Human Rights: Iran

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Mr Burrowes has permission from the mover of the debate and the Minister to make a short contribution.

European Union (Croatian Accession and Irish Protocol) Bill

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Graham Stringer]

Like the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), I rise with unexpected and particular joy, because I think this is the first time the Whips have asked me to make a speech about Europe. This is not a usual occurrence, and I doubt they will be pleased with what I have to say.

Like the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and others, one cannot but wish Croatia well. It has had a terrible and bloody history within living memory, and I certainly wish it well in its progress towards democracy.

I want to make two main points. The first is about the relationship of this country and this Government with Europe and what Croatia’s accession means in the light of that policy, and the second is about the details of its accession. In relationship to the European Union as a whole, the Government have shown themselves in this debate to be quite schizophrenic. My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) and the Minister for Europe—I thank him for his courtesy on Second Reading and in Committee, and for answering the questions I asked—offered an analysis of the European Union that might have been appropriate in 1972 and 1975, and even in the early 1990s, after the collapse of the iron curtain. That European Union was described as a free market of sovereign democratic countries coming together under the full freedoms of a European Union in which democracy had been pooled. I have to say to my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly, however, that the concept of pooled democracy is, in philosophy, a category mistake. If we pool sovereignty, we lose sovereignty. The concept of pooling is not consistent with the concept of sovereignty.

The view exists that the European Union is progressing and supporting democracy in areas that were at war or previously had no democracy, and that free trade will take care of everything else, but we can see what is actually happening in Europe. We hear the Prime Minister telling us that he is going to fight until his last breath, almost, over the European budget. We hear that the European bureaucrats and some of the European countries are living in a parallel universe. We can see that the creation of the euro has led to deflation, unemployment and a lack of democracy in the eurozone, and we can see the Brussels bureaucracy wanting to take more control for itself.

In fact, we can see a European Union in crisis, and it is difficult for this country to know exactly how to respond to that issue. I believe that, rather than accepting the Panglossian view that all is well within the EU, it is time to be seriously awkward. Perhaps the Bill presents one of many opportunities for us to be that. The European Union is going in a very different direction from the one in which the Prime Minister, the Minister for Europe and those on my Front Bench want. We want to bring more powers back to the House of Commons and to the Government. We want to see more of a free trade association and less power going to the European bureaucracy. We certainly do not want a fiscal union, a banking union, or the much closer integration that seems likely within the eurozone. That would present a serious threat to the City of London, which, depending on the state of the economy, can account for about 15% of our economy. If we do not want those things to happen, we need to state clearly where we want to go. I do not believe that we want to go—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I have given the hon. Gentleman some latitude, but it would be useful if he mentioned Croatia and Ireland now and again. We are debating Third Reading of the Bill.

[Graham Stringer]

I am grateful for your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker.

In looking at what was happening generally in the European Union, I was simply asking, in relation to Croatia’s accession, whether we should continue to adopt an attitude that might have been appropriate 30 years ago but probably is not now. If we want to get some sovereignty back, and if we want to pay less into the European Union, we should negotiate hard at every opportunity, as the hon. Member for North East Somerset said. I do not see the point of being communautaire and good Europeans at one table, then going into the next room and saying that we are not good Europeans and that our objective is completely different. Every treaty and negotiation presents an opportunity to put forward our view.

I also have to say that the Conservative Members who moved amendments were in a minority, as there is a consensus in the House on Europe. It is worrying for our democracy, however, that that consensus is so at odds with public opinion outside, which is profoundly sceptical about deepening and enlarging the European Union, and cries out for its own say in a referendum—not on a specific issue such as Croatian accession, but on basic principles such as the public voting us in to pass laws and to represent them in this place. Should we really have passed so much power and sovereignty to the European Union?

[Graham Stringer]

I bow to the hon. Gentleman’s greater knowledge of the Carlton club than I have or am ever likely to have in future. My guess is, though, that his analogy is accurate.

Let me finish on the detail of the Croatian accession. I think there is a fundamental problem in the Government’s arguments. I have good will and everybody should have good will towards Croatia, but it is absolutely clear that the country does not meet the criteria for entry at present. What we are being asked, then, is to believe that if we agree to the treaty now, changes will take place.

There is some history to draw upon, and not just the mistakes that have been mentioned throughout the debate in respect of Romania and Bulgaria. Countries sometimes reform and improve, yet go backwards. Hungary is a clear example, because it is moving away from the rule of law. If it had been carrying on as it is at present it is doubtful that it would have been allowed into the European Union, so to ask the House to agree to something that does not comply with the criteria now on the basis that it will be compliant in the future is, I believe, an act of faith and optimism that is not justified.

I leave Members with this thought. We have had debates in Westminster Hall and in this Chamber about the benefits and disbenefits of the European arrest warrant. In agreeing to Croatia becoming part of the European Union, allowing a country that currently has very poor judicial standards and a very poor judiciary, albeit one that it is trying to improve, we are giving that country the power to arrest British citizens very quickly. I worry about that. It can be problematic enough in France, Germany and other EU countries when people are arrested in this country for things that are not against this country’s law, but those countries at least have well established, albeit different, judicial systems to our own. Croatia, however, does not have that, so it might well leave some of our citizens vulnerable to the European arrest warrant.

I wish Croatia well. There is clearly a huge consensus here for its joining coming the European Union, but I worry about our relationship with the EU and I also worry that Croatia, when it becomes a full member, will not have met all the criteria.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I do not need to declare my membership of the Carlton club, but I feel I should.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Monday 10th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr MacShane]

If I may, I will try to speak to the clause. I might make other comments on Third Reading, but I hope not to detain us long. What is extraordinary about this clause is its sheer impertinence. Our Eurosceptic friends in the Conservative party are for ever telling us that we do not want Europe interfering in our affairs. The proposed legislation, however, says that we should wait until every other national Parliament has made up its mind—

“laid an order certifying that the constitutional requirements of all the members states of the EU have been complied with.”

What business or right is it of this Committee to demand that the constitutional requirements of every other sovereign nation state be met before we make up our minds, and until

“all the related and legal challenges have been disposed of”?

Let us imagine each of the other 26 fellow EU member states adopting the same clause and waiting for their Parliament to ratify the ESM treaty and all legal challenges to be completed.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. The right hon. Gentleman is talking about amendment 1 as opposed to clause 1.

[Mr MacShane]

As ever, Mr Evans, you are right. I will not repeat my speech but I think the Committee has got the point.

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Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

We now move to clause 2, amendment 1, for which Mr MacShane has already whetted our appetite.

Clause 2

Extent, commencement and short title

[Mr Clappison]

I beg to move amendment 1, page 1, line 14, leave out subsection (2) and insert—

‘(2) This Act shall not come into force until the day after the Secretary of State has laid an order certifying that the constitutional requirements of all the member states of the EU have been complied with and all the related legal challenges have been disposed of.’.

I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) for giving the Committee a perhaps unintended trailer of the film, as it were, but I hope to persuade hon. Friends that the film is rather better than his trailer for it. The gist of his argument was: what business is it of ours and how dare we lecture Europe on what it should do? But there is a difference between what he said and the amendment, which is concerned with what Europe has decided and how it takes effect in this country. That is rather a different matter, and I hope that I will persuade the Committee that important questions arise from it.

The amendment, which I do not intend to press to a vote, is designed to probe some of those questions. In the negotiations leading up to the amendment to article 136 of the EU treaty, the Prime Minister secured a good deal for Britain. It was a good deal for reasons I shall explain shortly. I do not want to go into the background of how in May 2010 the country became committed to the European financial stabilisation mechanism, which was different from the European stability mechanism, which we are talking about now, and from the European financial stability facility—there is no shortage of such acronyms and measures. In fact, I asked the House of Commons Library this morning how many attempts the EU had made since 2008 to resolve the euro crisis, but it said that it was difficult to say in the time available because there had been so many and it was so complex. However, it gave me a rough estimate of 17, including the latest one from Mr Draghi—we must hope that the 17th is more successful than the previous 16.

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[Dr Julian Lewis]

Is not the real choice that is going to have to be faced that the euro will be dismantled in an orderly way, or will collapse in a disorderly way? Is not the danger that we feel that we cannot be seen to be sabotaging this project, in which so many of our colleagues in the European Union have invested so much energy and treasure, and yet, by not speaking the truth about the matter, we are making more likely a disorderly collapse, rather than orderly dismantling?

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

The hon. Gentleman will answer that intervention through the prism of amendment 1, please.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Of course, Mr Evans. Amendment 1 is essentially about delaying our approval of this measure until such time as the eurozone countries have agreed, signed and sealed it. That is a very sensible way forward. The hon. Gentleman is right, and I and others have made the point a number of times that there are examples of single currencies that have been dissolved in an orderly and managed way. When the Soviet Union was dissolved, the first thing its countries did, wisely, was to create their own currencies. Such countries were able to choose an appropriate parity and interest rate, and to do what was necessary to make their own economies work well in relation to others. That is obviously the way forward, and in the journals it is increasingly being said that the dismantling of the euro, which would enable countries to reflate their economies, would be far less painful than what is happening now in some of the eurozone’s weaker countries, which is dreadful for working people. There is mass unemployment and falling living standards, and growth in Greece has fallen by upwards of 20%. They really are in serious pain and difficulty, and it could not be worse if they re-created the drachma, devalued and started selling cheap holidays to British people who want to enjoy the sunshine of Greece. That is their way forward, and the same is true for other countries.

There has been talk about how to help our Irish friends. I have many Irish friends and constituents, and I have said before—even last week—that the way forward for the Irish is to persuade them to re-create the punt, depreciate and come to a sensible parity with sterling. We are their major economic partner, and they belong much more in the sterling zone than the eurozone. That would be massively beneficial to the Irish, including the relatives of many of the people who live in my constituency.

Delay is absolutely sensible and the right thing to do. I ask that, even now, the Government consider delaying our ratification until such time as the eurozone countries have all signed and sealed the deal.

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[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Evans. The Minister for Education and Skills in the Welsh Government has announced this afternoon that there is to be a regrading of English GCSE for those candidates in Wales who sat the Welsh Joint Education Committee examination board. As you will be aware, there are also many candidates in England who sit their English language GCSE on that examination board. Have you or Mr Speaker received notification from the Secretary of State for Education of an intention to come to the House to respond to this development, in relation to the controversy about GCSE English grading this year?

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Thank you for that point of order. No indication has been received that a Minister wishes to make a statement on that matter or any other, but should that change, I am sure that the House will be informed in the usual manner; and those on the Treasury Bench will have heard the point of order.

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[Mr Baron]

rose—

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. We are going a little wide of amendment 1.

[Mr Baron]

I take your point, Mr Evans. My hon. Friend was clearly not listening, because I was talking about currency blocs, and to the best of my knowledge we were not a member of a currency bloc in 1967. However—I throw this back at him—I do not for one moment believe that he is arguing that our exit from the exchange rate mechanism in 1992 did this country any harm at all. In fact, our economic recovery kicked in, almost to the day, because we left what was in effect a currency bloc.

In summary, I fully endorse the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere. We should delay the introduction of the ESM. There are too many questions that need answering. I would very much welcome some clarity on the points that I have raised, particularly about the design flaws in the ESM. I would also ask the Minister for Europe to address the fundamental point: why the Government continue to believe that by joining in the political mantra that we need to save the euro, we are doing our eurozone partners any favours. I would point out to him that all the economic evidence suggests that by sticking to that mantra, and indeed by implementing the policy, we are prolonging the agony and delaying the inevitable.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Monday 3rd September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Martin Horwood]

The hon. Gentleman is very free in his criticism of the IMF—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is not only in danger of crossing the Floor, but is turning his back to the House. Please will he address the House?

[Martin Horwood]

I beg your pardon, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will try to do better.

The hon. Gentleman is free with his criticism of the IMF and the EU and everyone else, but may I ask him a basic economic question? If not this, what? Does he advocate the chaotic disintegration of the eurozone? Does he ask the Germans not to seek guarantees for the finance they are providing for other European economies? Does he suggest that there should be no legal framework behind the necessary steps to tackle structural deficits in the eurozone countries? I can think of nothing that would more surely damn the whole European economy, including ours, than a chaotic disintegration of the eurozone.

EU Charter of Fundamental Human Rights

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Before I call the shadow Minister, I advise the House that I will interrupt the debate at 6 pm to put the Question on the deferred Divisions motion, and then the debate will continue. I do not want to surprise anybody.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. A number of colleagues wish to participate, but I should remind the House that the debate is time limited, and we wish to leave some time for the Minister to respond.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. With the proviso that I am going to interrupt proceedings at 6 pm, may I advise hon. Members to be conscious that if they want to give the Minister any time to wind up, they must take into account the fact that the Question must be put at 6.16 pm?

UK-Turkey Relations

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Will Members please resume their seats? We will now start a 12-minute limit, with the usual injury time of one minute for up to two interventions.

Foreign Affairs and International Development

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Nic Dakin]

My hon. Friend is right and makes her point extremely well.

Eliminating world hunger and helping get 67 million children to school can be driven through global leadership, which we could have shown by taking advantage of the cross-party consensus and legislating for 0.7% of gross national income to be spent on international aid from 2013. That would have resonated around the world, to the benefit of us all in the developed and developing worlds.

Let me deal with other matters. I welcome the Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill. I and other hon. Members have urged action on the matter for some time. As Alex Godfrey of the North Lincolnshire branch of the National Farmers Union writes,

“thank you for your help on the groceries code adjudicator. Finally it was in the Queen’s Speech! I was really pleased to hear that complaints from third parties will be allowed.”

Alex puts his finger on a key issue, and I will keep my eye on it as the Bill progresses to the statute book. The Government need to provide the adjudicator with the powers to ensure a fair deal across the supply chain. That means an adjudicator with the power to investigate the claims of trade associations or whistleblowers, and to penalise companies that breach the code.

Sadly, the welcome for the grocery adjudicator is more than outweighed by the disappointment felt by the woman in her 80s who rushed to see me last week because she was so downhearted and dispirited by rumours that the reform of adult care and support was to be delayed. Thirty years ago, her son had an accident that left him severely paralysed. He is strong willed, intelligent and resilient and so, despite his disabilities, he managed to continue to make a contribution to society. However, he needs full-time, round-the-clock care, which his mother provides. She has done that with no support forthcoming from the state. Uncomplaining and determined, she was nevertheless distressed to learn that the Government were putting the reform of adult care and support on the backburner—on the “too difficult” pile.

Another local woman writes movingly of her experience of supporting her mother, who suffers from dementia:

“What I want to know is which agencies are out there for us to call on to support us to care for our Mum. It doesn’t seem right that an adult as vulnerable as my Mum is not under the care of a social care or mental health team or a Memory Clinic. I don’t care whether she has dementia or Alzheimer’s or not. What I do care about is that her needs are not being met.

I have no desire to take any of the individual services to task. I just want to move forward in a positive way with caring for my Mum and know where to turn to receive the necessary support when problems arise. Surely there should be a clear sign-posting to people who like me find themselves in this stressful and difficult position. Where we have Sure Start we should also have Sure End…There is a desperate need for a service like this and this need will become greater.”

Adult care and support is one of biggest challenges for us. We should not play politics with it, but we should all put our shoulder to the wheel and use our united, combined and determined efforts to find real solutions. A draft Bill is disappointing, but it is also an opportunity. The hopes and fears of many people throughout the land, with stories like those of the ageing mother with the paraplegic son, and the caring daughter with the severely ailing mother, are focused on us all. We owe it to them to step up to the plate.

The issues in the Gracious Speech about which people have contacted me are therefore international aid, the grocery adjudicator and adult care and support. However, what most people wanted and talked to me about was absent from it. Where is the plan for jobs and growth? Where is the industrial policy that manufacturing areas such as Scunthorpe badly need? Where are the plans to help energy-intensive industries such as the steel industry? Sadly, the Business Secretary was right that the Government have “no compelling vision” to address those issues.

Like my constituents, I am underwhelmed by the Government’s programme for the forthcoming Session. It is a missed opportunity, a damp squib and a disappointment.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I call Seema Malhotra, who must resume her seat no later than 9.30.

Foreign Secret Intelligence and State Secrets Privilege

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Browne]

The point I wish to make to the hon. Gentleman and to all Members is that we cannot be confident that we will have access to, or have secured, all the information that we could possibly hope to secure in order to safeguard the United Kingdom national interest, so, when we have an opportunity to draw on the additional information provided by reliable and long-standing allies, it is in our interests and, if reciprocated, in their interests for us to pool our information so as better to protect the citizens of our country and the country with which we enter into that reciprocal arrangement. That is the basis on which we operate, with a limited number of countries but we do have that basis, and we have to be confident, as do other countries, that such information will be handled sensitively and consistent with the undertakings that have been given. That is the basis on which we seek to discharge our obligations.

The point I seek to make in conclusion, however, is that we do not regard safeguarding our national security, and the means by which we wish to disclose such information in certain circumstances, necessarily to be inconsistent with protecting the liberties and way of life of our citizens. Indeed, we regard it as necessary that the two operate in tandem, so I want to reassure the House that we are extremely mindful of the need, as I say, to protect those essential liberties.

We must do all we can to achieve both aims, taking account of the views that we have heard throughout the consultation process, and Ministers not just in my Department but in others, most particularly the Ministry of Justice, will have listened to this debate with interest and will do so to subsequent opportunities that Members have to feed their views into the process.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I wish the House, and those who work here, visit us and follow our proceedings, a very happy and peaceful Easter.

Question put and agreed to.

Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and Governance

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Owing to the debate under Standing Order 24 that has just ended, the time available for the debate on the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill has been reduced. It is therefore the Government’s intention, if necessary, to make more time available to complete the debate that is about to commence at a later date. I will give more details in the business statement tomorrow.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I am grateful to the Leader of the House for that clarification.

Iran

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baron]

No, I am going to make a little progress.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. May I remind Mr Baron that he has already taken 20 minutes? This is an over-subscribed debate, and we will impose an eight-minute limit on speeches after the Front-Bench contributions. He would be generous to his colleagues if he began to draw his remarks to close.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Will hon. Members resume their seats? I will explain the procedure to be applied so the House can follow what is going on. I will call an Opposition Member next. The Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of Sir Malcolm Rifkind, whom I will call after the first speaker from the Opposition side. I will then call another Opposition Back-Bench Member, then we go to both Front Benches. The time limit will then be formally applied. I say to those Members whom I call before that if they exceed eight minutes, plus two minutes for interventions taken, I will cough loudly. I may become even more explicit than that. I call Michael McCann.

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[Mr McCann]

Sadly, it is a consistency that runs through the regime, like lettering through a stick of rock, alongside all the actions of the Iranian Government and the Iranian leadership. What it tells me about the leadership that we are dealing with is that we must consider all possible measures to determine how to move forward.

Do I believe, as the motion suggests, that the use of force against Iran would be wholly counter-productive? I do not know the precise answer to that question, but what I do know is that ruling it out would be counter-productive. It would say to an extreme set of people that their tactics have paid off, and the willingness of the Iranian regime to ignore the international community and six UN Security Council resolutions, and to repress the Iranian people’s rights, tells me that diplomacy and sanctions should not be our only options. The Foreign Secretary pointed out on television yesterday, quite properly, the complex nature of the threat, and for those reasons, nothing should be ruled out.

I appreciate that many wish to speak, so I will finish on this point. Two weeks ago at a local high school in my constituency, I listened to a gentleman named Harry Bibring, who, as a 12-year-old in March 1938, witnessed Nazi troops march into Vienna. Days later, the persecution of the Jews started in that city. In that same year, the Peace Pledge Union, a British pacifist organisation, asked people to make this pledge:

“I renounce war, and am therefore determined not to support any kind of war. I am also determined to work for the removal of all causes of war.”

I am sure that all would agree that those are laudable aims and that all of us would be prepared to sign up to that pledge to remove all causes of war. But I am also acutely aware of Edmund Burke’s quote:

“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”

That is why I oppose the motion and will support the amendment.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Thank you for your self-restraint. I am sure that Sir Malcolm will do likewise.

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[Sir Malcolm Rifkind]

Panetta was probably referring to the consequences of an Israeli attempt to damage Iranian nuclear capability which, because the Israelis do not have cruise missiles or bunker-busting bombs, would clearly have a much more limiting effect, even if it had some limited success.

In the interests of time, I shall share my final point with the House. Sometimes the inference of those who argue against even the option of a military response is that the world would be a much more peaceful, happy and gentle place if only we renounced the use of force, even as an option, in resolving this dispute. I say to my hon. Friend, however, that we have to contemplate— for a very brief moment, Mr Deputy Speaker—the consequences of Iran becoming a nuclear weapon state. There is not just the one response, to which my hon. Friend referred—whereby the Saudis themselves, pretty certainly, feel obliged to become a nuclear weapon state, Egypt and Turkey perhaps follow them and, therefore, the middle east, which is already the most dangerous part of the world, becomes incredibly volatile for all the perfectly obvious reasons that I do not have to go into. The only alternative, which my hon. Friend touched on, is that in order to discourage any Saudi, Egyptian or Turkish response of going nuclear the United States would have to give a nuclear umbrella guarantee to the Arab and Gulf states of the region, just as it has to NATO members, to Japan and to South Korea. In each case, when the United States gives such a guarantee, however, the guarantee is not credible unless the United States has bases in the area, as it has had in western Europe and has in the far east.

My hon. Friend’s view leads to the point that, if Iran became a nuclear weapon state, to have any prospect of discouraging the Saudis and others from becoming nuclear powers themselves, we would have to envisage not just for a few weeks, a few months or the odd year or so, but for the indefinite future, the middle east as a region where the United States, far from disengaging, became more committed and involved than it ever has—committed by guarantee not just to go to war, but if necessary to use its nuclear weapons in the defence of what would then be its allies, in the sense that NATO is an alliance, alongside the need for bases in the region, with all the inflammatory consequences of American troops in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf on a permanent basis.

The stakes are very high, and my hon. Friend cannot just sleep quietly, saying, “I don’t think we should have the military option, and everything would be peaceful if only people accepted the judgment that I have come to.” It has to be an option. We must hope that it never comes to that, but it cannot be ruled out at this stage. It is no one’s interests that it should, and therefore I commend the amendment to the House.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I call Mr Jack Straw. The same unofficial time guidelines still apply.

[Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)]

Do I understand you correctly that the time limit is now on, Mr Deputy Speaker?

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

It is not yet official.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. The eight-minute limit now comes into effect, with the usual injury time for interventions.