Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 21st November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Alex Chalk]

Pithy and perfect—my right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Under the old technology, all that the so-called radio frequency tags could tell the probation service was whether that individual had left the premises to which he had been bailed or curfewed. The modern GPS tags are far more effective, because they can indicate where that person has gone, keeping them under a tight rein. We have additional tags, including alcohol monitoring tags to allow the courts and probation services also to monitor alcohol where that is the root cause of the offending.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Is the evidence not clear that short prison sentences do not work, and that women’s centres, which deal with drug and alcohol abuse, mental health issues and so on, can be effective? It would make a lot of sense to roll that out for the male population—it is cheaper and it is better.

[Alex Chalk]

I am delighted to hear that from the hon. Gentleman. We have to follow the evidence, which shows that short sentences of immediate custody lead to a higher reoffending rate than those where the sentence is suspended, albeit on tight conditions, which might include curfew, an unpaid work order and potentially a rehabilitation requirement. Why? Because if the offender fails to comply, the probation service can find them in breach and bring them back before the court, where they will then likely hear the clang of the prison gate. We will follow the evidence. We make no apology for using our custodial estate to lock up the most dangerous offenders for longer and take them out of circulation. But protecting the public also means ensuring that those who would otherwise reoffend get off the conveyor belt of crime.

Prisons Strategy

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 7th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for all the work he has done on this issue. We are very appreciative of his commitment to it and of his particular commitment to neurodiverse prisoners. We are considering and learning from the joint inspectorate’s call for evidence, and we will very much take those findings into account when we are designing new prisons. The need for continuity of treatment is also central to the White Paper. We want to ensure that treatment that is given in prison continues beyond the prison gates, so that people have the best chance possible of leading lives that are free from crime and safe for the rest of the community.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

The Minister said that the cost of reoffending was some £18 billion, but it is the victims of those crimes that we should think of first. If we know that women’s centres are more effective than prisons in cutting reoffending, we need to ensure that the necessary resources are going into those women’s centres. Also, what is good for women in this case would be good for many men as well.

[Victoria Atkins]

In fairness, I went on to say that the human costs were far greater. On women’s centres, only last week I was extolling the success of the Greater Manchester commitment to looking after and treating female offenders in a holistic way and the dramatic decreases in reoffending in that area. Of course there are lessons that can be applied in the male estate from what we are undertaking in the female estate. I very much want this policy to be applicable to all prisoners, but I have a particular focus on the vulnerabilities of some—not all, but some—female prisoners.

Ten-Year Drugs Strategy

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 6th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Kit Malthouse]

I understand what my hon. Friend said about the implications of the Act. At the moment, we do not have any plans to revise it, but we will bring forward a White Paper in the spring that will lay out, in particular, where we want to go on dealing with the overwhelming volume of drug consumption, which is among those who do not regard themselves as addicted.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I also welcome the move, if it is genuine, to begin to treat the serious use of class A drugs as a health, rather than a criminal justice, problem. That will make a material difference if the money is there. We know that one driver of criminal gangs is high-volume cannabis sales that allow the structure to remain intact. Will the Minister look very seriously at evidence from Portugal, for example, on using administrative methods, or from parts of North America or other European countries where cannabis has been taken out of the drug supply industry? It is radical, but it may make a real difference.

[Kit Malthouse]

Our intentions are genuine and the money is there; I hope and believe that the strategy will make a difference over the next decade. As I said, we will look at evidence from around the world. I have to tell the hon. Gentleman, however, that it is widely accepted that the legalisation of cannabis in California has been a disaster. Although Portugal has seen the number of drug deaths drop, drug consumption has risen, and it still does enforcement very heavily on supply. The picture across the world definitely needs examination, but I am not sure that it will lead to the lessons that he outlines.

Protecting the Public and Justice for Victims

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Wednesday 9th June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

As ever, I agree with a lot of what the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) had to say. In particular, I agree with him that the Justice Secretary is an honourable man, and I applaud many of the things for which he claimed credit for the current Government and the steps taken forward.

Nevertheless, the reality is that my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) made a powerful case about the underfunding of our criminal justice system, as, indeed, did the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst. We have an underfunded justice system. If a person from Mars arrived tomorrow, he or she would recognise that there is no such thing as a joined-up criminal justice system. Importantly, there no such thing as an acceptable victim’s journeys through the whole process. There are too many areas where victims are let down.

Of course, there are some bright points. Rape is better investigated by the police today than it was in the past, but domestic violence is not always. In domestic abuse cases, people get the police officer on duty, who could be brilliant but could also be massively non-empathetic. That cannot be right. There is not enough money for training our police and we have to look at that.

Really important steps have been made on the protection of victims of domestic abuse, but we have an underfunded refuge system. Women in particular, but also men, are having to travel way outside their own area to find a place in a refuge when they flee domestic violence. Last year, something like 56%—or thereabouts—of victims of domestic abuse were turned away. That cannot be right.

Things go wrong in the prosecution system. An underfunded Crown Prosecution Service is simply not acceptable. The liaison between the police and the CPS is not strong enough. I have never understood why it is not possible to have—I wanted to see them in my own local police force—dedicated police officers who work all the time with the CPS to make sure that files are transferred properly and competently.

Within the CPS, the practice of barristers coming in late on and picking up cases without really knowing what they are until the day of the trial is unacceptable. A friend of mine was kidnapped and raped, but because the barrister decided it would be impossible to prove the charge of rape, the defendant got off scot-free. No other charge had been laid—the charge of kidnap was simply not available. That cannot be right.

When it comes to our court system, it cannot be right that, for victims and witnesses—and witnesses are often victims—not only are there delays, but the process is intimidatory. That is unacceptable. It cannot be right when cases drag on not only for weeks but for months. There must be investment in training but we must also drive through a joined-up approach to our criminal justice system that says, yes, victims and witnesses are central to it, not simply bolt-on extras. We have a brilliant sexual assault referral system in this country. We should treasure it, but we should fund it properly.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Kit Malthouse]

My hon. Friend rightly identifies an expanding area of business, sadly, for the courts and the police. He will be pleased to know that just last week, I held a meeting with the National Economic Crime Centre at the National Crime Agency to talk specifically about this issue. He will understand the complexity of online fraud in particular, whereby the offender may well be overseas, laundering money through a third territory and banking it in a fourth. Nevertheless, we need to do more to increase our capacity and capability to tackle this issue, to which we are all, including me, subject.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

Far too many women are sentenced by our courts to short or very short prison sentences. The overwhelming evidence is that non-custodial sentences, with properly resourced and properly structured alternatives to prison, work better in preventing reoffending. What are the Government doing to ensure that we invest in these non-custodial options for the courts to use?

[Robert Buckland]

The hon. Gentleman speaks with a lot of experience, not just as a Member of this House but as a former police and crime commissioner. He will be reassured to know that the female offender strategy continues. In particular, with regard to the work that we are doing on pre-sentence reports, we will help courts and decision makers come to conclusions based upon community sentence treatment requirements, whether that is support for addiction or for mental health problems, which are a constructive direct alternative to those short terms of imprisonment that he rightly criticises.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 8th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

What progress he has made on implementing the female offender strategy.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

What progress he has made on implementing the female offender strategy.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy Frazer)]

The female offender strategy launched an ambitious programme to improve outcomes for female offenders and make society safer by tackling the causes of offending. It will take several years to deliver, but, two years on, we are making good progress. We have invested over £5 million in 30 women’s services across England and Wales, and we are in the process of allocating a further £2.5 million to increase the financial stability of those providing these important services.

[Lucy Frazer]

The hon. Member will know that we are looking at the Mental Health Act 1983 provisions and reviewing them. We never think that it should be appropriate to use prison as a place of safety. Combined with that, we recognise the need to tackle mental health issues in all those who come through the justice system, particularly women, because women have a high incidence of mental health needs. We will be looking carefully at how we can commit further funds to ensure that women and men get the services they need to help to turn their lives around.

[Tony Lloyd [V]]

We know that the majority of women sentenced for non-violent crimes are given short prison sentences, which are totally ineffective in rehabilitation but can split up families, put children into care and lead to eviction from the home—all things that we should not want to happen. Women’s centres are successful, as we know in Greater Manchester. They are cost-effective, but also much better in human terms and better for society. Can the Minister guarantee that we will enhance the investment in those centres and get women who should not be in prison out of prison and into the kind of care that makes a difference to them and to society?

[Lucy Frazer]

The hon. Member makes a very important point: we need to ensure that we support women not only in custody, but outside it. He will have heard me mention that we are in the midst of a £2.5 million funding exercise, in which some of the money will go to community centres. However, we are doing other things as well, such as improving pre-sentence reports to ensure that women get the right order and go into the community, not into custody, where that is appropriate. He will also have heard me announce recently our first residential women’s centre, which will be in Wales and which we are progressing with. It is for those women who are on the cusp of custody, but whom we do not want to put in custody where we can avoid that, so that they can instead be ordered by the court to go into a residential women’s centre, which will better look after their needs.

Courts and Tribunals: Recovery

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Robert Buckland]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He is right to say that, while covid has been a huge challenge for all of us, we have learned many things about the way in which the system works together, the way in which we use technology and the blend that we can achieve with regard to hearings being partially remote and partially in person. We will never go back to the position prior to the pandemic because, of course, we were already investing over £1 billion in our court reform programme, which was all about improving the technology on the court estate. He is right to make that important point.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

I absolutely agree with the Lord Chancellor that an efficient court process is fundamental not simply for individual justice but for our democracy as we want to know it. However, cuts have had an impact on the courts service. He rightly refers to victims—particularly child victims—of sexual violence, and I welcome his words on that. Nothing can be more painful or traumatic than the long-drawn-out process we saw in the past, so I welcome his assurance that such trials are early-listed relative to others, but he knows that in some cases where trials are adjourned, they can still run on not simply for weeks and months but for years. That is painful and absolutely traumatic. Does he agree that we must set targets and ensure that we do not have repetition of delay on delay in those most traumatic and most human of cases?

[Robert Buckland]

I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman. As a former police and crime commissioner, he knows the effects of that appalling crime on victims. He will be glad to know that final roll-out of section 28 cross-examination has now been completed in our criminal courts, which means that victims will be able not only to give their evidence in chief on video without having to come to court, as they have been able to do for a number of years—of course, they can do that at an earlier stage—but to be cross-examined on video as well before the trial hearing, saving them additional pain and difficulty when it comes to the court process. There is a lot of reform going on to improve the experience, but he is absolutely right to continue to press me for more and more improvement. I will work on that basis.

Sentencing White Paper

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Robert Buckland]

My right hon. Friend knows that everybody in this country is equal before the law, and fair trials have to happen. Legal costs are, of course, paid to the people who represent criminals or accused people. I take his point about ensuring that our legal aid system is efficient and that money is not wasted, but the fundamental principle of the right to a fair trial is something that I will defend and that I think he would agree with as well.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

There is much in the Lord Chancellor’s statement that I strongly welcome, as a former police and crime commissioner. I want to raise an issue that I know he is well aware of. In my constituency, there are many people who were victims of evil men who sexually abused them. Those women will carry that burden for the rest of their lives. It is incomprehensible that, once the perpetrators have finished their term before probation and been released, there is nothing to stop them confronting their victims. The victims could walk round the corner and find their attacker in front of them. Can the Lord Chancellor assure me that, as part of the White Paper, we can look at how that can be prevented in future, even if it cannot be done retrospectively?

[Robert Buckland]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for raising that. We have met to discuss this matter. It seems to me that existing types of order—for example, crime prevention orders and serious crime prevention orders—could potentially be used, particularly where somebody has completed their term of imprisonment and licence and therefore the probation service’s involvement has come to an end. I will welcome further engagement with him, because he not only speaks for past victims; he speaks for people whose voice has yet to be heard and whose voice must be heard if we are to effectively protect the victims of sexual abuse.

Victims of Crime: Rights

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Westminster Hall

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) for securing this really important debate. We have heard many important contributions. Like the hon. Member for Telford (Lucy Allan), I have had to live through the aftermath of child sexual exploitation in my area. She is absolutely right in everything she says. We must never blame the victims. We must stand up and speak out for victims of criminal behaviour. I encourage her to continue to demand that there is proper insight. In the end, all local agencies must demonstrate that they have genuinely, not formulaically, learnt lessons. They must demonstrate a different way of working that makes it more likely that we ask questions when a 14-year-old has a 35-year-old boyfriend.

I will make a few brief points, Mrs Main, because I know you are anxious to bring in the Front-Bench speakers at—

[Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)]

At 15.29, so you have a while. Ms Huq may or may not wish to speak.

[Tony Lloyd]

I will not take long, in that case. The comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) are really important. Antisocial behaviour matters. Actually, it kills in the worst situations, and even if we are not talking about those extremes it certainly makes people’s lives miserable. It destroys the quality of people’s lives and we must take that seriously. She is right. Obviously, this can be a political point, but the Government must take it on board that it has become much more difficult now for our police to investigate things that fall off the radar, which they simply ought not. It is an important issue to raise.

Like the hon. Members for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) and for Torbay (Kevin Foster), I am a big supporter of restorative justice. I regret that I was not in the House in 2016 to speak on the Select Committee report, but I was aware of its conclusions. Restorative justice fundamentally delivers to victims the sense that their needs are being taken seriously. That is as important in prosecutions as when there is a decision not to take a case forward, which can sometimes be appropriate.

I think of the case of a woman who was a very strong advocate. Other hon. Members might have heard her speak. Her house was burgled and a new camera was taken. Sadly, her daughter was killed in a car crash weeks later and the last remaining photographs of her daughter were lost with the camera. She never saw the photographs but she was prepared to work with the perpetrator, who went to prison. That was important for at least giving her a sense of easement, although you can never reconcile yourself to the loss of a child. It also meant that that long-term burglar effectively ceased his former habit, so it worked in more than one way, but—there is always a “but”—training is absolutely important. We cannot see the process as something to be delivered on the streets, with no training. There must be supervision to ensure that standards are maintained. Importantly, there must be victim volition. The process cannot be forced on a victim, or denied to a victim who is not aware that they could demand it. I support the call for a statutory framework, and of course my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West argued for that.

[Robert Neill]

I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman is back in the House after a brief gap. I hope he will take part in further debates. Given what he has said, does he agree on the importance of the point made in the Justice Committee report, that restorative justice must always be victim-led—the victim’s choice at all times—and that there must be proper professional support right the way through? It is important that victims be given full information about what is available in their area, and that something genuinely meaningful should be in place—not simply a leaflet.

[Tony Lloyd]

Absolutely. The hon. Gentleman—let me say my hon. Friend for the sake of this debate—is right on both counts. The second point is fundamental in bringing about the first, because if victims do not have confidence in the process it withers. It is not just victims, in fact, because the community must have confidence, through the victims, that the decisions are not arbitrary, and will deliver something to victims and do something more generally to change behaviour. In the end, the process is about helping victims and changing perpetrators’ behaviour.

Perhaps I may now touch on the rather more aggressive side of what, sadly, happens to victims. Sometimes victims are treated horrendously within the processes. I know that the Minister is sympathetic to these points. Many years ago, I dealt with a grieving family whose son had been stabbed to death at a party. The charge was murder and the case took many months, as such cases do, to come to court. Eventually, on the day of the trial, the family were told that the murder charge could not be sustained, because the prosecuting barrister had said he could not deliver it on the available evidence. No other charge of manslaughter or lesser offences had been brought, and that meant that the two perpetrators went scot-free. The family were left devastated.

That was a long time ago and I would be happy if I could say that those were the bad old days and that things have moved on. However, they have not. Victims still sometimes find that the failure of the prosecution service to examine information in time, or the failure of the courts to process cases, means they face a long journey between becoming a victim and their case coming to court, only to find that when it gets to court they are left frustrated and dissatisfied.

[Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is highlighting important issues to do with the CPS and the rights of victims. Does he agree that one thing that undermines victims of crime is the Crown’s inability to appeal against sentences that are simply too lenient? That can happen only in a very few cases at the moment, and victims of crime feel powerless under the current system to ensure that the appropriate sentence is imposed on an offender.

[Tony Lloyd]

I have a lot of sympathy with that point. The procedure could not be used in every case, but perhaps society should recognise the need to use it more widely than happens now. Sometimes the courts do get things wrong.

I do not want to go into too much detail about the next case I shall mention. A young woman was effectively kidnapped from a bar, and it was believed that she had been raped. She had certainly been sexually assaulted. She faced months of adjournments and new trial dates. In the end, the case came to court more than two and a half years from the original event. The perpetrator had been charged with rape and the prosecution counsel determined only at a late stage that it was not possible, on the evidence, to sustain that charge. Because no other charges had been laid—not kidnap or sexual assault, which are pretty serious charges—the perpetrator walked free, as in my other example. That is human incompetence, and for the victim it was outrageous. I have spoken to her, and had she known what would happen she would never have consented to the case’s going forward.

Those are cases of human error, but such human error is systemic within the present system. Prosecuting barristers often do not come to the cases until late in the process. We must do something about that. We must begin to put victims first in the criminal justice system, rather than treating them as an afterthought. We are not at that point yet.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 6th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

I hope to be able to bring forward further news on the courts Bill in the near future, but I am not going to give the undertaking the hon. Lady seeks. It is important that we continue to look to get the best out of the resources we have. If that means reforms here in making greater use of digital technology and ensuring that our court estate is as rational and efficient as possible, we will need to continue to do that.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

3. What assessment his Department has made of the time taken to bring to court criminal cases involving vulnerable witnesses.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lucy Frazer)]

I understand that the hon. Gentleman has a great interest in this area and did a lot of work when he was the police and crime commissioner of Greater Manchester, calling for a review of how victims and witnesses are treated in the criminal justice system. It is right that cases come to court as quickly as possible, and timeliness in the criminal courts system is improving. The average mean number of days from listing to completion is down from 33 in 2015 to 27 in the third quarter of 2017. Unfortunately, as he will know, there are particular challenges in relation to sex offences, where it does take longer for cases to come to court.

[Tony Lloyd]

The Minister is absolutely right that there are complexities in cases of, for example, child sexual abuse or rape. Nevertheless, constant, even legitimate, adjournments in cases can lead to months of delay. Sometimes, it takes years before victims come to court. Victims who are already traumatised by what has happened to them deserve better than to be traumatised by the process. Can we make them a priority?

[Lucy Frazer]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that we need to be extremely careful with vulnerable witnesses and witnesses in sex cases and ensure that they get justice. We are bringing in and rolling out measures on the taking of their evidence to ensure that they can do that pre-trial and therefore safely, which will speed up justice. As the hon. Gentleman knows and as the Secretary of State has mentioned, we are hoping to introduce the courts Bill, which will ensure the streamlining of justice and do away with unnecessary hearings. Hopefully, that will speed up access to justice.