Academies: Gender Pay Gap

Lord Agnew of Oulton Excerpts

Wednesday 25th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)]

My Lords, we are one of the first countries in the world to require all large employers to publish their gender pay gap and bonus data. Reporting will help to shine a light on where women are being held back and where employers can take action to support their whole workforce. These figures will mean that academy trusts, as with all other large employers, can start to analyse the data and take action to close the gap.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that helpful and important reply. In answer to a Written Question that I put to him about the gender pay gap he said:

“Academy trusts are free to set their own salaries”.


This is of course taxpayers’ money, and when in 471 multi- academy trusts the median pay gap was 31.7%, that is not a proper use of taxpayers’ money. Where some chief executives of multiacademy trusts now earn upwards of £400,000 a year, that is not a proper use of taxpayers’ money. Surely it is time for the Government to use their financial clout and to realise that with trust comes responsibility.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Storey, is correct that academy pay is set by the trusts themselves. However, we have taken action on high-end pay. One of the first things I did when I took on this job in September was to ask officials to write to 29 single-academy trusts where there was high pay. Since then, we have resolved that 16 of them no longer pay the levels that were indicated in their returns. We have now also written to a number of multiacademy trusts, and in the last couple of weeks we have written to all trusts which pay more than £100,000 or which have more than two people in their trust who are paid more than £100,000. So we are alert to it, I am bearing down on it where we see excesses, and I will continue to do so.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, we have known for some time that senior pay in multiacademy trusts is out of control. Now we have evidence that, as the noble Lord, Lord Storey, said, women working in academy chains suffer some of the worst gender pay gaps. Is this not public funding, which is being used to entrench inequality in the education system? I have to say that the Minister is personally associated with this issue. The website for the Inspiration Trust, which runs 14 academies in East Anglia, lists him as a trustee and a person with significant control. Noble Lords may wonder why, seven months after being appointed as an Education Minister, he is allowed to continue to hold those posts. But for now, can the Minister say that, despite the fact that trusts have the right to set their own salaries, the size of those gender pay gaps is a scandal, and are he and his department prepared to give advice to trusts to begin to close those gaps?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, perhaps I should address the Inspiration Trust first, as I was indeed its founder. The chief executive took on 14 schools, seven of which were in special measures when we took them on. All are now out of special measures. Thousands of children are getting a better education than they were five years ago, and that is the essence of what autonomy of pay is all about. Where we have excess pay and there is poor performance, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Storey, I am bearing down on that. No one is more messianic about the misallocation of taxpayers’ money, but we need to strike a balance between autonomy, where good teachers and good leaders are given the chance to develop and improve schools, and those who are not good are held to account.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, how does the Minister think that some of the questions that we have heard so far address the gender pay gap? I believe that the gender pay gap in academy schools—I declare my interest, having been a chair of two and currently a trustee of one—is associated with the subjects that each gender teaches; in other words, people who teach physics are traditionally paid significantly more than those who teach arts. That shows that we undervalue some subjects in these schools.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, unfortunately there is a market in different skills and professions. We know that we have a shortage of good physics teachers, and in order to bring physics teachers into the profession we need to offer additional incentives. However, looking more broadly across the gender pay gap, academies do not look as bad as people might suggest. For example, while in the top quartile men occupy 23% of the total workforce but have 32% of the jobs, the situation in the middle quartile is almost even, with men occupying 23% of the workforce and only 25% of them having upper-middle jobs. Therefore, I think that we are seeing great progress on this. It is also worth pointing out more generally that in 1997 the gender pay gap stood at 17.4%. Today, it has been reduced to 9.1%. I do not suggest that that is enough but it shows that we are making progress across our economy.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister be kind enough to clarify whether he is a director of the Inspiration Trust while holding the office that he holds at the moment?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I am a director and a trustee. I stood down as the chairman. That matter was discussed with the Propriety and Ethics Team in the Cabinet Office. It was fully disclosed and is in my ministerial declaration.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend accept congratulations from the House for the work he has done in enabling children’s education to be improved? Can he get one of his excellent teachers to perhaps teach the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, the difference between pay inequality and the gender pay gap? Is it not the case that men and women doing the same job in schools are paid on the same basis, and the gender pay gap is about the relative numbers of men and women in particular jobs? That is something which, from his question, it seems the opposition spokesman did not understand.

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[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, my noble friend is quite correct. It is not about any disparity between a man and a woman doing a job—that was outlawed in this country 40 years ago. I take my noble friend’s thanks for the achievements of the Inspiration Trust. Most of the credit must go to my chief executive, who is a woman—Dame Rachel de Souza. We have other exceptional women running trusts: Lucy Heller of ARK and Maura Regan of the Carmel Education Trust. Indeed, at the primary level, 65% of head teachers are women, which shows that there is every opportunity for women in the education system.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for the very helpful answers that he has given my noble friend Lord Storey and others. However, is not the real problem here that disproportionately high pay is being channelled up to a tiny number of male-dominated posts at rates far higher than the local authority-run schools can pay? How does the Minister justify that, especially to the 74% of the teaching profession who are hard-working, highly professional women?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

The noble Baroness asks a very interesting question. The pay in maintained and academy schools is actually very close. For example, the data to November 2016 shows that a maintained secondary school head teacher earned £88,300, compared to an academy secondary school head teacher who earned £92,500. However, the maintained head teacher had a 1% increase in that year, whereas the academy head teacher had a 0.4% decrease. In the primary sector, the comparisons are even closer, at £62,400 for a local authority school and £65,500 for an academy. I do not accept that money is being drawn up to mostly male teachers. As I mentioned in my earlier answer, 65% of primary heads are women. If we look at the starting pay for teachers, we see that, for a graduate teacher between the ages of 21 and 30, the average pay is £27,000, compared to £25,000 for all graduates. That does not include the very generous pension scheme that exists in the teaching profession, which has a 16.4% contribution and is underwritten by the Treasury.

Schools: Integrated Communities Strategy

Lord Agnew of Oulton Excerpts

Tuesday 24th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)]

My Lords, schools play a critical role in promoting integration and widening opportunities for all communities. Many schools already do this successfully, creating inclusive environments where our children are able to learn the values that underpin our society. We want to ensure that this is the case for all schools and other types of education setting. This is why, as part of the Green Paper issued in March, we announced a strengthened package of support for schools and measures to deliver quality education across all settings.

[Viscount Ridley (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that encouraging reply. Given that the Integrated Communities Strategy commits to supporting schools,

“to increase diversity to ensure they are more representative of their wider area”,

and in light of the evidence that religious selection by schools divides children along not just religious lines but ethnic and socioeconomic lines, with potentially worrying consequences for society, what are the Government doing to ensure the promotion in schools of the universal humanist values of the secular enlightenment and to break down barriers between children of different religious and cultural backgrounds?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, in addition to promoting the fundamental British values of democracy, the rule of law and individual liberty, all schools are required to promote mutual respect and tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs. As part of teaching a broad and balanced curriculum, all state-funded schools are required to provide religious education. Turning to integration, the Integrated Communities Strategy sets out a package of measures to help increase integration among children. It includes working with admissions authorities, where we are piloting five areas to increase diversity of pupil intakes, funding the schools linking programme, which is twinning schools of different faiths, and strengthening expectations for all new free schools on how they improve integration further.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Minister is aware, the Select Committee on Citizenship and Civic Engagement, ably chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, published its report last Wednesday. We were able to comment on the Green Paper at the end of our deliberations, including the staggering revelation that the Government had failed to mention citizenship education at all in the strategy document. This is a rhetorical question: how can the Minister persuade his colleagues in the Department for Education that schools cannot meaningfully contribute to shared British values, to the integration that we seek and to the aspirations he has laid out this afternoon if they are so uncommitted to citizenship education in our system?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I commend the work of my noble friend Lord Hodgson and his fellow members of the committee that has just reported. I extend an invitation to any of those members to meet me to discuss their recommendations and any criticisms that they have of our handling of this area. One of the most vital parts of the future of this country is to ensure that schools become the integration engine for our society. We are doing a lot to achieve that. Citizenship is part of the key stages 3 and 4 curriculum and, as the noble Lord will know, recently in our integrated strategy document we encouraged a number of additional methods to push this further forward.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the underlying cause of religious extremism is the aggressive assertion that one system of belief is better than another? Will he further agree that, while we are all free to believe what we like, schools should emphasise respect for different faiths and the exploration of the many commonalities between them?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, most dogma is based on ignorance, therefore a good education system is important because it tackles ignorance. All state-funded schools, including faith schools, have a legal obligation to promote community cohesion and to teach a broad and balanced curriculum. They are required to promote the fundamental values of democracy, the rule of law and individual liberty, as I mentioned in answer to an earlier question. We are looking at the moment at how faith free schools can pay more attention to how they attract pupils from different faiths and backgrounds.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, the Green Paper highlights the fact that 60% of minority ethnic pupils are in schools where they are in the majority. It goes on to say:

“This reduces opportunities for young people to form lasting relationships with those from other backgrounds and can restrict pupils’ outlook and education”.


Yet last year’s Conservative manifesto contained a pledge to remove the 50% cap on faith schools admissions. Surely all our state schools must be open, inclusive, diverse and integrated, and never exclusive, monocultural or segregated. The duty of the education system should not be to emphasise and entrench such differences in the eyes and minds of young people but rather to emphasise the common values, to which the Minister himself referred and which we all share. Will the Minister give an assurance now that the backward step of removing the faith schools cap is no longer government policy?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, the matter of the faith cap is still under consideration, so I am afraid that I am not able to give the noble Lord the assurance he seeks at this moment. However, referring to the recent Integrated Communities Strategy document; on education specifically we are addressing eight separate issues which all link to integration: admissions, the free school point I made a moment ago, school linking, fundamental British values, independent schools and registered schools, out-of-school settings and home education. All of them are addressed in this document, and we seek to ensure that integration remains at the heart of our policy.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

I am most grateful. Do the Government know what is being taught in our some 2,000 madrassas, which are not inspected by Ofsted, and which teach Muslim children about Islam and to recite the Koran for perhaps 20 hours a week? If the Government do not know what is going on there—and Written Answers to me confirm that they do not—should they not find out?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, we gave additional powers and budgets to Ofsted in January 2016 to carry out inspections of what we might consider to be unregistered schools. In that time, they have inspected 208 out-of-school settings. They identified 51 as being unregistered schools in the formal sense, and have closed 44 of them. There are seven still under active investigation. We have just renewed the contract with Ofsted to carry on the work. I accept that it is a problem, but we are alert to it and we are investigating it.

Social Mobility Commission

Lord Agnew of Oulton Excerpts

Monday 23rd April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

On behalf of my noble friend Lord Lennie, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)]

My Lords, the recruitment of a new chair of the commission is well under way. Applications have now closed and I am pleased to report that we have had a strong response. We will recruit new commissioners as soon as possible after the appointment of the new chair to allow him or her to provide input. These are public appointments, and the process will be completed following the governance code for public appointments.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, it is now nearly five months since the commission resigned en masse because it had been reduced to a rump of four from 10, and felt that it was not being listened to. As the Conservative chair of the Education Committee observed, this seemed extraordinary in light of the Prime Minister’s concern to fight burning injustices, and given that the commission’s final report warned that there is no overall national strategy to tackle the social economic and geographic divisions facing the country. What steps are the Government now taking as a matter of urgency to develop such a strategy and to reconstitute a strengthened commission to oversee it, as recommended by the Education Committee?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, the national strategy for social mobility is focused on removing barriers to opportunity for all, including disadvantaged people and places—whether it is through education, using the pupil premium, in which the Government have invested £13 billion since 2011, closing the attainment gap, which has narrowed by 10% in the last seven years, or increasing the national living wage by 4.4% at the beginning of this month, and by £2,000 a year since April 2016. The recommendations of the Education Select Committee are being considered by the Government, but our commitment to improving the lot, particularly of the least advantaged, remains paramount.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

What are the Government doing to help break down barriers between children from different religious and cultural backgrounds?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, we have an ongoing process of education. We announced the integration strategy a couple of weeks ago, using the schools linking programme to create sustained opportunities for children of different backgrounds to mix and socialise, and strengthening expectations on integration for all new free schools.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

In light of the fact that the last report of the Social Mobility Commission indicated that intergenerational poverty and deprivation was as bad, if not worse, in rural England than anywhere else, including urban England, can we assume that an appointment to the commission will go to someone who truly understands the particular nature of rural poverty and deprivation? In other words, are these appointments being rural-proofed?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, the Government govern for all of Britain, including rural areas, where I live, so I can assure the noble Lord that that will be an important part of the criteria in the interview process.

[The Lord Bishop of Norwich]

My Lords, greater social mobility was one of the drivers of the original academies programme set up by the last Labour Government, which was why some of us supported it so strongly. Does the Minister believe that that still holds true for academies now and that widening educational opportunities for the disadvantaged is the key factor in promoting social mobility?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

The right reverend Prelate is correct, and we ought to record our great debt of gratitude to him personally as one of the very first academy sponsors in Norfolk. I have seen the work that he has done. The short answer is yes. We have taken 1,950 previously largely failing schools into sponsored academy status. At the time they came in, only 10% of them were rated good or better. Today, 70% of those are good or better, which accounts for about 450,000 children. So I see the academy programme as a vital plank in social mobility.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, from the evidence that we have heard, social mobility inequalities are not narrowing or improving, despite what we have heard from the noble Lord and despite what the Prime Minister pledged—to make Britain a country that works for everyone. Can the Minister say why the Government are not prioritising this and why is it not improving—or is it that the Government are rather preoccupied with something else?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I assure noble Lords that it is a very high priority of this Government. If we look at some of the papers and initiatives that have been launched just over the past few months, we can see the 30-hours policy in December 2017, which was aimed at disadvantaged families. Then there was Unlocking Talent, Fulfilling Potential, aimed at improving social mobility, issued in December. I mentioned earlier the integration strategy, and we had a careers strategy in December 2017. These are all aimed at improving social mobility.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, it is clear that social mobility in the UK is declining. Will the Government issue some clear priorities and set out some clear targets by which we can measure social mobility?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I respectfully disagree with the noble Lord; I do not believe that that is the case. The number of children living in poverty has actually declined since 2010. In the recent social mobility action plan that we issued in December, we reasserted our aim to focus on areas such as the word gap, which we know is one of the biggest areas of disadvantage for young children. We have put more emphasis on high-quality post-16 choices for all young people and, as I mentioned at the beginning, we have closed the attainment gap by 10% in the last seven years.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, in 2016 your Lordships’ House had a one-year Select Committee looking into social mobility, on which I served as a member. We looked at social mobility for those young people who did not go to university. In fact, the majority of young people go into jobs, vocational training such as apprenticeships or into further education. Could the Minister please outline whether there is an intention by the department to ensure that some of the commissioners come from a non-university education background?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I certainly hope so, because I did, so I know that it is quite possible to have an interesting and fulfilling life without having gone to university. Our T-levels are very much aimed at that group of people who do not consider a university career as their priority. There is a growing awareness that there are other routes. There is an education and skills company that is also doing a lot of work with schools, providing mentoring and showing that there are routes other than just university.

Schools: Free Lunches and Milk

Lord Agnew of Oulton Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they intend to undertake a full impact assessment of the Free School Lunches and Milk, and School and Early Years Finance (Amendments Relating to Universal Credit) (England) Regulations 2018; and what further action they intend to take regarding those Regulations.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government listened carefully to the views that arose in the debate last week. I can confirm that our changes will help those on the lowest incomes. The Government have published an equalities impact statement, which was updated following our public consultation. We are committed to ensuring that at least 50,000 more children will benefit from free school meals by 2022, compared to the previous system, and that no child will lose out during the transition to universal credit. We have also reviewed the threshold following the rollout of universal credit to ensure that those who need support are benefiting.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, last week your Lordships’ House voted in favour of a regret Motion in the name of my noble friend Lord Bassam, calling for a delay in the implementation of regulations which, by the Government’s own admission, will result in more than 100,000 children receiving free school meals under the existing benefits system losing that right under universal credit. In passing, I should say that the vote was carried by 52% to 48%—a margin that may be familiar and one that the Government have consistently told us is decisive and must be respected. But the Government showed your Lordships’ House no respect, because, as the Minister said, guidance was issued two days later.

Ministers have been unable to explain why there has been no full impact assessment on such a controversial issue, not just the equalities impact assessment that the Minister mentioned. It is surely inconceivable that the Department for Education would not have undertaken an internal impact assessment on such a controversial issue. Will the Minister confirm to noble Lords that the outcome of that assessment was so damaging to the Government’s plans that it was suppressed, and will they now either publish it or undertake a proper, public, full impact assessment?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I want to reassure the noble Lord that we take very seriously the concerns raised about this important policy issue. As I mentioned, we published an updated equalities impact statement on 7 February. The majority of respondents agreed that there would be no adverse impact on the protected characteristics. The reason, really, is because we are improving the system, basing eligibility on income rather than the number of hours worked. All the existing recipients of free school meals whose parents move to universal credit will be protected for the full rollout period.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that there is no cap on those people receiving a heating allowance. As the Government are in a listening mode, does he not think that we should ensure that every child who is officially defined as being in poverty should receive a free meal?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, the free school meal mechanism was designed for those in the most serious stages of poverty, and with the transition to universal credit we have been very careful to ensure that the number of children who benefit from free school meals is retained. We have made an absolute commitment that during the transition period, any child eligible for free school meals will retain his or her entitlement, and that will continue if they are in the school system beyond the rollout period.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, last week the Minister told the House that only some £450 million of the total £3 billion cost of extending free school meals to all on universal credit would go on the meals themselves—a tiny fraction. Most of the cash will go on the pupil premium, which is linked to free school meal eligibility. Given that an income threshold would undermine the cardinal universal credit principle of making work pay and leave some children hungry, would it not make sense to go ahead with the threshold for the premium but provide free school meals for all children on universal credit, who are by definition in some need? Why do they have to be linked?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, if we did not have a cap on the eligibility for free school meals but relied purely on universal credit, over half of children would end up being eligible. We have a number of recipients on universal credit earning in excess of £40,000 a year.

I believe that the pupil premium has been a tremendous success. We have closed the attainment gap by 10% since it was introduced in 2011, and invested more than £11 billion in schools to encourage them to recruit pupils from the poorest backgrounds.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

What does my noble friend make of the claim that has been bandied about that 1 million children may be deprived of free school meals as a result of these reforms?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, that was a very theoretical figure. It simply presumed that there would be no cap on the numbers of recipients if the universal credit system carried on without any cap. It was misleading, and it has concerned a lot of parents out there, because it has set hares running that are simply not relevant. We have been meticulous in trying to ensure that recipients of free school meals today will continue to receive them. Indeed, we have made that commitment not just for the current phase of their education but up to 2022, or thereafter if they are still in the school system.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Government’s policy not mean that although present claimants are protected, future generations will not be and children will go hungry?

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[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, we must look at our Government’s broader track record since 2010. As I said when summing up the debate introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, last week, we have intervened in a number of areas for the most disadvantaged children in our society: 15 hours for disadvantaged two year-olds, 30 hours for working parents, early years pupil premium, disability access fund, tax-free childcare and shared parental leave. None of those are designed other than to help the most disadvantaged members of our society. I urge noble Lords to look at universal credit and free school meals in the context of all that we have done over the past eight years.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, if that is the case, why did a recent report point out that 1 million more children would be in poverty by 2020? How does the Minister justify the policy and answer that question?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

I am not familiar with those figures. However, we have done more than previous Governments to ensure that families are taken out of poverty—and we know that the route out of poverty is through work. The items on the list I gave a moment ago are all aimed to help parents become working parents and not to be exposed to poverty.

Free School Lunches and Milk, and School and Early Years Finance (Amendments Relating to Universal Credit) (England) Regulations 2018

Lord Agnew of Oulton Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2018 Lords Chamber

For those reasons, these regulations are not fit for purpose and not fit to be approved by your Lordships’ House. The Government must think again. Should my noble friend Lord Bassam decide to test the opinion of the House on his regret Motion, he will have the enthusiastic support of these Benches.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, on securing this important debate. I also thank many noble Lords for their contributions today. I will attempt to deal with the important points raised. This Government are committed to providing a healthy free school meal to the most disadvantaged children. I reassure the House that, contrary to some reports, no child will lose a meal as a result of these changes. In fact, more children will benefit by 2022 compared to the previous system.

Let me discuss the technicalities behind these regulations. As your Lordships will be aware, we are reforming the welfare system to ensure that work always pays by replacing a complex and fragmented system with one benefit—universal credit. Since April 2013, all families receiving universal credit have been entitled to free school meals. As my noble friend Lord Lexden said, we have on several occasions flagged up that this was a temporary measure—for example, in the Social Security Advisory Committee report on passported benefits in March 2012 and as repeated in April 2013. As the national rollout of universal credit accelerates, we are replacing this temporary measure with clear eligibility criteria for free school meals to ensure that they continue to be targeted at disadvantaged families.

Under the new eligibility criteria, we have estimated that by 2022 around 50,000 more children will benefit from a free school meal. I want to address the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, that this included population growth—it does not. In addition, our protections will ensure that no child receiving free school meals now, or gaining them during the universal credit rollout, will lose their entitlement until the end of the rollout, and beyond that until the end of their primary or secondary education. Children protected in this way are in addition to the 50,000 I have just mentioned.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

I am interested in this phasing argument. Say you are in primary school now, and get free school meals. If you fall outside the eligibility criteria, am I right in thinking that when you go to secondary school, in maybe two or three years’ time, you will then lose entitlement to that free school meal?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

The protections are in place until 2022. It is the longer of the period of being in a phase of education or 2022.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

So if you go to secondary school in 2023—which is quite possible if you are in primary school now—you will lose your free school meal. Is that what the noble Lord is telling us?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, it will depend on the circumstances of the family at that time.

I turn to the comments about the Office of the Children’s Commissioner, which published a briefing which assumed that the number of 50,000 more pupils who will benefit from free school meals does not take into account population growth. This is incorrect. Our analysis compares 2022 under a universal credit system to 2022 under the legacy benefits system, and population growth is by definition captured within this comparison. Furthermore, the Government have just published an updated equalities impact assessment, on 7 February. The majority of respondents to the consultation agreed with us that there would be no adverse impact on those with protected characteristics.

It is important to add that the £7,400 threshold relates to earned income. It does not include additional income through universal credit. A typical family earning around this threshold, depending on their exact circumstances, would have a total annual household income of between £18,000 and £24,000 once benefits are taken into account.

I take this opportunity to bust a myth. Some have claimed that these reforms will take away free school meals from 1 million children. This is simply not true. As my noble friend Lord Patten said, Channel 4 made this clear in its FactCheck article. It highlighted that this claim is based on an entirely hypothetical scenario in which universal credit was to continue being an automatic eligibility criteria. This was never going to be the case. Contrary to some people’s claims, this Government’s plan will result in more children benefiting, not fewer, and is more generous than the old system.

I also acknowledge the report published by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee on 1 March this year. We have listened to the committee’s comments and have responded to its report requesting that we publish the methodology supporting the modelling of the 50,000 children who will benefit by 2022. This has been published as part of the report.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, expressed concern about fluctuating income. We recognise that some households see their earnings fluctuate on a regular basis and have written into regulations that earnings should be checked over a period lasting up to three months, where the assessment period data is available. We are also exploring ways to ensure that families with very low incomes can receive free school meals during the initial assessment period for universal credit.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

What will happen with self-employed people and those on zero-hours contracts? I could not find that in the document.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

As I mentioned, we are assessing those who are on very low incomes to ensure that they can receive free school meals. That information will become available in due course.

I hope your Lordships will agree when I state the importance of targeting public resources where they are needed the most. If free school meals were extended to all families on universal credit, as some suggest, this would mean that by the end of the rollout around half of all pupils would become eligible. Some universal credit households are on middle incomes, sometimes exceeding £40,000 a year. We estimate that extending free school meals to all these families would cost in excess of £3 billion more a year by 2022, including the cost of the extra meals and associated school deprivation funding. The additional meals alone would cost in excess of £450 million a year. As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said, fairness requires Government to direct resources to where they are needed most. These are not the low-income families that we want to target with free school meals, and this is not a sensible or indeed fair use of public money.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, was concerned about the decoupling of free school meals from the pupil premium. The Government are very committed to providing equality of opportunity so every pupil, irrespective of their background, can realise their academic potential. Since the introduction of the pupil premium in 2011, the difference in the relative attainment of disadvantaged children and their peers has reduced across both the primary and secondary phases. It has narrowed by 10.5% at key stage 2 and 10% at key stage 4. This means better prospects for disadvantaged pupils and a more prosperous life as an adult.

Concerns were raised about conditionality and the use of sanctions. Sanctions are only ever used as a last resort. When considering whether a sanction is appropriate, a decision-maker will take all the claimant’s individual circumstances, including any health conditions or disabilities, and any evidence of good cause, into account before deciding whether a sanction is warranted.

I want to address some of the comments made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth and the noble Baronesses, Lady Sherlock and Lady Lister, dealing with cliff edges. Universal credit is designed to be more generous to claimants who take on additional hours, and the smooth taper rate gives incentives to do so because, unlike under the old system, people see more money in their pocket for every extra hour that they work. As my noble friend Lord Polak said, change does involve some disruption, but in general we are seeing a better system for people who want to achieve more and to work harder or to be able to have the opportunity to work. In addition, the well-established links between employment and improved health and well-being mean that there are considerable non-economic benefits for parents who increase their working hours.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

I do not think that the Minister has dealt with the absolutely crucial point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Freud, because if we do not have a mechanism that assimilates and deals with passporting benefits, there may be other outstanding issues that will come along and prove to be not cliff edges but waterfalls—I like that description. Will the Minister commit to refer the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Freud, to the Social Security Advisory Committee? That is the best vehicle for coming up with an evaluation of the work-disincentive effect that these waterfalls and cliff edges are guaranteed to introduce long-term and in perpetuity into universal credit, which is a bad thing for the Government’s own policy.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I am happy to relay those concerns and to take the matter away for further consideration.

Finally, I would like to highlight the five key improvements made by this Conservative-led Government for early years and child care. I give credit to the noble Lord, Lord Storey, as part of his party’s involvement in these important reforms, but I believe that it is incredibly important to put these into context. First, there is the 15 hours a week of free early education for disadvantaged two year-olds, which did not exist before 2010. Secondly, there is the universal 15 hours a week free childcare for three and four year-olds, now with the early years pupil premium. Thirdly, there are an additional 15 hours a week of childcare for working parents. Fourthly, through universal credit, up to 85% of childcare costs can be reimbursed, which is a higher percentage than was ever available under tax credits. Finally, nearly 1 million more families will gain support through tax-free childcare than through the existing voucher scheme.

I hope these five elements exemplify the efforts this Government have made to support vulnerable families. The continued provision of free school meals to children in households that might not be able to afford them remains of the utmost importance, and I would stress that—the utmost importance. Free school meals have always been provided to children who need them most, and we want to make sure that as many eligible children as possible continue to claim them.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that rousing conclusion. I have not really heard anything that convinces me that the Government have got their policy on this right. The Minister failed and ducked the issue of the cliff-edge point that was so eloquently addressed by my noble friend Lady Sherlock and others. The Minister actually supplemented and aided my argument on phasing when he said that, yes, it would depend on the individual’s circumstances in 2023, but if they move from one phase of education to the other then of course there would be an issue about whether they continue to have eligibility for free school meals.

I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Patten, for reminding us about fact-checking because, for me, he added to the confusion about figures. Part of the argument that we have been pushing over these last few weeks about free school meals is that nobody has quite got to the bottom of the Government’s policy because nobody can be absolutely certain about the data on which it relies. I was very heartened to hear the noble Lord, Lord Freud, express some concern about the waterfall and cliff edge, because that cuts to the core of the issue. We just do not know.

I have tabled a lot of Written Questions on this issue; most of them have not yet been answered. Most of them were directed at trying to find out at what stage of the rollout of universal credit we can expect to have hard numbers and data about the overall impact. I find that most worrying and troubling because the Government have not done a poverty assessment in this whole process. We do not know what the real impact will be of taking away free school meals from people, or what impact the new system will have on populations in the future. The failure to do a proper poverty assessment fatally flaws this new system.

I agree with the Minister and I agree with other noble Lords on the Benches opposite when they say that work should always pay. That is a laudable objective of universal credit, but I am not convinced that the levels are right or that the policy is set in the right direction. I am grateful to my noble friends Lady Lister and Lady Sherlock, the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, the noble Lords, Lord Storey and Lord Kirkwood, and my noble friend Lord Watson for their support in this debate.

I have done a bit of a fact check since I have been sitting here. The noble Lord, Lord Patten, went to Wimbledon College; the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, went to Framlingham College; the noble Lord, Lord Freud, went to Whitgift School and the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, went to Rugby. I bet there were not too many free school meals at those schools. This evening we should stand up for those who benefit from this, and I therefore wish to test the opinion of the House.

National Curriculum: Litter

Lord Agnew of Oulton Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to including litter picking in the National Curriculum for Year 6 children, to tidy up the roads and encourage civic responsibility.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)]

My Lords, as part of the science curriculum, children are taught about the scientific concepts that relate to the environment. At key stage 2, pupils should explore examples of the human impact on environments, which can include the negative impact of litter. At present, around 75% of schools in England are members of the Eco-Schools programme. We would like to increase participation in this programme overall and are working actively on anti-littering awareness, including participating in litter picks.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, that is a start and I am grateful to my noble friend. However, the shocking and disgusting proliferation of litter in our towns and countryside frankly shames this nation. While my proposal might meet with opposition and some people would understandably be very concerned about safety—and, indeed, some teachers might not like it very much—if all children spent a couple of hours clearing litter, it might not only have a gradual effect on attitudes but might in the long term have a positive educational impact. So will my noble friend please go back and look very seriously at this proposal or something similar and take radical action so that we no longer need be ashamed of the state of our highways and byways?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that litter is a scourge. That is why the Government launched the litter strategy last year, which sets out our aim to clean up the country and deliver a substantial reduction in litter within a generation. The litter strategy brings together communities, businesses, charities and, most importantly, schools to bring real change by focusing on three key themes: education and awareness, improving enforcement, and better cleaning and access to bins.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, given the high rate of illiteracy in many of our primary schools and the low rate of numeracy among 11 year-olds, which affects their subsequent education, does the noble Lord not agree that it would be far better to concentrate on the essentials of a good education and not expose our children to unnecessary danger doing foolish things that are not part of the curriculum?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, litter is a symptom of children’s respect for our society and environment—so a good education will address these two strands, which is what we do on the people side through the citizenship programmes and PSHE, and through the recent Tom Bennett review of behaviour in schools. As the noble Lord knows, on the environmental side we have just released the 25-year environment plan. We have the Eco-Schools project that I mentioned earlier. The Great British Spring Clean is under way and has been extended because of the bad weather. So I think the noble Lord’s judgment is a little harsh, because not having litter is a symptom of a good society.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, two weeks from today a penalty of £80 will be imposed on the owner of any vehicle from which litter is thrown. This is a big advance, because previously the offence could never be prosecuted. The Government have now made it subject to a civil penalty rather than classing it as a crime. However, does my noble friend accept that the penalties for fly tipping and the enforcement of those penalties are completely inadequate?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, this comes back to my earlier statement that this is about a sense of public responsibility and duty. I am delighted that the fines for littering from cars have been increased. My noble friend will also be aware that from January this year we banned the use of microbeads in cosmetic substances—so the whole thrust is to improve the protection of our environment. I applaud the most recent action to which he referred.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right to raise this issue and of course Keep Britain Tidy does a lot of work in schools. But now that we have light at the end of the tunnel, will the Minister not lobby the Government to provide more money to local authorities so that the highways, verges and streets that he is concerned about can be properly cleansed, with local authorities given the resources to carry that out? I know that this is not quite in the Minister’s brief but, while I am up perhaps I might ask—as some schools include this as part of PSHE—when the consultation on PSHE will be concluded, and will we have an opportunity to discuss the recommendations?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, in relation to the noble Lord’s first question, if we can change attitudes we will not need to spend large sums of taxpayers’ money cleaning up the litter left by careless people. In relation to PSHE, the review closed on 12 February and we had a record number of responses. We will be replying to that as soon as possible. It is also worth noting that an additional requirement that we have of schools is for the social, moral, spiritual and cultural development of children. This is a high-level duty that sits outside PSHE. It is written into legislation and also into the academy funding agreement, and it includes issues such as respect for the environment.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

I am wary of criticising the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, given his service in the SAS, but I suspect that there are many parents and not a few children today who, having heard him, are quite relieved that there are mercifully few chimneys left in this country. I wonder whether the noble Lord is aware that it is extremely rare for the broad and balanced year 6 curriculum not to include civic responsibility, so it is not a problem. There are many great teachers in state schools in this country, not least Andria Zafirakou, who was named as the winner of the Global Teacher Prize just a few days ago. That is a tremendous credit to her work at Alperton Community School in north London. I suspect that most teachers in this country would welcome a robust statement from the Minister that teachers should be allowed to get on and teach. Will he give that assurance?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that it is very important that teachers are allowed to teach. The core of our reforms over the last seven or eight years has been the granting of autonomy to schools and the freeing up of the key stage 3 curriculum to give space for the teaching of things that are not directly linked to exams. I come back to my general theme: much of education is about producing a spiritual sense and a sense of belonging in society—so I agree that we should not be mandating additional individual activities.

Children: Missed Education

Lord Agnew of Oulton Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they plan to respond to the National Children’s Bureau report, Children Missing Education, published on 31 January; and what plans they have to improve the collection of national-level data on such children.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)]

My Lords, in September 2016 we introduced a duty on schools and local authorities to work jointly when carrying out inquiries to establish the whereabouts of children to ensure that they are safe and receiving suitable education. We have a commitment to review the impact of these regulations by September 2019. The review will take into account the points raised in the National Children’s Bureau report issued in January this year.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that response. He will be aware that almost 50,000 children were missing from education between 2017 and 2018. How will the Government build an accurate picture of who these children are, where they live and what their needs are? How will they form a strategy to deal with this problem when there is no national data on these children?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, we believe that part of the reason for the awareness of more children being home educated is as a result of the duties we placed on schools in the 2016 guidance, which I mentioned in my first Answer. The next stage is to ensure that local authorities are using all their existing powers to investigate cases of where home education might be occurring or where children are missing. Yesterday, in our integration strategy, we announced further measures on that.

[Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Con)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that these children will form a high priority for the teaching of English, reading and writing, given that they are most likely to be among the three-quarters of a million people in the United Kingdom who do not speak our native language?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

Obviously, children who are missing from education are one of the highest priority categories that we have to worry about. In the integration strategy document announced yesterday, we launched a consultation on the guidance and enforcement of independent school standards—a lot of children can end up in such small schools—and guidance on unregistered schools, which will deal with similar issues.

[Lord Touhig (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, some groups particularly at risk of missing education include disabled children, those with special educational needs, young offenders and children in care. Surely these young people should be known to social services, the police, doctors or other authorities. Will the Minister tell us what the Government are doing to encourage these authorities to liaise with the education authority to ensure that these children get the education that they need and deserve for a better life?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, it is already a requirement following the issue of our guidelines in 2016 that, for any child registered as SEN, permission must be sought from the local authority to move them to home education. We are strengthening that guidance, as announced yesterday, and have indicated that we will carry out an exclusion review, which will of course begin with these vulnerable children.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness; I did not see her standing up. In England and Wales, 70% of children excluded from school have learning difficulties. Many exclusions are not even officially recorded—they are soft exclusions. We are in danger of creating an underclass of young people who are lacking basic education, are alienated from society and might become criminalised. Unlike the point made by my noble friend Lady Massey, this data is known and is available. What are the Government doing about it?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, it is important first to differentiate between temporary and permanent exclusions; the ones of concern are, I think, the permanent exclusions. The figures on that have not increased dramatically in the past few years—it has gone up from 0.07% to 0.08%. However, as I mentioned in my earlier Answer to the noble Baroness, we have announced an exclusion review, which will look at many of these issues. The other point I would like to raise is that we have opened a number of alternative provision free schools over the past few years, and they are dealing with some of these issues.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that some of these children will be denied any form of education and, perhaps even more serious, those who are being denied it are also being excluded from the safeguarding arrangements in this country and therefore are exceptionally vulnerable to abuse, neglect and exploitation?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I accept that this is a vulnerable group of children, but local authorities have a number of powers of intervention. The guidance that we will be issuing shortly will clarify that to ensure that they aware of all the tools that they have available to them.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, we are a tolerant and diverse society in which home schooling plays a part. However, there should be a register of these institutions to ensure better safeguarding, and certainly premises should be looked at from a health and safety point of view. Who is driving the agenda for secularisation? Will the Minister remind Ofsted that the humanists are not the only minority group with opinions? Does he agree it is bizarre that it is they who are the most intolerant and are being evangelical in wanting everyone to conform to their views?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, we try to represent a broad coalition in education. I am proud that we live in one of the most tolerant and inclusive countries in the world—as I said in an article in the Times today—and we have to meet the concerns of all people. The humanists have to be reasonable, as do any of the other religious groups, and my job is to ensure that we reach a compromise for all concerned and that children are safe.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

The Minister referred to home education in his Answer to my noble friend Lady Massey, although that is not mentioned in the Question. He avoided the Question on the collection of data, which is important. The Government do not collect data on the number of children whose parents claim they are being educated at home or elsewhere. The same is true of national statistics on unregistered schools, which are an increasing problem. No one knows how many children are being educated in unregistered schools, although Ofsted estimates it is as many as 6,000. Surely the time is now right for the Government to place a legal obligation on parents to register children not attending school, as proposed by my noble friend Lord Soley in his Bill which is going through your Lordships’ House. Will the Minister signify his support for that?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, as I made clear at Second Reading, we are aware of these concerns and have been motivated by the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Soley. We shall watch its progress in Committee with interest. I am not able at this stage to give a unilateral commitment on registration, but I am sympathetic to the arguments made by the noble Lord opposite. We have to be aware of the nuancing around this. For example, if we insist on registration, what do we do about the parents who refuse to register? If that does not solve the problem, they remain missing. What do we do with parents like the one who said in the newspapers the other day that she would go to prison rather than co-operate in any way? This is an open area for discussion, and I have an open mind.

Schools: Outdoor Classroom Day

Lord Agnew of Oulton Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)]

My Lords, learning outside the classroom can provide children with stimulating experiences, building on knowledge gained through formal lessons. Teachers may take opportunities within the national curriculum for such learning, and events such as this serve a useful purpose in raising awareness for outdoor learning. We leave it to teachers to use their professional judgment to decide how to plan and deliver their lessons, including whether to participate in events such as Outdoor Classroom Day.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his positive response and for recognising that there are benefits. However, does he accept that the benefits are much greater than he has suggested? Several studies have shown that academic achievement is raised, behaviour is improved and everything across the range of children’s activities benefits from substantial time spent in outdoor learning? Does he agree with Sir David Attenborough, the patron of Learning through Landscapes, which runs Outdoor Classroom Day in the UK, that unless children understand nature they will not be able to protect it when it is their generation’s turn to do so? Will he ensure that his department introduces a minimum time for children to spend outdoors in a quality, natural environment?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Baroness that connection to nature is vital. I grew up on a farm. At 14 years old I was sent out by the farm manager to do some straw burning on my own and I ended up needing 13 fire engines to deal with the issue. I learned on that day that you do not light a fire with the wind behind you and that if you cut a firebreak it needs to be commensurate with the strength of the wind. I learned that smoke is as dangerous as fire. So you do not have to convince me. We are moving forward: in the January environment plan we announced £10 million of funding for initiatives including school visits to natural environments, the nature-friendly schools programme and an expansion in care farm places, which I hope I can expand on in a moment.

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the enormous work that is done between the farming community and local schools, in particular with the agricultural societies that are all around the country? They host open days at their shows to which schoolchildren, particularly those of primary school age, are encouraged to go. One difficulty is the cost of getting a bus to transport the children, but it is a very good scheme. There is a lot going on apart from on the day that my noble friend Lady Miller mentioned.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. Open Farm Sunday is a very good example of this. Last year, 270,000 visitors visited more than 350 farmers on one day and it is happening again this year. Indeed, it happened with my own farm manager on his farm. He had 4,000 visitors, mostly children. Such initiatives are educating children about life in the countryside.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords, should outdoor education not form part of personal, social and health education in schools, which has recently become mandatory, developing, for example, self-esteem and self-confidence, as well as knowledge about fire and so on? Should this not be considered by the Government as part of their scheme?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, we have recently initiated a consultation on personal, social and health education. The call for evidence closed on 12 February and we expect to consult on draft guidance by the summer of this year. I will certainly take on board the comments of the noble Baroness to ensure that we are including such useful things as she suggested.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister briefly mentioned care farms. Does he agree that they are an ideal way of encouraging children who have become disaffected with school and, indeed, disaffected with society, bringing them back into society when they are not suited to desk learning? They can learn through such things as looking after animals, growing plants and working in forestry. This is an ideal way of bringing them back from the desert they have found themselves in.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

The noble Countess is correct. Preparing for these Questions is always a somewhat anxiety-inducing exercise, but it is a way to learn about how Britain works. I admit that a week ago I had never heard of care farms and now I discover that there are 230 in England and that some 300,000 children are visiting them. We have committed to trebling that number of children. There is strong evidence to show that they can help children with mental issues; they can help to improve mood, and reductions in depression and anxiety can flow from these farms, so I was hugely encouraged to discover them.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, has the Minister heard of forest schools? There is a strong movement of forest schools in the UK: given the Minister’s own formative experience of outdoor education, how can we encourage the development of more forest schools? Maybe there is an opportunity, with the Government’s announcement of the northern forest, to ensure that its development includes outdoor education opportunities for young people.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, again, forest schools were a new discovery for me this week. I gather that we have some 400 of them in the country and that they play a very useful role in education about the outdoors for children. I can refer the noble Lord to one organisation that I used to be a trustee of 10 years ago. It is called the Country Trust and its purpose is to organise visits, particularly from inner-city schools, to farms and indeed to forests. So I support the sentiments of the noble Lord and anything we can do to encourage this is good.

Schools: Music

Lord Agnew of Oulton Excerpts

Wednesday 7th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Clancarty]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will take steps to improve opportunities for the study of music in schools.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government believe that all pupils should have access to an excellent, well-rounded education. Music is an integral part of a pupil’s education and a compulsory subject in the national curriculum at key stages 1 to 3. Between 2016 and 2020, we will provide £300 million of funding for music education hubs to ensure that all pupils have the opportunity to learn an instrument, sing and perform regularly and have access to clear routes of progression.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that, in the last year alone, take-up of GCSE music in England fell by 8%. Is he aware that the University of Sussex survey of 6,500 schools found that teachers, who should certainly know, held the EBacc primarily responsible for this decline—a view supported by a recent Education Policy Institute report? Will the Minister agree to meet to discuss these concerns with myself, other interested Peers and Bacc for the Future, whose members include many organisations who are worried about the increasing marginalisation of music in our schools?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

To reassure the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, I will be happy to meet with him and colleagues from this Chamber to discuss the matter further. However, there is no evidence that arts subjects have declined as a result of the introduction of the EBacc. Indeed, the proportion of time spent studying music has remained broadly stable since 2010. Since the EBacc was announced, the proportion of pupils in state-funded schools taking at least one arts subject has also remained stable. I have a very strong personal commitment to music. My own father was cured of a debilitating stammer through learning to sing and so breathe properly. I am doing everything I can to encourage music in the system.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very interested in what the Minister just said about his own family experience. While I fully accept that there is an issue about the academic study of music in schools, music also makes an important contribution to the health of schools as communities. As there is so much concern at the moment about child and adolescent mental health, would he accept that it is important that there are opportunities in schools for children to participate in music for the therapeutic and social benefits it conveys, and that that is particularly true of performing music in groups?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

I agree with the noble Baroness entirely. Some case studies that I pulled in ahead of this Question bear out what she said. In my own academy trust, the Inspiration Trust, I appointed a director of music just before I took on this role, and I asked him to give me his early feedback—he started only in September. He said: “On listening and music appreciation, the pupils find listening easier and can listen for longer; pupils more readily try new things. Improved multitasking skills: pupils react, listen, move, hum along to music while focused on their main task”. With regard to extracurricular ensemble, he talks about pupils being better able to understand commitment, time management, perseverance and co-operation. So I completely agree with the noble Baroness.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Has my noble friend noted that nearly 650 independent and state schools are now collaborating in the teaching and performing of music, and would he agree that further scope exists to increase these joint ventures as independent schools seek to play a larger part in the education system as a whole, in accordance with the Government’s wishes?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

I agree with my noble friend. Indeed, apart from the 641 independent schools in music partnerships, 492 independent schools invite pupils to attend lessons or performances, and 51 second music teaching staff to state schools. Since I took on this post, I have met once the chairman of the Independent Schools Council, and I am meeting him again soon to review collaboration between the two sectors.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a trustee of a musical education charity, the VCM Foundation. Can the Minister give us figures on the numbers of music teachers in schools? We as a foundation have discovered that large numbers of primary schools, in particular, now have no teachers with any musical experience. We and some others are now helping to train teachers without musical experience to ensure that all schools have the opportunity to sing together and to learn to work together in the way that one can do through music.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, the most recent figures I have for 2016 show that there is only a 0.5% vacancy rate for teachers of music in state schools.

[Lord Palmer (CB)]

My Lords, what steps are being taken to ensure that the £5-a-week charge for students taking GCSE music, as at Bingley, for example, will not become more widespread?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I believe that when that was raised in the media recently, the school in question removed the charge, and I am not aware of any other examples of that happening. Certainly, if the noble Lord is aware, I would be pleased to hear from him and I will investigate it.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Kennedy once played the bassoon in the London schools orchestra. The chances of a young person from his school in Peckham doing so this year are considerably less because of the cuts to funding in many state schools for arts and creative subjects. Despite what the Minister said, I concur with the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty—in 2017 the number of pupils taking GCSE music is down to an all-time low of 5.5%, which is a very serious situation.

I have told the Minister before that Labour will introduce an arts pupil premium to ensure that every child in a primary school in England has the chance to learn a musical instrument, go to the theatre, or take part in dance and drama. The funding necessary for this cannot be escaped by the Government. Will the Minister say why the facilities in state schools are still so much worse than they are in many private schools—a situation which would be reversed by Labour’s arts pupil premium—or are the Conservative Government quite content for the study of music to be the preserve of the wealthy?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, spending on music and cultural education programmes has been stable for the last four years—it declined in 2013-14 and 2014-15, but we increased it. The noble Lord asked me a Question about EBacc in November, and I gave the response then that we probably have different priorities. I believe EBacc has been an enormous tool for improving social mobility in children from less advantaged backgrounds. We are seeing a dramatic increase in the number of children who are studying EBacc subjects such as science, geography, history and modern foreign languages. The reason we were so keen on this is that it provides an opportunity for these children to have a shot at a good university. We know good universities have facilitating subjects, which tend to be the EBacc subjects. Overall, the commitment to music remains and 120 music hubs are supporting some 14,000 ensembles across the country.

Schools: Indoctrination

Lord Agnew of Oulton Excerpts

Tuesday 6th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Storey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that children and young people are not being indoctrinated in schools.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)]

My Lords, extremism has no place in our society. That is why we changed the law on the requirements on schools so that they have to actively promote the fundamental British values of democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs. If there are any allegations of schools promoting ideologies or discrimination in the classroom, we will not hesitate to take action.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

I hear what the Minister says, but I am sure that he will agree that we should not allow religious extremism to pervert our education system or narrow the minds of our children. When unregistered schools are closed down, they often morph into a form of home-school tuition. Is not the time now right to make sure that home tuition is registered?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, I note the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Soley, and indeed of the noble Lord, Lord Storey. In our debate on Second Reading of the Bill promoted by the noble Lord, Lord Soley, we made it clear that we recognised the concerns that had led to the introduction of the Bill in the first place. That is why we are producing for consultation a revision of the guidance for local authorities which clarifies that their powers in relation to home education often go further than is appreciated. We expect to produce the draft guidance for consultation in the next few weeks.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, what consultations and discussions has the Minister had with the Security Service and with counterterrorism policing about the very high incidence of the children of people who are subjects of interest for counterterrorism investigations turning out to be home schooled? Does that not suggest that there is a prima facie case for much more substantial registration and regulation of that sector, in particular to avoid extremist grooming in very young children?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

I note the noble Lord’s concern. We addressed many of these points in the debate on Second Reading of the Bill promoted by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. We have just received legal advice on the powers of local authorities to investigate children who are being home educated. It is clear that there are more powers, but I do not think that they have been clearly delineated and explained to local authorities. That is the point of the guidance that we will be issuing shortly and we will be looking for feedback from local authorities on it.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that all the main religions should be taught in schools and that, if a school is not doing that, it is a failing school? Should not the teaching of religion be in the context of today’s times rather than literally in the language of outdated texts so that they cannot be manipulated for the purposes of extremism? Does the Minister further agree that the teaching should focus not so much on customs and rituals but on the underlying ethos so that it becomes self-evident that the different religions are all pushing in the same direction?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, as all of you will know, faith schools play a very important part in the fabric of our state education. We have more than 4,000 Church of England schools and 2,000 Catholic schools. All the guidance around education and religion is about tolerance and understanding it in the context of our own society. The recent provision for the promotion of fundamental British values builds on that. As noble Lords may be aware, we now have specialist Ofsted inspection officers who look specifically for any incidence of where religion is not taught in that context.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, would the Minister care to comment on the Written Answer I received on 21 June last year, which admitted that the Government have no idea how much violent Islamic teaching is taking place in our madrassas, nor indeed how many of them there are; and furthermore, that the Government do not intend to find out, or do anything about it? Is that still government policy?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, between January 2016 and August 2017, with additional funding from us, Ofsted identified 125 unregistered schools. It visited 38 of those, 34 of which have now closed. Two more have closed since they were investigated and two are still under investigation. We have appointed I think 36 Prevent officers at the last count to support local authorities in areas of concern to provide advice to schools on exactly these areas. I am concerned about this. I am the department’s Minister with responsibility for extremism, so it is one of my main briefs. I believe we are doing a lot, and we continue to be alert to where more needs to be done.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, could the Minister say what support the Government can offer to head teachers who face difficulties when they come across extremism and indoctrination in their schools? There have been cases of intimidation and heads being prevented from doing their jobs. Could a support network and a hotline perhaps be set up to help them?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, in April 2015 we established a counterextremism helpline to avoid exactly the situation that the noble Baroness raises. Teachers can contact it for confidential advice. We have had more than 450 uses of this helpline from educationists and other members of the public.

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

My Lords, could the noble Lord give the House some statistics relating to the number of children who have been referred under the Prevent strand of the counterterrorism strategy from schools? Could he give details of how many have been referred and how many were then followed up with further action? Could he also give details of how many were within the last 12 months and how many within the 12 months before that? Could he also break it down between religious extremism and far-right extremism?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, unfortunately I do not have all that information to hand, but I will of course write to my noble friend.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, when schools close, is there any attempt by the Government to follow up where the students go to see whether they are simply going to other schools that reopen and teach in the same way?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, we introduced some statutory changes to requirements on schools quite recently. It is now a requirement that a school notify the local authority of what are called deletions from the register, whether the parent has formally notified the school of the destination of the child or not. Local authorities are made aware of closing schools in those situations.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the House that my wife is a Prevent adviser on further education. Will the noble Lord take the opportunity to commend the head of Ofsted for her very rigorous action in the last few months? At times the head of Ofsted might have welcomed more ministerial support for what she is doing, taking up the point made by the noble Baroness. I understand that Ofsted feels that to tackle the problems effectively it needs more powers. In the light of his response on home education, will the Minister look at whether legislative changes need to be made to give the chief inspector more authority?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, all these areas are always under consideration. I am meeting the chief inspector later this week and we have it as an agenda item.

[Baroness Afshar (CB)]

My Lords, is it only Islam that is being reviewed as extremist or is there a concern that some other religions might also be extremist and, if so, which religion other than Islam is defined as extremist?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, we need to discern between extremism that indoctrinates for hatred and violence and those very conservative faiths that teach a very narrow curriculum; and, indeed, that is part of the job of the Prevent officers. It is not about pursuing one particular religion but about ensuring, as the noble Lord said earlier, that religion is taught in a tolerant way that is relevant to our society.