European Council

Stephen Gethins Excerpts

Monday 22nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I do not overstate the red card. It is a new mechanism, not to delay but to properly block initiatives, that is available to national Parliaments should they want to avail themselves of it. To me, this is about another thing that makes this organisation more democratically accountable to national Parliaments. If my hon. Friend is saying that, on some occasions, that might work against us because other national Parliaments might want to stop something on which we were keen, I have to say that I suppose that that is accountability and democracy. The point is that, because of my decision, this organisation will be more democratic rather than less democratic.

[Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)]

As the Prime Minister seems to be getting “nul points” from his own side for these European renegotiations, may I commend him for coming round to Chancellor Merkel’s view on freedom of movement? On freedom of movement, will he assure the House that there will be absolutely no implications from this deal for the hundreds of thousands of UK citizens living in the EU?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course if we stay in the European Union, British people will continue to be able to work abroad, live abroad and retire abroad, as they do now. It is not for me to set out what would happen to them in different circumstances. I think the leave campaign will want to try to address that point, but people know with certainty what they will get if the remain side wins.

UK-EU Renegotiation

Stephen Gethins Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Well, several out campaigns, as the hon. Gentleman says. Once the deal is agreed, we also need to ensure that independent organisations, businesses, non-governmental organisations and any others who think that they would be affected are encouraged to come forward and give their views.

[Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)]

The Prime Minister talks about strengthening all the national Parliaments. Will he tell us, in the spirit of seeing subsidiarity in action, what exactly that will mean for the Scottish Parliament?

[The Prime Minister]

We are currently giving the Scottish Parliament the immense responsibility of being able to raise its own taxes. We are still negotiating that, but it is probably the biggest act of British subsidiarity that we have had for many years, and I would urge the SNP to pick up the baton and run with it.

EU Council

Stephen Gethins Excerpts

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right to raise this issue. It is why a defence co-operation operation is being undertaken in the Mediterranean, in which Britain is playing a very leading part with HMS Enterprise, which is exactly to go after the people smugglers. In time, when there is a proper Government in Libya, we need an agreement with that country that we can stop boats, and indeed turn back boats, when we think that these people should be properly dealt with in Libya—as I say, we need to break the link between their getting in a boat and settlement in Europe. We are working with all the Governments available, but crucially we need a Government in Libya with which we can deal.

[Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)]

May I commend the Prime Minister for, on this day of all days, demonstrating to the Leader of the Opposition that he is not the only one leading a hopelessly divided Cabinet? Does he think that a majority of his Cabinet colleagues will be joining him in the “remain in Europe” campaign?

[The Prime Minister]

The entire Government are behind the strategy of holding a renegotiation and having a referendum, and we have discussed repeatedly what the issues are that need to be renegotiated. What I think is so interesting across the Opposition side of the House of Commons is that there is not one single thing they want to renegotiate. They are not asking for any welfare changes, they are not asking for ever closer union changes, they are not asking for competitiveness changes—all they want to do is come here and carp and cavil at someone who is getting the job done.

ISIL in Syria

Stephen Gethins Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)]

rose—

[Hon. Members]

Go on, give way.

[Crispin Blunt]

I am afraid that I cannot give way to the hon. Gentleman. He is my colleague and friend, and he has made such an excellent impression on the Foreign Affairs Committee so far. If there is time at the end, I will take his intervention.

However, if the Government have chosen a path that will require them to come back to the House for more authority, then that is the Government’s choice. To my mind, ISIL is such a clear and present danger to the civilised world that if all necessary means are endorsed by the Security Council, we should endorse them too.

The Foreign Affairs Committee will continue our inquiry into the international strategy to defeat ISIL and, on behalf of this House, to hold the Government to account in full detail. The right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who is unwell but hopefully in recovery—we wish her a speedy recovery—has communicated to me that she will be supporting the Government this evening. It does not take much guessing to know which side the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) will be on this evening. In my judgment, this House will best discharge its responsibilities by giving our Government the authority they need not just to act with our international partners against this horror, but to influence those partners to make the necessary compromises in their national objectives, and to ensure the collective security of all nations.

[Stephen Gethins]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and I pay tribute to him for his work as Chairman of the Committee. We will not be in the same Lobby tonight, but I pay tribute to him none the less. Earlier on, he talked about where we should sit on this issue. It says in our report that, during our evidence, several witnesses suggested that by participating in military action against ISIL in Syria, the UK would compromise its diplomatic capability.

[Crispin Blunt]

We all have to come to our own conclusions. I say to him and to the House that nothing I have heard in the past month has pointed towards anything except the opposite of that conclusion. Ministers have been clear about that evidence. When we asked that question in every single country that we went to, we were told that the UK’s position was compromised by the fact that we were only half in and half out of the coalition. It is a position of no conceivable diplomatic benefit, and it is one that this House should rectify this evening.

Part of the Prime Minister’s challenge is that we were both in the House 12 years ago when another Prime Minister delivered an utterly compelling performance and we made the United Kingdom party to a disaster in the middle east. It is right that we should be mindful of our recent history, but we must not be hamstrung by it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) and the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn). I shall have to endeavour to explain to them why I think they are both mistaken in their conclusions.

All of us in this House have acknowledged, and indeed it is a legitimate subject of debate, that the condition of the middle east is frankly pretty close to catastrophic. There are powerful forces at work pulling civil society apart. There is sectarian conflict. There are a whole variety of grievances that have been exploited by various dictators throughout the ages, and that is regularly being repeated. All the signs are that in many places the structure is extremely fragile, and we are very fortunate that in one or two areas it is subsisting.

We can all agree on that, and I also agree that the situation is not amenable to any easy solution, or we would have found it a long time ago, but none of that explains to me logically why some hon. Members in this House consider that action in extending our military operations against Daesh into Syria is wrong. If it is indeed wrong, then our intervention in Iraq 12 months ago was wrong, whereas all the analysis that I have seen suggests to me that it is the one thing that has prevented the situation from wholly spinning out of control. We have a remarkable tendency in this House—perhaps it is a good thing in a democracy—to look at our shortcomings and not look at the benefits of what we may have achieved. It seems to me that if we had not intervened, there was a serious risk that generalised war would have broken out in the middle east, with Iranian intervention in Iraq to prop up the Iraqi regime and, ultimately, intervention by Saudi Arabia as well. We ought to look on the bright side of what has been achieved and then consider whether the limited steps that have been proposed are reasonable. It seems to me that they are. They are not a solution to the problem, and to that extent, the challenge remaining for my right hon. Friends through the Vienna process is a very real one. It does not seem to me that those limited steps will make matters worse. What they show is a comity of interest with our allies, to whom we are committed, to try to do something to address this problem and to keep it under control until better solutions can be found. That seems to me to be a legitimate and proportionate response to the problem that we face.

It has been suggested that this will all in some way run away with itself. It will not do so if the House is vigilant. The legal basis for intervention is very limited: every action that is taken hereafter will have to be necessary and proportionate to achieve a legitimate aim that is severely circumscribed. I have every confidence that my right hon. and learned Friend and my hon. and learned Friend the Law Officers will be able to deal with that, and every confidence that my colleagues in the Government will observe the limits.

It has been suggested that we will not be able to engage in diplomacy. I have to say I was staggered to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) say that we ought to emulate the Chinese in this matter, rather than the French. I find that an extraordinary notion.

[Stephen Gethins]

As a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) quite rightly made the point that the UK can maintain its influence without taking military action that will have a marginal effect.

[Mr Grieve]

If I may say so, the question that should be asked is a different one: does our involvement diminish our ability to exercise diplomatic influence? The hon. Gentleman fails to take into account that by withdrawing from the military process entirely, as he is clearly advocating, we diminish our ability to influence the allies who share our values in this matter. That is why I found the suggestion that we should emulate China so astonishing.

Finally, there is an issue of great importance about Islamophobia and the structures of our own society. The hon. Member for Newport West touched on it, and he has my very considerable sympathy; he probably knows that I have had an interest in this matter for many years. I have absolutely no doubt that Islamophobia is on the rise in this country and, indeed, that the backwash coming out of the middle east threatens to undermine our civil society. That is a very real challenge that everybody in the House ought to address. In that regard, my criticisms of the Prevent strategy are well known. I must say that I do not believe what we are doing in Syria undermines that one jot. On the contrary, I would have thought that a sense of powerlessness in the face of the murderous cruelty of Daesh is one of the most likely causes fuelling Islamophobia in this country. A rational policy enacted and proceeded with by the Government—with, I hope, the support of many Members of the House—seems to me to be a better way forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)]

As a number of my hon. Friends have said tonight, this is the first time we have had to take such a serious decision, and it is not one that we take lightly. We do not ask whether we should tackle Daesh, but what the most effective means of doing so is.

[Drew Hendry]

Earlier, my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond) talked about choking off Daesh propaganda. Does my hon. Friend agree that there has been a lack of discussion from the Government about how to choke off the money supply and the propaganda?

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Gethins]

My hon. Friend raises a valid point, which was picked up in the Foreign Affairs Committee’s report. Before I touch on that, however, I want to say that when we think about how we vote tonight, we think about the lessons we have learned. We all do. I respect everybody in the House, regardless of the Lobby they go through tonight. We learn from the facts of Libya, and that we spent £320 million bombing the country and £25 million on reconstruction. We learn from the catastrophic failure of post-conflict reconstruction in Iraq, which led to the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives, and to a political vacuum in that country that has led to many of the problems we see today.

It has been a privilege to sit on the Foreign Affairs Committee, and I pay particular credit to its Chairman, the hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt). We will go through different Lobbies tonight, but I give him credit for his work. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) and the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), and I am sure that all Members will join me in wishing them a speedy recovery.

I hope you will not mind my saying, Mr Speaker, that those who have not yet read the Committee’s report have about half an hour. Perhaps they can skim-read it. I would thoroughly recommend it. It sets out a series of recommendation and is based on evidence.

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

According to the Prime Minister’s statement last week, the Government’s strategy is predicated on a new Syrian Government, but does my hon. Friend agree that given that the Prime Minister has ruled out regime change or boots on the ground, it is extremely unclear how that new Government will come about?

[Stephen Gethins]

We have not seen enough on the forward planning and the long-term planning, which is a cause for concern for me, as I know it is for other Members. We need ground troops, but we have not heard enough about how we have got them; where did the 70,000 come from? I raised this with the Foreign Secretary back in July, and this was something that we included—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has the Floor. It would be a courtesy if he would respect my wish that two other colleagues briefly contribute. I feel sure that he is reaching his peroration, which will not last longer than 30 seconds or so.

[Stephen Gethins]

In that case, Mr Speaker, let me just touch on a couple of points. We are often accused of using the tactics of the past, and the criticism is made that we are fighting the last war, rather than a current war. We do not want to do that. I give credit to Members across this House when I say that we want the same thing: to put an end to Daesh for good. It is my view that taking the same old route of bombing without a long-term strategy will lead only to failure, which is why I will back the multi-party amendment tonight.

Syria

Stephen Gethins Excerpts

Thursday 26th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

May I thank my hon. Friend for her support? This is a different question that the House is considering, and I do not want to go back over past ground. This is a new question, and I would appeal to colleagues right across the House to respond in the way that she has done.

In terms of the moderate forces, this is the remaining disagreement between us and Russia. So far, Russia has done more to inflict damage on the moderate forces than on ISIL. There are some signs of that changing, and we need to encourage that to change more, not least because in the processes we have had in the past, including the Geneva processes, the Russians have accepted that people such as the Free Syrian Army and their civilian representatives should play a part in the future of Syria.

[Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)]

As a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, I thank the Prime Minister for coming to the House to deal with some of the issues raised in our report about how we can best and most effectively bring an end to Daesh. The House has been asked to commit to military action in the past in areas such as Libya and Iraq, as the Prime Minister said, and that has ended badly. I do not believe that he has yet answered our questions adequately on issues such as ground troops or a long-term strategy. Further to the comments by the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, will the Prime Minister give a commitment to appear before the Committee to give evidence before a motion comes before the House to approve military action?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very happy to appear in front of the Select Committee. I cannot promise to do that before a vote in this House, but obviously, were there to be a vote in this House, I would appear in this House—at this Dispatch Box—for a full day’s debate. I will sit and listen to contributions, I will take questions, and I will take as many interventions as I possibly can.

I would say to the hon. Gentleman that I think the Select Committee asked good questions, and I would urge him to read our response in full; it is incredibly detailed. The Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee has, I think, indicated that the answers are satisfactory. I ask the hon. Gentleman, as a member of that respected Select Committee, to look at it carefully. If there are other points that he wants to raise and write to me about, I am very happy to enter into a correspondence with him.

European Council

Stephen Gethins Excerpts

Monday 19th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We should seek to persuade President Assad not to use barrel bombs against his own people, not least because they are illegal under international law because in many cases he is using chemical weapons. We have to be frank that in many ways the reason why the Russians became more involved in the conflict is that they feared that Assad was on the brink of falling. What we need to do now is get to a situation where it is clear that there is a stalemate and the only way forward for Syria is to have a new Government, who can of course have a relationship with Russia and Iran, but who are also capable of governing on behalf of all the people of Syria, not just the Alawites, but the Sunnis, the Christians and the Kurds.

[Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)]

Research made available to me from the House of Commons Library showed that we spent 13 times more bombing Libya than we did on reconstruction efforts afterwards. Does the Prime Minister think he got that right? What lessons can be drawn from the Libyan campaigns in terms of long-term strategic planning for Syria?

[The Prime Minister]

In the Libyan campaign we acted in response to a potential humanitarian catastrophe when Gaddafi was about to murder his own people. After that conflict we stood ready to help the new Libyan Government in any way they wanted help. I brought them to the G8 summit in Northern Ireland. We tried to help them train some of their security forces. We were ready to help in any way we could. It has to be remembered that Libya is not a poor country. It is a middle-income country with huge oil resources which, if spent in the right direction, could help the welfare of its people, but it did not take that path. That is the tragedy for the people of Libya.

Debate on the Address

Stephen Gethins Excerpts

Wednesday 27th May 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to speak this evening. This is the second maiden speech today, following the excellent contribution by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara). May I take a moment to thank you, Mr Speaker, and your colleagues across the parliamentary estate for all the help and co-operation that have been afforded to all the new SNP MPs since we were elected? The SNP group has grown more than ninefold since the election, causing something of a logistical headache for your colleagues. Their efforts are hugely appreciated, not least by those of us who have got lost around the parliamentary estate, rather than politically. As we have proudly pointed out, we are wearing the white rose of Scotland—we have no plans on Yorkshire just yet. Members will be glad to learn that well over 40 of us are still in the Chamber. As far as I am aware, the Whips have not told me that we have any plans for a snap vote this evening, so Members can all rest easy.

I would like to take the opportunity to refer to my predecessor, the right honourable Sir Menzies Campbell, who served the people of North East Fife with such enormous distinction over many years. He is held in fond affection by people there; I know that from my own experience. I also know that he is held in fond affection by Members from across the Chamber, not least of course the Liberal Members. I know that Members across this House, like my constituents and me, will want to wish him every happiness and a fulfilling retirement. He richly deserves it.

I am sure that Sir Menzies will not mind me saying that we do not agree on everything. However, we do agree that it is a huge privilege to serve the constituency of North East Fife. It is a wonderful constituency and a diverse one, running from the coast of Leven all the way to the old borough of Newburgh. Within that wide and diverse constituency lies Scotland’s oldest university, founded in 1413 and still a centre of educational excellence. In fact, I know that there are Members from across the Chamber who have benefited from that education. St Andrews remains an outstanding and ground-breaking institution. Indeed, since the last Parliament was dissolved, the university has announced it will be building a clean biomass facility in Guardbridge, which will make it Europe’s first carbon-neutral university—so it is still ground-breaking, 600 years on.

North East Fife is also home to some of our finest industries, such as tourism. As Members will be aware, it is the home of golf. It is also home to some of our finest food and drink industries. In recent years, the food and drink industry in Scotland has gone from strength to strength and credit should be given to Richard Lochhead and to the Scottish Government for their work on promoting that industry. More importantly, credit should also go to the entrepreneurs. Food and drink from North East Fife is now a byword for excellence and quality. It also provides, the Chancellor will be pleased to learn, significant exports and revenues. Among other fine small businesses, I have distilleries, Members will all be pleased to learn, at Kingsbarns, Daftmill and Eden Mill. I can assure Members of the excellence of those products. Actually I hope that the House will consider stocking some of the produce from my constituency over the coming months and years.

There are plans for another distillery on the site of Lindores Abbey. In fact one of the first references to whisky came in 1494. The Chancellor will again be pleased to learn that that was for an Exchequer roll. I will keep Members informed of the quality of that product, too.

It would be remiss of me not to mention the Queen’s Speech—after all, that is what this debate is about. I want to mention something that is important to communities across North East Fife: the relationship with our European partners. Today in the Queen’s Speech we heard proposals about a referendum on our membership of the EU. We on these Benches fully intend to make a positive case for Scotland’s and the UK’s continued membership of the EU, and you will be pleased to learn, Mr Speaker, that we have some experience with referendums on these Benches. The Scottish referendum—regardless of whether people voted yes or no—illustrated what happens when we have an open and positive debate. It was an enriching experience for our democracy and everybody in Scotland.

That is why we want to look at a positive case, and even look at some areas where we could deepen our relationship with our European partners. Should we, for instance, be looking at greater co-operation on foreign and security issues, as has been mentioned by a number of Members? The refugee crisis in the Mediterranean is an issue not just for Malta or Italy, or Libya or Syria for that matter; it is an issue for us all, and I am delighted that Members from every party across this House have mentioned that.

We also need to build relationships with other countries, not least on how we deal with the ongoing crisis in Ukraine and elsewhere in the former Soviet Union—where I personally have a little professional background. We should also be looking at working with our European partners in considering the challenges of, and opportunities provided by, tackling climate change and the benefits that a social Europe and a Europe that promotes a living wage and other benefits to its citizens can provide.

None of us on the SNP Benches is saying Europe does not need reforms. The common fisheries policy has had a devastating impact on communities across my constituency in the East Neuk of Fife and elsewhere across Scotland, as my colleagues will testify. Similarly, the expensive practice of moving the Parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg every month defies any logic in these times of straitened budgets.

The Scottish referendum provided many lessons, most notably the case for making a positive budget and including as many of our citizens as possible in the debate about the future of our respective nations. That leads me on to the important point of the franchise. I think everyone would agree that extending the franchise in the Scottish referendum to 16 and 17-year-olds and EU nationals living in Scotland was a good thing. We are currently in a situation where nationals of Cyprus or Malta can vote in the upcoming referendum, but not an MSP called Christian Allard who is a French national and who makes a significant contribution to our country.

A short time ago, the hon. Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith) made a fine contribution in which she referred to low turnout among young people. All Members have a responsibility to think about how we can engage young people in the political process. I think a good place to start is votes for 16-year-olds, particularly in this referendum. Why should those with the greatest investment in the future not have a say in that future? We should be broadening things to include EU nationals and 16-year-olds. I strongly believe that it is the electorate who should make the decisions about the politicians and not the other way round, with the politicians choosing the electorate.

A vibrant democracy should also be reflected in this House. My colleagues’ comments have reflected the SNP’s willingness to work with Members from all parties in furthering the aims on which we stood and in furthering democracy across the United Kingdom. The Government may have a majority, but we must remember that they returned only one MP from Scotland, whereas the SNP returned 56, and I think they should be looking to work with us.

In Holyrood the SNP worked with parties across the Chamber and there is always scope to learn. During the period of minority Administration from 2007 to 2011 the SNP worked well, and nobody in this Chamber has greater experience of building alliances than my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond). No party, not least our own, has a monopoly on wisdom or good practice. We would be the first party to recognise that. The SNP recognised that fact during its time in government, and we will recognise it during our time on these Benches as well. Mr Speaker, I should like to thank you for this opportunity to make my maiden speech, but most of all I should like to thank the voters of North East Fife for giving me the enormous privilege of representing them for the next five years.