints Ombudsman for the Armed Forces that is transferred to the Armed Forces Commissioner. If it is a service complaint, and the complaint relates to a period of service and was raised within the time limit, the Armed Forces Commissioner will continue to investigate even if the complainant has left the forces. That is the same as the current SCOAF position. For new Armed Forces Commissioner investigations, it will be at the discretion of the commissioner whether to continue the investigation, bearing in mind that their investigations will be largely thematic, rather than picking up individual cases. I hope that reassures Members that the work will continue and any complaint currently being handled by the SCOAF will be continued.

That gives me a good opportunity to thank our current SCOAF, Mariette Hughes, and her team for their work. The Bill is designed deliberately not to adjust the service complaints system. The opportunity to do so in legislation may exist in an armed forces Bill, and I am happy to speak to Members who have concerns about the legislation relating to service complaints so that we can make sure that any edits required are included in the next such Bill.

A number of Members asked who can raise a complaint with the Armed Forces Commissioner. I am pleased to confirm that whether someone is a regular, a reserve, a recruit or a re-joiner, they will be able to raise an issue with the commissioner, as will family members of those people, in relation to the commissioner’s investigation work. That relates to the rank and grade question. We expect everyone, especially within defence, to treat the Armed Forces Commissioner with respect. The Secretary of State will be required by law to assist the commissioner with their investigations, and the appointment process that we are seeking to start will be for a very senior appointment. I reassure colleagues that the commissioner will require security clearance at a high level, because of the visits that they may make to military establishments, and they will be bound by the Official Secrets Act. Any investigation and anything they come across on their base visits will be held in the secrecy and at the classification that it deserves.

There were a number of questions about digital access. It will be up to the commissioner to decide how people will be able to raise an issue with them, rather than for us to specify it in the Bill, but I understand the issues that colleagues have raised and I would expect the commissioner to be fully accessible on various platforms, both digital and non-digital.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar asked the devolution question. As this is a reserved matter, it is the responsibility of the Westminster Parliament to deal with it here. However, it is conceivable that the Armed Forces Commissioner may investigate an issue that is the responsibility of the Westminster Government in England but is devolved to Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. In such circumstances, we anticipate that the Armed Forces Commissioner would engage with devolved Assemblies and Administrations, and I would expect a relationship to be formed between them over time so that any issues could be addressed fully. The legislation will be for the MOD to apply, and reports will ultimately flow through the House of Commons Defence Committee, but I recognise what my hon. Friend said and I hope that, through the operation of the Bill, that will be developed.

I am really grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for joining me in one of my nerdy pursuits in defence legislation and asking why Gibraltar is not covered. As a former Defence Minister, he will know that the reason Gibraltar is often excluded from defence legislation, separate from other overseas territories, is that it has an agreement with the United Kingdom to replicate the Armed Forces Act in its own legislation, but serving personnel and their families stationed in Gibraltar should be in no doubt that they will be able to access the Armed Forces Commissioner. I reassure the hon. Member for Strangford that clause 6(1) clearly sets out that the Bill will apply to Northern Ireland and, indeed, all members of our United Kingdom family of nations.

A number of colleagues mentioned the commissioner’s budget. The budget has been modelled on input from the German model. That is why we are proposing an increase from the current SCOAF budget to £4.5 million to £5.5 million. The shadow Minister wondered why that figure arose a few times in the debate. If he turns to page 12 of the explanatory notes, he will see that it says “£4.5 - £5.5m”. I suspect that is the reason why so many Members raised the figure, but it will be for the commissioner to determine how many staff they wish to employ, in what roles and how the budget is allocated.

The Chair of the Defence Committee asked how the Bill sits with our broader strategy for our armed forces personnel. This is our first step in our work of renewing the contract between the nation and those who serve. It is exactly right, as was mentioned earlier, that it forms only one part of what we have announced. The wraparound childcare announcement that the Secretary of State made at the weekend is a good example of the direction of travel that people serving in our armed forces should expect from this Government: a clear direction that says we will look not only at the kit, capabilities and doctrine in the strategic defence review, but at the lived experience for each and every one who serves, to see how we can improve it. That relates to the broader strategy about how we can measure success—not only in terms of the lived experience improvements and the additional scrutiny of such issues, but the opportunity for us to do that.

I may disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North on where the home of the Royal Navy is, as I represent Devonport in Plymouth, but I am grateful for all the contributions. Finally, I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot, who summed up the debate very well when she said that armed forces personnel

“just want the basic equipment that they need to be able to do their jobs and a good life for their families…because if they are willing to fight for us, it is the very least that we can do.”

I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Programme)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill:

Committal

(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.

Proceedings in Public Bill Committee

(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday 17 December 2024.

(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.

Consideration and Third Reading

(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.

(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.

(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.

Other proceedings

(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.—(Jeff Smith.)

Question agreed to.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Money)

King’s recommendation signified.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of:

(a) any expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by the Secretary of State, and

(b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under or by virtue of any other Act out of money so provided.—(Jeff Smith.)

Question agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Francois Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I welcome the shadow Minister to his place.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker—it is nice to be back. On recruitment, many who join the armed forces began their military journey as cadets. The previous Conservative Government’s cadet expansion programme successfully established hundreds of new cadet units in state schools. However, this Labour Government have recently withdrawn a critical £1 million-plus grant that supports cadet instructors in many of the very same state schools. Will the Government as a whole urgently review that very unwelcome decision?

[Luke Pollard]

I welcome my shadow to his place. The Government are committed to cadets. It is a really valuable pastime for young people, which provides skills and opportunities that will last them a lifetime. The Minister for Veterans and People is reviewing the cadet force to ensure that it can continue to play a really important role for young people and support the overall mission of defence.

[Mr Francois]

I welcome the Minister’s kind welcome. On retention, how can we persuade people to remain in our armed forces if they sense that the new Government do not really have their back? In that context, will the Ministry of Defence start to defend its own veterans within Whitehall, and argue that the perverse plan to repeal the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 should be abandoned as soon as possible?

[Luke Pollard]

I had such high hopes for the right hon. Gentleman as my shadow. Let me be very clear: the Government are renewing the contract between the nation and those who serve—a contract that had been eroded over 14 years, with black mould in military accommodation, falling morale and gaps in our capabilities. We will not only support retention and recruitment, but through the work that the Defence Secretary does in Cabinet and the work of the Minister for Veterans and People, we will support our veterans as well.

Remembrance and Veterans

Mark Francois Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered remembrance and the contribution of veterans.

This is the first time in four years that the House has held a general debate on remembrance. Back then, I responded for the Opposition. It is a huge honour for me to open this debate as Secretary of State for Defence and, in that role, to be the voice of veterans in the Cabinet. I am proud to have my ministerial team here with me, particularly the Minister for Veterans and People, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns), who will wind up this debate.

Given the number of colleagues from all parts of the House who have put in to speak in this debate, I wish to keep my remarks brief, so that we can hear from others. It is striking how many colleagues on the call list, of all parties, have served in our UK armed forces; many were elected for the first time in July, and I welcome them all to this debate. That underlines the deep affinity between the House and our nation’s armed forces. Whether or not we have served, we in this House have the interests of our armed forces at heart; but we may debate, forcefully at times, the state of our armed forces and how best to use them. That matters to those who put on the uniform and accept a duty to give unlimited service to our nation, ready to do anything, at any time, anywhere, if this House and His Majesty’s Government will it.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

During the troubles in Northern Ireland, hundreds of thousands of British servicemen served on Operation Banner. Hundreds were killed and thousands were maimed by both republican and loyalist bombs. I respect the right hon. Gentleman, but how can his Government repeal the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 and throw many of those veterans to the wolves in order to pander to Sinn Féin? What is noble about that?

[John Healey]

The legacy Act is without supporters in the communities in Northern Ireland, on any side. That is one of the reasons why it should be repealed. In the process of repeal, we will take fully into account the concerns and position of veterans, who have given such service, as the right hon. Gentleman rightly says, and their families.

Ukraine

Mark Francois Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

I was proud to sign that treaty, which means that Ukraine can draw down the export credit cover and contract with UK companies. It is also a framework that, like some other frameworks the UK has put in place, other nations and their companies can use to deal with the difficulties that many face in contracting with Ukraine. The Ukrainians will use it for contracting and procuring munitions and ammunition. It will allow us to step up not just the provision but the production of essential military aid to Ukraine.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

I welcome the statement, but the BBC reports that the money will be paid not in one go but in tranches over time. We have the Budget next week. Will the Secretary of State assure us that, given that the money is what accountants would call an “exceptional item”, it will in no way be included in the overall defence budget next week, or attempt to bolster or bump that up? There are rumours of cuts, so will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that the money is a one-off that will be treated completely differently in the Red Book?

[John Healey]

I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. The money is a one-off. It is additional and separate, and it will be accounted for and set out separately in the Treasury documentation. Its significance is that it is a loan to Ukraine that Ukraine will not have to pay back, because it will be serviced by the interest on the frozen Russians assets. He asks whether the sum will be paid all in one go. It will be made available soon in the new year, and the Ukrainians will be able to draw it down as they need it for the purposes that they determine.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Francois Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Ian Roome (North Devon) (LD)]

1. What progress he has made on the strategic defence review.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

8. When he plans to announce the outcome of the strategic defence review.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

The Prime Minister commissioned the strategic defence review within two weeks of taking office. It will ensure that the UK is secure at home and strong abroad, both now and in years to come. The review is the first of its kind in the UK, and I am very grateful to Lord Robertson, General Sir Richard Barrons and Fiona Hill, our three external lead reviewers. They will make their final report to the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and me in the first half of 2025. I will report the SCR to Parliament.

[John Healey]

I have said that the strategic defence review will place people at its heart, and we will place people at the heart of our defence plans. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; we follow 14 years of the previous Government’s recruitment targets for all forces being missed every year. We have a recruitment crisis and a retention crisis. No plan for the future can deal with that without sorting out recruitment.

[Mr Francois]

May I wholly concur with your tribute to the late Alex Salmond, Mr Speaker?

A critical element of the strategic defence review will be the defence of our overseas territories. The Foreign Secretary told the House last week that the deal with Mauritius over the Chagos islands has been concluded. To save us waiting until next year, will the Defence Secretary tell us today how much have we offered to pay Mauritius over 99 years for the privilege of our renting back a military facility that belongs to us in first the place? Crucially, which Department will pay that bill: the Ministry of Defence or the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office?

[John Healey]

The Foreign Secretary said in his statement that full details will be properly set out when the treaty comes before the House. At that point, the House can scrutinise the deal and approve it or not. Let me make it clear that we inherited a situation in which the long-standing UK-US military base was put at risk from problems to do with sovereignty and migration. We have made a historic deal that secures the UK-US base for the future, which is why my counterpart the US Defence Secretary so strongly welcomed it when we reached it.

Ukraine

Mark Francois Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend reminds the House of a very important point. Numbers are one thing—we can say that the UK has led the Operation Interflex nations to train 45,000 Ukrainian troops—but more importantly the expertise of British and other allied soldiers has helped to provide the Ukrainian soldiers who are stepping forward to help defend their country with combat medical skills, battlefield training and survival techniques. I had the privilege to join the then Leader of the Opposition on Salisbury plain to witness some of the training and, later, to talk to Ukrainian troops who had finished their training at Brize Norton as they were poised to fly back to Ukraine. They were men very much like any in this House—lorry drivers, accountants and public relations executives—who are now, alongside their civilian colleagues, fighting for the future of their country and the right to decide, as a sovereign nation, its future in the world. I pay tribute to their bravery and to the skill of our armed forces in helping to train them for that task.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

We have had a quote from Suvorov, and Napoleon famously said that

“the moral is to the physical as three is to one.”

After two and a half years of a barbaric Russian invasion, we cannot expect the Ukrainians to keep resisting with one hand tied behind their back. That means that, while the Russians attack power stations with long-range missiles at will with winter coming, and while they use glide bombs, which are brutally effective as tactical weapons on the frontline, we have to allow the Ukrainians full freedom of action to retaliate, not just as a military necessity, but to maintain their own morale. They must be bolstered to keep going. We could help them, and it is about time that we did that one thing.

[John Healey]

The right hon. Gentleman makes his very strong points in his customary way. This is about not retaliation, but self-defence, and he is quite right to say that the impact of the “moral” often outweighs the impact of the physical. When I updated the House on the physical—the 900 sq km of the Kursk region that is now in Ukrainian hands—the “moral”, or morale, impact on Ukrainian troops and Ukrainian citizens has been huge, so just as it is putting pressure on Putin, it is also lifting the spirits of Ukraine after nearly 1,000 days of a bloody battle against Putin’s invasion.