Social Media: Online Anonymity

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking, or intend to take, to deal with online abuse by people using anonymous social media accounts.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, online anonymity is an important part of a free and open internet—but being anonymous online does not give anyone the right to abuse others. The Government have made it clear that more needs to be done to tackle all kinds of online abuse. We will publish a joint DCMS-Home Office White Paper this winter, setting out a range of legislative and non-legislative measures and establishing clear standards for tech companies to help keep UK citizens safe.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept and understand the huge concern of law-abiding citizens that people are hiding behind anonymous accounts and making threats to kill, to rape, to assault and to bully, using racist, anti-Semitic and Islamophobic language? The platforms that host these people have done nowhere near enough to deal with this problem. If they will not get their own house in order, the Government must make them, through legislation. Will the Minister impress on his colleagues in government that the forthcoming White Paper must make that clear to them?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am happy to be able to agree with the noble Lord. Let us be clear: when abuse exceeds the threshold and moves into criminality, in most cases so-called anonymous perpetrators are actually traceable, so they can be prosecuted according to the law. I recognise the public disquiet about this, and, as the noble Lord said, we are considering what more can be done, by non-legislative means but also, when required, by legislation—and there will be legislation. We will consider what to do about anonymous abuse specifically, and we will address that in the online harms White Paper, which, as I said, is due out this winter.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend recall that we got a dramatic improvement in attitudes towards health and safety when we made the directors of the company personally liable for it? Should we not do the same for internet service providers?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

One of the things we are considering is a duty of care. That might include holding directors personally responsible. We have not decided that yet, but it is certainly an idea worth considering. As it is a White Paper that is coming out this winter, there will be a consultation on it, so we welcome views from my noble friend.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the Law Commission, in its scoping report last November into abusive and online communications, said that one of the key barriers to the pursuit of online defenders was,

“tracing and proving the identity of perpetrators, and the cost of doing so”.

I heard what the Minister said about the White Paper’s contents, but will the Government include a provision allowing the stripping of anonymity in circumstances of online crime? Have the Government had any discussions with the police or other enforcement agencies to understand the issues they face in tracking these perpetrators and bringing them to justice?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It is certainly something worth considering in the White Paper, but as far as dealing with the police is concerned, the Home Office is working with policing to identify ways to tackle this when it goes over the threshold into criminality. These are relatively new crimes; the police will have to evolve methods to deal with them. We have also worked with the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. There is a digital intelligence investigation programme, aiming to ensure policing has the ability to investigate the digital elements of all crime types. Also, the Home Office is working with the College of Policing to drive improvements in overall police capability to investigate and prosecute online offences.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, going back to the Minster’s original response, in what sense does he believe anonymity helps freedom of speech?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

If, for example, you are in an authoritarian regime—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

We are not.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I said “if”—we do not think only about this country. That is one example. If you are a 15 year-old girl who is being abused, being able to go on to the internet to ask for health advice or let people know about it is an example of where anonymity can sometimes help.

[Baroness Fall (Con)]

My Lords, our children grow up in a world that is under huge pressure from social media. They never get a day, or, indeed, a night off. This is a world where no one seems to take accountability or responsibility for what is said at all. While we all argue among ourselves about what to do, I urge the Minister and those drawing up the White Paper to start with the simple but powerful principle of transparency. We should not allow people to hide behind the veil of anonymity.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

As I said, sometimes anonymity is the right thing, but I take on board what my noble friend says. We definitely believe that tech and social media companies need to take more responsibility. We have said that. The Secretary of State plans to visit them to outline some of the measures we propose to take. There is absolutely no doubt that there is general feeling in the public that something needs to be done to control these large social media companies. People have to take responsibility. We will make sure that that happens, with legislation if necessary.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, will the Minister get a copy of the speech made today by Tom Watson, the deputy leader of the Labour Party, on this subject, and consider each of his proposals carefully?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

As I said earlier, this is a White Paper and we are having a consultation. We certainly welcome views from everyone. I will make sure that the letter is looked at in the department—I probably will not even have to tell them to do that. However, we are trying to build a consensus. We have to take into account libertarian views, the need to preserve innovation for tech companies—which is so useful to our economy—and to protect vulnerable people, especially children.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, could we return to the issue of policing resources, which was alluded to earlier? There are two areas which have serious concerns for the police and also, therefore, perhaps for the Government. One is the recovery of digital evidence, which has already proved challenging in rape cases and other sexual offences where mobile phones have to be examined in great detail. The second point is that this is a people process as well as a hardware process. Both require lots of people, and at the moment, this explosion of criminal offences means that it is demanding an awful lot of people and cost at a time when police numbers are dropping. It is something that the Government have to consider seriously.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Regarding the first part of the noble Lord’s question, we are supporting the Digital Public Contact, which will deliver a single online home for policing and provide a secure digital channel for the public to upload evidential material in a digital format. I have explained what we are doing with the College of Policing.

As for the second part of the noble Lord’s question, my noble friend the Home Office Minister is sitting next to me and I am sure has listened to his point.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, are the Government really prepared to take these companies on? I pray in aid the Government’s approach to getting them to pay proper tax in this country. Despite the huffing and puffing we have heard from the Chancellor, no action has been taken. Can the Minister assure me that the Government are prepared to take them on?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

In the area that we are responsible for, regarding online harms and safety, we are. As far as tax is concerned, that is a different matter and I do not have the responsibility for it. However, I am sure that the Chancellor will listen to the noble Lord’s views.

Broadcasting: Public Sector Content

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, Ofcom has consulted on proposed changes to the linear EPG code and on how the prominence regime may need to change to ensure that public service content remains accessible, regardless of how consumers access it. That consultation closed in October 2018 and we look forward to receiving its findings in due course. If Ofcom makes it clear that there is a problem which needs fixing by legislation, we will look to bring that forward.

[Baroness Benjamin]

My Lords, children are being increasingly exposed to inappropriate content on social media, and public service broadcasting plays an important role in providing parents with a safe, trusted space where children can access high-quality, entertaining educational content—especially now that the new BFI contestable funding will be available to programme makers. However, it is difficult to find these PSB channels because no two electronic programme guides are the same. They are confusing and very frustrating. Does the Minister agree that it is essential we update the EPG rules as a matter of urgency, to ensure that viewers can easily access this excellent PSB content?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree that PSB content is important—in fact, 83% of people think that children’s provision by public service broadcasters is important. Ofcom’s consultation on the rules for prominence and proposed changes to the linear EPG includes a proposal for prominence for children’s PSB channels. Ofcom already has the powers to review and revise the code, so any final decision on changes to the linear prominence regime is a matter for it.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, it is unusual for both of my questions, carefully prepared, to have been answered before I put them, but that will not stop me asking the Minister to repeat the assurance he gave that, if the Ofcom report suggests that legislation is necessary, the Government will do it.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I can do better than that. I will repeat what the Secretary of State said to the DCMS shadow Secretary of State:

“The Government has made clear that if the Ofcom report concludes that there is a problem with the current prominence regime that needs fixing with the legislation, then we will look to bring that forward”.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, does public sector content include “Songs of Praise”, which the BBC insists on moving about to different times on Sunday, presumably with the ambition that it should eventually lose its audience altogether?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

As my noble friend knows well, editorial decisions are for the BBC, not the Government.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

My Lords, the Sky Q box prioritises access to its services over PSB catch-up services. Many television manufacturers have partnered with Netflix to prioritise its services on their channel controllers. Is the Minister not concerned that the PSB digital channels, paid for with public money, are losing out in the battle for channel prominence to the video-on-demand giants?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I recognise that most of what we have talked about today is for linear services. Of course, a change is taking place: people now have subscriptions for watching on-demand programmes on their internet browsers. This creates a number of challenges and we have agreed that, if Ofcom makes suggestions that take that into account, we will bring legislation forward when the time arises.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)]

My Lords, I fear I will ask the Minister to repeat, yet again, what he has said. Does he not agree that prominence is not a perk for PSBs but a fair and essential exchange? I do not know how many of you listened this morning to Radio 4’s “Start the Week”—a really quite frightening public service broadcast programme about the tech titans’ struggle for our individual attention. Will the Government commit to supporting the urgently needed updating of prominence rules through legislation?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I think I have done that—twice. We are aware that the technology is changing, and noble Lords might be interested to hear an example. More UK households now own a voice-activated smart speaker than own Britain’s third most popular pet: a rabbit.

Ofcom: RT News Channel

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the findings of Ofcom’s investigations into the RT news channel.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, investigations into RT are a matter for Ofcom as the independent communications regulator. On 20 December 2018, Ofcom announced that the RT news channel broke broadcasting rules in seven programmes. Ofcom is minded to consider a statutory sanction, and it is right that it makes decisions without government interference. On 17 January, RT announced that it will be seeking a judicial review of Ofcom’s findings. It is vital that as a society we remain vigilant regarding the spread of harmful disinformation, and Ofcom has strong powers to tackle it where it occurs in broadcast news.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am really grateful to the Minister for a very helpful Answer. Does he agree that it is ironic that RT takes advantage of the freedoms in this country that are not available in Russia? Will he nevertheless take some government action to stop RT, the Russian television agency, the Sputnik news agency, based in Edinburgh and London, and indeed all the social networks spreading the Kremlin’s fake news throughout this United Kingdom?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I thank the noble Lord. I agree, although I would not want to comment specifically on RT, for the reasons I have mentioned. However, in 2017 the Prime Minister said that the Russian state has been launching,

“a sustained campaign of cyber espionage and disruption”,

which has included,

“meddling in elections and hacking the Danish Ministry of Defence and the Bundestag”.

Therefore, I agree with the noble Lord’s view.

Regarding disinformation generally, we are working with the DfE to include information for schoolchildren on how to make judgments about what they read on social media, and a consultation will be coming out this year. We are also launching a programme of adult internet literacy, which will be very important in enabling older members of society to understand how this new technology works. In addition, we are engaged with international partners, such as the G7, the UN and the Council of Europe, but, above all, we are introducing the online harms White Paper, part of which will deal with tackling disinformation. Generally speaking, we will look at illegal harms and the much more difficult area of harms that are legal.

[Viscount Ridley (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend take into account the fact that RT and other Russian actors have produced strong propaganda against the shale gas industry and that this is having a real effect on the debate in this country?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

As I have said, RT is regulated by Ofcom, which is independent of government, and I know that it will do its job.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

I declare an interest as a series producer for the Smithsonian Channel and CNN. A week after the ruling on RT, the personal details and photographs of journalists working in Russia for the BBC were leaked online. This action was publicly condoned by President Putin’s press office and was seen as an act—indeed, part of a pattern—of intimidation. At a time when the BBC’s Russian service had seen an annual increase of 20% in its audience, what are the Government doing to protect the BBC World Service and the Russian service within the Russian Federation?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The BBC’s charter was renewed for 10 years. Its job is to provide impartial news, and Ofcom regulates those services. It has been given the financial backing to do that—£3.8 million of licence-payers’ money. I believe that an extra £219 million has been provided over the next four years to increase the number of Russian language programmes that the BBC World Service can produce.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

It is clear that Ofcom is doing a thorough and effective job on this very difficult case. We hope it will move forward in an appropriate way. Does this case not raise the wider question of whether the holder of the broadcast licence here is a fit and proper person to carry out the duties for which it is responsible? The issue came up recently during the Sky takeover; there was common ground in the House that the existing rules, both through statute and through the precedents set in previous cases, mean that this is not an effective test. Are the Government going to do anything about that?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not want to talk specifically about RT for the reasons I mentioned. Ofcom has sanctions which can include fines, suspension or revocation of a licence if Ofcom deems that suitable.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that Ofcom licenses many hundreds of broadcasters in London? This is a good example of what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, often refers to as Britain’s soft power. Is it not very important that we leave Ofcom to the job it was given with the powers it was given? The idea that some kind of political or government pressure was involved does not set a good precedent with regard to closing radio or television stations. We should let RT make its case to Ofcom, let Ofcom use its powers and then see what happens.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I completely agree with the noble Lord. That is why I said in my initial Answer that it is right for Ofcom to make decisions without government interference.

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister is right that Ofcom is not responsible to the Government. but am I right in saying that it is responsible to Parliament?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am not sure; I do not know whether it is responsible in a statutory sense but of course ultimately Parliament can decide what it wants. The main point is that, in a democratic society such as ours, the regulator of the news and of broadcasters should not be linked to government, especially the Executive. That is the situation we have now and I believe that it is working well.

Florence Nightingale: Bicentenary

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Crisp]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to commemorate the bicentenary of the birth of Florence Nightingale in 2020.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, the Department of Health and Social Care is working with the Chief Nursing Officer for England on plans for the occasion, and will focus on rightly celebrating those in the nursing professions. Plans include supporting the Nursing Now campaign across the NHS in England. In addition, the Florence Nightingale Museum—located across the river within St Thomas’ Hospital—is in early discussion with partners, including the Heritage Lottery Fund, regarding a number of events to mark the bicentenary.

[Lord Crisp (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his encouraging response, and I had better declare my interest as chairman of Nursing Now, which he just referred to. Florence Nightingale is a truly global figure —the foundational and inspirational figure for nursing and health systems worldwide. This is an enormous opportunity for the UK. We should be using this bicentenary not just to celebrate nursing and other great nurses such as Mary Seacole, but as an opportunity to promote the contribution the UK makes to health globally. This is a great post-Brexit—I assume it will be post-Brexit—opportunity to promote UK expertise in everything in health, from academia to commerce. The World Health Organization is debating her bicentenary today, and will be making a major announcement about what it intends to do. The UK needs to do the same.

Does the Minister agree that this is a tremendous opportunity for the UK that we must grasp? Will the Government join the WHO, Nursing Now and others to promote nursing and support plans to develop young nurses worldwide?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that this is a very good opportunity to support nursing both in this country and abroad. I pay tribute to those in the nursing profession; those of us who have had care from nurses will understand what I mean.

As I said, the NHS is celebrating the year of the nurse in 2020 and will be organising a number of activities, culminating in an international conference organised by the Florence Nightingale Foundation in October 2020. As far as Nursing Now abroad is concerned, I know the noble Lord is meeting the DfID Minister on 5 February to ask for more practical support. I can confirm that we support the aims of the Nursing Now campaign and its promoting the importance of health workers to achieve the goal of universal health coverage.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)]

My Lords, Florence Nightingale was ahead of her time in realising the importance of data and statistics—in her day I think it was called information and relevant points. Does the Minister realise that today is Data Privacy Day, and that my Private Member’s Bill, the Health and Social Care (National Data Guardian) Bill, has received Royal Assent? Does he agree that this is a very good sign for the health service going forward?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, as the DCMS Minister, I am aware of course that it is Data Privacy Day. Council of Europe Convention 108 is the only binding international instrument which is signed by 54 states, including Russia. Data Privacy Day celebrates the anniversary of its signing in 1981 and I agree with my noble friend that it is an important day. She is right that Florence Nightingale was an important statistician, and she was the first female member of the Royal Statistical Society in 1858. The national data guardian legislation that my noble friend took through the House as a Private Member’s Bill is excellent because it promotes trust in health data so that we can gain the maximum benefit from it.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Bishop of London]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness rightly said, Florence Nightingale not only cared for the sick and wounded but was a statistician, thus providing the foundation of our infection control today. Does the Minister agree that the best tribute to Florence Nightingale is to ensure that nurses today have enough time and resources to continue their own professional development, which contributes not just to the National Health Service but to the health and economic status of this country?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I completely agree with the right reverend Prelate: we want more nurses and we want to encourage nurses to join the profession and, importantly, to stay in it. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has recently launched his long-term plan, which addresses in part the problem of the lack of nurses.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

My Lords, I would not have wanted to give way to any Bishop other than the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London, who has extensive experience of her own in this very field. We have noted the body of people who will be organising the celebration—quite properly—and we look forward to those celebrations, but they have insisted that if we are to honour nursing properly, we should be looking forward rather than back. Some 40,000 health service nursing vacancies need to be filled. Might something as simple as reinstating bursaries for nurses become government policy? Others have thought about it; I am sure that the Minister will want to say something positive about it, too.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Of course, that is not directly relevant to the DCMS, but I am aware that it is an issue. That is why the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, who was previously Secretary of State at the DCMS, established a DHSC-led nurse supply board to drive progress with health bodies on a range of measures, including a national recruitment campaign, action to encourage nurses who have left the NHS to return to practice, and a programme to encourage nurse retention and to look at situations where suitable nurses might be turned away by disproportionate language controls. We are addressing the issue. The one thing on which I think we all agree is the tremendous benefit that the nursing profession brings to us and countries abroad.

Electronic Communications and Wireless Telegraphy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Electronic Communications and Wireless Telegraphy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, digital infrastructure is central to the future of the UK economy. People now rely on being connected through calls and online services more than ever, whether at home or on the move, while communications networks underpin critical areas of the economy. This dependence will only grow with the deployment of new technologies such as 5G and full fibre, which will support innovative new services across manufacturing, logistics, agriculture and healthcare.

The current regulatory framework has created the right conditions for the improvement of connectivity in the UK. It has brought about regulatory certainty and long-term stability for the sector, creating a balance between robust competition, protection for consumers and innovation. However, that framework derives from an EU regulatory framework consisting principally of a number of directives which have been implemented in domestic law.

The UK’s withdrawal from the EU gives rise to deficiencies in that legislation if we leave the EU without an agreement in place. These regulations address those deficiencies and so provide clarity and certainty for communications providers and for the regulator, Ofcom. That is why this statutory instrument is before the Committee today.

I should make it clear at the outset that this SI is concerned with the core of the regulatory framework, in particular the Communications Act 2003. Other matters of relevance to the sector, such as legislation on cross-border data flows, mobile roaming and spectrum decisions, are addressed by separate instruments.

It is also important to observe that the EU framework has already been implemented in domestic law. We are not concerned here with incorporating swathes of EU legislation into UK law, but with making corrections to ensure that the law continues to function appropriately. Furthermore, the scale of those corrections is limited. While the EU framework aims to establish a harmonised telecoms market, that market is policed by national regulatory authorities in each member state, with the European Commission having only a supervisory role.

This SI is intended to ensure that Ofcom can continue to carry out its existing functions effectively. It does not transfer a plethora of new functions to Ofcom or the Secretary of State.

The Government published a technical notice on 13 September 2018 which set out that,

“irrespective of the outcome of the negotiations between the UK and the EU, we do not expect there to be significant impacts on how businesses operate under the telecoms regulatory framework and how consumers of telecoms services are protected”.

This SI is an important part of ensuring that continuity and certainty.

The domestic telecoms framework establishes key regulatory principles such as: the promotion of competition between operators; the protection of consumers of telecoms services; the efficient use of radio spectrum, and the independence of the regulator and its functions. As I have said, these rules derive from a set of EU directives and regulations which have already been implemented in UK law, predominantly in the Communications Act 2003 and in the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006.

I have said that this instrument makes mainly minor and technical amendments to ensure the continuation of the regulatory framework. An example of such an amendment is the removal of a duty on Ofcom to ensure that its activities contribute to the development of the European internal market, set out in the Communications Act 2003.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, if the Minister will forgive me—

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

May I continue, if the noble Lord does not mind? My speech is a tightly woven whole, and it might answer some of the questions he is coming to. Later, I will of course answer as many questions as I can.

I will concentrate in the remainder of this speech on those corrections which I expect to be of the most interest to noble Lords. I turn first to the existing requirements on Ofcom to notify, consult or provide information to the European Commission and to other EU bodies.

Ofcom is required to consult with the Commission, the Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications—BEREC—and the national regulatory authorities of other member states before imposing certain types of regulatory measures. In the case of certain proposed remedies, if the Commission expresses reservations, there is a “standstill” period during which Ofcom must co-operate with the Commission and BEREC. In certain other cases, the Commission can veto the proposed measures.

The Commission’s role is to ensure compliance with the EU regulatory framework and a harmonisation of the approach taken by EU regulators, in order to develop the single market. After EU exit, a power for the Commission and BEREC to scrutinise Ofcom’s decisions in this way will no longer be appropriate, and so this instrument removes these requirements.

Ofcom will continue to need to comply with procedural statutory requirements, including consultation, before it takes regulatory decisions. Once taken, those decisions remain subject to the same scrutiny as today—in particular, the right for affected parties to appeal to the Competition Appeal Tribunal.

EU law also requires Ofcom to provide information to EU bodies. Again, the information requested by EU bodies is generally provided to enable the European Commission to monitor compliance with the European framework or to ensure the harmonisation of measures across the EU. This will not be required when the UK is no longer part of the EU. However, sharing information with the Commission, EU bodies or other regulators in the EU may remain beneficial to the UK after exit—it can help foster co-operation on regulatory matters. That is why this instrument makes amendments which clarify that Ofcom may notify or share information where it considers it appropriate—for example, regarding network security breaches.

Other amendments have been made to ensure the retention of protections for consumers and to enable the regulatory framework to develop in a way that will bring about consistency for industry. In relation to consumer protection, Ofcom has put in place various rules to protect consumers of telecoms services, some of which implement specific requirements of EU law. This instrument makes provision to ensure that Ofcom is able to maintain consumer protection measures which are currently required under the relevant EU directive.

Turning now to corrections that will bring about consistency for industry, Ofcom has existing powers to regulate communications providers with “significant market power”, or SMP. SMP regulation is based on competition law principles, as set out in EU competition law, and enables Ofcom to impose regulatory remedies on providers with SMP to address competition issues in a particular market. This instrument amends the Communications Act 2003 to ensure that, after exit, references to dominance in a market are to be construed consistently with the concept of market dominance in the Competition Act 1998 rather than EU competition law.

This approach ensures that there is a single concept of market dominance across UK competition law post exit. It ensures consistency with the amendments to the Competition Act 1998 which this House approved on 4 December. In other respects, Ofcom’s powers to identify dominant players in the market and to make remedies will remain the same as pre-exit.

Telecoms legislation also includes certain directly applicable EU regulations, which require correction. This instrument revokes the regulations that provide for financial assistance from the EU’s Connecting Europe Facility to support telecoms, including funding to install wi-fi equipment in public spaces. This recognises that this legislation concerns EU funding mechanisms that cannot be retained simply by converting them into domestic law.

In the event of a no-deal exit, UK organisations will no longer be eligible for such funding. However, even if the EU stops making payments to UK organisations delivering CEF-funded projects after exit, the government guarantee will support UK organisations to meet their obligations—including continued project delivery—until completion. The HMG guarantee will also cover successful applications submitted to the EU before exit day but where the award was made after exit.

This instrument also makes corrections to the eCall legislation so that it continues to operate effectively after exit. eCall is an initiative established by the European Commission as part of the intelligent transport system project. It enables a mobile transmission to be sent to emergency services by a vehicle when it is involved in an accident. The eCall legislation refers in parts to technical standards. This instrument confers a legislative power on the Secretary of State to make provision to replace the standards listed. This will enable the standards to be updated, should this be necessary, to ensure continued public safety and effective operation of the eCall technology.

Finally, this statutory instrument revokes the 2009 EU regulation establishing BEREC, the body of national regulators from EU member states. Ofcom is currently a member. The main purpose of BEREC is to ensure the consistent implementation of the EU regulatory framework. BEREC’s membership is therefore limited to the regulators of EU member states. Ofcom will not be a member after exit, but as the UK will no longer be part of the EU regulatory framework, this will not have significant effects on regulation in the UK.

However, the Government and Ofcom agree that it may well be beneficial to have a continued exchange of regulatory best practice with other regulators and an exchange of information about telecoms matters more generally. The new BEREC regulation provides that BEREC participation should be open to third countries where appropriate agreements are in place. Ofcom intends to seek observer status after the UK has exited the EU, in the way that other regulators of states in the European Economic Area and EU candidate countries currently participate.

We are committed to ensuring that the regulation of telecoms markets continues to function appropriately after exit, providing regulatory certainty and the right conditions for continued investment and development. I commend these regulations to the House.

[Lord Adonis]

Before the Minister sits down, he said that he would come to my points later but he did not—although I accept that his speech was carefully woven and made a coherent case for the regulations. However, for the purposes of the Grand Committee, by far the most important issues in the Explanatory Memorandum are raised in paragraphs 10.2 and 10.3. These show that there were quite significant differences between the Government and some consultees on the shaping of the regulations and, in particular, whether there should be continuing obligations for consultation and reference in respect of decisions made by Ofcom as regulator, replicating the current powers and role of the European Commission. These look to be significant issues and the Minister did not mention them at all in his remarks. It seems to me to be important for the Grand Committee to understand what the consultation was, why the Government decided not to go with the view that there should be a regime that replicates that of the European Commission and why the Minister believes that we should go with the Government’s view rather than that of the consultees, who, I should say, are not named in paragraphs 10.2 and 10.3 so it is very hard for us to know who they are. Is this a matter on which we should seek further information and debate before we agree this regulation?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am very happy to answer that; it is a reasonable question. The Government undertook extensive consultation with the telecoms industry, the regulator and other interested groups such as consumer associations. I shall start with the telecoms industry and come to why we should accept what was said.

The Broadband Stakeholder Group assisted us in organising our consultation, which has continued from summer 2017 until now, so it was over a long period, and it counts all the major providers of telecoms and broadband services in its membership: Arqiva, BT, Cisco, CityFibre, EE, Ericsson, Gigaclear, Openreach, Sky, TalkTalk, 3, Virgin Media, Vodafone and Wireless Infrastructure Group, and also from the sector were included Tech UK, INCA, which is the body representing UK alternative smaller telecoms infrastructure providers, consultancies, law firms, the BBC, Avanti, a satellite company, and the Federation of Communication Services. They were all consulted, and, as the noble Lord said, the main area of interest concerned EU consultation. This was discussed from summer 2017 until October 2018.

The main difference is that the function of EU supervision is really to promote the harmonisation of the EU single market. Obviously, that is not appropriate if indeed we leave the EU. The appeals process to the decision that Ofcom will make continues, so the appeals tribunal will still exist and operate in exactly the same way, and so will the administrative court, which enables the telecoms industry to go to judicial review.

In fact, the European Commission has never once vetoed an Ofcom decision, so we do not think it is of huge significance but, as I said, the main reason for not replicating that is that it affects European harmonisation rather than the national regulatory system.

[Lord Adonis]

I am very grateful to the Minister, but will he confirm that many members of the stakeholder group disagreed with the line that the Government are taking, which is not to have a continued consultation role with the European Commission? That is an important issue which is not properly brought out in these papers. The reason they did, which I take to be implicit in paragraph 10.2, is that they do not think that Ofcom should have unfettered power to act without consulting appropriate parallel competition regulatory authorities. Specifically mentioned in paragraph 10.2 is the Competition and Markets Authority, but I take it that the European Commission is seen to be a parallel body from that point of view. Will he expand further?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Yes, the body they would appeal to is part of the Competition and Markets Authority; it obviously has a completely different dynamic to the European Commission, which is there to harmonise the single market. It is true that they expressed those views, and it is probably fair to say that the sector would like as many avenues for appeal as possible—it is regarded as a reasonably litigious sector—but it was felt that because that was for harmonisation, it was not appropriate.

I can say that the industry, including that part of the stakeholder group referred to, is keen that the SI should be taken forward, because it wants clarity and a consistent regulatory framework. To that extent, it is happening.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

The Question is—

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

It might be helpful if I put the initial Question, which is that the Grand Committee do consider the draft Electronic Communications and Wireless Telegraphy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, I am informed that I can publish them.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, following that interesting exchange, I pick up where the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, began, by pointing to what he described as the Minster’s “carefully woven” speech. I confess that I do not quite agree with that definition, as the speech appeared to be a cut-and-paste version of the speech that was given by the Minister in the other place, Margot James, on 7 January. Having gone through that speech, I noticed that odd words were missed out in the noble Lord’s version. In the other place, the Minister thought that there may well be a case for Ofcom remaining involved in BEREC—the word “well” was missing in the noble Lord’s version.

More important, we should recognise that over the last 30 years the industry that we are dealing with, including within it the telecoms industry, has developed from a monopoly situation to a highly competitive market, with annual revenues now in excess of £40 billion. It therefore forms an important part of our economy. Because of the way in which the industry is intrinsically linked to the European Union, there is no doubt in my mind that Brexit will have a significant impact on it, not least because a number of UK providers operate in other member states but have headquarters in the UK. I also believe that Brexit will have a significant impact on the regulatory regime under which those providers operate.

The Minister said, as indeed did Margot James in the other place, that the draft regulations will provide “clarity and certainty” both for the operators and for the regulator. I am somewhat inclined to disagree with that view. Indeed, the technical notice to which the Minister referred, which was issued way back on 13 September last year, explained that, irrespective of the outcome of the negotiations between the UK and the EU, the regulations would not have a significant impact on how businesses operate under the telecoms regulatory framework or on how consumers of telecoms services are protected within the UK. That claim is highly questionable.

Before I turn to those impacts, I want to seek clarification on consultation, the issue that has occupied a few minutes between the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the Minister. In the other place, the Minister for Digital and the Creative Industries, Margot James, said:

“All the changes that the draft regulations will make have been considered on a case-by-case basis and discussed with the regulator and stakeholders where possible”.—[Official Report, Commons, First Delegated Legislation Committee, 7/1/19; cols. 3-4.]


One has to assume that she believes that, as the noble Lord said only a few minutes ago, extensive consultation has taken place. The noble Lord told us about consultation with the Broadband Stakeholder Group and listed its membership. Interestingly, he did not mention the other part of the equation, which relates to the telecoms industry. There is a major body—the UK Competitive Telecommunications Association, or UKCTA—which represents very many of the key stakeholders in that field: Virgin Media, Vodafone, AT&T, the Post Office, Sky, TalkTalk; I could go on. If extensive consultation has taken place, one would assume that that key body, UKCTA, has been involved in the discussions. Yet I have received a note from UKCTA—I would be grateful if the Minister could explain whether this is correct—which says:

“UKCTA has not had any advance notice of, or discussions about, the SI despite regular meetings with DCMS, the most recent being on Monday 14th January”.


Can the Minister explain whether what I am told is incorrect, and if it is correct, can he explain why, despite the Government having claimed that there has been extensive consultation, this important body in the industry and the sector has not been consulted? On the impacts of these draft regulations, which the Government say they do not expect to be significantly—

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[Lord Adonis]

Does the Minister want to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, before I and my noble friend speak?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Is that acceptable to you? He has asked so much.

[Lord Adonis]

Provided it is clear that we can speak after the Minister.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not think that I can stop the noble Lord speaking whenever he wants.

[Lord Adonis]

I am delighted to hear it.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord asked a lot of questions. Underlying it all is the fact that this SI is there in the event of no deal. Of course, it is not surprising that references to and some of the effects of being in the EU are going to change. The essential point of the SI is that telecoms regulation is performed by national regulatory authorities with EU supervision. The issue is whether the supervision element is significant. The whole point of the SI is to make the regulatory system the same after we leave. The noble Lord made a lot of mileage out of whether we would remain a member of BEREC—

[Lord Foster of Bath]

The issue is not about the regulatory regime staying the same but about who is regulating the regulator. I hope that the Minister will come on to that.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Yes, absolutely. I will come on to that because nobody regulates the regulator today.

The noble Lord asked me to go beyond no deal to what happens to our membership of BEREC if we have a negotiated deal with an implementation period. During that period, the UK will no longer be a member state of the EU but, as is set out in the terms of the withdrawal agreement, common rules will remain in place. That is why we expect Ofcom to continue to participate in BEREC in line with the terms of the agreement, in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Foster, mentioned.

I point out to noble Lords that there is every reason to suppose that the EU would want that, because Ofcom is one of the leading telecoms regulators in Europe—if not the leading one. The interchange between Ofcom and other European regulators has been extremely beneficial, not only for them but for this country. There is every reason to think that they would wish to continue that—

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I am sorry. The noble Lord is entitled to assert whatever he likes, but I specifically read out a section from the withdrawal agreement, which says, and I repeat, that the UK has no right to participate in decision-making or governance in any EU body of any type and no right to attend meetings. I have given the two caveats: the first relates to any discussion that,

“concerns individual acts addressed to the UK”,

or persons residing or established in the UK; and the second is that the presence of the United Kingdom is,

“necessary and in the interests of the Union”.

It is all very well for the Minister to say that he hopes that it will be perfectly all right and that the EU will have us for other things, but a specific clause in the withdrawal agreement says the opposite.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I was going to read out that exact clause to make my point. If it is,

“in the interests of the Union”,

or where the discussion concerns acts addressed to the UK and its citizens, it provides that the UK will continue to participate in EU agencies and bodies. I think that those two things apply and, as I was saying, the reason why I think that is the mutual benefit Ofcom has. It is a world-leading, well-respected regulator. However, I accept that it does not have the right to do these things. That is not surprising, because we are leaving the EU. Why should it have the right? I think that we have come to stalemate on that point.

The noble Lord mentioned the fact that BEREC rules have changed and that it is not just a question of having been invited to be an observer. He is absolutely right: either there has to be an agreement with the EU as part of a future economic partnership or a bilateral agreement can facilitate it. Under that facility, which the EU has deliberately put in the new BEREC regulations, Ofcom can—under a bilateral agreement—be a member of the board of regulators, the working groups and the management board.

I will move on to data adequacy later. The important issue that both noble Lords mentioned is, crudely put, whether the regulator will still be regulated. The European Commission does not regulate Ofcom. It has a supervisory power, which is principally designed to ensure the consistency of regulatory practices across the EU, in order to contribute to the development of the single market. It is quite understandable that the EU should want to harmonise national regulators to facilitate the single market. Of course, if we leave the EU, that will no longer apply. The role of the European Commission in telecoms regulation is unique and should not be compared to EU scrutiny powers over other UK economic regulators. There is sufficient accountability in the domestic system, because Ofcom decisions can be challenged in the courts—of course, the primary area in which they are challenged is in the statutory appeal before the Competition Appeal Tribunal.

In fact, the withdrawal Act is not a vehicle for policy changes, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, will remind us. We think that, under the terms of the Act, recreating a domestic equivalent for the oversight of Ofcom’s decisions will be considered going beyond what is appropriate to correct the deficiency.

[Lord Adonis]

I am grateful to the Minister, but does he not accept that this could be argued both ways? It is clear from reading the materials available to me that one could say that replicating the status quo means having some consultation and appeal role for a competition body above Ofcom, which is the role currently played by the European Commission, or one could take the Government’s view that there should not be such a role. It appears to me that the reason why this has happened is twofold: first, because the whole government mindset is to have as little Europe as possible—as a matter of prejudice the Government do not want any continued consultation role for the European Commission, even if that might be in the best interests of Ofcom and the robustness of our regime, given how intertwined our companies and industries are—and, secondly, because Ofcom would obviously prefer not to have any oversight. Any regulator in Ofcom’s position would much rather not have somebody else marking its homework. It appears that the Government have been unduly swayed by Ofcom in drawing up these regulations, particularly in the light of the observations from the noble Lord, Lord Foster, that key industry groups have not even been consulted.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not think that you can argue it both ways. Of course we will not be involved in the EU supervision, given that the whole point of the supervision is to affect the European single market, of which we will not be a part. To set up a completely new supervisory authority, with a completely different function from what it had before, would, I think, be beyond the powers of the withdrawal Act—it will obviously be different if we are not talking about EU supervision to maintain regulatory harmony.

I come to both noble Lords’ points about the consultation, because I do not believe that they are true. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, made a reference to the UKCTA—its members, by the way, are also members of the BSG—and read out the names of a number of companies that are part of the group which facilitated the round tables. There may be a disagreement with us, as my information is that it was asked to at least one of the round tables. It has met DCMS and has had the opportunity to raise concerns about the SI—as he said, it met DCMS only very recently—and of course our technical notice explains some of the problems and issues about telecoms regulation when we leave the EU, so it is not as though it did not mention it. Therefore, some of that body’s members have sat round the table with DCMS; they have been asked. There is no requirement to send the draft SI to industry, but it had every opportunity to contact DCMS and every opportunity to raise it at the meetings that the noble Lord referred to. We have ongoing and good relations with all parts of the sector, so there is absolutely no reason why, if there is a problem, it could not be raised with DCMS. I do not accept that in this case the consultation has been insufficient. We have had regular and continued consultation with the industry, not only with the telecoms sector but also with consumers and Ofcom itself.

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I do not think that it is necessary to pursue this; I am merely making a simple request. Given that this body says that it has not been consulted—I entirely accept the Minister’s point that the draft regulations have been published and so it could have read them and perhaps could have come forward and said, “Can we discuss this?”—can the Minister just give the Grand Committee an assurance that it will now be invited to come and have a discussion about its concerns on these draft regulations? Then we can move on.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It is of course a bit late to consult it on the regulations, but we will definitely do so in future. I will try to find out where we have a disagreement on fact—whether it was able to be consulted—and will let the noble Lord know about that. I appreciate his allowing me to move on.

There is an important issue about data adequacy, which the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, mentioned. He asked whether it would happen in the next eight weeks. Of course, what he does not realise is that it cannot happen in the next eight weeks, because you cannot have data adequacy until you are a third country. You will never get data adequacy until exit day; when that will be is another matter. Data adequacy is an important issue. We have said that there will be no restriction on personal data flowing from the UK to the EU; the issue is entirely about personal data flowing from the EU to the UK. What are we doing about it? We have spent a lot of time talking to member states, explaining our mutual interest in having data adequacy. We should not forget that we start from the exact same position, because we have implemented the GDPR. We are therefore in a good position.

The EU has indicated—it has not said it formally—that it will be ready to discuss data adequacy as soon as exit day comes. We are ready to do that, but in the meantime there is a possibility that there will be a gap between when we leave the EU and whenever we get data adequacy. To cope with that gap there are mitigations and ways round it—standard contractual conditions for contracts, for example. We are ramping up the speed of publication and are making industry aware of this. There will be a significant amount of progress on that over the next few weeks. It is always frustrating when you spend time talking to trade bodies—we are talking to about 50 companies a week at the moment, and we will double that—and, despite all that work, people still say that they were not aware of it. We saw that with the GDPR. However, we have a publicity campaign; work is going on to try to make people aware and, for example, to encourage them visit the ICO website, which gives examples of ways to mitigate in case of a gap.

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[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, the Minister has done a conscientious job of explaining the regulations and dealing with the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Foster. However, I did not greatly care for the intervention at the beginning by the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, which sought to prevent me from posing questions to the Minister. I hugely respect the noble Baroness, but it is important to understand what is going on in this Grand Committee. We are making significant changes to the law. It is true that we are doing so in an emergency situation because we have to agree things in the next eight weeks in case the United Kingdom crashes out of the EU without a deal, but we should not minimise the fact that we are making significant changes to the law. Because of the emergency nature of events, we are doing this by means of statutory instruments, but the fact that these are called statutory instruments does not make the changes to the law less substantial.

The changes to the law involved in this one statutory instrument would, in the normal course of events, require primary legislation, with Second Reading, Committee, Report and Third Reading. We would have ample opportunity to engage with the Minister, move amendments and probe issues around consultation and appeal mechanisms and so on, which we have been debating across the Floor. Because of the constraints of the statutory instrument process, all this is being done by means of one statutory instrument, with one debate in Grand Committee and potentially another in the Chamber.

When we went to the Chamber on the venture capital regulations yesterday, I had expected that the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Bates, would present the regulations to the House in the light of the debate that had taken place in Grand Committee and to reply to that debate. I thought that he would do the same on the interchange regulations; the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, who is in her place, had raised a lot of significant policy issues on those regulations. But things did not happen at all as I had expected. What happened was that the noble Lord, Lord Bates—

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord is kind to let me in. I think he is in danger of making a generic speech here. In this SI, we are retaining the status quo in telecoms legislation. We are trying to maintain EU law, which has been implemented in UK law. I accept that there are changes—for example, the European Commission is mentioned in relation to supervision—but obviously those changes will result from our coming out of the EU. I do not accept that, in this case, we are making substantive changes. I suppose that one area that one could argue we are changing is giving the Secretary of State powers to amend regulations so that the eCall system works. That is clearly to everyone’s benefit who drives or travels in a car. That is one area where we are possibly giving the Secretary of State more powers, but I do not accept that there is a whole swathe of legislation that normally would have required to be made through primary legislation.

[Lord Adonis]

I am grateful to the Minister for that intervention, but I note that the issues raised in paragraphs 10.2 and 10.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum indicate that significant players in the industry do not accept the statements that he has just made. They do not accept that this is the best way of transposing the status quo into a new regime following a no-deal Brexit. On the contrary, as I will explain in a moment, they think that the Competition and Markets Authority should have replicated the existing role of the European Commission, but the Government decided not to do that. I accept that the Minister has said what he said in good faith, but what he said is not the view of a large number of players in the sector.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord is surely not suggesting that every time we have a consultation we should agree on everything with every person who is consulted.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, the problem with this situation is that we do not know what happened in the consultation, because nothing has been published. Let me read out what paragraph 10.1 says, so that it goes on the record. Under the heading “Consultation outcome”, it says:

“Informal consultation has been undertaken with Ofcom, whose views have been taken into consideration in development of the instrument”.


In the case of informal consultation, nothing is published. Indeed, I am anxious to read the letter that Ofcom sent to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, because it will be the only thing that has come out in public saying what Ofcom actually thinks. For the process of making the law, the right course to pursue would have been to have had a formal consultation, with Ofcom’s formal view, but the Government did not do that. At the moment, we are legislating in the dark.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Ofcom has been consulted all along. It worked with DCMS in drafting the SI. It is keen to retain its independent status. It will not come out and say, “This is a joint DCMS/Ofcom SI”, but it has been consulted all the way along. It was instrumental in the drafting of the SI.

[Lord Adonis]

I do not for a moment expect that Ofcom should be required to agree. On the contrary, it is the job of the Government and Parliament to decide what the law and the regulations will be. However, it is our responsibility as parliamentarians to be fully informed about what the stakeholders think. Nothing has been published. The consultation with Ofcom has been informal. We have no details of the consultations referred to in paragraph 10.2. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, told us that the UK Competitive Telecommunications Association, which some of us had never heard of before, was not consulted. The Minister says that it was consulted. This issue of what in fact happened is still not resolved across the Grand Committee. The whole situation is unsatisfactory.

To complete the broader point that I was making in respect of the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, I do not think it reasonable to curb the rights of noble Lords to question Ministers on fundamental changes to the law of the kind that are being proposed simply because it is inconvenient to the Government, but that is what the noble Baroness and other Ministers have sought to do.

[Lord Adonis]

I am very grateful for the noble Baroness’s explanation but I do not believe that I was in any way infringing the courtesies of the House in seeking to question the Minister. The job of a Grand Committee is to elicit from Ministers information which is relevant to our consideration of these matters. However, we do not have the equivalent of a Committee stage in which we can propose amendments and hear explanations from the Government, which can then be questioned, so the only mechanism that we have in Grand Committee is to ask direct questions before the Minister sits down. Therefore, I do not accept for a moment that I was infringing the courtesies, the Standing Orders or the reasonable procedures of the House.

Unfortunately, it has become a pattern in Grand Committee for Whips to seek to curb proper debate and discussion. They are trying to railroad through these significant changes to the law with the minimum debate and the minimum questioning possible. I absolve the Minister from any intent to refrain from giving information, because he has been very forthcoming.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Perhaps I may help. There is another way in which the noble Lord could find out the information that he requires. He knows well in advance that these SIs are coming up, so he could always write to me and ask.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, I would be delighted to write to the noble Lord when his next lot of SIs are due to come before the Grand Committee and ask him for more information, but until I have heard the explanation and his account, it is often difficult to know what questions one wants to ask. I should observe that at the moment we are having these statutory instruments at the rate of about 20 to 30 a week, so, although I take my duties as a Member of the House very seriously, it would not be possible for me to correspond with Ministers in advance of each of them in a way that would be productive, given that we are going to debate them in any event.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord would be able to spend less time in Grand Committee, so he would have some more spare time.

[Lord Adonis]

I am not sure whether the noble Lord meant that as a serious contribution to the debate. I cannot think of anything that I would find more felicitous than engaging in correspondence with the Minister, so I would be happy to do that hereafter.

I sense that we will return to the issues raised in paragraphs 10.2 and 10.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum when the regulations go to the Chamber. The Minister has already undertaken to publish the relevant minutes of the Broadband Stakeholder Group and it is important that we have an opportunity to take account of those before these regulations go to the House. If the Minister does not mind my saying so, we will need to have resolved what consultations have taken place with the UK competitor telecoms authority and its members, and having that information before the House would be useful too. That is important to enable the House to make a judgment on the issues raised in paragraphs 10.2 and 10.3. Perhaps I may read to the Grand Committee what is said there:

“Some stakeholders expressed concerns that removal of the requirement for EU consultation on certain Ofcom proposed regulatory measures (and in particular the Commission’s ability to require Ofcom to withdraw its proposed measure in some circumstances) … amounted to loss of a valuable check on Ofcom’s decision-making. Those stakeholders proposed that an equivalent function be recreated domestically (for example, requiring the Competition and Markets Authority to approve certain of Ofcom’s proposed measures”.


The Minister has just said that doing that would involve a change in the status quo. However, the contention of stakeholders in the sector is that, far from constituting a change in the status quo, it would transpose an equivalent function to the one currently performed by the European Commission once we leave the European Union. To me, the issue set out in paragraph 10.2 is significant, and the noble Lord, Lord Foster, who is much more knowledgeable about the sector than I am, made the concern of the sector a significant part of his remarks.

I entirely agree with the Minister that the Government should not be expected to give a veto to telecoms companies and other stakeholders which is in any way unreasonable. I accept that; as a former telecoms correspondent for the Financial Times, I am only too aware of the market power of those bodies, and it is important to have strong regulators. I am not saying that those telecoms companies and interest groups are necessarily right—the Government might be right not to give further supervisory powers to the Competition and Markets Authority that would lead to further appeals, litigation and huge expense to the public—but my concern, which goes to the whole procedure of dealing with these no-deal regulations, is that this is an important issue. I think that the Minister would accept that it is a pretty significant issue in terms of the construction of the regulatory regime. This decision has been taken on the basis of no formal consultation, and the views of stakeholders have become apparent to your Lordships only during this debate and were brought up particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Foster.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

That is not right. That is why the Explanatory Memorandum specifically mentioned their views. It is not that the noble Lord has found them at the last minute, because he was citing the very Explanatory Memorandum that told him that there were opposite views, which we disregarded for reasons with which I think he agrees.

[Lord Adonis]

Let me correct myself. The Minister is quite right that the Explanatory Memorandum mentions that at paragraph 10.2. However, all it says is “some stakeholders”, so there is no explanation of who those stakeholders were. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, brought out who they were and why they hold those views. For our next consideration of this measure, we need to know more about which stakeholders expressed the views in paragraph 10.2 and why they did so, so that we can form a view as to whether the Government’s judgment, which is that there should be no role for the Competition and Markets Authority, is correct or whether the right approach would have been to have given some supervisory role to the CMA, as is envisaged by the stakeholders in paragraph 10.2.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

This may help the noble Lord and cut down on the time. I have been told that we will continue to consult the industry on the scrutiny of Ofcom’s draft regulatory decisions, but we do not believe that this SI is the vehicle for such policy changes—because that is what they are. I committed to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, that I would outline the people whom we had consulted. I take his point about a formal consultation; we decided not to do that, but that is not to say that there has not been extensive consultation, which I have agreed to make clear. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that we will continue to consult on that, but will not do it through this SI.

[Lord Adonis]

I fully accept what the Minister said. He has been very forthcoming in making further information available to noble Lords. It would be very useful to us to have that further information before these regulations go to the House. We need that further information so that we can form a judgment on whether the Government’s decision as to how they will frame the regulatory regime after 29 March, if we crash out of the EU, is correct or whether it would have been appropriate to have in domestic arrangements some function equivalent to that performed by the European Commission; for example, by requiring the CMA to approve certain of Ofcom’s proposed regulatory measures. I hope that the Minister will be able to make that information available to the House so that we can form a judgment when this regulation comes to the House.

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[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

We will have to have a consultation about that in order to find out who forms which view about Dante’s Inferno.

There are two focal points to my remarks. I wanted to ask about the data adequacy agreement but the Minister has answered that. I also wanted to ask: who regulates the regulator? I was very interested indeed to read about Ofcom. While I in no way have the level of expertise of other noble Lords who have spoken, just reading the text—I know how to do that—what hit me between the eyes begged questions: is this regulation or supervision? Are we talking about harmonisation? I have sat in on several debates to try to gauge what is happening in consideration of these statutory instruments and I am beginning to form the view that between where we are now and where we expect to be if all goes according to plan, in several instances there will be a lessening of the oversight and direction that we have currently through our membership of the European Union.

For example, I listened to the debate on nuclear safeguarding yesterday. I was not convinced by either the debate or the material I read that the concerns being expressed would be adequately met. It was a similar case as regards non-native invasive species. Again, I was left with questions which may be answerable: I am not an expert in these fields. However, simply because we are under pressure to agree to these statutory instruments, we must not go on driving them through in such a way that in the end the accumulation of feeling about what we are achieving is that we are making too much haste and should have a bit less speed. I know that there are just 70-something days and the pressures that we are under, but in the end we will have to live with what we decide now.

All of those Acts of Parliament were carefully gone through. I have just one brief observation to make about Ofcom because the others have been made. Most of my consideration was on paragraph 10, but I will not cover that at all. However, in paragraph 7, I find that again and again what Ofcom is required to do while we are a member of the European Union “may” turn into something later. The indicative mood turns into—what? Is it the optative or is it the subjunctive? The word “may” allows itself to be interpreted either way. The optative reflects the mood of wishful thinking while the subjunctive reflects the mood of doubtful assertion. I am truly interested in knowing whether Ofcom’s different field of endeavour and focal points amount to it having the same quality and weight of oversight that it currently enjoys and whether the subjective element which is being introduced by the verbs I have described allow for a different way for it to operate or a different mood to be generated. I do not know, because the words do not allow me to make a deduction and I have certainly not heard this mentioned or dealt with in our discussion thus far.

I said that I would not detain noble Lords for long and I shall not. I am normally an optimistic person and I end my short interventions by saying that I look forward to the next one. However, I sit down on this occasion in a more desultory manner, not sure that I do.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am sorry that the noble Lord is not looking forward to my reply—he would not be the only one. Let me answer some of his points.

He asked how many hours have been put into the production of the SI. I cannot tell him exactly, but we have been working on it for about 18 months to allow for the engagement of stakeholders and other government departments and the appropriate legal checks. The consultation might not be to everyone’s liking in the sense that it was not formal, but it was real and I shall share some more information with the Committee about who turned up. It was real and, for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, gave, we may be vindicated in our decision not to include another regulator on top of Ofcom. I think I have covered that.

When the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, talks about whether it is regulation or supervision and a lessening in oversight, the point to bear in mind is that telecoms have always been regulated by national regulators. The EU Commission has a very particular role in this connected with EU matters—namely, the single market. It is obvious that if we are no longer in the EU and the single market, not only will that supervisory function not be performed by the EU because we will not be in it but there will not be a harmonisation problem.

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I said that I would not intervene but I am intervening. The Minister is well aware that the financial consequences of telecoms companies, for example, in the UK, which do not abide by regulations imposed by the European Union will be significant. Even following Brexit, there will be huge impacts, one upon another. Therefore, to suggest that Ofcom does not have to have regard to that is just wrong.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I may have missed the noble Lord’s point. The regulatory framework set up through EU directives and regulations has been implemented in UK law and is administered and regulated by the UK. It will change, so in certain cases we have provided that Ofcom, the regulator, will bear in mind the current status of EU directives but in future will have the liberty to move away from them, which is only to be expected because we will not be in the EU. Therefore, we have taken account of EU law as we are trying to maintain the existing regulatory framework, although I accept that in future we might move away from it. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, says that it is changing. It is, and the basis of this SI is that we are leaving the EU, so there is change.

The noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, asked about paragraph 7 of the Explanatory Memorandum: why Ofcom may exchange information with the EU Commission or BEREC. The reason is that it will be given the option to do so if it is in the best interests of this country. It would be perverse to deny it the option to do that, so we are giving it that power. Both noble Lords rightly made the point that it will not, ex officio, be a member of BEREC. We expect it to be either an observer or a member of the various groups that I mentioned, and we hope that it will be. Whether it is or is not, we think it would often be in the regulatory interests of this country to exchange information. I think it is extremely likely that it would do so and I am sure that regulatory information will flow the other way. It is the subjunctive, I feel, in answer to the noble Lord’s question.

I am grateful for the consideration of the instrument and expect a very brief further discussion—consultation, possibly—later; I have made commitments on that. We think that the amendments contained in the SI are essential to ensure legal clarity, to reduce litigation risk and to protect consumers. Beyond that, we have agreed on the necessity for the regime to exist to correct deficiencies in retained EU law. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will be able to approve the consideration of the regulation.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

The Question is that the Motion be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say “Content”; to the contrary “Not-content”.

Television Licences: Over 75s

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare that I am over 75.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government meet the BBC regularly to discuss a range of issues, including the over-75s concession. We know that people across the country value television as a way to stay connected with the world, and that is why the Government have guaranteed the concession until 2020. We have agreed with the BBC that responsibility for the concession will transfer to the BBC in 2020, and we have been clear that we want the concession to continue.

[Lord Naseby]

Is my noble friend aware that that is an encouraging Answer? Nevertheless, is it not time that the BBC faced up to the fact that it is a public service broadcaster, with a social responsibility to its listeners? Is it not a little surprising to have a consultation document of 50 pages-plus on the subject which seems to give the message that it is trying to wriggle out of that social responsibility? When it faced a not dissimilar problem for BBC overseas, when the Foreign Office removed the grant, the BBC took the decision to take advertising. We now have a situation where every hour of BBC broadcasting has three minutes of promos. Would that gap not be better used by taking advertising?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My noble friend is completely right that the BBC should pay attention to its social responsibilities, and it does. However, in the consultation surrounding the renewal of the royal charter, only 1.5% of people said that the BBC should have advertising. One of the reasons why allowing it would not be an easy solution is that all the other public service broadcasters, which do not start the year with £3.8 billion in subsidy, would find it even more difficult to do their excellent job.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, going back to the main point, this is a completely classic cock-up by the Conservative Party. It promised, in its manifesto, that this issue would continue until the end of the next Parliament—which I still think is 2022—but the new arrangements are supposed to take place from 2020. To compound the issue, the money runs out in 2020. If, as the Minister wishes, the BBC does continue to offer this arrangement, who is going to pay for it?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

When the funding settlement was put down in 2015, the BBC agreed to pay for it in 2020, in return for a five-year, index-linked settlement—the first time that had ever happened. The BBC has had four years to prepare for this; it knew it was coming. That is why we expect it to live up to what was agreed.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)]

If the Government persist in requiring the BBC, and hence the licence fee payer, to pay for the over-75s—a welfare benefit introduced by Gordon Brown and paid for by the Government—there will either have to be yet more cuts to its budget, and consequently to UK content at a time when PSBs are really under the cosh, or a rise in the licence fee which will have particular implications for lower-income households. Does the Minister agree?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The BBC is consulting on a number of options, it has made those known and the consultation finishes next month—I am sure that noble Lords will want to contribute to it. The fact is that the BBC agreed a deal in 2015. We are not asking anything sudden; it has had four years to prepare for this and that is what they agreed to do. So I do not see why it is extraordinary to expect the BBC, a £5 billion corporation, to live up to the agreement it made in 2015.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that the BBC would have plenty of scope to meet this cost if it slashed the exorbitant salaries paid to some performers and producers, not to mention their bonuses?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Would that that were so. I agree with the thrust of the noble Baroness’s question—the BBC has a duty to take seriously how much it pays senior managers and stars—but the cost of the over-75s’ concession is about £750 million, and I am afraid that even reducing all salaries to zero would not achieve that.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not true that the BBC was pretty well bounced into this? It was a decision made by the Treasury and not even DCMS knew about it until the BBC was forced to comply.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

If that was the case, why did the director-general say:

“The government’s decision here to put the cost of the over-75s on us has been more than matched by the deal coming back for the BBC”?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, following the principle of the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, that public service functions could be subsidised by advertising, are there thoughts within the Conservative Government that this principle could be extended further? Our police service has been quite sharply cut in recent years, for example. Does the Minister think that police cars could be encouraged to take advertising as well?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not know whether the noble Lord was listening to the Answer I gave to my noble friend. I said that the BBC should not take advertising.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from the question asked by my noble friend Lord Dubs, does the Minister agree, on reflection, that the way the agreement—which we all have to concede was an agreement—was arrived at was, to say the least, not very transparent and did not take very long to be sorted out? It appeared to come upon everybody very suddenly and without much discussion, which suggests a bit of a shotgun arrangement.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The BBC is not a small organisation; it is a very sophisticated organisation. Up until the 2015 settlement, there was an almost permanent state of crisis because the licence fee was funded on an annual basis, so as soon as it was agreed one year, negotiations started for the next year. Partly for the benefit of transparency, the Government agreed a five-year index-linked deal to give the BBC time to organise itself so that it knew what was coming and was able to deal with the concession that it knew would come in in 2020. As a result, the Government agreed to phase in the support from DWP, which comes to an end in 2020. I think it was a reasonable deal that was agreed by both sides.

Children and Young People: Digital Technology

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Thursday 17th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for curtailing his remarks—I sometimes feel that he could go on for a lot longer. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for convening a debate on this important subject and for discussing it with me beforehand. Finally, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I will race through my response because I want to leave a minute or two for the noble Baroness to respond.

We all agree that the internet offers a huge range of opportunities and benefits. However, as we heard today, there are legitimate concerns about the relationship that young people have with digital technology and the impact it can have on their health and well-being. A great deal of work is taking place across government, and I will come to some of the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, on that. Work is also ongoing in the tech sector, health services and the education sector to ensure that young people can access the benefits of the internet safely. However, we recognise that more research is required to better understand the impact that the digital world can have on health and well-being. This is new technology, changing before our eyes, so it is not surprising that we are experiencing unintended consequences, nor that the evidence is incomplete and sometimes contradictory, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, mentioned in his excellent speech.

The noble Lord, Lord Storey, was a bit dismissive of the digital charter. However, through the charter we have already seen age verification, age-appropriate design, data ethics and innovation bodies set up, the Green Paper and hours of interaction within the sector. There is of course more to do, and I will come to that in a minute, but we have not been doing nothing in the meantime. The principle is ambitious—to make the UK the safest place in the world to be online—and we want to achieve it. That will include taking specific steps to support children and young people.

The forthcoming joint DCMS and Home Office online harms White Paper will be published this winter. It will set out a range of non-legislative and—I say this to the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin—legislative measures detailing how we will tackle online harms. It will set clear responsibilities for technology companies to keep all UK citizens safe, particularly children and other vulnerable users. There are, however, difficult lines to be drawn between liberties, freedom of speech, the freedom of the internet and protecting the public. We will therefore continue to encourage participation as we further develop our proposals. As has been mentioned, the Secretary of State had a useful first meeting open to all Peers on Tuesday this week, and we will encourage further discussion with Peers as the process goes on. I will say more about the White Paper in a minute.

We spend a lot of time in this House and at the DCMS talking about harms, especially to children, but it is important that we acknowledge the benefits of digital technology and social media. As my noble friend Lady Redfern said, it is about balance. The technology enables young people to access educational resources, make social connections, build relationships and demonstrate their creativity. It has impacted every area of our lives: the genie is out of the bottle and we cannot put it back. We therefore need to find solutions.

While we recognise the benefits, we also understand the concerns about the impact that digital technology may have on young people’s physical and mental well-being. The impact may relate to the device itself or to the content being accessed. For example, we know that parents and professionals are concerned that digital technology can lead to a lack of sleep and a lack of exercise, both of which are well documented as playing an important role in maintaining good health and well-being. There are also concerns about the impact of specific online harms which may not be illegal, such as cyberbullying, the encouragement of self-harm and online grooming. More generally, there are concerns about the impact of celebrity culture, disinformation and the pressure to live up to unrealistic portrayals of other people’s lives.

We have seen in recent years that the technology industry can deal with some of those harmful impacts through technical solutions and guidance—for example, filters and new well-being tools—and parents can use apps to set controls to limit their children’s access. Some of the big technology companies have provided resources for teachers and parents, so they are doing something. However, I am not suggesting that this will get them off the hook.

We recognise that companies can do more and, in particular, our internet safety strategy consultation highlighted that users, civil society organisations and professionals working with children felt that platforms needed to do more to manage the content and behaviour on their platforms. In addition, more can be done to make technical tools more effective and guidance more accessible.

The online harms White Paper I have mentioned will concentrate on supporting everyone’s ability to access the benefits of the internet while staying safe. In answer partly to the opening remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, it will consider how we will protect children and vulnerable people in particular, and outline measures targeted at improving children’s safety online specifically.

Although we have had some success working with companies at a voluntary level, legislation is necessary to ensure that progress is extended across a greater range of platforms—we are not talking about only social media—and replicated in countering a wider range of online harms, and to give confidence to the public, which is important, that standards apply to and are enforceable on all platforms.

The White Paper will establish a government-wide approach to online safety, delivering the digital charter’s ambitions of making the UK the safest place in the world to be online, while leading the world in innovation-friendly regulation that supports the growth of the tech sector. It is a complex area and we are taking a thorough and traditional policy approach. We had the publication of the Green Paper, a consultation and the Government’s response, and now the White Paper which will precede legislation.

The noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones, Lord Bichard and Lord Storey, implied that progress was slow. However, this is a complex area so we are taking it at a reasonable measure. We expect and earnestly hope that we will be able to legislate, I have been asked to say “imminently” rather than “shortly”, but I have been around long enough not to get involved in that game. At least I did not say “in due course”. We wish to proceed and get to legislation once the White Paper has been discussed.

We are also engaging with industry, civil society, peers and academia, who sit at the heart of our operation, which we hope will enable us to develop world-leading law that is future-proof. As well as setting out the expectations for the tech industry, it will highlight the role of education and technical solutions in supporting young people online, and will build on the important work which the Department for Education has already taken forward in relation to ensuring that children are taught about online safety in schools.

Let me turn to what we know about these problems. There are, rightly, concerns about the impact of digital technology on young people’s health and well-being. We realise the need to build evidence about specific harms and to ensure that consistent advice is available. As has been mentioned, the Chief Medical Officer, Professor Dame Sally Davies, has commissioned a systematic evidence review of the impact of social media use on children’s and young people’s mental health. This review covers cyberbullying, as referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, and we understand the issues around safeguarding in this respect. It covers online gaming, sleep problems and problematic internet use—also known as internet addiction—where there is a social impact.

I have found the evidence, particularly as described in the media, confusing and sometimes contradictory. The only overwhelming view seems to be that we should not look at a screen before we go to bed—which, incidentally, most people should do earlier for optimal health. We are continuing to work closely with the Department of Health and Social Care, and the Secretary of State there, a former DCMS Secretary of State, knows about the issues concerning digital.

I shall try to deal with a few questions quickly as I have not got much time. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, mentioned education. I reassure them that we think that the arts are very important in that. In fact, quite a lot of work is being done in the Department of Health about arts for health. Although we are behind this and are making the case in government, we hope we have the Department of Health with us on that.

Perhaps I should start on the questions asked by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans about gambling as this is the third day running I have been talking about this. I shall be very brief because I have a lot to get through. In 2017, the Gambling Commission set out its continued commitment to tackle issues arising from a potential convergence between gaming and gambling, and to look at developments such as skins betting and social casino gambling. In September 2018, the Gambling Commission, along with 16 other regulators from Europe and the USA, signed a declaration which outlined common concerns about gaming and gambling. It is also seeking to work with the video games industry to raise awareness of this.

The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, asked about online gaming and addiction. The response to the Internet Safety Strategy outlined how we will work with online platforms and agencies, such as the Video Standards Council Rating Board, trade bodies and others, to continue to improve. He can look at that. I am not going to go through it in detail now.

The right reverend Prelate and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, asked what we are going with regard to loot boxes. The Gambling Commission has strong powers. We are aware of the concerns that entertainment products such as video games could encourage gambling-like behaviour, so we will look at evidence around that very carefully. The Gambling Commission is aware of that.

The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, talked about the importance of communication, and my noble friend Lord Lucas talked about parents. It is important that we do a lot to help parents because they may not have the skills needed to supervise what their children are doing. That was certainly highlighted in the Internet Safety Strategy consultation. We were keen to receive more information on data protection, mental health impacts, et cetera. The new UK Council for Internet Safety will be tasked by the Government to review current online safety materials and to identify any gaps. One problem is that parents frequently express an interest but do not turn up to schools, for example, when these things are discussed, so we will have to be imaginative in looking at how we can help parents. The Chief Medical Officer is going to consider providing advice for parents in spring 2019, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned. Also, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health recently published The Health Impacts of Screen Time: A Guide for Clinicians and Parents, which the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, asked about.

The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, asked whether we were dealing with disinformation in the online harms White Paper or in another way. The UK Government take the issue of online manipulation very seriously, and tackling disinformation is already a key pillar of the digital charter. We will explore how we can use measures in the White Paper to address its harmful impact on society. I can also tell the noble Baroness that, as I mentioned before, we are not confining the online harms White Paper to social media.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford talked about safety by design. That is absolutely critical and we agree with it. We will get updates from tech companies that are developing new products to ensure that internet safety, cybersecurity and data protection are all part of the design process.

I am afraid that I have to stop. I have a lot more to say and will write to noble Lords, but I want to leave a couple of minutes for the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I thank noble Lords for all their questions, and I realise that we have more to do. I finish by saying that we are committed to ensuring that the UK is the safest place to be online and we will work with a wide range of partners, including the tech industry, civil society and online safety experts, to ensure that young people can fully access the benefits that the digital world can bring safely and with confidence that tech companies and platforms will act in a responsible manner.

Gambling: Advertising Ban

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Wednesday 16th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ban gambling advertising, particularly on television, to counter the negative effects on vulnerable and younger people, and others.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, there are strict controls to prevent gambling advertisements targeting children or exploiting vulnerable people. Our review set out measures to strengthen the protections, including tougher guidance and sanctions. We welcome initiatives by the industry and broadcasters, including the ban on advertising during live sport. A major survey of evidence found that advertising’s impact on problem gambling is likely to be rather small. We will look at all new evidence as it emerges.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, when I was the Minister responsible for gambling in this country in the 1990s, after full research and consultation we turned our backs pretty well altogether on the idea of allowing television advertising of gambling. Sadly, in 2005 the Labour Government of that time totally liberalised this and we ended up with a great and continuing problem. We now have a total of £234 million of advertising revenue from gambling on television. While I welcome the Government’s position and the way in which they are taking initiatives, including its whistle-to-whistle voluntary agreement, I am still very concerned that any review has no real timescale. Will my noble friend the Minister therefore give us some indication of whether there will be a timescale to a further review? To use an imperfect analogy to the point made yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, there is currently a viviparous situation which needs to be rectified with a clear timescale in view.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I now understand what the noble Lord meant by that last bit. We take the problem of advertising gambling seriously; that is why we made several changes in the review. There was a multi-million pound responsible gambling advertising campaign. The responsible gambling message now appears throughout all TV advertisements. There are tougher sanctions for breaches of advertising codes and new guidance on protecting vulnerable people. We will consider how those significant changes have bedded in. The Committee of Advertising Practice also published strengthened guidance with significant new provisions, including restricting calls such as “Bet now” during sporting events. As I said yesterday, though, evidence is important when making policy. That is why GambleAware has commissioned substantial research on the impact of marketing advertising on children and other vulnerable people. I assure my noble friend that that will be undertaken soon.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, should the main focus of attention not be online? After all, that is where 80% of the gambling advertising spend goes. It is now leading to something like 10% of all 11 to 16 year-olds following gambling companies on social media. Does the Minister agree that we need to take more action to tackle online gambling advertising, and build on the new proposals from the Gambling Commission so that we can develop far tougher and more effective age-verification checks?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with the noble Lord. The reason I did not mention it is that the Question referred specifically to TV advertising. There are features that can be used to hide and avoid gambling advertising online, such as different settings, and GambleAware has advice on how to do that. We are monitoring this and taking action through the Government’s digital charter, but the noble Lord is right: online gambling is the largest sector; 37% of gambling takes place online.

[Lord Clarke of Hampstead (Lab)]

My Lords, while the concern about online and television advertising is quite understandable, can the Minister say whether, in his discussions with the bookmakers’ representatives, they look at high street advertising? If you go into a betting shop, as I do quite frequently, you see lurid adverts for how much money you can get for a small amount. If you are waiting for a bus, you have time to read that. Television advertising is fleeting, but the constant picture of a miracle solution to people’s economic problems is a great temptation. As this Question deals with vulnerable people, we should bear that in mind.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with the noble Lord. Part of the gambling licensing conditions that betting organisations have to abide by are that they should act responsibly and specifically not target young and vulnerable people. It is up to the Gambling Commission to make sure they abide by their licensing conditions.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, when the Minister looks at the effect of gambling on young people, will he take into account the survey conducted by ParentZone yesterday about a new phenomenon called skin gambling? It said:

“Our survey confirmed it is wide-spread, with 10% of children across the UK aged 13-18 revealing they have gambled skins in some form. This percentage amounts to approximately 448,744 children”.


This is surely one of the new phenomena now appearing in social media and elsewhere targeted at young people, and the Government need always to be ahead of the game in these kinds of circumstances.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The Government are aware of that, and when in-game items such as skins can be used to place a bet or gamble, and be converted into cash, it is considered gambling and requires a licence. The Gambling Commission has taken action and prosecuted unlicensed gambling of in-game items known as skins. We are seeking to work with the video games industry to raise awareness of that and explore solutions, but I take the noble Lord’s point. We are aware of gambling in games and it is a new issue of which we are taking account.

[Lord Haselhurst (Con)]

My Lords, while I am reassured by what my noble friend said about measuring the effects of gambling advertising in sport in particular, especially with football, may I ask him to think about the total effect of the amount of advertising that can now occur, both at a football match and affecting those watching it on television? It is not only the sponsorship of the kit—and maybe the replica kit that follows from it—but the advertising boards that go around the ground. On those channels that have advertising breaks, you get a further bombardment of the joys of gambling.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, we are aware of that. That is why we are very pleased that the whistle-to-whistle ban stops such advertisements being shown during half-time, for example. Just under half the advertising will now disappear during live sporting events. That is particularly significant because it will stop the in-play betting which is such a prominent feature of gambling on live sporting events.

Gambling: Children

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the prevalence of gambling among children and young people.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, protecting children is a priority for the Government. There are strict controls to prevent underage gambling. In 2011, 23% of 11 to 15 year-olds had gambled in the last week, including with friends. Last year, it was 12%. On the other hand, the Gambling Commission’s Young People & Gambling 2018 report shows an increase to 14%, though not to earlier levels. Sample sizes are small, and we do not know if this is a trend. We are of course monitoring the situation very carefully.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

I thank the Minister for his reply. At a time when the gambling industry is spending about £1.5 billion a year on encouraging gambling, when children are seeing three gambling adverts every day on average and when 55,000 teenagers in this country are now classified as problem gamblers, we need to look at what is happening particularly online, where young people most often see the adverts, which is outside all the previous criteria for regulation. What are Her Majesty’s Government doing to regulate online advertising, which is particularly focused on our young people?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate is right that advertising is increasingly going online, although it is not only there. Of course, there are already strict rules to ensure advertisements do not exploit vulnerable people or specifically target children. Those apply online as well. The Advertising Standards Authority has made it clear that age-restricted advertisements online must be actively targeted away from children. However, the evidence is not clear, so GambleAware will publish significant research on the impact of advertising on children this year, including information about how much they see online. The ASA also proactively monitors online advertising, and we will consider all the new evidence carefully.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, online advertising for gambling is relatively recent. Frankly, while I do not believe in banning things, this is feeding gambling addiction and many families are badly affected by this. Although I am against banning things, on this occasion I say to my noble friend that we should ban it.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am glad that normally my noble friend does not ban things without the correct amount of evidence. The issue here is that there is actually not conclusive evidence on the harms that this does. We are of course aware that there is certain evidence out there, and we are commissioning more. GambleAware is going to look at the influence and extent of online advertising and the effect that it has. If there are clear lessons to be learned, we will take action on that.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that there are games aimed at children that, although not strictly classified as gambling, actually encourage them into gambling habits? There are also games like mystery boxes that essentially are open to children and could be considered as gambling. Surely we need a much more proactive approach to doing something about this.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, that is exactly why the Gambling Commission is consulting on requiring age verification before allowing free-to-play demo games to be downloaded. However, that will apply only to games hosted by gambling operators. We are aware of the problem of games and are waiting for GambleAware to do its consultation, and we will certainly take the issue that the noble Lord has raised into account.

[Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)]

My Lords, the most common way in which children and young people enter the route into gambling is by the purchase of scratch cards and lottery tickets. These are prominently displayed in many outlets, and it is often difficult for the seller to determine the age of the customer. Is it not time that these cards were put behind shutters, in the same way that cigarette packets are, so as not to entice young people to enter the route of gambling?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, although there may be an intuitive link there, there is not actually conclusive evidence that that is how problem gambling starts. The other point to make is that, while I am not sure that it is a majority, a significant number of children who buy scratch cards and National Lottery-type products do it with their parents’ money and indeed with their parents actually present. The question of whether 16 and 17 year-olds should be allowed to use the National Lottery will be part of the review for the fourth competition for the next national lottery licence.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, we know that half a million young people are gambling regularly. I am concerned about the support that we can give to those young people who become addicted. I wrote a Written Question to the Minister and I was very grateful for his detailed reply. We have a national facility, the National Problem Gambling Clinic, and I think we are due to open one in Leeds, but that covers only a small percentage of young people who need support. There is a charity called Beacon Counselling, which is working with the NHS trust in Lancashire to provide a facility. Could the Minister look at that and see how we could roll it out to the rest of the country?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I certainly will look at that. We are looking at treatment for all problem gamblers and for children in particular. That is why I am pleased that the NHS long-term plan is committed to expanding dedicated support for those experiencing problems with gambling. As the noble Lord says, GambleAware is setting up a new clinic in Leeds. We will see how that goes, and we are working with the NHS to see if more treatment centres are needed.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, we have had a number of questions relating to gambling in recent times. Indeed, there is another Question tomorrow relating to advertising, which is why I would like to ask a question elsewhere in the arena, as it were. I have seen the figure of 450,000 mentioned—it comes in the Gambling Commission report—but a different interpretation is put on it according to where people come from. I have a briefing paper here from Sky Betting & Gaming that puts an entirely different interpretation on the figure and even questions the way in which it is being used by those in favour of clamping down. So my question is—and this has come up in debates again and again—is it not time, in all these consultations and studies that are being done, that we had a serious, focused look at compiling evidence upon which comments can be made? At the moment, there is far too much of a fissiparous nature that allows people to draw whatever conclusions they like. I just wanted to use that word; I am sorry, it just came to me. I wanted to put the Minister on the back foot. Secondly—

--- Later in debate ---

[Noble Lords]

Yes.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I understood some of his question. The noble Lord is right: as I keep on saying, the evidence is not certain, so we are having a serious look at it. For example, Public Health England is doing wider research, which it will produce in the second half of this year, measuring the evidence for gambling-related harms. It is looking at all the available evidence and trying to get some consensus about what the truth is—reading the newspapers, I find that one moment you get a report saying one thing and the next you get one on a different basis. We are taking an overall view, and there is a significant amount of other research that we are doing this year through GambleAware and the Advertising Standards Authority.

Online Pornography (Commercial Basis) Regulations 2018

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 10 October be approved.

Special attention drawn to the instrument by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 38th Report, 4th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (Sub-Committee B).

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, the Digital Economy Act 2017 introduced a requirement for commercial providers of online pornography to have robust age-verification controls in place to prevent children and young people under 18 accessing pornographic material. Section 14(2) of the Act states:

“The Secretary of State may make regulations specifying … circumstances in which material is or is not to be regarded as made available on a commercial basis”.


In a sense, this is a small part of the legislative jigsaw needed to implement age verification: indeed, it is the last piece. I therefore beg to move that the draft regulations and the guidance published by the British Board of Film Classification, which is the designated regulator in respect of these measures, on age-verification arrangements and ancillary service providers be approved.

I bring to the attention of the House the concerns of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and thank them for their work. I will address their concerns in a moment and the Motion to Regret later, but before considering the specific points related to this debate, I want to remind the House of why the Government introduced this requirement.

In the offline world, there are strict rules to prevent children accessing adult content. This is not true of the online world. A large amount of pornography is available on the internet in the UK, often for free, with little or no protection to ensure that those accessing it are old enough to do so. This is changing the way that young people understand healthy relationships, sex and consent. A 2016 report commissioned by the Children’s Commissioner and the NSPCC makes that clear. More than half of the children sampled had been exposed to online pornography by the age of 15 and nearly half of boys thought pornography was “realistic”. Just under half wished to emulate what they had seen. The introduction of a requirement for age-verification controls is a necessary step to tackle these issues and contributes towards our commitment to making the UK the safest place in the world to be online. I urge noble Lords, in the ensuing debate, to bear this primary objective in mind and help us ensure the commencement of age verification as soon as possible.

The draft Online Pornography (Commercial Basis) Regulations set out the basis on which pornographic material is to be regarded as made available on a commercial basis. The regulations cover material on websites and applications that charge for access and they also cover circumstances where a person makes pornographic material available on the internet for free but that person receives other payment or reward in connection with doing so, for example through advertising revenue. It was clear from debates during the passage of the Digital Economy Act that it was not Parliament’s intention that social media sites on which pornography is only part of the overall content should be required to have age verification. That is reflected in the draft regulations we are debating today. We have set a threshold to ensure proportionality where material is made available free of charge. Thus there is an exemption for people making pornographic material available where it is less than one-third of the content on the website or application on which it is made available. This will ensure that websites that do not derive a significant proportion of their overall commercial benefit from pornography are not regarded as commercial pornographic websites. However, should such a website or app be marketed as making pornographic material available, a person making pornographic material available on that website or app will be considered to be making it available on a commercial basis, even if it constitutes less than one-third of the total.

This is a proportionate way of introducing a new policy. I am confident that these measures represent the most effective way of commencing this important new policy, but my department will, of course, keep it under review. Indeed, the Secretary of State must report on the regulatory framework within 12 to 18 months of commencement. In addition, the upcoming online harms White Paper will give us an opportunity to review the wider context of this policy.

We have also laid two pieces of BBFC guidance: the Guidance on Age-verification Arrangements and the Guidance on Ancillary Service Providers. The guidance on AV arrangements sets out the criteria by which the BBFC will assess that a person has met the requirements of Section 14 of the Digital Economy Act to ensure that pornographic material is not normally accessible by those under 18. The criteria mandate: an effective control mechanism at the point of access to verify that a user is aged 18 or over; strict requirements on age-verification data; a requirement to ensure that “revisits” do not allow automatic re-entry; and prevention of non-human operators exercising the age-verification regime. The BBFC also provided examples of non-compliant features to help interested companies. The latter guidance provided a non-exhaustive list of ancillary service providers that the BBFC will consider. This list is not exhaustive, to ensure that this policy remains flexible to future developments. The BBFC published draft versions of both pieces of guidance and ran a public consultation for four weeks on the content. The draft guidance laid before this House takes account of comments received from affected companies and others.

I turn to the views of the JCSI, to which I referred earlier. We have been clear that although it will be a major step forward, age verification is not a complete answer to preventing children viewing online pornography, and we know that we are doing something difficult. Indeed, we are the first country anywhere in the world to introduce such a measure. We have considered the JCSI concerns carefully. We do not believe that the variation in the language of the legislation, between “met” and “applied”, will be difficult for a court to interpret. As for the committee’s concerns about the content threshold, the committee anticipates difficulty with the application and interpretation of the regulation. As I have already said, the regulation will not apply in a case where it is reasonable for the age-verification regulator to assume—those words are important—that pornographic material makes up less than one-third of the content. As is stated in the BBFC guidance, the BBFC will seek to engage and work with a person who may be in contravention of the requirement before commencing enforcement action.

I am aware that the committee has also drawn the special attention of both Houses to these two draft pieces of guidance, because in its view they fail to contain the guidance required by Section 25(1) of the 2017 Act and contain material that should not have been included. Section 3, paragraph 5 of the Guidance on Age-verification Arrangements sets out the criteria on age-verification arrangements which the regulator will treat as complying with age verification. The guidance then goes on, in paragraph 6, to give examples of features which, in isolation, do not comply with the age-verification requirement. This approach ensures fairness. It takes a product-neutral approach and, rather than recommending a particular solution, sets out principles to encourage innovation. The ancillary services providers’ guidance provides a non-exhaustive list of classes of providers which the age-verification regulator may consider as within scope in Section 3, paragraph 3. However, in order to ensure that this policy remains flexible for future developments, it is necessary that this is a non-exhaustive list. Where new classes of ancillary services appear in the future, the BBFC’s guidance explains the process by which these services will be informed.

The guidance includes additional material, as this is a new policy, and the regulator considered that it was important for stakeholders that its guidance set out the wider context in which the age-verification regulator will carry out regulation. This includes valuable guidance on matters such as the BBFC’s approach and powers, and material on data protection. We find it somewhat perverse that it should be prevented from including helpful guidance simply because it was not specifically mentioned in the Act.

We are also aware of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s special interest report. That committee raised some similar concerns to the JCSI; for example, on the content threshold and the requirements in the BBFC’s guidance. The responses to the concerns of the SLSC on these points are the same as the responses we have just given to the JSCI reports.

However, the SLSC also suggested that the House might want to ask what action the Government would take to tackle pornographic material available that does not fall within the criteria set out in the regulations. I appreciate that some pornography is available by means not covered by our regulations. This was the subject of extensive discussion during the passage of the Act. In particular, concern has been expressed about social media platforms. We expect those platforms to enforce their own terms and conditions and to protect children from harmful content. Indeed, the Government have been clear that online platforms must do more to protect users from such harmful content. We will set out our plans for new legislation to ensure that companies make their platforms safer, in the forthcoming online harms White Paper.

I recognise that age verification is not a complete answer but I am proud that this Government are leading the way internationally in our actions to protect children online. I beg to move.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, I am pleased to speak in general support of the regulations and guidance. They relate to matters which I and others raised during the passage of the Digital Economy Bill in 2017 and, more broadly, to issues debated by the House a couple of years ago in a balloted debate that I introduced. The subject of that debate was the impact of pornography on our society. While there was some disagreement over the impact of pornography on adults, there was virtual unanimity that children needed to be protected from pornography—as far as this could reasonably be achieved. I seem somehow, by default, to have become the episcopal expert on pornography. I am trying to live that down. It is just the way it has fallen—although I often find myself talking from these Benches about things I have not had much experience of.

The regulations deal with protecting children through the introduction of robust age-verification procedures for accessing at least some pornographic sites. I welcome them but I note that there remains good evidence for believing that adult access to pornography is also often harmful. The recent report on sexual harassment by the Women and Equalities Select Committee in the other place made this point in a new context, particularly in relation to violent pornography. My welcome of the regulations and guidance is also tempered by some questions which they pose, and which I would like to put to the Minister.

My main concern relates to access to pornography on websites that do not charge for access. Provided their pornographic content is limited to one-third of their total content, they are exempted from the regulations. They may not charge but they may make money from advertising and other sources. What is the rationale for choosing one-third and not, say, 10%? Parents really do not want their children to stumble across online pornography and arguably children are more likely to do that if it is a website that does not charge in the first place. Why is it one-third? I realise that enforcement against every site would be a challenge, but surely the obligation to use access by age verification should be on all sites which promote pornography. What we need is a culture change in relation to child protection and not a partial, piecemeal and limited approach, which I fear these regulations, in some respects, provide.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions and for the myriad questions which I will try to answer, in a slightly random order. It is important that we take a bit of time to discuss these; as many noble Lords have said, this is the start of something quite complicated. As I said at the beginning, we ought to bear in mind that we are trying to protect children. In the debates during the passage of the Digital Economy Bill, the Government always acknowledged that they would not have a complete solution, as many noble Lords said and as I mentioned during my opening remarks. We will take on board noble Lords’ comments. Indeed, we have shown—this is a partial answer to the question of why it has taken so long—that we have consulted quite widely; we have discussed the wording of the regulations themselves and the guidelines; and the Secretary of State’s guidelines to the BBFC, which the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned, were available during the passage of the Digital Economy Bill.

We have tried to involve people, which is right given that we are at the beginning of something unique in the world. When we come to talk—I put a certain amount of emphasis on this—about social media and some of the areas that we do not cover in these regulations, we will look at those either in the review to come within 12 to 18 months or in the online harms White Paper. We are still discussing that White Paper and are still open to ideas about what it should include. I am pleased to say that the Secretary of State will make a meeting available to all Peers to discuss what they think should be in the White Paper. We will do that as soon as we can; I will let Peers know about it in due course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, was about to leap to her feet but, to save her doing so, I mention to the Minister that he did not answer the question which she posed, and which was picked up by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, about whether he would find time for the excellent two-paragraph Bill which she has in process and which would solve many of these problems.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I had not forgotten that. It would obviously be difficult for me to commit to finding the necessary time but I will take that back to the department. I am not sure that it is currently within the plans of the Chief Whip to bring forward that legislation but I will ask. I understand the point that is being made but, as I said, the issue may well be covered within the review. I am afraid I cannot go any further than that tonight.

As for ancillary service providers, the BBFC and the DDCMS have been engaging with several companies. They have already agreed to act, as doing so is in line with their current terms of service. Therefore, we are optimistic that the voluntary approach will work, and of course that will be reviewed.

The right reverend Prelate, the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and others talked about the rationale for choosing one-third of content as the appropriate threshold. During the passage of the Bill, it was established that the focus should be on commercial pornography sites and not on social media. There were good reasons for that but I do not want to revisit them—that is what was decided. The one-third threshold was regarded as proportionate in introducing this new policy where sites make pornography available free of charge. However, websites that market themselves as pornographic will also be required to have age verification, even if less than a third of the content is pornographic.

A third is an arbitrary amount. It was discussed and consulted on, and we think that it is a good place to start on a proportionate basis. We will keep this matter under review and, as I said, it will be one of the obvious things to be taken into account during the 12 to 18-month review. The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, asked how it will be measured. It will be measured by assessing the number of pieces of content rather than the length of individual videos. It will include all pornographic images, videos and individual bits of content, but the point to remember is that the threshold is there so that a decision can be made on whether it is reasonable for the regulator to assume that pornographic content makes up more than one-third of the entire content. This will be done by sampling the various sites.

The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, asked about ISP blocking and suggested that everyone would try to game the system to get out of meeting the requirements. That is not what we believe. The BBFC has already engaged with ISPs and we are confident that this will be an effective sanction. The wording in the guidance indicates that the regulator should take a “proportionate approach”. However, we are grateful for the noble Earl’s help. I am sure that he will also help during the review and later in the process when it comes to online harms. I see that he wants to help now.

[The Earl of Erroll]

It is not the ISPs that I am worried about; it is the websites that will game the system on notification, appeals and so on. That is the bit that will take a long time.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

We are confident it will work, but we will have to see when it comes to the review. It is an arbitrary figure that we came to by consensus. I will leave it at that.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about education for children about sex and relationships. We are extending that by making relationships education compulsory in all primary schools. Relationships and sex education is compulsory in all secondary schools and health education compulsory in primary and secondary schools. We understand that it is important. Together with the protection of children we are introducing today, we will have to keep an eye on it. I notice that the DCMS committee in the other place is launching an inquiry into, among other things, the effects of social media on people’s attitudes, including those of children. In a sense, we are all learning as we go, because the technology is developing. It is something we are aware of and keeping an eye on, and we take the point.

As for the big issue of the evening, and why social media sites are not in the scope, that was a decision taken after a debate during the passage of the Digital Economy Bill. We did not want to prevent the benefits of social media sites. But I confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, that we will consider that in the online harms White Paper. Noble Lords will be welcome to add their thoughts on that very soon—either just before or after Christmas.

As noble Lords have mentioned, there is a memorandum of understanding that clarifies the role of the ICO and what powers it will have instead of the BBFC. The BBFC will administer the voluntary certification scheme that will hold AV services to the highest standards of privacy protection and cybersecurity. We expect the vast majority of AV services to seek accreditation. Furthermore, the BBFC will inform the ICO of any non-certified age-verification solutions it finds, and the ICO will be able to take a look at them. Even if they do not want to apply for voluntary certification, the ICO will make sure they are subject to the full rigours of the GDPR.

I have covered most of the main points; I will look at Hansard and write to noble Lords if I have not covered any. I think it is evident from all the contributions from across the House that this is a complex and novel policy that requires sensitive handling. Having listened to all contributions and heard limited support for the regulations as they stand, albeit with some suggestions for improvement, I remain of the view that these regulations set out clearly what will fall within their scope. I think the guidance from the BBFC sets out clearly how it will assess the requirements of Section 14 and clarifies the BBFC’s approach to payment and ancillary service providers.

We are on the verge of doing something important that has the potential to make a real difference to the experience children have online and to make the internet a safer place for them, so I finish where I began. We are here to protect children, and for that reason I ask the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, to withdraw his Motion, or indeed not to move it, and respectfully ask the House to approve the two guidances and the statutory instrument.

Motion agreed.