Lords Chamber

Tuesday 14th October 2025

(began 4 hours, 41 minutes ago)

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None Portrait Oral questions: The Jaguar Land Rover cyber attack
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The fourth oral question mark folks. standing in my name on the all day paper.
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None Portrait Business of the House
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My Lords, that concludes oral questions for today and before calling next business of any members wish to leave at this particular All All business All business in All business in the

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All business in the House, All business in the House, the All business in the House, the Lord Privy Seal. My Lords, I beg to move. The

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My Lords, I beg to move. The motion stands in in my name, on the order paper. My Lords, I would not normally remain on my feet are proposing that, but I understand the party opposite. The opposition have tabled amendment opposing the motion, so I thought it'd be helpful to your lordships House to be clear to your lordships House to be clear about what the motion does, what it doesn't do, and why it.

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Has been tabled. What this motion does is around the Planning and Infrastructure Bill, which, by Infrastructure Bill, which, by agreement between the parties, starts its report stage on the 20th starts its report stage on the 20th of October. That's next Monday, and the House will debate and decide amendments over four days. On two of amendments over four days. On two of those days, the government asks that the House considers the bill for 2 the House considers the bill for 2 to 3 hours before oral questions, starting at 11 a.m.

Notice of this starting at 11 a.m. Notice of this was given on the 17th of September. The planning bill is central to the government's plan to get Britain building again and deliver the economic growth. We need to drive up prosperity and improve living standards across the UK. Aims overwhelmingly backed by the electorate just last year, it's crucial this bill is swiftly put on the statute book to help us deliver the 1.5 million homes and fast tracks, the 150 planning decisions on major infrastructure projects will be pledged in the plan for change.

And my Lords, as we know, planning and infrastructure is a topic that attracts interests from all sides of the House. Many of us have spent many hours in this chamber debating planning reforms, and the committee stage of this bill was no exception. And I'm grateful to the official opposition and to the Liberal Democrats for the who worked with us to ensure that the committee stage was completed in the agreed time, including some very late sittings. So. And we appreciated that.

Now, my Lords, I know there can sometimes be what I would call noises off about scheduling and what is happening in your lordships House. I would call the Fury. The opposition offices, then opposition offices. At the time, I should acknowledge my noble friend, the noble Lord Kennedy, after we had agreed the government's proposals on the timing of the lander build, and the then Prime Minister proclaimed that Labour was the cause of the parliamentary delay, which wasn't true. We understand that. So I want to say clearly that at committee stage an agreement was reached and all sides adhered to that agreement.

And we are grateful and we appreciate that. Turning back to report stage, so far, there are 134 backbench and opposition amendments have been tabled to the Bill for report. And I understand from my noble friend, Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, there are at least ten issues. I think the official opposition want to tend to press further at report. The reason for tabling is motion is to simply ensure that the bill completes its report stage within the four days, and that on those four days, our deliberations and decisions can conclude at a reasonable time.

These two mornings provide an extra, up to an extra six hours of debate. It's a practical step on a single bill, reflecting the interest on the topic, and to ensure that we are able to effectively discuss and debate the amendments without sitting unduly late. My Lords, we do understand the difficulties it causes for members when a house sits very late and felt that this approach was the best interest of members across the House. What the motion doesn't do is permanently changed.

The sit in times of the house are set out in the companion to the Standing Orders. Now, I know a number of members are very supportive of such a change, but that can only happen through the settled will of this House. This motion is specifically for two Wednesdays, the 20th and the 2020 second and 29th of October. The motion doesn't give these benches any advantage. Now, I do not want to incur the wrath of my Chief Whip or cast any doubt on his booking process, but I have to say that I think that the numbers in your lordships House that the government might more easily be defeated at midday than at midnight.

As I said in my opening, this does not subvert the conventions of the House, but these are the house I have no desire to, as the opposition amendment says, systematically abandon our convention. I give the House that assurance. What the motion says is that the House may consider the bill before all questions. On two days in the next month, and then the 12 sitting days in October. The House will sit at our normal times. On all sitting days, all questions will be at an all time.

Amici. My Lords, this motion been brought forward to be helpful to your lordships House. There were questions raised with Mike noble from the Chief Whip from across the House, that it would be easier and better for the House to debate bills starting at an earlier time, rather than late in the later in the night. And in that spirit, this was brought forward to be helpful, and I hope all noble Lords will be willing to support what I think is a very pragmatic proposal to ensure proper and effective

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scrutiny of legislation. The question is that this motion

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The question is that this motion be agreed to amendment Lord through. Who? My Lords, can I thank the

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Who? My Lords, can I thank the noble Baroness, the leader, for the constructive tone in which she spoke? I fear we may not be able to reach agreement at the end, but I appreciate the way she addressed the matter, and I want to make one thing clear at the start, my Lords, that we do recognise on this side the importance the government attaches importance the government attaches to this Bill and indeed we actually support many of the measures in it, and we've absolutely no intention of blocking its passage to Royal assent.

And since we hear mutterings assent. And since we hear mutterings off stage about the OBR, I'll let me make that clear to them as well. make that clear to them as well. Although, in fact, the OBR says nothing about requiring royal assent. All it asks for is assent. All it asks for is consideration. Our policy announcements, it asks. The government will provide the OBR with government will provide the OBR with details of any proposed policy changes, so the OBR can incorporate changes, so the OBR can incorporate these in its forecast.

Announcements have been made, my Lord, so the OBR can incorporate them. And let's leave that canna aside, my Lords, the issue that I want to raise today is not delay, not the OBR, not even actually the budget, which many people are looking forward to with some foreboding. The reason that I've tabled this amendment, and it is unusual, is that it's time, I believe, to review how we may best conduct our affairs, and this was in some ways implicit in what the noble Baroness was saying.

No one, my Lords, wants late nights. Many do not want morning sittings which interfere not only with those who have business to conduct outside the House, but with our own select committees. Yet because of the sheer weight of legislation, often ill thought through, and this is not a novel matter, we are slipping into both morning sittings and late nights. Both of them. My Lords, we best conduct our affairs by agreement in usual channels based on what I hold the sacred constitutional principle that the King's government must be carried on where, if greater scrutiny than originally envisaged is required, then more latitude is given to the revising House by the executive and where, on the other hand, if the government has extra need and good cause to make progress, the other parties agree exceptionally to sit outside normal hours.

Now I believe profoundly. The best way to go forward for us is a reinforcement and restatement of our conventions. In a spirit of give and take between all sides. Now, my Lords, the constant insinuations outside that your lordships House obstructs government business. And we heard it was even said quite wrongly, I took the previous Prime Minister to task on that, as the noble Baroness will remember, not this House does. My Lords, is scrutinised legislation. So let's look at the planning bill so far.

The government asked us in usual channels, as the noble Baroness told us, if we could undertake to complete committee stage before the recess. As good faith partners. We agreed to that not actually without cost in sitting hours and not without criticism, I may say from some of my noble friends behind me and my Lords, we kept our word. We sat for 65 hours in committee, including with our agreement and morning sittings, and with our agreement going late, there was no Tory obstruction, quite the reverse.

There was cooperation, as the noble Baroness has acknowledged, taking all business. However, in September as a whole, we sat 27 hours, 27 hours, my Lords, in three weeks outside our customary sitting times. And that's not just on the planning bill, but the specific problem with the planning bill was not any obstruction by any party in this House. It's the bill is too long and it's still being rewritten. We heard there were 134 amendments from these parts of the House.

My Lords had just been 67 more slapped down by the government. Now, when it comes to report, the right way forward surely is to proceed in the same way as in committee by agreement. But this is not what has happened so far from pursuing compromise, the government has unilaterally tabled a motion requiring, before even consideration on report has begun, that the House, contrary to the specific firm guidance of the companion, must sit in the mornings. And then after doing that, they unleashed a storm of press releases declaring the bill would be rewritten.

And then, after the media were briefed, the House will want to be informed that scores of new amendments 67, as I said, were tabled to the bill, including major new powers for the Secretary of State to override local councils that refuse planning applications and depriving local communities of due process where their villages were to be flooded for new reservoirs. Now, my Lords, such far reaching measures in normal circumstances might well justify consideration under committee rules, not report rules.

And then, long after this briefing was given to the media, an explainer of the measures was finally sent out to your lordships at 11:07 a.m. This morning. My Lords, I do not think that's an appropriate way to treat Parliament. It was bad practice when a coalition or conservative government did it, and it's bad practice now. And my Lords, our members of the other place expected to scrutinise these far reaching measures that will so directly impact their constituents. The bill that was already too big is being made even bigger, and the House is being asked to break our conventions and sit early to consider material we haven't even seen until little more than hours ago.

There comes a point, my Lords, and I think we are near that point where we must decide if we wish to keep what are described as firm conventions in our companion. These are that we meet in the afternoon, which lately we have not always done. We met at 11 a.m. On a third of the Monday to Wednesdays in the September session, that we rise at ten, which lately we've rarely done. We went off to ten on all but one of the Mondays to Wednesdays, ends in September session, and three times after midnight.

Unacceptable. I agree that we rise at 7 a.m. On a Thursday, which lately we have not always done. Indeed, we didn't do so once in September, and that we rise at three on a Friday, which we did on only one Friday out of three in September. My Lords, that's what's happening. It's happening. And maybe some of your lordships hadn't noticed. Now, if we don't wish to keep to these firm conventions, which are designed to protect our hard working staff, my Lords, as much as our own members, then let that matter be considered by the Procedure Committee and if need be, considered again by the House.

Though the last time we discussed changing our hours, the House voted to keep them as they are. My Lords, it's a slippery slope indeed. If the government of the day and what the noble Baroness did not, emphasises that this motion was tabled without the consent of usual channels. It's a slippery slope indeed. If the government of the day is to alter the sitting hours of the house at its own whim. And, my Lords, I give notice that where this is not agreed in usual channels, we on this side will almost invariably resist it with all the attendant pain and time that will be involved.

But wherever it is asked for, I say with equal commitment. As we proved in committee with reasonable, it's asked for with reasonable notice and just cause. We will always consider it constructively, just as we did in committee on this Bill. My Lords, I think no one wishes this House to go down the road of the other place where the executive determines the timetable, and as much time is spent debating timing allocated to business as it is to business itself.

This occasion should be an unusual one and never become the norm. So I do ask the noble Baroness, the leader of the whole House, to keep to an approach of agreeing progress across usual channels. If she withdraws her motion, I will withdraw my amendment and I give her a firm undertaking in the eyes of the House, that we on this side will approach the report stage of this bill in the same constructive spirit as we did in committee agreement, not unilateral action by Lords is the only sensible way forward for the House on this Bill and all other matters.

And frankly, if it means an extra half or half or days consideration within our usual hours to review a bill that ministers boast is being rewritten is avoiding that one odd day scrutiny worth breaking the precious jewel of consensus, that is the mysterious secret of managing this revising chamber. I submit, my Lords, that it is not. And I asked noble Baroness to continue the normal course of compromise and not to press her motion. If not, I reserve the right to test the

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opinion of the House. We should be agreed to, since

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We should be agreed to, since when an amendment has been moved by Lord true to leave out all the words after that, and insert the words set after that, and insert the words set out on the order paper. The question I therefore have to put is that this amendment be agreed to.

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The Lords. As a member of the usual channels, I regret that we not reached an agreement, but I think it reached an agreement, but I think it has to be recognised by the House that every government asked for help that every government asked for help when the legislation programme is under pressure, and that is inevitable in a house where the business is unpredictable in terms business is unpredictable in terms of the pace that it takes. And I have to remind Lord true, that he have to remind Lord true, that he was responsible for the procurement bill where we had 350 amendments bill where we had 350 amendments tabled at the committee stage.

So there's a little whiff of hypocrisy here, I fear, in in this amendment. Yeah.

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Yeah. three. Good arguments for opposing this

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Good arguments for opposing this amendment. If we don't accept some flexibility, we're going to be here later and later at night. That's later and later at night. That's we're going to have more late session. So that's the reality. The latest sessions are not good for scrutiny. Not only should people our age be working late hours of the night, the reality is the reality is the reality is last night I was here at midnight for about 12 other peers in the chamber, scrutinising a very important bill.

And that's the reality of working late. And we also have and I accept Lord Trude mentioned this, but we do have a due care towards our staff and ourselves. Actually, in working these late hours that we've been doing, and we spend millions on security of this house, but we don't give much attention to the fact that people are leaving very late at night when public transport is no longer available. And we've got to show some flexibility. And obviously we have accepted this notion and we accept there's a quid pro quo that if we're going to meet early, then

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we finish at a reasonable time. And that's how the house should operate. Yeah. Lord some.

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Lord some. Of course. I don't represent a considered view of the whole of the crossbench, view of the whole of the crossbench, but I would make 1 or 2 points. The first point is, I do think that one of the things that Lord Chu said of the things that Lord Chu said about making sure that we reaffirm the various conventions that operate this House would be a good thing, this House would be a good thing, and I certainly would play my part in trying to deal with that, because in some ways, this is a mild breakdown of conventions.

The second point I'd make is a very simple one, point I'd make is a very simple one, and that is that the report stage of this bill was right sized to fit this bill was right sized to fit into four days before the 67 amendments appeared. And I was amendments appeared. And I was looking at the 67 amendments here. And they are quite major amendments. And one would expect, therefore, And one would expect, therefore, there to be additional time required for the proper consideration of those amendments, particularly in view of the fact they weren't ahead of committee stage or of the second reading, or even in the House of reading, or even in the House of Commons.

And so I do feel that there's a possible that when the there's a possible that when the usual channels get to talk about this thing again, that there may have to be some further time for this, or we are going to sit very, very late on at least a couple of those days that are coming up.

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And. The debate becomes more and more. Confusing as.

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Time goes by. It strikes at the. Heart of. The. Way we manage. This house, where we ask.

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This house, where we ask. The usual. Channels to meet regularly and come to agreements, and most of the time, that is exactly what is done to the advantage of us all. Even if to the advantage of us all. Even if some of us don't like the decisions that usual channels have taken, we accept them. Now. My Lords, what I accept them. Now. My Lords, what I do not understand in this case is why they have broken down so why they have broken down so catastrophically, particularly when my noble friend Lord Chu has explained the earlier stages of this

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explained the earlier stages of this bill. The opposition has worked very hard with the government. To be able.

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To be able. To deliver the bill on a timetable. Now, my Lords, I would timetable. Now, my Lords, I would understand if the end of the session was a few weeks away or a couple of months away, but we know, my Lords, at the end of the session is not going to happen for another six going to happen for another six months. There is no rush, there is no no reason why we have to sit in no no reason why we have to sit in the mornings in order to complete this, this bill.

Furthermore, my Lords, we are a part time house in the sense that we meet in the afternoons and evenings, but I also speaking as chairman of the Constitution Committee, the Constitution Committee of the House of Lords, meets on a Wednesday morning at 10:00, and it means that members, very distinguished senior members of the House who sit on that committee, will be unable to come and listen to the deliberations of what the noble Baroness, leader of the House, and my neighbour friend, all who have recognised is an extremely important Bill.

My Lords, I echo my neighbour friend in saying, wouldn't it be better if the noble Baroness were to make both of these emotions were to be withdrawn, so that realistic discussions could be taken by usual channels in order

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to come to an agreement? That's very. Yeah. Hi.

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Yeah. Hi. My Lords, I'll just. Make two very brief points.

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Make two very brief points. One perhaps. Specifically aimed at. Lord true and the other a more general point.

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general point. About the House and. Its procedures.

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procedures. The point I concerned about Lord. True is in the wording. Of his amendment, where he says the House should should continue. Normally to sit at the customary Normally to sit at the customary times. That's a long winded way of saying it should continue in the future, as it always has done in the future, as it always has done in the past, with no revision whatsoever. And I remind him if he. I'm sure he And I remind him if he.

I'm sure he hasn't forgotten this, but maybe remind some members of the House and maybe inform some newer members of the House that it's not so long ago the House that it's not so long ago when the customary times for meeting in this house involved Wednesday's in this house involved Wednesday's for private member's bills and Thursdays for government bills Thursdays for government bills starting at 3 p.m, we started on a Thursday. This is a house with people we hope coming from. All

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parts of the country. Didn't start the business of the

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Didn't start the business of the day until 3 p.m. It was a struggle to get that change through, but we got it through and I'm not aware of got it through and I'm not aware of anyone. Please stand up if I'm wrong on these benches or any other benches who thinks that we should revert to what were then the revert to what were then the customary times of sitting the other. The other point I want to other. The other point I want to make is about the procedures of the house.

The fundamental function of house. The fundamental function of this House is to scrutinise this House is to scrutinise legislation. That is what we do. If anyone is going to suggest to me anyone is going to suggest to me that we more effectively scrutinise at 1 a.m. In the morning than we do at 1 p.m. In the afternoon, then I ask them to reconsider the position that they've got. I watched day after day the attendance at this house. We know the figures.

We can house. We know the figures. We can look them up. We can check the voting figures when the house is voting figures when the house is sitting. Even at 930 at night. There's many a time when there are only about eight or 9 or 10 people in the House, two on the government frontbench, couple on the opposition front bench, someone in the chair, a couple of crossbenchers and maybe 1 or 2 with a particular interest in the bill that doesn't compare in terms that doesn't that doesn't compare.

Oh, sorry, I do apologise. It's an error I've made frequently in life. That was that was not uncommon at all to have that number of people in the House scrutinising. It is beyond argument that if we are looking at the detail of a Bill at a sensible time, that midday, one in the afternoon, more people will be in the house, more people will be taking part in the scrutiny of it, and if there are any votes, more people will take part.

It's a very simple, straightforward proposal from my noble friend the leader, and I really do hope the House has got the sense and the common sense that

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to pass it. Being very involved in the committee stage of this bill, and I

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committee stage of this bill, and I have a number of amendments before the House at report stage. I think the very. Fact that the noble lady, the

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Fact that the noble lady, the leader of the House. Has brought her motion before us today shows that. Four days is insufficient. Even

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Four days is insufficient. Even before the government amendments were tabled. I would like to support very much the amendment in the name very much the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord true, but also support the comments made by also support the comments made by the noble Lord, the Earl of new. The bill originally looked at nationally significant infrastructure projects relating largely to energy. It has now been extended in large measure now been extended in large measure to water and other projects.

The impact on the countryside, which I impact on the countryside, which I hold dear is going to be huge, and I believe we owe it to residents of believe we owe it to residents of country areas and rural areas to make sure that this bill is properly scrutinised, whatever time it takes, scrutinised, whatever time it takes, however many hours we have to sit,

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four days is not sufficient. My Lords, I just thank those who

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My Lords, I just thank those who contributed to this debate and I think it shows. First thing I say it shows is a desire from all across the house to properly and effectively scrutinise legislation. The point by the noble lady said the extra time needed. This is why the proposal was brought forward, to provide some of that extra times, the time of day where members perhaps at their best and spiciest. I certainly think I'm better at 11:00 and morning than I am at 11:00 at night.

Just to address a couple of points made by the noble Lord. True, he talked about the planning Bill being far too big. I do remind him, I think we had the same discussions when we had about the pub bill, which was significantly bigger than the planning bill. The planning bill is 111 clauses and six schedules. Lup had 223 clauses and 18 schedules, and a significant part was added to and I know he's mentioned this before, but the number of amendments that were made to the bill, which was some, was 700 reports stage alone was 700 Committee 466 report, which over 200 of those amendments were from the government.

And this bill just went on and on. And late night. I think that's what we were trying to provide the time required without having these late nights. He talked about press briefing. I've learned for a very long time, particularly as we get closer to party conference season, not to rely too much on press briefings, but to see what actually what amendments say. And I take the point of the noble Lord, Colonel. But of those 76 amendments, over half of them, I think over 35, are actually from discussions with the devolved administrations to give effect to legislative consent motions, etc.

So it's not an unusually large number of amendments to have. On the issue of early sitting. So far in this session, there have been 196 sitting days. We've sat early on nine of them. That's 5% of the days. And that was in response. The number of people wanting to contribute and the number of amendments, for example, on the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill, where there are large number of amendments, a number of members wanted to contribute, and we did that.

I have to say to the noble Lord that under the previous government, early sittings were used on bills, including on important bills, and he may be members. I've mentioned levelling up, levelling up report stage in September 23rd, and for the second reason of the legal migration bill and that committee earlier that year. Just a couple of examples. This isn't anything particularly unusual, and let's just address the elephant in the room. One of the reasons that we've had so much business with SAT so late in on longer hours is the number of amendments that have been tabled, which has been larger than usual, and also the preference of the opposition to have smaller groups of amendments to debate.

Now, both of those are entirely legitimate. I make no criticism of doing that, but just recognise that within the rights of members, it's within procedures. There's nothing untoward about it, but we have to recognise the reality that it does increase the time that is taken for discussions. My Lords, 67 amendments tabled. I say over half of them related to the devolved administrations tabled as usual week before the report stage starts. They were discussed with the opposition spokespeople on them.

I think the opposition have now asked for Keeley and schedule, which we pleased to provide for the most technical and most complex amendments. My Lords, I've been very clear. I have no intention of systematically abandoning, which I think the words in the Noble Lords motion, the conventions of the House. I think they're important. And he talks about further discussions. We'd welcome those discussions. I think it would be very helpful because moving forward, I think it's not conducive to good scrutiny. It's not conducive for members or staff to have so many late night sit ins and long sit ins, and those discussions can remain.

I will say to him, the additional time the required is provided for in this motion, but if he wants to have, and the other channels want to have further discussions, do, that would welcome those further discussions. My motion before us today is an enabling motion. If those discussions can reach an agreement in which it is not necessary to have earlier sit ins, then we would not use the what's in the motion, but we'd have that as a fallback if those discussions were not to conclude in a satisfactory way.

My Lord, we brought this forward as an offer to the House. It's pragmatic, it's sensible and to assist. And although there wasn't agreement on the use of channels, we'd much, much prefer to have that new channels. Noble Lord, the Chief Whip, Lord tenancy did have representations. So across the House. Who? Those who said we'd rather sit in the morning and have late nights. So I try to reflect that in this debate. But it is a matter for the House. If the House wants to sit late and members there's a large attendance here today, it's not quite so unusual for business.

The House motions. If members want to sit here fairly late, they are fully welcome and entitled to do so. That is a matter for the House, and I look forward to seeing a full house on those occasions. If that's the will of the House. But, my Lords, I've been clear that I think it might not benefit the government that scrutiny is 11 a.m. Think will probably be a bit more robust and thorough than it would be at 11 p.m, so we offer the option to the house that it's ultimately the house to decide.

We think it is helpful to the house. We can continue with discussions, and if we don't need that extra time because the noble Lord, the noble lady, can reach agreement with the Chief whip, then that would be great. But this is a noble emotion. It may be a fallback if discussions conclude satisfactorily, but, my Lords, I think we are responding to those requests that we want to be able to scrutinise legislation at a

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time when we can do our best work. Yeah.

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Well, my Lords, I'm grateful to those who've spoken, and I'm grateful to the noble Baroness, the grateful to the noble Baroness, the leader. I'd come to her, her remarks at the end. I don't ought to refer to alerts. I don't want to abuse the companion. So I'm not going to make companion. So I'm not going to make a long wind up. I did I wasn't sure what the Lord Stoneham was saying. The Liberal Democrats view was that The Liberal Democrats view was that morning sittings should become the norm.

If that's the case, this should be a matter for procedure should be a matter for procedure Committee. I agreed with what Lord King all said. I'm grateful for him. Picking up my point on reinforcing conventions, which I think Noble Baroness has also picked up, and he highlighted the fact, also highlighted the fact, also highlighted by my noble friend Baroness McIntosh, that, yes, 67 amendments have gone down. And this amendments have gone down. And this is this is new material, my Lords, and that must have an effect on the consideration in report, notwithstanding what the other place might think of it, my friend Lord Strathclyde made a point I made about the difficulty of morning sittings for the committees of your lordships House.

The Lord, Lord referred to the words customary rules in the amendment. These were suggested to me by the clerk for the customary times, so said to me by the clerks, rather than setting out all the existing times, which led to a very lengthy motion. I'm certainly not wanting to go back to the traditions of long ago, when we sometimes met on a Saturday. I have to say I'm grateful for the tone of the leader, and I believe that it may well be possible to reach, and it should be possible, as it was in committee on this bill, and should be possible on all bills.

So that's always my aspiration. The noble Baroness referred to the lower bill. We actually let that bill run for 15 days in committee, over which I think many people in the House got to know something about what my view about th Lords, the planning bill has never got. I hope my noble friend is not behind me. The fundamental point I wanted to do was I say, I hope this occasion will be an unusual occasion and not a usual occasion, because the usual place should be the usual channels.

I am confident, if we do have the kind of discussions that the noble Baroness has talked about, the normal spirit of amity between the noble Baron of the captain, the gentleman at Arms and my noble friend Baroness Williams, that we can find a way forward on this bill, which will also allow for the time that may be required by the new material. But, my Lords, I don't care particularly to negotiate with the sort of equivalent of a revolver on the table.

I was disappointed that the noble Baroness wouldn't withdraw her amendment. So I am going to test the opinion of the House. But I would like to make, because I think this it should be marked that this is a business motion which has gone down without the consent of the usual channels. This is a moment in the passage of this House from the way we conduct our business, towards where it might otherwise go in the way of ours. Now the old Baroness has given us an assurance.

She does not want to go in that direction. I accept her word. But I do believe, my Lords, that we should mark our displeasure at this. And I therefore wish to

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test the opinion of the House. The question is that the

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The question is that the amendment and name of Lord Truby agreed to. This means that the opinion will say content. That it is not content. Not content.
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None Portrait Division
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Not content. Who does appear to be a disagreement. We will settle it by a division. I will advise the House division. I will advise the House when the voting is open. My word, that was quick. Voting is now open. Clear the bar.

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For. The The Lords.

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Thank you very much. The question is that the motion of Lord two be is that the motion of Lord two be agreed to us, and I thought a point to say content, not content. It's to say content, not content. It's okay. Well, you know, we were going, but let me just remind you, the contents will go to the right by the throne and not contents to the left by the bar. For For your.

Time. Time. Yes, Time. Yes, yes. Time. Yes, yes. Okay. All All the I I saw I saw that.

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My Lords. The question is at the to.

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The The question The question was The question was it The question was it the The question was it the motion,

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The question was it the motion, the name of Lord truth be agreed to? There have voted content 211, not There have voted content 211, not content 261. Therefore the not content 261. Therefore the not contents have. My Lords to complete the business. The question is that the business. The question is that the original motion be agreed to so that the content is not we not that the content is not we not content the contents have it. Shall we take a little breather from the hurly burly to clear the benches?

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I.

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My My Lords

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My Lords My Lords Select My Lords Select Committee My Lords Select Committee on My Lords Select Committee on the terminally ill adults end of life
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Lords, it's a great pleasure to bring the Renter's Rights Bill back to the House of Lords to consider the amendments and reasons from the other place. I would like to start by thanking my colleague in the other place, the Housing Minister, for setting out the government's position on the amendments agreed by your lordships. As he outlined, the government made a clear manifesto commitment to the people to modernise the insecure and unjust private rented sector. The Renters Rights Bill delivers on this promise by empowering private renters with more rights, protection and greater security of tenure.

I would like to thank the noble Lords Lord Da Clifford, Lorcan Bailey and the noble Baroness, Lady Gwenda for their amendments in this group, beginning with the noble Lord, Lord, the Clifford's Amendment in Law, Amendment 11 B, which would allow landlords to require an additional deposit equivalent to 1 to 3 weeks rent as the condition of their consent to a tenant's request to keep a pet, a requirement for a further three weeks deposit would cost the average tenant in England over £900.

This is unaffordable for most tenants and would greatly exceed the average deposit deduction for pet damage of £300. While I truly appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord, Dr. Clifford has considered these affordability issues to a degree in his amendment in lieu by stating the additional deposit may be from 1 to 3 weeks at the landlord's reasonable discretion. I am afraid that we still cannot accept this amendment. In practice, this provision would be effectively the same as allowing landlords to request up to three weeks deposit, as the original amendment did.

Many landlords, of course, will charge the full amount, giving rise to the same affordability challenges as the original amendment. As outlined at Lords report, the government has existing powers under the Tenant Fees Act 2019, which will allow Parliament to require a larger deposit where a landlord has consented to the tenant having a pet. We will continue to keep this position under review following Royal Assent, and if there is clear evidence that pet damage is exceeding normal tenancy deposits, we do have the Tenant Fees Act power which would allow us to remedy this.

Turning now to Lords Amendment 39, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Brenda, introducing an annual reporting requirement on the quality of military accommodation. I would like to express my very grateful thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Brenda and Lady Thornhill for their continued engagement on this issue, and I would also like to extend my thanks to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord stirrup, for his tireless advocacy for service personnel and their families. I'm sure the whole House will agree that our armed service personnel and their families must live in safe and decent homes.

The government acknowledges the vital role that accommodation plays in their lives. We are determined to ensure that our personnel have access to safe, high quality accommodation that meets their needs and reflects the importance of their service to our nation. As I've previously outlined, the government is committed to driving up the standards of military accommodation. Further. Earlier this year, the Ministry of Defence announced an additional £1.5 billion investment in service family accommodation over the next five years above the committed.

And later this year, the government will publish a defence Housing Strategy, setting out clear renewal standards and further steps to improve the lived experience of our personnel. I welcome the amendment in law tabled by the noble Baroness, and I can confirm that the government supports this approach in principle. We have therefore tabled amendments 39 B and 39 C as amendments in Lo, which will introduce a statutory requirement for annual reporting on the extent to which service family accommodation meets the Decent Home Standard.

This amendment will place on a statutory basis, the commitments the Housing Minister made and the other place for greater transparency and accountability on the quality of military accommodation, alongside the government's wider actions that I've already highlighted, this will make a real difference in ensuring that service personnel and their families have the homes of the quality they deserve. I have discussed the government's amendment in low with the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill and Lady Grinder and with Gideon Moss MP, who I'm grateful for his strong advocacy on this issue.

In the other place, they've indicated their support and I hope noble Lords will also support this amendment. Finally, turning to Lords, Amendment 26 and 27, which were tabled by the noble Lord, Lord King of Ely and would require local authorities to meet the criminal rather than civil standard of proof when imposing penalties for rental discrimination and rental bidding breaches. I I'm very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord King, for his constructive engagement on this issue. We believe that local authorities will enforce these measures against the relevant standard approach effectively.

However, we understand the concerns from noble Lords that if this is not the case, there is a risk of an unsatisfactory decision. With that in mind, I can confirm the government will include in the relevant statutory guidance to local authorities advice that a local authority exercises a quasi judicial function when imposing a civil penalty, and should therefore be satisfied by credible, reliable and sufficient documentary or other evidence on the balance of probabilities, the person has breached a relevant requirement before imposing a penalty.

Moreover, the bill already gives a person against whom a local authority proposes to impose a penalty a right to make representations before a final decision is made, as well as the right to an appeal by way of rehearing against a penalty. I am pleased to have come to an agreement with the Noble Lords Lord King of Ely on this issue. I hope this is sufficient to address the concerns of noble Lords, and they will agree to the motion not to insist from the

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other place. The question is that motion A, b
16:21
Lord de Clifford Portrait Lord de Clifford (Crossbench)
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The question is that motion A, b agreed to a motion A one Lord. Two. Clifford.

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Clifford. Once I beg to move motion A1 as an amendment to motion A as inserted, and do propose amendment inserted, and do propose amendment 11 B in lieu. My Lords, firstly, I thank the know Baroness, the Minister, for her opening remarks and opening remarks. First, if my please note my interests in the register that I work for, and I am also a shareholder in a veterinary business that cares for many pets and also have the privilege of being a dog lover.

For many years. My updated amendment seeks to provide protection and reassurance to landlords and give tenants much more opportunity to fine a rental property that are our pets. The government quite rightly included in this bill the right of tenants to request landlords to allow pets, as currently there is a limited number of properties available. The government commenced commencement of the bill, wished to support landlords with a change with regards to the financial risk that pets may cause damage to property during a tenancy.

This proposed solution was an insurance policy which provided a level of cover. This proposal was supported by many housing and pet charities. Due to the risk profile of this type of cover, the insurance market was not could not provide the appropriate policies. As a result, the government withdrew this proposal from the bill. That risk still exists. The five weeks deposit is. It covers the risk tenants may cause damage to a property. Property. Housing a pet is therefore an additional risk and therefore asking for an extra amount of deposit is surely not unreasonable.

One of the government's objections is that, as already stated by the noble Baroness, the Minister was the increase in the deposit of rent, and I acknowledge that this does exist for some. Therefore, we have considered this in an updating and reducing the number of weeks deposit required as a minimum one week, and also an obligation on landlords to be reasonable when asking for the amount of deposit considered, the nature of the pets or number of pets. The government also said that the five week deposit will cover the damage of pets.

They use figures from the University of Huddersfield survey provided to the Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, saying 76% of landlords have no issue with pets. That leaves 24% of landlords with pet issues. That is not a small number. The summary does not define what those pet issues are. The report did quote that the average cost of a pet pets related pet damage was about £300 per tenancy. I believe the average weekly rent is about £300. As mentioned in the passage of this bill.

So one week's rent would cover the damage and maybe that a pet pet damages a property. A good tenant will repair it. Sadly, not all tenants are the same. So just just like we have a range of good and bad landlords. So if a tenant does have a pet that does cause some damage and is not repaired, is it not likely that if they if there are other repairs, they will not be repaired? That is what the five week deposit will cover, and an additional pet deposit could cover the pet damage.

There is good evidence that tenants with pets tend to stay longer, and many do take care of their problems to a high standard. One conclusion is, would be that these tenants do stay in certain properties for longer, due to the lack of supply. We will turn to rental property, which is which, happily, this bill wishes to address, but we need to support landlords with this change. By supporting this amendment, we will be supporting landlords and make the process of more landlords accepting pets without obligation.

So objection far greater reality so that they have the protection of additional deposit. It will hopefully be also encourage existing landlords to stay in the private rental sector market and potentially lunas landlords to choose long term tenancies over short term holiday and Airbnb lengths. And so maintaining supply of rental properties. A table, a table, a table in the university report asks landlords whether different policies or incentives would encourage them to consider pet owners as a tenant in the future.

53% are said having a tenant with insurance cover for a pet damage would help. Sadly, this is not available. 51% allow said allowing lounge to charge for deep clean would help. This would cover and be covered by a pet deposit. 43% said allowing landlords to allow to be allowed to hold a pet would help them. And this is what this amendment does. Pets provide so much to us human beings in terms of companionship, health benefits and providing friendship and support at difficult times.

When owning a pet, we have a responsibility to maintain their welfare and welfare and health. This is both a time commitment as well as a financial financial commitment for the owners. Therefore, if someone is possible, someone is a possible tenant with a pet. An additional deposit for a property should be thought of as part of that financial commitment. I hope my revised amendment will hopefully find some support with your lordships today, and we can find a balance between landlords and tenants to increase the supply of pet friendly accommodation.

I beg to move.

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The original question was that motion A they agreed to. Since when motion A one has been moved as an motion A one has been moved as an amendment to motion A and it the end insert the words printed on the insert the words printed on the marshal list. The question therefore
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Baroness Grender Portrait Baroness Grender (Liberal Democrat)
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is that motion A1 be agreed to. And my Lords, I rise in

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And my Lords, I rise in particular to welcome amendments 39 B and C on behalf of myself and our B and C on behalf of myself and our most able leader on this bill team, my noble friend Baroness Thornhill, we are absolutely delighted that military housing is going to be held

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to the same legal standard. As the private renters in this

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As the private renters in this bill. Putting this on a statutory footing fulfils the campaigning, the footing fulfils the campaigning, the wishes of this government and the campaigning work by some of my colleagues, particularly in the colleagues, particularly in the Commons MPs Gideon Amos and Helen Morgan, to name but a few. And I Morgan, to name but a few. And I would like particularly to thank Adam Bull in our committee, in our whips office, who's been working very hard on this over the recess.

In particular, I want to thank the noble lady, the minister, Baroness noble lady, the minister, Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, for her her time and patience in discussing this time and patience in discussing this issue and in us getting to this very issue and in us getting to this very happy mutual agreement. And also Minister Penicuik for the time that he spared, and the noble Lord Coker he spared, and the noble Lord Coker as well, who has spent time on this, the noble Lords Beste and Stirrup the noble Lords Beste and Stirrup have provided wisdom, backing and advice, and I am grateful to both of advice, and I am grateful to both of them for this as well.

At the heart of this issue are those who give the ultimate sacrifice in the military and the families who live with them and stand by them. Let us hope, as a result of this change, that the appalling conditions that they have endured so far will change and will be a thing of the past. And we are enormously grateful for this change and looking forward to seeing it introduced. With regard to the noble Clifford, we have consistently not supported this, although we do recognise the eloquence of his arguments on this area.

But we continue to argue that this will place undue financial pressure on tenants, and could be exploited by rogue landlords to impose excessive deposit charges. We believe that tenants and owner occupiers and social tenants should be viewed on a much more equal footing, and this speaks to some of the speeches that both the noble Lady Thornhill and I have made on that. And therefore we feel we cannot support that. But I in particular, we're absolutely delighted with the amendment by the

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government, and we look forward to its implementation. Yeah. My Lords. I.

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I. Would like to speak to amendment. 11. Be. In the name. Of the noble. Lord.
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Lord Black of Brentwood Portrait Lord Black of Brentwood (Conservative)
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Lord to. Clifford, which, as we have heard, seeks to allow landlords to request a pet deposit equivalent of request a pet deposit equivalent of up to three weeks of rent. Like many of the charities involved in the animal welfare sector who have campaigned tirelessly on this issue,

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I'm disappointed we're having to return to this subject after it was clearly rejected in the other place. And.

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Has been the subject of intense discussion. Charities including. Battersea Cats Protection and the Dogs Trust strongly support the

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Dogs Trust strongly support the government's position. And so do I. The reason for that is clear. Such an obligation.

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Such an obligation. Would defeat the very purpose of the pet provisions in this carefully balanced bill, which is designed to balanced bill, which is designed to make pet ownership easier for tenants and remove the inequity that owning a pet is the preserve of the increasingly small number of people who can afford to own their own who can afford to own their own home. And I declare my own interests as the owner of a cat. And let us be clear, as I say, that committee for clear, as I say, that committee for tenants seeking to have a single pet in rented accommodation there is likely to be only a very minimal, if likely to be only a very minimal, if any, damage, and the standard security deposit is more than sufficient to cover any damage sufficient to cover any damage beyond standard wear and tear.

As a survey conducted by YouGov on behalf of the Dogs Trust and Cats of the Dogs Trust and Cats Protection in 2021 concluded and in rare circumstances. My Lords, where damage caused by a pet may exceed the value of existing security. Deposit measures already exist for landlords to seek additional compensation from the tenant. As such, charging an additional pet deposit is unnecessarily and wholly disproportionate, and this costly proposal would put the wonderful aspiration of pet ownership beyond the reach of many.

My Lords allow and also require a pet deposit equivalent to three up to three weeks rent could see tenants forced to find up to an additional £1,500 for a one bedroom flat in high rent

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areas such as London, a. Figure. Which is unaffordable for many.

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Which is unaffordable for many. It would also introduce an unfair geographical disparity with those living in cities where rents are living in cities where rents are higher being far worse off compared to. Living those living in rural to. Living those living in rural areas. Another problem, my Lords, with the addition of a pet deposit is the potential lack of transparency regarding what a landlord decides should constitute pet damage and what constitutes the pet damage and what constitutes the type of damage which would otherwise be funded by the security standard security deposit.

Many landlords, I security deposit. Many landlords, I fear, would see this as an extra fund to provide an option to withhold more money simply for withhold more money simply for standard wear and tear. My Lords, the pet provisions in this bill have the pet provisions in this bill have been thoroughly and energetically debated both inside and outside this House. It's clear from all those House. It's clear from all those discussions that the standard secure deposit is more than adequate to cover any damage caused by a pet, and that this amendment is completely unnecessary.

Its only result would be to neuter one of the result would be to neuter one of the key planks of this vital legislation, destroying the hopes of legislation, destroying the hopes of so many tenants who dream of having a pet in their home. Today, my Lords, we should make that dream a reality. And I'm afraid if the noble Lord moves his amendments, I should be voting against it. be voting against it.
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook Portrait Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Conservative)
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My Lords, I will speak briefly on two matters. First of all, the Ministry of Defence accommodation and the pet deposits. Firstly on the Ministry of Defence housing. We thank the government for listening and engaging so constructively on this issue. The concerns raised have been recognised and the government's response has been both proportionate and pragmatic on these benches. As ever, we strongly support our service personnel and the vital contribution they make to us and our country, and we are happy to support the government's motion.

My Lords, turning to the issue of pets and I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord, to Clifford on an issue that has filled my inbox. And I know that of my noble friend Lord James Jameson's as well. When the bill was first introduced, the government rightly sought to balance the cost of pet related damage through the requirement of pet insurance. But as, as we pointed out repeatedly, and as the noble Earl, Lord Conall emphasised, no such insurance product was actually existing.

Once the government accepted that fact, the requirement was removed, but nothing, my Lords, was put in its place. This amendment restores that missing balance. It offers a fair and proportionate settlement, ensuring renters can keep pets in their homes, while landlords have a reassurance that any pet related damage can be covered. And if there is no damage, it will be returned. Research by Property Marque recently shows that 85.3% of landlords and agents have incurred damage to their properties by pets.

Yet more staggeringly, staggeringly by laws, 57% of landlords and agents report being unable to recoup pet related damage costs, allowing an additional deposit of 1 to 3 weeks. Rent is therefore I, we believe, a reasonable and balanced step, one that protects tenants rights while recognising the realities faced by landlords, particularly small landlords. My Lords, landlords are not always wealthy investors. Many, as we have said many times in this bill, are ordinary people for whom second property represents their pensions or their life savings.

If a property requires major cleaning or repair. Those costs can be prohibitive. And in some cases, my Lords could drive properties out of the rental market altogether. So therefore, my Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord to Clifford chooses to test the opinion of the House once again, we on these benches will support him. Finally, my Lords, I just wanted to thank the government for their constructive engagement of the assurances given both in writing and from the despatch box on the standard of proof.

Those commitments provide a much needed clarity and reassurance on how this will be applied in practice, and we are grateful for the Minister's response on these. My Lords, taken together, these measures improve. We believe the Bill make it fairer, more workable and more balanced for both tenants and landlords alike.
16:37
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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My Lords, I thank all noble Lords have spoken in this section of the debate and I thank again the noble Lord Clifford and Baroness Gwenda for their very positive approaches throughout the course of the Bill. And can I thank the noble All Black for his support? And I'll come on to some of the points that he raised in a moment. And, Baroness Scott, I do think the responses to this part of the debate this afternoon are pragmatic.

I we can't accept Lord Clifford's amendment, I'm afraid. He did question about the government's. We didn't question. He mentioned the government's change in position on pet insurance. We did have an extensive debate, both in your lordships House and in the other place. And we did draw on the expertise of peers such as the noble Lord, the Earl of can or Lord Clifford, and Lord trees. And the government consulted further with the Association of British Insurers and the British Insurance Brokers Association.

And it was following that engagement that we concluded that we were no longer confident the insurance and underwriting sector would have sufficient or suitable products available for either landlords or tenants to purchase. In view of that, we didn't want to leave tenants in a position whereby they couldn't comply with conditions set as part of the pet consent granted by their landlord, as that would mean they weren't able to have a pet, and that would defeat the object of having pet provisions within the bill.

I'm pleased to say that as the noble Lord black mentioned, Battersea cats and Dogs Ham have indicated their support for the government's approach, including the approach of not accepting this amendment. And I received just today a letter of very strong support from the Dogs Trust and the Cats Protection League, and another letter email from shelter expressing their support and hoping that this amendment would not be accepted because they didn't feel that it's in the interest of tenants or of their pets.

We so we did use the information from the University of Huddersfield as part of our consideration. But I think it's important to say that, as we noted, as I noted in my opening speech, we will continue to keep this under review. And we do have the powers to allow for higher deposits for pets if needed. And we are satisfied at the moment that the existing requirement for five weeks deposit for typical tenancies is sufficient to cover the risk of any increased damage by pet ownership.

And I know some landlords are concerned about potential damage that may be caused by pets. Landlords can deduct damaged costs from the normal tenancy deposit as they do now, and in rare cases, for example, where the deposit didn't cover the cost of the damage, the landlord could take the tenant to the small claims court and bring a money claim to recoup any outstanding amounts in line with the wider rules in the sector. We don't want to put tenants in a position where they can't have a pet, because there are no suitable insurance products available, or because they can't afford the additional cost of a deposit.

So we will keep this matter under review, and I hope the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment.

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I think your lordships, your thoughts and speeches, and also I'm pleased and support Baroness Glenda's change and amendment of
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Lord de Clifford Portrait Lord de Clifford (Crossbench)
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Glenda's change and amendment of being accepted by the government, and you haven't changed your position on that until support this. And I understand that that comments regarding that the deposit scheme referring to Lord Black of Brentwood. I'm just as passionate about allowing more people to have pets. And this what I'm trying to do with this amendment is to try and encourage landlords not to leave the sector by having pets. I would love more people to have pets and I realise how important it is, but I do think there's a balance to be struck here with, with this, trying to reassure landlords because they don't accept pets at the present time, there are very few properties that are on the market for, and this is a trying to create a balance between the between that and I appreciate there are some tenants who will struggle to find that deposit, but I believe by having this in place, more landlords will be willing to accept pets and there will be less disruption between landlords and tenants when they ask to have that pets.

And on the basis of that, I would like to test the opinion on the House on on my motion.

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The question is that motion A1 be agreed to as many as that opinion agreed to as many as that opinion will say content. Contrary, not content. And I think the not

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contents have it. I and of course then. The question will then be decided

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The question will then be decided by a division. I will inform the
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by a division. I will inform the House when opening the vote. Voting

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The.

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The.

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The. For For that. Yes. Yes.

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I. Yes, yes. I. For you. My Lords. No, no.

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The question is the amendment be agreed to? As many as that opinion will say content. That's.

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That's. Contrary not content. The contents will go to the right by the contents will go to the right by the thrown, the not contents to the left

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So.

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So. So. We So. We want. All. All. The.

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In In my In my notes.

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In my notes. Order. I think. The question is that the amendment be agreed to. amendment be agreed to. amendment be agreed to. amendment be agreed to.

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My My Lords My Lords that

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My Lords that have My Lords that have voted My Lords that have voted contents

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My Lords that have voted contents 192 not. Contents 239. So the not contents have it.

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My

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My lords, My lords, before My lords, before we My lords, before we turn My lords, before we turn to motion B, may I remind your lordships that during a division in particular, I need clear sight of the clock at all times. It is therefore strictly forbidden for any appear to move between the table and me, so that I cannot see the clerk. We now turn to motion B, Baroness Taylor of Stevenage. I apologise.

Yes. The question is that motion A be agreed to? As many as that opinion will say content country not content to the contents have it. My apologies my Lords. And we now turn to motion B Baroness Taylor of Stevenage.
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Oh my lord. So I beg to move.

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Motion B that this House do not insist on its amendment 14 and to agree with the Commons in their amendment 14 aye in lieu with the leave of the House. I will also leave of the House. I will also speak to motion C, C1, D and d1, speak to motion C, C1, D and d1, which are grouped together. By my Lords. I would like to thank the noble Lords, Lord Cromwell and Lord young for their amendments relating young for their amendments relating to the no restriction.

Turning first to Lords Amendment 18, tabled by the to Lords Amendment 18, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, which is intended to reduce the no let period to six months, where the property to six months, where the property has been demonstrably on the market, and no suitable offers received for that period. The noble Order and I, that period. The noble Order and I, alongside the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, have discussed this amendment at length, and I would again like to thank them for their again like to thank them for their continued engagement on this.

The government understands there may be situations where landlords genuinely intend to sell their property but cannot do so. However, the re cannot do so. However, the re letting and remarketing restriction is one of the strongest safeguards we have in this bill. I know many we have in this bill. I know many noble Lords agree with the restriction in principle, but disagree with the length of the restriction. The government believes restriction. The government believes that the 12 month time period will make it unprofitable for a landlord to abuse this ground.

It is vitally important that these strong protections for tenants remain in place, and I want to be clear about the government's position and commitment. This is shared by members in the other place, and today I was pleased to receive strong support from shelter, citing research from the Nationwide Foundation that 1.5 landlord sale evictions do not result in sales. Turning to Lords Amendment 19, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, which would exempt shared owners from the releasing and remarketing restriction and other important restrictions.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord young for taking the time to meet, particularly the time during recess when he was kind enough to have meetings to discuss this important issue and for his continued support for shared owners. And I would also like to thank him for his amendments in law amendments 19 B, 19 C and 19 D. The government is very sympathetic to shared owners experience in building safety issues and the particular challenges that they are facing. We've already taken a number of steps outside of this bill to provide greater clarity for shared owners on what flexibilities and support they can expect from providers.

These include new commitments in the update to the government's Remediation Acceleration Plan, published in July. The Noble Lords amendments in law acknowledge the unique circumstances in which shared owners operate, whilst not compromising on the core aim of the bill to improve security of tenure in the sector. The government is delighted to support his amendments and we encourage the House to agree to them. We will continue to work with the noble Lord as the Bill is

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implemented. I beg to move. The question is that motion B be

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The question is that motion B be agreed to? As amended? That opinion was taken. Oh.

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Shall I be up, Matt? Yes, yes. And that's correct. Yes. Forgive me.

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Forgive me. My Lords. I'll address. Amendment 18, motion. C1 in place.

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C1 in place. Of motion. C. To recap. Very briefly on. The. Substance of.

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Substance of. The amendment. The bill. Punishes any landlord who serves. Notice on a. Tenant.

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Tenant. Because the landlord is selling. The property. But the property fails to sell.
16:58
Lord Cromwell Portrait Lord Cromwell (Crossbench)
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But the property fails to sell. Forgive me for interrupting, but we were on B, and I was under the impression that you wanted to speak impression that you wanted to speak on B, but it appears that you have

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gone to C. Am I correct? My mistake? My mistake? I will sit down and restart later.

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sit down and restart later. They are the same. Then it's not

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Pregnancy? Well, I think. We could set this to music if you

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We could set this to music if you wish. Now where did I get to? Oh, wish. Now where did I get to? Oh, yes. Not again I won't, I won't start again now, says two patient, but I will. I will start halfway but I will. I will start halfway through the bill does punish any landlord who serves notice on a tenant because the landlord is tenant because the landlord is selling the property, but then the property fails to sell. They are not allowed to relate it for a period of allowed to relate it for a period of 12 months.

The property must stand empty and rented for that 12 months. empty and rented for that 12 months. The amendment does not quibble with that punitive intention of the bill.

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that punitive intention of the bill. It accepts that in order to prevent a few bad landlords trying to abuse the system. All property.

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All property. By all landlords that fails to sell will stand empty and impossible

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sell will stand empty and impossible to live in. For anyone seeking rental accommodation. The amendment.

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Simply sets that punitive period at six months and also requires the at six months and also requires the landlord to furnish proof to a court of a genuine and reasonable, including reasonable pricing including reasonable pricing attempts to sell the property during that time. My Lords, the House of. that time. My Lords, the House of. Commons debate on this amendment acknowledge the landlord being hit with 12 months of no income, along with 12 months of no income, along with the costs of their property and standing empty for a year is a standing empty for a year is a problem.

But this was considered to be, and I quote, relatively minor be, and I quote, relatively minor and simply I quote an inconvenience to a well-meaning landlord who is struggling to sell. It was claimed struggling to sell. It was claimed that I quote it was. It is far too easy to abuse the proposed period of easy to abuse the proposed period of six months. And I quote again one more time, any rogue landlord looking for an excuse to evict. And finally, that landlords give excuses that are perhaps not all they seem to be.

I'm sorry to say, my Lords, that no facts were presented, that no facts were presented, quantified or examine. No evidence was provided, just these dismissive

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was provided, just these dismissive anti landlord assertions. My Lords, at least. In this. House, and my thanks to the noble lady of the Minister and her team for meeting with the noble Lord, panic and myself to discuss this. We were given two reasons to justify the 12 month punitive period. First, that it would prevent bad landlords from pretending to be selling in order to evict a tenant so that they could relate at a higher rent level. Second, that the six month punitive period might be section 21 by the back door.

I'll take these briefly in turn. First, the rent hike theory. My Lords, a landlord seeking a justifiable rent increase would not need to go through the process and cost of eviction. They could simply seek a rent increase via the mechanism within the bill. So the need to evict a tenant at all is irrelevant. Turning to the mathematics and I will spare the house repetition of the calculations. A landlord on leaving the property empty for just six months, would then, in order to recover the losses and get into profit, have to hike the new rent by more than 2 or 300%.

And that, of course, would make the property completely uncompetitive in the rental market. In other words, my Lords, six months penalty is more

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than sufficient to make the rent hike strategy unworkable. I also ask Noble Lords to note

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I also ask Noble Lords to note data from Zoopla, which shows that within six months of putting a property on the market, it is clear property on the market, it is clear whether it is going to sell, so it could simply be made available to could simply be made available to rent after that six month period. I remind the House also that the amendment requires a landlord to amendment requires a landlord to produce evidence of genuine attempts to sell at a sensible price.

to sell at a sensible price. However, I was told in a meeting with the noble lady of the minister and her T that if a property does and her T that if a property does not sell at a proven sensible price, the landlord would be forced to keep reducing the price until a sale was reducing the price until a sale was achieved at any price. Otherwise they would face a period of 12

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months when their property must, by law, stand empty, unprintable and cutting. Off the income of a landlord.

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Off the income of a landlord. For a full 12 months. My Lords, I questioned the right and the questioned the right and the morality of a state to use so casually such measures to threaten all landlords with 12 months loss of all landlords with 12 months loss of income if they do not sell a property at a discounted level to a sensible price.

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In terms. Of who will be affected. My Lords, HMRC, hardly a partisan player in this discussion identified in 20 2324. Some 2.86 million people as unincorporated landlords across across the UK with income from renting and according to the English Private Landlord Survey of 2024, 45% of all landlords, half of whom, incidentally are female, own just one rental property. And if we expand that to four properties or less, that is 83% of landlords forcing these people to take their property off the rental market for

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12 months. Means that a single. Property landlord's whole income simply ceases. While costs such as maintenance. Council tax services, etc. Continue to require pain. Finally, but crucially, my Lords sales typically do not fall through because of the fault or choice of landlords. Analysis by Quick Move landlords. Analysis by Quick Move now. Reveals that 41% of all residential property sales fell residential property sales fell through in the second quarter of this year. Of these transactions, this year.

Of these transactions, the vast majority failed, not due to the seller. In fact, 45% almost half the seller. In fact, 45% almost half of failed sales fell through due to a difficulty in the buyer obtaining a difficulty in the buyer obtaining a mortgage. Other reasons included a break in the chain 18%, the buyer break in the chain 18%, the buyer simply changing their mind 14%, and legal problems 9%. In short, the legal problems 9%. In short, the imposition of even six months no rent punishment negates the rent hike theory while still penalising hike theory while still penalising those trying to provide much needed rental accommodation.

But more proportionately than the excessive proportionately than the excessive 12 months penalty in the bill. Turning now to the this is section 21 by the back door argument. While I respect that concern, it is misplaced. My Lords, this is the. Bogeyman that has been used to reject practically every amendment proposed to this bill. And in the case of this amendment, it is wholly false. The bill very clearly sets out the four grounds on which a landlord can require a tenant to vacate a property.

Any landlord abusing these, for example, failing to produce evidence that a genuine sale has been tried and failed will be acting illegally, full stop.

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Whether it is for 12 months or. Six under this. Amendment, even if acting legally, landlords still face a punitive period of six months with no income to heat by the 12 month no income to heat by the 12 month ban. Yet further punishment on every landlord who fails to sell, even for sale falling through is not their sale falling through is not their fault is excessive, even gratuitous. It is to move the bill from It is to move the bill from rebalancing renters rights to inflicting a kind of renters revenge, instead of seeking to revenge, instead of seeking to strike a balance or a compromise.

It is wilfully irrational and punitive of all landlords, seemingly just

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of all landlords, seemingly just because they are landlords. My Lords. There is much good in this Bill

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There is much good in this Bill which I have supported, including the ending of section 21, and I am no stooge for landlords, as my other no stooge for landlords, as my other amendments have shown. But there does need to be a realistic balance. does need to be a realistic balance. In the midst of a housing crisis. It makes no sense to have properties artificially held empty and artificially held empty and unprintable for any longer than is necessary, on the basis that a landlord has failed to sell a landlord has failed to sell a property, often through no fault of their own.

I urge the government to reflect and not to reject this amendment just because they can, or on the basis of a visceral hostility to landlords. This is a reasoned, rational and balanced compromise amendment that will achieve the objectives of the bill. A 12 month penalty is not only overkill, but by shrinking the amount of rental property available, actually acts against renters rather than for them. My Lords, this House needs to ask the House of Commons to think again and perhaps more importantly, to help those so desperately seeking property to rent rather than having it artificially held unavailable.

I therefore urge noble Lords to engage with the reasoning behind the six months to support the availability of property to rent and to support this amendment, in other words, to insist on its amendment 18 motion. C1 and I will be seeking support of the House in this matter.

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Lords, Lords. I support. Lord Cromwell's motion. C1 I

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Lord Cromwell's motion. C1 I declare the piqued my interest. My wife owns properties in London
17:08
Lord Pannick Portrait Lord Pannick (Crossbench)
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My wife owns properties in London which she rents out, from which I. Occasionally benefits. Can I thank.

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Can I thank. The Minister. For meeting with Lord Cromwell. matter? Her engagement with us is very

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Her engagement with us is very much appreciated. Can I. Emphasise what the Minister. Said in the House what the Minister. Said in the House of Commons when the Lords amendment was defeated? It's that column. 637 he said I quote, we recognise that there will be occasions when landlords regain a vacant possession of their property using ground one way, but are unable subsequently to sell it.

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Despite repeated. Attempts to do so. That's the end of the quote. So the government

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of the quote. So the government expressly acknowledge that there will be landlords. Who are. Unable to sell.

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Who are. Unable to sell. Having intended to do so. And who are.

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And who are. Acting in perfect good faith. And the issue. Is whether it's really.

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Is whether it's really. Appropriate in this bill to penalise. Such good faith landlords penalise. Such good faith landlords by preventing. Them from renting out their property for 12 months because their property for 12 months because of abuse, and there is abuse by

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of abuse, and there is abuse by other landlords. Now, I. Think I. Suggest to the House. This. Is a plain and.

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Is a plain and. Obvious case of a disproportionate sanction. It's a sanction against those who

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It's a sanction against those who have done no wrong, who have acted in perfect good. Faith.

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Faith. And this government is often

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And this government is often eager to emphasise the importance of human rights law. And it's important human rights law. And it's important to acknowledge that. Human rights law does not just protect prisoners,

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illegal entrants. It also. Protects law. Abiding citizens

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Protects law. Abiding citizens who own property and who wish to.

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who own property and who wish to. Rent it out. It is a basic principle of the common law adopted. By the.

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Human Rights Act, that any interference with the right to

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property requires a fair balance between the interests of the. Property owner. And the interests.

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Of the community. And I suggest to the House that to. Penalise a.

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Penalise a. Landlord who has acted. In good faith. By preventing them. From renting.

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From renting. Out their own property for 12 months, when they have done no

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months, when they have done no wrong, defies the need. For a. Fair balance.

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It is manifestly disproportionate. Lord Cromwell's.

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Lord Cromwell's. Modest amendment to reduce the period to six months is fair, and it period to six months is fair, and it is balanced. And if he divides the House as he's. Indicated he will, he will certainly.

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will certainly. Have my support. My apologies to. That. If the rebel Lord is.

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Wanting to speak. I'm perfectly prepared to give way to him. No,

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he's that that I seem. To have the floor of the House. And, my Lords, that the never

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And, my Lords, that the never Lord or Cromwell has made out a very
17:11
Lord Hacking Portrait Lord Hacking (Labour)
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powerful case, supported well by the noble Lord, who's just spoken his name. I am Lord Paddick, and it's very, very, very well supported by Lord Pannick, my Lords, that the

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noble Lords and others will remember. I supported him. On this measure.

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In committee, and I think also in the report, it actually covers a

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the report, it actually covers a wider ground than just the landlord who has been unable to sell. There's another.

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There's another. Ground of where the landlord has

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Ground of where the landlord has to. Put members of the family. In that property. And I cited the

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In that property. And I cited the example if having done that, and then one of the parents, let's say,

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then one of the parents, let's say, of his parents coming in, that gets a stroke, then the landlord needs. To do.

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To do. Something with the property, and that's putting it back in the market. And in that.

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market. And in that. Situation, the. Landlord is penalised in exactly

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the same way as the noble Lord has described. When the landlord fails and the genuine. Attempt to sell.

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Attempt to sell. My Lords. In committee. And I think also in report, I

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And I think also in report, I actually propose what I think of is problem. problem. prohibition.

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On any landlord, sir, putting. Property again on the market at a Property again on the market at a higher price than the price which existed at the time of the change of ownership. My Lords, I didn't.

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Succeed in. That argument. I think I should have succeeded, but I didn't. But

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have succeeded, but I didn't. But I'm certainly supporting the noble Lord. Lord Cromwell, as. Supported by

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Lord Cromwell, as. Supported by noble Lord of panic. Who I'm sure correctly naming and

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identifying. So, my Lords, I do hope your lordships. Have heard the argument both of. The wrong common and not panic, and will support them.

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and will support them. On this issue. motion.

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motion. D1 in my name, which the noble lady the minister. Referred to sympathetically at.
17:14
Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)
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The beginning of our debate. At the moment, as we've heard, the Bill precludes a landlord who gives

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precludes a landlord who gives notice to a tenant because he wants to sell from letting that property for 12 months. If that sale.

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If that sale. Falls through, and the government wants all tenants to be. Protected against abusive

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Protected against abusive eviction by landlords, and I have no difficulty with that principle. But difficulty with that principle. But in the case of shared owners, there are already safeguards against such abuse which are not there for conventional landlords, and also their sales are more likely to fall through through no fault of their own. My Lords, the amendment exempting shared owners from this provision was carried at report stage in your lordships House by the largest majority of any amendments on the Bill.

And whilst sympathy was expressed by ministers for the plight of shared owners and the other place, the amendment was overturned in the other place and last week the government tabled its motion asking your lordships not to insist on that amendment and October the 10th enable aid to the Minister. Follow that up by writing to all peers, hoping that they would support her motion, not to insist. Then last week we had a Damascene conversion, and here I obviously had more good fortune than the noble Lord, Lord Commonwealth.

I'm most grateful to the noble lady, the minister for the time she spent with me on this last week and indeed earlier, and to Matthew Penicuik and the officials and the amendment in my name is the outcome of those discussions and represents a deal which I can accept. To briefly summarise the case, my Lords shared owners are social housing residents. They own a portion of their property and they rent the rest of it from the housing association. They purchase a share of their home because they could not afford to buy on the open market.

They are a distinct, legally identifiable group of people, and they are actually precluded from some acting without permission from their registered provider. The group of shared owners that this amendment seeks to protect. Our principle of those who who bought a flat in a block that needs remediation, but who have subsequently had to move. Now, normally a shared owner would sell his or her own, his or her share in the block. But because of the difficulties of selling and a block that needs remediation because of the safety issues post Grenfell, that has often been impossible.

So they have had to sublet. And here comes the distinction with all the other landlords. Shared owners cannot sublet without the express consent from their registered provider because subletting is banned from their leases. Such concerns already gives robust protection to their tenants. Registered providers control and approve the rent that is being charged, in line with guidance set by the government, so shared owners cannot evict a tenant simply to jack up the rent. In addition, and this is a crucial point, registered providers can withhold permission to sublet at any point if rules are not adhered to.

Another effective lever to prevent the abuse the legislation seeks to ban. So these combined control mechanisms provide several layers of protection for tenants of shared owners. In short, the risks the government seeks to guard against with a 12 month re letting ban cannot materialise, and none of these control mechanisms are in place for traditional landlords who operate with any such similar oversight. So, my Lords, many shared owners have had to move and sublet, but the local market rent is often less than the mortgage and service charges, causing severe financial difficulties.

Hence, subletting is at best a temporary solution to enable them to move on while they wait for the buildings to be remediated, or they find a willing buyer before then. Now, sales of a shared ownership flat are more likely to fall through than a normal sale due to the additional constraints involved, they have to give first dibs to the registered provider, who then has to look for a buyer who qualifies for shared ownership. So there is a restricted pool of buyers.

The sale price is set by a Rics valuation, which shed owners have to pay for, and this also restricts the pool of buyers as that valuation may be more than they're prepared to pay. Then any purchasers lender can be reluctant to lend due to building safety concerns. So a shared owner may find a potential purchaser, then give four months notice to their tenant if they waited until contracts were exchanged before giving notice, they will almost certainly lose the buyer whose mortgage offer will expire.

In the meantime, if the sale falls through a void of any length, let alone a 12 month period as proposed in the bill would cause severe financial hardship and put their home at risk, they would immediately be exposed to arrears and risk defaulting on their mortgage, rent and or service charge, and would trigger possession claims. Following discussions with the Minister. And again, I repeat my thanks. I've table three amendments in lieu. Amendments 19 B, 19 C and 19 D these collectively fully exempt shared owners from the 12 month no reset period, provided they meet a certain set of criteria that demonstrated the shared owner had made a genuine attempt to sell.

And these amendments in lieu meet the core aims of my original amendment, whilst also providing the safeguards needed for support. I needn't go through all the amendments in detail, but there is one point I want to make. One condition is that the shared owner must have informed the assured tenant in writing at the outset of the tenancy of this exemption, and this is to ensure that the tenants are aware of the circumstances of the tenancy they are entering, and this is consistent with other areas of the bill.

But can the Minister give an assurance that provisions will be made during implementation to ensure that existing shared owner landlords with an existing tenancy will have an opportunity to provide this information to their tenant after the bill comes into force. Because as the bill stands, they are not covered. These conditions, taken together, will ensure that the shared owners are genuine in their attempt to sell. Finally, amendment 19 C includes a power to end the exemption in the future. For example, once the building safety programme has been completed, however, the amendment does not put a date on this to ensure that the exemption remains in place for as long as necessary.

My Lords, I hope when the time comes the House will agree to this motion.

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I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, on the compromise he's achieved on this important amendment. I must declare a family interest. My wife owns a family interest. My wife owns rented property in Dorset. My Lords, I rise to speak in opposition to the I rise to speak in opposition to the amendment to motion C in the name of my noble friend, Lord Cromwell. Well-intentioned, though I believe Well-intentioned, though I believe it is, my noble friend's amendment would mean that a landlord who has gained possession of a property using the grounds of an intention to sell, would be able to relate that sell, would be able to relate that property after six months if it has not been sold, rather than having to not been sold, rather than having to wait up to a year as specified in the bill.

Now, in normal circumstances, one would expect a sale to be agreed within around six months, or if not, the landlord months, or if not, the landlord would still want to go for a sale rather than relate the property so rather than relate the property so the issue would not arise in most instances where this grounds for instances where this grounds for possession could be used. But the government wants to prevent an unscrupulous minority of landlords unscrupulous minority of landlords using these grounds for eviction as a way of bypassing the bill's fundamental intention of giving renters greater security.

The fear is that the landlord professes to be wanting to sell, but has no such intention. They simply want to evict the tenant. The landlord may want to switch to more profitable Airbnb style lettings, or they may want to replace a tenant who is complaining about the landlord's neglect of essential repairs. They want to find a more malleable and or a more desperate tenant. There is some evidence of this cheating behaviour from Scotland, where similar legislation has not had constraints on how quickly a vacated property can be released.

So the government wants to prevent abuses. The bill needs to ban re letting for long enough to deter a landlord from misusing these grounds for possession. The question is how long a pause before re letting is permitted would be long enough to take a case where a renter is complaining about damp and mould. The property needs, say, £15,000 to be spent on rectifying various defects. If the tenant is paying 900 a month, it would be advantageous for the landlord to go without six months rent.

That's £5,300 to be rid of that tenant and find someone who will tolerate the poor conditions. But having to forgo 12 months rent well over £10,000 in this particular case before re letting would present a more robust deterrent against using this no fault eviction route to removing the tenant. I can see that a compromise of a nine months ban on re lifting would probably be acceptable all round, but in the absence of that halfway house, I think it is safer and more foolproof to stay with the bill's 12 month

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term and reject this amendment. My Lords, first of all, I. Really

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My Lords, first of all, I. Really also want to join Lord best in. Really praising. Lord. Young for his tenacity and

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commitment to. Shared ownership. Owners. They really are. Are the.

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Are the. Raw end of the market, and they get a raw deal in.

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get a raw deal in. Many different ways. And I think he. Has really shown. His his mettle. In his. Commitment to this.

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Commitment to this. But also it's. Fair to say. To thank Baroness Taylor for
17:24
Baroness Thornhill Portrait Baroness Thornhill (Liberal Democrat)
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listening and actually doing something about it. And I hope that a commitment to share donors continues in other areas that we're actually going to be looking at. But let's turn to the amendment 18 from Lord Cromwell, which we will, it would appear, be voting on. It's very difficult to follow the eloquence of Lord Paddick and Lord Cromwell, but I'm going to try to make my sincere apologies. Yes, my sincere apologies about about that. But I'm going to try and I'm going to say why we oppose this.

Lord Best has already highlighted what we call revenge evictions, and I guess we're coming at it from working for many years. In the case of my friend Baroness Granda, with renters groups and renters charities. So you really do get an idea of what is happening at the sharp end. And the sharp end isn't quite as narrow as we might like to think it's. There are actually probably more unscrupulous landlords out there than the amount of sales that take over a year to actually sell.

And I think on revenge evictions, the fact that a tenant will be kicked out because they ask you gave a very good example there, but there are there are many others. And in certain parts of the country where rents aren't quite so expensive, the six months rent would certainly make it worthwhile. Kicking, kicking somebody out on that ground if they ask for even some modest accessibility improvements and things like that. So we're arguing really over six, 9 or 12 months.

And the truth is, only time will tell. So what I would be seeking from the government is some reassurance that this will be looked at, because that could very well be the case. Lord bless mentioned Scotland and it's really interesting that 1 in 5 evictions that were used on this repossession ground then turned up on their database are still being for sale, which does give weight to the fact that people are prepared to do it because in Scotland they have no period for actually not relaxing.

But as was mentioned during several debates, I refer to the fact that I chatted to my women friends who are who are landlords. I referred to them as my landladies, so I put this to them and they looked at me as if it was a bit of a weird question. They said, well, if I was concerned about my property sitting empty, I am actually able to sell my property with the tenants still in the property. While the For Sale board is up at the door, up and the door.

So I wouldn't serve. I would talk to them and say that you know, the sale boards go in up, but I certainly wouldn't be serving notice until I was certain that I had a buyer, because the statistic that hasn't been bandied about is the length of time it sometimes takes to actually sell your house. So interestingly, they didn't actually see it as the kind of emotive, big, terrible, unfair problem that the noble Lords have made it out to be.

Most importantly, by keeping your tenants there, you're getting the rent. But much more importantly, in our view, is you're actually giving your tenants more time to find a home.

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Yeah. My Lords, first of all, I declare my interest as a councillor in Central Bedfordshire. My Lords, I'll speak briefly to. Support the two
17:28
Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Conservative)
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important motions before us. Those tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, on no relate provisions, and by my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, on shared ownership on motion C1. As the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell has clearly explained under the Bill as drafted, where a landlord seeks possession to sell a property, and then that sale falls through, as it does in around about a third of cases, that the landlord is prohibited from relating for the property for 12 months now. In practice, this means perfectly good homes must stand empty for a whole year.

The amendment before us does not undermine the bill's purpose. It retains the requirement for a genuine sales process and safeguards against abuse. It introduces the vital element of proportionality. A six month restriction would still deter bad actors, while avoiding unnecessary loss of rental supply at a time when demand and rents are rising sharply. My Lords, we have a housing crisis and we must take every opportunity to improve the supply of housing and homes, leaving homes empty for 12 months does not help those desperately looking for a home to rent.

Turning to the shed owners, I'd also like to extend my appreciation of the dedicated work of my noble friend, Lord Young of Cookham, and we support the motions in his name. He's made a compelling and deeply fair case on behalf of shared owners who, through no fault of their own, have found themselves trapped by the complexities of the shared ownership system. And I want to thank ministers for listening to the concerns raised across the House and for working constructively with my noble friend on this issues.

We would support my noble friend if he takes this to a vote. But my understanding from what the Minister has said that the government is supportive of it and therefore we hope the vote is not necessary.

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My Lords are. I'm grateful for all of those contributions to our ongoing
17:30
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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contributions to our ongoing discussions on these matters. If I can first turn to the failure to sell points, noble Lords Cromwell and Pannick queried why we are determined not to reduce the no let period to six months. If the landlord can prove the property is not selling on the open market. Of course, it's imperative that we do provide the very strong protections against backdoor evictions. So renters have more security and stability, and they can stay in their homes for longer, build lives in their communities, and avoid the risk of becoming homeless.

The noble Lord Pannick referred to a disproportionate sanction, but we've carefully considered the balance between the rights of the landlord and the security of the tenant, and I think that is where we've come to the conclusion that the current 12 month restriction on letting being introduced will prevent abuse of the possession grounds, for example, by potentially opening up the practice of backdoor section 21 style evictions to unscrupulous landlords. This length of time will make it unprofitable for a landlord to evict a tenant with the intention of relating the property to another tenant at a higher rent, and any of us that have dealt with housing cases will know of cases where that has undoubtedly happened in in areas where the markets are very hot, it happens even more.

The restriction also ensures that landlords cannot pursue the retaliatory retaliatory eviction so. Clearly outlined by the noble Lord best. And we do hear of frequent examples of that as well. I think the liberal order, Cromwell referred to me talking about people being forced to reduce the price. I don't think it was a matter of forcing people to reduce the price. I just feel that the if the property is on the market for that 12 month period, it does give the opportunity where landlords or sorry, it discourages landlords from marketing their property at a price which they know will not sell, and it will give the time for that property price to be reduced over time, and means it's less likely to encourage those.

Section 21 evictions by the backdoor. The noble Lord Jameson talked about properties being empty for a whole year. Well, there's Baroness Thornhill, very ably demonstrated there is no need for those properties to sit empty. They can be marketed while the tenants are still there. If notice, you know, notice being given. So there's no we don't need to have this this protection reduced to six months. I think it's very important. And I've had a plea from shelter in particular, but from other renters organisations over the last few days that we do not water down this provision in the bill.

It's a very important part of the protection for tenants. And as I said, we genuinely believe we've got the balance right between the rights of the landlord and the protections for the tenant on the issue around shared owners. And as other noble lords have commented, I've been very impressed with the way that the noble Lord young has championed the cause of shared owners. We all realise the very difficult situation they find themselves in, and I think I would also like to thank the Shared Owners Network, who have been very good in their briefings to all of us and helping us to come to the conclusions we've reached on this.

They do find themselves in a very difficult position. I think the noble Lord young describes them as reluctant landlords, and we know that's where they are. The noble Lord asked how the requirement for a shared owner to inform the assured tenant of the exemption will work for existing tenancies. The government will make provision during implementation to ensure that shared owner landlords with an existing tenancy will have the opportunity to provide this information to their tenant after the bill comes into force.

We want to take time to make sure we get the right approach to that and ensure we find a solution that works for shared owners, and we intend to do this using the delegated powers to make transitional provision provided by clause 147 of the Bill. And I very much look forward to working with the noble Lord young on this point as we prepare prepare for

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implementation of the bill, I beg to move. My Lords, the question is that motion B be agreed to as many that opinion say content contrary, not content. The contents have it motion content. The contents have it motion C Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, moved formally. The question is that moved formally. The question is that motion C be agreed to a motion c1 Lord Cromwell.
17:35
Lord Cromwell Portrait Lord Cromwell (Crossbench)
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Lord Cromwell. I understand that this stage I should be very brief, so I'll simply say to Baroness Thornhill, I also say to Baroness Thornhill, I also speak to many landlords and tenants and groups, and indeed have put amendments down on behalf of tenant groups during this process. I'd like to thank all those who've spoken. I particularly admire Lord best ability to see into the mind of landlords who failed to sell their property and what they would do next. I do question his maths, but perhaps we can come to that outside the chamber.

Selling with a sitting tenant is going to definitely be a different matter to selling without a tent on board. But I would simply say this it is clear to me, and I hope to the House, that a rational basis suggests that 12 months are. Inability to rent out your property is disproportionate, six months is still punitive, but it is effective. I have sought compromise on this in

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vain, and on that basis, I wish to test. The opinion of the.

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House and beg to move C1. The original question was that motion C be agreed to, since when motion C be agreed to, since when motion C1 has been moved as an amendment to motion C to leave out from the words house to the end and insert to insist on its amendment 18. The question, therefore, is amendment C one big retailers

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amendment C one big retailers content. Third. The country not content. Think
17:37
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The country not content. Think the question will be decided by a division and I will remain on my division and I will remain on my feet until voting is open. Voting is

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And.

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And. And. Okay And. Okay we've And. Okay we've got. Very Very complex. Very complex. We're Very complex. We're going Very complex. We're going to Very complex. We're going to come Very complex. We're going to come Order.

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The question is. The motion C1 be

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The question is. The motion C1 be agreed to the opinion of the say content contrary, not content. The content contrary, not content. The contents will go to the right by the thrown, the not contents to the left

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Yes. Yes. What What What do What do you What do you think? What do you think? The. What do you think? The. What Yes, Yes, I. Yes. Yes. I. Yes. I. Yes, Yes. I. Yes, yes. Yes. I. Yes, yes. Okay. Yes. I. Yes, yes. Okay. Yes.

Yes. I. Yes, yes. Okay. Yes. I Yes. I. Yes, yes. Okay. Yes. I that Yes. I. Yes, yes. Okay. Yes. I that Yes. I. Yes, yes. Okay. Yes. I that Yes. I. Yes, yes. Okay. Yes. I that I. Will. I. I. Will. I. I I. Will. I. I do I. Will. I. I do that.

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The The question The question is The question is that The question is that motion The question is that motion c1 The question is that motion c1 be

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The question is that motion c1 be I, I, I I, I know I, I know that I, I know that that. Yes

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My My lords My lords they My lords they have My lords they have voted

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My lords they have voted My lords they have voted content 204 not content 215. Therefore the 204 not content 215. Therefore the not contents have it.

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Must therefore not. The question is that motion C be agreed to as many that opinion will agreed to as many that opinion will say content contrary, not content. The contents have it motion d

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The contents have it motion d Baroness Taylor, of Stevenage moved formally. My Lords, I've already.

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My Lords, I've already. Spoken to motion d that this House do not insist on its amendment 19 to which the Commons have

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disagreed to their reason. 19 a I beg to move. The question is that motion d be

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The question is that motion d be agreed to motion T1 Lord young of. agreed to motion T1 Lord young of. The original question was a motion d be agreed to? Since when motion D1 has been moved as an amendment to has been moved as an amendment to motion D at end? Insert quote and do propose amendments 19 B to 19 D in propose amendments 19 B to 19 D in lieu. The question is therefore the motion D1 be agreed to, as many of that opinion will say.

Content the that opinion will say. Content the country not content the contents have it.
17:50
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Motion e Baroness Taylor of Stevenage. My Lords have already.

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My Lords have already. Spoken to motion that this House do not insist on its amendment 26, to which the Commons have disagreed.

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to which the Commons have disagreed. There is in 20 6AI beg to move. Question is it. Motion e be agreed to as many that opinions say content contrary, not content. The contents have it motion f Baroness Taylor, of

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Stevenage. My Lords, I have already spoken to motion f that this House do not insist on its amendment 27 to which the Commons have disagreed. There is in 20 7AI beg to move.

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in 20 7AI beg to move. Question is it motion f be agreed to as many that opinion will say content contrary not content. The

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content contrary not content. The contents have it motion g Baroness Taylor, of Stevenage. My Lords, I have already spoken

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My Lords, I have already spoken to motion G that this House does not insist on its amendment 39, to which the Commons have disagreed for the the Commons have disagreed for the reason. 39 a and do propose amendments 39 B and 39 c and though

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I beg to move. Question is that motion G be agreed to a motion G one Baroness Cressida.

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Cressida. Moved. The original question was a motion g be agreed to, since when motion g be agreed to, since when motion G one has been moved? Actually that is not necessary. The question is that motion G be agreed to is that opinion say content

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contrary, not content. Contents have it.

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Motion H Baroness Taylor of Stevenage. I Lords I move motion H that this House do not insist on its amendment 53 to which the Commons have disagreed, for there is an 53 a with the leave of the House. I will also the leave of the House. I will also speak to motions j, k and k one, which are grouped together. I would like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, and the noble Lord, Lord to Clifford for their amendments
17:51
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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to Clifford for their amendments relating to grounds for possession. My Lords Amendment 53, tabled by the noble Baroness. Lady Scott, would remove the restriction from ground for a which limits it to students. Only students living in HMOs. This would allow students living in self-contained one and two bedroom properties, for example, to be evicted each year. We have been clear from the outset that this ground has been carefully designed to ensure the cyclical nature of the typical student market is maintained. We believe the ground applying to typical groups of undergraduates living together in a shared house is the right position, while, for example, a postgraduate couple who put down roots in the area may live in a smaller property should benefit from the full set of protections the bill gives to tenants.

Noble Lords have expressed concerns about the impact this restriction will have on the supply of one and two bedroom properties in the student market. With respect, I do not think these fears will be borne out. There will continue to be demand for these properties and many students will continue to move out in line with this academic year, even when not evicted, renting to students continues to be a buoyant market, and I do not believe the bill will dampen this. As I have stressed at length.

One of the core principles of this bill is that tenants should have more security in their homes. Removing this restriction could lead to students who need more security of tenure, being evicted more regularly. And I would therefore ask that the noble Baroness does not insist on her amendment. Turning next to Lords Amendment 64, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, which would introduce a new ground for possession for the sole purpose of allowing a landlord to regain their property, to house a carer for themselves, their spouse or child.

I thank the noble Lord for his thoughtful amendment in law. He has carefully considered some of the points I raised when we discussed his previous amendment. It is more specific on the type of care to be given, and ensures that the ground can only be used where the dwelling is very nearby to the person requiring the care. The government, of course, recognises the vital work that carers do to support people to live independently and with dignity. We will continue to look at what steps we can take to support the care sector.

Phase one of Baroness Casey's independent review into adult social care should report next year. While we are profoundly sympathetic to the needs of those who require care, I am afraid we cannot support this amendment. I would like to remind the House that we have already strengthened possession grounds to cover some situations, such as housing employees. In these cases, we believe the needs of those involved can be deemed to overrule the general principle that renters deserve security of tenure and should be able to put down roots in their long term homes, providing security for tenants in the private rented sector is the government's priority, and we have put much thought into the design of the possession grounds to ensure that they balance the needs of landlords and tenants.

There must be a compelling case for new grounds, with strong evidence that it is justified for a tenant to lose their home. This proposal does not meet that bar. We engaged extensively with stakeholders throughout the development of the bill, and there have only been very limited calls for a ground for landlords to require care. Any added ground increases the complexity of the system, which allows more potential for abuse. This amendment could lead to a long term member of the community losing their home to house a carer required only for a short period, and there have not been significant calls for it from the sector.

I therefore asked the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment in lieu. Turning now to Government Amendment 62 a, I would like to extend my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, and the National Farmers Union for their very constructive work with the Department to find a solution to the concerns that they raised. As the Housing Minister explained. In the other place, the government has reflected on its position and tabled amendments in lieu which narrowly expand ground five A to allow agricultural landlords to evict assured tenants in order to house both employees and non employed workers engaged in agriculture.

We believe this is a small technical change that supports the government's ambition to ensure the agricultural sector can continue to function effectively without compromising security of tenure. I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Carrington and the National Farmers Union have indicated their support for these changes, and I hope that noble Lords will also support this amendment. I beg to move.
17:55
17:55
Baroness Scott of Bybrook Portrait Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Conservative)
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My Lords, I beg to move a motion H one as an amendment to motion H leave out from house to the end and insert do insist on its amendment 53. My Lords, I speak briefly to two important possession grounds, those concerning students and carers. And can I also thank the noble Lord, the Minister, for her her support on Lord Carrington's amendment, which this side of the House supported strongly. First on students, as your lordships will no amendment 53 a sought to expand ground foray so that it also applied to one and two bedroom properties let to students.

Extending this ground would maintain essential. Essential stability in the market, ensuring that students arriving each autumn are not left without somewhere to live. Without it, landlords may be unable to gain possession in time for the new academic year, reducing availability, pushing up rents and increasing uncertainty. My Lords, this is not simply about convenience, it's about fairness and inclusion. Many of these smaller homes are occupied by students who need quieter or self-contained accommodation, often those who are neurodiverse who also or but also find shared living environments particularly challenging for them.

Access to such housing is not a preference, but my Lords, it's a necessity to exclude these properties from ground foray risks creating a two tier system that leaves the most vulnerable in our society behind. And I hope the minister and indeed our Liberal Democrat colleagues who once spoke so passionately in defence of students and will reflect very carefully on the points I bring forward. My Lords, we have a number of case studies that illustrate the implications of this ill conceived plan, from Cornwall and Portsmouth to Loughborough.

In Portsmouth, my Lords are letting agent and property Mark member reported very high numbers of students renting one and two bedroom flats, accounting for 20 or 30% at 30% of their portfolio. Not a small number, my Lords, and those included many international students in Loughborough. Feedback from another property mark agent on student tenancies showed a lower number of HMO lets compared to houses and flats. The evidence flatly contradicts the government's claims that one and two bedroom student properties account for only a small fraction of the market.

Regional variations exist, but the pattern is clear these homes are a substantial and vital component of the student housing sector, and by excluding them from ground foray, the government risks creating a two tier system both geographically and between students themselves, particularly those with specific or additional needs. My Lords, turning to carers and I rise to express my strong support for the amendment from the noble Lord Lord to Clifford. As I said at the report, this amendment is tightly drawn and provides for flexibility in exceptional circumstances where a property close to home could be used to care for a loved one, enabling people to live independently and with dignity rather than entering into the institutional care system.

Property market has also highlighted helpful precedent from Wales, where under the Renting Homes World Act, carers can have succession rights if the tenant they care for dies. While that provision does not apply, I understand that to landlords carers, it does demonstrate, my Lords, that such flexibility is possible in law and can be delivered responsibly. My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Clifford, chooses to test the opinion of the House, we on these benches will support him. I also beg

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to move motion H1. The original. Question was that motion HB
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18:03
Lord de Clifford Portrait Lord de Clifford (Crossbench)
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possession for a family in need, to provide a full time carer for a family member. Can I just regarding comments made in the other place, can I just confirm that I have no direct interest with regards to any property? With this, my interest only came through contacts with rural letting agents who have clients that might need a care of themselves or family member and wish to use their property to house a carer. The amendment had been. The member has been revised since the Commons debate on the 8th of September.

One of the concerns, as already mentioned by Baroness Taylor Taylor, the minister the amendment is drawn to widely and open to abuse. The new restricts who the carers can be used for. For this

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being the landlord, their spouse or child or child, would they have legal responsibility for? We have.

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We have. Also changed change this to land or wish to give notice. They must provide evidence with the eviction notice that a full time carer is required to care for one of those individuals. This significantly individuals. This significantly tightens the range of the clause and therefore the ability of an unscrupulous landlord to use it in unscrupulous landlord to use it in the wrong way. I do, I do acknowledge having spoken with housing charities, that landlords do housing charities, that landlords do hold the power in the tenant landlord relationship and to approach and challenge a landlord is difficult.

With these changes, the onus is now on the landlords to prove the fine evidence rather than prove the fine evidence rather than the tenant, and then the tenant can go to an appropriate authority to challenge the eviction if no challenge the eviction if no evidence is provided. We are looking. We are. We are not looking to change in any way the four months to change in any way the four months notice period that a landlord would have to give for a family member needed needed the house, and knowledge that these grounds will be knowledge that these grounds will be used on very few occasions, but when used on very few occasions, but when it is used, it will be by a family, by a family at a very challenging time.

When full time carer is time. When full time carer is required for an immediate family member. Landlords will only evict if they believe they need a carer for a significant amount of time e.g. An elderly person or child with a long term illness and a disability. They find that is fortunate enough to be in the position to be in a position where the appropriate accommodation that meets the criteria of this amendment could, and most likely will be in location with limited supply of ability or alternative properties such as rural settings or cities and towns with high demand for rental properties, which is currently many.

I do acknowledge that a tenant does need to leave the property, and will have caused causes for upheaval, stress and potential cost to that family or energy. But surely a family has the right to use what possessions they have to maximise the quality of care for family member and support the rest of the family at a time of needs. I look to look forward to your lordship support on this amendment and if I need to, I may test the opinion of the House.
18:06
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe Portrait Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Labour)
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Thank you. I will.

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Lord Clifford's proposed amendment to create. A new position. Ground for. Carers at 64 V.

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Carers at 64 V. I know. Every noble Lord here. Appreciates and values.

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The important work that. Carers do in our communities. It goes without saying.

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It goes without saying. step. Possible. Every step we reasonably. Can. To help them. In their work. And the noble Lord.

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And the noble Lord. Lord delivered has been. Both thoughtful. And very. Considered throughout these discussions.

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these discussions. And clearly has the best interests of carers at heart, as he's again shown. I understand that

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he's again shown. I understand that this is a difficult issue and appreciate the arguments both that landlords. Who organise their. Own. Care are.

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Care are. Not burdening the state and that they should be able to utilise their

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they should be able to utilise their other. Hand. I note that previously in these debates and indeed the noble Lord that Clifford has mentioned them again today highlighted the

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again today highlighted the example. In. Rural communities.

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I think the scarcity of housing in rural areas also raises. The. Counterpoint of the plight of the

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Counterpoint of the plight of the tenant. These tenants may be the local teacher or work in the post office. Long term members of the community who don't own their own homes to evict them, to house a carer for a. Landlord who may possibly only be in the area for a couple of years, will upend their lives and leave them potentially struggling to remain in the area. And I think it's worth adding, my Lords, that currently the only way, the only way to test whether there

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is a genuine need for a carer ever having to is if the tenant. Challenges their.

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Eviction and the landlord has to go to court to obtain the possession order.

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Unfortunately, I'm afraid won't. Do that. As they will simply leave without

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As they will simply leave without the landlord ever having to prove a carer was really required. And I appreciate this is very much a balanced argument, but on balance, I'm of the view that allowing I'm of the view that allowing tenants to be evicted through no fault of their own in order to house carers to landlords is not the right approach to this. The threat and disruption this would cause to

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tenants, and the scope for wider misuse of this ground. Because I don't think we should

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Because I don't think we should underestimate, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill said, the danger that this could become a

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loophole. For unscrupulous landlords. And there are enough of them.

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And there are enough of them. experience. In the private rented sector. To realise. That this could. Be a real danger. I think there

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are. Dangers and the scope for. Wider misuse and I don't think in

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Wider misuse and I don't think in my view, therefore, the that that should be allowed to outweigh or that the benefit to a relatively narrow group of landlords should be allowed to outweigh that, that disruption. So I hope that this

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amendment is not moved to a vote. I know it's.

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I know it's. as. The joint owner. For a small cottage. In the village where I live.
18:10
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
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In the village where I live. I strongly. Support the noble. Lord, Lord. Clifford's Amendment. 64 B it's had the support of the

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64 B it's had the support of the noble lady Baroness Bowes, and of caring. Organisations who would be helped

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immediately. Not just. As. It were condemned to wait. For the Casey. Review.

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Which we're all very. Keen to see. The amendment has been tightened up considerably by

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been tightened up considerably by the noble Lord Lord together to avoid any abuse. In response. To comments that. The Minister herself.

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The Minister herself. Made in committee. And I think that is very helpful, and I think.

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response. Is an example of the government's unwillingness. So far. To.

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Take the demise of carers seriously. Being able to provide accommodation for carers.

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accommodation for carers. Can make a real difference. To. The. Availability of carers, you know,

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Availability of carers, you know, not every carer wants to be a living carer, especially if they have carer, especially if they have families. Yeah, and yet we need growing numbers of carers. This is because there are ever growing numbers of the aged and the disabled, and a scarcity of care home and hospice spaces. Yet there is an acute shortage of housing and a scarcity of short term term accommodation. Partly as a result of this very bill.

At the same time, we've got smaller families, we've got more couples having no children and more and more people seeing their relatives working or moving overseas. So the need for hard carers is increasing and the carers need short term accommodation. It can be sometimes for years as they move over time from job to job in different locations. We do need to look at this, my Lords, and I think this change would be a small and systemic positive that would help both the caring sector and families in need.

And I do invite the Minister to think again.
18:11
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted Portrait Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (Liberal Democrat)
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Yes.

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Speak to Lord the Clifford's Amendment, as. Previously I declare interest as

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Previously I declare interest as a private landlord. And in. The context of this amendment.

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I did have a relative to whom it would have applied. That interest no longer applies, as the Bill. Has.

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Has. Caused plans to be advanced and the tenants. In the relevant property given.

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Notice under current law. But of course. That does not take away my

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That does not take away my general concern on this topic. This replacement amendment now has a narrower scope, applying only to.

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narrower scope, applying only to. Homes needed to. House carers. In. The. Immediate family i.e. The

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Immediate family i.e. The landlord, spouse or children. Thus. It closes a. Loophole perceived by some of the.

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by some of the. Of it being. Used by. Those with an awful lot of

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Those with an awful lot of relatives, as was discussed with the minister.

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minister. others. May need more than one carer. Or have progressive conditions.

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Or have progressive conditions. And whatever the. Reason. Whether financial. Or. Availability.

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It may not be possible. To have one large. House to accommodate all the future.

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Carer needs. Under one. Roof, nor sustain. Expenditure on.

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Such a property. Before it's required. People do have to. Plan for.

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Plan for. Future deterioration. Of the. Person needing care.

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Person needing care. And of the family members. That are part. Of their support. Some may have

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Of their support. Some may have invested in an ideal adjacent. current. Law.

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Law. As it became. Available. especially.

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especially. In. The instance of. Children needing to plan. For when.

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For when. Parents are no longer around, such plans have to be scrapped under such plans have to be scrapped under this bill, most likely resulting.

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In property sales and earlier evictions. It may be. A one off readjustment. Because nobody.

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Because nobody. Will make such plans in future, but is it really necessary to hit

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but is it really necessary to hit damaged. At birth?

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Because that is amongst what we are. Doing. And to suggest it is easy for

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affected people to sell up and move. resources. Of more than one.

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Property, is cruel. Avoiding upheaval can be an important factor, both for reasons of. Health of the impaired person

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of. Health of the impaired person property. All the equipment, bars.

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All the equipment, bars. Ramps. Bathroom locations and so forth. This is really.

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forth. This is really. Not fair and it's not caring. And I therefore. Do support this amendment.
18:15
Baroness Thornhill Portrait Baroness Thornhill (Liberal Democrat)
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Do support this amendment. And with the narrower scope. I believe.

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I believe. It is a fair suggestion. My very

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It is a fair suggestion. My very briefly, we oppose Baroness Scott's briefly, we oppose Baroness Scott's amendment at report stage and we see and.

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We have reflected carefully. Upon it. My noble friend Lord

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Upon it. My noble friend Lord question. And was very much in conversations with Lord Willetts. And we finally came to the conclusion that the, the government conclusion that the, the government have probably got this about right for the reasons given by Baroness for the reasons given by Baroness Taylor, and we are very pleased that Lord Carrington's diligent work has Lord Carrington's diligent work has finally got the concessions that I think he deserves. Turning to the think he deserves.

Turning to the more difficult and emotive issue regarding carers, I hope that regarding carers, I hope that there's no one in in the House that can doubt our commitment to carers, can doubt our commitment to carers, but we feel it has now become very narrow and in in reality a very narrow and in in reality a very niche issue, affecting a very limited number of people who happen limited number of people who happen to have two properties in close proximity to a person who is needed proximity to a person who is needed care.

But we did feel it was an issue worthy of being raised. And I issue worthy of being raised. And I thank the noble Lord to Clifford and my noble friend Baroness Bowles for raising it. And, you know, thought has gone into it in the in the meantime, we were content with the Minister's answers and the reason for refusal. And I think it's about actually we have to remind ourselves when a. Lot of emotive things mentioned today, and we would agree with all of them.

Yes, it would be terrible if this happened to this, but actually this is fundamentally about expanding the repossession grounds in order to evict a tenant. And the emotive phrases that you've mentioned could equally apply to the tenants in the existing home that are about to be evicted. And the reason we eventually came down on saying that we weren't going to continue with our support. And I know, to the disappointment of my noble friend, is quite simply, we do not believe that monitoring this is remotely possible.

Monitoring some of the other grounds is going to be challenging, but this one will be nigh on impossible. And certainly trying to enforce it will be equally difficult. So we absolutely are developing a potential new loophole that could be abused. We have absolutely no, no doubt about that. However, I was we are concerned about the impact of the act on the wider family of carers, and we are sincerely looking forward to the Casey report and I'm sure the noble lady, the Minister, will expect us to hold their feet to the fire on the recommendations therein, and we really hope that the government will work with the carers charities in order to bring more fairness and just more humanity into the system.

But we do not believe that this fairly niche and if I'm at ease, there were fairly elite group of people. Yes, I'm sorry. But you are. You are actually every single person that uses this is evicting a set of people. And the bill is about protecting tenants in their place. And it is very, very few people who are going to be in that privileged position. So the government and ourselves, we have to make decisions about where that balance lies. And that decision has been made that way.

I'm sorry if it offends some people, but it's something that has to be considered when you're actually making a decision of this sort.
18:19
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage Portrait Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Yeah. have contributed in this debate. And there has been some emotive discussions. I'll come on to those in a moment, but very thoughtful and considered responses to the amendments, and I'm grateful for that. I'll start with the potential expansion of ground for a. The government, of course, recognises that the new tenancy system will have an impact on the way the student market operates. While we believe the ground covers the majority of the market, there is no one size fits all solution that covers all circumstances.

We think it's reasonable that the ground will apply to full time students in larger house share situations. Removing this restriction could lead to students who need more security of tenure, such as single parents living with their children or post-graduate couples living together put down roots in the area being evicted more regularly. And there's I took my degree as a mature student. I'm very sympathetic to people who have to run other side, other parts of their life alongside their student life. So they may be working, they may have families or caring responsibilities to cope with alongside their student life.

Noble Lords have raised concerns that the bill could cause severe shortages of student accommodation or forced students into expensive, purpose built student accommodation. We don't expect our reforms to have that that level of destabilising effect on the rental market. And I would just like to quote from shelter's email to me today, they say this amendment would deny a group of renters the security and stability offered by the Renters Rights Bill, many of whom will be in employment or with caring responsibilities that sit alongside their student life.

And that's when stability is absolutely the key. And we don't believe they should be denied that stability. We will continue to work with good landlords and their representative associations throughout the implementation of the bill. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Dr. Clifford, for the amendments he's made. But as I've already outlined, everyone in the House is aware of the remarkable and vital work that carers do to support families and individuals in difficult circumstances. However, given the risk of abuse and the very limited circumstances, and I think Baroness Thornhill put this very well that in which this might apply or could be used.

We don't believe this new ground is warranted. We've ensured that possession grounds are fair to both parties, giving tenants more security while ensuring that landlords can recover their property when reasonable. So, for example, if the carer is a family member as set out in ground one, a landlord can use that ground to gain possession, enabling them to accommodate the carer. I was grateful to my noble friend Baroness Warwick for illustrating some of the issues that may arise, particularly in the kinds of rural communities in the illustrations we've had in the chamber around who may be evicted as a result of this ground.

But I would also like to add that to the list of those who could be evicted. The fact that an existing carer living in a rural setting, where there might be very scarce housing, may face the possibility of eviction under this. So you may have to evict one carer to put another carer in place. And if there is scarce housing in that area, you may end up in that circumstance. Of course, the government will continue to look at ways it can support carers, and I can reassure the noble lady, Baroness Thornhill, that we will.

Once the Casey review is published, we will be looking at all of the issues around carer support. Once again, I'm grateful to the noble Lord Carrington for his comments. I know he wasn't able to stay in the chamber for the end of the debate, but we did have specific issues raised by stakeholders, including the National Farmers Union, and that was we did listen very carefully to what they said, and we have ensured the ground has appropriate protections in place now, preventing landlords from evicting assured tenants in order to house very short term workers.

So I hope that I'm glad that that met the noble Lords requests in terms of the amendment that he submitted previously. And I beg to move.
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Viscount Camrose Portrait Viscount Camrose (Conservative)
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I. My Lords. We.

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Unequivocally oppose the government's dangerous mandatory digital ID policy, both in principle

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digital ID policy, both in principle and in practice. If allowed. To become.

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To become. risks. Being. Subject to an extraordinary. Expansion of state power, one

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Expansion of state power, one that comes not only at the expense of personal freedom, but at great

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cost to the taxpayer. Before I. Outline our objections. To this proposal, it is

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important. First to. Understand the wider context in which this policy has been announced

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over. The. Year in government. An estimated 50,000 people have

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An estimated 50,000 people have entered the country on small boats. The. Largest recorded number to date.

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Largest recorded number to date. But the Secretary of State has. Claimed digital IDs will.

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Claimed digital IDs will. Deter these illegal migrants. My lord. Where is the evidence for this claim?

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Criminal gangs and illegal workers already operate outside formal employment and taxation systems.

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systems. They don't care about. Paperwork or credentials. They work illegally.

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Beyond the reach of existing regulation. They subvert existing. National insurance requirements.

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National insurance requirements. So why would we expect digital ID to be different? To suggest that a digital ID. Would somehow deter.

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Would somehow deter. These. Operations is untested. It is

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Operations is untested. It is unfounded. It is too optimistic to unfounded. It is too optimistic to be convincing. Were concerned, too, about the. Vast scope of this

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about the. Vast scope of this programme. The government has also. result. In.

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And I quote. More joined up public services, saving people time from. Having to. Restate personal details to

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Restate personal details to multiple departments here. The government seems. To me to. Conflate separate issues. More

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Conflate separate issues. More effective public services and. Kerbing illegal migration. They promise an end to.

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They promise an end to. Bureaucracy while simultaneously. intrusive. Systems of state. Surveillance in our.

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Surveillance in our. Nation's history. This is vast in its objectives, slight in its
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