Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Monday 13th October 2025

(began 2 hours, 22 minutes ago)

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14:54

Baroness Kramer (Liberal Democrat)

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same. Has the government been tracking how many of those Sen pupils without an EHCP have moved, and is it looking at the impact both on children and schools, including school finances?

14:54

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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Yeah.

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I'm grateful to the noble Lady for a question, and I know that this is an issue that she cares deeply is an issue that she cares deeply about. We've had discussions on this point in the past. Absolutely. We recognise that the current Sen system is not delivering the outcomes that pupils and parents rightly expect, and is placing unsustainable burdens upon local unsustainable burdens upon local schools, local authorities and on taxpayers. And the government will set out the detail of its reform set out the detail of its reform plans in the context of the wider school strategy later this year.

In terms of specific pupil movements. As I say, those pupil movements are As I say, those pupil movements are in line with the estimates that we set out at the time of the last budget. Those estimates were budget. Those estimates were assessed by the OBR and we remain confident in them. I think it's worth noting that so far this year, 49 private schools have closed, but 70 private schools have opened. And 70 private schools have opened. And of those, 70 private schools that have opened, 59 of them are special educational schools.

14:55

Lord Gove (Conservative)

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educational schools. My Lord my Lords my Lords my

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Lords my Lord. Thank you, my Lords. The government pledged at the last government pledged at the last election that this tax increase would pay for 6500 new teachers in state schools. Over the last year, this government has seen the number of teachers in state schools drop by more than 400. How can -400 be an addition? Even in the crazy Treasury?

14:55

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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Yeah. one of the leading proponents for Brexit, so I think he would know. He would know all about crazy mathematics. This measure raises £1.7 billion to spend on state schools. He will have seen that in the previous SR settlement for schools to raise school standards for every child and break down barriers to opportunity, the government is increasing the school core schools budget by £4.7 billion per year by 2829. This is a real terms increase of 1.1% on average each year on a per pupil basis, taking per pupil funding to a new record high.

Yes, Minister.

14:56

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (Crossbench)

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Notice that the.

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Sorry Minister. Comment on data that seems to infer that schools are using some of this additional money to fund free school meals because there is insufficient funding for

14:56

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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there is insufficient funding for the level of the cost of those meals. Rather than employing more teachers.

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Well, I don't know about specific decisions that each individual school is making, obviously, how the school is making, obviously, how the individual schools fund this specific policy is a matter for those individual schools, but I am

14:56

Lord Watts (Labour)

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very confident that our free school meals policy is fully funded. when.

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the. Opposition claimed that. It would. Shut schools.

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And yet it hasn't. So they've switched in their arguments on a daily basis. But does he also agree. With me? It's hard to.

14:57

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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It's hard to. Take from a party that. Cut state. School spending. Every year virtually.

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Every year virtually. They were in power. Almost. Well, I'm grateful to my noble

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Well, I'm grateful to my noble friend for the points that he makes, and I agree very much with what he's saying, as he knows we are saying, as he knows we are increasing per pupil funding to record amounts. I also think it's absolutely correct that we've heard many scare stories about this policy that that schools would close. I think since VAT was applied on the 1st of January, private schools have continued to open and close in line with historic trends. As I've said already, 49 private schools have closed, but 70 private schools have so far opened.

so far opened.

14:57

Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)

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As the minister knows, as the minister knows. Oh.

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Can I start by echoing the tributes to the noble Lord, Lord Ming of Campbell? It seems only Ming of Campbell? It seems only yesterday that he was with us. My Lords, I believe that taxing Lords, I believe that taxing education is a shabby policy, and we've seen some 50 schools close we've seen some 50 schools close since the VAT on private schools was introduced. This is another example of Labour attacking the sectors of Britain that are most successful, in this case, our private schools are this case, our private schools are very well regarded internationally and key to our country's academic and key to our country's academic successes.

Has the noble Lord. The minister learnt anything from this regrettable episode about how and

14:58

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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regrettable episode about how and where we tax? Yeah. I'm grateful to noble Lady for a question. What I've learnt from this episode is not to listen to scare stories from the party opposite. I'm sorry that she didn't listen to the figures that I gave when she talks about school closures. Yes, 49 schools have closed, but 70 private schools have opened. So obviously there's a net increase in the number of private schools in our country. There has historically been significant turnover within this sector, with around 75 private schools in the UK opening and closing each year, and the overall number of private schools remaining broadly stable.

14:59

Baroness Coussins (Crossbench)

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Could the.

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Could His Majesty's Government. Consider using. Some of the money it.

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Expects to get from this policy to reverse its. Recent decision to remove funding from state schools

14:59

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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remove funding from state schools for the International Baccalaureate? Yeah.

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Well, I don't specifically know about the specific policy the noble Lady is talking, but as I say, we Lady is talking, but as I say, we have significantly increased funding in the previous spending review in

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terms of per pupil funding to a new schools. I like to confirm that.

15:00

Lord Leigh of Hurley (Conservative)

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I like to confirm that. Without Brexit. His. put. VAT on private schools.

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VAT on private schools.

15:00

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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Yes. So. Although he could. Without without Brexit GDP would

15:00

Lord Naseby (Conservative)

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Without without Brexit GDP would be 4% higher so we wouldn't need to. And as a minister, no, as the minister knows.

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minister knows. There's very little. Boarding availability. In the state sector. And against.

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In the state sector. And against. That background, will the Majesty's Government look at understanding all Government look at understanding all the families who need boarding are probably heavily involved in exporting and helping our nation. And against that background, will he review whether the government can consider removing VAT on the boarding element when there really is no other choice than to go to the private sector?

15:00

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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I think the answer to that is no. VAT applies to private boarding fees as well as private tuition fees. At private schools, boarding is very often included as part of a single overall tuition fee. Not applying VAT to private boarding fees would open up significant risks of value shifting from school fees to

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boarding fees in order to avoid VAT. So don't question Baroness Ritchie.

15:01

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Labour)

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Ritchie. My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.

15:01

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Order Paper. My Lords, in the ten year plan, we announced. We would deliver the.

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First ever modern service. Framework for. Frailty and dementia. To reduce unwanted variation.

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To reduce unwanted variation. And narrow. Inequality in diagnosis and care for those living

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diagnosis and care for those living with dementia. It will set national standards and redirect NHS priorities to provide. The.

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Best care and support. Which will be essential, along with access to a timely and accurate diagnosis.

15:01

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Labour)

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timely and accurate diagnosis. My Lords, could I thank my Noble friend, the Minister, for the answer, but I would like to press answer, but I would like to press her a little further. According to Alzheimer's Research UK, 1 in 3 people in the UK living with dementia currently do not have a diagnosis, unlike other major. Unlike other major conditions such as heart disease or cancer, dementia does not have national waiting time targets. Therefore, I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister, what plans do the government have to introduce an 18 week referral to treatment target to give dementia and to give those people with dementia and their carers and conditions.

15:02

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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And so, in our. framework for frailty and dementia, what we are doing is engaging with a wide group of.

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Partners because we need to understand what should be included understand what should be included to ensure the best outcomes, and I hope my noble friend will welcome the fact that we're going to be considering what interventions should be supported to improve diagnosis waiting times, which are, diagnosis waiting times, which are, I would certainly agree, are too long in many areas. And in addition, we are considering all the options to help reduce variation, including reviewing metrics and targets.

As my noble friend refers to.

15:03

Lord Bethell (Conservative)

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noble friend refers to. My Lords. My Lords. I mean Nordisk. The results of incredibly Nordisk. The results of incredibly extensive clinical trials on the use of GLP one to treat dementia, particularly Alzheimer's disease. This is an incredibly exciting potential development. Could the Noble Minister please share with the House what the government is doing to prepare diagnosis for Alzheimer's disease, so that those who have Alzheimer's disease can be ready for this exciting treatment? this exciting treatment?

15:03

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Well, the noble Lord is right to identify what are exciting developments in this area and perhaps I could say that we are investing in dementia research across all areas and that includes causes, diagnosis as well as prevention, treatment, care and support, including for carers. So I think it's very important to identify the wide range. But in terms of preparation, we are ensuring that clinical trials are maximised and also reductions in waiting times do happen.

And also, as I said, through the modern service framework, we will be looking at the whole arrangements, which I think will give a very useful range of direction, which we do need to include the point. The noble Lord says.

15:04

Lord Weir of Ballyholme (Democratic Unionist Party)

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My knowledge, in light of other positive developments, such as the adopt and readout trials, which are concentrating on using blood tests as a device to ensure that that diagnosis is done more effectively. Can the government outline what steps they're taking to ensure the NHS is able to adopt such innovations, to ensure them that everyone has a right to an early and effective diagnosis?

15:05

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Well amongst. In addition to the points that I've already made, I would also add actually that the work through the Life Sciences plan will also be of great assistance in ensuring that we remove obstacles and we make that route that the noble Lord refers to be as quick as possible so that we can move from development to the people who actually do need this. So we are ensuring that we're reducing friction, and we're also optimising access and also uptake of new medicines.

And that includes speed of decisions and also implementation. I'm sure that will

15:07

Baroness Bull (Crossbench)

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be most welcome. For my Lords. Thank you. The noble Ladies question asks you. The noble Ladies question asks not just about access to care, but also quality of life. Is she aware of the growing body of evidence that creativity enhances the quality of life of those with dementia, but life of those with dementia, but also their carers, and provides an effective mechanism for interaction between the two? So can I ask what between the two? So can I ask what is her department doing to explore how creativity can be embedded as

15:07

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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how creativity can be embedded as part of the treatment to improve quality of life for those with dementia? Well, the noble Lady makes dementia? Well, the noble Lady makes a good point. I have personally been involved in a number of discussions about the role of creativity, and I about the role of creativity, and I certainly would acknowledge it and perhaps helpful to refer to the right care dementia scenario, which right care dementia scenario, which works through the whole of the pathway for those who have dementia, pathway for those who have dementia, not just about diagnosing, but also about looking at the best kind of about looking at the best kind of approaches to support people on their journey from that diagnosis

15:07

Baroness Burt of Solihull (Liberal Democrat)

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their journey from that diagnosis through to the rest of their life. I lost. One of the.

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Thank you, my Lords. As we know, Alzheimer's is the main form of a Alzheimer's is the main form of a number of types of dementia and early diagnosis allows for help to identify the specific type of dementia, leading to targeted dementia, leading to targeted treatment and access to support services which have been discussed services which have been discussed already this afternoon. But the expected time from someone presenting at a GP surgery and diagnosis has increased from 13 to diagnosis has increased from 13 to nearly 18 weeks.

My, this is going in the wrong direction. What will in the wrong direction. What will the government do to speed up this diagnosis so that more people can diagnosis so that more people can benefit from some of the treatments that the noble Lady has already

15:08

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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that the noble Lady has already referred to? Well, diagnosis is as the noble Lady says, absolutely crucial. And I would say that I feel our health system has somewhat struggled to support those who have got complex needs, including those with dementia. And that's why I would emphasise the role of the modern service framework in this area. It's the first time we've had one and would take that whole view that I think has been sorely lacking, and it's going to be informed by the Independent Commission on Social Care next year.

So we're not waiting for years. We are looking at at next year. But the final point I'd make is about the dementia diagnosis rate for patients aged 65 plus, and the government is committed to recovering that to the national ambition of 66.7. At the end of August, it was 66.1%.

15:09

The Earl of Effingham (Conservative)

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The evidence is clear across the board. Eating healthy and staying active helps brain health and the prevention of Alzheimer's. So is it not a huge concern to the government that more than half of the calories and average UK person in the UK eats and drinks come from ultra processed foods, and less than 25% of the adults in the age groups most prone to Alzheimer's are not meeting the chief medical officers. Guidelines for aerobic and muscle strengthening exercise.

15:09

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I think that the points, the valid points that the noble Lord raises actually refer to a whole range of health conditions, and particularly I referred to the struggle of our health service to support those with complex needs. And clearly at prevention, one of the pillars of the ten year plan at prevention of ill health is absolutely going to be crucial. And that will include good diet and that will include a good exercise and movement programme.

I can't comment on the specific link with dementia. There is so much more work to be done, which is why we are investing so much in terms of Research and Development.

15:10

Baroness Pitkeathley (Labour)

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That family members who.

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Look after those without timer's often a great stress to themselves of the House will no require respite care. That's one of the most valuable ways of helping them. Traditionally, they've looked to the nursing home sector to provide 1 or 2 week admissions to give them a break, perhaps a chance to attend a family event. Increasingly, they're finding these more difficult to obtain. Not only are they prohibitively expensive, but the nursing home sector is reluctant now

15:11

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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nursing home sector is reluctant now to offer short term placements. Well, I thank my noble friend for

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Well, I thank my noble friend for those very helpful. Although concerning observations, and would concerning observations, and would say that's why I very much look forward to the first phase and later phases. In terms of the Independent Commission into Adult Social Care, chaired by the noble Lady Baroness Casey, not least because it will inform the modern service framework which will have account of matters such as those that my noble friend raises.

15:11

Oral questions: Current state of the jobs market in the UK, and the implications for the economy

Fourth oral question what of will I beg leave to ask the question? Standing in my name on the Order Standing in my name on the Order Paper. My Lords, economic growth.

15:11

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Remains as government's number one mission, and boosting Labour market participation is central to achieving this. The UK jobs market continues to show resilience with high employment and.

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Falling inactivity. However, there. Is. More to do. Which is.

15:12

Lord Hunt of Wirral (Conservative)

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Why we are continuing with I Get Britain working strategy to drive forward the biggest reforms to employment support in a generation.

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employment support in a generation. My Lords, given that every Labour

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My Lords, given that every Labour government in the last century has left office with unemployment higher left office with unemployment higher than when they came in, will the noble Baroness the Minister now reconsider the government's opposition to those cross-party amendments achieved by substantial majorities in your Lordships' House to the Employment Rights Bill, which seek to protect jobs? In that way, she can prevent history repeating itself. Yes. Noble Lords.

15:12

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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I'm very fond of our traditions

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in the House of Lords, but we have a new one now which is on a monthly basis. Let's relitigate. The Employment Rights.

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The Employment Rights. Bill in the form of an oral question. Can I say to the. Look this to the noble Lord? And one of this to the noble Lord? And one of the reasons I don't like this question every month, as we end up having the kind of ding dong that is really more typical of the Commons. really more typical of the Commons. So let me try to answer it in a more in a more serious way without getting into scrapping about it. getting into scrapping about it.

This government has had to take some difficult decisions to strengthen the country's finances. However, the Employment Rights Bill was, we Employment Rights Bill was, we believe, the right choice. We've looked at the evidence. It is backed by academic and business voices as a driver of productivity. And if I driver of productivity. And if I would encourage the noble Lord to look carefully at the employment data, he will see a positive trajectory. Employment is up in, trajectory. Employment is up in, activity is down, wages are growing and vacancy levels remain healthy, which are clear signs of resilience which are clear signs of resilience in the Labour market.

But there are clear global headwinds. And where there is slack, one of the.

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Most important. Things for a government to do is to address supply side measures, because if times get tough, the

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because if times get tough, the people. And those. Farther from the Labour market. So we have a strategy as to how we support people, tackle the barriers and to work and make that work. My Lords, that is what we're trying to

15:13

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Labour)

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Lords, that is what we're trying to do. We're pushing forward and it is getting results. There. Given the emphasis that's now being put on Goldstar Vocational Qualifications, would my noble friend the Minister say what the government is doing to encourage local businesses to horizon scam with regard to future skills requirements and work with local educational institutions so that courses properly reflect the local jobs market and avoid the rather hit and miss approach when skills don't match the actual jobs that are on offer locally.

offer locally.

15:14

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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And the my Lords, I think my noble friend. to the recent announcement the government has made, that we are moving away from a target for university entrance and to a target, an ambition to have two thirds of young people by age 25 reaching level four and going on to have 10%, reaching level 4 or 5. One of the things we have in this country, we've traditionally done well on university degrees, but too few young people have less than four and five qualifications.

That kind of missing middle the whole back of productivity and stops people getting those higher technical jobs. The point she makes is crucial, which is horizon scanning. We know that by 2040, 2030 will need 900,000 more skilled workers in priority sectors, and two thirds of those are going to need qualifications about four and five level. So we are working very closely. DWP is working with business and indeed that local level local skills improvement plans are employed, led by employers working with Jobcentres and local partners.

But my Lords, the detail is coming. The government has a strategy for looking at post 16 education and skills and long term and all that will be coming out in a white paper on education and skills, last.

15:15

The Earl of Clancarty (Crossbench)

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Thing, my Lords, over 84,000 jobs have been lost since the last budget in the hospitality industry, an industry that should be growing, not contracting. I hope the Minister would agree. What is the government's assessment of why this is occurring in the hospitality industry, and how will they address this? Yeah. this? Yeah.

15:16

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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The one thing I will say is within hospitality, there are still 78,000 vacancies in accommodation and food service activities. That is unchanged on the quarter and is only 7000 below their pre-pandemic level. And well, of course, there are global headwinds across the economy, but the retail and hospitality, for example, are sectors where there has always been a lot of churn. And what we one of the things they need to do is to make sure they are the appropriate workers at the appropriate level.

So we have announced the roll out of hospitality swaps, pilots. So sector work Academy programmes launched in partnership with UK hospitality. We're spreading them to 26 new areas which are in need of jobs and opportunity, including 13 coastal towns just to Scarborough. And Blackpool, and will also be working with other key sectors as well. One of the challenges we have is to make sure that we match the skills the workers need for the jobs they are there. What a swap can do is get someone job ready, able to move into these jobs whenever they're there, and part of our job is there will always be vacancies.

We want to make sure everyone's got a chance of getting them and that's what we're focussed on.

15:17

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, the UK is experiencing a decline in payroll and employees, and a significant drop in graduate job opportunities, with listings for entry level graduate jobs at the lowest level for seven years. This doesn't really tie in with the wonderful statistics the noble Lady the minister has told us about. There is another level of statistics and they're not very good. And I wonder if the Minister could say what she's doing to improve those statistics in real terms.

Yeah.

15:17

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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There are, there are, there are a whole range is the noble Lord I'm sure is very aware. If he goes through the official statistics, he will see a wide range of different data, each of which tells us something slightly different. He's right about nudging at payroll data, but I'm absolutely right in. The employment rate in the UK is at record levels. That's a fact. It's from Nash. It's from national statistics. So one of the challenges for us is to make sure that even when times are tough, they come to the strategy to do three things.

We need to make sure we continue to work hard to develop growth and investment in our economy, to make sure it's working hard and the Labour market is functioning. We then need to make sure that it's an inclusive Labour market. In other words, those who are farthest from the Labour market get the skills they need to have a chance of getting the jobs so employers can have the workers there when they need them. And finally, we need to make sure every area of the country works.

There are some local Labour markets which have got 80% employment already. Others haven't. Our job is to target each of those three things and we're doing it. My Lords. Lords, my Lords, my Lords there I work for them, worrying figures showing that the number of working age people signing off work for sickness benefits has gone up for sickness benefits has gone up from 2000 to 5000 per day, per day, with a direct negative negative government. government.

15:18

Viscount Younger of Leckie (Conservative)

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Going to do now? Before the publication of the Timmins Review, and a reminder to the House that we have a whole year to wait, which will be one of inaction, inactivity and spiralling costs, will it not?

15:19

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Well, my Lords, given the levels of inactivity due to health of which the noble Lords government presided? That's a brave question, if I may say so, but let me answer it nonetheless. This government is absolutely not simply waiting for the review. The Timms Review is looking specifically at Pip, which, as I know the noble Lord knows is a benefit that applies in and out of work. What this government has done, as I have told the House before, is to look carefully at two things.

One is what are the what happens to people who are on benefit, and one of the difficult choices this House made and backed us in. It was making a decision to change the incentives so that for new people coming in, we would reduce by about half the extra amount of money you get on Universal Credit to make sure the incentives are there. But the second is to invest up to £1 billion over the scorecard in making sure we give people the support they need.

So people out there do want to get jobs, we have to help them. And finally, we have we invited Sir Charlie Mayfield to produce a report looking at employers. What can be done more to make employers, employers, for example, every time someone loses a job, it can be £8,000 a loss to the employer from lost productivity. We are investing in all three of those.

15:20

My Lord. My Lords.

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My lord, Palace, new.

15:20

Lord Vaux of Harrowden (Crossbench)

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Thing. We're here for crossbench. Well, the thank you. The noble Lady quite rightly.

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Lady quite rightly. Earlier mentioned young people and the importance of them, the opportunities them. But there does seem to be increasing evidence. That seem to be increasing evidence. That entry level opportunities are reducing. That is becoming more difficult for young people to take

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that all important first step into work. So could the noble Lady. Please.

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Explain why the government is still insisting on pushing through a change to employment law, that. Its own.

15:21

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Its own. Impact assessment says will actually make it harder for young people to find a job.

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OK. The government. They of young people, is the one in which the government is making in which the government is making significant investment. If the if the noble Lord is referring, which I suspect he is to employers, National

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Insurance now is not OK. There are. Over my Lords with the what the government has done in terms of government has done in terms of employment rights is we have to have a level playing field. However, one of the things that we are doing is of the things that we are doing is investing in supporting young people with the Youth Guarantee. We have said there should be young people who are intensively looking for who are intensively looking for work. There should be no fourth alternative education training allowed or a job and to put our money where their mouth is.

We have announced that we will say if somebody has been 18 months looking for a job on Universal Credit, then for a job on Universal Credit, then we will give them a guaranteed job. Young people should be out there at that age. There should be learning or earning or working. We'll make

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or earning or working. We'll make sure they can. Did the Minister appreciate that. Er opened by her Chief Whip

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Er opened by her Chief Whip asking for shorter answers? My Lords, that concludes oral

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My Lords, that concludes oral questions for today. And any member wishes to lead the chamber at this.

15:22

Private Notice Question: Ability to protect Parliament from Chinese espionage in light of the collapse of recent legal proceedings

protection of Parliament from espionage. Lord True. My Lords, I beg leave to ask a question of which I have given private notice. The I have given private notice. The question is as follows. To ask His Majesty's Government what assessment they have made of their ability to they have made of their ability to protect Parliament from Chinese espionage, in the light of the collapse of recent legal proceedings. Yeah.

15:23

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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My Lords, the UK government remains steadfast in its commitments to reducing the threat from foreign espionage targeting UK domestic institutions, and continues to drive cross-government work to respond to the threat through the Defending Democracy Task Force, the National Cyber Security Centre and the centre for the Protection on Critical National Infrastructure. Produce advice and guidance for members of both Houses of Parliament. MI5's National Protective Security Authority has today, 22 minutes ago launched a new guidance to protect the UK's democratic institutions from foreign interference.

15:23

Lord True (Conservative)

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My Lords, I welcome. I look at the action that she's recommended has mentioned. I'm sorry the Leader of the House is not in her place. To answer this question will enable Baroness agree that no step must be left unturned to safeguard the integrity of our Parliament from espionage by foreign state actors, and notably, the malign and relentless activity of China. My Lords, any suggestion of executive action or inaction that may have led to the collapse of these proceedings must be investigated thoroughly and unequivocally condemned.

So will the noble Baroness give the House a categorical assurance that if any evidence occurs of Chinese targeting of members of your Lordships' House past, present or future, she will press colleagues in government at the highest level to ensure that those involved will be brought to court and made to answer for their actions. No ifs, no buts, and certainly no secret quid pro quotes.

15:24

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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Yes.

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I thank the noble Lords for his question. He's absolutely right. Of course we would expect full prosecution for anybody that undertakes espionage for members of your Lordships' House, but also of anyone working in Parliament. My anyone working in Parliament. My Lords, I want to make it very clear that we are very disappointed at the CPS decision. This was made by them CPS decision. This was made by them as an independent body, and noble Lords will be aware that a statement is being made by the security is being made by the security officer, by the Security Minister this afternoon, which we will have the opportunity to discuss in later

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the opportunity to discuss in later in this week about the actions that this government is taking. The former director general of

15:25

Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)

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The former director general of the Security Service has warned the country that Chinese espionage has been carried out on an industrial scale, including seeking influence over Parliament but also on industry and education. It's why I and these benches warned that exempting China from the enhanced tier of the foreign influence Registration scheme under the National Security Act was a strategic mistake by the government. Not only that, but the government and with the Conservative Party support exempting government

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administration and public bodies in their entirety. From. The furlough scheme was a

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The furlough scheme was a strategic error. I wonder that on the 5th of June, will the Minister not agree with me that new guidance is fine, but it's hamstrung if the government and the official government and the official opposition continue their support for the exemption of the furlough scheme of the very areas where we

15:26

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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scheme of the very areas where we know China are seeking to influence.

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The noble Lord has consistently made these arguments. I just want to confirm, as has been said previously in your Lordships' House, that no decision has yet been made in relation to specifying China on the relation to specifying China on the enhanced share of the scheme. As noble Lords would expect, my officials continue to consider whether and how the enhanced here whether and how the enhanced here can be used to provide greater protection for areas where China and other countries pose significant threats.

Adding countries to the threats. Adding countries to the enhanced tier requires the consideration of a broad range of interests, and any decisions will be brought before Parliament in the

15:27

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brought before Parliament in the usual way. Hello! My God, oh my God. No doubt. The government's made.

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The government's made. The decision not to proceed with the prosecution was. Entirely that. Of the Director of Public

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Prosecutions. Will she acknowledge that in the light of the director's subsequent statement.

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statement. That was. Economical with the truth? While I.

15:27

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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While I. Have huge respect for the noble Lord, I absolutely do not. This was an independent decision made by the an independent decision made by the CPS. There was no ministerial involvement. There was no special adviser involvement. This was and the deputy national security adviser without interference gave three without interference gave three different witness statements to the CPS for their use. My Lords, this is not a matter of this of us not assisting the case. This is an independent matter for the CPS.

embassies.

15:27

Lord Watts (Labour)

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Have.

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Spies in them. But the larger the embassy, the more spies can fit in. Is it is it appropriate to have an embassy the size of the one that's being proposed for China?

15:28

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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Yeah. I never thought I'd be discussing real estate and espionage, but, my real estate and espionage, but, my Lords, we find ourselves in a strange set of circumstances. I thank my noble friend. But let me be clear, as he is very well aware, the decision about the future location of the Chinese embassy is a matter for the Secretary of State, for the Department for Local Government, Ministry of Housing and Local Government, and a decision will be brought forward in due course.

15:28

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)

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This is the government. country or not.

15:28

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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Noble Lords is famous for asking such straightforward and easy questions. The government is clear that we have that. Our relationship with China is complex. We are to compete, to challenge and cooperate. Choosing not to engage with China is no choice at all. But let's be clear the Chinese government has operated in such a way, or actually state agents have acted in such a way that is a potential threat to the United Kingdom. We consider we continue to have conversations and engage in a collaborative way with our Five Eyes partners to counter that challenge, and will continue to do so.

15:29

No ladies.

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It's could the minister confirmed

15:29

The Lord Bishop of Leeds (Bishops)

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It's could the minister confirmed that spying by the Chinese is not a new phenomenon, and it's been

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conducted under previous governments as well. The president makes a very

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The president makes a very important point and including with relation to this case. This case was

15:29

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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relation to this case. This case was conducted, was allegedly occurred under the last government. The role of China and other nations seeking to get information and access to members of your Lordships' House is nothing new.

15:30

Lord Pannick (Crossbench)

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Noble Lady said in. Answer to my Noble friend.

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Lord Butler. The decision not to. Continue the prosecution. Was entirely.

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Was entirely. A. Matter for the DPP. With no. Involvement whatsoever from any advisor or special adviser. Surely it is the role of the National Security Advisor to advise in relation to such a matter, and for that to be taken strongly into

15:30

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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account by the DPP? Yeah. As I have previously said, the

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As I have previously said, the Deputy National Security Advisor gave on behalf of the government, gave three different witness gave three different witness statements as requested by CPS and the DPP. We gave for and would continue to for all prosecutions evidence as available. It was a matter for the DPP to determine whether there was enough evidence to proceed, and in this matter they chose not to. chose not to.

15:31

Lord Grocott (Labour)

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I think that's my recall.

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Osborne, and. Amongst the many things. He said. And this was. Ten years ago.

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Ten years ago. In the dying days. Of. The Osborne Cameron government. That it was. We should.

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We should. make. It a golden decade for both our countries. And the aim was to make countries. And the aim was to make China the second largest trading partner for Britain. All parties are partner for Britain. All parties are entitled to change their policies, but does my Noble friend have any information as to when the

15:31

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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information as to when the Conservative Party made this 180 degrees shift? Yeah.

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I very much thank my noble friends for his question. Let me be clear about some of the interesting clear about some of the interesting comments in terms of where the opposition have been, that when Foreign Secretary, Right Honourable James Cleverly MP, who I have a huge amount of time for, called the decision to sum up China in one word as a threat quite impossible, impractical and most importantly, unwise. I think most interesting for your Lordships' House is the leader of the opposition.

When Business Secretary said, and I quote, we should not be describing China as a foe. My Lords, the winning government, the opposition had some interesting views on China. So did some of their ministers. On that basis, I think that we need to be about.

15:32

Lord Gove (Conservative)

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I'm very grateful to the noble Lady, the minister, for her answers. Is it the case that the witness statements of the Deputy National Security Advisor will be published? Is it the case that any communications between the National Security Advisor and the Deputy National Security Advisor relating to this case will be published? Is it the case that the National Security Advisor and the Deputy National Security Advisor will make themselves available to a committee of this House or to a joint committee in order to explain their decisions? And is it the case that the Attorney General, who has ministerial responsibility for the Crown Prosecution Service, will share information with this House about how that decision was reached? And if not, why not? And if not, why not?

15:33

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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That noble Lord invite? First of all, I'll say series of questions. That question time that typically is just one. But the noble Lords invites a series of questions, which I suggest that we discuss when we have the statement repeat in the other end. Because obviously, my noble, my honourable friend from the other place, the Security Minister will be on his feet about this very issue within the next two hours.

15:33

Lord Sikka (Labour)

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My Lord.

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Will the government and ownership of the UK infrastructure by. of the UK infrastructure by. Entities connected with the Chinese government? That kind of infiltration formed part.

15:33

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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infiltration formed part. Of the previous. Government privatisation policies. The noble privatisation policies. The noble Lord raises an interesting point, which has been discussed by Noble friend rather, which has been discussed many times in your Lordships House about the role of Chinese investment in our country. The reality is that we both consider there are there is an element of security threat, but they are also have the potential to compete, challenge and cooperate with China. My Lords, this is the second largest economy in our third largest trading partner.

We have to have a level of engagement. engagement.

15:34

Lord Laming (Crossbench)

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The noble Lady the Minister, agree that to the average layperson such as myself, it seems strange that the government can or the prosecution services can bring serious charges against two people. And for 18 months these charges remain and the court is convened to prosecute these charges. And then at the 11th hour, it is said they haven't sufficient evidence. To the strange.

15:34

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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Yeah. important point. Obviously, the 18 month delay is unfortunate, which is why we're trying to fix the court services going forward. With regards to the case made by noble Lord. Actually, there was the Rousseff case. There was a piece of case law about the Official Secrets Act, which which concerned the DPP, which is why additional information was taken then, which is why he has made the CPS has made the decision, from my understanding.

15:35

Lord Balfe (Conservative)

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Can I remind the Minister of the old Foreign Office dictum that we have no permanent friends, no permanent enemies, only permanent interests? It is our permanent interest not to fall out disastrously with the biggest country in the world. We have to live with them. We have to talk to them, and both sides have to realise that there are things that cannot be done. But for goodness sake, let's stop talking about enemies and start talking about cooperation.

talking about cooperation.

15:36

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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I hope the noble Lord has appreciated that I have said cooperate twice in the last 13 minutes. The noble Lord is right. I would, however, say that the first duty of government is our safety and security, and to provide that. So there is a balance here between making sure that the population in the United Kingdom is safe and secure, that your lordships are available to go about their work, unconcerned about the threat of espionage, while at the same time appreciating the international reality in a very uncertain world, that we need to make sure that we are engaging with who is our third biggest trading partner.

15:36

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)

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My thoughts will be.

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Is to have another go. To answer my question, does the government. Regard China as a threat to our

15:37

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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Regard China as a threat to our national security or not? Just for the noble Lord? I will

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Just for the noble Lord? I will read from my part. The government knows that China poses a series of threats to UK national security. We threats to UK national security. We have seen Chinese espionage and cyber attacks on our soil, and transnational repression of Hong Kongers. I think based on that my Lords, I can say yes.

15:37

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)

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It has as much as government had any discussions with the Crown Prosecution Service about the wording of the Official Secrets Act in light of the collapse of this case, and is it the government's understanding that the wording of the acts was a factor in the collapse of that case?

15:37

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

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The noble Lord raises a very important point, and one which I hope is going to be discussed this afternoon in the other place, that we can then have a conversation about later on today and later on this week.

15:37

When you see the background of the build up of what China is building to create war, the number of ships they're building.

15:37

Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Conservative)

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And every conceivable way of drones, without doubt. And I totally support the view that China is probably the most dangerous enemy that we have to deal with. And so

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for the future. I wasn't necessarily used the

15:38

Legislation: Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill - committee stage (day 6) - part one

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I wasn't necessarily used the word enemy. My Lords, as we have discussed and in response to earlier discussed and in response to earlier questions, it is clear that we are there areas where we both need to compete and challenge as well as cooperate with China, and we will

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continue to do so. Before we move into committee.

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Before we move into committee. Perhaps any noble Lords wishing to leave the chamber would like to do so now. Would. Would. Like. Would. Like. Thank Would. Like. Thank you Would. Like. Thank you very Would. Like. Thank you very much. Would. Like. Thank you very much. Oh.

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Oh. It's me again in committee on the Border security, Asylum and immigration. Bill hands nothing.

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But my Lords. I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into a committee upon the

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bill. The question is that the House do not again resolve itself into not again resolve itself into committee on the bill. As many as of that opinion, say 'content' the country not content. The contents country not content. The contents

15:40

Baroness Hamwee (Liberal Democrat)

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15:50

Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Conservative)

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16:01

Lord Dubs (Labour)

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16:08

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (Crossbench)

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To father.

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Lord, dance. And I was delighted to add my name to amendment 177. I have very little to add to the way in which he introduced the in which he introduced the amendment, but I do think that it is amendment, but I do think that it is important that the Minister should be clear to the Committee on what be clear to the Committee on what the present position on refugee family reunion actually is. As the family reunion actually is.

As the noble Lady Baroness Hamwee said, we saw the announcement on the 1st of saw the announcement on the 1st of September that the refugee family September that the refugee family reunion process had been paused, temporarily. Pause. As I understand temporarily. Pause. As I understand it, cases applications submitted before the 1st of September are before the 1st of September are being handled, and perhaps the minister could confirm that. But no more applications are being looked at until a review has taken place.

at until a review has taken place. At the time, on the 1st September, and the Home Secretary was very and the Home Secretary was very clear that this was a temporary pause. But on the 2nd of October, number ten announced that. In her forthcoming asylum policy reform, the Home Secretary will introduce a fundamental change to the rights provided to those granted asylum in the United Kingdom looking to end automatic family reunion rights. Looking to end family reunion, rights? That seems to me to indicate not a temporary pause, but something a bit permanent.

And to my mind, on the face of it, shocking. I don't know exactly what is meant by automatic in the number ten statement. But I guess, charitably, one could assume it simply means free. The one should no longer have the right to apply to bring in the lost child without an application fee, without attaching a check or a check. For jolly. Nearly 2000. Pounds. And under the present role. RFM cases, there is no cost attached.

There's no health surcharge and there's no application fee you could construe. And this is this is the good interpretation that the automatic in the number ten statement actually meant three. That people are going to have to pay to bring in the lost child. The opposite of what Lord dubs has so eloquently argued for. I, I don't want to say I hope that's explanation and the correct interpretation. But the alternative seems to be to be worse, that we're going to end the ability for people to bring in the lost child.

So what kind of country do we think we are? What Lord dubs is saying in his amendment is that. The lost relative who turns up in the transit camp in Libya or in Turkey, is not entitled to come to this country. And the bona fide. Refugee here, the member of the family who got here, whose case for asylum was established, who was granted protection status, is not alone to bring in the child, the wife, the cousin who got lost en route.

That's a shocking idea. And surely that cannot be what the number ten announcement on the 2nd of October meant. I strongly support Lord dubs amendment, but I and I would be with him in saying that if it is not brought now, it should be debated at report stage. I will be with him on that, but I don't know on what playing field this match taking place. It's what happened on the 2nd of October. All these amendments were drafted before the summer, before the Home Secretary paused the policy at the beginning of September, and number ten apparently killed the policy, or at least announced its modification.

Massive modification automatically depends what automatic means on the 2nd of October. And I think we need to know before report stage what the present position on the policy is. I, of course, support 165 and 166

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and 178, and I might surprise the noble Lords Lord Jackson by saying. That.

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That. I think 168 is a rather good idea

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I think 168 is a rather good idea if the I expect the Minister will say it's not necessary because all say it's not necessary because all satisfactory. Or thorough checks are carried out in any case. But if I'm carried out in any case. But if I'm wrong about that, I would be happy to support Lord Jackson on that. But I think before we go much further in this committee, we need to hear from the Minister what the real situation

16:14

Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Labour)

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16:20

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party)

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signed amendment. 166. Whereas several here. I could have. Supported because.

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I feel that they're common. Sense and I do. Feel how can this government. Be so heartless as to.

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Be so heartless as to. Not accept that families have to be together? Surely that is basic

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be together? Surely that is basic humanity. And why is it? Is this government. So happy to. Shed many. Many voters.

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Many voters. Simply. By hanging on to this right wing nonsense that asylum seekers are to blame for all the seekers are to blame for all the problems that we face in Britain, you know, responsible for shortage of housing, the damage to the NHS and no jobs. This is not the fault of asylum seekers. This is a fault of the previous government's policy of austerity that has. So damaged our processes here. The right wing gets this opportunity to pass the blame onto other people.

With this government, please get a backbone and stand up for the rights of people. people.

16:20

Baroness Butler-Sloss (Crossbench)

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16:26

Lord Paddick (Non-affiliated)

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amendments. But and I also apologise to the committee that my other to the committee that my other public commitments have not allowed me to participate in this bill today, but I could not let this today, but I could not let this opportunity pass to pay tribute to my friend, the noble lady Baroness my friend, the noble lady Baroness Hamwee, who has been a tireless campaigner on this issue of family reunification. And together with my friend the noble Lady Baroness friend the noble Lady Baroness Ludford, has been have been authors of a number of Private Member's Bill of a number of Private Member's Bill bills with content similar to bills with content similar to amendment 165, which I wish to speak in support of.

In my opinion, this has resulted in an amendment that has resulted in an amendment that has been revised, refined and honed to perfection as a result of the to perfection as a result of the extensive previous debates in this House. I only wish to make two House. I only wish to make two points if there are issues with excessive immigration. Asylum excessive immigration. Asylum seekers are only a very small proportion of that problem. And proportion of that problem. And secondly, the push factors, the so-called push push, the push factors prompting people to seek asylum are far greater than any hypothetical pull factor.

Something that I will or the minister may say. I agree with the noble and learned lady Baroness Lister sorry with the noble and learned lady in her comments about. There is no evidence to support this suggestion of pull factors. As the no. As the noble Lord, Lord Jackson makes general comments about small boat crossings and foreign criminals trying to illegally enter the country. This amendment 165 is not about undocumented migrants. It is about children who have already been given refugee status, who should be allowed to be reunited with their family members, perhaps in the absence of documentation, something that noble Lord mentions, family links, if necessary, could be established by means of a DNA test.

The noble Lady Baroness Hamwee has comprehensively and convincingly made the arguments in favour of this support.

16:27

Baroness Lawlor (Conservative)

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I endorse the noble Baroness Humphreys 166 would not merely oblige the Secretary of State to change the rules of the Immigration Act, 1971, section three two, but to accommodate her proposed amendment would extend the type of relatives and oblige the Secretary. After obliging the Secretary of State to change the rules so as well as those allowed under appendix F, which was, as you know, suspended in September 24th, pending review, I dependent children under 18 and partners of civil partners.

It would mean that others would be adopted to the list of those who could enter and remain in the UK, and parents, adoptive parents, unmarried partners, children as old as 25. In respect of persons, this is not in respect of the children amendments, because the people of this country have no appetite for increasing the scale of immigration and the numbers, but want the numbers cut, and have made that increasingly clear. I support my Noble friend Lord Jackson's amendments to 166 and moved by the noble Baroness Hamwee to which I have added my name one six 7 to 7 one.

And I'd like to associate myself from comments which suggest that the majority of people in this country who want immigration cut and controlled are of some extreme disposition. Time and again I hear references to the far right or the extreme right, or something else. Most of these people are ordinary people who have seen their communities torn apart very often and explain it on television perfectly, clearly and lucidly. They're not put up to anything that worried about their children, the worried about what's going on in their local hotels.

And they are not extreme people. If any of your lordships had a hotel beside them and had young children going to school, and problems arose with the, the, the people in that asylum hotel, I didn't think you Lordships

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would be considered extreme for raising the concern and questions. As we can. We have a voice, but

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As we can. We have a voice, but the people of our country won't have any voice to the next general election. And so I haven't said election. And so I haven't said that, and I'm sorry for slightly depressing, but the reasons am I want to support these amendments. want to support these amendments. It's not just 168, which should be a deterrent to foreign criminals deterrent to foreign criminals coming in, no. And 16171 to ensure coming in, no. And 16171 to ensure that inserted on the face of the bill is the aim of a secure securing bill is the aim of a secure securing the border.

But really, to kerb the numbers coming in rather than escalate them. We know that in the year ending June this year, 110,000 year ending June this year, 110,000 people claimed asylum. Actually, it was 108,138. And this is almost a 20% increase on last year, 18% up 20% increase on last year, 18% up and on the previous year, and a fivefold increase on the numbers fivefold increase on the numbers since 2022. Of the total 80 of this since 2022.

Of the total 80 of this total 110, 84,231 were main applicants, but 23,907 were dependents. The highest annual number of applications ever recorded except I think, one other. Yeah, what would the numbers be? Were amendment 166 to be accepted with someone's parents, and I'm talking about a person to whom refugee status has been granted, not a child. If someone's parents, adoptive parents, unmarried partners with no documentation to say that they were the stable spouse of the person who had been given status, the adopted siblings, or even other persons potentially covered under the noble Baronesses five e which my Noble friends amendment seeks to drop.

Who could apply, as well as an equally uncertain number of those who might wish to be considered or answered. The description of being an I quote necessary to the physical, emotional, psychological well-being of the person, or in order to avoid any risk of to such well being. To that question, how many would there be? The noble Baroness during our debate on her Private Member's Bill had no answer, so we do not know how many people potentially one, six, six would open the country to.

Fund my Noble friend Lord Jackson's amendments. The these additional categories other than the spouse of the person or the children dependent under 18 and I know that is suspended as the government is reviewing it, but as it would, would not be eligible. The unsustainable levels of immigration are threatening the stability of the settled political arrangements of the country, its cultural cohesion and its traditions, and the order and community and the ordered communities of this country.

The worries. This promise ample, and the fact the level of immigration does no service to those unfortunate people whose lives and liberty are indeed threatened under great danger in their home country, and who can come directly to the UK. Over centuries they have had a sympathetic hearing in this country, as have others seeking a better life. Long before the international conventions of the post-war period. Yes, of course, but.

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I think my noble friend and she's making a very compelling case. Just in response to will she agree with in response to will she agree with me that in response to the noble and learned Lady Lady Butler-Sloss, the context is that the last government context is that the last government did take an outward looking, internationalist approach and its safe routes to citizenship for safe routes to citizenship for Syrians, for Ukrainians and Hong Kong citizens was widely supported Kong citizens was widely supported across the world.

So to be fair, that is the context she she was that is the context she she was careful of praising the existing government that's been in power for 16 months, rather than the very

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16 months, rather than the very strong and positive record of the previous Conservative government. I thank you. Well.

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To. The conservatives as having carried on the very good. Practice.

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Practice. I thank my noble friend and the noble and learned Baroness for their noble and learned Baroness for their interventions. But what I was saying there is that the country has always there is that the country has always been sympathetic and fair and accommodated people fleeing, fleeing accommodated people fleeing, fleeing here when their lives or liberties here when their lives or liberties have been in danger. And. Look now, however, with mass global movement posing a threat to stability to Western democracies and not just Britain's but other Western European countries Italy, Germany and France, particularly the fonder countries of the European Union.

If we are to continue to give a sympathetic hair hearing to those who have a real claim, we must avoid extending the potential numbers so that in addition to children under 18 and a

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spouse. The whole extended family, plus anyone judged to matter to the person's psychological or other well-being and can come in. We do well-being and can come in. We do not have a right to defy the clear wishes of the people of this country who pay the bills for housing, for who pay the bills for housing, for the Home Office, asylum and Border Force officials. My noble friend has Force officials. My noble friend has referred to some of these costs, but the policing, the courts which are clogged, the appeals system, the clogged, the appeals system, the housing and subsistence of large family groups, we know that this family groups, we know that this costs money and indeed many individuals or families, when they individuals or families, when they leave a Home Office accommodation must be supported from the benefits must be supported from the benefits system.

In the first months of 2020 5th January to March, more than 4000 5th January to March, more than 4000 refugee households in England were recorded as homeless, meaning that either a single person or a family either a single person or a family unit had applied for support after leaving home. Office accommodation leaving home. Office accommodation figures. Similarly to the previous quarter. And with that sort of expanding family as proposed in 166, what would the housing bill then be? And the Accommodation and Benefit bill? So may I conclude by proposing that even if the government is tempted by the noble Baroness amendment 166, then my noble friend amendments one six 6 to 7 one should be accepted in order that the government can help bring the numbers down rather than stuck, and not stop and stop them escalating.

16:37

Lord Harper (Conservative)

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16:47

The Lord Bishop of Sheffield (Bishops)

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OK. Please.

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One to which I have put my name, and two to which the Right Reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Chelmsford, Prelate, the Bishop of Chelmsford, has put hers. As we've heard, she regrets she cannot be in her place today. I refer to 177 in the name of today. I refer to 177 in the name of the Lord. Lord dubs 178 in the name of the noble Baroness Baroness of the noble Baroness Baroness Hamwee and 203 K in the name of the noble Baroness Baroness Lister.

And my Lords, it is not just the Christian church which regards the family as more than a merely biological unit. It is the fundamental, God given building block of community life, the source of belonging and stability for of belonging and stability for children. The former Home Secretary recognised this when she wrote in 2020 when children lose their home, 2020 when children lose their home, their parents and their country through war or persecution, through war or persecution, reuniting with surviving family members elsewhere can be their only hope of rebuilding their lives.

But hope of rebuilding their lives. But they need a safe and legal route to do so. The truth is, families belong together. These amendments speak to that truth, my Lords. We must not keep families apart. No parent can keep families apart. No parent can be expected to build a meaningful new life, contribute to society, new life, contribute to society, establish roots in a new country, knowing their child is stranded elsewhere and no separated children should be prevented from reuniting with their parents.

We are told this bill partly seeks to stop the vile work of smugglers and traffickers. Yet 93% of those travelling safely via family reunion were women and children who may now be at the mercy of smugglers taking criminal advantage as a lawyer at Safe Passage puts it the lack of accessible alternatives means we are not able to compete on equal terms with smugglers who make promises to children to cross the channel within a few days and can actually deliver on those promises.

I do urge the noble Lord, the Minister, to ensure that when this bill is mature, it will provide dedicated arrangements to support refugee children who have been separated from their parents.

16:49

Baroness Ludford (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lord, I wish to support the amendments led by my Noble friend Baroness Hamwee and by the noble Lord Lord dubs, and with signatories from from others. We have debated refugee family reunion at numerous points in the last five years or so. My friend noble Lord Lord Paddick, recalls that I picked up the relay at one point from my noble friend Baroness Hamwee, and took a Private Member's Bill through this House successfully. Unfortunately, it didn't get successfully through the Other place, but I have been somewhat involved on this issue and feel strongly about it.

And just to pick up the words of the Reverend Pilot, the Bishop of Sheffield, he just spoke. He talked about family being the basis of belonging and stability. And I think that's important not only for the personal feelings of security and, and, and being able to thrive with within the family, but but also a practical issue about integration, which has been much talked about in in recent months. So on the one hand, people you know want to shout, why aren't why aren't immigrants properly integrated? And yet we want to pull the rug from under refugees by saying, you have no right to have family reunited with you, which would help you settle and get on in our society.

And there's obviously room for discussion about the scope of the amendments that I'm supporting and colleagues to the right have, have, have pulled various holes in them. And, you know, one can one can discuss some of those. But I must admit, I'm somewhat shocked. The noble Lord, Lord Jackson, whom he and I aren't always completely eye to eye, and other fora. And here and he he makes some reasonable suggestions in some of his amendments. But this one I do find.

That he wants to delete five e in my noble friends, amendment 166 he wants to delete. Having regard to issues like the importance of maintaining family unity, the best interests of a child, and any risk to the physical, emotional, psychological well-being of a person granted refugee status. So it no point is that as a noble Lord or dubs said, in the words of the Right Reverend Prelate, if the principle is important here about family unity. But I, I think also that the sort of social aspects are very important and there seems to be a lack of continuity and consistency in the policies of successive governments.

And like like others, I find pretty shocking what's happened in the last six weeks. And, you know, first, the Home Secretary paused family reunion and then, perhaps tellingly, number ten appears to have possibly may have been an interesting internal debate with the Home Secretary then said, actually, we're going to make permanent. It's not just a pause. We're going to eliminate family reunion as, as as. We know it. I must say, I did find there were some remarks which went to wider issues about immigration and asylum from noble Lords on the Conservative benches.

And I always find it a bit rich that. That complaints are made and there are valid issues about the control of migration, security, borders. No one denies that. But we mustn't forget that the big explosion in legal migration that took place after Brexit, with the noble Lord supported Brexit, and then we had far greater volumes than ever happened under EU free movement. Besides court eliminating the two way street allowed Brits to migrate within the EU. So I do think that a bit of non joined up thinking that that goes on there reference has been made to I think noble Baroness Lady Lawlor talked about how we do not have a right to deny public opinion and of course public opinion, which is perhaps in a rather inflamed state at the moment is important, but I read in, in a, in a briefing from the Safe.

Routes Coalition that recent polling undertaken by British by the organisation British Future found that 67% of the public support a controlled official route for refugee children to.

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Travel his safely, whose only remaining family. Are in the UK. Says two thirds of the public polled.

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the public polled. Support family reunion.

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For children who are stranded abroad, which is a large element of these proposed amendments. So, you these proposed amendments. So, you know, public opinion. You have to be know, public opinion. You have to be specific about what the public is

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specific about what the public is reacting to. So if our aim apparently the. Aim of some is, is to kerb the

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Aim of some is, is to kerb the numbers coming in, it depends what. Numbers you're you're talking about. In case of family reunion and child refugees. We're not just talking about compassion and talking about compassion and humanity and human rights or even the principle of family unity, but the principle of family unity, but you know the best interests of the child, the best interests of the people who will settle in this country. And we hope and they hope they will make a big contribution to they will make a big contribution to the success of this country.

And we can't expect them to do that if they are lonely and anxious and, and deprived of the support of their family. So I think we have to always remember that we're talking social practicalities here, as well as high principles of, of human rights.

16:56

Lord Sentamu (Crossbench)

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Yeah, yeah.

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Lords sort through this wonderful bill, I was going through Second bill, I was going through Second Reading of that, through all the committee meetings. And today I start out simply because I think I have been moved by the amendments have been moved by the amendments 177. Lord dubs, Lord Carr, Lord Bishop of Chelmsford and Baroness Bishop of Chelmsford and Baroness somewhere. Why am I giving this few somewhere. Why am I giving this few words? I think the speech of Lord dubs really put the finger on what dubs really put the finger on what the issue is.

It isn't just children, it's about family reunion children, it's about family reunion for asylum seeking children outside of the United Kingdom. He's narrowed of the United Kingdom. He's narrowed it up to such a way that it will be quite non right in our statute to quite non right in our statute to use it as an assurance instead of a statement of public policy, because statement of public policy, because if you use the statute as an assurance, you go to end up in that assurance, you go to end up in that wonderful or awful bill which went through Parliament, the Dangerous through Parliament, the Dangerous Dogs Act.

Do you remember? It intended to give assurance, but it was a very bad legislation, and it was repealed very quickly. So we don't want to be in that kind of assurance of the rising public opinion, which for some they see it as a court of public opinion. What is important is that a legislature should really be concerned about statement of public policy, and the law should express the reality. When I was Bishop of Stepney, there was a lady called Lasha.

She came from West Africa, came here as a student. She studied, got her degree and did very well. They left her job and she worked here for a number of years. She then became pregnant, had a son and they were now catching up with her, overstaying and then discovering she had a son who already actually has been registered as a British citizen. So the adjudicator said, what's going to happen is the son would rather British citizens should stay, but the mother should be sent back to East Africa.

And that was an ugly and ugly state matters. Hackney was up in arms. So was Islington and I. As Bishop of Stephanie, I wrote to the Prime Minister at the time was Sir John Major, and I said, at the moment I've got to leave to remain. I'm willing to exchange my leave to remain and give it to Alicia so that she can stay with her mother. And you know what happened? The Prime Minister, I was very quick to say that the decision is ridiculous.

Now we can understand what has gone on. What's happened? You shouldn't have been Earl of Stair. We didn't catch up with her. So the fault actually is on our side. So she stayed and there was such great rejoicing, both in Islington and. And Hackney. So children who are seeking asylum outside of the United Kingdom want to be reunited with their families that are here. I actually a thing common sense tells us this. Whatever the law in the future may do, should guarantee it, because that's the only way.

If you've given somebody asylum and their children are not united with them. And the edges, again, are very clear in that particular amendment, limited to those who are not 18 yet. And then let's see what happens. So for me, I am moved by Lord dubs, who has been a great campaigner for children. You've been known for actually working, and the same is true of the noble and learned Baroness Butlers, who has actually, in her work as a judge, dealt with a lot of family cases.

So she's speaking from wonderful experience of her knowledge. And again, I want to be a little dubs who say to the noble Lord the Minister, if it isn't to be decided today, this is a matter which cannot be rushed or kicked into the long grass. But at reports stage, the Minister may then have gathered ideas on how to respond to this marvellous amendment, but I support it.

17:01

Lord Empey (Ulster Unionist Party)

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17:09

Baroness Neuberger (Crossbench)

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My Lords. I haven't spoken in this particular bit of the debate, and particular bit of the debate, and indeed most of what I would have said has already been said. But there are three things I do wish to say. First of all, I do support amendment one, six, five, 167 and 203K and I would have added my name. Have I been able to at the time? Secondly, I may be one of the very few people within this House who actually has some family experience of child family reunion.

My mother came as an adult refugee to this country in 1937. Her brother was ten years younger and he was stuck in Germany, being treated abominably at school. After Kristallnacht in 1938, and my mother got commissioned to bring her 13 year old brother under family reunion rule, such as existed back then. That meant that he couldn't be a charge upon the state, but he was allowed to use such health services as there were. This is before the NHS and the people around his neighbours, her neighbours, the wider society who came into contact with him were on flinching.

She supported, and I believe that we live in the kind of society now as much as then, where people would believe that children who are stuck and in danger and have family here, who will support them and look after them, I think people will support that now just as much as then. And for that reason, I support these amendments that would ask the noble Lord, the Minister, whether he would be prepared to really tell us where we're going on family reunion more generally, because I think, to put it mildly, we're all a little confused.

And I want to say to the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, who I admire hugely, that his amendment 177 is a really beautifully crafted piece of legislation because I can't see how anybody could possibly object. anybody could possibly object.

17:11

Lord German (Liberal Democrat)

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Well, my Lords, this has been a really interesting set of speeches and debates around a cluster of amendments, which I would remind the House are largely about children and women. If you look at the background for the present system, of which all of all the visas granted since 2010, and that's 91% of them were for women and children, and children were the majority, 56% against 35% women. So just remember that we are looking at something very important towards the sort of society that we want and the sort of society we want people to integrate within.

If you believe that we need a controlled, humane, ordered and planned migration system, and if we're serious about solving the challenges that our borders, we've got to acknowledge that enforcement alone is not enough, because we have to pare control with compassion. And that is what is in the motion and the amendments put forward by by Noble friend Baroness Hamwee and persistently over a number of years. These amendments are comprehensive in trying to establish that compassion, which is part of the a full migration system.

One thing I would agree with Lord Empey about is that we must have a comprehensive system and a comprehensive system. Are those four things controlled, humane, order and planned? All four things are incredibly important and to concentrate, as this bill does, potentially on one aspect. Of course it is fine, but you need to bring together those which are also, you know, a part of the whole system which needs approaching, which is why safe routes are so important.

And when Family Reunion is about safe routes, when separation occurs due to conflict, it's essential that we uphold the principle that families belong together. The best interests of the child are a primary consideration in all decisions concerning family reunion, and we have to address the barriers which push vulnerable people towards smugglers when accessible legal routes are lacking. Families who are unable to reunite will often feel forced to find alternative, dangerous ways to reach their loved ones.

Restricting family reunion will not stop dangerous journeys. It will only push more desperate people into the arms of smugglers and the noble and learned Lord. Lady Butler-Sloss just now indicated in Calais that they were people, children seeking that family reunion. And we must be prepared to say that they were on a dangerous route, because that's what they were attempting, an irregular route. And surely we need to get this as part of a comprehensive system so that people, young people particularly, do not feel to be pushed into the arms of smugglers.

There are three things which I think in this legislation at this point, which are necessary in order to try and simplify the whole process. One of them is removing restrictive requirements. That means for those people who are unable to return to their country of origin of origin, meaning that family reunion is the only way they can exercise their right to family life. Yet, of course, we've got new financial and English language proposals which are being put forward by the government.

We'll come back to some very specific questions on the fundamental point which Lord Cao puts to the government. Minister to noble Lord the minister earlier on. We also have to facilitate visa access. We've had that debate here in this chamber around this bill, where people are having to make dangerous journeys simply to make the application process appropriate. And the fundamentally, of course, we must uphold children's rights and we must say the district, the deeply restrictive policy which places UK as an outlier in Europe.

Any solution to these problems, in the end, must occur between and between the countries who are our neighbours in Europe, because that's the solution we must all seek jointly. It's interesting that when my visit to Calais, the subway, the subprefecture of the Calais region, told us that every single person who they think would are going to attempt to cross the English Channel in a small boat, was offered the choice of seeking asylum in France. Some of them did, but it was available to them.

And so we got a concern ourselves with what it is

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