Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Rosie Winterton Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th June 2022 Commons Chamber

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 73, in clause 2, page 3, line 11, leave out “one, two or”.

This amendment would require the ICRIR to comprise three other Commissioners, in addition to the Chief Commissioner and the Commissioner for Investigations. It is linked to an amendment to leave out paragraph 6 of Schedule 1.

Amendment 75, page 3, line 22, after “Troubles” insert

“sexual offences linked to conduct forming part of the Troubles”.

Amendment 74, page 3, line 25, at end insert—

“(4A) At least one Commissioner should have significant international experience or expertise.”

This amendment would include in the ICRIR’s functions referring Troubles-related sexual offences to prosecutors.

Amendment 76, page 3, line 41, at end insert

“and to the Northern Ireland Assembly and each House of Parliament”.

This amendment would require the ICRIR to provide a copy of its annual reports to Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Clause 2 stand part.

Amendment 91, in schedule 1, page 48, line 34, leave out paragraph 6.

This amendment would require the ICRIR to comprise three other Commissioners, in addition to the Chief Commissioner and the Commissioner for Investigations. It is linked to an amendment to Clause 2(3).

Amendment 113, page 48, line 37, at end insert—

‘(1A) The Secretary of State must convene the appointments panel before appointing the Commissioners.

(1B) In this Schedule “appointments panel” means—

(a) the Attorney General for Northern Ireland,

(b) a member of the Commission for Victims and Survivors for Northern Ireland,

(c) the person who is the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, and

(d) a person with experience of managing major criminal investigations, appointed to the panel by the Northern Ireland Justice Minister.

(1C) The appointments panel must make a recommendation in relation to the appointment of a Commissioner.

(1D) Any such recommendation must be made with the agreement of all the members of the appointments panel.

(1E) The Secretary of State must act in accordance with the recommendation of the appointments panel in appointing a person to be a Commissioner.’

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to gain the approval of an appointments panel before appointing a commissioner.

Amendment 92, page 49, line 8, at end insert—

‘(4A) The term of office of a person appointed as a Commissioner under paragraph 7(1) must not begin before—

(a) the person has, in connection with the appointment, appeared before the relevant select committee of the House of Commons, and

(b) the House of Commons has approved the appointment by resolution no earlier than 10 sitting days after the person appeared before the relevant select committee of the House of Commons.

(4B) Sub-paragraph (4A) does not apply if the person is appointed as a Commissioner on an acting basis, pending a further appointment being made.

(4C) The reference to the relevant select committee of the House of Commons—

(a) includes the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee and the Justice Committee,

(b) if the name of a Committee is changed, is a reference to that Committee by its new name, and

(c) if the functions of those Committees (or substantially corresponding functions) become functions of a different Committee or Committees of the House of Commons, is to be treated as a reference to the Committee or Committees by which the functions are exercisable.

(4D) Any question arising under sub-paragraph (4C) is to be determined by the Speaker of the House of Commons.’

This amendment would require the appointment of Commissioners to be subject to parliamentary scrutiny and approval.

That schedule 1 be the First schedule to the Bill.

Clause 3 stand part.

Amendment 77, in clause 4, page 4, line 19, after “would” insert “reasonably”.

Amendment 78, page 4, line 21, after “would” insert “reasonably”.

Amendment 79, page 4, line 23, after “would” insert “reasonably”.

Clause 4 stand part.

Amendment 80, in clause 5, page 4, line 35, leave out “reasonably”.

This amendment would remove a limitation on the material which the Commissioner of Investigations may require a relevant authority to make available to the ICRIR.

Amendment 81, page 4, line 38, leave out “may” and insert “must”.

Amendment 82, page 5, line 1, leave out “, in the view of that authority, may” and insert “are”.

Clauses 5 and 6 stand part.

That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill.

Clauses 7 and 8 stand part.

Amendment 83, in clause 9, page 7, line 43, leave out from “subsection (1)” to end of line 44.

This amendment would remove the condition of appropriateness for another family member to make a request for a review where there are no close family members of the deceased.

Clause 9 stand part.

That schedule 3 be the Third schedule to the Bill.

Clause 10 stand part.

Amendment 84, in clause 11, page 9, line 35, at end insert—

‘(3A) A request for a review may be re-submitted to accord with the form or manner required by the Commissioner for Investigations.’

Clauses 11 and 12 stand part.

Amendment 111, in clause 13, page 11, line 10, at end insert—

‘(3A) The Commissioner for Investigations must ensure that each review—

(a) has access to all information, documents and other material held by Government Agencies that may be reasonably required for the exercise of the review,

(b) establishes whether any forensic opportunities exist to identify those responsible for a potential Troubles-related offence,

(c) identifies and engages any potential witnesses, members of the security forces or other persons who may be able to assist in identifying who is responsible for the Troubles-related offence,

(d) is conducted with integrity and objectivity, conforming to nationally recognised standards,

(e) does not overlook any investigative opportunities, and

(f) identifies and shares investigative and organisational best practice.’

This amendment would ensure that any review conducted by the ICRIR is carried out in line with the standards for Operation Kenova, the investigation into activities linked to an alleged British Army agent, known as Stakeknife.

Amendment 112, page 11, line 15, at end insert—

‘(4A) When exercising the powers conferred by subsection (4), the Commissioner for Investigations must ensure that each review is carried out in a timely manner.’

See explanatory statement for Amendment 111.

Clauses 13 and 14 stand part.

Amendment 95, in schedule 4, page 62, line 39, leave out “£1,000” and insert “£5,000”.

This amendment would increase the penalty for failure to comply with a notice under section 14 requiring the supply of information to the Commissioner for Investigations.

That schedule 4 be the Fourth schedule to the Bill.

Clauses 15 to 17 stand part.

Amendment 96, in clause 18, page 16, line 10, leave out “A to C” and insert “A to D”.

This is a paving amendment for Amendment 98.

Amendment 97, page 16, line 30, at end insert—

‘(6) If Condition C is not met because P’s account is found by the panel to be not true to the best of P’s knowledge and belief, the Chief Commissioner must direct the Commissioner for Investigations to submit a prosecution file to the Public Prosecution Service for consideration and direction.’

This amendment is intended to reduce the risk of claimants deliberately misleading the panel.

Amendment 98, page 16, line 30, at end insert—

‘(6A) Condition D: P has not fled the jurisdiction of any court in the United Kingdom [or Ireland] after being arrested or charged or being the subject of a warrant issued in connection with any Troubles-related offence.’

This amendment is intended to prevent the grant of immunity to any person subject to active proceedings who has moved abroad to escape prosecution.

Amendment 99, page 16, line 31, leave out “A to C” and insert “A to D”.

This amendment is consequential on Amendment 98.

Amendment 85, page 16, line 37, after “offences” insert “excluding rape and other serious sexual offences”.

This amendment would exclude rape and other serious sexual offences from immunity from prosecution.

Amendment 100, page 16, line 38, leave out subsections (9) to (12).

This probing amendment is one of a series removing general immunity from the Bill.

Amendment 115, page 17, line 7, at end insert—

‘(12A) But certain offences of sexual violence listed in Schedule (Exempt offences) must not be treated as within the scope of immunity from prosecution.’

This amendment is linked to NS1.

Amendment 101, page 17, leave out lines 13 and 14.

This probing amendment is one of a series removing general immunity from the Bill.

Amendment 102, page 17, leave out lines 21 and 22.

This probing amendment is one of a series removing general immunity from the Bill.

Amendment 119, page 17, line 24, at end insert—

‘(16A) Nothing in this Act confers any immunity from prosecution (after immunity has been granted to P) if P commits an offence under section 1 (encouragement of terrorism) of the Terrorism Act 2006 or section (Offence of glorifying terrorism: Northern Ireland) of this Act.’

Clauses 18 and 19 stand part.

Amendment 86, in clause 20, page 19, line 1, leave out subsection (4).

This amendment is intended to remove the possibility of immunity being granted solely on the basis of a perpetrator’s claims made with no corroboration.

Amendment 105, page 19, leave out lines 23 and 24.

This probing amendment is one a series removing general immunity from the Bill.

Amendment 106, page 19, leave out lines 26 and 27.

This probing amendment is one a series removing general immunity from the Bill.

Clause 20 stand part.

Amendment 87, in clause 21, page 19, line 41, at end insert—

‘(2A) The same panel membership must hear the whole of an immunity request.’

Amendment 88, page 20, line 3, at end insert—

‘(3A) Where a panel has been reconstituted in accordance with subsection (3), the reconstituted panel must hear the whole immunity request afresh.’

Clauses 21 and 22 stand part.

Amendment 89, in clause 23, page 21, line 6, leave out “reasonable”.

Amendment 90, page 21, line 16, leave out paragraphs (4) and (5).

Clauses 23 to 25 stand part.

That schedule 5 be the Fifth schedule to the Bill.

That schedule 6 be the Sixth schedule to the Bill.

Clauses 26 and 27 stand part.

That schedule 7 be the Seventh schedule to the Bill.

Clauses 28 to 32 stand part.

New schedule 1—Exempt Offences—

‘1 The following offences are not to be treated as within the scope of immunity from prosecution (see section 18 (12A)).

2 An offence under any provision of the Sexual Offences Act 1956.

3 An offence under section 1 of the Indecency with Children Act 1960 (indecent conduct towards child under 14).

4 An offence under section 54 of the Criminal Law Act 1977 (inciting child under 16 to commit incest).

5 An offence under section 1 of the Protection of Children Act 1978 (indecent photographs of children).

6 An offence under section 160 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (possession of indecent photograph of a child).

7 An offence under any provision of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

8 An offence under section 63 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (possession of extreme pornographic images).

9 An offence under section 62 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 (possession of prohibited images of children).

10 An offence under section 33 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015 (disclosing private sexual photographs and films with intent to cause distress).

11 An offence under section 2 of the Modern Slavery Act 2015 (human trafficking) committed with a view to exploitation that consists of or includes behaviour within section 3(3) of that Act (sexual exploitation).

12 An offence at common law of outraging public decency.

13 A reference in paragraphs 2 to 14 to an offence (“offence A”) includes—

(a) a reference to an attempt to commit offence A,

(b) a reference to a conspiracy to commit offence A,

(c) a reference to incitement to commit offence A,

(d) a reference to an offence under Part 2 of the Serious Crime Act 2007 in relation to which offence A is the offence (or one of the offences) which the person intended or believed would be committed, and

(e) a reference to aiding and abetting, counselling or procuring the commission of offence A.’

This new schedule would exclude sexual offences from being granted immunity, and is linked to Amendment 115.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Conor Burns)]

It is a humbling experience to come before the Committee to deal with the first of the two days in Committee of the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill.

On Monday evening, I attended an event at Queen’s University Belfast hosted by the vice-chancellor Professor Ian Greer, where we heard video messages from President Clinton, Sir Tony Blair and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and we heard speeches from me and the former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern. We gathered to pay tribute to my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Trimble, to thank him for his career of service in Northern Ireland and to thank his wife Daphne for her support of him over all those years. In my remarks, I said that we thanked him for his courage to compromise, his conviction to lead and his audacity to dream. I reflected on how much Northern Ireland has changed over the years since the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, of which he was such a key part.

The measure before the Committee is an attempt to try to continue the process of moving Northern Ireland on. I begin by genuinely and humbly saying that these measures are difficult, are a compromise and are contested. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who has had the courage to grapple with this issue when many others in the years since the Belfast/Good Friday agreement simply decided that it was too difficult.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gavin Robinson]

On a point of order, Dame Rosie. For the sake of clarity and for the benefit of all Members, may I ask you to confirm that there will be a Report stage? I have listened to these exchanges, but given the timescale that we have for the Bill’s remaining stages on Monday—given that the second day of the Committee stage will end an hour before the moment of interruption—and given the likelihood of many Divisions, I expect that there will not even be time for a substantive Third Reading, let alone a Report stage.

Just in case people fall into the view that there will be enough time for a Report stage and the opportunity to table further amendments, I must express my view that that will not be the case on Monday. But I ask you, Dame Rosie, for clarification.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Report stage is currently scheduled for Monday. As I understand it, amendments would need to be tabled at the close of Committee stage on Monday, as manuscript amendments. I hope that is helpful.

[Gavin Robinson]

Further to that point of order, Dame Rosie. In principle there can be a Report stage, but in practice, if the Committee stage runs until an hour before the end of proceedings and there are Divisions—four, potentially—there will be no time whatever for a Report stage or a Third Reading. We cannot predict what will happen with Divisions, but I am asking for confirmation that a set of circumstances could arise whereby no effective Report stage would occur.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Obviously it is difficult to predict what would happen on the day. In such circumstances, Members can all agree that they wish to allow enough time for Report stage by means of shorter speeches or fewer votes. On the other hand, I understand that it is also possible for the business managers and the Government to table a Business of the House motion that could perhaps give specific protected time to a Report stage, but that would be a decision for the Government. Again, I hope that that is helpful.

[Simon Hoare]

Further to that point of order, Dame Rosie.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

I am slightly anxious that we will use the whole debate for points of order, but I will take this one from the hon. Gentleman.

[Simon Hoare]

It was my understanding, Dame Rosie, that the usual channels could alter the programme motion, but could you also confirm that when we reached the stage of what we normally describe as ping-pong, were such an amendment to be passed in the other place, we would debate it here in the context of the Government’s response to the amendment? That would also afford an opportunity for this place to accept an amendment from their lordships that the Government might still be trying to resist, although I doubt that they would. Is that not still open to us as Members of the House of Commons?

[The First Deputy Chairman]

This is something that I suggest would lead to ping-pong, as the hon. Gentleman calls it, but, again, the scheduling is not a matter for the Chair; it is a matter for the business managers and the Government.

I have a feeling that the Minister has heard all the points that have been made, and I think we should probably return to the debate.

[Conor Burns]

I am conscious that I have taken a significant number of interventions so far this afternoon, so, if I may, I will make some progress and talk briefly about the actual content of the Bill—

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Rosie Winterton Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 24th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Before I call the shadow Secretary of State, let me say that I am sure that colleagues will be aware that there are many people who wish to speak in the debate on this extremely important Bill. In order to avoid a time limit, I encourage Back-Bench colleagues to keep their remarks to about 10 minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP)]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call Jim Shannon.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gavin Robinson]

It is important for the House to recognise that sometimes politicians talk about how powerfully these things affect us, but it is fair to say that from my hon. Friend’s contributions throughout the years he has brought a great deal of personal empathy and emotion to these issues. I make that intervention, and I will talk perhaps longer than you would normally permit in an intervention, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I will look for a nod from my hon. Friend whenever the time is appropriate—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. If the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) would like me to come back to him after the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna), I am happy to do that if at any point that is what he feels.

Public Prosecution Service and Legacy in Northern Ireland

Rosie Winterton Excerpts

Thursday 13th January 2022 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Rebecca Harris.)

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Before I call the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), I wish to make a short statement.

I am exercising the discretion given to the Chair in respect of the resolution on matters of sub judice to extend the waiver granted for proceedings in July to allow limited reference to active legal proceedings and open inquests in relation to the historic troubles-related deaths. As before, reference to those cases should be limited to the context and to the events that led to the cases, but Members should not refer to the detail of cases or to the names of those involved in them. All Members should, however, be mindful of the matters that may be the subject of future legal proceedings and should exercise caution in making reference to individual cases.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Francois]

You have already broken multiple deadlines —we don’t believe you!

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. That is unacceptable. Minister, there are five seconds left.

[Conor Burns]

My right hon. Friend is obviously and rightly angry—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I am sorry—

[Conor Burns]

I hope we will mollify him when we bring forward the Bill.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Rosie Winterton Excerpts

Report stage & 3rd reading
Tuesday 26th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Before I call the next speaker, I should just say that this debate must finish at 2.18 pm. We then go on to Third Reading. Obviously, the Front Benchers and Ministers will want some time to wind up, so this part of the debate is limited, depending on how many people wish to speak. I ask Members to bear that in mind.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I commend the debate and the discussion about the First Minister’s titles and many of the other issues raised by the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry). I am particularly sympathetic about the commencement date. However, I do not believe that this is the right place or the right Bill for many of the other amendments. Even more importantly, they risk the House losing focus on the important issue at hand: the need to implement the clauses in the Bill that assert the continuation of the Executive, with Ministers in caretaker roles, should a First or Deputy First Minister exit power sharing. A number of witnesses in Committee raised the importance of those clauses.

The sustainability clauses were a key part of last year’s New Decade, New Approach agreement and they have not yet been implemented. On Second Reading, in July, my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) highlighted the fact that the Government were already looking tardy. The sustainability clauses were agreed in order to avoid what happened in 2017, which led to three years of no Government in Northern Ireland. Even when the Bill progresses to the other place, I fear that there will be timetabling delays. As we heard, the Bill also has a two-month commencement date, so it will not be implemented for several months.

That is important because, should a First or Deputy First Minister leave office, only two weeks are provided to fill the slots. There is then a duty on the Secretary of State to call an election, but history shows that the election is often not called immediately and Northern Ireland is left ungoverned. The Bill will stop the political parties from thinking that there is an emergency escape hatch when things become politically difficult and will provide for up to 24 weeks to resolve things.

Currently, a number of issues could tempt political parties to use that escape hatch: the protocol, the cultural package, the UK Government’s putative changes to the Human Rights Act 1998, and the legacy proposals. A cocktail of issues are being injected, sometimes recklessly, into the fragile ecosystem of Northern Ireland. In that context, there is a clear and present danger of one Northern Ireland party or more diving for the emergency escape hatch. The Bill will slam shut that cop-out option.

The first clauses of the Bill are designed to put the ball back in the court of any party that seeks to exit the Executive and to shine the spotlight on each political party in Northern Ireland to restore government. Otherwise, the ball comes back into the UK Government’s court. The vast majority of NI citizens want continued devolved government. Yes, there are arguments for change and reforms at the right time, such as new clause 3, but the big issue today is why the Bill has not yet been implemented. More importantly, this House must be clear that the Bill needs to be implemented now.

The practical measures that will allow continued government—now 18 months late—will ensure that Northern Ireland business and citizens get the stability they crave. I therefore urge the Government to get the Bill to the Lords quickly, to remove the two-month commencement date and to ensure that they get behind keeping the pressure on all parties to maintain devolved government and maintaining the Good Friday agreement in all its parts.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I remind hon. Members to stand if they want to catch my eye. I call the shadow Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Davies-Jones]

The House was promised the commissioning of an Irish language Act by the end of October 2021. That is where we are now, and it is nowhere to be seen. The Secretary of State’s refusal to give a date is a disgrace, and a betrayal of the people of Northern Ireland.

This legislation has simply come too late to address the current political instability in Northern Ireland. Given the political crisis there, and the ongoing warnings about the collapse of the Executive, Labour pushed for amendments to ensure that it was implemented without delay. As it stands, even if it were passed before Christmas there would still be a months-long commencement clause, leaving it highly unlikely to be in force to prevent instability in the coming months. We would like to hear a firm commitment from the Secretary of State to fast-tracking it through the House of Lords, and a clear timetable for it being enacted. We cannot wait months when we may have weeks. Will the Secretary of State address that? If so, we will work with him to ensure that the Bill is on the statute book within weeks.

The instability that the Bill in part attempts to address has not emerged out of thin air, and I fear that the delay in bringing it forward is symptomatic of the Government’s approach to Northern Ireland. Too often over the past decade, Northern Ireland has been an afterthought here. As the consequences of decisions taken by Ministers have played out in Northern Ireland, the Government have frequently behaved as though they had found themselves at the scene of an accident entirely beyond their control. Too often, Northern Ireland has been overlooked and the work to deliver on the promise of peace has been allowed to stall.

It would be foolish to assume that the provisions of the Bill alone can guarantee stability; they cannot. To do that, Ministers must address the effects of their own actions, which have shaken faith in Northern Ireland. Progress has stalled and instability has grown. The Belfast/Good Friday agreement has been treated as a crisis management tool, rather than as the vehicle through which lives and communities can be transformed.

Although Labour supports the Bill, we believe that there are several missed opportunities for the Government to refocus on delivering on the promise of peace, which they have allowed to stall. A Bill of Rights, integrated education and housing, women’s rights and giving communities a real say in decision making were the essence of the Good Friday agreement and the shared future that it imagined, but progress on them has been virtually non-existent over the past decade. We do not believe that the instability we see can be separated from the failure to deliver on such commitments. Above all, the way to guarantee stability is to demonstrate that commitments made will be honoured, and that Westminster is still prepared to step up and honour our side of the bargain.

I reiterate our support for the limited measures in the Bill and ask the Secretary of State to speed up the timetable as a matter of urgency, but I wish to make it clear that this is only a start: there is much, much more work to be done.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the Scottish National party spokesperson, Richard Thomson.

--- Later in debate ---

[Claire Hanna]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. If Members are referring to content, they should quote me accurately. I said that the current designation structures, as operated, were locking in sectarianism. Is it appropriate for Members to misquote other Members?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Could the hon. Lady repeat that point of order? I could not hear it properly.

[Claire Hanna]

Is it in order, Madam Deputy Speaker, for Members to misquote other Members? I said in my speech that the current designation mechanisms, as operated, were locking in sectarianism. The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) has accused me of attempting to lock in sectarianism.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Lady for that point of order. It is important that Members do not misquote other Members; that is very important indeed. The hon. Lady has made her point. I am sure that if the hon. Gentleman feels that he has misinterpreted her words, he will respond, or he may feel that the clarification that she has just given has put what she said on the record.

[Ian Paisley]

Of course, this is not the first time that Social Democratic and Labour party Members have opposed the Belfast agreement and called for changes when it suits them. The previous Member for Foyle talked about the “ugly scaffolding” that surrounded the Belfast agreement—

--- Later in debate ---

[Colum Eastwood]

I would love to—if I can remember the hon. Member’s point. I thank him for giving way. On his point about the former Member for Foyle, of course, he negotiated the Good Friday agreement when the hon. Gentleman and his party were standing outside with placards, shouting and cheering. By the way, they were shouted down by the people of Ireland and the people of Northern Ireland, who voted massively in favour of the Good Friday agreement. Of course, the hon. Gentleman’s party has been implementing the Good Friday agreement ever since it did the thing at St Andrews. You talked about the petition of concern—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I did not talk about anything. Has the hon. Gentleman finished?

[Colum Eastwood]

indicated assent.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Rosie Winterton Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 22nd June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

I join the Secretary of State in congratulating the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) on his appointment as leader of the DUP and I also look forward to working with him. I thank the Secretary of State for setting out the measures in the Bill and for the regular updates he and the Minister have provided to me and my office over the past few weeks.

The instability in recent months has been unsettling for all of us who cherish the Good Friday agreement and who believe that its institutions and the principles that underpin it represent the best way forward for Northern Ireland, but, as ever, that instability has been most keenly felt by the people of Northern Ireland. They need a stable, functioning Executive to meet the enormous health and economic challenges facing Northern Ireland—a third of the entire population languishing on health waiting lists; nearly 300 children without a post-primary place for next year’s term; and, of course, recovery from covid. For all political leaders in Northern Ireland, that must be the priority in the coming days and weeks. It is partly for that reason that the Labour party supports the Bill before the House today.

We welcome attempts to safeguard power sharing and improve the sustainability of the Executive and the Assembly. Although we will suggest amendments to tighten up provisions in the Bill, the lessons from the past should offer a clear warning to all of us. Institutions are much easier to collapse than they are to get back up and running. Recent events could scarcely have provided a clearer example of why the provisions contained in the Bill are necessary.

Precisely because we support the provisions in the Bill, which were agreed through New Decade, New Approach more than 18 months ago by the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), I want to make clear the mistake I believe the Secretary of State has made in leaving it until now for this crucial piece of legislation to be considered. It is simply not credible that this was the first moment that parliamentary time allowed for the Bill to be considered, and it is unclear why we are debating these measures only now, in the midst of political turmoil in Northern Ireland.

The instability we have seen in recent months, which the Bill in part attempts to address, has not emerged out of thin air. I fear the delay in bringing forward the Bill is symptomatic of the Government’s approach to Northern Ireland.

Too often over the past decade, Northern Ireland has been an afterthought here. As the consequences of decisions taken by Ministers have played out in Northern Ireland, the Government have frequently behaved as though they have found themselves at the scene of an accident entirely beyond their control. Too often, Northern Ireland has been overlooked and the work to deliver on the promise of peace allowed to stall.

Nowhere is that more striking than in the Prime Minister’s actions. He was repeatedly warned of the consequences for the fragile peace process of his Brexit deal and he chose to ignore those warnings. There is a direct line from his dishonesty over the deal to the instability we see in the institutions today.

It would be foolish to assume that the provisions of the Bill alone can guarantee stability. They cannot. To do that, Ministers must address the effects of their own actions, which have shaken faith in Northern Ireland. Progress has stalled and instability has grown. The Belfast/Good Friday agreement has been treated as a crisis management tool rather than as the vehicle through which lives and communities can be transformed.

Although Labour supports the Bill, we believe there are several missed opportunities for the Government to refocus on delivering on the promise of peace, which they have allowed to stall. We will seek to bring amendments to push for the full implementation of the Government’s commitments under the New Decade, New Approach agreement, which, like the Bill, have been delayed for too long.



The same principle is true of the undelivered promises of the Good Friday agreement on a Bill of Rights, integrated education and housing, women’s rights and giving communities a real say in decision making. They were the essence of the Good Friday agreement and the shared future that it imagined, but progress on them has been virtually non-existent over the past decade. We do not believe that the instability that we see can be separated from the failure to deliver on such commitments. Above all, the way to guarantee stability is to demonstrate that commitments made will be honoured and that Westminster is still prepared to step up and honour our side of the bargain.

We will further seek to tighten up the provisions on the caretaker institutions to prevent misuse and promote good governance. With that in mind, we have concerns about what might be described as some of the constructive ambiguities in the Bill and some of the unintended consequences that may follow. Our concerns fall into two categories: those relating to a caretaker Executive and those relating to the vetoes available within the Executive.

First, on the provisions allowing for a caretaker Administration following an Assembly election or the resignation of the First Minister or Deputy First Minister, the scope of statutory powers was recently significantly expanded. Although the Government talk about caretaker Ministers being able to operate only “within well-defined limits”, those limits are in no way outlined. That leaves open a broad statutory remit and does not provide the necessary safety catch to prevent caretaker Ministers from exercising powers not envisaged in the Bill. I would be grateful if the Minister responded to that point or if we could address it in Committee.

Secondly, the Bill deals with the petition of concern and its use and misuse. We absolutely support this limited reform, which will return the mechanism to its original intention, but the Bill is silent on the other effective vetoes that have been used to block agenda items from reaching the Executive or to prevent discussion on cross-community issues of concern. If the petition of concern reform was intended to prevent it from being misused by a single party to block progress, it would be a mistake to allow other vetoes to persist that allow for much the same outcome.

Finally, we hope to see some movement from the Government on dual mandates to allow for greater flexibility, potentially on a short-term basis. I reiterate our support for the limited measures in the Bill, but I make it clear that this is only a start. There is much, much more work to do.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

We now go to the Chair of the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP)]

I thank the right hon. Member for giving way, and it is good to highlight that. Unfortunately, the media and many political pundits keep peddling this line, and very little has been done in relation to giving confidence to the Unionist community. In fact, many within the Unionist community believe that devolution is dead. Those who have driven around Northern Ireland will have seen the many banners hanging around lampposts telling us that devolution is dead and the Belfast agreement is null and void. The messages that have come forward from this Government in the last year and a half have not given any confidence to the Unionist community. I am glad to hear the right hon. Member making mention of the issue of no Irish language Act being included in NDNA.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

That was a long intervention.

[Julian Smith]

Well, I confirm that it is not there.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Rosie Winterton Excerpts

Monday 21st September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael). I shall speak to clauses 40 to 45. Let us be clear from the start: the Bill protects and strengthens the United Kingdom, and it safeguards peace in Northern Ireland. There is nothing in it that undermines the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, nor is there any possibility of a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland under any circumstances. From the very outset, the United Kingdom has acted in good faith, and it did so when it signed the withdrawal agreement and the Northern Ireland protocol. Crucially, from the outset, the UK’s understanding of the provisions in the agreement and the protocol were abundantly clear to the EU and all those at the negotiating table. It is clear to the extent that some matters need clarification that we put faith—honest faith—in the Joint Committee reaching reasonable interpretations, being fully aware of our understanding of the issues that needed to be ironed out.

It was not just our understanding of the agreement and protocol on which we relied. The Northern Ireland protocol is clear about some key aspects. Article 1, as well as affirming that nothing in the protocol should interfere with the provisions of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, says:

“This Protocol respects the essential state functions and territorial integrity of the United Kingdom.”

Article 4 provides:

“Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom.”

Article 6 goes on to say:

“Nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from ensuring unfettered market access for goods moving from Northern Ireland to other parts of the United Kingdom's internal market.”

We now find, however, that the EU is suggesting interpretations of the protocol that were never envisaged, notwithstanding the fact that the provisions are clearly set out in the protocol itself, as I have read out. There have been clear suggestions from the EU that its interpretation of the protocol would lead to the creation of a barrier within the United Kingdom, thus seriously compromising our political and economic integrity. Such action by the European Union threatens the territorial integrity of the UK. It threatens to take Northern Ireland out of the UK customs territory, and it threatens our internal market.

That is unacceptable, and no Government can sit back and allow an international organisation to do that to the very fabric of our country. The Bill is therefore a safeguard that ensures that the UK is not divided and there is no external interference in the running of our country today or in the decades to come. The Bill ensures that we leave the EU as a sovereign independent country, as the people of the UK voted to do.

It is to be hoped that an agreement can be reached with the EU. Indeed, Donald Tusk originally offered a Canada-style agreement, but to the extent that there is a material breach of good faith by the EU, we have the safety of the Bill, which not only provides for the preservation of our Union but ensures that measures are not followed through without first having obtained the consent of the House.

Finally, let us remember that all Members on these Government Benches stood as candidates at the last general election not only as Conservatives, but as Conservative and Unionist candidates. Every single Member on these Government Benches sits here as a Conservative and Unionist Member of Parliament. To now not agree the passing of this Bill would make a complete mockery of the very platform upon which we stood to get elected to Parliament.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I thank the last few speakers, who have stuck brilliantly to the shorter time limit, but I point out that there are still many colleagues who want to get in. If we can stick to the five minutes, that would be very considerate of others who have sat here for a long time wanting to speak.

[Sammy Wilson]

I assume that your remarks were addressed to me, Chair, and I will do my best to respond positively. It is a great joy to follow the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara), who has been a great friend of Northern Ireland and has taken a principled stand during the previous debates on the Brexit negotiations. He is highly regarded in Northern Ireland for his principled stand, his pro-Unionist views and his willingness to make sacrifices for those pro-Unionist views, too.

We will be supporting the Bill this evening and these particular clauses, but I have to say we have some reservations about the extent and the distance that the Government have gone to try to reverse the damage done by the withdrawal agreement and, in particular, the Northern Ireland protocol. I am pleased that the Government now recognise that, either inadvertently or deliberately, damage is being done to not just Northern Ireland, but the United Kingdom as a whole as a result of the withdrawal agreement, and they are trying to reverse it.

Two arguments have been advanced as to why people should oppose the Bill. The first—it has been an obsession in the House this evening, and outside the House over the past number of days—is that it goes against the Good Friday agreement. Indeed, if one looks at the amendments tabled by the nationalist Social Democratic and Labour party and the nationalist Alliance party, it is clear that their only concern is the Good Friday agreement, or their interpretation of the Good Friday agreement. All the amendments that my party have tabled address not the alleged ineffectiveness of the protocol in dealing with the Good Friday agreement, but the real problems that will be caused for Unionists, nationalists, the young, the old, businesses and workers in Northern Ireland by the protocol going through in the form that the EU wishes and by it being imposed in the way the EU wishes.

The protocol will have an effect by putting up costs—that is not my assessment, but the Government’s—reducing opportunities and variety for consumers, impacting on investment and impacting on the trade we do with our biggest market in GB. That is the effect. I will not go through all our amendments, because my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) went through them very succinctly and effectively when he was speaking. All our amendments are designed to undo that economic damage.

Let me just address the issue of the Good Friday agreement. It is significant that when pressed about how the Good Friday agreement is damaged, all we can get from those who make that claim is, “Well, it may not actually go against what is written in the Good Friday agreement, but it goes against the spirit of it”, or to use the words of the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna), “It goes against the implications”—not the wording, and she admitted that—“of the Good Friday agreement”. She could not find a clause in the Good Friday agreement that was breached by the legislation. Instead, it was the intention and the implication of it.



The truth of the matter is, of course, that the Good Friday agreement is offended by the withdrawal agreement, because the withdrawal agreement affects Northern Ireland politically. Laws will now be made in Brussels rather than in Westminster. Northern Ireland will be subject to rule by the EU; we will be part of its single market rules rather than part of the UK single market.

Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords]

Rosie Winterton Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Tuesday 5th November 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Let me join the Secretary of State in applauding the fact that the House has seen fit to move the Bill so swiftly through the House today. I want to place on record our thanks to my colleague Lord Hain and Lord Duncan, the Minister involved, because they were instrumental in ensuring that this House had the opportunity to move things forward.

I want to say to those with us today who are victims, representing many other victims, that this Bill would have been necessary had there only been one victim of this kind of abuse. We know that many thousands suffered—thousands more than will come under the ambit of the scheme, because many of them have already died, and we cannot offer anything by way of recognition or compensation to those people. But today we are saying to those who are with us that we recognise what took place, and it is a matter of real and profound shame to every one of us in this country. It is also a matter of anger, and we should use that anger to ensure that we are determined to do everything we can to insist that this cannot be the pattern for the future. We know that sexual abuse will take place in Northern Ireland and in the whole of the United Kingdom. This should impel us to do everything we can to protect our young people and those who are victims, because we have to learn the lessons of the past.

That is the triumph for those who have been through this campaign. They have campaigned for themselves and those they represent, but they have also campaigned on a much wider basis—they have campaigned for decency and justice for people across this land of ours. The real emotion that was rightly expressed by the Secretary of State, by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) and by others is not just about empathy. It is because we profoundly believe in the need to ensure that there is justice for those who have campaigned and those they campaigned for and, in the end, to set a different moral tone around this issue for the future. This is a good Bill, and I thank all our colleagues for making it possible to pass it today.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

The Secretary of State referred to the fact that the Bill went through Committee very quickly; I do not think I have ever chaired such a quick Committee. That indicates the unity in the House around this Bill, and I know that if it were not for the special circumstances we are in, many more Members would have wanted to be here to show their support.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Ordered,

That, at this day’s sitting, the Speaker shall not adjourn the House until he has reported the Royal Assent to any Act agreed upon by both Houses.—(Maggie Throup.)

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Rosie Winterton Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 30th October 2019 Commons Chamber

Second Reading

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Before I invite the Secretary of State to move the Second Reading, I must announce the Speaker’s decision on certification for the purposes of Standing Order No. 83J (Certification of bills etc. as relating exclusively to England or England and Wales and being within devolved legislative competence). On the basis of material put before the Speaker, the Speaker certified that in his opinion the Bill does not meet the criteria required for certification under that Standing Order.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

I am extremely grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way again. I had a stab at making this point earlier today during Northern Ireland questions, and I wonder whether he will indulge me just one more time.

I assume that the part of the budget that is covered by schedule 1, relating to the Department for Communities, covers welfare mitigation payments in Northern Ireland up until March 2020. In the September 2019 joint report of the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs and the Select Committee on Work and Pensions, entitled “Welfare policy in Northern Ireland”, the Committees point out that ending the mitigation payments after March 2020 could make some 35,000 households in Northern Ireland worse off by hundreds of pounds a month. Is the Secretary of State aware of that?

The Department for Communities cannot extend these payments because, in the absence of the Assembly, that requires ministerial action. This is urgent because the Department is saying that it will need to start advising claimants by this autumn of significant cuts to their welfare payments next year, unless the Government act.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order.

[Steve McCabe]

May I have just one second more? I am very grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am sure the Secretary of State does not want an unintended consequence in Northern Ireland, so will he look at this issue and act now?

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 7

Rosie Winterton Excerpts

Monday 30th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. Quite a few colleagues want to get in. There is not enormous pressure on time, but if colleagues stick to about eight minutes, we will be able to get everyone in comfortably.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Where are they, Madam Deputy Speaker? Why is the House empty? Where are they? Where is the choir of people who are normally so interested in Northern Ireland and who wish to introduce the most damaging legislation in the history of Northern Ireland? Where are they today? They are hardly at the Tory party conference. They tell us that they want the House back and sitting because they need to hold the Government to account. Where are they? Where are their probing questions about the protection of vulnerable lives? They are quick to be here when they want to destroy the unborn life, but they are absent today, when we want to ask questions and scrutinise the Government on the protection of innocent victims in institutional care in Northern Ireland. It is a disgrace that they are not here. Their absence speaks thousands of words to the people of Northern Ireland about how much they really care. Are they even really interested in abortion rights in Northern Ireland and the rights of woman in Northern Ireland? No, they are interested in one thing: pursuing their own agenda. They use this House and abuse this House to get those things done.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware that there has been a lot of discussion about the use of language and the tone that we are setting. I do hope that he will bear that in mind.

[Ian Paisley]

I will bear it in mind, Madam Deputy Speaker—I will take your ruling—but I think people are right to be angry. People are right to be angry on behalf of the unborn and on behalf of the innocent victims of institutional abuse, whose rights are brushed under the carpet every moment. When someone dares to speak up for them, they are told that they have to calm things down—“Don’t say things about the victims. Don’t upset people who have challenged the lives of innocent victims or the lives of the unborn.” Oh no, we cannot have anything rough said; it might upset their sensitivities. It might be awful for them. No, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is about time that people did speak up for the voiceless and for the abused—for those who see this place, which should be a champion of their rights, being silenced on their rights, because that is effectively what has happened.

I reiterate my challenge to the Secretary of State. He really needs to do more when it comes to the issues that have been brought to the attention of the House. Last week, on 26 September, 815 doctors, nurses, midwives and other health and social care workers felt so deeply concerned about what this House had done in relation to the people of Northern Ireland that they decided to write publicly about that abuse. They said:

“The concept of taking human life at any stage is inimical to us, and the concept of taking a human life in the womb especially so.”

They went on to make demands of the Government here, saying:

“Healthcare in Northern Ireland is in such a parlous state, due to chronic underfunding, understaffing, and the lack of a sitting Government. Imposing abortion on our healthcare system risks destabilising our GP service, many of whom are contemplating retiring… It risks burdening our hospitals with unnecessary procedures, extra complications, divisions within departments and lengthening of waiting lists—all of which will likely have a negative effect on the population of Northern Ireland who rely on healthcare services from medical problems.”

That is the problem that is being impacted on Northern Ireland. That is the problem that the Secretary of State needs to address. If he really wants the Assembly back to deal with this issue before 20 October, I reiterate my call to him: call a meeting tomorrow morning of the Northern Ireland Assembly and see how many Members turn up. He will find that the only party that runs away will be Sinn Féin. The Secretary of State has that power in the Belfast agreement—I am not asking him to do anything outwith his powers. There are two people who can call a meeting of the Assembly, and he is one of them. I urge him to do that.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. There is a very specific subject of discussion here, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be returning to as quickly as possible—by which I mean now.

[Ian Paisley]

I understand that we are speaking about the Northern Ireland Executive formation and the reports flowing from that. The Secretary of State introduced his comments tonight by referring to the lack of an Assembly. The Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee emphasised that issue as well. I am trying to get the Assembly back, and I am outlining the way in which the Secretary of State could take active measures this evening by phoning the 90 Members of the Assembly and getting them back in the Assembly tomorrow morning. That could bring about the changes that the Secretary of State wants to see—that I want to see and that people in this place want to see—but I fear that that call will land on deaf ears. I hope that he decides to do that, and I hope that he takes up that chance.

I welcome what the Secretary of State said in his remarks. I believe that he is passionate and that he does care about the victims of institutional abuse. Indeed, I know, following on from the meetings that he had with them in August, that many of them meet regularly with Government Members, and they reported back to us the enthusiasm and the genuine concern that he has. I happen to think that it is important that we put that on the record, but it is also right and proper that he is pushed on a few areas. I ask him to give us a time, to give us a specific date and to tell us when this will happen. He should not let this slip any further. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) made the point in her excellent speech that we cannot allow this slippage to continue. These people are dying. These victims need immediate help and there is nothing to stop the Secretary of State from providing that.

I wish to leave some very specific questions with the Secretary of State: who is ultimately going to pay the compensation? The hon. Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield) made the crucial point that this abuse was carried out vastly during a period of direct rule. Therefore, the responsibility and the onus must fall on this place to come up with the compensation. The Northern Ireland budget could not cope with—probably—the extent of that payment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. There is pressure on time, and I want the Secretary of State to be able to speak for a couple of minutes towards the end of the debate because certain points have been raised. May I say once again, though, that the use of inflammatory language is absolutely unacceptable? We have had a lot of discussion about this over the past few days, so I urge Members to be very careful about the language they use. I hope that the remaining speakers will stick to that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

This issue is a difficult one to speak about. It is heartbreaking when we hear of the scale of abuse and the ramifications of that abuse for entire families throughout the Province. However, it is clear that, no matter how difficult it is, we must do more than just speak; we must act. That has been said unanimously in this House today, and the Secretary of State and the Government have to respond accordingly. One constituent put it to me like this:

“You may already be aware of this high-profile issue, which has come to symbolise the pain afflicted onto some of the most vulnerable people in Northern Ireland in the absence of government.”

The Secretary of State referred to two places—Kincora and Nazareth House. I would add De La Salle in Kircubbin, where physical and sexual abuse took place of young boys in that establishment. Some of the people who have come to speak to us in the groups and have come to my office to meet me have also addressed the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. We have heard at length their deputations and submissions to that as well.

This is yet another group of people who have been affected by the intransigence of Sinn Féin and its refusal to do its job and take its place—another group of people who have been further traumatised by the stalemate that has taken place. Can I say very respectfully to the Secretary of State that he cannot ignore the fact that Sinn Féin is the obstacle in this process? This is partly why I have been calling for direct rule in this place: it is time to consider that honestly.

The Bill was hijacked by hon. Members—with respect, again—on the Opposition Benches to introduce legislation that was not discussed, vetted or done by the proper process. Vulnerable groups like this have no showing in the priorities of the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), but it is one of my priorities, and that is why I am speaking on this issue today. I speak for the unborn: those who are alive in the womb. One hundred thousand people live today because of the current abortion legislation we have in Northern Ireland, yet that would change—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. Can I just bring the hon. Gentleman back to the issue of historical abuse? I am sure he is returning to it now.

[Jim Shannon]

I think it is important that we have that issue on record, as that has been abuse as well.

By way of quick summary, the independent inquiry by Sir Anthony Hart that was commissioned by the Northern Ireland Executive in 2013 reported on a series of recommendations in January 2017 that sought to deliver justice to victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse. The delivery of the findings of that inquiry coincided with the collapse of the Assembly and Executive. In the two and a half years since that point, victims and survivors have been left without any of the redress and justice that was promised to them. That is really obvious to every one of us who is aware of the situation. There was a crystal clear need to introduce the legislation required to establish a redress board and commissioner to advocate on behalf of victims and survivors. As my constituent said to me:

“It has not been easy and it has retraumatised many victims”—

including himself—

“some of whom have been extraordinarily brave in sharing their story in the media with the public to try and convince those in power to act.”

What we are seeking today is simple. I thank the Secretary of State for what he has done so far, and his team as well. We may have been a bit harsh with him in some of the things we have said today, but he should not take it personally. He has done exceptional work. However, we now need to see the delivery of what he has stated, and then everyone on these Benches, and indeed across the whole House, will rise up and say, “Well done.” In the midst of all the Brexit chaos, we must do right by these people. In the absence of local institutions, the head of the civil service in Northern Ireland has presided over talks on this issue that have seen consensus reached on the contents of the legislation, which has the support of victims and survivors. This is not a political issue. I speak, and we all speak, on behalf of every victim, whether their vote is cast for my party—the DUP—or not, because the people who come to see us are from all political persuasions and all religious persuasions. Today in the press the Churches were united on what they will want to see and on the legislative change on the 21st that they are worried about.

We should know right from wrong. This is our opportunity to set right what has been wrong, and to do so with no further delay—30 of those who came forward to tell their story at the inquiry have died since the Assembly collapsed in 2017. Now is the time to act. I urge every right-minded person to support these victims and to use this opportunity simply to do right by them. The least that we can do is do right for the victims, and the onus is on the Government to do just that.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Rosie Winterton Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 9th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Emma Little Pengelly]

You have said many times, and it has caused distress, that a woman in Northern Ireland who is raped and seeks an abortion could face a longer jail sentence than her attacker. I have corresponded with the Police Service of Northern Ireland on this matter because of the concern you have caused out there. PSNI has confirmed that no woman has been sent to prison for an abortion-related offence, and I am meeting PSNI to talk it through.

Secondly, the issue about regulations is important. Regardless of whether you perceive abortion to be a right, the regulations are not prescriptive about some of the details highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), but your proposal would mean there is no scrutiny of the regulations.

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. You do not directly address another Member but address your comments through the Chair. This is obviously a sensitive debate, so it is important that we stick to the rules.

[Stella Creasy]

Thank you, Dame Rosie.

It is simply not the case that people have not been prosecuted. A mother is facing a jail sentence in November. We know that, in 2017, a man and woman accepted formal cautions under OPA for the same offence, and the charges were withdrawn only after the judge imposed a ban on identifying the woman due to the heightened risk of her suicide because of her distress at the situation. We know that, in 2016, a 21-year-old pleaded guilty to procuring her own abortion by poison after she bought pills online and her flatmate reported her to the police. Prosecution is a very real prospect in Northern Ireland, but it is not a real prospect for my constituents in another part of the United Kingdom who are in exactly the same situation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. Before I call the shadow Minister, colleagues will be aware that a large number of people wish to contribute. I cannot set a time limit, but let me put it this way: we could certainly get everybody in if everyone spoke for around eight minutes each.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

I shall endeavour to make sure that everyone has time to speak, Dame Rosie.

The Opposition Front-Bench new clauses each cover three issues in three stages. On each issue, the relevant new clause would first, compel the Government to bring forward a report on progress to implement change in the relevant area on or before 4 September 2019; secondly, require the Government to bring forward, within two sitting days of that report, a motion to take note of the report; and thirdly, require the Government then to introduce legislation, following the passing of a motion. Let me be clear that any incoming Labour Government would seek to legislate on these issues.

Let me address new clause 1, which was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn). I can add little to the speeches made by my hon. Friend and the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) on the subject of gay marriage. I will say, though, that I had the very sad honour to attend the funeral of Lyra McKee in Belfast earlier this year. Much attention has been paid to some of the sentiments expressed at that time. We heard that day that Lyra was making arrangements for her own marriage to her partner. Sitting in the cathedral, I was struck by the huge sadness and irony: we rightly praised this remarkable young woman for being a child of the peace process, for being so openly happy with her own sexuality, and for having touched every part of Northern Ireland society with her optimism, but while she was making plans for her marriage to the woman she loved, her own society was in essence saying to her, “Away you go to Donegal. You can’t do that here.” What a great testament it would be to her memory, and for the thousands of people throughout Northern Ireland who simply want to express their love, if we could make progress on this issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Ind)]

On a point of order, Dame Rosie. I know we have very important subjects that Members are keen to debate, so I do not want to detain you, but could you advise me how we can indicate our reaction to the grossly offensive attack by the President of the United States on Her Majesty’s ambassador, and indeed on Her Majesty’s Prime Minister? This afternoon, he has sent some messages that amount to gross discourtesy, and I am certain that many hon. Members will want to indicate that the United Kingdom will not be bullied by anyone, not even the President of the United States.

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. As I am sure he will appreciate, this is not really a matter for the Chair. Obviously, he has put his views on the record and he will be well aware that mechanisms are available to him whereby he might be able to pursue this matter further. I am sure the Table Office would advise him on that, not that he necessarily needs that advice.

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Change UK)]

Further to that point of order, Dame Rosie. Have either you or Mr Speaker had any indication that the Government intend to make a statement about President Trump’s remarks and, in particular, whether they would take reciprocal action as to any reduction in our diplomatic activity in the United States by responding in kind towards the US ambassador in this country?

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point of order. The short answer is: no, I have not received any such indication. However, as I said, there are ways in which these issues can be raised in the House.



Clause 1

Extension of period for forming an Executive

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clause 2 stand part.

Amendment 14, in clause 3, page 2, line 13, leave out “21 October” and insert “4 September”.

This amendment would bring forward the date for a progress report to 4 September 2019.

Amendment 8, page 2, line 13, after “report” insert

“and make an oral statement to Parliament”.

Amendment 6, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) The report under subsection (1) must include a report on progress made towards protecting veterans of the Armed Forces and other security personnel from repeated investigation for Troubles-related incidents by introducing a presumption of non-prosecution, in the absence of compelling new evidence, whether in the form of a Qualified Statute of Limitations or by some other legal mechanism.”

The subsection would include placing a duty on the Secretary of State to report on the options available to ensure that veterans of the Troubles would be able to assist in a truth recovery process, for the benefit of bereaved families, without fear of prosecution.

Amendment 7, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) The report under subsection (1) must include a report on progress made towards developing new prosecution guidance for legacy cases of Troubles-related incidents by the Attorney General for Northern Ireland to take into account whether or not the person who allegedly committed an offence had the means to do so because that person had been lawfully supplied with a deadly weapon, with a presumption in favour of prosecuting in cases where a person who has allegedly committed an offence had the means to do so because that person had been unlawfully supplied with a deadly weapon.”

The subsection would place a duty on the Secretary to State to report on progress made towards a new prosecution guidance taking into account whether or not the person who allegedly committed an offence had been lawfully armed.

Amendment 15, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) The Secretary of State shall make a further report under subsection 1 on or before 9 October 2019 at least every fourteen calendar days thereafter until either an Executive is formed or until 18 December 2019, whichever is the sooner.”

This amendment would require fortnightly reports to be made after the conference recess until an Executive was formed, or until the December recess.

Amendment 18, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) Before making a report under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must publish a report on or before 4 September 2019 on progress made towards preparing legislation confirming the application of the Armed Forces Covenant in the provision of public services in Northern Ireland.”

The subsection would include placing a duty on the Secretary of State to report on the preparation of legislation confirming the application of the Armed Forces Covenant in Northern Ireland.

Amendment 19, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) Before making a report under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must publish a report on or before 4 September 2019 on whether the definition of “victim” in Article 3 of the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 (Order No. 2953 (N.I. 17)) should be revised to apply only to a person who is injured or affected wholly through the actions of another person.”

The subsection would include placing a duty on the Secretary of State to report on the definition of “victim” in the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006.

Amendment 21, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) The report under subsection (1) must include a report to be published on or before 4 September 2019 on progress made in Northern Ireland on—

(a) the law on gaming machines;

(b) the law on online gambling;

(c) the number of people who are seeking treatment for problem gambling;

(d) the services available to people seeking problem gambling; and

(e) the level of support from the gambling industry for problem gambling.”

The subsection would include placing a duty on the Secretary of State to report on various matters related to the law on gambling in Northern Ireland and support for those experiencing problem gambling.

Amendment 22, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) The report under subsection (1) must include a report to be published on or before 4 September 2019 on progress on the use of discretionary powers to provide assistance and support under section 18(9) of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015. The report must cover—

(a) how many times the Department has decided it is necessary to provide assistance and support for victims of human trafficking for whom there has been a conclusive determination that the person is a victim of trafficking in human beings;

(b) the reasons the Department has decided it is necessary to provide assistance and support for victims of human trafficking for whom there has been a conclusive determination that the person is a victim of trafficking in human beings; and

(c) the immigration status of those victims of human trafficking for whom there has been a conclusive determination that the person is a victim of trafficking in human beings who are receiving assistance and support beyond the relevant period.”

The subsection would include placing a duty on the Secretary of State to report on the assistance and support offered to victims of human trafficking in Northern Ireland from receiving a conclusive grounds decision.

Amendment 23, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) The report under subsection (1) must include a report on progress made in preparing legislation to extend the reporting requirements of donations to political parties in Northern Ireland to all donations made after 1 January 2014”.

Amendment 24, page 2, line 15, at end insert—

“(1A) The report under subsection (1) must include a report on progress made in preparing legislation to make provision to recognise coercive control and stalking in Northern Ireland”.

Amendment 16, page 2, line 16, leave out “the report” and insert

“any report under this section”.

This is a consequential amendment.

Amendment 17, page 2, line 16, at end insert—

“(2A) A Minister of the Crown must, within the period of two sitting days beginning with the day on which a report under this section is published, make arrangements for—

(a) a motion to the effect that the House of Commons has approved that report to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of three Commons sitting days beginning with the day on which the report under this section is published, and

(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the report mentioned in paragraph (a) to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of three Lords sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published.

(2B) In this section—

“Commons sitting day” means a day on which the House of Commons is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Commons is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day);

“Lords sitting day” means a day on which the House of Lords is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Lords is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day).”

This amendment would require progress reports to be debated.

Clause 3 stand part.

Clause 4 stand part.

New clause 11—International obligations: oral statement—

“In the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers to address the matters identified by the Report of the inquiry concerning the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland under article 8 of the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland must make an oral statement to the House of Commons on progress on implementing recommendations in accordance with section 26(1) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.”

New clause 12—Requirement on Secretary of State—

“If an Executive is not formed by 21 October 2019, nothing in this Act shall remove the requirement on the Secretary of State set out in section 26(1) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to direct action in the absence of ministers to ensure that all Northern Ireland departments comply with international obligations, and in particular the recommendations made by the Report of the Inquiry concerning the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland under article 8 of the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women.”

New clause 15—Northern Ireland: Armed Forces Covenant—

“(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations to confirm the application of the Armed Forces Covenant in the provision of public services in Northern Ireland.

(2) Regulations under this section must be in force no later than 21 October 2019, subject to subsections (3) and (4).

(3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (1)—

(a) must be laid before both Houses of Parliament;

(b) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

(4) If a Northern Ireland Executive is formed before the regulations under this section come into force, any regulations made under this section and any extant obligations arising under subsection (1) shall cease to have effect.”

This new clause would require UK secondary legislation to confirm the application of the Armed Forces Covenant in Northern Ireland.

New clause 16—Armed Forces Covenant in Northern Ireland: debate—

“(1) A Minister of the Crown must, within the period of two sitting days beginning with the first sitting day on or after the day on which the report on progress made towards preparing legislation confirming the application of the Armed Forces Covenant in the provision of public services in Northern Ireland is published, make arrangements for—

(a) a motion to the effect that the House of Commons has approved that report to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Commons sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published, and

(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the report mentioned in paragraph (a) to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Lords sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published.

(2) In this section—

“Commons sitting day” means a day on which the House of Commons is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Commons is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day);

“Lords sitting day” means a day on which the House of Lords is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Lords is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day).”

This new clause is linked to amendment 18 on a report on progress made towards preparing legislation to confirm the application of the Armed Forces Covenant in Northern Ireland.

New clause 17—Northern Ireland: Definition of victim—

“(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations to amend the definition of “victim” in Article 3 of the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 (Order No. 2953 (N.I. 17)) so that the definition applies only to a person who is injured or affected wholly through the actions of another person.

(2) Regulations under this section must be in force no later than 21 October 2019, subject to subsections (3) and (4).

(3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (1)—

(a) must be laid before both Houses of Parliament;

(b) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

(4) If a Northern Ireland Executive is formed before the regulations under this section come into force, any regulations made under this section and any extant obligations arising under subsection (1) shall cease to have effect.”

This new clause would require UK secondary legislation to amend the definition of “victim” in the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006.

New clause 18—Definition of victim: debate—

“(1) A Minister of the Crown must, within the period of two sitting days beginning with the first sitting day on or after the day on which the report on whether the definition of “victim” in Article 3 of the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 (Order No. 2953 (N.I. 17)) should be revised to apply only to a person who is injured or affected wholly through the actions of another person is published, make arrangements for—

(a) a motion to the effect that the House of Commons has approved that report to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Commons sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published, and

(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the report mentioned in paragraph (a) to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Lords sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published.

(2) In this section—

“Commons sitting day” means a day on which the House of Commons is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Commons is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day);

“Lords sitting day” means a day on which the House of Lords is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Lords is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day).”

This new clause is linked to amendment 19 on a report on whether the definition of “victim” in the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 should be amended by UK secondary legislation.

New clause 20—Law on gambling and support for those experiencing problem gambling in Northern Ireland: debate—

“(1) A Minister of the Crown must, within the period of two sitting days beginning with the first sitting day on or after the day on which the report on gambling in Northern Ireland mentioned in section 3 is published, make arrangements for—

(a) a motion to the effect that the House of Commons has approved that report to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Commons sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published, and

(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the report mentioned in paragraph (a) to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Lords sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published.

(2) In this section—

“Commons sitting day” means a day on which the House of Commons is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Commons is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day);

“Lords sitting day” means a day on which the House of Lords is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Lords is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day).”

This new clause is linked to the amendment 21 on a report on progress made on the law on gambling in Northern Ireland and support for problem gambling, and provides for the report to be debated in Parliament.

New clause 21—Assistance and support for victims of human trafficking in Northern Ireland: debate—

“(1) A Minister of the Crown must, within the period of two sitting days beginning with the first sitting day on or after the day on which the report on assistance and support for victims of human trafficking in Northern Ireland mentioned in section 3 is published, make arrangements for—

(a) a motion to the effect that the House of Commons has approved that report to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Commons sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published, and

(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the report mentioned in paragraph (a) to be moved in that House by a Minister of the Crown within the period of seven Lords sitting days beginning with the day on which the relevant report mentioned in section 3 is published.

(2) In this section—

“Commons sitting day” means a day on which the House of Commons is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Commons is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day);

“Lords sitting day” means a day on which the House of Lords is sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House of Lords is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day).”

This new clause is linked to the amendment 22 on a report on progress made on the law on gambling in Northern Ireland and support for problem gambling, and provides for the report to be debated in Parliament.

[Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con)]

Thank you, Dame Rosie; it is a pleasure to participate in this debate and to raise with the Committee, at this stage, potential amendments to the legislation that I think are capable of improving it for Northern Ireland, as well as for our country as a whole.

I was a little bit startled when I read a tweet by my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield) in which she, first, described the amendments as “Shameful”, which is of course a matter of her opinion, and secondly, went on to say that I had no interest in Northern Ireland. All I can say is that, having been in the House for 22 years, I have acted as a spokesman on Northern Ireland matters when we were in opposition; I served for six years, I think, on the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body; I was chair of the Conservative Back-Bench committee on Northern Ireland in my early years in the House; I participate actively in the British-Irish Association annual conference; and I try to make myself as frequent a visitor to Northern Ireland as I can, sometimes to give talks and lectures, or, indeed, to visit people, and on a number of occasions I have been there on holiday. Whatever my views may be and however much my hon. Friend may think that they are erroneous, I can absolutely assure her that I have Northern Ireland at heart. I am a Unionist and it matters to me very much indeed.

The position on the amendments is fairly straightforward. There is provision in the Bill for a report to be made to the House on how progress is being made on setting up the Executive. I greatly welcome this measure. I apologise to my hon. Friend for the fact that I was not able to be present for the debate yesterday, but it was a debate on a principle that I entirely supported. However, the measure on the report does not go far enough. Quite apart from anything else, we are at the eleventh hour when it comes to the possibility of setting up an Executive, which I believe is massively desirable for the interests of the people of Northern Ireland. It therefore seems to me to be extremely desirable for Members to provide some further impetus and scrutiny for that process, which is why I chose in amendments 14, 15, 16 and 17, along with my right hon. and hon. Friends who support the amendments, to try to move and accelerate the process forward.

For example, amendment 14 would mean that, rather than the report coming back on 21 October, it would come back on 4 September. In addition, I chose to try to make provision for the close monitoring of the process thereafter by the House, by ensuring with amendment 15 that the Secretary of State would make

“a further report under subsection 1 on or before 9 October 2019”,

which is when we come back from the conference recess, and

“at least every fourteen calendar days thereafter until either an Executive is formed or until 18 December 2019, whichever is the sooner.”

Amendment 16 is consequential to that.

Amendment 17 would provide that, in addition to what I have outlined, and so that the House may have an opportunity to indicate how it feels the direction of travel should go and to encourage the Government in their endeavours, there are opportunities within

“two sitting days beginning with the day on which a report under this section is published”

for

“a motion to the effect that the House of Commons has approved that report to be moved”.

There is a similar provision for the House of Lords, which their lordships will of course wish to consider in due course. I believe the amendments provide a sensible package that can help to facilitate the setting up of a Northern Ireland Executive, which I dearly want to see.

It has been raised with me, and I entirely accept, that Brexit also features in this matter, and so it should. Brexit threatens Northern Ireland more than almost any other part of the United Kingdom. It threatens it economically; it threatens it in terms of its security; and it threatens it in terms of its cohesion. For all those reasons, we should as a House—particularly, I might add, those of us who consider ourselves to be Unionists—be exceptionally troubled by the current direction of travel. In particular, I cannot escape the fact that I have listened with astonishment to a number of references from people who may be holding high office in the near future, one of whom appears to think that proroguing Parliament to achieve Brexit is an acceptable form of activity for the leader of the Executive, when in fact it is a constitutional enormity and a gross undermining of democracy.

I freely admit that one of the purposes of these amendments is to try to ensure that this extraordinary threat of really an unprecedented character made against this House that we should be prorogued can be banged on the head. Furthermore, the fact that we should be sitting in October to consider these grave matters in relation to Northern Ireland is, in my view, a good reason why these amendments should be supported. I am mindful of the fact that a further amendment, new clause 14, has, for perfectly understandable reasons, not been selected at this stage of the proceedings because of the nature of its scope. It would have effectively provided—I want to make this point very briefly—that Prorogation could not take place, because when these statements and motions should be made and passed, the House would have to be sitting. That is desirable, because as we approach the crisis that is impending on 31 October, if this House wishes to approve a no-deal Brexit, then so be it, but it should be here to do just that, and not pushed into the margins, as some have suggested in this entirely unconstitutional fashion.