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Thursday 11th December 2025
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12:41
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
Campbell, who I was delighted to see in your Lordships House last week and is definitely on the road to recovery. Lady Featherstone, who has ensured that we have a human voice always. And of course, lady, as their resolve in seeking justice for the victims of this scandal cannot be understated, and their generosity of time to make sure that I am fully abreast of such issues has been incredibly, personally beneficial. I'd also like to thank my opposite number, Lady Phin, for how constructive we have worked together on these issues to deliver for a community that needs to be that rightly has limited faith and trust in government after their experiences, and it is the onus on all of us in your Lordships' House to make sure that they know that we are listening to them.
My Lords, I'm going to look in detail at the comments of the noble Baroness Lloyd Brinton. Obviously, as she highlighted, they were very specific questions. I think it may be useful for us actually to have a meeting with officials, which I will invite all of those who have participated today to to attend. But I will also reflect on the points. I'm right in advance of the meeting. My Lords, we're here today first and foremost to debate the regulations, and I will prioritise the issues raised on the regulations in my response.
I'm aware of the other points that have been raised, and I'll do my best to address those too. But obviously I will reflect on Hansard if I've missed any of them. In terms of the specific points that have been raised, I'd like to start by the points raised by the noble Lady Baroness Finlay. These are incredibly important points, and she did worry me when she raised in advance. When she gave me the detail in advance. And I had worried that there was a gap that we had missed.
So to clarify for the record, I think it would be very useful. Someone infected as a child would receive injury, social impact, autonomy, care, and basic financial loss awards in the same way as an adult. They do not receive an additional financial loss award for the years where they were aged under 16. However, they will still receive an additional financial loss award for the years where they were or will be aged 16 or over, and I hope that gives a level of reassurance.
And with regards to the heartbreaking situation of when an infected child had passed away, a bereaved parent, a parent would receive injury, social impact and autonomy. Awards based on the infection and infection severity that that child had. This will not change based on how old their child was when they passed away. The awards to parents are higher where their child's infection has caused, or is expected to cause an early death in the future. This includes those infected with HIV or level three, four and five hepatitis infections.
They would also be the likely beneficiary of their child's estate under the under the law of intestacy. All such would likely be the recipient of whatever injury, social impact, autonomy, care and financial loss awards are due to the child's estate, so there is still a level of compensation, but I will make sure that I also write to the noble Lady so she has a copy in writing as well as from Hansard. I just want to touch on prioritisation because I think that is helpful in the context of what we're talking about it, our prioritising those nearing the end of their lives because community members and representatives have highlighted how important it is for these people to start their compensation claim.
Nearing the end of life means a person has been told by a doctor or medical professional that they might have less than 12 months to live. This could be due to any medical illness or condition. It does not need to be caused directly by an infection from contaminated blood. With regards to previous payments.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Intervene. The noble Lady has said that this is the case for those who are infected victims. those who are infected victims. Will the same rules be applied to affected victims who are nearing the end of their life, because many the end of their life, because many of them are. Many are dying now.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
of them are. Many are dying now. As I believe that to be the case, I will confirm to the noble Lady in I will confirm to the noble Lady in writing, given the issues that we're talking about, and I would not want to mislead anybody, but I believe that is also because approach for affected estate as well. With regards to previous payments that have been made, they are all pre the 31st of March ex-gratia. Only payments from the 31st of March count towards compensation calculations.
No payments from an r r compensation. But I will again in our conversations and reflecting on Hansard, write to the noble Lady in terms of the special category mechanism. Now noble Lady asked very specific points about the system, but I want to confirm, while I recognise the level of community concern about how the scheme considers and recognises the impacts captured by the special category mechanism, the matter of how the scheme recognises and compensates people for the impacts that make someone eligible for SCM is part of the public consultation and further regulations.
The consultation proposes that anyone currently receiving special category, mechanism or equivalent payments through the Infected Blood Support Screen schemes would now be automatically eligible for a Severe Health Condition Award. Everyone who receives SCM payments should have been contacted by ICA already, as part of the cohort of infected people registered with a support scheme. I hope that gives a level of reassurance, but I'm aware the noble Lady asked for more specific questions about that and I will revert. Moving on to inheritance tax.
Well, the noble Lady will appreciate that. Such was the statement from the Chancellor that no such meeting was required because the Chancellor there were private conversations happened about this. Reflecting on both the conversation about the issues raised in your Lordships' House and in the other place about how important this was. Representations were made and the Chancellor reflected that in the budget. And I am very, very pleased that she did so. So there was no such meeting in terms of a meeting that I had offered, but proved to be unnecessary.
I hope nobody could appreciate that it now proved to be unnecessary. In terms of the inheritance tax. Though raised by the noble Lady Baroness Finn, I think it would be helpful if I can just outline what we've actually agreed to. I know that the issue of inheritance tax policy has been widely raised by noble, by many members of your Lordships' House and in the community, and was of huge concern. Compensation payments made under the scheme will be exempt from income, capital gains and inheritance tax.
This is in line with tax exemptions for the first and second interim payments. At the budget. The government announced that further updates to Inheritance Tax disregard will be made to ensure that infected blood compensation payments are relieved from inheritance tax in cases where the original infected or affected person eligible for compensation has sadly died before the compensation is paid. I know this was an important issue for many members of the community, and I'm pleased that the government has been able to listen and make this change.
The changes mean inheritance tax credit will be automatically applied to the estate of the first beneficiary of the infected or affected person's estate, for example, this would mean that the children of a bereaved partner who inherits their infected partner's estate and then dies would not face an inheritance tax charge on the compensation they inherit. This will apply to compensations made before or after the 26th of November, 2025. The government has also made changes to the rules on gifting compensation payments. The change means that the first living recipients of compensation payments will have two years in which to give some or all of their compensation payment, without an inheritance tax charge.
This applies to gifts of compensation made on or after the compensation made on or after the 4th of December, 2025. Noble Lady Baroness Finn also raised the fact that no one should fall through the cracks. Noble Lady is absolutely right. It is working with those affected and infected to build an evidence base where where people are struggling to. And I think noble Lords would appreciate that as we move from the infected who are claiming to the effective, who have claims that some of the evidence base is going to become more challenging, and it is right that the that the case handlers are working will work with people to help support their evidence efforts.
With regard to the Tyrone Urch review, we're still reflecting and I look forward to discussing on the recommendations and working and talking to colleagues to see what support, because many of the recommendations were for them. I will report back in due course and to confirm these are the changes to these regulations will not slow us down. Where there are enhancements that have been made, those will be retrospectively applied to those people who've already received compensation without them having to come forward again.
And we don't believe that anything we're proposing at this point will slow anything down. With regard to the clear plan, noble Lords are aware that over the earlier this year I went to visit it. I met with their comms team. I think we can all agree that there have been significant communication challenges from during this process. I personally think having seen some of their new materials that they're using and the fact that they are using the different level of basic English standard now, as opposed to a level of science that that has made this much more accessible.
My Lords, we are talking about a number of people who have different experiences and personal and different personal circumstances. Comms is always going to be a challenge, but I want to put on record my thanks for both the women who are and they are overwhelmingly women who are answering the calls at the first instance, who are providing huge support, and for the the handlers that are based at ICA who are doing a very, very good job, having built an organisation from scratch since May last year to deliver over £2 billion of compensation, there is a long way to go, but I believe that they are on track.
My Lords, these regulations will action several of the inquiry's recommendations and bring them into force as quickly as we have been able to. But I am very clear that this is not the end of the process. These regulations are only one part of the government's response to the inquiry's additional report. The consultation that is currently away does not close until the 22nd of January, and I encourage all of those impacted by the scandal to respond, to ensure that your voice is part of those helping to guide us forward, and if there are problems in people being able to access the consultation, then please let us know.
And we will. And we are. We
**** Possible New Speaker ****
are making other mitigations, but if there are specific challenges, I would want to hear them. Thank you.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. Absolutely clear. The comment I was making was not about the consultation, which is a written one. It was about the fact that nobody with lived experience was invited to attend the round table
**** Possible New Speaker ****
meetings. Looking at the detail. But that has now been resolved.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
But that has now been resolved. Okay, I will explore. I will speak to officials and look to see what's actually happened. Many of the points raised today are subject to the consultation. I look forward to discussing these in more detail response. In the meantime, I hope the changes we are making today with these regulations demonstrate that we are fully committed to ensuring that justice is finally brought to a group of people who have waited far too long. My Lords, I beg to move here.
My Lords, I'm going to look in detail at the comments of the noble Baroness Lloyd Brinton. Obviously, as she highlighted, they were very specific questions. I think it may be useful for us actually to have a meeting with officials, which I will invite all of those who have participated today to to attend. But I will also reflect on the points. I'm right in advance of the meeting. My Lords, we're here today first and foremost to debate the regulations, and I will prioritise the issues raised on the regulations in my response.
I'm aware of the other points that have been raised, and I'll do my best to address those too. But obviously I will reflect on Hansard if I've missed any of them. In terms of the specific points that have been raised, I'd like to start by the points raised by the noble Lady Baroness Finlay. These are incredibly important points, and she did worry me when she raised in advance. When she gave me the detail in advance. And I had worried that there was a gap that we had missed.
So to clarify for the record, I think it would be very useful. Someone infected as a child would receive injury, social impact, autonomy, care, and basic financial loss awards in the same way as an adult. They do not receive an additional financial loss award for the years where they were aged under 16. However, they will still receive an additional financial loss award for the years where they were or will be aged 16 or over, and I hope that gives a level of reassurance.
And with regards to the heartbreaking situation of when an infected child had passed away, a bereaved parent, a parent would receive injury, social impact and autonomy. Awards based on the infection and infection severity that that child had. This will not change based on how old their child was when they passed away. The awards to parents are higher where their child's infection has caused, or is expected to cause an early death in the future. This includes those infected with HIV or level three, four and five hepatitis infections.
They would also be the likely beneficiary of their child's estate under the under the law of intestacy. All such would likely be the recipient of whatever injury, social impact, autonomy, care and financial loss awards are due to the child's estate, so there is still a level of compensation, but I will make sure that I also write to the noble Lady so she has a copy in writing as well as from Hansard. I just want to touch on prioritisation because I think that is helpful in the context of what we're talking about it, our prioritising those nearing the end of their lives because community members and representatives have highlighted how important it is for these people to start their compensation claim.
Nearing the end of life means a person has been told by a doctor or medical professional that they might have less than 12 months to live. This could be due to any medical illness or condition. It does not need to be caused directly by an infection from contaminated blood. With regards to previous payments.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Intervene. The noble Lady has said that this is the case for those who are infected victims. those who are infected victims. Will the same rules be applied to affected victims who are nearing the end of their life, because many the end of their life, because many of them are. Many are dying now.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
of them are. Many are dying now. As I believe that to be the case, I will confirm to the noble Lady in I will confirm to the noble Lady in writing, given the issues that we're talking about, and I would not want to mislead anybody, but I believe that is also because approach for affected estate as well. With regards to previous payments that have been made, they are all pre the 31st of March ex-gratia. Only payments from the 31st of March count towards compensation calculations.
No payments from an r r compensation. But I will again in our conversations and reflecting on Hansard, write to the noble Lady in terms of the special category mechanism. Now noble Lady asked very specific points about the system, but I want to confirm, while I recognise the level of community concern about how the scheme considers and recognises the impacts captured by the special category mechanism, the matter of how the scheme recognises and compensates people for the impacts that make someone eligible for SCM is part of the public consultation and further regulations.
The consultation proposes that anyone currently receiving special category, mechanism or equivalent payments through the Infected Blood Support Screen schemes would now be automatically eligible for a Severe Health Condition Award. Everyone who receives SCM payments should have been contacted by ICA already, as part of the cohort of infected people registered with a support scheme. I hope that gives a level of reassurance, but I'm aware the noble Lady asked for more specific questions about that and I will revert. Moving on to inheritance tax.
Well, the noble Lady will appreciate that. Such was the statement from the Chancellor that no such meeting was required because the Chancellor there were private conversations happened about this. Reflecting on both the conversation about the issues raised in your Lordships' House and in the other place about how important this was. Representations were made and the Chancellor reflected that in the budget. And I am very, very pleased that she did so. So there was no such meeting in terms of a meeting that I had offered, but proved to be unnecessary.
I hope nobody could appreciate that it now proved to be unnecessary. In terms of the inheritance tax. Though raised by the noble Lady Baroness Finn, I think it would be helpful if I can just outline what we've actually agreed to. I know that the issue of inheritance tax policy has been widely raised by noble, by many members of your Lordships' House and in the community, and was of huge concern. Compensation payments made under the scheme will be exempt from income, capital gains and inheritance tax.
This is in line with tax exemptions for the first and second interim payments. At the budget. The government announced that further updates to Inheritance Tax disregard will be made to ensure that infected blood compensation payments are relieved from inheritance tax in cases where the original infected or affected person eligible for compensation has sadly died before the compensation is paid. I know this was an important issue for many members of the community, and I'm pleased that the government has been able to listen and make this change.
The changes mean inheritance tax credit will be automatically applied to the estate of the first beneficiary of the infected or affected person's estate, for example, this would mean that the children of a bereaved partner who inherits their infected partner's estate and then dies would not face an inheritance tax charge on the compensation they inherit. This will apply to compensations made before or after the 26th of November, 2025. The government has also made changes to the rules on gifting compensation payments. The change means that the first living recipients of compensation payments will have two years in which to give some or all of their compensation payment, without an inheritance tax charge.
This applies to gifts of compensation made on or after the compensation made on or after the 4th of December, 2025. Noble Lady Baroness Finn also raised the fact that no one should fall through the cracks. Noble Lady is absolutely right. It is working with those affected and infected to build an evidence base where where people are struggling to. And I think noble Lords would appreciate that as we move from the infected who are claiming to the effective, who have claims that some of the evidence base is going to become more challenging, and it is right that the that the case handlers are working will work with people to help support their evidence efforts.
With regard to the Tyrone Urch review, we're still reflecting and I look forward to discussing on the recommendations and working and talking to colleagues to see what support, because many of the recommendations were for them. I will report back in due course and to confirm these are the changes to these regulations will not slow us down. Where there are enhancements that have been made, those will be retrospectively applied to those people who've already received compensation without them having to come forward again.
And we don't believe that anything we're proposing at this point will slow anything down. With regard to the clear plan, noble Lords are aware that over the earlier this year I went to visit it. I met with their comms team. I think we can all agree that there have been significant communication challenges from during this process. I personally think having seen some of their new materials that they're using and the fact that they are using the different level of basic English standard now, as opposed to a level of science that that has made this much more accessible.
My Lords, we are talking about a number of people who have different experiences and personal and different personal circumstances. Comms is always going to be a challenge, but I want to put on record my thanks for both the women who are and they are overwhelmingly women who are answering the calls at the first instance, who are providing huge support, and for the the handlers that are based at ICA who are doing a very, very good job, having built an organisation from scratch since May last year to deliver over £2 billion of compensation, there is a long way to go, but I believe that they are on track.
My Lords, these regulations will action several of the inquiry's recommendations and bring them into force as quickly as we have been able to. But I am very clear that this is not the end of the process. These regulations are only one part of the government's response to the inquiry's additional report. The consultation that is currently away does not close until the 22nd of January, and I encourage all of those impacted by the scandal to respond, to ensure that your voice is part of those helping to guide us forward, and if there are problems in people being able to access the consultation, then please let us know.
And we will. And we are. We
**** Possible New Speaker ****
are making other mitigations, but if there are specific challenges, I would want to hear them. Thank you.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. Absolutely clear. The comment I was making was not about the consultation, which is a written one. It was about the fact that nobody with lived experience was invited to attend the round table
**** Possible New Speaker ****
meetings. Looking at the detail. But that has now been resolved.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
But that has now been resolved. Okay, I will explore. I will speak to officials and look to see what's actually happened. Many of the points raised today are subject to the consultation. I look forward to discussing these in more detail response. In the meantime, I hope the changes we are making today with these regulations demonstrate that we are fully committed to ensuring that justice is finally brought to a group of people who have waited far too long. My Lords, I beg to move here.
12:53
Short debate: Plans to publish a strategy for a wheelchair provision by NHS and social care services
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Short debate: Plans to publish a strategy for a wheelchair provision by NHS and social care services
The question is that this motion be agreed to. As many as of that opinion will say content. Contrary, not content. The contents have it. not content. The contents have it. We move now to the next business question for short debate strategy for wheelchair and community for wheelchair and community equipment provision Lord Hunt of Kings Heath.
12:53
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Labour)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Labour)
My Lords, I'm very grateful to noble Lords who taking part in this debate, and I particularly want to welcome the noble Baroness Gerada who is making her maiden speech. She has, of course, been a She has, of course, been a absolutely brilliant president and chair of the Royal College of GPS. chair of the Royal College of GPS. But if I can say so, more than that, an excellent GP and brilliant champion of primary care and the NHS, and it's a pleasure to welcome her to this debate.
I shall also inform the House of my patronage of the Wheelchair Alliance and also the Healthcare Supply Association, and my daughter Philippa works for backup, which supports people with spinal injury. My Lords, the provision of wheelchair and community equipment in this country for disabled people is, to put it quite bluntly, a disgrace. The nub of the problem was described in The Guardian on the 2nd of December by the distinguished academic doctor, Paul Sager. He was paralysed in a climbing accident and described how inconsiderate, illogical and incompetent many of the current wheelchair providers are.
He talked about the bureaucratic barriers, organisational inflexibilities and patchiness of the services he encountered. I thought particularly telling for me were the words of a physiotherapist he quoted, who had been working with people with spinal cord injury for more than 20 years. Many of her clients are discharged from hospital, she said, in heavy manual wheelchairs that an able bodied person would struggle to push frequently. They're the wrong type or size and at the very least are uncomfortable often, she said, people who have impaired functions in their upper limbs cannot push these wheelchairs themselves and become effectively housebound, in some cases confined to their bed.
Sometimes they develop complications from poorly prescribed wheelchairs, and it lands them back in hospital on average, she added, people wait at least ten months after discharge before being assessed, let alone getting the wheelchair that is right for them. Unbelievably, some local wheelchair services apparently refused to assess a patient until they have left hospital. So much, my Lords, for integrated care, which I thought integrated care boards were established to actually achieve. Now, Doctor Sage's experience, of course, is not unusual.
The Wheelchair Alliance has produced convincing evidence to show how inconsistent and under-resourced wheelchair services are. Over 50% of providers come from the private sector, and there are real worries regarding the financial frailty of many of them. With a system that prioritises lowest initial cost over long term value and reliability, there are no consistent national standards, no independent regulation, few clear paths for users seeking repairs, reporting thoughts or making complaints. As a result, many disabled people experience long waiting times, delays in hospital discharge, loss of independence, social inclusion and tragically avoidable deterioration in health and well-being.
My Lord, it's the same dismal picture with community equipment embracing hoists, scrap rails, harnesses, medical beds and a wide range of essential medical products. The all party Group for Access to Disability Equipment has recently reported on the systematic crisis in the sector. 60% 63% of carers, 55% of equipment users feel that services are getting worse, not better, and the all party group concluded the system's inconsistent, underinvested, fragmented and lacking leadership. Now, government policy is that local authorities and integrated care boards are share responsibility for community equipment.
In practice, this means a fragmented, inconsistent delivery equipment providers describe a landscape in which every authority works differently without alignment or accountability, so the consequence is a postcode lottery, with 74% of equipment providers aware of patients experiencing delayed hospital discharge due to unavailability of community equipment. And I would argue, and I'm looking forward to Baroness Brinton speech later on this, I would argue that community equipment is almost the silent crisis at the root of the challenges we face in providing community and social care.
And the tragedy is it would be so easy to sort this out if there was a will to do it now, my Lords, in April, the government published the Wheelchair Quality Framework to assist integrated care boards and will share service providers deliver high quality provision. I have read it. It's welcome. But my Lords, the problem is, first of all, its guidance. It lacks binding universal standards, does not guarantee equitable provision across all of the country. It does not address systematic under-investment.
It does not mandate robust data reporting. It lacks external oversight or performance management. And so there is no statutory legally guaranteed entitlement, ensuring that every person in need receives the right wheelchair or community equipment in a timely fashion. My Lords, what is required? I am absolutely convinced that we need a national strategy, underpinned by the appointment of a national clinical director, accountable to Ministers and backed up by strong performance management and the remit of the director, should embrace community equipment as well as wheelchairs.
Miles what that needs to be underpinned by a vision, a national, comprehensive vision of what a high quality wheelchair and community equipment provision should look like, and the government should embrace the report of the all party group on access to Disability equipment by introducing a dedicated national strategy for community equipment and wheelchair provision. Users must be around the top table with a real input into policy, a nationally defined eligibility and quality standard for wheelchairs and community equipment uniform across all regions, and removing the current postcode lottery, a legally guaranteed entitlement to appropriate equipment for all those assessed as needing them.
A long term funding model that accounts for rising costs of equipment, manufacturing, maintenance, energy, staff and supply chain resilience, and a simple, user friendly service for wheelchair users and carers to report issues, requests, papers, make complaints or feedback and be heard on procurement. We need to shift from lowest cost procurement to value based procurement, which is happening, my Lords, in general procurement, it ought to be extended to wheelchairs and community equipment and my Lords for community equipment itself.
National training standards for clinicians, commissioners, OTS, other professionals and suppliers involved in equipment provision. I don't think anyone in this debate is going to argue that wheelchair and community equipment is absolutely woeful. The tragedy, as I've said before, is that it's so easily sorted. If the government were prepared to say we're going to sort it, we're going to have a national, we're going to do what I've suggested in relation to have national leadership. And I lost so many of the issues in community care, and the blockages would be dealt with if this were really taken seriously.
We all know what happens. It's not regarded as at all serious by either the NHS or local authorities and many, many people suffer as a result. My Lords, I beg to move.
I shall also inform the House of my patronage of the Wheelchair Alliance and also the Healthcare Supply Association, and my daughter Philippa works for backup, which supports people with spinal injury. My Lords, the provision of wheelchair and community equipment in this country for disabled people is, to put it quite bluntly, a disgrace. The nub of the problem was described in The Guardian on the 2nd of December by the distinguished academic doctor, Paul Sager. He was paralysed in a climbing accident and described how inconsiderate, illogical and incompetent many of the current wheelchair providers are.
He talked about the bureaucratic barriers, organisational inflexibilities and patchiness of the services he encountered. I thought particularly telling for me were the words of a physiotherapist he quoted, who had been working with people with spinal cord injury for more than 20 years. Many of her clients are discharged from hospital, she said, in heavy manual wheelchairs that an able bodied person would struggle to push frequently. They're the wrong type or size and at the very least are uncomfortable often, she said, people who have impaired functions in their upper limbs cannot push these wheelchairs themselves and become effectively housebound, in some cases confined to their bed.
Sometimes they develop complications from poorly prescribed wheelchairs, and it lands them back in hospital on average, she added, people wait at least ten months after discharge before being assessed, let alone getting the wheelchair that is right for them. Unbelievably, some local wheelchair services apparently refused to assess a patient until they have left hospital. So much, my Lords, for integrated care, which I thought integrated care boards were established to actually achieve. Now, Doctor Sage's experience, of course, is not unusual.
The Wheelchair Alliance has produced convincing evidence to show how inconsistent and under-resourced wheelchair services are. Over 50% of providers come from the private sector, and there are real worries regarding the financial frailty of many of them. With a system that prioritises lowest initial cost over long term value and reliability, there are no consistent national standards, no independent regulation, few clear paths for users seeking repairs, reporting thoughts or making complaints. As a result, many disabled people experience long waiting times, delays in hospital discharge, loss of independence, social inclusion and tragically avoidable deterioration in health and well-being.
My Lord, it's the same dismal picture with community equipment embracing hoists, scrap rails, harnesses, medical beds and a wide range of essential medical products. The all party Group for Access to Disability Equipment has recently reported on the systematic crisis in the sector. 60% 63% of carers, 55% of equipment users feel that services are getting worse, not better, and the all party group concluded the system's inconsistent, underinvested, fragmented and lacking leadership. Now, government policy is that local authorities and integrated care boards are share responsibility for community equipment.
In practice, this means a fragmented, inconsistent delivery equipment providers describe a landscape in which every authority works differently without alignment or accountability, so the consequence is a postcode lottery, with 74% of equipment providers aware of patients experiencing delayed hospital discharge due to unavailability of community equipment. And I would argue, and I'm looking forward to Baroness Brinton speech later on this, I would argue that community equipment is almost the silent crisis at the root of the challenges we face in providing community and social care.
And the tragedy is it would be so easy to sort this out if there was a will to do it now, my Lords, in April, the government published the Wheelchair Quality Framework to assist integrated care boards and will share service providers deliver high quality provision. I have read it. It's welcome. But my Lords, the problem is, first of all, its guidance. It lacks binding universal standards, does not guarantee equitable provision across all of the country. It does not address systematic under-investment.
It does not mandate robust data reporting. It lacks external oversight or performance management. And so there is no statutory legally guaranteed entitlement, ensuring that every person in need receives the right wheelchair or community equipment in a timely fashion. My Lords, what is required? I am absolutely convinced that we need a national strategy, underpinned by the appointment of a national clinical director, accountable to Ministers and backed up by strong performance management and the remit of the director, should embrace community equipment as well as wheelchairs.
Miles what that needs to be underpinned by a vision, a national, comprehensive vision of what a high quality wheelchair and community equipment provision should look like, and the government should embrace the report of the all party group on access to Disability equipment by introducing a dedicated national strategy for community equipment and wheelchair provision. Users must be around the top table with a real input into policy, a nationally defined eligibility and quality standard for wheelchairs and community equipment uniform across all regions, and removing the current postcode lottery, a legally guaranteed entitlement to appropriate equipment for all those assessed as needing them.
A long term funding model that accounts for rising costs of equipment, manufacturing, maintenance, energy, staff and supply chain resilience, and a simple, user friendly service for wheelchair users and carers to report issues, requests, papers, make complaints or feedback and be heard on procurement. We need to shift from lowest cost procurement to value based procurement, which is happening, my Lords, in general procurement, it ought to be extended to wheelchairs and community equipment and my Lords for community equipment itself.
National training standards for clinicians, commissioners, OTS, other professionals and suppliers involved in equipment provision. I don't think anyone in this debate is going to argue that wheelchair and community equipment is absolutely woeful. The tragedy, as I've said before, is that it's so easily sorted. If the government were prepared to say we're going to sort it, we're going to have a national, we're going to do what I've suggested in relation to have national leadership. And I lost so many of the issues in community care, and the blockages would be dealt with if this were really taken seriously.
We all know what happens. It's not regarded as at all serious by either the NHS or local authorities and many, many people suffer as a result. My Lords, I beg to move.
13:01
Lord Shinkwin (Conservative)
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Lord Shinkwin (Conservative)
My Lords. the noble Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and I thank him firstly for securing this important debate. Secondly, for his work on improving health outcomes, which he has been involved with for probably far longer than he cares to remember. And thirdly, for choosing to champion wheelchair services in which I should declare an interest as a user. I trust his noble friend. The Minister will bear in mind the noble Lords tenacity in her response, which we look forward to hearing as we do the maiden speech of Baroness Baroness Gerada.
None of us will ever forget the trepidation with which we each faced the prospect of addressing the Lordships House for the first time. There may be issues which divide us, but the nerve wracking experience and making our own maiden speech say it into each member's memory surely unites us. I have no doubt that we will all be rooting for her. May Lords are referred to the Lord's tenacity. It's much needed, not least because, as he very helpfully outlined, the absence of a strategic approach on wheelchair services will be costing the NHS an awful lot of money, money it cannot afford to waste.
So in a little time I have now put three questions to the noble Baroness Minster. She'll no doubt be familiar with the finding of the Appg for Access to Disability Equipment Support that the Community and Medical Equipment system is, to quote in crisis with the Wheelchair Alliance's recent report, Wheelchair Provision How to Drive Effective Change, which details the costly consequences of inadequate and inconsistent provision which the Lord Lord Hanson mentioned, including delays in hospital discharge, loss of independence, social isolation was the inevitable impact on mental health and, of course, avoidable deterioration in health and wellbeing, a point the noble Lords made in his excellent speech.
So would she agree with me that that is the avoidable? And would she further agree that it is? If it is avoidable, then we are putting our nose to spite our face. If we allow ICBs to misrepresent as a saving what is actually in the strategic big picture, a completely false economy which is costing the NHS and indeed the taxpayer far too much money. And my third and last question is this Frontier Economics setting out a few reports, the value of the wheelchair estimated the potential value.
I would say saving that high quality wheelchair provision to provide wheelchair users and crucially, society. Will she undertake to put that thinking at the heart of any strategy? My Lords, the current situation is untenable because it does not make economic sense. That is why the noble Lords call for a strategy deserves to be heard and deserves to be acted upon urgently.
None of us will ever forget the trepidation with which we each faced the prospect of addressing the Lordships House for the first time. There may be issues which divide us, but the nerve wracking experience and making our own maiden speech say it into each member's memory surely unites us. I have no doubt that we will all be rooting for her. May Lords are referred to the Lord's tenacity. It's much needed, not least because, as he very helpfully outlined, the absence of a strategic approach on wheelchair services will be costing the NHS an awful lot of money, money it cannot afford to waste.
So in a little time I have now put three questions to the noble Baroness Minster. She'll no doubt be familiar with the finding of the Appg for Access to Disability Equipment Support that the Community and Medical Equipment system is, to quote in crisis with the Wheelchair Alliance's recent report, Wheelchair Provision How to Drive Effective Change, which details the costly consequences of inadequate and inconsistent provision which the Lord Lord Hanson mentioned, including delays in hospital discharge, loss of independence, social isolation was the inevitable impact on mental health and, of course, avoidable deterioration in health and wellbeing, a point the noble Lords made in his excellent speech.
So would she agree with me that that is the avoidable? And would she further agree that it is? If it is avoidable, then we are putting our nose to spite our face. If we allow ICBs to misrepresent as a saving what is actually in the strategic big picture, a completely false economy which is costing the NHS and indeed the taxpayer far too much money. And my third and last question is this Frontier Economics setting out a few reports, the value of the wheelchair estimated the potential value.
I would say saving that high quality wheelchair provision to provide wheelchair users and crucially, society. Will she undertake to put that thinking at the heart of any strategy? My Lords, the current situation is untenable because it does not make economic sense. That is why the noble Lords call for a strategy deserves to be heard and deserves to be acted upon urgently.
13:05
Lord Rennard (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Rennard (Liberal Democrat)
Yeah. Well said, well said. >> My Lords. I declare my interest. >> As the conference. Chair of the National Association of Equipment Providers for the last five years. Providers for the last five years. Before that, for ten years I was director of communications for the British Healthcare Trades Association, representing manufacturers and suppliers of wheelchairs and assistive technology, upholding industry standards, promoting innovation, and supporting purchasers and users who are code of practice. My personal interest began as a teenager, pushing my mother in a second hand wheelchair bought through an advert in the Liverpool Echo.
There was no assessment, training or support in the 1970s. Much has improved in the 50 years since then. Yet the Wheelchair Alliance report in December 2023 showed that wheelchair provision was varying very widely. They said then that whilst wheelchair users in some areas receive an excellent service, users in other areas may experience significant delays. Inappropriately tailored equipment, a lack of training and or a slow response to breakdowns. The report also showed how high quality provision can improve lives and deliver financial benefits.
Wheelchairs are not just medical devices, they're gateways to independence, inclusion, work, education and activity. Poor provision restricts life chances, limits employment and can harm the health of carers. Pressures in wheelchair services are mirrored across community equipment, from hoists and specialist beds to bathing aids and home adaptations. The problems are systemic, not just localised. The Appg for Access to Disability Equipment found the delays are driven by staff shortages, particularly of occupational therapists, supply chain and recycling constraints, and wide inconsistencies between local authorities.
At the root of this crisis is weak oversight and blurred accountability between local authorities and integrated care boards, driving wide regional variation. The provision is fragmented and inconsistent, so I also hope that the government will now drive forward a national strategy with clear structures for provision. I agree with the Wheelchair Alliance that all integrated care boards must adopt the quality framework for wheelchair provision and the model service specification when commissioning services. I also support the call by the Appg for Access to Disability Equipment for a dedicated national strategy for Community equipment, alongside a dedicated DHSC Minister to oversee delivery.
This would ensure that needs are appropriately and fairly met everywhere. I welcome the government's wheelchair quality framework, but it doesn't go nearly far enough and I also welcome increased use of personalised budgets. But providers and users both really need to understand these budgets to ensure real choice and best provision, giving users more control over their daily lives. Fundamentally, what we need to address is balancing the costs of the provision of wheelchairs and community equipment with long term benefits, including preventing accidents, reducing the need for healthcare intervention, future enabling people with disabilities to work, pay taxes and reduce their dependency on benefits, whilst at the same time significantly increasing emotional well-being for many families.
There was no assessment, training or support in the 1970s. Much has improved in the 50 years since then. Yet the Wheelchair Alliance report in December 2023 showed that wheelchair provision was varying very widely. They said then that whilst wheelchair users in some areas receive an excellent service, users in other areas may experience significant delays. Inappropriately tailored equipment, a lack of training and or a slow response to breakdowns. The report also showed how high quality provision can improve lives and deliver financial benefits.
Wheelchairs are not just medical devices, they're gateways to independence, inclusion, work, education and activity. Poor provision restricts life chances, limits employment and can harm the health of carers. Pressures in wheelchair services are mirrored across community equipment, from hoists and specialist beds to bathing aids and home adaptations. The problems are systemic, not just localised. The Appg for Access to Disability Equipment found the delays are driven by staff shortages, particularly of occupational therapists, supply chain and recycling constraints, and wide inconsistencies between local authorities.
At the root of this crisis is weak oversight and blurred accountability between local authorities and integrated care boards, driving wide regional variation. The provision is fragmented and inconsistent, so I also hope that the government will now drive forward a national strategy with clear structures for provision. I agree with the Wheelchair Alliance that all integrated care boards must adopt the quality framework for wheelchair provision and the model service specification when commissioning services. I also support the call by the Appg for Access to Disability Equipment for a dedicated national strategy for Community equipment, alongside a dedicated DHSC Minister to oversee delivery.
This would ensure that needs are appropriately and fairly met everywhere. I welcome the government's wheelchair quality framework, but it doesn't go nearly far enough and I also welcome increased use of personalised budgets. But providers and users both really need to understand these budgets to ensure real choice and best provision, giving users more control over their daily lives. Fundamentally, what we need to address is balancing the costs of the provision of wheelchairs and community equipment with long term benefits, including preventing accidents, reducing the need for healthcare intervention, future enabling people with disabilities to work, pay taxes and reduce their dependency on benefits, whilst at the same time significantly increasing emotional well-being for many families.
13:09
Lord Harries of Pentregarth (Crossbench)
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Lord Harries of Pentregarth (Crossbench)
I'd like to thank the noble Lord, >> I'd like to thank the noble Lord, Lord hunt for introducing this debate, which I think is of very great importance indeed. I am the main carer for my wife, who is very severely disabled, and I've calculated that we probably need at least nine pieces of equipment in order to lead any kind of reasonable life. She has a hospital bed to stop her having sores, a hoist to get her out of bed, a commode wheelchair to wheel her to the stairlift, a turner to actually get her onto the chairlift, a chairlift to take her downstairs, another turner to get her onto the commode lift, and the commode lift to take her into the bathroom, in addition to a lifting wheel chair.
In addition, of course, special amputations in the in the bathroom with rails, and so on. A powered wheelchair and a wheelchair. Because we can only get into the GP with a small handrail, at least three ramps in order to get her out of the house. My Lords, we are very fortunate. This is a good story. We have what we want in order to rid a a decent life, partly provided and partly purchased ourselves. But it brings to my mind the nightmare, the total nightmare of people who do not have that equipment or equipment breaks down and they're not able to get emergency help in order to, to, to, to mend it.
And as we've already heard from the noble Lord Wharton and other people, there is very widespread dissatisfaction with people who need equipment because of frustrations and, and delays and, and bureaucracy. And I won't repeat those figures, but I was particularly moved and I think perhaps others have been moved also by the story of Reece Porter, who had cerebral palsy, and who was without essential equipment, including a hoist and home adaptations for two years, my Lord, for two years.
And during this time, apparently his parents had to help him use a commode seat in his bedroom and drag him into the family bathroom on a towel once a week, putting them all at risk of injury. And when he needed surgery, there was no immediate help to have a hoist in order to to get him out of bed. To do do that. This equipment for Reece and countless others is critical not only to support day to day activities, but also to ensure essential medical treatment can take place, avoiding further complications.
My Lords, such delays are not just occasional. The crisis impacting community equipment causing months, sometimes years of delay for assessment and medical kit is systematic rather than down to individual actors. And the main reason, as we've already heard, my Lord, but it is worth repeating, is that there is a lack of national oversight. Statutory responsibilities have left, or local authorities and ICBs, which is creating inconsistent and patchy provision. And moreover, confusion over who ultimately is responsible for this essential service.
Moreover, my Lords, the situation is likely to get worse with an ageing population and the rise of chronic health conditions, the demand for mobility aids of various kinds is going to increase, and it's vitally important for the government to act now before the situation deteriorates even further. So I'd like to ask the Minister, in the light of the APPG, for access to disability equipments, finding that there is no national strategy, no coherent commissioning framework and no single accountable Minister for Community equipment, will the government now commit to developing a national strategy for both community equipment and wheelchair services, overseen by a named Minister with clear responsibility for delivery?
In addition, of course, special amputations in the in the bathroom with rails, and so on. A powered wheelchair and a wheelchair. Because we can only get into the GP with a small handrail, at least three ramps in order to get her out of the house. My Lords, we are very fortunate. This is a good story. We have what we want in order to rid a a decent life, partly provided and partly purchased ourselves. But it brings to my mind the nightmare, the total nightmare of people who do not have that equipment or equipment breaks down and they're not able to get emergency help in order to, to, to, to mend it.
And as we've already heard from the noble Lord Wharton and other people, there is very widespread dissatisfaction with people who need equipment because of frustrations and, and delays and, and bureaucracy. And I won't repeat those figures, but I was particularly moved and I think perhaps others have been moved also by the story of Reece Porter, who had cerebral palsy, and who was without essential equipment, including a hoist and home adaptations for two years, my Lord, for two years.
And during this time, apparently his parents had to help him use a commode seat in his bedroom and drag him into the family bathroom on a towel once a week, putting them all at risk of injury. And when he needed surgery, there was no immediate help to have a hoist in order to to get him out of bed. To do do that. This equipment for Reece and countless others is critical not only to support day to day activities, but also to ensure essential medical treatment can take place, avoiding further complications.
My Lords, such delays are not just occasional. The crisis impacting community equipment causing months, sometimes years of delay for assessment and medical kit is systematic rather than down to individual actors. And the main reason, as we've already heard, my Lord, but it is worth repeating, is that there is a lack of national oversight. Statutory responsibilities have left, or local authorities and ICBs, which is creating inconsistent and patchy provision. And moreover, confusion over who ultimately is responsible for this essential service.
Moreover, my Lords, the situation is likely to get worse with an ageing population and the rise of chronic health conditions, the demand for mobility aids of various kinds is going to increase, and it's vitally important for the government to act now before the situation deteriorates even further. So I'd like to ask the Minister, in the light of the APPG, for access to disability equipments, finding that there is no national strategy, no coherent commissioning framework and no single accountable Minister for Community equipment, will the government now commit to developing a national strategy for both community equipment and wheelchair services, overseen by a named Minister with clear responsibility for delivery?
13:13
Baroness Gerada (Crossbench)
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Baroness Gerada (Crossbench)
Here are. >> Here are. >> My Lords. I rise for the first time with gratitude, humility and, if I'm honest, a certain amount of surprise until I remember how hard it is to see a GP these days and having me in the house at the solves that problem. It's though a great honour, of course, to stand here, particularly in such a significant debate that concerns dignity, fairness and independence. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of the Shaws and Lord Patel of Bradford, who so kindly introduced me.
I also thank the staff of this House for their warm welcome, for their patience with my many questions and for their kindness. So a little bit about me. I have Maltese heritage and I was born in Nigeria where my father worked as a doctor. My parents arrived in this country in the early 1960s as proud citizens of the Commonwealth. They taught me that success rests on courage, hard work and a commitment to the quiet dignity of public service.
My father became a general practitioner in the NHS. His surgery was the front room of our home. Patients have therefore been part of my life from a very early age. As a young girl, dad would take me to home visits to the community still bearing the scars of the Second World War. Through him, I learnt what general practice truly involves not merely medicine, but community, continuity and compassion, and that the measure of a doctor lies in not just what he knows, but in how he or she cares.
I have now worked in the NHS for more than 50 years, beginning as a Saturday girl in our local pharmacy in 1990. After completing my training in psychiatry, I became a GP in Kennington and I have lived and worked in a community I serve ever since. Being well known in the area has its advantages. I recall my bicycle being stolen during a home visit the next day. It was returned to the surgery with a note reading sorry doc, it won't happen again.
Of course, it can never happen when I visit this house, as my little Brompton has two armed policemen guarding it every day. Thank you officers. My patients have included the great, the good and given that I work in the Division bell occasionally the difficult. My very first patient was a young woman who suffered a stillbirth. Decades later, I look after her children and now their children. To that continuity seems lives unfold across time, gives general practice its unique moral and social power.
It allows us to see people as whole human beings, not as isolated organs or diagnoses. We are interpreters of experience, translators of suffering and witnesses of change. We observe how illness is linked with housing, with poverty, with work, and the myriad pressures of everyday life. This is not the soft end of medicine. It is its foundation, the undramatic, continuous care that underpins the entire National Health Service. GPS carry out more than 300 million patient consultations every year.
80% of all NHS contacts, for less than 10% of its budget. Most of our encounters end without referral or admission or prescription. When general practice thrives, the whole system does. It prevents illness, supports self-care, protects hospitals from becoming overwhelmed, and saves money. And where the story of our NHS begins anew every day. My Lords, it is a privilege to be amongst the very few GPS admitted to this noble House. And now that I have completed my my maiden speech, my first surgery is tomorrow, ten minutes only.
And only one problem allowed. My Lords, thank you very much. It's a great honour to listen to Baroness Gerada, and to have enjoyed a small sample of the immense knowledge that she
I also thank the staff of this House for their warm welcome, for their patience with my many questions and for their kindness. So a little bit about me. I have Maltese heritage and I was born in Nigeria where my father worked as a doctor. My parents arrived in this country in the early 1960s as proud citizens of the Commonwealth. They taught me that success rests on courage, hard work and a commitment to the quiet dignity of public service.
My father became a general practitioner in the NHS. His surgery was the front room of our home. Patients have therefore been part of my life from a very early age. As a young girl, dad would take me to home visits to the community still bearing the scars of the Second World War. Through him, I learnt what general practice truly involves not merely medicine, but community, continuity and compassion, and that the measure of a doctor lies in not just what he knows, but in how he or she cares.
I have now worked in the NHS for more than 50 years, beginning as a Saturday girl in our local pharmacy in 1990. After completing my training in psychiatry, I became a GP in Kennington and I have lived and worked in a community I serve ever since. Being well known in the area has its advantages. I recall my bicycle being stolen during a home visit the next day. It was returned to the surgery with a note reading sorry doc, it won't happen again.
Of course, it can never happen when I visit this house, as my little Brompton has two armed policemen guarding it every day. Thank you officers. My patients have included the great, the good and given that I work in the Division bell occasionally the difficult. My very first patient was a young woman who suffered a stillbirth. Decades later, I look after her children and now their children. To that continuity seems lives unfold across time, gives general practice its unique moral and social power.
It allows us to see people as whole human beings, not as isolated organs or diagnoses. We are interpreters of experience, translators of suffering and witnesses of change. We observe how illness is linked with housing, with poverty, with work, and the myriad pressures of everyday life. This is not the soft end of medicine. It is its foundation, the undramatic, continuous care that underpins the entire National Health Service. GPS carry out more than 300 million patient consultations every year.
80% of all NHS contacts, for less than 10% of its budget. Most of our encounters end without referral or admission or prescription. When general practice thrives, the whole system does. It prevents illness, supports self-care, protects hospitals from becoming overwhelmed, and saves money. And where the story of our NHS begins anew every day. My Lords, it is a privilege to be amongst the very few GPS admitted to this noble House. And now that I have completed my my maiden speech, my first surgery is tomorrow, ten minutes only.
And only one problem allowed. My Lords, thank you very much. It's a great honour to listen to Baroness Gerada, and to have enjoyed a small sample of the immense knowledge that she
13:18
Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (Crossbench)
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Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (Crossbench)
will bring to this house. It is, however, somewhat ironic that I am being asked to talk about her in a time limited debate, when it's time limited debate, when it's clear possible to fill a whole hour with her public achievements and contributions to public life. As we contributions to public life. As we heard, Baroness Gerada qualified as a doctor in 1983, trained in psychiatry in the Maudsley in psychiatry in the Maudsley in Bethlehem and then as a GP in South London, her career has consistently sat at the intersection of general practice and mental health, including addiction, gambling, harm and, critically, the well-being of the healthcare workforce itself.
From 2008 to 22, she founded and led the NHS Practitioner Health Service, now the largest confidential mental health and addiction service for health professionals in the world, supporting 50,000 clinicians across England and Scotland. From 2019 to 25, she co-chaired the NHS Assembly, helping to bridge policy, policy and patient experience at a national level. Ever the entrepreneur, it seems she also co-developed Econsult, now used by around a third of GP practices, and she continues to lead the primary care gambling service and serves as patron of Doctors in Distress.
And as if this was not all enough, she has been Chair and president of the Royal College of General Practitioners, only the second woman to hold both roles. But before I end, I must mention perhaps her most remarkable career high her stint as a stand up comedian. In the show, she co-wrote 50 Minutes to Save the NHS, which should perhaps have been a clue as to how effective she would be in a time limited debate on an important subject. Baroness Gerada brings not only expertise but wit to this House, and I have no doubt she'll make an important and exceptional contribution.
We often file wheelchair and community equipment services under health or social care. In reality, they are ought to be part of our national employment infrastructure. When services fail, people don't just lose mobility, they lose their ability to contribute. The numbers tell this story starkly. Only around 53% of working age disabled people are in employment, compared with 82% of non-disabled people. And it's even wider for young disabled people. As a recent House of Lords report on the transition to work made clear, 1.2 million of people rely on a wheelchair and many more on other pieces of equipment.
So when these systems fail, we're not just talking about inconvenience, we're talking about large parts of the labour market losing the tools that make work possible for many disabled people, daily life and work depend on reliable access to the right equipment, wheelchair seating, mobility aids, home adaptations, assistive tech when systems slip. When assessments take months, repairs take weeks. The consequences are immediate. Parliamentary inquiries have described these failures as systemic. As we've heard charities report people stuck at home with unsafe chairs or unable to start new jobs because their equipment simply hasn't arrived.
Services designed to enable independence become gatekeepers to your ability to work. This is an economic cost. We rarely acknowledge if someone is unable to work purely because essential equipment is delayed or incorrect, the ripple effect hits every public budget. They're less likely to earn, less likely to pay tax to progress in their career, more likely to draw on welfare, and likely to need avoidable support. Independent assessments show that timely wheelchair provision provides substantial net fiscal benefits over a lifetime. This is not charity.
It's investment in people, productivity and public finances. So what can we do? I would like to offer that the private sector has a bigger role than it realises. Many employers have disability inclusion strategies, but too often the effort stops at the workplace door. Rarely do companies engage with the upstream systems that determine whether someone can physically get to work. Access to equipment, responsiveness of service providers, or the basic accessibility of buildings and bathrooms. Employers can change that. They can partner with local social care services.
They can use procurement to demand guarantee, repair times, loan equipment, or minimum quality standards. They can appoint a senior sponsor for end to end online accessibility, responsible for everything from recruitment to evacuation plans. They can embed requirements for accessibility and rapid occupational therapy assessments in their HR processes. They can also use their data tracking how many dates slip because equipment isn't in place, how many job offers fall away, how many days of work are lost to broken or missing equipment? They can work with unions to help work into disabled staff networks and design no detriment policies.
When external equipment failures prevent people from working, government and commissioners must stop treating equipment services as a marginal welfare line, they are essential. Economic infrastructure outcomes should be judged not just clinically, but in terms of employment, education and participation. Services should publish transparent data on waiting times for the assessments, delivery and repair broken down by age, region and employment status. At a minimum, we must know how many working age disabled people are being delayed or denied work because of delays to equipment.
Access to work should be fully integrated with NHS wheelchair and community equipment pathways. Leaders such as Sara Weller, a non-exec at BT, have long been arguing that disability inclusion must mean more than good intentions. It means designing systems that work from end to end. This is the core point. Mobility, accessibility and equipment are not optional extras for many disabled people. They are the foundation that makes employment possible. I learned this the hard way when I was in a wheelchair for a year, but before my own experience, I learned from another lane-fox who terrorised the halls of this building in her electric wheelchair.
My great aunt Felicity Lane-fox. If we're serious about closing the disability employment gap, boosting productivity and unlocking talent, we must put disability equipment services in our growth strategy,
**** Possible New Speaker ****
not marooned on the edge of the health system. Thank you. My Lords. I'm delighted to be the first conservative to.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
the first conservative to. Congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Garrard, on an excellent maiden speech. As one would expect from such a distinguished doctor, and how wise of her to speak today and how wise of her to speak today and not step into the maelstrom of assisted dying tomorrow. Although, of course, there will be plenty more days and plenty of opportunity more days and plenty of opportunity for her to give a view. As a former distinguished president of the Royal College of General Practitioners, of course, we shall also expect her to single handedly save the NHS and solve the serious
From 2008 to 22, she founded and led the NHS Practitioner Health Service, now the largest confidential mental health and addiction service for health professionals in the world, supporting 50,000 clinicians across England and Scotland. From 2019 to 25, she co-chaired the NHS Assembly, helping to bridge policy, policy and patient experience at a national level. Ever the entrepreneur, it seems she also co-developed Econsult, now used by around a third of GP practices, and she continues to lead the primary care gambling service and serves as patron of Doctors in Distress.
And as if this was not all enough, she has been Chair and president of the Royal College of General Practitioners, only the second woman to hold both roles. But before I end, I must mention perhaps her most remarkable career high her stint as a stand up comedian. In the show, she co-wrote 50 Minutes to Save the NHS, which should perhaps have been a clue as to how effective she would be in a time limited debate on an important subject. Baroness Gerada brings not only expertise but wit to this House, and I have no doubt she'll make an important and exceptional contribution.
We often file wheelchair and community equipment services under health or social care. In reality, they are ought to be part of our national employment infrastructure. When services fail, people don't just lose mobility, they lose their ability to contribute. The numbers tell this story starkly. Only around 53% of working age disabled people are in employment, compared with 82% of non-disabled people. And it's even wider for young disabled people. As a recent House of Lords report on the transition to work made clear, 1.2 million of people rely on a wheelchair and many more on other pieces of equipment.
So when these systems fail, we're not just talking about inconvenience, we're talking about large parts of the labour market losing the tools that make work possible for many disabled people, daily life and work depend on reliable access to the right equipment, wheelchair seating, mobility aids, home adaptations, assistive tech when systems slip. When assessments take months, repairs take weeks. The consequences are immediate. Parliamentary inquiries have described these failures as systemic. As we've heard charities report people stuck at home with unsafe chairs or unable to start new jobs because their equipment simply hasn't arrived.
Services designed to enable independence become gatekeepers to your ability to work. This is an economic cost. We rarely acknowledge if someone is unable to work purely because essential equipment is delayed or incorrect, the ripple effect hits every public budget. They're less likely to earn, less likely to pay tax to progress in their career, more likely to draw on welfare, and likely to need avoidable support. Independent assessments show that timely wheelchair provision provides substantial net fiscal benefits over a lifetime. This is not charity.
It's investment in people, productivity and public finances. So what can we do? I would like to offer that the private sector has a bigger role than it realises. Many employers have disability inclusion strategies, but too often the effort stops at the workplace door. Rarely do companies engage with the upstream systems that determine whether someone can physically get to work. Access to equipment, responsiveness of service providers, or the basic accessibility of buildings and bathrooms. Employers can change that. They can partner with local social care services.
They can use procurement to demand guarantee, repair times, loan equipment, or minimum quality standards. They can appoint a senior sponsor for end to end online accessibility, responsible for everything from recruitment to evacuation plans. They can embed requirements for accessibility and rapid occupational therapy assessments in their HR processes. They can also use their data tracking how many dates slip because equipment isn't in place, how many job offers fall away, how many days of work are lost to broken or missing equipment? They can work with unions to help work into disabled staff networks and design no detriment policies.
When external equipment failures prevent people from working, government and commissioners must stop treating equipment services as a marginal welfare line, they are essential. Economic infrastructure outcomes should be judged not just clinically, but in terms of employment, education and participation. Services should publish transparent data on waiting times for the assessments, delivery and repair broken down by age, region and employment status. At a minimum, we must know how many working age disabled people are being delayed or denied work because of delays to equipment.
Access to work should be fully integrated with NHS wheelchair and community equipment pathways. Leaders such as Sara Weller, a non-exec at BT, have long been arguing that disability inclusion must mean more than good intentions. It means designing systems that work from end to end. This is the core point. Mobility, accessibility and equipment are not optional extras for many disabled people. They are the foundation that makes employment possible. I learned this the hard way when I was in a wheelchair for a year, but before my own experience, I learned from another lane-fox who terrorised the halls of this building in her electric wheelchair.
My great aunt Felicity Lane-fox. If we're serious about closing the disability employment gap, boosting productivity and unlocking talent, we must put disability equipment services in our growth strategy,
**** Possible New Speaker ****
not marooned on the edge of the health system. Thank you. My Lords. I'm delighted to be the first conservative to.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
the first conservative to. Congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Garrard, on an excellent maiden speech. As one would expect from such a distinguished doctor, and how wise of her to speak today and how wise of her to speak today and not step into the maelstrom of assisted dying tomorrow. Although, of course, there will be plenty more days and plenty of opportunity more days and plenty of opportunity for her to give a view. As a former distinguished president of the Royal College of General Practitioners, of course, we shall also expect her to single handedly save the NHS and solve the serious
13:25
Lord Blencathra (Conservative)
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Lord Blencathra (Conservative)
problems of general practice moving patients into hospital care. And so we all look forward to hearing from her again. I also congratulate the noble Lord Lord Hunt of Kings Heath for securing this debate and his excellent contribution. NHS wheelchair provision has been widely criticised for inconsistency, widely criticised for inconsistency, long delays and poor suitability of equipment costs are driven up by inefficiencies and the false inefficiencies and the false economy of supplying inadequate wheelchairs. A cost effective strategy would focus on on standardising services, improving assessments and investing in fit for purpose equipment to reduce downstream health and social costs.
Now, one of the key criticisms of NHS wheelchair provision. First a postcode lottery. Services vary significantly across regions, leading to inequitable, inequitable access. Second, long waiting times, delays in assessment and delivery leave users without mobility support for months. Third, poor suitability of equipment. Many wheelchairs provide a heavy, cumbersome or not tailored to users daily lives, forcing some to buy their own. And fourth, limited user involvement assessments often fail to consider lifestyle needs, reducing independence and social participation, and fifth or sixth inconsistent standards.
NHS England acknowledges variation in service quality and outcomes. My Lords, putting it simply, NHS wheelchairs are dirt cheap and for that you get big, heavy, ugly things which appal young people who may need to use them. The wheels may not detach. Car transport may be difficult, if not impossible. Now noble Lords have seen my sophisticated wheelchair parked around the corner, similar to the one of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. And. But these wheelchairs are of a ten year old design, and their solid steel frame and very heavy design, no doubt for 40 to 50 stone Americans.
Now a replacement these days will be lightweight aluminium and lightweight aluminium wheelchairs have been taking over the scene for the last few years. That's what people want and need. But of course there is a higher cost now that cost, my Lords, I suggest, can be contained. If there was a national NHS strategy. First standardised provision nationally. Implement the NHS Wheelchair Quality Framework across all ICBs to reduce variation and appoint a senior NHS England lead to oversee wheelchair services. Second, improve assessments and user involvement.
Ensure assessments include. Consider lifestyle, employment and education needs, not just the medical factors and co-design services with wheelchair users to avoid unsuitable provision. Third, My Lords invest in fit for purpose equipment, provide wheelchairs that meet individual needs, reducing downstream costs from poor health outcomes as they get worse in the future with bad wheelchairs, and expand the personal health badges to allow choice and flexibility. Fourth, streamline procurement and maintenance. Centralised purchasing to leverage economies of scale. Introduce rapid response maintenance contracts to minimise downtime, and finally measure outcomes by Lloyd's.
Not just costs. Track independence, employment and health outcomes as key performance indicators. The value added and use data to demonstrate long term savings from better provision. My Lords, while upfront costs of better equipment and services may rise, the long term strategy in savings and health, social care and productivity make this a cost effective strategy. Standardisation, user centred assessments and investment in suitable wheelchairs are the most impactful reforms and
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I beg to support it. Yes. My Lords, I congratulate Lord Hunt of Kings Heath on securing Hunt of Kings Heath on securing this important debate. I also want to congratulate Lady Gerada on her excellent maiden speech. And from excellent maiden speech. And from these benches, we look forward to her many future contributions. The. her many future contributions. The. I'm also a member of the All Party Parliamentary Group for Access to Disability Equipment, and the Appg Disability Equipment, and the Appg published a forensically detailed report in October into the systematic barriers that prevent
Now, one of the key criticisms of NHS wheelchair provision. First a postcode lottery. Services vary significantly across regions, leading to inequitable, inequitable access. Second, long waiting times, delays in assessment and delivery leave users without mobility support for months. Third, poor suitability of equipment. Many wheelchairs provide a heavy, cumbersome or not tailored to users daily lives, forcing some to buy their own. And fourth, limited user involvement assessments often fail to consider lifestyle needs, reducing independence and social participation, and fifth or sixth inconsistent standards.
NHS England acknowledges variation in service quality and outcomes. My Lords, putting it simply, NHS wheelchairs are dirt cheap and for that you get big, heavy, ugly things which appal young people who may need to use them. The wheels may not detach. Car transport may be difficult, if not impossible. Now noble Lords have seen my sophisticated wheelchair parked around the corner, similar to the one of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. And. But these wheelchairs are of a ten year old design, and their solid steel frame and very heavy design, no doubt for 40 to 50 stone Americans.
Now a replacement these days will be lightweight aluminium and lightweight aluminium wheelchairs have been taking over the scene for the last few years. That's what people want and need. But of course there is a higher cost now that cost, my Lords, I suggest, can be contained. If there was a national NHS strategy. First standardised provision nationally. Implement the NHS Wheelchair Quality Framework across all ICBs to reduce variation and appoint a senior NHS England lead to oversee wheelchair services. Second, improve assessments and user involvement.
Ensure assessments include. Consider lifestyle, employment and education needs, not just the medical factors and co-design services with wheelchair users to avoid unsuitable provision. Third, My Lords invest in fit for purpose equipment, provide wheelchairs that meet individual needs, reducing downstream costs from poor health outcomes as they get worse in the future with bad wheelchairs, and expand the personal health badges to allow choice and flexibility. Fourth, streamline procurement and maintenance. Centralised purchasing to leverage economies of scale. Introduce rapid response maintenance contracts to minimise downtime, and finally measure outcomes by Lloyd's.
Not just costs. Track independence, employment and health outcomes as key performance indicators. The value added and use data to demonstrate long term savings from better provision. My Lords, while upfront costs of better equipment and services may rise, the long term strategy in savings and health, social care and productivity make this a cost effective strategy. Standardisation, user centred assessments and investment in suitable wheelchairs are the most impactful reforms and
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I beg to support it. Yes. My Lords, I congratulate Lord Hunt of Kings Heath on securing Hunt of Kings Heath on securing this important debate. I also want to congratulate Lady Gerada on her excellent maiden speech. And from excellent maiden speech. And from these benches, we look forward to her many future contributions. The. her many future contributions. The. I'm also a member of the All Party Parliamentary Group for Access to Disability Equipment, and the Appg Disability Equipment, and the Appg published a forensically detailed report in October into the systematic barriers that prevent
13:29
Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)
millions of disabled children and adults from across the UK from accessing the medical and community equipment, including wheelchairs, that they need to live safely and that they need to live safely and independently, and that are holding back the sector from supplying the equipment that is needed. Lord equipment that is needed. Lord Shinkwin helpfully set out a wider social picture because community equipment is the backbone of social equipment is the backbone of social care and key to removing barriers for disabled people.
14 years ago, I was referred to my local wheelchair services. They told me that as I could walk slowly with a stick from my sitting room to my kitchen, I didn't qualify for an electric chair, but the very reason my physio had recommended me was that I was doing around 10 to 12,000 steps a day, travelling to, from and around your Lordships' House, and the damage that that was doing to my already damaged joints was significant. I had to buy my own chair.
Even this week I have heard people saying they're facing the same inconsistent decisions, not based on actual needs, but on rules to keep costs down because that is what it is all about. That's why the Wheelchair Alliance were right to say that services should be patient focussed first. The Appg report found that 63% of carers and 55% of users said services are getting worse. Over half of equipment users reported they don't have access to the medical equipment they need for their long term needs.
And as Lord Blencathra said, there is widespread reports of users being let down by the current system. So it was also good to hear from Lord Harris that the system has worked for him and his wife, and my own family's experience with requiring emergency equipment for end of life care was absolutely wonderful. But I note that the Kent end of life service bypassed the usual wheelchair and equipment service in order to get things done. There are lessons to be learned from that.
Lord Reynolds contribution was so important. We need to hear from the equipment sector and understand their problems too. One of the key issues in the medical equipment supply sector is that contracting by local authorities of services from the sector is not strategic. So as the Appg report shows, most local authorities became very dependent on one supplier who was cheaper than all the others when they went bust. Earlier this year, the sector and the commissioners in local authorities and above all, wheelchair and equipment users found that they were left high and dry.
I am pleased to report that the sector has come together with local authorities to try and remedy this, but this is a strategic fault. What's needed by the government is a national strategy that is different to a voluntary framework, as Lord hunt outlined, that serves the needs of disabled people and their families whilst offering value for money to commissioners and the public purse. What we have at the moment is the exact opposite. Sir, can I ask the Minister if she would agree to meet with the all party group for access and disability equipment and discuss
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these issues? My Lords, can I thank the noble Lord, Lord King Lord Hunt of Kings Lord, Lord King Lord Hunt of Kings Heath for securing this valuable debate today and thank all noble Lords who share their valuable experiences. But I also welcome experiences. But I also welcome Lady Gerard. I hope I pronounced that correctly who in her maiden speech shared her valuable speech shared her valuable background, which we know will contribute hugely to this House. At its heart, this is a discussion about people's freedom, about about people's freedom, about people's dignity and independence.
Wheelchairs are, for many, the difference between participating in daily life or being excluded. Enabling people to leave their homes, to see loved ones, and to access work and education. But the reason for today's debate is that the current system faces serious problems. Indeed, NHS England's 2025 Wheelchair Quality Framework recognises this, while the Appg for Access to Disability Equipment describes the system as being in
14 years ago, I was referred to my local wheelchair services. They told me that as I could walk slowly with a stick from my sitting room to my kitchen, I didn't qualify for an electric chair, but the very reason my physio had recommended me was that I was doing around 10 to 12,000 steps a day, travelling to, from and around your Lordships' House, and the damage that that was doing to my already damaged joints was significant. I had to buy my own chair.
Even this week I have heard people saying they're facing the same inconsistent decisions, not based on actual needs, but on rules to keep costs down because that is what it is all about. That's why the Wheelchair Alliance were right to say that services should be patient focussed first. The Appg report found that 63% of carers and 55% of users said services are getting worse. Over half of equipment users reported they don't have access to the medical equipment they need for their long term needs.
And as Lord Blencathra said, there is widespread reports of users being let down by the current system. So it was also good to hear from Lord Harris that the system has worked for him and his wife, and my own family's experience with requiring emergency equipment for end of life care was absolutely wonderful. But I note that the Kent end of life service bypassed the usual wheelchair and equipment service in order to get things done. There are lessons to be learned from that.
Lord Reynolds contribution was so important. We need to hear from the equipment sector and understand their problems too. One of the key issues in the medical equipment supply sector is that contracting by local authorities of services from the sector is not strategic. So as the Appg report shows, most local authorities became very dependent on one supplier who was cheaper than all the others when they went bust. Earlier this year, the sector and the commissioners in local authorities and above all, wheelchair and equipment users found that they were left high and dry.
I am pleased to report that the sector has come together with local authorities to try and remedy this, but this is a strategic fault. What's needed by the government is a national strategy that is different to a voluntary framework, as Lord hunt outlined, that serves the needs of disabled people and their families whilst offering value for money to commissioners and the public purse. What we have at the moment is the exact opposite. Sir, can I ask the Minister if she would agree to meet with the all party group for access and disability equipment and discuss
**** Possible New Speaker ****
these issues? My Lords, can I thank the noble Lord, Lord King Lord Hunt of Kings Lord, Lord King Lord Hunt of Kings Heath for securing this valuable debate today and thank all noble Lords who share their valuable experiences. But I also welcome experiences. But I also welcome Lady Gerard. I hope I pronounced that correctly who in her maiden speech shared her valuable speech shared her valuable background, which we know will contribute hugely to this House. At its heart, this is a discussion about people's freedom, about about people's freedom, about people's dignity and independence.
Wheelchairs are, for many, the difference between participating in daily life or being excluded. Enabling people to leave their homes, to see loved ones, and to access work and education. But the reason for today's debate is that the current system faces serious problems. Indeed, NHS England's 2025 Wheelchair Quality Framework recognises this, while the Appg for Access to Disability Equipment describes the system as being in
13:33
Lord Kamall (Conservative)
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Lord Kamall (Conservative)
crisis. So, my Lords, we welcome acknowledge NHS England's initial steps to improve wheelchair steps to improve wheelchair services, such as the National Wheelchair Data Set and personal wheelchair budgets. These are welcome and should be acknowledged. But data from the British Healthcare Trades Association shows that only around 80% of users receive a wheelchair or much needed modification within 18 weeks, below the 92% national target. And people with complex needs can wait significantly longer, and a delay in receiving a wheelchair is not simply an inconvenience or a statistic, it is a barrier to living a fuller life.
And also, we find that where a person lives determines how their wheelchair services are assessed, whether they qualify their level of support, how clearly the process is explained, what kind of equipment they ultimately receive, and the NHS. England's own national data set shows significant regional variation between integrated care boards in meeting the 18 week standard. There is also a wide variation in eligibility criteria. In North Bristol, the threshold for regular use is at least four times weekly on a regular basis.
In Oxford, regular use is defined as at least three days per week. In Wirral and west Cheshire, regular use is worded as more often than not for powered wheelchair assessments. We find in West Suffolk a person must demonstrate indoor need, appropriate home accessibility, get GP clearance and pass a driving assessment while in north west London that uses a tiered categorisation system of need, with detailed thresholds and criteria for the effects that denying access to certain items could foreseeably have. So when noble Lords discussed this topic last month, the noble Lady the Minister said, and I quote, integrated care boards are responsible for commissioning of local wheelchair services based on the needs of the local population.
My Lords, I appreciate the need for such flexibility and reflecting local populations. But could the Minister tell the House if the government believes that there should be more co-ordination or better coordination on eligibility, but also communicating the criteria and what plans it has for achieving this? My Lords, the noble Lord hunt shared an article from Paul Sagar about his own experience when he was on his hospital bed, distressed, worried about his future being phoned by the wheelchair service. Obviously being unable to speak right now and then assuming that he would be called back.
Instead, a letter was sent to his home address and upstairs flat, which he would never access again. And I thought that shows just valuable sort of situation some users find themselves in. So can I ask a noble Lady Minister, what is the recourse of patients where local ICPs offer such poor and unempathetic services? What's the accountability mechanism and what is the department's thinking on making them accountable to allow such poor services while respecting local differences? And does the government have any plans for regular reviews of wheelchair service providers to make sure that they all meet in standards? My Lords, I appreciate that noble Lords have asked a lot of questions, but I hope the noble Lady, the Minister who we know cares deeply about patients, will appreciate that we see this not as a party political issue, but one on which all benches can agree touches directly on people's independence, touches directly on people's dignity, and touches directly on
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people's everyday lives. My Lords, I'm most grateful to
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My Lords, I'm most grateful to my noble friend Lord hunt, not just for securing this important debate for securing this important debate on what is a vital issue. As the noble Lord Lord Kamall said, but noble Lord Lord Kamall said, but also for his campaigning, along with other noble Lords and groups and individuals outside of your and individuals outside of your Lordships House over many years. I'm also grateful to noble Lords, not just for their contributions, but also for sharing their experiences, some of which are painful to relate and painful to hear.
To the maiden speech of the noble Lady Baroness Gerada, let me welcome her experience and her approach, and let me welcome her to your Lordships House. The noble Lady spoke of choosing to speak in this debate because of its feature of, amongst other things, dignity and fairness, and I was very
And also, we find that where a person lives determines how their wheelchair services are assessed, whether they qualify their level of support, how clearly the process is explained, what kind of equipment they ultimately receive, and the NHS. England's own national data set shows significant regional variation between integrated care boards in meeting the 18 week standard. There is also a wide variation in eligibility criteria. In North Bristol, the threshold for regular use is at least four times weekly on a regular basis.
In Oxford, regular use is defined as at least three days per week. In Wirral and west Cheshire, regular use is worded as more often than not for powered wheelchair assessments. We find in West Suffolk a person must demonstrate indoor need, appropriate home accessibility, get GP clearance and pass a driving assessment while in north west London that uses a tiered categorisation system of need, with detailed thresholds and criteria for the effects that denying access to certain items could foreseeably have. So when noble Lords discussed this topic last month, the noble Lady the Minister said, and I quote, integrated care boards are responsible for commissioning of local wheelchair services based on the needs of the local population.
My Lords, I appreciate the need for such flexibility and reflecting local populations. But could the Minister tell the House if the government believes that there should be more co-ordination or better coordination on eligibility, but also communicating the criteria and what plans it has for achieving this? My Lords, the noble Lord hunt shared an article from Paul Sagar about his own experience when he was on his hospital bed, distressed, worried about his future being phoned by the wheelchair service. Obviously being unable to speak right now and then assuming that he would be called back.
Instead, a letter was sent to his home address and upstairs flat, which he would never access again. And I thought that shows just valuable sort of situation some users find themselves in. So can I ask a noble Lady Minister, what is the recourse of patients where local ICPs offer such poor and unempathetic services? What's the accountability mechanism and what is the department's thinking on making them accountable to allow such poor services while respecting local differences? And does the government have any plans for regular reviews of wheelchair service providers to make sure that they all meet in standards? My Lords, I appreciate that noble Lords have asked a lot of questions, but I hope the noble Lady, the Minister who we know cares deeply about patients, will appreciate that we see this not as a party political issue, but one on which all benches can agree touches directly on people's independence, touches directly on people's dignity, and touches directly on
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people's everyday lives. My Lords, I'm most grateful to
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My Lords, I'm most grateful to my noble friend Lord hunt, not just for securing this important debate for securing this important debate on what is a vital issue. As the noble Lord Lord Kamall said, but noble Lord Lord Kamall said, but also for his campaigning, along with other noble Lords and groups and individuals outside of your and individuals outside of your Lordships House over many years. I'm also grateful to noble Lords, not just for their contributions, but also for sharing their experiences, some of which are painful to relate and painful to hear.
To the maiden speech of the noble Lady Baroness Gerada, let me welcome her experience and her approach, and let me welcome her to your Lordships House. The noble Lady spoke of choosing to speak in this debate because of its feature of, amongst other things, dignity and fairness, and I was very
13:38
Baroness Merron (Labour)
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Baroness Merron (Labour)
touched by the noble Ladies description of what and who and GP really is within their community. And I know that we all look forward to hearing more from the noble Lady. to hearing more from the noble Lady. Could I just say the government has promised more GPS, and we're promised more GPS, and we're delighted to have more GPS sitting on our red benches. My Lords. This has been a affecting debate, not least as people describe the impact of services not being in the right place as they should be.
And I'm sure that we would all agree that there is more work to do. But I would like the opportunity to outline what the government has done and is doing, and we are focussed on ensuring that disabled people do have access to services and support that they need to lead a fulfilling life. And my ministerial colleague Zubeir Ahmed MP is the relevant Minister and I look forward to sharing the points and questions raised in this debate with him in respect of provision of wheelchair services.
Integrated care boards are responsible, as we have heard, and the noble Lord Lord commanders quoted are responsible for the provision and commissioning of local wheelchair services based on the needs of their local population. I'm glad that the noble Lord Lord Kamall did recognise the importance of flexibility. However, flexibility cannot be an excuse for not providing, which I believe is a point I've heard. I have heard rightly and repeatedly today. So, my Lords, I do have to say that there aren't no plans to publish a national strategy for wheelchair provision.
I know that will be disappointing to noble Lords, but I can say that NHS England has developed policy, guidance and legislation to support ICBs who are crucial in this, to ensure commissioning effective, efficient and personalised wheelchair services, including the Wheelchair Quality Framework, which was published just in April in collaboration with NHS England National Wheelchair Advisory Group and local authorities, do have a statutory duty to arrange for the provision of community disability equipment to meet the assessed care and support needs for people in their area.
And I would also want to add that our ten year plan for health gives that freedom and autonomy to serve local people to local commissioners. And I do think in this regard, it's important that we are giving systems control and flexibility to a greater degree about how funding is deployed to get this done. But I have heard about delays to wheelchair provision, and I say this not as any excuse at all, but the pandemic still continues to have an impact on wheelchair services, not least because, in fact, some providers have not only reduced their services with the inevitable outcome, but now face a backlog of referrals.
Also, I was interested to explore that some services have also experienced lower referral, lower referral rates during the pandemic. This, of course, has led to a surge in referrals later. It has meant waiting times for both adults and children to fluctuated as services have worked to recover. However, we do need action to address waiting times and I absolutely recognise the impact that delays have. And so to that point, in October, we published the NHS Medium Term Planning Framework, which requires all icbs and community health services to actively manage and reduce waits over 18 weeks and to develop a plan to eliminate all 52 week waits.
The noble Lord Lord Blencathra rightly referred to the need to focus on measuring outcomes, and the Community Health Services Situation Report will be used to monitor ICB performances against waiting time targets in 20 2627, and currently monitors waiting times for children and young people and adults under wheelchair orthotics, prosthetics and equipment, and these targets will guide systems to reduce the longest waits. Additionally, the model service specification for wheelchairs sets out that wheelchair assessments take place have to take place in the most suitable environment, including hospitals.
But the key thing here is based on the need of the individual. My Lords, my noble friend Lord hunt and other noble Lords rightly spoke to delays in discharge being linked to temporary or short term lone well wheelchairs rather than long term provision. Let me say that access to temporary wheelchair provision to support hospital discharge is determined locally by ICBs. It doesn't fall within the remit of NHS Wheelchair Services, which does provide services to people of all ages with long term mobility needs.
I did hear the point made very clearly about the technology and quality of wheelchairs, and certainly that's one of the things I will be raising and discussing with Minister Ahmed in terms of improving the quality of wheelchair services. As I said, reducing waiting time is part of it. It's not the whole story. So the quality framework and the noble Lord Lord Shinkwin asked about this point, is very much designed to assist Icbs and NHS wheelchair service providers to get it right.
I have heard that the experience of noble Lords, both within this chamber and also in lives outside, this is not always the case and I do understand that. But the quality framework sets out quality standards relevant to all suppliers and does align with the CQC assessment framework and and to the point raised not just by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, but also the noble Lady, Baroness Brinton. This is about aiming to tackle the inequalities that we know do exist.
I want to acknowledge that in outcomes, in experience and access. My Lords NHS England statutory guidance sets out how Icbs should be working with people, communities, key partners and with local authorities. And that's why each ICB must have executive leads who work closely with local authorities, who promote integrated working for the benefit of those including those with learning disability and autism, down syndrome, and children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities. NHS England, also as was referred to in the debate, introduced a personal wheelchair budgets in 2019 and gave a clear framework for ICBs to commission personalised wheelchair services, focusing on outcomes and also in integrated care, giving people greater choice over the wheelchair provided.
And I have heard what noble Lords have said today, and also to the noble Lady Baroness Lane-Fox, who spoke quite correctly about the impact of the quality of services on the ability to be in the market for employment. That is about quality of life as well as the economy. And I share her views to the noble Lords, Lord Harris and Lord Rennard about dissatisfaction with services. And again, I heard that spoken of a number of times. NHS bodies and local authorities must arrange for dealing properly with complaints.
And let me say, overall, the approach of the ten year health plan identifies disabled people as a priority group and our Neighbourhood Health service will support disabled people. It's about choice and control over their care, and the ten year plan focuses on that. My Lords, I have heard what noble Lords have said and as I said, I will be taking that back. I hope the steps we have made will make a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
difference, but I do recognise Lords. I'm going.
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I'm going. To just pause for a short moment to allow any movement around the Motion Motion for. Motion for. Debate Motion for. Debate Common Good Foundation and Centre for Policy Studies report. Don't stop thinking about tomorrow. And with all best wishes for his valedictory speech. Lord Hodgson, of Astley Abbotts.
And I'm sure that we would all agree that there is more work to do. But I would like the opportunity to outline what the government has done and is doing, and we are focussed on ensuring that disabled people do have access to services and support that they need to lead a fulfilling life. And my ministerial colleague Zubeir Ahmed MP is the relevant Minister and I look forward to sharing the points and questions raised in this debate with him in respect of provision of wheelchair services.
Integrated care boards are responsible, as we have heard, and the noble Lord Lord commanders quoted are responsible for the provision and commissioning of local wheelchair services based on the needs of their local population. I'm glad that the noble Lord Lord Kamall did recognise the importance of flexibility. However, flexibility cannot be an excuse for not providing, which I believe is a point I've heard. I have heard rightly and repeatedly today. So, my Lords, I do have to say that there aren't no plans to publish a national strategy for wheelchair provision.
I know that will be disappointing to noble Lords, but I can say that NHS England has developed policy, guidance and legislation to support ICBs who are crucial in this, to ensure commissioning effective, efficient and personalised wheelchair services, including the Wheelchair Quality Framework, which was published just in April in collaboration with NHS England National Wheelchair Advisory Group and local authorities, do have a statutory duty to arrange for the provision of community disability equipment to meet the assessed care and support needs for people in their area.
And I would also want to add that our ten year plan for health gives that freedom and autonomy to serve local people to local commissioners. And I do think in this regard, it's important that we are giving systems control and flexibility to a greater degree about how funding is deployed to get this done. But I have heard about delays to wheelchair provision, and I say this not as any excuse at all, but the pandemic still continues to have an impact on wheelchair services, not least because, in fact, some providers have not only reduced their services with the inevitable outcome, but now face a backlog of referrals.
Also, I was interested to explore that some services have also experienced lower referral, lower referral rates during the pandemic. This, of course, has led to a surge in referrals later. It has meant waiting times for both adults and children to fluctuated as services have worked to recover. However, we do need action to address waiting times and I absolutely recognise the impact that delays have. And so to that point, in October, we published the NHS Medium Term Planning Framework, which requires all icbs and community health services to actively manage and reduce waits over 18 weeks and to develop a plan to eliminate all 52 week waits.
The noble Lord Lord Blencathra rightly referred to the need to focus on measuring outcomes, and the Community Health Services Situation Report will be used to monitor ICB performances against waiting time targets in 20 2627, and currently monitors waiting times for children and young people and adults under wheelchair orthotics, prosthetics and equipment, and these targets will guide systems to reduce the longest waits. Additionally, the model service specification for wheelchairs sets out that wheelchair assessments take place have to take place in the most suitable environment, including hospitals.
But the key thing here is based on the need of the individual. My Lords, my noble friend Lord hunt and other noble Lords rightly spoke to delays in discharge being linked to temporary or short term lone well wheelchairs rather than long term provision. Let me say that access to temporary wheelchair provision to support hospital discharge is determined locally by ICBs. It doesn't fall within the remit of NHS Wheelchair Services, which does provide services to people of all ages with long term mobility needs.
I did hear the point made very clearly about the technology and quality of wheelchairs, and certainly that's one of the things I will be raising and discussing with Minister Ahmed in terms of improving the quality of wheelchair services. As I said, reducing waiting time is part of it. It's not the whole story. So the quality framework and the noble Lord Lord Shinkwin asked about this point, is very much designed to assist Icbs and NHS wheelchair service providers to get it right.
I have heard that the experience of noble Lords, both within this chamber and also in lives outside, this is not always the case and I do understand that. But the quality framework sets out quality standards relevant to all suppliers and does align with the CQC assessment framework and and to the point raised not just by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, but also the noble Lady, Baroness Brinton. This is about aiming to tackle the inequalities that we know do exist.
I want to acknowledge that in outcomes, in experience and access. My Lords NHS England statutory guidance sets out how Icbs should be working with people, communities, key partners and with local authorities. And that's why each ICB must have executive leads who work closely with local authorities, who promote integrated working for the benefit of those including those with learning disability and autism, down syndrome, and children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities. NHS England, also as was referred to in the debate, introduced a personal wheelchair budgets in 2019 and gave a clear framework for ICBs to commission personalised wheelchair services, focusing on outcomes and also in integrated care, giving people greater choice over the wheelchair provided.
And I have heard what noble Lords have said today, and also to the noble Lady Baroness Lane-Fox, who spoke quite correctly about the impact of the quality of services on the ability to be in the market for employment. That is about quality of life as well as the economy. And I share her views to the noble Lords, Lord Harris and Lord Rennard about dissatisfaction with services. And again, I heard that spoken of a number of times. NHS bodies and local authorities must arrange for dealing properly with complaints.
And let me say, overall, the approach of the ten year health plan identifies disabled people as a priority group and our Neighbourhood Health service will support disabled people. It's about choice and control over their care, and the ten year plan focuses on that. My Lords, I have heard what noble Lords have said and as I said, I will be taking that back. I hope the steps we have made will make a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
difference, but I do recognise Lords. I'm going.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm going. To just pause for a short moment to allow any movement around the Motion Motion for. Motion for. Debate Motion for. Debate Common Good Foundation and Centre for Policy Studies report. Don't stop thinking about tomorrow. And with all best wishes for his valedictory speech. Lord Hodgson, of Astley Abbotts.
13:48
Debate: Common Good Foundation and Centre for Policy Studies report: "Don’t stop thinking about tomorrow" and of the implications of projected population growth for the UK’s demographic future
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Debate: Common Good Foundation and Centre for Policy Studies report: "Don’t stop thinking about tomorrow" and of the implications of projected population growth for the UK’s demographic future
Thank you for those good wishes. I hope you'll still feel the same I hope you'll still feel the same at the end of my speech. My Lords, the issue of population change and the issue of population change and its consequences has long been an interest of mine, because I believe that successive governments have failed to give the topic sufficient strategic analysis and attention in the country where we appear to want
13:48
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Conservative)
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Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Conservative)
a plan for almost everything. Conspicuously, we fail to plan for one of the essential building one of the essential building blocks in our society the number of people living in this country. Over the past ten years, I've published three reports trying to analyse this issue in as transparent and evidence based way as I could evidence based way as I could manage, and this report before your Lordships' House today is the third of them and provides an appropriate of them and provides an appropriate bookend to my time in your Lordships' House.
So I want to put on record my sincere thanks to the captain Bodyguard, noble Lord Kennedy, my own Chief Whip Baroness Williams of Trafford for enabling the scheduling of this debate. I'm not so far had the pleasure of debating the noble Baroness Anderson. I hope she'll forgive me if I say that this is a valedictory debate, and when she comes to reply, I hope she will not confine herself to a speaking at which might, just might just say we inherited a broken system from the party opposite.
Give us three years and we will have fixed it. I hope instead that she will spend some time to give some genuine consideration to the issues and concerns that I and others will be raising, because, my Lords, we all know, we all know that this is an issue which is not susceptible to piecemeal, short term solutions often produced to meet a particular crisis. By contrast, it requires careful strategic analysis conducted and transparent evidence based way, which should lead to discussions in Parliament.
This, in turn, will reassure the many concerned members of our population. In short, my Lords, we need to create space. Space for what best can be described as the wisdom of the crowd to make itself felt, and so marginalise the unrealistic and often unpleasant views at either end of the spectrum. Now the impacts of demographic change are very long. In the words of demography, the world of demography. Yesterday is the year 2000, so we are today living with the consequences of the decisions made by the Blair government in the early 2000, and tomorrow will be 2045, when our successors will have to assess the results of the what was called the Boris Wave.
And they have then become fully apparent. And that's why my report is called Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow. But since this is a topic where every word counts. Let me define two of them. First, the subtle population means people who have a legal right to be in the UK and expect to spend all or substantially all of the rest of their of their lives here. It is not, as some will immediately another word for white. It is not another word for white.
But since close to 20% of the UK's population is now made up of minority communities, many of whom are not white, but whatever their colour, this group is. This is a group which polling shows has a high level of concern about their interests, and the interests of their children are being overlooked and too often being sacrificed to short term political expediency. And secondly, my Lords, the word immigrant. This has become a loaded term, as in, I'm an immigrant and I'm proud as opposed to those immigrants down the road not quite so proud.
So I prefer to use the phrase new arrivals. Now, of course, I understand, and I appreciate the moral imperative that drives those new arrivals, many of whom have been for a long time, and who have benefited from a life in the UK, to be concerned about not trying to close the door on those seeking to follow them. But while recognising that moral imperative, it is unarguable. My Lords, the numbers and scale do matter. So, however sensitive and however painful it is, the key point of numbers has to be recognised and taken into account in our discussions.
And that, my Lords, takes us to the heart of of the strategic of the demographic challenge we face as a result of a series of events which which none of the major political parties can escape responsibility, some being deliberate policy decisions and some being events forced upon us by outside events, such as the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Over the last 30 years, since 1995, the population of this country has risen from 58 million to 69.5 million, an increase of 20%, about 11.5 million people.
What do 11.5 million people look like? Well, the population of Greater Manchester. My Lords, is 2.8 million. So we've added rather over four for Manchester's in that time. And drilling into the issue of housing, since we live 2.4 people per dwelling, we have to have built 4.8 million homes to house these new arrivals. And we and we have to do that before we tackle any of the shortages of housing amongst our settled population. And if you want a snapshot, a snapshot of how the country is changing.
31% of all children born in this country last year were born to mothers who were not born here. 25 years ago, that figure was 10 or 11%. Now, my Lords, where do we go from here? And what does the future look like? Well, the ONS suggests that between now and 2025, we'll have another 10% increase in our population, or 6.6 million people, and the growth is expected to slow over the period of 2045. But by 2045, we'll have between in the middle 70s, 76, 77 million people, and we will have overtaken Germany as the most populous country in Europe.
Where will these people come from? Well, of course there is the natural increase the excess of births over deaths. But leaving that aside, because of the level of press publicity, the man in the street will likely point to refugees and asylum seekers. And in this, my Lords, he would be wrong, because historically the main components have come from two sources. We've always controlled. First, UK higher education. It has built a business model based on recruiting an increasing number of foreign students, of whom 30 to 40% have morphed into our workforce at the end of their studies.
And second, British industry, which uses overseas recruitment as the Migration Advisory Committee, describes it as the default option and has ruthlessly exploited the shortage occupation list, which enables you to recruit overseas at lower wages. As I speak, my Lords, there are 61 categories in the shortage occupation list. Many will be familiar, but not all. How many members of your Lordships' House would realise we have a shortage of dancers and choreographers? So, my Lords, it is worth noting also that our democratic challenge and challenge has made more acute by the fact of our being a relatively small island.
For example, France has 120 people per square kilometre, UK has 279 more than double and England 438, nearly four times as densely populated as France. So for my this my third report, I concluded that to increase credibility, I should not write alone. So I was lucky to get the Common Good Foundation and the Centre for Policy Studies to respectively centre left and centre right think tanks to support me. And I asked a number of experts in the world of demography to discuss the demographic challenge as seen through the eyes.
It is, of course, impossible to summarise nine detailed chapters in this debate, but the overall conclusion of them all was that the country we've not been taking a sufficiently coherent, strategic approach to this particular problem. Further, since this demographic challenges one faced by all countries I made made contact with three countries overseas the Netherlands, Japan which of course facing the opposite problem of a rapidly declining population, and Denmark, which has now become the poster boy for immigration policy. Many interesting ideas emerged, but Denmark, perhaps slightly sadly, enforces very strict conditions on new arrivals and moves them on if they're not complied with.
Rather depressingly, when I asked the Danish people how, how, where do they go to? Oh, they said they did it all go to the UK because, oh, the word on the street is, once you get to the UK, no one will check anything. You are free to do what you like. So, my Lords, I believed that there was an interest to for the in the public. So I asked YouGov to do some polling and the results were 70% of our population.
Of those polled thought the government has no plan to manage population growth and 56% support the idea of creating some official body. An important message for the three parties in your Lordships' House is that only 10% thought the Labour Party had the best answers, only 8% thought the Conservative Party had the best answers, and only and only 5% thought the Liberal Democrats. By contrast, 22% supported reform. So what could be done? We have to have the courage to recognise that the irrevocable nature of demographic change means that departmentally based solutions will never, never, never provide a coherent response.
We have to cut through what I call the firewalls, which suggest that the issues raised by demographic change are not appropriate subject for discussion, and we have to call out cases where any proper discussion is closed down as a result of what Dame Sara Khan called in her government Commission review on social cohesion freedom restricting harassment. Thus, as an example, while it is perfectly acceptable to discuss policies to help achieve net zero, it is not acceptable. Not acceptable to suggest that adding 6 million people to this country might impede that achieving that objective.
So I believe, my Lords, there is a strong argument for creating a new strategic body to be called the office for Demographic Change, or perhaps the office for Population Sustainability, which would subsume within it the existing Migration Advisory Committee. It will be tasked with learning from the past to collect evidence about and analyse consequences of past policies with looking to the future, impacts of likely population changes, economic, environmental, ecological, societal and finally to undertake research into demographic developments and to learn from best practice around the world.
It would, however, not be a policy making body. This new authority will be stand alone, but reporting to the Cabinet Office, Cabinet Office and of course it would also report at least annually to Parliament. It would help create conditions by Lords for a broader, better and more balanced discussion about democracy. For example, is there a maximum level annual population increase we can absorb without prejudicing the position of our population? What can be done to improve the data sources which are clearly inadequate? Is there an argument for seeking to increase the birth rate amongst existing population and so on? So let me conclude, my Lords, the governments may choose to continue to muddle along, but recent events have shown rising public temperature and these pressures seem set to increase.
It is not just individual events such as Crowborough or Epping, it is about public mood. And so the issue seems set to be become a major driver of political change. Writing in The Times on the 15th of September, Trevor Phillips article was headlined and I quote dismissed the United Kingdom March at your peril, unquote. And he went on to say, again, I quote, calling this movement the product of extremist rabble rousers will no longer do. Mainstream politicians must wake up, unquote.
Successive governments, my Lords, have tried ignoring the problem, insinuating that those who are concerned about it is racist, suggesting nothing can be done about it, and that if only everyone would stop talking about it, it would go away. Or finally making aspirational statements with no measurable follow through. The mainstream parties here in your Lordships' House now need to set up a comprehensive, measurable response to public concerns. My report suggests one such approach, but if we fail to respond, events will likely become increasingly ugly.
As wild as spirits make the running, I can think of no more pressing threat to expressing internal threat to the long term prosperity and harmony of our, of our society, of this country than our future population levels. So I'm proud and I'm pleased to be able to hold my valedictory debate on this topic. And I beg to move.
So I want to put on record my sincere thanks to the captain Bodyguard, noble Lord Kennedy, my own Chief Whip Baroness Williams of Trafford for enabling the scheduling of this debate. I'm not so far had the pleasure of debating the noble Baroness Anderson. I hope she'll forgive me if I say that this is a valedictory debate, and when she comes to reply, I hope she will not confine herself to a speaking at which might, just might just say we inherited a broken system from the party opposite.
Give us three years and we will have fixed it. I hope instead that she will spend some time to give some genuine consideration to the issues and concerns that I and others will be raising, because, my Lords, we all know, we all know that this is an issue which is not susceptible to piecemeal, short term solutions often produced to meet a particular crisis. By contrast, it requires careful strategic analysis conducted and transparent evidence based way, which should lead to discussions in Parliament.
This, in turn, will reassure the many concerned members of our population. In short, my Lords, we need to create space. Space for what best can be described as the wisdom of the crowd to make itself felt, and so marginalise the unrealistic and often unpleasant views at either end of the spectrum. Now the impacts of demographic change are very long. In the words of demography, the world of demography. Yesterday is the year 2000, so we are today living with the consequences of the decisions made by the Blair government in the early 2000, and tomorrow will be 2045, when our successors will have to assess the results of the what was called the Boris Wave.
And they have then become fully apparent. And that's why my report is called Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow. But since this is a topic where every word counts. Let me define two of them. First, the subtle population means people who have a legal right to be in the UK and expect to spend all or substantially all of the rest of their of their lives here. It is not, as some will immediately another word for white. It is not another word for white.
But since close to 20% of the UK's population is now made up of minority communities, many of whom are not white, but whatever their colour, this group is. This is a group which polling shows has a high level of concern about their interests, and the interests of their children are being overlooked and too often being sacrificed to short term political expediency. And secondly, my Lords, the word immigrant. This has become a loaded term, as in, I'm an immigrant and I'm proud as opposed to those immigrants down the road not quite so proud.
So I prefer to use the phrase new arrivals. Now, of course, I understand, and I appreciate the moral imperative that drives those new arrivals, many of whom have been for a long time, and who have benefited from a life in the UK, to be concerned about not trying to close the door on those seeking to follow them. But while recognising that moral imperative, it is unarguable. My Lords, the numbers and scale do matter. So, however sensitive and however painful it is, the key point of numbers has to be recognised and taken into account in our discussions.
And that, my Lords, takes us to the heart of of the strategic of the demographic challenge we face as a result of a series of events which which none of the major political parties can escape responsibility, some being deliberate policy decisions and some being events forced upon us by outside events, such as the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Over the last 30 years, since 1995, the population of this country has risen from 58 million to 69.5 million, an increase of 20%, about 11.5 million people.
What do 11.5 million people look like? Well, the population of Greater Manchester. My Lords, is 2.8 million. So we've added rather over four for Manchester's in that time. And drilling into the issue of housing, since we live 2.4 people per dwelling, we have to have built 4.8 million homes to house these new arrivals. And we and we have to do that before we tackle any of the shortages of housing amongst our settled population. And if you want a snapshot, a snapshot of how the country is changing.
31% of all children born in this country last year were born to mothers who were not born here. 25 years ago, that figure was 10 or 11%. Now, my Lords, where do we go from here? And what does the future look like? Well, the ONS suggests that between now and 2025, we'll have another 10% increase in our population, or 6.6 million people, and the growth is expected to slow over the period of 2045. But by 2045, we'll have between in the middle 70s, 76, 77 million people, and we will have overtaken Germany as the most populous country in Europe.
Where will these people come from? Well, of course there is the natural increase the excess of births over deaths. But leaving that aside, because of the level of press publicity, the man in the street will likely point to refugees and asylum seekers. And in this, my Lords, he would be wrong, because historically the main components have come from two sources. We've always controlled. First, UK higher education. It has built a business model based on recruiting an increasing number of foreign students, of whom 30 to 40% have morphed into our workforce at the end of their studies.
And second, British industry, which uses overseas recruitment as the Migration Advisory Committee, describes it as the default option and has ruthlessly exploited the shortage occupation list, which enables you to recruit overseas at lower wages. As I speak, my Lords, there are 61 categories in the shortage occupation list. Many will be familiar, but not all. How many members of your Lordships' House would realise we have a shortage of dancers and choreographers? So, my Lords, it is worth noting also that our democratic challenge and challenge has made more acute by the fact of our being a relatively small island.
For example, France has 120 people per square kilometre, UK has 279 more than double and England 438, nearly four times as densely populated as France. So for my this my third report, I concluded that to increase credibility, I should not write alone. So I was lucky to get the Common Good Foundation and the Centre for Policy Studies to respectively centre left and centre right think tanks to support me. And I asked a number of experts in the world of demography to discuss the demographic challenge as seen through the eyes.
It is, of course, impossible to summarise nine detailed chapters in this debate, but the overall conclusion of them all was that the country we've not been taking a sufficiently coherent, strategic approach to this particular problem. Further, since this demographic challenges one faced by all countries I made made contact with three countries overseas the Netherlands, Japan which of course facing the opposite problem of a rapidly declining population, and Denmark, which has now become the poster boy for immigration policy. Many interesting ideas emerged, but Denmark, perhaps slightly sadly, enforces very strict conditions on new arrivals and moves them on if they're not complied with.
Rather depressingly, when I asked the Danish people how, how, where do they go to? Oh, they said they did it all go to the UK because, oh, the word on the street is, once you get to the UK, no one will check anything. You are free to do what you like. So, my Lords, I believed that there was an interest to for the in the public. So I asked YouGov to do some polling and the results were 70% of our population.
Of those polled thought the government has no plan to manage population growth and 56% support the idea of creating some official body. An important message for the three parties in your Lordships' House is that only 10% thought the Labour Party had the best answers, only 8% thought the Conservative Party had the best answers, and only and only 5% thought the Liberal Democrats. By contrast, 22% supported reform. So what could be done? We have to have the courage to recognise that the irrevocable nature of demographic change means that departmentally based solutions will never, never, never provide a coherent response.
We have to cut through what I call the firewalls, which suggest that the issues raised by demographic change are not appropriate subject for discussion, and we have to call out cases where any proper discussion is closed down as a result of what Dame Sara Khan called in her government Commission review on social cohesion freedom restricting harassment. Thus, as an example, while it is perfectly acceptable to discuss policies to help achieve net zero, it is not acceptable. Not acceptable to suggest that adding 6 million people to this country might impede that achieving that objective.
So I believe, my Lords, there is a strong argument for creating a new strategic body to be called the office for Demographic Change, or perhaps the office for Population Sustainability, which would subsume within it the existing Migration Advisory Committee. It will be tasked with learning from the past to collect evidence about and analyse consequences of past policies with looking to the future, impacts of likely population changes, economic, environmental, ecological, societal and finally to undertake research into demographic developments and to learn from best practice around the world.
It would, however, not be a policy making body. This new authority will be stand alone, but reporting to the Cabinet Office, Cabinet Office and of course it would also report at least annually to Parliament. It would help create conditions by Lords for a broader, better and more balanced discussion about democracy. For example, is there a maximum level annual population increase we can absorb without prejudicing the position of our population? What can be done to improve the data sources which are clearly inadequate? Is there an argument for seeking to increase the birth rate amongst existing population and so on? So let me conclude, my Lords, the governments may choose to continue to muddle along, but recent events have shown rising public temperature and these pressures seem set to increase.
It is not just individual events such as Crowborough or Epping, it is about public mood. And so the issue seems set to be become a major driver of political change. Writing in The Times on the 15th of September, Trevor Phillips article was headlined and I quote dismissed the United Kingdom March at your peril, unquote. And he went on to say, again, I quote, calling this movement the product of extremist rabble rousers will no longer do. Mainstream politicians must wake up, unquote.
Successive governments, my Lords, have tried ignoring the problem, insinuating that those who are concerned about it is racist, suggesting nothing can be done about it, and that if only everyone would stop talking about it, it would go away. Or finally making aspirational statements with no measurable follow through. The mainstream parties here in your Lordships' House now need to set up a comprehensive, measurable response to public concerns. My report suggests one such approach, but if we fail to respond, events will likely become increasingly ugly.
As wild as spirits make the running, I can think of no more pressing threat to expressing internal threat to the long term prosperity and harmony of our, of our society, of this country than our future population levels. So I'm proud and I'm pleased to be able to hold my valedictory debate on this topic. And I beg to move.
14:01
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Crossbench)
-
-
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Crossbench)
The question is that this motion be agreed to. My Lords, it's.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Honour and a pleasure to. Follow the noble Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Opening of this debate, and I want to add my admiration for his want to add my admiration for his work over the over the years. And in those years, when I was a party political politician, we were in on political politician, we were in on the other side. In many ways I was a West Midlands politician. So I would have come across a great many would have come across a great many of the people who have played a role in his political life.
And I'm particularly glad that we're having this debate because it's on a subject which is so important. But for reasons which I don't entirely understand, we are extremely reluctant to debate. And the noble Lords started by hinting at some of the problems we appear to be having, and I do sometimes wonder whether it literally goes back to the 1970s, when you had countries like China and India trying either with a one child policy or in India, in a particularly aggressive population control policy, that that that started us to shy away from this as a subject, which we shouldn't address.
But I think we'd be wrong to do so, and we'd be wrong to do so for a number of reasons. And the one aspect I want to focus on, which is in the report, is actually the one on national security. And in, in, in, in the report, don't stop thinking about tomorrow. Professor Michael Clarke, his chapter is headed ask not what your country can do for you and the implications for National security of demographic change. And I think he very accurately, and I think with an important focus is on what is national cohesion.
He takes us through the various arguments, but he essentially says the UK's demographic development and the way it interprets its own deep and erstwhile pluralism can be either strength or a weakness in these circumstances, on the one hand a source of deeper resilience and on the other, a series of fault lines capable of exploitation by the country's adversaries. And I think this danger that could be a strength. We must not allow it to become a weakness by not addressing some of the issues and having some open discussions, he essentially concludes that as long as we don't face these internal and external security challenges, our demographic evolution will be addressed largely through strategies merely of hope rather than anything more precise or new approaches based on better knowledge and understanding of the phenomenon.
So I think he identifies the things which we need to look at if resilience and national defence and national security play into the debate about demography, and in a sense, the government has acknowledged that that is an issue. If you go back to the Strategic Defence Review from 2025, it actually has home defence and resilience, and it very explicitly calls for a whole of society approach. And in that whole of society approach, it calls for building national resilience, increasing national warfighting readiness.
It makes it clear the government must promote unity of effort across society, leading a national conversation to raise public awareness of the threats to the UK, how defence deters and protects against them, and why defence requires support to strengthen the national resilience. And it states what ought to be obvious but is often forgotten. The connection between the UK armed forces and wider society is a long standing and necessary foundation for the defence of the country, and that all of that requires cohesion of society and for cohesion to happen, it requires certain other elements, and this may also be the moment to declare that I am an honorary captain in the Royal Navy's Reserve Force.
All right. Navy's Reserve Force. All right. Thank you. And it's it's it's it's. And on top of that, I am what you would have called an immigrant. I came in in the early 70s. And I do think that this report, when it says we don't have we mustn't stop thinking about tomorrow. I would challenge and say we probably haven't even properly started to think about tomorrow. And if I just were to open today's newspapers or listen to the news, it tells me it asks, Will residential doctors strike again or is offered to provide extra places for early career doctors? Sufficient now, as the the noble Lord reminded us that in demographic terms, the 2000 is yesterday.
I'm now talking about something called yesterday because it was 25 years ago that we published the Black Country Strategy, and it identified in terms of doctors, the needs of a region. It made connections between doctors and nurses propensity to remain in the region in which they had trained. It therefore, said the regions which require those extra doctors which require between three, seven and 15 years to be fully trained, Birmingham University requires 100 extra places. So there's a logic in that approach and you take a regional needs demography and what happens.
So it's not that we don't know how to do it, but somehow we seem to curiously keep forgetting how the decisions which we've made, which at one stage were long term, we kind of pull back from. So when the places the Birmingham University Medical School were cut, I couldn't I literally could not find out who had made that decision. In 2025. We're seeing those consequences. So we're talking about ageing population. We talk about pension contributions. We talk about inheritance tax. And as the noble Lord himself said about higher education and a system where we ended up creating an extraordinary dependency for the funding of higher education students on international students without having thought through the consequences.
So I won't go on with those examples, but I want to say that I always was taken back to 2008, when the the late Majesty the Queen Elizabeth went to the London Stock Exchange in the wake of the financial crisis. And she essentially said to them, why did nobody notice it? Why did nobody see this coming? And then the answer to this was, roughly speaking, at every stage someone was relying on somebody else, and everybody thought that there were individually were doing the right thing.
And what they did not do is either see how these individual decisions were hanging together, or what the consequences of a very complex system were. And I fear that with a lot of these debates as, as, as recently told by Minister, when I raised the problem and they looked at me rather surprised and said, the facts are known now. Yes, I know the facts are known, but what are we doing with them? And with a lot of what is in that report? The facts are known, but we do need to pull them together in a way that they become a meaningful basis for future decision making.
And as the noble Lord said, there's this office for demographic changes, and I can see the logic. I would just like to add one extra dimension, because this is a report by the Common Good Foundation, and therefore I think it would be it would be wrong of me not to mention that in all this there is a need for identity, community and belonging. And these are things which are too easily overlooked, whether it's cohesion or resilience, it is community. It is feeling of belonging to the community, and it is having a sense of identity.
And that's why the national debate should also have a very local dimension. And I hasten to ever try and go back to Victorian values. But there's one Victorian value which I would like recommend to the house, and that is the civic audacity of a Joe Chamberlain in Birmingham. It was a kind of confidence in place. It was where cities would compete with each other to be better than the other one. Their competition wasn't based on having to fight for a central pot of money, which was coming out of Whitehall, because that doesn't lead to good decision making.
And I think similarly on the debate on demography, I think we do need national figures, but I do think we need some very granular regional figures and regional data, and one which takes account of the needs of those communities. And I do think there will be best met by those local communities themselves. They have to take ownership of those. And therefore this whole society approach, together with a bit of civic audacity, will give us, allow us to have a national view, but have a regional implementation because we will not be able to face the problems which are coming our way, whether it's either in some pockets of highly ageing populations or in other areas that we don't have the facilities in terms of schools or medical facilities, we can see them coming, we can plan, but only if we're willing to face up to it, have the data, but implement it in a much more granular way than we do at the moment.
Because if we don't start to think about the future, it's going to happen whether we like it or not. And we can't go on just
**** Possible New Speaker ****
being surprised by things. I'm grateful to the noble Lords
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm grateful to the noble Lords Lord Hodgson for his work in bringing together this report, and for giving us the opportunity today to debate it. I want to add my to debate it. I want to add my thanks to him for his fascinating speech today, and indeed his wider contribution to this House, and to contribution to this House, and to wish him well for the future. The authors of this report raise authors of this report raise various thorny policy problems, each of which demands careful negotiations so as to manage conflicting trade offs.
It would be easy to brush them aside in favour of more electorally popular concerns, or to oversimplify them, to stoke division. But I want to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Honour and a pleasure to. Follow the noble Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Opening of this debate, and I want to add my admiration for his want to add my admiration for his work over the over the years. And in those years, when I was a party political politician, we were in on political politician, we were in on the other side. In many ways I was a West Midlands politician. So I would have come across a great many would have come across a great many of the people who have played a role in his political life.
And I'm particularly glad that we're having this debate because it's on a subject which is so important. But for reasons which I don't entirely understand, we are extremely reluctant to debate. And the noble Lords started by hinting at some of the problems we appear to be having, and I do sometimes wonder whether it literally goes back to the 1970s, when you had countries like China and India trying either with a one child policy or in India, in a particularly aggressive population control policy, that that that started us to shy away from this as a subject, which we shouldn't address.
But I think we'd be wrong to do so, and we'd be wrong to do so for a number of reasons. And the one aspect I want to focus on, which is in the report, is actually the one on national security. And in, in, in, in the report, don't stop thinking about tomorrow. Professor Michael Clarke, his chapter is headed ask not what your country can do for you and the implications for National security of demographic change. And I think he very accurately, and I think with an important focus is on what is national cohesion.
He takes us through the various arguments, but he essentially says the UK's demographic development and the way it interprets its own deep and erstwhile pluralism can be either strength or a weakness in these circumstances, on the one hand a source of deeper resilience and on the other, a series of fault lines capable of exploitation by the country's adversaries. And I think this danger that could be a strength. We must not allow it to become a weakness by not addressing some of the issues and having some open discussions, he essentially concludes that as long as we don't face these internal and external security challenges, our demographic evolution will be addressed largely through strategies merely of hope rather than anything more precise or new approaches based on better knowledge and understanding of the phenomenon.
So I think he identifies the things which we need to look at if resilience and national defence and national security play into the debate about demography, and in a sense, the government has acknowledged that that is an issue. If you go back to the Strategic Defence Review from 2025, it actually has home defence and resilience, and it very explicitly calls for a whole of society approach. And in that whole of society approach, it calls for building national resilience, increasing national warfighting readiness.
It makes it clear the government must promote unity of effort across society, leading a national conversation to raise public awareness of the threats to the UK, how defence deters and protects against them, and why defence requires support to strengthen the national resilience. And it states what ought to be obvious but is often forgotten. The connection between the UK armed forces and wider society is a long standing and necessary foundation for the defence of the country, and that all of that requires cohesion of society and for cohesion to happen, it requires certain other elements, and this may also be the moment to declare that I am an honorary captain in the Royal Navy's Reserve Force.
All right. Navy's Reserve Force. All right. Thank you. And it's it's it's it's. And on top of that, I am what you would have called an immigrant. I came in in the early 70s. And I do think that this report, when it says we don't have we mustn't stop thinking about tomorrow. I would challenge and say we probably haven't even properly started to think about tomorrow. And if I just were to open today's newspapers or listen to the news, it tells me it asks, Will residential doctors strike again or is offered to provide extra places for early career doctors? Sufficient now, as the the noble Lord reminded us that in demographic terms, the 2000 is yesterday.
I'm now talking about something called yesterday because it was 25 years ago that we published the Black Country Strategy, and it identified in terms of doctors, the needs of a region. It made connections between doctors and nurses propensity to remain in the region in which they had trained. It therefore, said the regions which require those extra doctors which require between three, seven and 15 years to be fully trained, Birmingham University requires 100 extra places. So there's a logic in that approach and you take a regional needs demography and what happens.
So it's not that we don't know how to do it, but somehow we seem to curiously keep forgetting how the decisions which we've made, which at one stage were long term, we kind of pull back from. So when the places the Birmingham University Medical School were cut, I couldn't I literally could not find out who had made that decision. In 2025. We're seeing those consequences. So we're talking about ageing population. We talk about pension contributions. We talk about inheritance tax. And as the noble Lord himself said about higher education and a system where we ended up creating an extraordinary dependency for the funding of higher education students on international students without having thought through the consequences.
So I won't go on with those examples, but I want to say that I always was taken back to 2008, when the the late Majesty the Queen Elizabeth went to the London Stock Exchange in the wake of the financial crisis. And she essentially said to them, why did nobody notice it? Why did nobody see this coming? And then the answer to this was, roughly speaking, at every stage someone was relying on somebody else, and everybody thought that there were individually were doing the right thing.
And what they did not do is either see how these individual decisions were hanging together, or what the consequences of a very complex system were. And I fear that with a lot of these debates as, as, as recently told by Minister, when I raised the problem and they looked at me rather surprised and said, the facts are known now. Yes, I know the facts are known, but what are we doing with them? And with a lot of what is in that report? The facts are known, but we do need to pull them together in a way that they become a meaningful basis for future decision making.
And as the noble Lord said, there's this office for demographic changes, and I can see the logic. I would just like to add one extra dimension, because this is a report by the Common Good Foundation, and therefore I think it would be it would be wrong of me not to mention that in all this there is a need for identity, community and belonging. And these are things which are too easily overlooked, whether it's cohesion or resilience, it is community. It is feeling of belonging to the community, and it is having a sense of identity.
And that's why the national debate should also have a very local dimension. And I hasten to ever try and go back to Victorian values. But there's one Victorian value which I would like recommend to the house, and that is the civic audacity of a Joe Chamberlain in Birmingham. It was a kind of confidence in place. It was where cities would compete with each other to be better than the other one. Their competition wasn't based on having to fight for a central pot of money, which was coming out of Whitehall, because that doesn't lead to good decision making.
And I think similarly on the debate on demography, I think we do need national figures, but I do think we need some very granular regional figures and regional data, and one which takes account of the needs of those communities. And I do think there will be best met by those local communities themselves. They have to take ownership of those. And therefore this whole society approach, together with a bit of civic audacity, will give us, allow us to have a national view, but have a regional implementation because we will not be able to face the problems which are coming our way, whether it's either in some pockets of highly ageing populations or in other areas that we don't have the facilities in terms of schools or medical facilities, we can see them coming, we can plan, but only if we're willing to face up to it, have the data, but implement it in a much more granular way than we do at the moment.
Because if we don't start to think about the future, it's going to happen whether we like it or not. And we can't go on just
**** Possible New Speaker ****
being surprised by things. I'm grateful to the noble Lords
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I'm grateful to the noble Lords Lord Hodgson for his work in bringing together this report, and for giving us the opportunity today to debate it. I want to add my to debate it. I want to add my thanks to him for his fascinating speech today, and indeed his wider contribution to this House, and to contribution to this House, and to wish him well for the future. The authors of this report raise authors of this report raise various thorny policy problems, each of which demands careful negotiations so as to manage conflicting trade offs.
It would be easy to brush them aside in favour of more electorally popular concerns, or to oversimplify them, to stoke division. But I want to
14:11
The Lord Bishop of Leicester (Bishops)
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The Lord Bishop of Leicester (Bishops)
put on record, firstly, my support for an open debate on questions for an open debate on questions such as what is a reasonable level of population growth? It may be an of population growth? It may be an uncomfortable question, but what are we here for if not to model healthy, mature debates on healthy, mature debates on uncomfortable questions? I want to then focus my remarks on the chapter on Social Cohesion by chapter on Social Cohesion by Bishop Michael Nazir-ali. While I would differ from Doctor Nazar Ali on few of his points, I welcome his overall thrust calling for more attention to be paid to the fabric of our society and how it is affected by the demographic shifts noted in the report.
Perhaps, though, of course it is not attention that is wanting. We're not short of policy papers, polling results or comment pieces telling us that we are a divided, a lonely and a polarised nation. Ironically, that seems to be the one view that we're all agreed on, but rather what is needed beyond simply attention is action and leadership. The former faith Minister, Lord Khan is among those calling for a clear social cohesion strategy, and I want to add my voice to that.
And indeed, my first question is to ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, can she assure us that the government is working on such a social cohesion strategy and doing so as a matter of urgency? I used the phrase social cohesion deliberately rather than integration, because I think what is needed is something more than support for newcomers to the UK to settle well, here and here my emphasis is slightly different from that of Doctor Michael Nazir-ali. I think if we were only immigration that affected the strength of our communities, then we would find higher loneliness, lower levels of civic participation and of social action and a reduced sense of belonging in areas with higher immigration.
But that is not what the data shows. Once researchers control for poverty and neighbourhood deprivation, then any negative correlation between diversity and social cohesion disappears. So, yes, the government should pay attention to how new migrants can be supported to become active participants in our communities. I would give one example as restoring the funding for Esol programmes to its previous level. It is almost impossible for somebody to navigate British society, let alone appreciate our history and values if they cannot understand English.
But that by itself will not heal our fractures. We need to wrestle honestly with the toll taken by poverty, deindustrialisation, decades of increasing individualism, institutional distrust and inequality. And we must take seriously the fact that the media and social media do best, commercially speaking, when they drive us further apart. And indeed, we know there are global actors who use social media and who have no shortage of funding to sow discord and fear.
In one of the letters of the Bible, Saint Paul describes the church as a body with many members, all different and each indispensable. This is the image which I believe should ground a social cohesion strategy. How can we all be supported and encouraged to use our gifts to serve the common good, and to feel a sense of belonging? Even I would say, obligation to one another? Our debate today will naturally focus on what the government should do and when it comes to social cohesion, governments certainly have an important role.
They can and should invest in community infrastructure, enforce laws against discrimination, create conditions in which trust can grow but to be sustainable and fruitful, everyone has to feel a sense of responsibility for our common life. I would like to see every institution from schools, universities, businesses, public services, sports, arts, cultural organisations, everyone recognising that bringing people together across difference is part of their social responsibility. And so I close by asking the Minister would she agree with such a whole society approach, and can she share how the government plans to achieve it?
Perhaps, though, of course it is not attention that is wanting. We're not short of policy papers, polling results or comment pieces telling us that we are a divided, a lonely and a polarised nation. Ironically, that seems to be the one view that we're all agreed on, but rather what is needed beyond simply attention is action and leadership. The former faith Minister, Lord Khan is among those calling for a clear social cohesion strategy, and I want to add my voice to that.
And indeed, my first question is to ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, can she assure us that the government is working on such a social cohesion strategy and doing so as a matter of urgency? I used the phrase social cohesion deliberately rather than integration, because I think what is needed is something more than support for newcomers to the UK to settle well, here and here my emphasis is slightly different from that of Doctor Michael Nazir-ali. I think if we were only immigration that affected the strength of our communities, then we would find higher loneliness, lower levels of civic participation and of social action and a reduced sense of belonging in areas with higher immigration.
But that is not what the data shows. Once researchers control for poverty and neighbourhood deprivation, then any negative correlation between diversity and social cohesion disappears. So, yes, the government should pay attention to how new migrants can be supported to become active participants in our communities. I would give one example as restoring the funding for Esol programmes to its previous level. It is almost impossible for somebody to navigate British society, let alone appreciate our history and values if they cannot understand English.
But that by itself will not heal our fractures. We need to wrestle honestly with the toll taken by poverty, deindustrialisation, decades of increasing individualism, institutional distrust and inequality. And we must take seriously the fact that the media and social media do best, commercially speaking, when they drive us further apart. And indeed, we know there are global actors who use social media and who have no shortage of funding to sow discord and fear.
In one of the letters of the Bible, Saint Paul describes the church as a body with many members, all different and each indispensable. This is the image which I believe should ground a social cohesion strategy. How can we all be supported and encouraged to use our gifts to serve the common good, and to feel a sense of belonging? Even I would say, obligation to one another? Our debate today will naturally focus on what the government should do and when it comes to social cohesion, governments certainly have an important role.
They can and should invest in community infrastructure, enforce laws against discrimination, create conditions in which trust can grow but to be sustainable and fruitful, everyone has to feel a sense of responsibility for our common life. I would like to see every institution from schools, universities, businesses, public services, sports, arts, cultural organisations, everyone recognising that bringing people together across difference is part of their social responsibility. And so I close by asking the Minister would she agree with such a whole society approach, and can she share how the government plans to achieve it?
14:16
Lord Blencathra (Conservative)
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Lord Blencathra (Conservative)
My Lords, I, I deeply regret being here today and participating in this debate. I regret it because it is a valedictory speech of a great parliamentarian who should not be stepping down as a mere boy of 83, in House of Lords terms. Just just look at him. He's still as sharp as a tack and gives top class service to this house. Indeed, he's an Aston Martin V8 firing on all cylinders if one is allowed to boast about petrol cars these days.
Okay, when electric terms, he's a Duracell bunny. It just keeps going and going and going and that's something the family can tease him about over Christmas. I'm certain he was and still is, highly active in business. For the last 50 years, he was a director of Securities and Futures Authority for ten years, and after coming to this place, he served on various committees before David Cameron asked him to perform a wholesale review of the Charities Acts of 2006 and 2011, and he published his report in 2012, and in 2021 he co-authored an essay entitled Population Growth, immigration, and the Levelling Up Agenda with my My Noble Friend, the Lord Horam.
Now, however, my Lords, for me it was the period 2019 to 2023 that he made his greatest contribution to this House and indeed to Parliament when he chaired the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. The Slcc and I had the privilege and opportunity to work with him as the chair of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Now, I do say to my noble friend Baroness Hodgson of Abinger, that he will be an absolute nightmare at home, because he will not stop working.
There'll be no slippers and pipe for him, and I expect to read in a couple of years time. Yet another authoritative report by by the noble Lord Lord Hodgson. I mentioned his work as chair of the Slcc. He authored an outstanding report called Government by Diktat A Call to Return Power to Parliament, which received widespread acclaim and is even more relevant today as we see more and more ill thought out secondary legislation bypassing proper parliamentary scrutiny. So, my Lords, I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Common Good Foundations report.
Do not stop thinking about tomorrow, and to pay tribute to my noble friend for bringing this vital analysis to our attention. The report rightly insists that we must think beyond the next election and plan for the demographic, economic and infrastructural realities that will shape our country for decades to come. My noble friend's work sets out a clear, evidence based case population growth, driven in part by migration, creates sustained pressures on housing, water, transport and public services, and there is public concern about the pace of change that is real and politically consequential, and we ignore it at our peril.
As other noble Lords have pointed out, and without long term planning and honest public engagement, we risk undermining social cohesion and democratic trust. But these are not abstract academic points. They are practical governance challenges that demand cross-government thinking and durable policy responses. However, my Lords, I would suggest there is an additional and closely related concern that my noble friend has raised elsewhere and should be folded into our thinking about tomorrow. And here I want to amalgamate the theme in his report, Government by Diktat, where he warned that the increasing use of secondary legislation, regulations and orders subject to far lower parliamentary scrutiny than primary acts has the effect of imposing hundreds of laws with minimal effective oversight, as he put it, quote, government by diktat must not become the norm, unquote.
That in warning matters for the Democratic debate, the demographic debate we are discussing today for two reasons. First, because many of the levers that shape population concerns immigration settings, planning rules, environmental pyramids, infrastructure and approvals are exercised through secondary legislation, through secondary legislation and and a guidance and administrative practice. If those levers are adjusted without robust parliamentary scrutiny, we risk making long term structural choices by stealth rather than by democratic consideration. Second, when major social changes are managed through low scrutiny routes, public confidence in institutions can erode, feeding the very polarisation and distrust that demographic report warns against.
For these reasons, I urge the House to treat my noble friend's two reports as complementary parts of the same argument. Do not stop thinking about tomorrow. Ask us to plan for democratic futures demographic futures. Government by diktat reminds us how we make those plans matters as well as what we decide. Long term strategy requires not only sound analysis and investment, but also transparent, accountable lawmaking and genuine parliamentary oversight. So what then, should we do? I suggest three practical steps that respond to both reports together.
First, my Lords adopt a cross-government demographic strategy with a long term horizon 2030 years ahead. This strategy should align immigration policy, housing supply, water and energy planning, transport investment and local government capacity. It should be published, updated regularly and stress tested against higher and lower population scenarios so that Ministers, local authorities and the public can see the trade offs involved. Second, restore and strengthen parliamentary scrutiny over the instruments that implement that strategy. Where secondary legislation is used, Parliament should receive clearer explanatory material, longer scrutiny windows and, where appropriate, alternative affirmative procedures rather than negative ones.
We get almost in every bill these days, so major changes to planning, migration or infrastructure rules that have long term consequences should be debated openly and honestly and, where necessary, enacted through primary legislation that are full democratic mandate is explicit. And third, my Lords, we should commit to transparent public engagement and local empowerment. Citizens must be given accessible information about population projections. There are assumptions behind them and the likely impacts on services and communities. Local authorities need resources and statutory powers to manage integration and deliver infrastructure at the pace required.
National strategy without local delivery is a recipe for frustration and failure. My Lords, I suggest these steps are practical, not partisan. They are about restoring the balance between the executive and Parliament, and about ensuring that long term policy is made openly and responsibly. They also respond directly to my noble friend's plea that we should not allow emergency modes of lawmaking to become the default. In times of crisis, speed is necessary in terms of planning. Scrutiny is essential. So I want to return, in conclusion to the character of my noble friend's contribution.
He has done us a great service by refusing to treat demographic change as a purely technical problem, or by allowing the mechanics of lawmaking to remain invisible. He is connected statistics to lived experience and legal process to democratic legitimacy. That combination, my Lords data, democratic principle and practical policy is exactly what we need if we are to govern well for the next generation and succeeding generations. In closing, my Lords, I commend his government by diktat report and this current one.
Do not stop thinking about tomorrow to the House. Let us take their combined message seriously. Plan for tomorrow with courage and clarity, and make those plans through processes that Parliament can scrutinise and the public can understand and trust. If we do that, we will not only manage population pressures more effectively, we will also strengthen the institutions that make democratic government possible. My Lords, my noble friend is a deep thinker, a committed parliamentarian, and quite simply a great man. I shall miss him immensely.
Okay, when electric terms, he's a Duracell bunny. It just keeps going and going and going and that's something the family can tease him about over Christmas. I'm certain he was and still is, highly active in business. For the last 50 years, he was a director of Securities and Futures Authority for ten years, and after coming to this place, he served on various committees before David Cameron asked him to perform a wholesale review of the Charities Acts of 2006 and 2011, and he published his report in 2012, and in 2021 he co-authored an essay entitled Population Growth, immigration, and the Levelling Up Agenda with my My Noble Friend, the Lord Horam.
Now, however, my Lords, for me it was the period 2019 to 2023 that he made his greatest contribution to this House and indeed to Parliament when he chaired the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. The Slcc and I had the privilege and opportunity to work with him as the chair of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Now, I do say to my noble friend Baroness Hodgson of Abinger, that he will be an absolute nightmare at home, because he will not stop working.
There'll be no slippers and pipe for him, and I expect to read in a couple of years time. Yet another authoritative report by by the noble Lord Lord Hodgson. I mentioned his work as chair of the Slcc. He authored an outstanding report called Government by Diktat A Call to Return Power to Parliament, which received widespread acclaim and is even more relevant today as we see more and more ill thought out secondary legislation bypassing proper parliamentary scrutiny. So, my Lords, I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Common Good Foundations report.
Do not stop thinking about tomorrow, and to pay tribute to my noble friend for bringing this vital analysis to our attention. The report rightly insists that we must think beyond the next election and plan for the demographic, economic and infrastructural realities that will shape our country for decades to come. My noble friend's work sets out a clear, evidence based case population growth, driven in part by migration, creates sustained pressures on housing, water, transport and public services, and there is public concern about the pace of change that is real and politically consequential, and we ignore it at our peril.
As other noble Lords have pointed out, and without long term planning and honest public engagement, we risk undermining social cohesion and democratic trust. But these are not abstract academic points. They are practical governance challenges that demand cross-government thinking and durable policy responses. However, my Lords, I would suggest there is an additional and closely related concern that my noble friend has raised elsewhere and should be folded into our thinking about tomorrow. And here I want to amalgamate the theme in his report, Government by Diktat, where he warned that the increasing use of secondary legislation, regulations and orders subject to far lower parliamentary scrutiny than primary acts has the effect of imposing hundreds of laws with minimal effective oversight, as he put it, quote, government by diktat must not become the norm, unquote.
That in warning matters for the Democratic debate, the demographic debate we are discussing today for two reasons. First, because many of the levers that shape population concerns immigration settings, planning rules, environmental pyramids, infrastructure and approvals are exercised through secondary legislation, through secondary legislation and and a guidance and administrative practice. If those levers are adjusted without robust parliamentary scrutiny, we risk making long term structural choices by stealth rather than by democratic consideration. Second, when major social changes are managed through low scrutiny routes, public confidence in institutions can erode, feeding the very polarisation and distrust that demographic report warns against.
For these reasons, I urge the House to treat my noble friend's two reports as complementary parts of the same argument. Do not stop thinking about tomorrow. Ask us to plan for democratic futures demographic futures. Government by diktat reminds us how we make those plans matters as well as what we decide. Long term strategy requires not only sound analysis and investment, but also transparent, accountable lawmaking and genuine parliamentary oversight. So what then, should we do? I suggest three practical steps that respond to both reports together.
First, my Lords adopt a cross-government demographic strategy with a long term horizon 2030 years ahead. This strategy should align immigration policy, housing supply, water and energy planning, transport investment and local government capacity. It should be published, updated regularly and stress tested against higher and lower population scenarios so that Ministers, local authorities and the public can see the trade offs involved. Second, restore and strengthen parliamentary scrutiny over the instruments that implement that strategy. Where secondary legislation is used, Parliament should receive clearer explanatory material, longer scrutiny windows and, where appropriate, alternative affirmative procedures rather than negative ones.
We get almost in every bill these days, so major changes to planning, migration or infrastructure rules that have long term consequences should be debated openly and honestly and, where necessary, enacted through primary legislation that are full democratic mandate is explicit. And third, my Lords, we should commit to transparent public engagement and local empowerment. Citizens must be given accessible information about population projections. There are assumptions behind them and the likely impacts on services and communities. Local authorities need resources and statutory powers to manage integration and deliver infrastructure at the pace required.
National strategy without local delivery is a recipe for frustration and failure. My Lords, I suggest these steps are practical, not partisan. They are about restoring the balance between the executive and Parliament, and about ensuring that long term policy is made openly and responsibly. They also respond directly to my noble friend's plea that we should not allow emergency modes of lawmaking to become the default. In times of crisis, speed is necessary in terms of planning. Scrutiny is essential. So I want to return, in conclusion to the character of my noble friend's contribution.
He has done us a great service by refusing to treat demographic change as a purely technical problem, or by allowing the mechanics of lawmaking to remain invisible. He is connected statistics to lived experience and legal process to democratic legitimacy. That combination, my Lords data, democratic principle and practical policy is exactly what we need if we are to govern well for the next generation and succeeding generations. In closing, my Lords, I commend his government by diktat report and this current one.
Do not stop thinking about tomorrow to the House. Let us take their combined message seriously. Plan for tomorrow with courage and clarity, and make those plans through processes that Parliament can scrutinise and the public can understand and trust. If we do that, we will not only manage population pressures more effectively, we will also strengthen the institutions that make democratic government possible. My Lords, my noble friend is a deep thinker, a committed parliamentarian, and quite simply a great man. I shall miss him immensely.
14:25
Lord Faulks (Non-affiliated)
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Lord Faulks (Non-affiliated)
My Lords, I'm. valedictory debate. Initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts. He was one of my supporters when I was introduced into your Lordships House in 2010, and I've had the privilege of sharing a room with him ever since. Although sharing may not be a totally accurate word, the accumulation of paper and the general air of industry in the room is attributable. I'm afraid to him rather than to me. The noble Lord has been an exemplary member of your Lordships House, whether on the front bench, in opposition, or, as we've heard, in chair of committees or as a backbencher, prepared to take on difficult subjects.
Some may remember the debate over the Albert Hall, to which he brought such expertise and common sense. He kindly assisted me in our attempts to establish a register of beneficial ownership for the foreign owners of property in this country, and of particular relevance today. He has regularly drawn attention to the difficult and highly contentious topic of immigration. We will miss him very much as a popular member of the House and as a voice respected on all sides of it.
This report, if it's the right word, is typical of the noble Lord. It provides reliable facts and statistics and includes essays from a number of different perspectives. As the library summary says, demographic changes and population growth due to migration could bring, I quote, very special challenges to the UK, unquote, including in inverted commas, extreme political parties, inverted commas. But the noble Lord does not make crude political points. Rather, his report focuses on matters including the environmental impact of population growth and provides, as he's told us, useful international comparisons.
My Lords, my own view is that as a country, we have been afraid to ask the fundamental question are we entitled to decide who does or does not come here? We have certainly failed to answer that question. Of course, there's much to be gained by refreshing the country with new arrivals. There is also an economic case to be made, and we have an excellent history of accepting refugees. What's more, the expression of any view that appears to oppose immigration can so easily attract allegations of racism.
No wonder centre parties tend to duck these difficult questions. Will our country be happier for the vast increase in population in recent years, almost entirely due to immigration? We have an economy that stubbornly refuses to grow, and a widespread sense that we simply cannot afford the additional cost of immigration. Of course, it's by no means the only cause of the problems we have, but it has contributed to a general malaise. Which reminds me of the late 1970s when I was starting my career.
Jim Callaghan announced that if he were a young man, he would think of leaving the country. I was tempted, I may be wrong, my Lords, but I think the majority of the population thinks that we should be able to control migration. The Brexit vote was very much influenced by the sense that with freedom of movement, we were unable to determine who was allowed to come quite legally to live in our country. Since Brexit, we've had a different sort of migration, much of it in response to particular crises.
But the emphasis politically has been on illegal migration. Legal migration is, at least in theory, something that a country should be capable of controlling. Although there are huge practical challenges in doing so. I do accept that illegal migration is an imprecise term in that many asylum applications succeed, and thus the asylum seeker can become a legal migrant. However, asylum seekers, with the departure of those seeking more friendly economic pastures, are now increasing in both absolute numbers, but also as a proportion of immigration as a whole.
This government and the last simply cannot escape the images of boats crossing the channel and our inability to stop them. The failure to reduce numbers is significantly attributable to international law and our approach to it. We have a dualist system in this country whereby international law is not binding on us at a domestic level, unless we specifically incorporate it into our law. We generally do not do that. With the exception of the European Convention on Human Rights, which was incorporated in the Human Rights Act 1998.
The debate about asylum seekers has focussed very much on our international obligations, whether they emanate from the OECD or the Refugee Convention, or even the rather elusive concept of customary international law. The Home Secretary has recently made some quite pugnacious remarks about tackling illegal migration and rule nothing off the table. How will this is going down with the Prime Minister and that human rights zealot, the attorney general? I don't know, but in my view, unless she tackles the primacy of our national law as opposed to what are often international obligations fashioned in an entirely different context, she will never get control of illegal migration.
The recent efforts to engage with the European Court of Human Rights are unlikely, I fear, to produce significant change, certainly not in the near future. So I return to my fundamental question is Parliament sovereign? Can governments say no? This report is a pertinent and sophisticated analysis of the consequences of mass migration, but I fear that much of the population may take the view that they're looking for rather less sophistication, and that the next election will be characterised by some ugly exchanges.
This will largely be the fault of centre parties for ignoring the reasonable concerns of the population, if that scenario eventuates the noble Lord Lord Hodgson in what I hope will be a long and happy retirement, could be forgiven for saying to himself
**** Possible New Speaker ****
ruefully, I told you so. My Lords. It's a great pleasure to take
**** Possible New Speaker ****
It's a great pleasure to take part in this important debate and to follow the noble Lord. Lord to follow the noble Lord. Lord Foulkes. It is, however, an occasion tinged with sadness because it marks the retirement of one of our most talented, fair, honest and hard working colleagues. honest and hard working colleagues. My noble friend, the Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, and I endorse everything that has been said about his character and his generosity today. He was one of a small band that kept forensic, intelligent and constructive opposition going through for us the bleak years of the Blair government and his experience of that will be a great loss.
Since I joined the House in 2013, the noble Lord has been a great support and a fount of knowledge for me as I battled with business legislation, including the tricky reforms on pubs. As a Minister in the coalition government, he also made a superb contribution as chair of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. As the noble Lord, Lord, my friend Lord Blencathra has already said, that is a body that makes our scrutiny more effective and is incredibly important. And when we sat on the backbenches together through the Brexit years, we tried to improve the immigration and social security coordination.
EU withdrawal Bill in 2020, wresting backs and parliamentary control with a cap on new arrivals or advertising or vacancies in the UK before they were offered to US newcomers, or higher salary thresholds. All of these ideas were rejected at the time, wrongly, as
Some may remember the debate over the Albert Hall, to which he brought such expertise and common sense. He kindly assisted me in our attempts to establish a register of beneficial ownership for the foreign owners of property in this country, and of particular relevance today. He has regularly drawn attention to the difficult and highly contentious topic of immigration. We will miss him very much as a popular member of the House and as a voice respected on all sides of it.
This report, if it's the right word, is typical of the noble Lord. It provides reliable facts and statistics and includes essays from a number of different perspectives. As the library summary says, demographic changes and population growth due to migration could bring, I quote, very special challenges to the UK, unquote, including in inverted commas, extreme political parties, inverted commas. But the noble Lord does not make crude political points. Rather, his report focuses on matters including the environmental impact of population growth and provides, as he's told us, useful international comparisons.
My Lords, my own view is that as a country, we have been afraid to ask the fundamental question are we entitled to decide who does or does not come here? We have certainly failed to answer that question. Of course, there's much to be gained by refreshing the country with new arrivals. There is also an economic case to be made, and we have an excellent history of accepting refugees. What's more, the expression of any view that appears to oppose immigration can so easily attract allegations of racism.
No wonder centre parties tend to duck these difficult questions. Will our country be happier for the vast increase in population in recent years, almost entirely due to immigration? We have an economy that stubbornly refuses to grow, and a widespread sense that we simply cannot afford the additional cost of immigration. Of course, it's by no means the only cause of the problems we have, but it has contributed to a general malaise. Which reminds me of the late 1970s when I was starting my career.
Jim Callaghan announced that if he were a young man, he would think of leaving the country. I was tempted, I may be wrong, my Lords, but I think the majority of the population thinks that we should be able to control migration. The Brexit vote was very much influenced by the sense that with freedom of movement, we were unable to determine who was allowed to come quite legally to live in our country. Since Brexit, we've had a different sort of migration, much of it in response to particular crises.
But the emphasis politically has been on illegal migration. Legal migration is, at least in theory, something that a country should be capable of controlling. Although there are huge practical challenges in doing so. I do accept that illegal migration is an imprecise term in that many asylum applications succeed, and thus the asylum seeker can become a legal migrant. However, asylum seekers, with the departure of those seeking more friendly economic pastures, are now increasing in both absolute numbers, but also as a proportion of immigration as a whole.
This government and the last simply cannot escape the images of boats crossing the channel and our inability to stop them. The failure to reduce numbers is significantly attributable to international law and our approach to it. We have a dualist system in this country whereby international law is not binding on us at a domestic level, unless we specifically incorporate it into our law. We generally do not do that. With the exception of the European Convention on Human Rights, which was incorporated in the Human Rights Act 1998.
The debate about asylum seekers has focussed very much on our international obligations, whether they emanate from the OECD or the Refugee Convention, or even the rather elusive concept of customary international law. The Home Secretary has recently made some quite pugnacious remarks about tackling illegal migration and rule nothing off the table. How will this is going down with the Prime Minister and that human rights zealot, the attorney general? I don't know, but in my view, unless she tackles the primacy of our national law as opposed to what are often international obligations fashioned in an entirely different context, she will never get control of illegal migration.
The recent efforts to engage with the European Court of Human Rights are unlikely, I fear, to produce significant change, certainly not in the near future. So I return to my fundamental question is Parliament sovereign? Can governments say no? This report is a pertinent and sophisticated analysis of the consequences of mass migration, but I fear that much of the population may take the view that they're looking for rather less sophistication, and that the next election will be characterised by some ugly exchanges.
This will largely be the fault of centre parties for ignoring the reasonable concerns of the population, if that scenario eventuates the noble Lord Lord Hodgson in what I hope will be a long and happy retirement, could be forgiven for saying to himself
**** Possible New Speaker ****
ruefully, I told you so. My Lords. It's a great pleasure to take
**** Possible New Speaker ****
It's a great pleasure to take part in this important debate and to follow the noble Lord. Lord to follow the noble Lord. Lord Foulkes. It is, however, an occasion tinged with sadness because it marks the retirement of one of our most talented, fair, honest and hard working colleagues. honest and hard working colleagues. My noble friend, the Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, and I endorse everything that has been said about his character and his generosity today. He was one of a small band that kept forensic, intelligent and constructive opposition going through for us the bleak years of the Blair government and his experience of that will be a great loss.
Since I joined the House in 2013, the noble Lord has been a great support and a fount of knowledge for me as I battled with business legislation, including the tricky reforms on pubs. As a Minister in the coalition government, he also made a superb contribution as chair of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. As the noble Lord, Lord, my friend Lord Blencathra has already said, that is a body that makes our scrutiny more effective and is incredibly important. And when we sat on the backbenches together through the Brexit years, we tried to improve the immigration and social security coordination.
EU withdrawal Bill in 2020, wresting backs and parliamentary control with a cap on new arrivals or advertising or vacancies in the UK before they were offered to US newcomers, or higher salary thresholds. All of these ideas were rejected at the time, wrongly, as
14:34
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
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Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
it's now clear. Lord Hodgson's underlying rationale, then, was the underlying rationale, then, was the likely surge in immigration and indeed the impact of that demand on indeed the impact of that demand on on demand for housing and the consequences for water and for consequences for water and for nature. And on 30th September 2020, he criticised the Home Office for an attitude which essentially said an attitude which essentially said don't worry, it will all be all right on the night. His measured warnings on demography and his call even then for an office for demographic change were well grounded and admirably unemotional.
And I'm only sorry that he had to be a Cassandra in this respect. I hope nobody will deny the proposition that demography is a very important subject. It's especially important when populations are changing rapidly, such as we've seen in recent years. Indeed, demography in the form of one of its components, namely immigration, has for many years been at the top or near the top of the subjects that voters deem to be the most important political issues of the day. So UK citizens were fully seized of its importance.
They judge correctly. After all, immigration policy that is an aspect of demography was plausibly a principal cause of Brexit and of the rise of reform which now leads in the polls. As we've heard, Take Back Control was largely a political response to what was then regarded as large waves of immigration, for which nobody had voted or indeed been asked to vote. And unfortunately, governments, political parties and legislatures have not shown the same clear headedness as our voters. Indeed, they frequently acted like proverbial ostrich, determined to see nothing and to direct attention elsewhere.
This went on for many years before the very recent reluctant, tacit acceptance by all parties, including the party currently in government, that the subject deserved more attention and more action. I am afraid that in this process we in this House have not covered ourselves in glory. When presented by my noble friend Lord Hodgson, with the opportunity to consider what was known to be of major importance to many voters, we have instead been content to pretend that much lesser issues deserved more attention.
We did not support his proposal for a new office, and we repeatedly turned down his request for a special committee of inquiry on this subject. So, to our shame, we join the ostriches on that. But today we have the opportunity to set this right by properly and fairly examining the noble Lords report, and we should do so in reading it, I was immediately struck by the stark simplicity of his statistics and the quality of the different contributors. The population grew from 55.9 million in 19 71 to 60 7.6 million in 2022.
And of course, that has accelerated. The fertility rate, however, has fallen rapidly from 2.44 in 1970. As the report shows, the most recent figures from the ONS are 1.41 per woman in 2024. In England and Wales, that's the lowest on record and 1.25 per woman in Scotland. Unfortunately, as Professor Sefton points out, Pro-natal policies do not seem to be very effective. The most pragmatic response is to reinforce the trend of older workers retiring later. So we need to make that easier and improve the incentives to employers who tend to discriminate against older workers.
As I found when I conducted the review of the state pension age in 2022, another worrying statistic highlighted by Professor Sarah Harper is that the UK population over 65 is predicted to reach some 25% by the middle of the century, with 2% over 85. That is, some 1.5 million people, and it's likely to double within two decades. This means smaller numbers of productive people paying for the non-productive. In a country where productivity has already been flatlining since the financial crisis during the last Labour government.
Now we know from the work of the OBR how disastrous the increase in the proportion of the elderly will be for the nation's finances. One of the reasons why I proposed a GDP related growth cap on pension expenditure. In my review. We can also learn from Japan, as we know from the report, who have a more open attitude to employing older workers, and this could have a dramatic effect on the dependency ratio on the UK's future finances and indeed the nation's health.
As those of us who are lucky enough to work in this House know, working has a generally positive effect on health. Some little known and puzzling statistics on page 21 of my noble friend's report are those on National Insurance numbers in 2024, it is difficult to see how the 940,000 National Insurance numbers, 60% to Asian nationals, can be reconciled with the much lower number of work visas that have been issued now. Lord Hodgson. I quizzed Home Office Ministers on the defects of immigration statistics during the passage of past legislation, but they appeared to have a very surprising degree of faith in their statistics and a resistance to looking forward at the future implications.
It took several precious years for the establishment to accept that reality. Other important statistics have been mentioned by others, for example, that England has a has a population of 438 people per square mile and will have a higher population than Germany on current trends. And this is highlighted by Professor Michael Clarke in a very interesting contribution on national security, which the noble Baroness Stewart of Edgbaston has rightly mentioned. But all of this leads to the report's conclusion that there is a problem finding properly based and appropriately focussed data to tell us what is going on.
It means there is a strong case for a new body. Following the precedent of the independent Dutch State Commission on Demography 2050, and as advocated so eloquently and frequently by my noble friend, we have a problem. As the report makes clear, in the widely differing levels of acceptability of discussing big strategic decisions. So climate change and net zero have been the subject of extensive debate, and have their own well resourced climate change committee, yet adding 6 to 10 million more people to our population will not only set back climate change, but will have a major effect on our country, our children, our grandchildren and of course, our schools, hospitals, housing and infrastructure.
We also need to get under the skin of net migration. As we discussed in the budget debate last week, we are now losing many entrepreneurs and more of the young and ambitious because of the weight of taxation and the growing burdens on business ushered in by this government. So net migration has reduced significantly from its record levels. But in the year to June 2025, we were still seeing 898,000 new arrivals, many of them hard to accommodate here and creating a drain on public expenditure and pressure on benefits.
I think we need to understand this and the social and regional ramifications much better. So in closing, I'd like to thank the Leader of the Opposition and his Chief Whip for finding time at last for this important debate and invite the government to establish a new demography or population authority. Given the expertise in this House and its convening power, we should also tackle issues in one of our committees. Such changes would be an appropriate legacy to my noble friend Lord Hodgson's 50 year contribution to Parliament, to public life and to evidence based debate.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords. Like others, I want to pay tribute to Lord Hodgson for tribute to Lord Hodgson for securing this debate, but also for bringing forward what I think is bringing forward what I think is his third major report. But of course, there have been numerous contributions in between. And I contributions in between. And I guess over the years he's become somewhat discouraged that perhaps somewhat discouraged that perhaps the governments of the day have not seized the opportunities that have been provided by him and his reports.
But as Baroness Neville-Rolfe rightly said, we're all to blame in Parliament and have been for a long time. None of what
And I'm only sorry that he had to be a Cassandra in this respect. I hope nobody will deny the proposition that demography is a very important subject. It's especially important when populations are changing rapidly, such as we've seen in recent years. Indeed, demography in the form of one of its components, namely immigration, has for many years been at the top or near the top of the subjects that voters deem to be the most important political issues of the day. So UK citizens were fully seized of its importance.
They judge correctly. After all, immigration policy that is an aspect of demography was plausibly a principal cause of Brexit and of the rise of reform which now leads in the polls. As we've heard, Take Back Control was largely a political response to what was then regarded as large waves of immigration, for which nobody had voted or indeed been asked to vote. And unfortunately, governments, political parties and legislatures have not shown the same clear headedness as our voters. Indeed, they frequently acted like proverbial ostrich, determined to see nothing and to direct attention elsewhere.
This went on for many years before the very recent reluctant, tacit acceptance by all parties, including the party currently in government, that the subject deserved more attention and more action. I am afraid that in this process we in this House have not covered ourselves in glory. When presented by my noble friend Lord Hodgson, with the opportunity to consider what was known to be of major importance to many voters, we have instead been content to pretend that much lesser issues deserved more attention.
We did not support his proposal for a new office, and we repeatedly turned down his request for a special committee of inquiry on this subject. So, to our shame, we join the ostriches on that. But today we have the opportunity to set this right by properly and fairly examining the noble Lords report, and we should do so in reading it, I was immediately struck by the stark simplicity of his statistics and the quality of the different contributors. The population grew from 55.9 million in 19 71 to 60 7.6 million in 2022.
And of course, that has accelerated. The fertility rate, however, has fallen rapidly from 2.44 in 1970. As the report shows, the most recent figures from the ONS are 1.41 per woman in 2024. In England and Wales, that's the lowest on record and 1.25 per woman in Scotland. Unfortunately, as Professor Sefton points out, Pro-natal policies do not seem to be very effective. The most pragmatic response is to reinforce the trend of older workers retiring later. So we need to make that easier and improve the incentives to employers who tend to discriminate against older workers.
As I found when I conducted the review of the state pension age in 2022, another worrying statistic highlighted by Professor Sarah Harper is that the UK population over 65 is predicted to reach some 25% by the middle of the century, with 2% over 85. That is, some 1.5 million people, and it's likely to double within two decades. This means smaller numbers of productive people paying for the non-productive. In a country where productivity has already been flatlining since the financial crisis during the last Labour government.
Now we know from the work of the OBR how disastrous the increase in the proportion of the elderly will be for the nation's finances. One of the reasons why I proposed a GDP related growth cap on pension expenditure. In my review. We can also learn from Japan, as we know from the report, who have a more open attitude to employing older workers, and this could have a dramatic effect on the dependency ratio on the UK's future finances and indeed the nation's health.
As those of us who are lucky enough to work in this House know, working has a generally positive effect on health. Some little known and puzzling statistics on page 21 of my noble friend's report are those on National Insurance numbers in 2024, it is difficult to see how the 940,000 National Insurance numbers, 60% to Asian nationals, can be reconciled with the much lower number of work visas that have been issued now. Lord Hodgson. I quizzed Home Office Ministers on the defects of immigration statistics during the passage of past legislation, but they appeared to have a very surprising degree of faith in their statistics and a resistance to looking forward at the future implications.
It took several precious years for the establishment to accept that reality. Other important statistics have been mentioned by others, for example, that England has a has a population of 438 people per square mile and will have a higher population than Germany on current trends. And this is highlighted by Professor Michael Clarke in a very interesting contribution on national security, which the noble Baroness Stewart of Edgbaston has rightly mentioned. But all of this leads to the report's conclusion that there is a problem finding properly based and appropriately focussed data to tell us what is going on.
It means there is a strong case for a new body. Following the precedent of the independent Dutch State Commission on Demography 2050, and as advocated so eloquently and frequently by my noble friend, we have a problem. As the report makes clear, in the widely differing levels of acceptability of discussing big strategic decisions. So climate change and net zero have been the subject of extensive debate, and have their own well resourced climate change committee, yet adding 6 to 10 million more people to our population will not only set back climate change, but will have a major effect on our country, our children, our grandchildren and of course, our schools, hospitals, housing and infrastructure.
We also need to get under the skin of net migration. As we discussed in the budget debate last week, we are now losing many entrepreneurs and more of the young and ambitious because of the weight of taxation and the growing burdens on business ushered in by this government. So net migration has reduced significantly from its record levels. But in the year to June 2025, we were still seeing 898,000 new arrivals, many of them hard to accommodate here and creating a drain on public expenditure and pressure on benefits.
I think we need to understand this and the social and regional ramifications much better. So in closing, I'd like to thank the Leader of the Opposition and his Chief Whip for finding time at last for this important debate and invite the government to establish a new demography or population authority. Given the expertise in this House and its convening power, we should also tackle issues in one of our committees. Such changes would be an appropriate legacy to my noble friend Lord Hodgson's 50 year contribution to Parliament, to public life and to evidence based debate.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords. Like others, I want to pay tribute to Lord Hodgson for tribute to Lord Hodgson for securing this debate, but also for bringing forward what I think is bringing forward what I think is his third major report. But of course, there have been numerous contributions in between. And I contributions in between. And I guess over the years he's become somewhat discouraged that perhaps somewhat discouraged that perhaps the governments of the day have not seized the opportunities that have been provided by him and his reports.
But as Baroness Neville-Rolfe rightly said, we're all to blame in Parliament and have been for a long time. None of what
14:43
Lord Empey (Ulster Unionist Party)
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Lord Empey (Ulster Unionist Party)
is occurring now is such a surprise. is occurring now is such a surprise. Perhaps the scale of it in recent years has been, but the trend has years has been, but the trend has been there for quite a long time, and there hasn't really been a and there hasn't really been a proper, meaningful debate. Nobody, no political party has put anything meaningful in its manifesto other than vague targets, none of which has ever been met. And we now see the outworkings of that with the changing political landscape.
And if anybody thinks this is simply a flash in the pan, I think they'd be very unwise to harbour those thoughts. It is fair to say that I suppose we go back to the. The Blair government, when mass migration became a feature of our life, when decisions were taken on the accession countries and the European Union, we took people from those countries, some great people, there's no doubt, but we weren't under any legal obligation to do so. It was a decision of this government to to to start that process.
And then, of course, it ultimately led to the erosion of support in this country for our membership of the European Union. And ironically, our departure from the European Union ended up with an acceleration of mass immigration into this country. Now, I think the report has produced a number of statistics, but I just wanted maybe to drill down a wee bit to figures that most people don't grasp what 7 million people means, or 12 million or whatever.
But let's break it down. Let's take the year 2223 to June 23rd. The net figure per week of people coming into this country legally was 23,000 per week. Now imagine what 23,000 people looks like. All of them require accommodation. All of them require water and associated services. 23,000 people per week. We have no possibility whatsoever of being
**** Possible New Speaker ****
week. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It went down in 23, 24 to about 17,500 people per week. And it is 17,500 people per week. And it is down further since. But the net figures are deceiving because unless you know the requirements of the people who are coming in versus the requirements that people who the requirements that people who are leaving and the differences, those figures actually underestimate very dramatically the implications of what we're facing now. All the papers and the evidence.
There's not a day you don't pick up a newspaper without something about the illegal or irregular immigration on the boats and the gangsters who are making a fortune out of this misery. But that actually, in numerical terms, is not the issue, because I think we're running at about 184,000 boat people since 2018. But that is a is a mere few weeks of immigration. If, if, if compared to the legal means. Now, there is no doubt that we all collectively in this Parliament and our our predecessors have been negligent.
You cannot allow and expect change to take place on that scale, and there not be consequences. It's utterly impossible to imagine that you can't have consequences from that. The scale is so large, numbers matter. My own view has been for some time that we do need to institute a pause in this, because unless we slow this down and try and get a cross-party consensus on what the future of our country should look like, I don't want to see it become a stone throwing match, which it very well might very well be in the next few years coming up to another election.
But if there is a consensus in Parliament that we've got to pause this mad rush of people and let's face it, we are issuing the visas. Yes, there's the illegal side of it, but we understand that. But we are issuing the visas. There is a machine somewhere printing them. And unless we do that and think things through and work things out, how do we integrate? How do we maximise the benefits from our population? What contributions can be made? We need thoughts along those lines.
Right reverend Prelate talked about a new effectively was a new contract. We must look at all of these things, but we cannot look at them rationally unless we slow down this mad rush. And there are two areas of our life which are in part responsible our further and higher education sector, which is a very expensive sector, is living on a business model that is making matters worse. It is failing to provide the trained people that this country needs.
And don't forget, we have a growing number of economically inactive people. We are also then allowing businesses to bring people in on work visas at lower wages. And we see that all over the country. But those businesses don't have to pick up the Social Security and other matters arising from those folk who come in. And it's not only the ones who are the work visas, it's their dependents and families. And it goes on and on and on. We are, whether we like it or not, regarded as the soft touch of Europe.
It's the place that has been referred to already that nobody checks, nobody looks at this. We don't know who's in the place. We're losing young people. Hundreds of them have gone missing. We don't know where they are. I've no doubt many of them are being exploited and abused. We don't know where they are. We don't know who they are. People coming in, destroying their identification on so that. How do we know who they are? There's no checks on them. It's impossible.
And yet they'll be in centrally heated hotels this Christmas. And yet up the street here, there'll be people lying in the doorways. So this country has got itself completely divorced from reality. And I have to say, this Parliament is a leading example of it. So I would suggest to the Minister in response, perhaps she'll give some consideration to taking the idea to her right honourable colleague that we've got to take a period of calm to pause this, and we've got to look at the further and higher education model, and we've got to look at the idea that companies can bring people into this country under lower wages.
And that is what's been happening. And, you know, to be perfectly political about it, for a Labour government to be presiding over that, I mean, it's the very antithesis of what the movement I always understood stood for. So I would say that we haven't even touched on the costs. I have been battling with the noble Lord Hanson to try and get some information about the costs of Non-hotel accommodation. We got the costs of hotel accommodation.
We know it's roughly between 5.7 and £6.7 million a day, but that's dealing with that with figures for 32,000 occupants is now 36,000. We have 111,000 people who are not in hotels but are in other forms of accommodation. And of course, there was a a report produced by the Audit Office the other day. And part of the reason why I haven't got an answer to my questions is that the Audit Office has concluded that the Home Office doesn't know.
Because there are different pots from which money is coming. Money is coming from the Foreign Office or overseas development budget that has been fed in as part of this, and then it's under different headings. So the figure that was produced and I got the library very kindly did research the Home Office's figures for the for the last financial year were running at about 4.5 billion. But that doesn't touch the size. We don't take into account the costs of the Border Force.
We don't take into account the huge cost of the legal and other services. We don't take account of the tribunal services that has to wade through all this stuff. And of course, we don't take account of the policing costs where individuals clearly are misbehaving and have to be dealt with through the legal courts. So I would say it's probably it could be anywhere between six, seven, £8 billion a year. And when you we said earlier in the debate, this is one issue where we've ignored things and have buried our heads in the sand, we're also we're pretty good at that.
We haven't built a frigate in this country for 15 years, and we wonder why the clapped out and we haven't. We've only seven that are operational, which is half what we had in 2010. We're good at that, keeping our heads under the sand. So I would say to the Minister, please bring to her colleagues attention the serious implications of ignoring the problems that we're now facing. We all want can work together. We want to avoid extremism triumphing as a result of this.
And it will if we continue to sit and do nothing. So it is primarily the responsibility of the opposition. But I believe other parties in this chamber would be very happy to work with the government to create a strategy that has some possibility
**** Possible New Speaker ****
of achieving public support. My Lords. Can I begin by
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords. Can I begin by associating myself with all the good things that have been said thus far by noble Lords about our thus far by noble Lords about our noble friend, Lord Hodgson? And I also want to pay tribute to him for also want to pay tribute to him for securing this debate, and also say a major thank you, a thank you a major thank you, a thank you because back in the early 1980s, 1990s, when I first met the noble
And if anybody thinks this is simply a flash in the pan, I think they'd be very unwise to harbour those thoughts. It is fair to say that I suppose we go back to the. The Blair government, when mass migration became a feature of our life, when decisions were taken on the accession countries and the European Union, we took people from those countries, some great people, there's no doubt, but we weren't under any legal obligation to do so. It was a decision of this government to to to start that process.
And then, of course, it ultimately led to the erosion of support in this country for our membership of the European Union. And ironically, our departure from the European Union ended up with an acceleration of mass immigration into this country. Now, I think the report has produced a number of statistics, but I just wanted maybe to drill down a wee bit to figures that most people don't grasp what 7 million people means, or 12 million or whatever.
But let's break it down. Let's take the year 2223 to June 23rd. The net figure per week of people coming into this country legally was 23,000 per week. Now imagine what 23,000 people looks like. All of them require accommodation. All of them require water and associated services. 23,000 people per week. We have no possibility whatsoever of being
**** Possible New Speaker ****
week. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It went down in 23, 24 to about 17,500 people per week. And it is 17,500 people per week. And it is down further since. But the net figures are deceiving because unless you know the requirements of the people who are coming in versus the requirements that people who the requirements that people who are leaving and the differences, those figures actually underestimate very dramatically the implications of what we're facing now. All the papers and the evidence.
There's not a day you don't pick up a newspaper without something about the illegal or irregular immigration on the boats and the gangsters who are making a fortune out of this misery. But that actually, in numerical terms, is not the issue, because I think we're running at about 184,000 boat people since 2018. But that is a is a mere few weeks of immigration. If, if, if compared to the legal means. Now, there is no doubt that we all collectively in this Parliament and our our predecessors have been negligent.
You cannot allow and expect change to take place on that scale, and there not be consequences. It's utterly impossible to imagine that you can't have consequences from that. The scale is so large, numbers matter. My own view has been for some time that we do need to institute a pause in this, because unless we slow this down and try and get a cross-party consensus on what the future of our country should look like, I don't want to see it become a stone throwing match, which it very well might very well be in the next few years coming up to another election.
But if there is a consensus in Parliament that we've got to pause this mad rush of people and let's face it, we are issuing the visas. Yes, there's the illegal side of it, but we understand that. But we are issuing the visas. There is a machine somewhere printing them. And unless we do that and think things through and work things out, how do we integrate? How do we maximise the benefits from our population? What contributions can be made? We need thoughts along those lines.
Right reverend Prelate talked about a new effectively was a new contract. We must look at all of these things, but we cannot look at them rationally unless we slow down this mad rush. And there are two areas of our life which are in part responsible our further and higher education sector, which is a very expensive sector, is living on a business model that is making matters worse. It is failing to provide the trained people that this country needs.
And don't forget, we have a growing number of economically inactive people. We are also then allowing businesses to bring people in on work visas at lower wages. And we see that all over the country. But those businesses don't have to pick up the Social Security and other matters arising from those folk who come in. And it's not only the ones who are the work visas, it's their dependents and families. And it goes on and on and on. We are, whether we like it or not, regarded as the soft touch of Europe.
It's the place that has been referred to already that nobody checks, nobody looks at this. We don't know who's in the place. We're losing young people. Hundreds of them have gone missing. We don't know where they are. I've no doubt many of them are being exploited and abused. We don't know where they are. We don't know who they are. People coming in, destroying their identification on so that. How do we know who they are? There's no checks on them. It's impossible.
And yet they'll be in centrally heated hotels this Christmas. And yet up the street here, there'll be people lying in the doorways. So this country has got itself completely divorced from reality. And I have to say, this Parliament is a leading example of it. So I would suggest to the Minister in response, perhaps she'll give some consideration to taking the idea to her right honourable colleague that we've got to take a period of calm to pause this, and we've got to look at the further and higher education model, and we've got to look at the idea that companies can bring people into this country under lower wages.
And that is what's been happening. And, you know, to be perfectly political about it, for a Labour government to be presiding over that, I mean, it's the very antithesis of what the movement I always understood stood for. So I would say that we haven't even touched on the costs. I have been battling with the noble Lord Hanson to try and get some information about the costs of Non-hotel accommodation. We got the costs of hotel accommodation.
We know it's roughly between 5.7 and £6.7 million a day, but that's dealing with that with figures for 32,000 occupants is now 36,000. We have 111,000 people who are not in hotels but are in other forms of accommodation. And of course, there was a a report produced by the Audit Office the other day. And part of the reason why I haven't got an answer to my questions is that the Audit Office has concluded that the Home Office doesn't know.
Because there are different pots from which money is coming. Money is coming from the Foreign Office or overseas development budget that has been fed in as part of this, and then it's under different headings. So the figure that was produced and I got the library very kindly did research the Home Office's figures for the for the last financial year were running at about 4.5 billion. But that doesn't touch the size. We don't take into account the costs of the Border Force.
We don't take into account the huge cost of the legal and other services. We don't take account of the tribunal services that has to wade through all this stuff. And of course, we don't take account of the policing costs where individuals clearly are misbehaving and have to be dealt with through the legal courts. So I would say it's probably it could be anywhere between six, seven, £8 billion a year. And when you we said earlier in the debate, this is one issue where we've ignored things and have buried our heads in the sand, we're also we're pretty good at that.
We haven't built a frigate in this country for 15 years, and we wonder why the clapped out and we haven't. We've only seven that are operational, which is half what we had in 2010. We're good at that, keeping our heads under the sand. So I would say to the Minister, please bring to her colleagues attention the serious implications of ignoring the problems that we're now facing. We all want can work together. We want to avoid extremism triumphing as a result of this.
And it will if we continue to sit and do nothing. So it is primarily the responsibility of the opposition. But I believe other parties in this chamber would be very happy to work with the government to create a strategy that has some possibility
**** Possible New Speaker ****
of achieving public support. My Lords. Can I begin by
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords. Can I begin by associating myself with all the good things that have been said thus far by noble Lords about our thus far by noble Lords about our noble friend, Lord Hodgson? And I also want to pay tribute to him for also want to pay tribute to him for securing this debate, and also say a major thank you, a thank you a major thank you, a thank you because back in the early 1980s, 1990s, when I first met the noble
14:55
Baroness Buscombe (Conservative)
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Baroness Buscombe (Conservative)
Lord and also his wife, the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, at my first Conservative Party conference, I well remember the noble Lord encouraged me to become much more engaged in politics. I took his engaged in politics. I took his advice and very quickly found myself first as a district councillor and then a parliamentary councillor and then a parliamentary candidate for Slough in 1997. For the 1997 election. The latter experience taught me a lot and has stayed with me. I realised that just 20 miles from my home in a sweet riverside village, another world of different cultures and beliefs existed and was growing rapidly.
The report, Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow is excellent in many ways, and I want to concentrate upon delving a little deeper regarding the social and cultural impact of mass immigration contained within it, in particular, the challenge of managing different cultures who do not necessarily see eye to eye among themselves and do not necessarily respect our British way of life, nor our rule of law. In Slough, I was quickly introduced to clashes between different communities on nearby Chalvey, which is just a few hundred yards from Windsor Castle.
These were knife fights between young Sikhs and Muslims. The authorities did nothing so as not to upset community relations, a term that, with the ascendance of Blair became multiculturalism, a crazy failure given the absence of any need for meaningful integration into British culture. At that time I was invited often for tea by Hindu families, saying we have too much immigration in this country. They could see and experience what was happening 27 years ago, and some of them were afraid.
Animosity between cultures who have brought their difference with them to this country is still something, as other noble Lords have said, few dare to talk about. One stark example is the current rise in anti-Semitism, which is so appalling and unsettling and upsetting it degrades and shames us all as a people. I well remember young Muslim men born in this country would tell me, our people do not respect your people because the British are weak and don't stand up for what they believe.
I entirely agreed with them. Multiculturalism allowed difference and division to entrench, and we were weak and afraid to confront that for far too long, for fear of causing offence or being called a racist. The treatment of women by some other cultures and nationalities is still a huge problem. The rape gangs say it all. In addition, Pakistan outlawed polygamy years ago, yet here it is, funded through evermore generous state handouts. Whilst most working British couples are seriously asking themselves whether they can afford to have any children at all.
As for the appalling disabilities caused by first cousin marriage, which continues to have a major impact on our NHS children's wards for the long term, what on earth were and are some of our politicians of all persuasions thinking, and why has the taxpayer been funding this barbaric and immoral practice for so long? In addition, how many prosecutions have there been for another barbaric practice FGM? In the past two years, I have heard from midwives who've been threatened and afraid to intervene.
My Lords. In addition, successive politicians have tried to persuade me that polygamy is definitely illegal in this country. So where are Anger and an enormous shift in the political landscape. In 2004, when I was shadow Justice Minister, Blair opened our borders for so-called economic migration and told us that an estimated 7000 people a year would come to our country. We now know that legal migration has far outstripped all estimates. Where was and is the infrastructure to support it? Meanwhile, a net 170,000 highly skilled workers, mostly young, have left this country in the past year to work and live a different life.
A life where there is an energy for growth, prosperity and a future. An anger has been growing, heightened by not only the massive increase in legal migration, but also illegal migration, the latter bringing a deeply worrying force of criminal gangs to our shores. This hasn't happened overnight, however. Politicians have for too long lacked foresight. They have been blinkered by their politics. A House of Commons cross-party defence Committee report, entitled Future Maritime Surveillance Session 20 1213, didn't address any threat of illegal migration using boats.
In addition, the disbandment of the Nimrod Maritime Force, together with the short sighted failure to renew the final maritime patrol patrol aircraft contract with a commercial contractor, Cobham in 2015 meant almost a total loss of our surface maritime aerial surveillance around the British Isles. In response to this extraordinary lack of foresight, in September 2015, I had the audacity to suggest in a debate in your Lordships House and I quote my immediate concern regards maritime security, particularly the security of our borders.
I say this, given the clear and present increased threats from uncontrolled migration quotes. Again, my Lords, that was 2015. My concern was unanswered. Recently things have deteriorated. Now we know that we have serious criminals arriving. We then lose them either from the hotels or from prisons. Is it the Home Office not telling the truth to their political masters? Or are the politicians afraid to tell or even learn the truth? At least the Home Office has now admitted that immigration is out of control, thanks to good journalism and our police and crime commissioners.
We now know that illegal arrivals don't necessarily stay in the hotels, as we also know that the domestic network to manage and assist the illegal boats is to be found in those working in the absurd number of Turkish barbers, vape shops, etc. Why are these people who have not been vetted, not confined? Why are they given money to take the trains and disappear into illegal cash only networks and hang out on our streets? This Monday we learnt that heroin and cocaine is being imported in the stomachs of illegal immigrants.
Why has the government withheld that information? Why aren't we warning every citizen that these shops may well, and often are, sanctuaries for criminal gangs involved in organized crime, money laundering and grooming of our young people into dealing in and delivering drugs. Gangs, often run by Albanians with Kurds and others who may have walked out of the asylum hotels with absolutely no right to be here. I have now learned from a written question that we release convicted foreign adult male criminals awaiting deportation from category C prison, HMP Huntercombe, owing to the Home Office's failure to provide the necessary deportation documents in time.
We are not told how many and how often. In addition, it is now clear from another written answer I've received that the Home Office don't know how many illegal immigrants have simply walked out of asylum hotels in the past five years, and are not accounted for. The Home Secretary, we are told, is speeding up removals. However, I have now asked how can illegal migrants be removed if we don't know where they are? My Lords, you can tell that I'm angry. Angry? For the love of my country and for the future.
For our children and our grandchildren. This is not about being far right. This is about love of country. A love that all those who come from other cultures to live here will naturally feel for their own country. In conclusion, we must stop bending to the absurd notion that mass, uncontrolled immigration can work on our small island. Nor must we keep bending to the criminal and those who take pleasure in trying to destroy or usurp our traditions and our privileges. I will not talk about rights, only others who try to change us talk about their rights.
Thank you, my noble friend Lord Hodgson, for this opportunity to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
speak the truth. Yes. I think we can all agree, my
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I think we can all agree, my Lords, that if anyone deserved a debate on a subject of their choice, debate on a subject of their choice, it is my noble friend, Lord Hodgson of Apsley Abbot. Not simply because of Apsley Abbot. Not simply because of this particular report, with its of this particular report, with its brilliant title asking us to look future, but also a body of work which includes two other major reports of a similar kind on the demographic demographic future of this country.
Also, persistent demands for a select committee to work in this area is my noble friend Neville, Baroness Neville, Rolfe pointed out. And also persistent demands for debates on this subject, but also, as my Lord, my noble friend Lord Blencathra pointed out, for authoritative work on the select Committee, which is so important. Delegated legislation which is so important to this House,
The report, Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow is excellent in many ways, and I want to concentrate upon delving a little deeper regarding the social and cultural impact of mass immigration contained within it, in particular, the challenge of managing different cultures who do not necessarily see eye to eye among themselves and do not necessarily respect our British way of life, nor our rule of law. In Slough, I was quickly introduced to clashes between different communities on nearby Chalvey, which is just a few hundred yards from Windsor Castle.
These were knife fights between young Sikhs and Muslims. The authorities did nothing so as not to upset community relations, a term that, with the ascendance of Blair became multiculturalism, a crazy failure given the absence of any need for meaningful integration into British culture. At that time I was invited often for tea by Hindu families, saying we have too much immigration in this country. They could see and experience what was happening 27 years ago, and some of them were afraid.
Animosity between cultures who have brought their difference with them to this country is still something, as other noble Lords have said, few dare to talk about. One stark example is the current rise in anti-Semitism, which is so appalling and unsettling and upsetting it degrades and shames us all as a people. I well remember young Muslim men born in this country would tell me, our people do not respect your people because the British are weak and don't stand up for what they believe.
I entirely agreed with them. Multiculturalism allowed difference and division to entrench, and we were weak and afraid to confront that for far too long, for fear of causing offence or being called a racist. The treatment of women by some other cultures and nationalities is still a huge problem. The rape gangs say it all. In addition, Pakistan outlawed polygamy years ago, yet here it is, funded through evermore generous state handouts. Whilst most working British couples are seriously asking themselves whether they can afford to have any children at all.
As for the appalling disabilities caused by first cousin marriage, which continues to have a major impact on our NHS children's wards for the long term, what on earth were and are some of our politicians of all persuasions thinking, and why has the taxpayer been funding this barbaric and immoral practice for so long? In addition, how many prosecutions have there been for another barbaric practice FGM? In the past two years, I have heard from midwives who've been threatened and afraid to intervene.
My Lords. In addition, successive politicians have tried to persuade me that polygamy is definitely illegal in this country. So where are Anger and an enormous shift in the political landscape. In 2004, when I was shadow Justice Minister, Blair opened our borders for so-called economic migration and told us that an estimated 7000 people a year would come to our country. We now know that legal migration has far outstripped all estimates. Where was and is the infrastructure to support it? Meanwhile, a net 170,000 highly skilled workers, mostly young, have left this country in the past year to work and live a different life.
A life where there is an energy for growth, prosperity and a future. An anger has been growing, heightened by not only the massive increase in legal migration, but also illegal migration, the latter bringing a deeply worrying force of criminal gangs to our shores. This hasn't happened overnight, however. Politicians have for too long lacked foresight. They have been blinkered by their politics. A House of Commons cross-party defence Committee report, entitled Future Maritime Surveillance Session 20 1213, didn't address any threat of illegal migration using boats.
In addition, the disbandment of the Nimrod Maritime Force, together with the short sighted failure to renew the final maritime patrol patrol aircraft contract with a commercial contractor, Cobham in 2015 meant almost a total loss of our surface maritime aerial surveillance around the British Isles. In response to this extraordinary lack of foresight, in September 2015, I had the audacity to suggest in a debate in your Lordships House and I quote my immediate concern regards maritime security, particularly the security of our borders.
I say this, given the clear and present increased threats from uncontrolled migration quotes. Again, my Lords, that was 2015. My concern was unanswered. Recently things have deteriorated. Now we know that we have serious criminals arriving. We then lose them either from the hotels or from prisons. Is it the Home Office not telling the truth to their political masters? Or are the politicians afraid to tell or even learn the truth? At least the Home Office has now admitted that immigration is out of control, thanks to good journalism and our police and crime commissioners.
We now know that illegal arrivals don't necessarily stay in the hotels, as we also know that the domestic network to manage and assist the illegal boats is to be found in those working in the absurd number of Turkish barbers, vape shops, etc. Why are these people who have not been vetted, not confined? Why are they given money to take the trains and disappear into illegal cash only networks and hang out on our streets? This Monday we learnt that heroin and cocaine is being imported in the stomachs of illegal immigrants.
Why has the government withheld that information? Why aren't we warning every citizen that these shops may well, and often are, sanctuaries for criminal gangs involved in organized crime, money laundering and grooming of our young people into dealing in and delivering drugs. Gangs, often run by Albanians with Kurds and others who may have walked out of the asylum hotels with absolutely no right to be here. I have now learned from a written question that we release convicted foreign adult male criminals awaiting deportation from category C prison, HMP Huntercombe, owing to the Home Office's failure to provide the necessary deportation documents in time.
We are not told how many and how often. In addition, it is now clear from another written answer I've received that the Home Office don't know how many illegal immigrants have simply walked out of asylum hotels in the past five years, and are not accounted for. The Home Secretary, we are told, is speeding up removals. However, I have now asked how can illegal migrants be removed if we don't know where they are? My Lords, you can tell that I'm angry. Angry? For the love of my country and for the future.
For our children and our grandchildren. This is not about being far right. This is about love of country. A love that all those who come from other cultures to live here will naturally feel for their own country. In conclusion, we must stop bending to the absurd notion that mass, uncontrolled immigration can work on our small island. Nor must we keep bending to the criminal and those who take pleasure in trying to destroy or usurp our traditions and our privileges. I will not talk about rights, only others who try to change us talk about their rights.
Thank you, my noble friend Lord Hodgson, for this opportunity to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
speak the truth. Yes. I think we can all agree, my
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I think we can all agree, my Lords, that if anyone deserved a debate on a subject of their choice, debate on a subject of their choice, it is my noble friend, Lord Hodgson of Apsley Abbot. Not simply because of Apsley Abbot. Not simply because of this particular report, with its of this particular report, with its brilliant title asking us to look future, but also a body of work which includes two other major reports of a similar kind on the demographic demographic future of this country.
Also, persistent demands for a select committee to work in this area is my noble friend Neville, Baroness Neville, Rolfe pointed out. And also persistent demands for debates on this subject, but also, as my Lord, my noble friend Lord Blencathra pointed out, for authoritative work on the select Committee, which is so important. Delegated legislation which is so important to this House,
15:05
Lord Horam (Conservative)
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-
Lord Horam (Conservative)
and also to my noble friend for all. Lord Hodgson's work in the party, Lord Hodgson's work in the party, in the Conservative Party, in significant roles as chairman of the National Convention and all the the National Convention and all the rest of it. And that doesn't begin to tackle all the other things that to tackle all the other things that my noble friend has done. I mean, he was a member of Parliament. We were we were celebrating what he'd done in the House of Lords.
He was a member of Parliament. Well, leaving aside politics, he was a hugely successful businessman with a 40 year career in the private equity business and also not only as an entrepreneur. My God, we need those these days, but also as a regulator, putting his own skills and knowledge at the service of others. And on top of that had a family and three children. It's amazing, frankly. What my noble friend. I'm still in awe to it and we will greatly, greatly miss his presence.
I can tell him that firmly. He's pointing at you, my noble palace and his wife. His wife. So I am eternally grateful to my friend for all that he's done. And as this particular report, let me say that in favour of a authority looking at population, it is there are a number of reasons why we should adopt this authority. The first of all, it's a huge issue. Population migrants are a huge issue alongside the National Health Service, and the economy is one of the top three issues.
And Baroness spoke with heartfelt feeling on this subject. It does fire up people, I'm absolutely certain. Secondly, we are a small island. When American soldiers were told to come over here in the Second World War and were when they were briefed and they told England, think North Carolina were the same size as North Carolina. They have a 10 million population. We have nearly 70. That's the comparison that we make. We are a small island. We have to be careful about the number of people we allow here.
People want it. People do want a control on population. Lord Empey made the point and on migration they do want this. And the report makes it clear it is not an expensive policy. The government should be looking for less expensive policies. Given their fiscal problems. It would not be an expensive policy to set up. Other countries are doing it. Other countries Canada, Australia, Norway, Denmark are doing precisely what he's asking for. It would reduce toxicity. And noble Prelate spoke about the need to reduce toxicity, toxicity.
This would do that. This rational, objective approach would do that. It's a responsibility to future generations. We always think we should leave the country in the same sort of situation as we found it. It also has vision and a plan. People are constantly saying about the present government where's the vision? Where's the plan? This is a plan and this has a vision. Also, as my noble friend said, if we don't do it, other extremist policies will take advantage.
And the noble Baroness should be particularly knowledgeable about this. Because when I look at Staffordshire, for example, where in the recent elections reform got 49 seats and we reduced, the Conservatives reduced to ten and the Labour Party was reduced to one. And if you look at electoral calculus, Stoke, which the noble Baroness was the MP for some time ago, are all thought to be likely to go reform the next general election on on present polling. So she has an understanding, I think, of what is at stake here.
And also, may I say, finally, the future of democracy is at stake here because if we can't plan long term autocratic societies like China will say we're better because we can plant plan long term. The democracies are far too short term to deliver sensible results. So I think for all those reasons, this sort of authority and sort of instrument for policy is desirable. My personal view is that the thing I fear most and hate most is the overcrowding of this country.
The effect and the shortage of housing and the need to put up more housing, and therefore the demolition of and destruction of the open countryside. I was born in 1939, in the little village of Grimsby, just outside present Preston, at the entrance to the Ribble Valley. You go up the M6, turn off at Pudding Pie Nook or the M55 if you prefer. Modern technology. And there you are in Grimsby. And during the war time it was all wonderful.
In fact, my father was away on war work. It's a wonderful place to be brought up because my little pebble bashed house terraced house was surrounded by fields and woods and streams and trees to climb. It was absolutely idyllic, wonderful. He was no obesity. There was rationing. So no obesity, no malnutrition. There was, I'm afraid to say, rather boring food in those days. A great deal of what the official report on the Second World War said was an epic of flatulence because appalling diet, which we have then the population of the UK was 40 million, not 70 million, 40 million.
And it's possible to have that sort of life now it's 70 millions. And my little village, the next village, is called Longridge. Now, as a result of what's happened over the last few years, the locals call the villages Grim Ridge, Grim and Longridge. Because the fields have disappeared between the two villages. It's now one village village with with executive houses everywhere. No fields, no no woods, no nothing except go for a long distance. Get in the car. It's ridiculous.
I'm reminded of Philip Larkin's marvellous poem. I don't know what House may be familiar with this. Going, going. And that will be England gone. The shadows, the meadows, the lanes, the guildhalls, the carved choirs. There will be books. It will linger on in galleries. But all that remains for us will be concrete and tireless. He wrote that in 1972. How much more visible it is today than it was in 1972. And that's been pointed out. It's going to get worse.
And the driver is immigration. I think of immigration rather like water. You know, your doctor will tell you the sensible thing to do, especially if you're my age, is have a bit of water every day you take keep taking the water. My GP keep taking the water. It's good for you. Well, if you binge on water, if you really binge on it, it really is bad for you and you become extremely ill. And the fact is, we've binged on immigration over the last 20 years instead of taking a sensible amount every day, which would be natural, which would naturally accommodate and be an adviser to the to the nation.
So that if you did slow down immigration, and I think I personally am in favour of doing that, because that would mean a slowdown in population growth, you probably would have an effect of of overall decline in population or at least stability in population. We need not fear that, as is pointed out in the report, the present situation of constantly getting economic growth, GDP, extra GDP by persistently more immigration is unsustainable. And other countries which do not have our levels of immigration have exceeded our economic performance.
For example, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea has a declining population, but its economic growth GDP per head in GDP per head is greater. Now the UK citizens of South Korea are greater than more affluent than people of our people in this country. Taiwan is even more affluent than people. UK and Japan is not far behind. So you can do this. You can do this with or without an economic penalty. In fact, it may be better in many ways economically.
Other people raise issues well. If we have less immigration, we'll have. What about all these elderly people who will look after them? Who will be the young population who look after them? Will read the section by Professor Harper who's an expert in this field. The fact is, we can raise the retirement age. Look at all of us. How many of us are there? Age of 65 are still working at least part time. You call this part time? The fact is all that could be done and is being done by other countries, quite apart from technology and so forth.
But all these issues need to be discussed in an open way, and the authority in the way it's constituted would enable us to do that. Now, I've been in these debates before with my noble friend, and we usually get the argument from the ministerial bench. I remember Lord Kennedy being sitting, I think, on this side when we were in power, and I can't remember who was the Minister of government Minister at the time, but they all said, oh, we can't do this.
Both, both major parties. Lord MP has a point in both major parties said, we can't do this, we should not do this. And the arguments were would be familiar to to members. First of all, we're doing it anyway. We're collecting all these figures anyway. Not true. I went to the Appg on Social Sciences the day before yesterday, and the Oxford Observatory of Migration Migration Observatory pointed out. The figures are not being collected in a serious way. Of course, departments are picking up figures here and there for their own purposes, but not in the holistic way that we need.
So that argument doesn't stand up. The other argument that is usually put forward by the Minister is we don't want another quango, we don't want another body. But as my noble friend Lord Hodgson pointing out, he proposes to change the Migration Advisory Committee into this body so there would not be another body but a replacement body for this one. And the third argument, which is usually put up on the least, I think, appetising or favourable, is that somehow got the whiff of eugenics about it.
This is about something rather unpleasant nonsense. It is not at all unpleasant. It's a simple common sense. So I do think that this is an eminently rational, straightforward, common sense proposal, and that we have responsibility, the responsibility to future generations to try and fight for it. And if I say one thing to my noble friend who's work in this area, as you can see, I warmly applaud is that we will not give it up. He may leave, but we will not give it up.
He's determined, man, and I am determined to, and many others are determined not just here in the Commons. It's a brilliant idea and all brilliant ideas like this are worth fighting for.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yes.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yes. My Lord sir, I also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, on the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, on securing this debate. He has been consistent and courageous in consistent and courageous in drawing public attention to the very serious consequences that will very serious consequences that will flow from continued immigration on anything like the present scale. His opening speech was masterly and of course I agree with it all. For
He was a member of Parliament. Well, leaving aside politics, he was a hugely successful businessman with a 40 year career in the private equity business and also not only as an entrepreneur. My God, we need those these days, but also as a regulator, putting his own skills and knowledge at the service of others. And on top of that had a family and three children. It's amazing, frankly. What my noble friend. I'm still in awe to it and we will greatly, greatly miss his presence.
I can tell him that firmly. He's pointing at you, my noble palace and his wife. His wife. So I am eternally grateful to my friend for all that he's done. And as this particular report, let me say that in favour of a authority looking at population, it is there are a number of reasons why we should adopt this authority. The first of all, it's a huge issue. Population migrants are a huge issue alongside the National Health Service, and the economy is one of the top three issues.
And Baroness spoke with heartfelt feeling on this subject. It does fire up people, I'm absolutely certain. Secondly, we are a small island. When American soldiers were told to come over here in the Second World War and were when they were briefed and they told England, think North Carolina were the same size as North Carolina. They have a 10 million population. We have nearly 70. That's the comparison that we make. We are a small island. We have to be careful about the number of people we allow here.
People want it. People do want a control on population. Lord Empey made the point and on migration they do want this. And the report makes it clear it is not an expensive policy. The government should be looking for less expensive policies. Given their fiscal problems. It would not be an expensive policy to set up. Other countries are doing it. Other countries Canada, Australia, Norway, Denmark are doing precisely what he's asking for. It would reduce toxicity. And noble Prelate spoke about the need to reduce toxicity, toxicity.
This would do that. This rational, objective approach would do that. It's a responsibility to future generations. We always think we should leave the country in the same sort of situation as we found it. It also has vision and a plan. People are constantly saying about the present government where's the vision? Where's the plan? This is a plan and this has a vision. Also, as my noble friend said, if we don't do it, other extremist policies will take advantage.
And the noble Baroness should be particularly knowledgeable about this. Because when I look at Staffordshire, for example, where in the recent elections reform got 49 seats and we reduced, the Conservatives reduced to ten and the Labour Party was reduced to one. And if you look at electoral calculus, Stoke, which the noble Baroness was the MP for some time ago, are all thought to be likely to go reform the next general election on on present polling. So she has an understanding, I think, of what is at stake here.
And also, may I say, finally, the future of democracy is at stake here because if we can't plan long term autocratic societies like China will say we're better because we can plant plan long term. The democracies are far too short term to deliver sensible results. So I think for all those reasons, this sort of authority and sort of instrument for policy is desirable. My personal view is that the thing I fear most and hate most is the overcrowding of this country.
The effect and the shortage of housing and the need to put up more housing, and therefore the demolition of and destruction of the open countryside. I was born in 1939, in the little village of Grimsby, just outside present Preston, at the entrance to the Ribble Valley. You go up the M6, turn off at Pudding Pie Nook or the M55 if you prefer. Modern technology. And there you are in Grimsby. And during the war time it was all wonderful.
In fact, my father was away on war work. It's a wonderful place to be brought up because my little pebble bashed house terraced house was surrounded by fields and woods and streams and trees to climb. It was absolutely idyllic, wonderful. He was no obesity. There was rationing. So no obesity, no malnutrition. There was, I'm afraid to say, rather boring food in those days. A great deal of what the official report on the Second World War said was an epic of flatulence because appalling diet, which we have then the population of the UK was 40 million, not 70 million, 40 million.
And it's possible to have that sort of life now it's 70 millions. And my little village, the next village, is called Longridge. Now, as a result of what's happened over the last few years, the locals call the villages Grim Ridge, Grim and Longridge. Because the fields have disappeared between the two villages. It's now one village village with with executive houses everywhere. No fields, no no woods, no nothing except go for a long distance. Get in the car. It's ridiculous.
I'm reminded of Philip Larkin's marvellous poem. I don't know what House may be familiar with this. Going, going. And that will be England gone. The shadows, the meadows, the lanes, the guildhalls, the carved choirs. There will be books. It will linger on in galleries. But all that remains for us will be concrete and tireless. He wrote that in 1972. How much more visible it is today than it was in 1972. And that's been pointed out. It's going to get worse.
And the driver is immigration. I think of immigration rather like water. You know, your doctor will tell you the sensible thing to do, especially if you're my age, is have a bit of water every day you take keep taking the water. My GP keep taking the water. It's good for you. Well, if you binge on water, if you really binge on it, it really is bad for you and you become extremely ill. And the fact is, we've binged on immigration over the last 20 years instead of taking a sensible amount every day, which would be natural, which would naturally accommodate and be an adviser to the to the nation.
So that if you did slow down immigration, and I think I personally am in favour of doing that, because that would mean a slowdown in population growth, you probably would have an effect of of overall decline in population or at least stability in population. We need not fear that, as is pointed out in the report, the present situation of constantly getting economic growth, GDP, extra GDP by persistently more immigration is unsustainable. And other countries which do not have our levels of immigration have exceeded our economic performance.
For example, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea has a declining population, but its economic growth GDP per head in GDP per head is greater. Now the UK citizens of South Korea are greater than more affluent than people of our people in this country. Taiwan is even more affluent than people. UK and Japan is not far behind. So you can do this. You can do this with or without an economic penalty. In fact, it may be better in many ways economically.
Other people raise issues well. If we have less immigration, we'll have. What about all these elderly people who will look after them? Who will be the young population who look after them? Will read the section by Professor Harper who's an expert in this field. The fact is, we can raise the retirement age. Look at all of us. How many of us are there? Age of 65 are still working at least part time. You call this part time? The fact is all that could be done and is being done by other countries, quite apart from technology and so forth.
But all these issues need to be discussed in an open way, and the authority in the way it's constituted would enable us to do that. Now, I've been in these debates before with my noble friend, and we usually get the argument from the ministerial bench. I remember Lord Kennedy being sitting, I think, on this side when we were in power, and I can't remember who was the Minister of government Minister at the time, but they all said, oh, we can't do this.
Both, both major parties. Lord MP has a point in both major parties said, we can't do this, we should not do this. And the arguments were would be familiar to to members. First of all, we're doing it anyway. We're collecting all these figures anyway. Not true. I went to the Appg on Social Sciences the day before yesterday, and the Oxford Observatory of Migration Migration Observatory pointed out. The figures are not being collected in a serious way. Of course, departments are picking up figures here and there for their own purposes, but not in the holistic way that we need.
So that argument doesn't stand up. The other argument that is usually put forward by the Minister is we don't want another quango, we don't want another body. But as my noble friend Lord Hodgson pointing out, he proposes to change the Migration Advisory Committee into this body so there would not be another body but a replacement body for this one. And the third argument, which is usually put up on the least, I think, appetising or favourable, is that somehow got the whiff of eugenics about it.
This is about something rather unpleasant nonsense. It is not at all unpleasant. It's a simple common sense. So I do think that this is an eminently rational, straightforward, common sense proposal, and that we have responsibility, the responsibility to future generations to try and fight for it. And if I say one thing to my noble friend who's work in this area, as you can see, I warmly applaud is that we will not give it up. He may leave, but we will not give it up.
He's determined, man, and I am determined to, and many others are determined not just here in the Commons. It's a brilliant idea and all brilliant ideas like this are worth fighting for.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yes.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yes. My Lord sir, I also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, on the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, on securing this debate. He has been consistent and courageous in consistent and courageous in drawing public attention to the very serious consequences that will very serious consequences that will flow from continued immigration on anything like the present scale. His opening speech was masterly and of course I agree with it all. For
15:19
Lord Green of Deddington (Crossbench)
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Lord Green of Deddington (Crossbench)
my part, I've been engaged in these matters for nearly 25 years. That matters for nearly 25 years. That was with Professor David Coleman of was with Professor David Coleman of Oxford University. Together we set up Migrationwatch in 2001 with a view to getting wider understanding of the challenges of large scale immigration. That work is now being immigration. That work is now being taken forward by our method. A retired British ambassador born in Cyprus. Today I'll focus just on three points.
First, the continued chaos in the asylum system has been and continues to be damaging to public confidence in the capability, even the integrity, of successive governments. Many members of the public simply don't understand how we have failed to deter or prevent the arrival of many, many thousands of asylum seekers. They're right. My Lords, the current legal framework for asylum has failed and it needs to be replaced. But that is a very complex matter and is for another day.
My second point is about the sheer scale of legal migration, which tends to get forgotten behind the much of the press that are talking about asylum. It is ridiculously high, as Lord Empress has described himself over the last four full calendar years. Net migration has totalled about 3 million, net migration 3 million in round numbers. We've been seeing levels of half 1,000,000 in 1 year, a million in the next year, a million in the next year, and half a million in the fourth of those years.
It's astonishing. It's only told you this five years ago, you would have dismissed it. Just not possible to achieve. And one wonders how the government of the time made such a mess of it. And as for the current calendar year, net migration looks like being about 200,000. But the reasons for that is they're not yet clear. My Lords, it's indisputable that the Conservative Party lost control of the numbers. So serious steps are now needed and soon to tackle this.
So far, little sign that the Labour government have understood just what is required. The Home Secretary has spoken. Well, let's see if she can get it actually put into action. Thirdly, and lastly, my Lords, let us be clear immigration cannot be allowed to continue at anything like the current levels. It now poses an existential threat to the UK. It is sowing the seeds of division and undermining the cohesion built up over centuries, and it is rapidly changing the nature of our society.
Indeed, it's hard to believe that this matter is not already recognised as a national crisis. These words from Matthew Syed are the Sunday Times sum sum it up. I think he wrote this. The utter failure to control our borders was not an expression of democracy, but its greatest modern betrayal. And it will reverberate decades into the future. That is someone of Pakistani origin, born in Britain. And he can see it and he will say it.
But there are not enough people. I think people see it, but there are not enough people saying it. My Lords, the effect of these developments depends on the assumptions being made about future net migration and about the birth rates of different communities. It will be fair to say that on reasonable assumptions, the white British population of England will become a minority in about 35 years time. This is based on not migration of less than 200,000 over the coming years.
Nobody actually knows obviously, how this is going to turn out, but this is surely clear. That serious action, serious consideration, serious study, serious moves have to be taken. Otherwise we will muddle our way into growing social difficulties. My Lords, the public have never been consulted about this and never been consulted about this very serious issue. But the writing is on the wall. It's high time that our leaders read it and took serious and consistent measures to get immigration sharply down and keep it down.
First, the continued chaos in the asylum system has been and continues to be damaging to public confidence in the capability, even the integrity, of successive governments. Many members of the public simply don't understand how we have failed to deter or prevent the arrival of many, many thousands of asylum seekers. They're right. My Lords, the current legal framework for asylum has failed and it needs to be replaced. But that is a very complex matter and is for another day.
My second point is about the sheer scale of legal migration, which tends to get forgotten behind the much of the press that are talking about asylum. It is ridiculously high, as Lord Empress has described himself over the last four full calendar years. Net migration has totalled about 3 million, net migration 3 million in round numbers. We've been seeing levels of half 1,000,000 in 1 year, a million in the next year, a million in the next year, and half a million in the fourth of those years.
It's astonishing. It's only told you this five years ago, you would have dismissed it. Just not possible to achieve. And one wonders how the government of the time made such a mess of it. And as for the current calendar year, net migration looks like being about 200,000. But the reasons for that is they're not yet clear. My Lords, it's indisputable that the Conservative Party lost control of the numbers. So serious steps are now needed and soon to tackle this.
So far, little sign that the Labour government have understood just what is required. The Home Secretary has spoken. Well, let's see if she can get it actually put into action. Thirdly, and lastly, my Lords, let us be clear immigration cannot be allowed to continue at anything like the current levels. It now poses an existential threat to the UK. It is sowing the seeds of division and undermining the cohesion built up over centuries, and it is rapidly changing the nature of our society.
Indeed, it's hard to believe that this matter is not already recognised as a national crisis. These words from Matthew Syed are the Sunday Times sum sum it up. I think he wrote this. The utter failure to control our borders was not an expression of democracy, but its greatest modern betrayal. And it will reverberate decades into the future. That is someone of Pakistani origin, born in Britain. And he can see it and he will say it.
But there are not enough people. I think people see it, but there are not enough people saying it. My Lords, the effect of these developments depends on the assumptions being made about future net migration and about the birth rates of different communities. It will be fair to say that on reasonable assumptions, the white British population of England will become a minority in about 35 years time. This is based on not migration of less than 200,000 over the coming years.
Nobody actually knows obviously, how this is going to turn out, but this is surely clear. That serious action, serious consideration, serious study, serious moves have to be taken. Otherwise we will muddle our way into growing social difficulties. My Lords, the public have never been consulted about this and never been consulted about this very serious issue. But the writing is on the wall. It's high time that our leaders read it and took serious and consistent measures to get immigration sharply down and keep it down.
15:24
Baroness Verma (Conservative)
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Baroness Verma (Conservative)
Oh my Lords, it is good to be following Lord Green of Deddington because I want to actually pick up because I want to actually pick up on some of the the noble Lords words. But first of all, I'd like to thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson for this really important, timely debate. And the report which I've read and found that it would be a really good toolkit for all politicians to be able to use if they are going to, in seriousness, take the issue of immigration, migration, integration and social cohesion seriously.
My noble friend. My noble friend started the debate in a very thoughtful way, and every single noble Lord that has contributed has tried to contribute to show and highlight some of the issues that we've all failed to actually discuss and debate properly. I am an immigrant. I came to this country as a nine month old baby with immigrant parents from India, but my grandfather was here in 1938. We see ourselves as a family that have actually socially integrated, properly taken on the values and the and the good things that this country has enabled families like mine to be able to do.
And I think for far too long, and I am slightly disappointed with the Labour benches for not having more speakers. And I know Lord Brook wanted to speak. Was slightly caught out on time, but this this debate should be about all of us being incredibly concerned about the state of what is happening in our country, and how I come from Leicester. And the right reverend Prelate is the Bishop of Leicester. He will be witnessing on a daily basis, like I do, the discord that is happening amongst communities because communities are now becoming very inward looking and less integrating with each other.
And Leicester is one of the most mixed communities in this country. So I think I come from a place where, following on from the noble Lord, Lord green, I feel that every time people like me or he tried to raise the debate around these subjects, we were shot down as being racists, as being irresponsible, and as being those that actually start the discord of, of of harm for each other's communities. And I remember when we were debating the photo ID for elections debate in this chamber, the Liberal benches reminded me of of, well, the Bame community, the ethnic minority communities will feel that they cannot be part of the voting system.
Now, is these sort of assumptions about wider communities that have not been born here or have been born here, but from immigrant backgrounds, find offensive. We, by and large, are integrated and want to integrate, but we have focused far too long on those communities that have decided to stay outside of the mainstream of this country. And we have pandered to socially excluding, allowing them to socially exclude themselves and not sign up to the values that they and therefore the previous generations had come to this country for.
And that was for liberal opportunities to be able to be yourself, to be able to thrive, to be able to grow and not be restricted by your caste or or where you came from in your the countries of origin. So it's a really serious debate for me. I get very, very irritated when we cannot have a debate, an honest debate about something that worries and I say worries. Most of the population, including the people that my family belong to, my children are absolutely worried sick about the state of the debate in this country today.
I grew up in the times in the 60s and 70s when this toxic debate was happening then, and it was difficult as a child to be able to walk out and be racially abused on a daily basis because it was okay to be done. We have moved quite a long way in the right direction of people accepting that there is a cultural mix in this country, but it was a mix where everybody tried to be part of the wider community, where my mother, like Lord, my noble friend Lord Horam, born 1939, came to this country as a 20 year old and as a 20 year old, she wanted to be part of the wider community, and I have said it many times.
She learned English. Now I've heard it mentioned on a number of occasions today, the new immigrants not being able to speak English. Let me tell you, there are people here from 2030 years who have not learned to speak English there. There. Women are not allowed to go out beyond their square miles because they want control of their communities. I have adult social care business, which I will highlight is in the in the register of interests. We come across families where the children born, in particular communities, and they're not restricted to one faith.
By the way, do not meet any child of any other community. They go and they are home schooled. They go to the chemist that is of their community. The grocery shop is of their community. How are we going to get integration if we actually allow this to happen in our communities and cities here? And I think for far too long, what's happened in Rotherham and across the country is because we have been complicit in staying silent, whether it's the institutions of the the public sector, the police, the social work, we have been complicit because when it's ever been raised, it was raised well.
You're a racist and I'm afraid the two major parties then backed back, and it was at the detriment of the wider community. Now, I've been in politics. I was 11 years old when I went on my 1st March against Racism, because it's difficult to be a little kid and have names thrown at you every single day. So I went on marches because I wanted to show alongside white people who stood by me that we cannot tolerate racism, but that does not mean we accept that other communities can come along and force feed and not integrate into our community here.
My mother actually, I spoke to my mother before I came to this debate. I said, mum, I'm going to this place. She said, tell them, I'm going to tell you. Tell them this. You come to this country, you accept everything and you enrich it by things that can be made better. Now my mum is a force, for she's a force. But the one thing my mother taught me was that we should never, ever give in to a small number of people with large voices.
They are loud voices, but they don't account for the majority of this country. Somebody asked me the other day, do you think Britain's becoming more racist? And I said, no. I said, what's happened is this those voices of a smaller number of people have just got louder, and the large majority have just become quiet. And I think we need to respond to that properly. And I stand here and I say to all of my colleagues and all of those people across the other benches over there, we cannot give vacuum because if we give vacuum, bad things happen.
And sadly, for far too long, we've allowed that vacuum to get bigger and bigger. And I will finally say to all those communities who will definitely read this and then send me abusive messages, any community that comes to this country has to accept the norms, the values and the traditions of this country. And if you don't like it, then please find somewhere else to go because you are creating disharmony. For those of us who have got nowhere else we want to go.
This is our country. We love it to pieces. The flag belongs to me as much as it belongs to you. And I will fight to the core like my grandfather did for the British Army. We will fight to the core to protect this land. But we will not allow negativity around all of our communities to be taken up by a small group of people. Apologies for my gravelly voice. I'm getting a cold and I don't want to give it to my noble friend on the front bench.
So I'm now going to end by saying one thing, and I'm going to point it to the Labour benches. When you lifted the two cup child cap for for Universal Credit, what you've managed to do is to say large families have to take little responsibility. I will say to you and as, as, as somebody who genuinely worries, I come from a community where we see education as important to lift us out, to be socially mobile upwards. A lot of Indian families came to this country with £3 in their pockets and have been very successful because the education system here allowed them to be.
So please, please think very carefully when you do legislation that pushes people backwards rather than forwards.
My noble friend. My noble friend started the debate in a very thoughtful way, and every single noble Lord that has contributed has tried to contribute to show and highlight some of the issues that we've all failed to actually discuss and debate properly. I am an immigrant. I came to this country as a nine month old baby with immigrant parents from India, but my grandfather was here in 1938. We see ourselves as a family that have actually socially integrated, properly taken on the values and the and the good things that this country has enabled families like mine to be able to do.
And I think for far too long, and I am slightly disappointed with the Labour benches for not having more speakers. And I know Lord Brook wanted to speak. Was slightly caught out on time, but this this debate should be about all of us being incredibly concerned about the state of what is happening in our country, and how I come from Leicester. And the right reverend Prelate is the Bishop of Leicester. He will be witnessing on a daily basis, like I do, the discord that is happening amongst communities because communities are now becoming very inward looking and less integrating with each other.
And Leicester is one of the most mixed communities in this country. So I think I come from a place where, following on from the noble Lord, Lord green, I feel that every time people like me or he tried to raise the debate around these subjects, we were shot down as being racists, as being irresponsible, and as being those that actually start the discord of, of of harm for each other's communities. And I remember when we were debating the photo ID for elections debate in this chamber, the Liberal benches reminded me of of, well, the Bame community, the ethnic minority communities will feel that they cannot be part of the voting system.
Now, is these sort of assumptions about wider communities that have not been born here or have been born here, but from immigrant backgrounds, find offensive. We, by and large, are integrated and want to integrate, but we have focused far too long on those communities that have decided to stay outside of the mainstream of this country. And we have pandered to socially excluding, allowing them to socially exclude themselves and not sign up to the values that they and therefore the previous generations had come to this country for.
And that was for liberal opportunities to be able to be yourself, to be able to thrive, to be able to grow and not be restricted by your caste or or where you came from in your the countries of origin. So it's a really serious debate for me. I get very, very irritated when we cannot have a debate, an honest debate about something that worries and I say worries. Most of the population, including the people that my family belong to, my children are absolutely worried sick about the state of the debate in this country today.
I grew up in the times in the 60s and 70s when this toxic debate was happening then, and it was difficult as a child to be able to walk out and be racially abused on a daily basis because it was okay to be done. We have moved quite a long way in the right direction of people accepting that there is a cultural mix in this country, but it was a mix where everybody tried to be part of the wider community, where my mother, like Lord, my noble friend Lord Horam, born 1939, came to this country as a 20 year old and as a 20 year old, she wanted to be part of the wider community, and I have said it many times.
She learned English. Now I've heard it mentioned on a number of occasions today, the new immigrants not being able to speak English. Let me tell you, there are people here from 2030 years who have not learned to speak English there. There. Women are not allowed to go out beyond their square miles because they want control of their communities. I have adult social care business, which I will highlight is in the in the register of interests. We come across families where the children born, in particular communities, and they're not restricted to one faith.
By the way, do not meet any child of any other community. They go and they are home schooled. They go to the chemist that is of their community. The grocery shop is of their community. How are we going to get integration if we actually allow this to happen in our communities and cities here? And I think for far too long, what's happened in Rotherham and across the country is because we have been complicit in staying silent, whether it's the institutions of the the public sector, the police, the social work, we have been complicit because when it's ever been raised, it was raised well.
You're a racist and I'm afraid the two major parties then backed back, and it was at the detriment of the wider community. Now, I've been in politics. I was 11 years old when I went on my 1st March against Racism, because it's difficult to be a little kid and have names thrown at you every single day. So I went on marches because I wanted to show alongside white people who stood by me that we cannot tolerate racism, but that does not mean we accept that other communities can come along and force feed and not integrate into our community here.
My mother actually, I spoke to my mother before I came to this debate. I said, mum, I'm going to this place. She said, tell them, I'm going to tell you. Tell them this. You come to this country, you accept everything and you enrich it by things that can be made better. Now my mum is a force, for she's a force. But the one thing my mother taught me was that we should never, ever give in to a small number of people with large voices.
They are loud voices, but they don't account for the majority of this country. Somebody asked me the other day, do you think Britain's becoming more racist? And I said, no. I said, what's happened is this those voices of a smaller number of people have just got louder, and the large majority have just become quiet. And I think we need to respond to that properly. And I stand here and I say to all of my colleagues and all of those people across the other benches over there, we cannot give vacuum because if we give vacuum, bad things happen.
And sadly, for far too long, we've allowed that vacuum to get bigger and bigger. And I will finally say to all those communities who will definitely read this and then send me abusive messages, any community that comes to this country has to accept the norms, the values and the traditions of this country. And if you don't like it, then please find somewhere else to go because you are creating disharmony. For those of us who have got nowhere else we want to go.
This is our country. We love it to pieces. The flag belongs to me as much as it belongs to you. And I will fight to the core like my grandfather did for the British Army. We will fight to the core to protect this land. But we will not allow negativity around all of our communities to be taken up by a small group of people. Apologies for my gravelly voice. I'm getting a cold and I don't want to give it to my noble friend on the front bench.
So I'm now going to end by saying one thing, and I'm going to point it to the Labour benches. When you lifted the two cup child cap for for Universal Credit, what you've managed to do is to say large families have to take little responsibility. I will say to you and as, as, as somebody who genuinely worries, I come from a community where we see education as important to lift us out, to be socially mobile upwards. A lot of Indian families came to this country with £3 in their pockets and have been very successful because the education system here allowed them to be.
So please, please think very carefully when you do legislation that pushes people backwards rather than forwards.
15:34
Lord Frost (Non-affiliated)
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Lord Frost (Non-affiliated)
Yeah. I'm sorry. >> Yeah. I'm sorry. >> My Lords, may I begin by declaring my interest, if perhaps a rather general one, as the incoming director general of the Institute of Economic Affairs, which has an interest in these and many other interest in these and many other questions. My Lords, it's a pleasure to take part in this debate and a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Burma, for a very powerful speech, if I may say so, that I think compelled attention.
It is also a particular pleasure, of course, as many other noble Lords have said, to be able to support the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, today, and to pay tribute to all his work over many, many years. And the report on population which we are debating today is, I think, entirely characteristic of the serious evidence based examination of issues which he's always brought to bear and I think is particularly needed on this particular subject, for there is, without question, a real problem.
The numbers are striking. We've heard them already today, so I won't go into the detail. But as the report notes, over the last 20 years, the UK population has risen by nearly 10 million people. A third of that increase has arrived in the last four years or so. And another who knows how many five, six, 7 million may arrive over the next decade or so. Now, population growth on this scale concentrated on an already densely packed island, and particularly in the south east of England, which is now one of the most densely populated areas in the whole world.
Apart from island states, and a point that is repeatedly underlined in Lord Hodgson's report. This obviously poses challenges for housing, infrastructure, public services, social cohesion and so on. And as we've heard, the implications of all of this are simply not taken into account systematically in government planning. And indeed, the debate on the subject is too often stigmatised, as if expressing doubts about whether rapid population growth is desirable or possible to accommodate marks one out as beyond the pale.
And one of the important things about today's debate, I think, is that it is a way of beginning to break some of those taboos about very important issues, and it's very necessary because consistently, polling shows that the public feel that the population is growing too fast and that immigration has been too high. They know that something is amiss. Now, my Lords, we've we've discussed those issues already at some length today. There's one particular aspect that I want to to focus on today, which has been mentioned, but perhaps not covered in detail.
And that is the question of fertility and the birth rate, the number of children that we have in this country. And that's really where I want to focus my remarks. Just reviewing the facts briefly. All Western countries, with the exception of Israel, have seen significant declines in fertility rates, and the UK has current fertility rate of about 1.4 children per woman is the lowest it has ever been. 30 years ago, all of our population growth was much slower then, of course, but 30 years ago, all all of our population growth pretty well came from births, from natural increase.
15 years ago it was 5050. Now births and deaths are roughly equal and all of our population growth is coming through migration. And this is historically unprecedented, or at least since the fifth century AD. Now, why has this decline in fertility happened? Some of this is obvious. Social changes are real and well documented. Women have more choices. Education and careers rightly come first. Marriage is delayed. But these changes have been in progress for many years now. They surely account for the fall in the birth rate over the 1960s and the 1970s.
But since then, between about 1980 and 2015, the fertility rates, the number of children per woman has bumped along at around 1.80 replacement rates, but not so far from it. But since 2015, fertility has fallen precipitously again to around 1.4. As I said now, it's tempting to attribute this, and it often is attributed to particularly British factors such as high housing costs, which are, of course, themselves driven by immigration, at least in part, or to attack a system that is compared to much of continental Europe, remarkably unfriendly to families.
But in truth, that isn't quite good enough, and a similar trend is visible across most European countries is more or less strong from country to country. The starting points are different, but the trend is still quite clearly visible. Now why is this happening? The only honest answer to give, I think, is that we don't really know why it's happening. One can, of course, speculate the slow to zero growth in incomes across Europe since the financial crash is no doubt part of it.
There is perhaps a growth in cultural disapproval. I don't know, I feel it's a little rarely stated openly, but certainly present of those who choose to have large families, could it be the growth in social media since around 2015, the boom in dating apps, the growth in, shall we say, novel conceptions of sex and the family have had some effect on all of this, my Lords, unpopular though it may be to say it, but I'll say it anyway.
The increasing recourse to abortion now at its highest ever level in this country, a quarter of a million abortions in 2022, not far off now, half the number of live births clearly has an impact on the figures. Or could there be something more intangible and more profound, some sort of loss of confidence in the future? More broadly, some say this is about climate catastrophes. Others see it as a decline in confidence of the values of Western civilization. Who knows? Whatever it may be, when people don't believe the future will be better than the present, they tend not to have children.
And the fact that Israel, a country with strong civilizational self-confidence, amongst many other things, has more or less avoided. This trend suggests there is at least something in this this view, however, we don't really know. And that's part of the problem because it makes it particularly difficult to to deal with. But the fact that we don't know isn't a reason not to talk about it. We have to deal with the consequences because they exist whether we like them or not.
We have to try and find some way of mitigating them if we can't change them. So what can we do? Well, I identify, and here I'm echoing work by other demographers, notably Doctor Paul Morland. There are three possible solutions to this predicament. The first is to try and have more children increase the fertility rate back towards replacement. As I say, so far only Israel has really achieved this amongst developed nations and other countries that have tried it in various ways, extra public support or whatever.
The French, the Hungarians have had only a very limited effect. And this suggests to me that although there is an economic aspect to this problem, it isn't really the whole of the problem. The second approach is to give up on trying to change demographics and simply adjust to an ageing society, accept lower fertility in a shrinking workforce, but invest heavily in productivity, automation, reform of the labour market and pensions to accommodate this older population with fewer children. Now that's the solution set out by Professor Sefton in.
In the noble Lord Hodgson's report, Japan is the obvious case study. Here. The basic difficulty, though, is that to increase productivity in this way, we need in this country and across Europe, to embark on a campaign of liberalisation and reform of the economy for which no political party really seems to have the appetite, and which perhaps ageing societies are particularly reluctant to to contemplate. Now, the third approach is the one that we have actually chosen over the last 30 years, along with most developed countries, that is, bring in a replacement population in port workers and their families to maintain the worker to dependent ratio supply the labour that the native population cannot.
Now the problem with that option, whatever its appeal, and it's of distinctly limited appeal to me at least, is not actually a solution at all for two reasons. First of all, the economic case for mass migration is weaker than is often claimed. The work of Doctor David Miles and others, again is cited in the report shows that mass migration does not boost per capita growth. It may produce a growth in the absolute size of the economy, but not per capita. And of course, there are lots and lots of social and other consequences that we have discussed.
Second, a more fundamentally, mass migration is simply a way of deferring the problem. If you try and hold the dependency ratio constant through immigration, that is, at about its current 3 to 1, to ensure that always enough working age people to support people in retirement, simple maths shows you end up needing inflows of half a million to three quarters of a million people every year in perpetuity. Pretty well now by 2050, on that trajectory, a third of the British population would be born overseas.
I personally do not particularly welcome that prospect. I do not think it's a sustainable policy for us, and it may, in any case, not be a solution that's available to us because of the growing skepticism about mass migration. That, again, has been touched on in our debate today. So I think we have to exclude that option. The option of importing a replacement population, the option that is before us is to bring immigration down close to zero for a prolonged period. If we choose to resume it later on a more.
Selective choosier basis, then we can. But it does, of course leave us with a problem. What can we do to solve it? First of all, try and increase the birth rate that involves boosting economic growth, building more houses, reforming taxation, doing what we can to change and reinforce the civic and cultural messages that are around us. But as I say, we should not count on that. We can't count on that actually working. The second is the Japan solution do what we can to create a more productive workforce if we can't create a bigger one.
And luckily, the solutions there are largely the same more growth, more reform, more incentives to boost incomes. However challenging that all looks. And I think the third thing is to pick up is a bureaucratic one, if you like, is to pick up the recommendation in the noble Lord Hodgson's report for an independent advisory body on demographic strategy, providing us with honest, evidence based advice about the trade offs and the numbers. And I would add to that, I think this body should be explicitly tasked with studying trends in the birth rate and fertility.
It should be tasked with looking whether measures taken in any other countries across the world have made any difference to this and why, and more broadly, what the experience of other nations tells us about managing demographic change. And finally, my Lords, as I said, we need to break the taboo on discussing these things. I remember the scorn that was poured upon politicians who my friends on this, sharing my political opinions, people like former MP Miriam Cates or the current one, Danny Kruger.
When they sought to raise these questions 2 or 3 years ago, they persisted. Credit to them. And now, slowly, the birth rate is becoming part of the debate. We can't avoid it. It's very welcome, honest, open, evidence based discussion of the interaction between fertility and migration. The economic and social effects of all this is vital if we're going to restore public trust in our institutions ability to solve these difficult questions. And the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson's report is a vital contribution to that conversation, and I hope it marks the beginning, not the end, of a more serious engagement with one of the defining challenges of our time.
My Lords.
It is also a particular pleasure, of course, as many other noble Lords have said, to be able to support the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, today, and to pay tribute to all his work over many, many years. And the report on population which we are debating today is, I think, entirely characteristic of the serious evidence based examination of issues which he's always brought to bear and I think is particularly needed on this particular subject, for there is, without question, a real problem.
The numbers are striking. We've heard them already today, so I won't go into the detail. But as the report notes, over the last 20 years, the UK population has risen by nearly 10 million people. A third of that increase has arrived in the last four years or so. And another who knows how many five, six, 7 million may arrive over the next decade or so. Now, population growth on this scale concentrated on an already densely packed island, and particularly in the south east of England, which is now one of the most densely populated areas in the whole world.
Apart from island states, and a point that is repeatedly underlined in Lord Hodgson's report. This obviously poses challenges for housing, infrastructure, public services, social cohesion and so on. And as we've heard, the implications of all of this are simply not taken into account systematically in government planning. And indeed, the debate on the subject is too often stigmatised, as if expressing doubts about whether rapid population growth is desirable or possible to accommodate marks one out as beyond the pale.
And one of the important things about today's debate, I think, is that it is a way of beginning to break some of those taboos about very important issues, and it's very necessary because consistently, polling shows that the public feel that the population is growing too fast and that immigration has been too high. They know that something is amiss. Now, my Lords, we've we've discussed those issues already at some length today. There's one particular aspect that I want to to focus on today, which has been mentioned, but perhaps not covered in detail.
And that is the question of fertility and the birth rate, the number of children that we have in this country. And that's really where I want to focus my remarks. Just reviewing the facts briefly. All Western countries, with the exception of Israel, have seen significant declines in fertility rates, and the UK has current fertility rate of about 1.4 children per woman is the lowest it has ever been. 30 years ago, all of our population growth was much slower then, of course, but 30 years ago, all all of our population growth pretty well came from births, from natural increase.
15 years ago it was 5050. Now births and deaths are roughly equal and all of our population growth is coming through migration. And this is historically unprecedented, or at least since the fifth century AD. Now, why has this decline in fertility happened? Some of this is obvious. Social changes are real and well documented. Women have more choices. Education and careers rightly come first. Marriage is delayed. But these changes have been in progress for many years now. They surely account for the fall in the birth rate over the 1960s and the 1970s.
But since then, between about 1980 and 2015, the fertility rates, the number of children per woman has bumped along at around 1.80 replacement rates, but not so far from it. But since 2015, fertility has fallen precipitously again to around 1.4. As I said now, it's tempting to attribute this, and it often is attributed to particularly British factors such as high housing costs, which are, of course, themselves driven by immigration, at least in part, or to attack a system that is compared to much of continental Europe, remarkably unfriendly to families.
But in truth, that isn't quite good enough, and a similar trend is visible across most European countries is more or less strong from country to country. The starting points are different, but the trend is still quite clearly visible. Now why is this happening? The only honest answer to give, I think, is that we don't really know why it's happening. One can, of course, speculate the slow to zero growth in incomes across Europe since the financial crash is no doubt part of it.
There is perhaps a growth in cultural disapproval. I don't know, I feel it's a little rarely stated openly, but certainly present of those who choose to have large families, could it be the growth in social media since around 2015, the boom in dating apps, the growth in, shall we say, novel conceptions of sex and the family have had some effect on all of this, my Lords, unpopular though it may be to say it, but I'll say it anyway.
The increasing recourse to abortion now at its highest ever level in this country, a quarter of a million abortions in 2022, not far off now, half the number of live births clearly has an impact on the figures. Or could there be something more intangible and more profound, some sort of loss of confidence in the future? More broadly, some say this is about climate catastrophes. Others see it as a decline in confidence of the values of Western civilization. Who knows? Whatever it may be, when people don't believe the future will be better than the present, they tend not to have children.
And the fact that Israel, a country with strong civilizational self-confidence, amongst many other things, has more or less avoided. This trend suggests there is at least something in this this view, however, we don't really know. And that's part of the problem because it makes it particularly difficult to to deal with. But the fact that we don't know isn't a reason not to talk about it. We have to deal with the consequences because they exist whether we like them or not.
We have to try and find some way of mitigating them if we can't change them. So what can we do? Well, I identify, and here I'm echoing work by other demographers, notably Doctor Paul Morland. There are three possible solutions to this predicament. The first is to try and have more children increase the fertility rate back towards replacement. As I say, so far only Israel has really achieved this amongst developed nations and other countries that have tried it in various ways, extra public support or whatever.
The French, the Hungarians have had only a very limited effect. And this suggests to me that although there is an economic aspect to this problem, it isn't really the whole of the problem. The second approach is to give up on trying to change demographics and simply adjust to an ageing society, accept lower fertility in a shrinking workforce, but invest heavily in productivity, automation, reform of the labour market and pensions to accommodate this older population with fewer children. Now that's the solution set out by Professor Sefton in.
In the noble Lord Hodgson's report, Japan is the obvious case study. Here. The basic difficulty, though, is that to increase productivity in this way, we need in this country and across Europe, to embark on a campaign of liberalisation and reform of the economy for which no political party really seems to have the appetite, and which perhaps ageing societies are particularly reluctant to to contemplate. Now, the third approach is the one that we have actually chosen over the last 30 years, along with most developed countries, that is, bring in a replacement population in port workers and their families to maintain the worker to dependent ratio supply the labour that the native population cannot.
Now the problem with that option, whatever its appeal, and it's of distinctly limited appeal to me at least, is not actually a solution at all for two reasons. First of all, the economic case for mass migration is weaker than is often claimed. The work of Doctor David Miles and others, again is cited in the report shows that mass migration does not boost per capita growth. It may produce a growth in the absolute size of the economy, but not per capita. And of course, there are lots and lots of social and other consequences that we have discussed.
Second, a more fundamentally, mass migration is simply a way of deferring the problem. If you try and hold the dependency ratio constant through immigration, that is, at about its current 3 to 1, to ensure that always enough working age people to support people in retirement, simple maths shows you end up needing inflows of half a million to three quarters of a million people every year in perpetuity. Pretty well now by 2050, on that trajectory, a third of the British population would be born overseas.
I personally do not particularly welcome that prospect. I do not think it's a sustainable policy for us, and it may, in any case, not be a solution that's available to us because of the growing skepticism about mass migration. That, again, has been touched on in our debate today. So I think we have to exclude that option. The option of importing a replacement population, the option that is before us is to bring immigration down close to zero for a prolonged period. If we choose to resume it later on a more.
Selective choosier basis, then we can. But it does, of course leave us with a problem. What can we do to solve it? First of all, try and increase the birth rate that involves boosting economic growth, building more houses, reforming taxation, doing what we can to change and reinforce the civic and cultural messages that are around us. But as I say, we should not count on that. We can't count on that actually working. The second is the Japan solution do what we can to create a more productive workforce if we can't create a bigger one.
And luckily, the solutions there are largely the same more growth, more reform, more incentives to boost incomes. However challenging that all looks. And I think the third thing is to pick up is a bureaucratic one, if you like, is to pick up the recommendation in the noble Lord Hodgson's report for an independent advisory body on demographic strategy, providing us with honest, evidence based advice about the trade offs and the numbers. And I would add to that, I think this body should be explicitly tasked with studying trends in the birth rate and fertility.
It should be tasked with looking whether measures taken in any other countries across the world have made any difference to this and why, and more broadly, what the experience of other nations tells us about managing demographic change. And finally, my Lords, as I said, we need to break the taboo on discussing these things. I remember the scorn that was poured upon politicians who my friends on this, sharing my political opinions, people like former MP Miriam Cates or the current one, Danny Kruger.
When they sought to raise these questions 2 or 3 years ago, they persisted. Credit to them. And now, slowly, the birth rate is becoming part of the debate. We can't avoid it. It's very welcome, honest, open, evidence based discussion of the interaction between fertility and migration. The economic and social effects of all this is vital if we're going to restore public trust in our institutions ability to solve these difficult questions. And the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson's report is a vital contribution to that conversation, and I hope it marks the beginning, not the end, of a more serious engagement with one of the defining challenges of our time.
My Lords.
15:48
Lord Sarfraz (Conservative)
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Lord Sarfraz (Conservative)
I to congratulate my noble >> I to congratulate my noble friend for this report, for the debate, and for a lifetime of debate, and for a lifetime of public service. Now, the report makes absolutely clear that we will makes absolutely clear that we will continue to need high quality, highly skilled individuals above all, who can contribute directly to economic growth. But now, every country in the world is aggressively competing for that same group of global talent. Some are doing so with golden visas, others with citizenship by investment.
And today we just heard about the launch of the trump card in the US. Yet contributing to Britain's economy no longer requires you to actually be physically present in this country. In fact, many highly productive people could easily live somewhere else while still contributing in meaningful ways to our economy. My Lords, the government should therefore perhaps consider establishing a British digital residency programme. A digital resident would not need to come to the UK physically, but could incorporate a British company, open a British bank account, benefit from British commercial courts, bid on British contracts, hire local professional service providers, transact in pounds and pay tax on UK based income without placing any strain whatsoever on our public services.
Now this is not a silver bullet for immigration policy, but it does allow us to think differently about immigration. Other nations have experimented with digital residency, Estonia being the clearest example, and Estonian digital residents have built some amazing companies without ever stepping foot in Estonia. But the UK could offer a far more powerful, globally attractive version, and the highest performing digital residents could even be offered pathways to physical residency. Along this, my Lords, we should recognise the value of short term digital nomads.
Many countries now offer one year visas that allow people to live and work temporarily without being eligible for any public services, and and these countries are attracting talent and entrepreneurships. Now, my Lords, we don't offer this visa category at all and we're leaving this opportunity on the table. Whereas Portugal, Spain and Germany are embracing it. Finally, my Lords, as robotics accelerates, it is absolutely true and a very good thing that we will see robots deployed at scale in industries across the country, including in agriculture and in manufacturing.
Now, sooner or later, harvesting robots will be picking strawberries in Kent and they will be making cars in West Midlands. And we're witnessing a wave of inward investment into manufacturing across Europe and the US, much of which is possible only because factories are now highly automated. This shows robotics doesn't kill manufacturing, it saves it, and it attracts global capital even in high wage countries. And my Lords, I would urge noble Lords not to be suspicious of robots. Robots are nice.
They do not require GP appointments. They don't need housing, they don't need visas for dependants. And so far they haven't willingly committed any crimes yet. They will unquestionably create local jobs, local industries and new opportunities for British entrepreneurs. Maintaining these machines, operating them, renting them out all components of hyper local economic growth. My Lords, this report is called Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow. In doing so, we must recognise that tomorrow's economic contribution will come in new and exciting forms some human, some digital and some robotic.
And in thinking about
**** Possible New Speaker ****
tomorrow, we must be ready for what is inevitably coming. Thank you. Very good.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. Very good. My Lords. So that with apologies for not putting down my name for not putting down my name earlier, I would like to make a small contribution in the gap. My small contribution in the gap. My Lords, I have two reasons for wanting to make this contribution. wanting to make this contribution. Firstly, I wanted to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson in this his valedictory debate. We all are. We all are sad at the departure from this house of the noble Lord Hodgson.
But we do have the benefit. As Baroness Buscombe pointed out of of him kindly leaving behind his wife. And we will therefore continue to have the benefit of Baroness Hodgson of Abinger. My Lords, my second reason for wanting to take part in this debate was in my maiden speech in this House when I was a very young man, a 53 years ago, I debated and I read the subject of the bid, the need for a UK population policy that was the subject of that debate.
My Lords, I have to say that the impact of that debate, despite my speech, has been negligible. And we have the evidence of that in the forward of this excellent report in
And today we just heard about the launch of the trump card in the US. Yet contributing to Britain's economy no longer requires you to actually be physically present in this country. In fact, many highly productive people could easily live somewhere else while still contributing in meaningful ways to our economy. My Lords, the government should therefore perhaps consider establishing a British digital residency programme. A digital resident would not need to come to the UK physically, but could incorporate a British company, open a British bank account, benefit from British commercial courts, bid on British contracts, hire local professional service providers, transact in pounds and pay tax on UK based income without placing any strain whatsoever on our public services.
Now this is not a silver bullet for immigration policy, but it does allow us to think differently about immigration. Other nations have experimented with digital residency, Estonia being the clearest example, and Estonian digital residents have built some amazing companies without ever stepping foot in Estonia. But the UK could offer a far more powerful, globally attractive version, and the highest performing digital residents could even be offered pathways to physical residency. Along this, my Lords, we should recognise the value of short term digital nomads.
Many countries now offer one year visas that allow people to live and work temporarily without being eligible for any public services, and and these countries are attracting talent and entrepreneurships. Now, my Lords, we don't offer this visa category at all and we're leaving this opportunity on the table. Whereas Portugal, Spain and Germany are embracing it. Finally, my Lords, as robotics accelerates, it is absolutely true and a very good thing that we will see robots deployed at scale in industries across the country, including in agriculture and in manufacturing.
Now, sooner or later, harvesting robots will be picking strawberries in Kent and they will be making cars in West Midlands. And we're witnessing a wave of inward investment into manufacturing across Europe and the US, much of which is possible only because factories are now highly automated. This shows robotics doesn't kill manufacturing, it saves it, and it attracts global capital even in high wage countries. And my Lords, I would urge noble Lords not to be suspicious of robots. Robots are nice.
They do not require GP appointments. They don't need housing, they don't need visas for dependants. And so far they haven't willingly committed any crimes yet. They will unquestionably create local jobs, local industries and new opportunities for British entrepreneurs. Maintaining these machines, operating them, renting them out all components of hyper local economic growth. My Lords, this report is called Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow. In doing so, we must recognise that tomorrow's economic contribution will come in new and exciting forms some human, some digital and some robotic.
And in thinking about
**** Possible New Speaker ****
tomorrow, we must be ready for what is inevitably coming. Thank you. Very good.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. Very good. My Lords. So that with apologies for not putting down my name for not putting down my name earlier, I would like to make a small contribution in the gap. My small contribution in the gap. My Lords, I have two reasons for wanting to make this contribution. wanting to make this contribution. Firstly, I wanted to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson in this his valedictory debate. We all are. We all are sad at the departure from this house of the noble Lord Hodgson.
But we do have the benefit. As Baroness Buscombe pointed out of of him kindly leaving behind his wife. And we will therefore continue to have the benefit of Baroness Hodgson of Abinger. My Lords, my second reason for wanting to take part in this debate was in my maiden speech in this House when I was a very young man, a 53 years ago, I debated and I read the subject of the bid, the need for a UK population policy that was the subject of that debate.
My Lords, I have to say that the impact of that debate, despite my speech, has been negligible. And we have the evidence of that in the forward of this excellent report in
15:54
Lord Hacking (Labour)
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Lord Hacking (Labour)
1971, the population of the United Kingdom was 55.9 million. But now there has been a rise of 9.2 there has been a rise of 9.2 million. My Lords, in that debate, the argument was put forward that the argument was put forward that responsible parents had no more than 2.5 children. That rather than 2.5 children. That rather puzzled me how responsible parents could produce a point five of a child, and it was then became a matter of personal embarrassment to me because of my wife then gave birth to our third child.
So I was point five irresponsible. According to the view in the debate, my Lord, that on this subject, on this very important subject, we must not sit on our hands. The rise in population causing strain on vital components in our society. The National Health Service, housing, demographic balance are all terribly, terribly threatening. And there has been too much social unrest, particularly arising out of immigration. And I can do no better. My Lords, in this brief intervention, and I hope the whips are noticing that I'm keeping to the promise of four minutes indeed is only three at the moment, and I'm glad for the my noble friend's acknowledgement of my achievement that this vital question was at the very end, at the very end of the conclusion of this report.
And it is that we must ask why, as a country, we did or did not have the determination to look forward and adopt policies that more directly address the concerns of the settled population of the country, whose general welfare must surely be the primary objective of any government. I endorse those words, my Lords, and I am under four minutes.
So I was point five irresponsible. According to the view in the debate, my Lord, that on this subject, on this very important subject, we must not sit on our hands. The rise in population causing strain on vital components in our society. The National Health Service, housing, demographic balance are all terribly, terribly threatening. And there has been too much social unrest, particularly arising out of immigration. And I can do no better. My Lords, in this brief intervention, and I hope the whips are noticing that I'm keeping to the promise of four minutes indeed is only three at the moment, and I'm glad for the my noble friend's acknowledgement of my achievement that this vital question was at the very end, at the very end of the conclusion of this report.
And it is that we must ask why, as a country, we did or did not have the determination to look forward and adopt policies that more directly address the concerns of the settled population of the country, whose general welfare must surely be the primary objective of any government. I endorse those words, my Lords, and I am under four minutes.
15:56
Lord Stoneham of Droxford (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Stoneham of Droxford (Liberal Democrat)
My Lords, I wanted to participate in this debate, obviously because of Lord Hodgson's valedictory speech. But I also think it's a very important debate and I thank him for it. He's been a as everybody has said, he's been a respected member of the House, indeed a great servant of the House for the past 25 years. I think he represents all that is best in this House, and we shall miss him. During the 14 years that I've been in the House, I shared some part of that time accommodation over in Fielden House with him.
So I had the opportunity, not didn't share the office, but we were in the same area and often we walked over for votes and to this side of the House, and we talked about the merits of Brexit and its demerits. We talked about three general election campaigns. We talked about the prospects for the coalition, and we talked about in this battlefield tours that we were going on or we'd been on. And I've always respected in this House the campaigns that he's so bravely led at times.
We've already mentioning the Albert Hall, but I also remember the Holocaust memorial debate, which I admired. His bravery and his interventions. I couldn't quite believe that he was going to be retiring when I talked to him earlier this week. He's always seemed to me so youthful and energetic, and the only consolation is, as others have said, that we will have Baroness Hodgson here continuing, which will provide a vital link with him, but we shall miss his contributions, his courage and his tenacity on issues dear to his heart, like this one today.
And we wish him, I'm sure, a very happy and long fourth age outside the house. So on the report I'd like to say I read it. In total I thought it was fair, timely, provocative and it's encouraged debate, which we've seen today, and I think it's an example of his persistence on on an issue that troubles him. And I congratulate him on it. The only criticism I have, and that's what I'm going to talk about today, is that I think although it mentions Denmark, Japan and Holland, I think it lacks an international global perspective because the pressure of immigration is from outside.
It's not just the demand from inside, it's the pressure from outside. And we live in an age now that, I'm afraid, sadly reminds me of the 1930s, the only consolation of the 1930s. Although it ended in a war, it did lead to a generation of international cooperation, trying to address some of the problems that the 30s were dealing with. But today we have not mass unemployment, but we have mass insecurity. We have a due to the huge pace of change, international competition and the breakdown of traditional jobs and occupations, we have absolutely stagnant productivity and living standards.
We have nationalism, or at least Nation First has revived itself despite all the efforts after the war to generate international work, to provide cooperation and stop the rise of nationalism. And we face a situation in this country of an aging population where there's going to be huge pressure on public spending and the need for care, provision of unimaginable consequence of scale as we go forward. And actually, I have to say, I think war in Europe seems closer than at any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis.
So immigration and population growth, inevitably in that circumstance, are very high on the agenda. And it's not surprising. It's a key issue, public concern largely, I think, because people think immigration is out of control. And I have to say, over the last few years, it has been extraordinarily so. I know it's had the problem of Ukraine and Hong Kong, but clearly the numbers show how out of control it has been. And the result of that is that some of the benefits of immigration are now being challenged.
I also accept that short term fixes may be the order of the day, but I do agree with the report that it is the long term trends which need attention, I don't think, and I'll have a time sink. I think whenever we talk about immigration and population, we must recognise that there are there have been benefits from it, the open economy, the dynamic energy that it's given us, the commitment to education and enterprise of people coming here for education have been important to our culture and our community.
We've only got to see the schools in our immigrant areas of London and elsewhere, where aspiration and commitment to education has actually strengthened my family. The last generation was half Dutch. The next generation will be half Indian, half Singapore, Chinese, and it's given our family huge perspective and dynamism. And I don't think whenever we talk about these issues, we should forget the commitment and the contribution that immigrants have made to our nation and still do, and we shouldn't underestimate it, nor should we play it down.
Now, obviously, the country wants to see immigration under control. They don't like lack of control, and that's what they see. I think Lord Forbes made this point in his speech. That is the principal problem at the moment. People think immigration is out of control. Now we know the boat migration problem is not the sole problem of immigration, but at the moment it's defying control. And it seems unfair to a fair minded country that people are trying to jump the queue.
But it's only one part, small part of the problem. But it attracts attention and focus, and we need to stop it. And I, I, I think the government have been trying to do that and I support their efforts in doing that, but it's not it's not going to be the the sole issue going forward. I actually think about the problem with the boats. I have to ask the question, Has Brexit made it harder? I think it has actually, because I think the French are not wholehearted behind us, and they don't have the pressure of the EU to bring them into line.
If we were a member of the EU, we can't tackle the gangs because we're outside Europol and we don't have the intelligence. And I think take back control has proved completely an illusion. Immigration in, in reality cannot be solved by one country. Sovereignty is not actually very powerful when dealing with the issue, because all the pressure is coming from outside. And unless Europe can address the numbers coming across from the Mediterranean, it's not going to be easy to stop the numbers coming across the channel.
Immigration is an international problem, and if we don't accept that, then I think we don't have an international perspective in dealing with it. Then I think we're losing a trick. Have we assessed, for example, or are we assessing the cutbacks that are now being made in overseas aid by ourselves in the USA on birth control in Africa? It's going to be a key issue and probably it's suffering huge cutbacks and women are being unable to get the help they would they would get, which would be available from overseas aid program.
So we're worsening the problem. The pressure of immigration. And I think those who think that pulling out of the European Declaration of Human Rights, I accept the point that it's going to be difficult to get consensus and and reform, but it needs redrafting. There's an international recognition that it does. But withdrawal from it, from international engagement will simply make the problem worse. I'd like to mention, in finishing one final aspect of immigration, we've not had much discussion of students and the dependence of our university sector on overseas students.
Students are not the problem, in my view, because they're transitory. But the report makes the excellent point that the problem is that the students move onto work visas and become settled, and that contributes to permanent migration. We should take the student figures or separate them out. When we're talking about the total number of net migration, others huge benefits for our university sector in having these overseas students. And we know about the soft power, but we do need to deal with the situation where people are staying on simply because we need their skills.
When our own people have not been trained to fill them. I welcome the debate. I think Lord Hodgson for his service and his contribution, and I wish him every good wish for the future.
So I had the opportunity, not didn't share the office, but we were in the same area and often we walked over for votes and to this side of the House, and we talked about the merits of Brexit and its demerits. We talked about three general election campaigns. We talked about the prospects for the coalition, and we talked about in this battlefield tours that we were going on or we'd been on. And I've always respected in this House the campaigns that he's so bravely led at times.
We've already mentioning the Albert Hall, but I also remember the Holocaust memorial debate, which I admired. His bravery and his interventions. I couldn't quite believe that he was going to be retiring when I talked to him earlier this week. He's always seemed to me so youthful and energetic, and the only consolation is, as others have said, that we will have Baroness Hodgson here continuing, which will provide a vital link with him, but we shall miss his contributions, his courage and his tenacity on issues dear to his heart, like this one today.
And we wish him, I'm sure, a very happy and long fourth age outside the house. So on the report I'd like to say I read it. In total I thought it was fair, timely, provocative and it's encouraged debate, which we've seen today, and I think it's an example of his persistence on on an issue that troubles him. And I congratulate him on it. The only criticism I have, and that's what I'm going to talk about today, is that I think although it mentions Denmark, Japan and Holland, I think it lacks an international global perspective because the pressure of immigration is from outside.
It's not just the demand from inside, it's the pressure from outside. And we live in an age now that, I'm afraid, sadly reminds me of the 1930s, the only consolation of the 1930s. Although it ended in a war, it did lead to a generation of international cooperation, trying to address some of the problems that the 30s were dealing with. But today we have not mass unemployment, but we have mass insecurity. We have a due to the huge pace of change, international competition and the breakdown of traditional jobs and occupations, we have absolutely stagnant productivity and living standards.
We have nationalism, or at least Nation First has revived itself despite all the efforts after the war to generate international work, to provide cooperation and stop the rise of nationalism. And we face a situation in this country of an aging population where there's going to be huge pressure on public spending and the need for care, provision of unimaginable consequence of scale as we go forward. And actually, I have to say, I think war in Europe seems closer than at any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis.
So immigration and population growth, inevitably in that circumstance, are very high on the agenda. And it's not surprising. It's a key issue, public concern largely, I think, because people think immigration is out of control. And I have to say, over the last few years, it has been extraordinarily so. I know it's had the problem of Ukraine and Hong Kong, but clearly the numbers show how out of control it has been. And the result of that is that some of the benefits of immigration are now being challenged.
I also accept that short term fixes may be the order of the day, but I do agree with the report that it is the long term trends which need attention, I don't think, and I'll have a time sink. I think whenever we talk about immigration and population, we must recognise that there are there have been benefits from it, the open economy, the dynamic energy that it's given us, the commitment to education and enterprise of people coming here for education have been important to our culture and our community.
We've only got to see the schools in our immigrant areas of London and elsewhere, where aspiration and commitment to education has actually strengthened my family. The last generation was half Dutch. The next generation will be half Indian, half Singapore, Chinese, and it's given our family huge perspective and dynamism. And I don't think whenever we talk about these issues, we should forget the commitment and the contribution that immigrants have made to our nation and still do, and we shouldn't underestimate it, nor should we play it down.
Now, obviously, the country wants to see immigration under control. They don't like lack of control, and that's what they see. I think Lord Forbes made this point in his speech. That is the principal problem at the moment. People think immigration is out of control. Now we know the boat migration problem is not the sole problem of immigration, but at the moment it's defying control. And it seems unfair to a fair minded country that people are trying to jump the queue.
But it's only one part, small part of the problem. But it attracts attention and focus, and we need to stop it. And I, I, I think the government have been trying to do that and I support their efforts in doing that, but it's not it's not going to be the the sole issue going forward. I actually think about the problem with the boats. I have to ask the question, Has Brexit made it harder? I think it has actually, because I think the French are not wholehearted behind us, and they don't have the pressure of the EU to bring them into line.
If we were a member of the EU, we can't tackle the gangs because we're outside Europol and we don't have the intelligence. And I think take back control has proved completely an illusion. Immigration in, in reality cannot be solved by one country. Sovereignty is not actually very powerful when dealing with the issue, because all the pressure is coming from outside. And unless Europe can address the numbers coming across from the Mediterranean, it's not going to be easy to stop the numbers coming across the channel.
Immigration is an international problem, and if we don't accept that, then I think we don't have an international perspective in dealing with it. Then I think we're losing a trick. Have we assessed, for example, or are we assessing the cutbacks that are now being made in overseas aid by ourselves in the USA on birth control in Africa? It's going to be a key issue and probably it's suffering huge cutbacks and women are being unable to get the help they would they would get, which would be available from overseas aid program.
So we're worsening the problem. The pressure of immigration. And I think those who think that pulling out of the European Declaration of Human Rights, I accept the point that it's going to be difficult to get consensus and and reform, but it needs redrafting. There's an international recognition that it does. But withdrawal from it, from international engagement will simply make the problem worse. I'd like to mention, in finishing one final aspect of immigration, we've not had much discussion of students and the dependence of our university sector on overseas students.
Students are not the problem, in my view, because they're transitory. But the report makes the excellent point that the problem is that the students move onto work visas and become settled, and that contributes to permanent migration. We should take the student figures or separate them out. When we're talking about the total number of net migration, others huge benefits for our university sector in having these overseas students. And we know about the soft power, but we do need to deal with the situation where people are staying on simply because we need their skills.
When our own people have not been trained to fill them. I welcome the debate. I think Lord Hodgson for his service and his contribution, and I wish him every good wish for the future.
16:07
Baroness Finn (Conservative)
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Baroness Finn (Conservative)
Thank you. putting on record my gratitude for the contributions in this House by my noble friend, Lord Hodgson of my noble friend, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, over 25 years ahead of his retirement. I have only been a member of your Lordships House for ten of those years, but it has been an honour and indeed a pleasure to serve alongside him during this time. He has been an active and effective member of your Lordships House, and he will be greatly missed.
The heartfelt tributes from noble Lords across the House today are testimony to this irredeemable truth. I'm delighted to take part in this debate. To take note of this report. Don't stop thinking about tomorrow. The the issues raised in the report speak to one of the most consequential policy challenges of our age the democratic demographic future of the United Kingdom. My Lords, the authors of Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow demand that we confront an unavoidable truth. The the, the demographics shape everything.
They shape our economy, our public services, our environment, our culture, our infrastructure and our welfare system. Demographic change is one of the least discussed, least understood, and least planned for forces in British public life. And as the noble Lord, Lord Fox pointed out, we should not be afraid to discuss it. My noble friend Baroness Verma, in her extraordinarily powerful speech, also made an eloquent, eloquent case that the issues of democracy. Democracy, demography and integration have been swerved for far too long.
My Noble Friend's report is both wide ranging and detailed. It is evidently the result of extensive research, and proposes a number of recommendations which we should consider carefully. I congratulate him on it. One of the most impressive features of this report is the fact that it shines a light on so many of the areas impacted by rapid population growth, on biodiversity, on national security, on water and food security, on public services, and on our ageing population. Increasing migration is undoubtedly a major challenge, as the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington and among many others have consistently warned, this report makes the point that without firm population controls and forward planning, the pressures on public services, infrastructure and the environment will become unmanageable.
We need to consider how to develop a mechanism that would ensure that migration numbers are sustainable, predictable and aligned with the nation's capacity to absorb them. Delivering and effect the long term planning framework. The report calls for. My Lords. The report emphasises that current demographic trends, particularly high net migration, a place in substantial burdens on housing, health care, education and welfare and infrastructure. And it warns that if present patterns continue, the United Kingdom could become one of the most populous countries.
One of the most populous countries in Europe within a few decades. Yet, crucially, population growth does not guarantee an an increase in living standards. Indeed, as the report notes, rising aggregate GDP often masks falling GDP per capita, stagnant productivity and declining real wages, relying on an ever increasing or on ever increasing population levels to boost headline GDP is a false economy. This point was well made by my noble friend Lord Hoffmann. What matters is what working families feel.
Living standards for person, not size of the population as a whole. My Lords, economic success must be built on higher productivity, better skills and strong domestic labour participation. Not continually importing labour to compensate for structural weaknesses. Relying on low skilled migration is not the answer. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey emphasised, we must prioritise our own skills, programmes and address urgently and directly the challenge of upskilling our own workforce. The report warns repeatedly that using immigration to prop up GDP growth or to compensate for an ageing population, will lead to long term fiscal strain.
My noble Baroness friend, Baroness Neville-rolfe spoke persuasively on this point. Even if population growth does, population growth does not reach that extreme. The medium term projections still point to the UK adding around 10 million people in the next 20 years, driven overwhelmingly by immigration. And it is for this reason that some kind of mechanism to manage migration, combined with reforms to the visa system to ensure that only genuinely high skilled applicants earning at or above the required thresholds can come to the UK.
This is about controlling the rate of change so that population levels remain manageable, aligned with public sentiment, and consistent with the nation's capacity to provide. The report underscores the need to align population growth with housing and infrastructure. The government has pledged 1.5 million new homes in the next parliament, and while that is an important commitment, the report rightly notes that without careful planning, new supply will struggle to keep pace with population increase. At this point, again was picked up by my noble friend Baroness Neville-rolfe.
How house prices have already been driven up significantly, in part because demand has far outstripped supply. If the population grows by over 6 million by 2035, as some projections suggest, then 1.5 million homes alone will not stabilise prices or alleviate overcrowding unless accompanied by strategic planning and major infrastructure investment. The report rightly highlights the issue of public services, with strain already evident across the NHS. As the noble Baroness, Baroness Stewart, pointed out, waiting lists remain above pre-pandemic levels and the report's projections make clear that without careful planning, an additional 10 million would exceed would further exacerbate pressures.
As the report notes, migration driven growth increases demand for healthcare. While the fiscal contributions of migrants vary considerably depending on skill level and integration, we need to shift our immigration system firmly towards high skilled, high contributing migrants while simultaneously investing in domestic training. This is particularly the case when it comes to medicine, social care and essential public service roles. At present, over 20 000 British trained doctors each year do not secure specialist training places. Yet we continue to rely heavily on internationally trained staff to fill NHS vacancies.
This is not sustainable. We need to expand domestic clinical training capacity and apprenticeships, ensuring that young people in the UK can enter professions that are desperately needed on welfare. The report emphasises the importance of fiscal sustainability, noting that population growth alone will not resolve pressures on the welfare state and pensions. Indeed, depending on the composition and productivity of the population, it can worsen them and that is why we must prioritise prioritise making work pay, tightening welfare eligibility and strengthening incentives for labour market participation.
My Lords, this report paints a picture of a country at a demographic crossroads. As the noble Lord, Lord Frost demonstrated, there is no doubt that if we continue with unmanaged population growth, relying on immigration as a short term economic remedy, we will face mounting pressures on service, housing, infrastructure and social cohesion. Although my noble friend Lord Sarfraz did make an excellent case for robots to swerve these these problems, we need to consider more carefully how we manage migration with focus on selective, high skill immigration, domestic skills, investment, welfare reform and a coherent long term housing and infrastructure strategy.
So I ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, directly to explain how the government intends to develop a long term demographic strategy that addresses these points. Will the government ensure that population projections inform policy across departments, from housing and transport to healthcare and welfare? And will they finally accept that migration cannot remain the default solution to labour shortages and economic challenges? My Lords, there can be no doubt that as we consider both the current challenges our country faces and the country our children stand to inherit, we cannot shy away from these issues.
We must consider the issues this report raises, and have an answer to the central question of how we intend to reduce our reliance on immigration, and focus much more on increasing our productivity, domestic skills, and building a sustainable economy. These are just some of the key challenges and questions which the government faces. It is not possible to reflect the full range of challenges highlighted in the report in my remarks today, but I am pleased that noble Lords have been able to bring so many of these themes and core challenges to the fore in their contributions, such as the environmental factors referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the fertility issues raised by the noble Lord Lord Frost, and especially the strains on social cohesion which which a number of noble Lords such as the right reverend Prelate, the Lord Bishop of Leicester, my noble friend Lord Blencathra, have highlighted and the issues and problems that were so eloquently demonstrated by my noble friend Baroness Buscombe.
As my as my noble friend Lord Hodgson. Highlights in the foreword of his report. The British have been repeatedly promised a policy by political parties of all stripes which would focus on admitting a limited number of highly skilled or creative individuals, a policy with which few would disagree. Instead, they have seen virtually uncontrolled numbers of primarily low, low, low skilled individuals. The debate today has been a good opportunity to consider why we have seen those levels of immigration, with their consequential impact on the path on in the past, and most importantly, to ask ourselves what steps need to be taken to put us on the right track for the future? Looking to the recommendations, my noble friend proposes a twin track approach with a new responsibility placed on government alongside a new body to monitor the government's objectives and provide research on that policy.
I entirely accept the premise that the premise that demographic policy currently lacks coherence with responsibility fragmented across the Home Office, the Department of Education, the DWP, the Cabinet Office, each one pursuing its own objectives with little regard for the whole. We have a system that is nobody's responsibility on data. The report recommends that the government should be required to monitor and disclose the likely level of population change in the near and long term. This touches on a point of real concern to noble Lords on these benches.
It was a little over two weeks ago that my noble friend, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, forced Ministers to review and publish the data held on the number of students who have had their visas revoked due to criminality during the progress of the border, Border security, asylum and immigration Bill. The government initially resisted publication of that data on issues as important as demography. The government should be seeking to build greater trust with the British people, and refusing to publish data has the opposite effect.
So can the noble Baroness, the Minister. Please reassure your Lordships House that the government will take a more positive attitude towards requests for additional data in the future? And while we are on the issue of data, I would briefly mention that my right hon. Friend Nick Timothy MP, in the other place, asked Ministers last month if the government planned to release data on the economic contributions by different profiles of migrants, in line with the Danish model. The Minister refused as the report highlights, better data and greater transparency are essential.
I hope the noble Baroness, the Minister, will be able to give us an assurance that Ministers are seriously reviewing the current publications with a view to with a view to improving transparency. The report includes a recommendation for a new authority called the office for Demographic Change or Office for Population Sustainability Ops. My noble friend is right that Ministers should consider our existing structures for monitoring immigration and population over time, not to mention immigration, which is of such concern when those choosing to leave the country are our wealth creators and high skilled young people starting out in their careers.
We do need the right mechanisms for monitoring and reporting so that Parliament, and in turn, the British people, have the information they need to make informed choices about the future of demographic policy for the future, about the future of demographic policy, the importance of long term monitoring was brilliantly explained by my noble friend Lord, Lord Horam. I am personally always skeptical of the creation of new NPS, as over time, public bodies often come to establish their own institutional views, and I would be interested in hearing from my noble friend how he would plan to mitigate that risk.
But there is certainly a strong case for some such body. My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right with his core thesis. Ministers must be held to account, and we should continue to explore new and tougher processes by which we can hold the government to account on the future demography of our country. Finally, it only remains to congratulate my noble friend on securing this debate on the day that he has chosen to make his valedictory speech. The debate, which has touched on so many of the core challenges we face as a nation, is a testament to his commitment to building a brighter future for our country.
As a devoted public servant, I know I speak for the whole house in wishing in wishing him all the very best in his next chapter. Outside your Lordships House.
The heartfelt tributes from noble Lords across the House today are testimony to this irredeemable truth. I'm delighted to take part in this debate. To take note of this report. Don't stop thinking about tomorrow. The the issues raised in the report speak to one of the most consequential policy challenges of our age the democratic demographic future of the United Kingdom. My Lords, the authors of Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow demand that we confront an unavoidable truth. The the, the demographics shape everything.
They shape our economy, our public services, our environment, our culture, our infrastructure and our welfare system. Demographic change is one of the least discussed, least understood, and least planned for forces in British public life. And as the noble Lord, Lord Fox pointed out, we should not be afraid to discuss it. My noble friend Baroness Verma, in her extraordinarily powerful speech, also made an eloquent, eloquent case that the issues of democracy. Democracy, demography and integration have been swerved for far too long.
My Noble Friend's report is both wide ranging and detailed. It is evidently the result of extensive research, and proposes a number of recommendations which we should consider carefully. I congratulate him on it. One of the most impressive features of this report is the fact that it shines a light on so many of the areas impacted by rapid population growth, on biodiversity, on national security, on water and food security, on public services, and on our ageing population. Increasing migration is undoubtedly a major challenge, as the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington and among many others have consistently warned, this report makes the point that without firm population controls and forward planning, the pressures on public services, infrastructure and the environment will become unmanageable.
We need to consider how to develop a mechanism that would ensure that migration numbers are sustainable, predictable and aligned with the nation's capacity to absorb them. Delivering and effect the long term planning framework. The report calls for. My Lords. The report emphasises that current demographic trends, particularly high net migration, a place in substantial burdens on housing, health care, education and welfare and infrastructure. And it warns that if present patterns continue, the United Kingdom could become one of the most populous countries.
One of the most populous countries in Europe within a few decades. Yet, crucially, population growth does not guarantee an an increase in living standards. Indeed, as the report notes, rising aggregate GDP often masks falling GDP per capita, stagnant productivity and declining real wages, relying on an ever increasing or on ever increasing population levels to boost headline GDP is a false economy. This point was well made by my noble friend Lord Hoffmann. What matters is what working families feel.
Living standards for person, not size of the population as a whole. My Lords, economic success must be built on higher productivity, better skills and strong domestic labour participation. Not continually importing labour to compensate for structural weaknesses. Relying on low skilled migration is not the answer. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey emphasised, we must prioritise our own skills, programmes and address urgently and directly the challenge of upskilling our own workforce. The report warns repeatedly that using immigration to prop up GDP growth or to compensate for an ageing population, will lead to long term fiscal strain.
My noble Baroness friend, Baroness Neville-rolfe spoke persuasively on this point. Even if population growth does, population growth does not reach that extreme. The medium term projections still point to the UK adding around 10 million people in the next 20 years, driven overwhelmingly by immigration. And it is for this reason that some kind of mechanism to manage migration, combined with reforms to the visa system to ensure that only genuinely high skilled applicants earning at or above the required thresholds can come to the UK.
This is about controlling the rate of change so that population levels remain manageable, aligned with public sentiment, and consistent with the nation's capacity to provide. The report underscores the need to align population growth with housing and infrastructure. The government has pledged 1.5 million new homes in the next parliament, and while that is an important commitment, the report rightly notes that without careful planning, new supply will struggle to keep pace with population increase. At this point, again was picked up by my noble friend Baroness Neville-rolfe.
How house prices have already been driven up significantly, in part because demand has far outstripped supply. If the population grows by over 6 million by 2035, as some projections suggest, then 1.5 million homes alone will not stabilise prices or alleviate overcrowding unless accompanied by strategic planning and major infrastructure investment. The report rightly highlights the issue of public services, with strain already evident across the NHS. As the noble Baroness, Baroness Stewart, pointed out, waiting lists remain above pre-pandemic levels and the report's projections make clear that without careful planning, an additional 10 million would exceed would further exacerbate pressures.
As the report notes, migration driven growth increases demand for healthcare. While the fiscal contributions of migrants vary considerably depending on skill level and integration, we need to shift our immigration system firmly towards high skilled, high contributing migrants while simultaneously investing in domestic training. This is particularly the case when it comes to medicine, social care and essential public service roles. At present, over 20 000 British trained doctors each year do not secure specialist training places. Yet we continue to rely heavily on internationally trained staff to fill NHS vacancies.
This is not sustainable. We need to expand domestic clinical training capacity and apprenticeships, ensuring that young people in the UK can enter professions that are desperately needed on welfare. The report emphasises the importance of fiscal sustainability, noting that population growth alone will not resolve pressures on the welfare state and pensions. Indeed, depending on the composition and productivity of the population, it can worsen them and that is why we must prioritise prioritise making work pay, tightening welfare eligibility and strengthening incentives for labour market participation.
My Lords, this report paints a picture of a country at a demographic crossroads. As the noble Lord, Lord Frost demonstrated, there is no doubt that if we continue with unmanaged population growth, relying on immigration as a short term economic remedy, we will face mounting pressures on service, housing, infrastructure and social cohesion. Although my noble friend Lord Sarfraz did make an excellent case for robots to swerve these these problems, we need to consider more carefully how we manage migration with focus on selective, high skill immigration, domestic skills, investment, welfare reform and a coherent long term housing and infrastructure strategy.
So I ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, directly to explain how the government intends to develop a long term demographic strategy that addresses these points. Will the government ensure that population projections inform policy across departments, from housing and transport to healthcare and welfare? And will they finally accept that migration cannot remain the default solution to labour shortages and economic challenges? My Lords, there can be no doubt that as we consider both the current challenges our country faces and the country our children stand to inherit, we cannot shy away from these issues.
We must consider the issues this report raises, and have an answer to the central question of how we intend to reduce our reliance on immigration, and focus much more on increasing our productivity, domestic skills, and building a sustainable economy. These are just some of the key challenges and questions which the government faces. It is not possible to reflect the full range of challenges highlighted in the report in my remarks today, but I am pleased that noble Lords have been able to bring so many of these themes and core challenges to the fore in their contributions, such as the environmental factors referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the fertility issues raised by the noble Lord Lord Frost, and especially the strains on social cohesion which which a number of noble Lords such as the right reverend Prelate, the Lord Bishop of Leicester, my noble friend Lord Blencathra, have highlighted and the issues and problems that were so eloquently demonstrated by my noble friend Baroness Buscombe.
As my as my noble friend Lord Hodgson. Highlights in the foreword of his report. The British have been repeatedly promised a policy by political parties of all stripes which would focus on admitting a limited number of highly skilled or creative individuals, a policy with which few would disagree. Instead, they have seen virtually uncontrolled numbers of primarily low, low, low skilled individuals. The debate today has been a good opportunity to consider why we have seen those levels of immigration, with their consequential impact on the path on in the past, and most importantly, to ask ourselves what steps need to be taken to put us on the right track for the future? Looking to the recommendations, my noble friend proposes a twin track approach with a new responsibility placed on government alongside a new body to monitor the government's objectives and provide research on that policy.
I entirely accept the premise that the premise that demographic policy currently lacks coherence with responsibility fragmented across the Home Office, the Department of Education, the DWP, the Cabinet Office, each one pursuing its own objectives with little regard for the whole. We have a system that is nobody's responsibility on data. The report recommends that the government should be required to monitor and disclose the likely level of population change in the near and long term. This touches on a point of real concern to noble Lords on these benches.
It was a little over two weeks ago that my noble friend, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, forced Ministers to review and publish the data held on the number of students who have had their visas revoked due to criminality during the progress of the border, Border security, asylum and immigration Bill. The government initially resisted publication of that data on issues as important as demography. The government should be seeking to build greater trust with the British people, and refusing to publish data has the opposite effect.
So can the noble Baroness, the Minister. Please reassure your Lordships House that the government will take a more positive attitude towards requests for additional data in the future? And while we are on the issue of data, I would briefly mention that my right hon. Friend Nick Timothy MP, in the other place, asked Ministers last month if the government planned to release data on the economic contributions by different profiles of migrants, in line with the Danish model. The Minister refused as the report highlights, better data and greater transparency are essential.
I hope the noble Baroness, the Minister, will be able to give us an assurance that Ministers are seriously reviewing the current publications with a view to with a view to improving transparency. The report includes a recommendation for a new authority called the office for Demographic Change or Office for Population Sustainability Ops. My noble friend is right that Ministers should consider our existing structures for monitoring immigration and population over time, not to mention immigration, which is of such concern when those choosing to leave the country are our wealth creators and high skilled young people starting out in their careers.
We do need the right mechanisms for monitoring and reporting so that Parliament, and in turn, the British people, have the information they need to make informed choices about the future of demographic policy for the future, about the future of demographic policy, the importance of long term monitoring was brilliantly explained by my noble friend Lord, Lord Horam. I am personally always skeptical of the creation of new NPS, as over time, public bodies often come to establish their own institutional views, and I would be interested in hearing from my noble friend how he would plan to mitigate that risk.
But there is certainly a strong case for some such body. My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right with his core thesis. Ministers must be held to account, and we should continue to explore new and tougher processes by which we can hold the government to account on the future demography of our country. Finally, it only remains to congratulate my noble friend on securing this debate on the day that he has chosen to make his valedictory speech. The debate, which has touched on so many of the core challenges we face as a nation, is a testament to his commitment to building a brighter future for our country.
As a devoted public servant, I know I speak for the whole house in wishing in wishing him all the very best in his next chapter. Outside your Lordships House.
16:21
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, for Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, for securing this debate. The report, Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow, is a timely contribution to our national discussion on population, prosperity and the future of the of our United Kingdom. Many noble Lords have already highlighted the noble Lords distinguished career, and I would like to add my thanks for his public service and for his notable contributions to my County of Staffordshire in his business dealings.
The My Lords, the report highlights the demographic shifts our country, our nation is currently experiencing. But before I touch on the report, I feel I should also reassure the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, that I will respond to the key points of his report and I will reflect on some of the questions and on Hansard, and answer some of the questions that have specifically been raised and will, as ever, write. But I would appreciate this has been a wide ranging report, discussion and debate.
I also should highlight to the noble Lord that before the general election, my boss was Sir Trevor Phillips, who he cited so I could end up getting myself in a great deal of trouble by the end of this response. My Lords, this government recognises the points articulate articulated in this document the pressure on housing supply, the strain on our NHS, the impact on wages in certain sectors and the importance of maintaining social cohesion amid rapid change. We are not alone in facing these challenges.
As the report notes, through its international case studies, many countries across the world are also grappling with similar issues. Before I move on to the substance of the debate, there are a couple of points I'd like to make in response to the noble Lord, Lord Horam, who raised the issue of Stoke on Trent and Staffordshire and where this debate can lead. My Lord, I am well versed. Having helped to lead the campaign against the BNP in my great city, and even and only this week, the now former leader of my county council had to Staffordshire County Council had to resign for his support of white supremacist social media sites.
My Lord, I am aware of what is at stake and so is my government. As the Prime Minister has stated, this is a battle for the values which govern our country, and it's incredibly important that we are part of the fight. And with response to Baroness Verma, who made a very, very powerful speech like her, my mother is also a force. I would suggest. That's why both the noble Lady and I am in your Lordships House. And she ensured that I understood my responsibilities to fight back against racism and that and that those who hated me because of who I was and not what I did.
However, I think my mother beat her because I went on my first demo when I was a toddler. Moving to the report in front of us. My Lords, I'd like to address some of the specific issues in the report. And and the points that noble Lords raised on the debate on migration. This government has been clear that we want a system which works in the national interest, attract attracting the brightest and the best, while being fair and firm. The modern challenges which migration migration can present do not overwrite the millions of individual stories of people who have come to this country over the centuries, built our nation in partnership with those already here and today are our colleagues, our neighbours, our families and our friends.
My Lords, I am here because my family fled persecution and found sanctuary in our great country. It was a brave decision to flee the country from which they were to flee the Pale of Settlement. But the scale of pogroms gave them little choice, and I am very grateful that our country let them in. Now, since taking office, this government has taken fair action to reduce the number of people coming to the UK, particularly in some of the areas identified by the report.
Our recent tightening of the rules around independence for students, and the review of the graduate visa route are evidence of the government's commitment to responsible migration management. However, fair migration. Fair management of migration is only one side of the coin. We must also address the consequences of population change already in the system, as outlined by the report's expert contributors. Given the request for better data, however, which I will come to later in my speech, I think it would be helpful to remind your Lordships House that the latest figures estimate net migration of 204,000 in the year to July to June, a fall from 649,000 from the year before.
If we're going to talk about data, we should also absolutely be clear on accuracies of data. Turning to some of the points raised about migration, the. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, the and the issue of asylum seekers, the government has published a new Asylum Policy Statement setting out significant reforms to the UK's asylum and illegal migration system. The statement outlines the current challenges, the government's objectives and a comprehensive package of measures to restore order, control, fairness and public confidence in the system.
Elements of this include. Refugee status will be temporary, granted for 13 months and renewable as necessary. Settlement will no longer be automatic. Instead, there will be a 20 year route to permanent residency, ensuring long term commitment and integration. Refugees will be able to switch into a new bespoke work and study route to access family reunion and resettlement rights, with new fees and conditions, in accordance with the rules of that route. This will enable them to earn down their length of time before they can settle in the UK to 20 years, both enabled and the noble Lord Stoneham from slightly different positions, I'd suggest, touched on the and I'll and the current plans.
Noble Lords will be aware that only yesterday the Deputy Prime Minister, accompanied by my noble friend, the Attorney General, addressed the Council of Europe's informal Conference of Justice Ministers in Strasbourg to talk about reform of the system, to make sure that the ECHR can be fairly applied with regards to illegal migration, and to secure the convention's future with regard to immigration and the effect on GDP raised by the noble Lord, Lord MP and the noble Lady Baroness Finn. The UK's immigration system is geared towards supporting businesses and accessing highly skilled overseas workers, who boost the supply of skills and talent in the UK labour market.
These individuals are the most likely to contribute to growth, and that is why the government has recently announced plans to improve access to our highly talented visa routes and tilt the immigration system back towards attracting higher skilled workers to the UK. The government is clear that overall net migration must fall from the very high levels over recent years. We plan to achieve this by reducing lower skilled migration and groups with lower participation in the labour market, who contribute less to growth.
And the noble Baroness also raised the issues of skills and productivity. Increasing skills in is responsible for a third of productivity growth, and provides the opportunity for people to boost their incomes and improve their quality of life through short courses funded by the Growth and Skills Levy and partnership with colleges and universities, Skills England will work in partnership with employers to support clearer navigation of the skills, landscape and training products with the outcomes they need. The Department for Work and Pensions will work with employers to fill the vacancies.
They have to get the right people with the right skills, or set them on the path to grow their necessary skills. Turning to the issue of work visas raised by the noble Lord MP since the introduction of the skilled worker route, the salary requirements dictate that a migrant must be paid whatever is higher out of the general threshold for the route or the going rate for that occupation. With an absolute minimum salary requirement, an overseas worker has to be paid. This is designed to place a premium on recruiting overseas, maintaining access to international talent for firms, but also ensuring UK resident workers are not undercut, something he would expect from the Labour Party.
The government is clear that international recruitment cannot be a cheap alternative to fair pay, and this must be reflected in future changes to the immigration system. On that point, I'd also like to turn to the noble Lord Lord, who raised a series of interesting points about new technologies, and I will reflect on his comments, especially that robots are nice. Given the subject of this report, he really is thinking about tomorrow. My Lords, I have the whole lyrics of thinking about tomorrow in front of me, and I am very disappointed that other noble Lords have not used them in their speeches.
Turning to the point of international students converting from study visas to work visas raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, the government's approach is to link migration policy and visa controls to skills and labour market policies, so that immigration is not used as an alternative to training or tackling workforce problems in the UK. This approach will be important to enabling delivery of the government's broader agenda. My Lords, moving from migration to social cohesion, the UK has experienced a sustained period of rapid demographic, economic and technological change which, alongside 14 years of Tory austerity, has put increased pressure on public services and local communities.
We have seen tension, frustration and in some cases division manifested in the most in the places most affected. I should at this point put on record my former roles at Hope not Hate, Where Social, as well as CST, where social cohesion and Counter-extremism Counter-extremism work were my core roles. I would like to reassure your Lordships House that these issues are being taken extremely seriously, and especially reassure the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Leicester, that this is key to what we seek to do.
The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government is coordinating cross-government efforts to consider a longer term, more strategic approach to social cohesion, working in partnership with local government, communities and stakeholders to comprehensively address complex deep seated issues in our places. As the right reverend Prelate asked my Lords, this is a whole society approach. As part of our Pride in Place strategy, we are providing up to £5 billion over ten years to support over 330 of our most deprived communities across the country, helping to build strong, resilient and integrated communities.
I want to put on record the fact that my great city of Stoke on Trent are participants, including in my husband's constituency, so no one, you know, just for the record, Bentley and North are areas that will each receive up to £20 million over the next ten years. Our long term investment is designed not only to address deprivation, but also to rebuild social capital and strengthen community ties in areas with a portion of funding expected to support cohesion related projects. Importantly, we are empowering communities to make decisions that shape their places.
We will continue to seek ways to bolster social cohesion, working in partnership with local government and civil society. Moving on to a consistent theme of today pressure on public services and housing. My Lords, the ten year health plan, published in July 2025, set out a vision for how the government will make an NHS fit for the future. The plan set a clear direction to the service and stakeholders and the public on the future shape of care through three radical shifts hospital to community, analog to digital and sickness to prevention.
Specifically, as was raised by. I still want to call her my noble friend, even though she's a cross-bencher Baroness Stewart. Engaged workforce is central to delivering the government's objectives for the NHS. The ten year health plan, published in July, set out the vision for how the government will make the NHS fit for the future. A new workforce plan will be published next year to detail how the workforce will be equipped to carry out, to deliver the ten year health plan, the roles they should carry out, where they should be deployed and the skills they should have.
This includes how staff will be better treated, have better training and more exciting roles. The new workforce plan will be based on Multi-professional teams, with the skills needed to enable delivery of the three shifts. Building on that point, as was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Phin, NHS England will shortly commence commence the second phase of the Medical Education and Training Review, working with partners to design a package of reforms that will provide doctors with the skills they need to meet the evolving needs of our patients within a modern NHS.
This includes work focused on procedural, on procedure heavy specialties to ensure rapid acquisition of skills and develop a and to develop a curricula that delivers the skills needed for a community based, digitally enabled healthcare system. My Lords, moving on to housing, we are committed, as noble Lords have recognised, delivering 1.5 million safe and decent homes. This Parliament as set out in our plan for change. We have already taken urgent action through bold planning reforms and a record £39 billion investment to kick start social and affordable house building at scale across the country, my Lord.
Houses are homes which anchor communities. It is vital the homes are delivered, are high quality, well designed and in places where people can work and thrive, we will ensure that we build. What we build is supported by the necessary infrastructure. Well designed place making, working in partnership with councils, housing associations and the wider sector. Moving on to employment support as was highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville Rolfe. Professor Harper's analysis in the report on an ageing UK workforce is particularly pertinent.
People in the UK are living longer, and the proportion of workers over the age of 50 in the workforce is growing only look at your Lordships House. Good work and careers have a positive impact on health, wellbeing and financial resilience. Work gives people purpose a focus for learning and an important means to engage with society, particularly important for people who experience loneliness in later life. As the right reverend Prelate highlighted, our focus is on lifelong learning, upskilling and incentivising longer, healthier working lives to maximise the potential of our domestic workforce.
The DWP currently offers employment support for all ages through its network of jobcentres across the UK and through contracted employment programmes. In addition, work coaches and employers are supported by 50 plus champions working across all 37 Jobcentre districts. Champions provide a critical layer of support through Jobcentres to ensure the needs of workers over 50 are met. My Lords, I have many points on the environment but there weren't very many points made on the environment. So I will write to the noble Lady, Baroness Finn, who was the main person to raise it.
Moving on to security, where there were several points. My Lords, Professor Clark, who I have previously worked with when he acted as an adviser to the House of Commons Defence Select Committee and who is a great analyst, addresses two areas of national security protecting the state from external threats and internal stability. He focuses in particular on military recruitment and on threats to national cohesion from state, from state directed subthreshold warfare. At this point, I should refer to the House to my register of interests.
As with my noble friend Baroness Stewart, I am also an honorary captain in the Royal Navy. And while and while we are talking about matters relating to my to well to the senior service, just a quick response to the noble Lord MP just to reassure him that the both the type 26 and the type 31 frigates are currently under are currently being built in the UK as we speak. And to reassure the noble Lord, when I had double questioned myself, I did go and check with the former First Sea Lord, who usually sits in front of him.
As Lord Stoneham emphasised in his contribution, the issues of security are key and and affect in part of the issues that we are addressing are outside of our immediate scope. These are both important aspects of the challenges we face. Our National Security Strategy, published in June, sets out the government's intent to harden its approach. Its objectives include strengthening our borders and making the UK a harder target for adversaries, and for gangs engaged in people trafficking. But beyond our borders, we must consider the effects of the very significant demographic changes which will take place in other countries over the next 50 years.
The strategy is clear that we are entering a period of significant global instability. Demographic change will contribute to a number of issues with challenging implications for the UK. As we set out in the strategy, our statecraft will need to adapt to this environment, ensuring we can defend our territory and oversee supply chains from increased competition, improving our resilience to transnational risks, strengthening our key alliances so we are better placed to tackle together the challenges that we all face. Noble Baroness lady Stewart is aware of exactly what's in the national security strategy, so I won't read out the details in terms of how we I'm trying to make sure I come in under 20.
My Lords, in terms of how we legislate, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, in terms of Henry VIII and delegated powers, following on from previous reports led by the noble Lord, I want to reassure your Lordships House that the Parliamentary Business and Legislation Committee will review every single Henry VIII power that comes forward. There are circumstances where it is appropriate for bills to contain substantial delegated powers, but departments with bills containing any delegated powers must produce a delegated powers memorandum detailing each power and the justification justification for it, which is published on on.
On. Introduction. Noble Lords are aware that we are seeking to move away from the sheer volume that had previously been before us in terms of Sis. My Lords, moving on to the lack of data to understand trade offs and what is happening on migration raised specifically by the noble Baroness, Baroness Noble, Baroness Lady Neville-rolfe and Lady Fin. Forecasting net migration is an uncertain business. The impact of external events, as well as uncertain behavioural responses to policy measures on migration trends, make future migration hard to predict.
Not all impacts of migration are quantifiable, as set out by the Migration Advisory Committee in their report on migration in the UK. While there is significant body of evidence which suggests that high skilled immigrants make a positive contribution, there remains a lack of evidence and significant uncertainty about wider impacts on productivity, investment and social cohesion. The ONS is making more use of administrative data in its estimates for net migration. The ONS keeps published estimates under review and revise accordingly, with estimates in the last 12 months marked as provisional.
The revisions published recently by the ONS are primarily due to changes in the data sources, which have led to improvements in ONS methodology, although the numbers have changed, the overall trend for net migration has remained the same. The Home Office are continuing to develop their data linking. In May 25th, the Home Office published a research report linking sponsored work and family visa data with HMRC pay data providing crucial data on the earnings and tax contributions of visa holders. But I appreciate that not all points raised by noble Lords are covered there, so I will come back.
I'm going to slightly over apologies. The key recommendations of the report recommends the creation of a new body that would provide a commentary on the government's stated policy objectives, to undertake research into demographic issues, and to provide an open, transparent forum to reassure the public that these challenges were not being overlooked. The government has made a manifesto commitment to strengthen the Migration Advisory Committee, to deliver several key reviews and to fulfil a new remit with a new Labour Market Evidence group to support a more joined up approach to migration and labour market policy.
The Labour Market Evidence Group consists of the Migration Advisory Committee, the Industrial Strategy Advisory Committee, the Department for Work and Pensions, Skills England and Equivalent Skills and Training experts from the devolved governments as set out in the Immigration White Paper. The Labour Market Evidence Group has an ongoing standard function to work together to gather and share evidence about the state of the workforce, training levels and participation by the domestic labour force, including a devolved and regional levels. It will focus on sectors, occupations and occupations which are central to industrial strategy, which currently have high levels of reliance on migration for their workforce or which are anticipated to in future, and will make recommendations about sectors or occupations, where workforce strategies are needed, or where the labour market is currently failing.
My Lords, this report is a timely challenge to all of us in this House and across all parties to think beyond the immediate term. The people of this country have a right to expect a government that plans for tomorrow. We are committed to taking action now to tackle these pressing issues, providing the clear leadership and long term strategic planning that the British people deserve. I want to thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson again for his report and for the opportunity to debate it in your Lordships House.
And in the words of Fleetwood Mac, who I assume he is very fond of, don't you look back. I wish him well in his retirement.
The My Lords, the report highlights the demographic shifts our country, our nation is currently experiencing. But before I touch on the report, I feel I should also reassure the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, that I will respond to the key points of his report and I will reflect on some of the questions and on Hansard, and answer some of the questions that have specifically been raised and will, as ever, write. But I would appreciate this has been a wide ranging report, discussion and debate.
I also should highlight to the noble Lord that before the general election, my boss was Sir Trevor Phillips, who he cited so I could end up getting myself in a great deal of trouble by the end of this response. My Lords, this government recognises the points articulate articulated in this document the pressure on housing supply, the strain on our NHS, the impact on wages in certain sectors and the importance of maintaining social cohesion amid rapid change. We are not alone in facing these challenges.
As the report notes, through its international case studies, many countries across the world are also grappling with similar issues. Before I move on to the substance of the debate, there are a couple of points I'd like to make in response to the noble Lord, Lord Horam, who raised the issue of Stoke on Trent and Staffordshire and where this debate can lead. My Lord, I am well versed. Having helped to lead the campaign against the BNP in my great city, and even and only this week, the now former leader of my county council had to Staffordshire County Council had to resign for his support of white supremacist social media sites.
My Lord, I am aware of what is at stake and so is my government. As the Prime Minister has stated, this is a battle for the values which govern our country, and it's incredibly important that we are part of the fight. And with response to Baroness Verma, who made a very, very powerful speech like her, my mother is also a force. I would suggest. That's why both the noble Lady and I am in your Lordships House. And she ensured that I understood my responsibilities to fight back against racism and that and that those who hated me because of who I was and not what I did.
However, I think my mother beat her because I went on my first demo when I was a toddler. Moving to the report in front of us. My Lords, I'd like to address some of the specific issues in the report. And and the points that noble Lords raised on the debate on migration. This government has been clear that we want a system which works in the national interest, attract attracting the brightest and the best, while being fair and firm. The modern challenges which migration migration can present do not overwrite the millions of individual stories of people who have come to this country over the centuries, built our nation in partnership with those already here and today are our colleagues, our neighbours, our families and our friends.
My Lords, I am here because my family fled persecution and found sanctuary in our great country. It was a brave decision to flee the country from which they were to flee the Pale of Settlement. But the scale of pogroms gave them little choice, and I am very grateful that our country let them in. Now, since taking office, this government has taken fair action to reduce the number of people coming to the UK, particularly in some of the areas identified by the report.
Our recent tightening of the rules around independence for students, and the review of the graduate visa route are evidence of the government's commitment to responsible migration management. However, fair migration. Fair management of migration is only one side of the coin. We must also address the consequences of population change already in the system, as outlined by the report's expert contributors. Given the request for better data, however, which I will come to later in my speech, I think it would be helpful to remind your Lordships House that the latest figures estimate net migration of 204,000 in the year to July to June, a fall from 649,000 from the year before.
If we're going to talk about data, we should also absolutely be clear on accuracies of data. Turning to some of the points raised about migration, the. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, the and the issue of asylum seekers, the government has published a new Asylum Policy Statement setting out significant reforms to the UK's asylum and illegal migration system. The statement outlines the current challenges, the government's objectives and a comprehensive package of measures to restore order, control, fairness and public confidence in the system.
Elements of this include. Refugee status will be temporary, granted for 13 months and renewable as necessary. Settlement will no longer be automatic. Instead, there will be a 20 year route to permanent residency, ensuring long term commitment and integration. Refugees will be able to switch into a new bespoke work and study route to access family reunion and resettlement rights, with new fees and conditions, in accordance with the rules of that route. This will enable them to earn down their length of time before they can settle in the UK to 20 years, both enabled and the noble Lord Stoneham from slightly different positions, I'd suggest, touched on the and I'll and the current plans.
Noble Lords will be aware that only yesterday the Deputy Prime Minister, accompanied by my noble friend, the Attorney General, addressed the Council of Europe's informal Conference of Justice Ministers in Strasbourg to talk about reform of the system, to make sure that the ECHR can be fairly applied with regards to illegal migration, and to secure the convention's future with regard to immigration and the effect on GDP raised by the noble Lord, Lord MP and the noble Lady Baroness Finn. The UK's immigration system is geared towards supporting businesses and accessing highly skilled overseas workers, who boost the supply of skills and talent in the UK labour market.
These individuals are the most likely to contribute to growth, and that is why the government has recently announced plans to improve access to our highly talented visa routes and tilt the immigration system back towards attracting higher skilled workers to the UK. The government is clear that overall net migration must fall from the very high levels over recent years. We plan to achieve this by reducing lower skilled migration and groups with lower participation in the labour market, who contribute less to growth.
And the noble Baroness also raised the issues of skills and productivity. Increasing skills in is responsible for a third of productivity growth, and provides the opportunity for people to boost their incomes and improve their quality of life through short courses funded by the Growth and Skills Levy and partnership with colleges and universities, Skills England will work in partnership with employers to support clearer navigation of the skills, landscape and training products with the outcomes they need. The Department for Work and Pensions will work with employers to fill the vacancies.
They have to get the right people with the right skills, or set them on the path to grow their necessary skills. Turning to the issue of work visas raised by the noble Lord MP since the introduction of the skilled worker route, the salary requirements dictate that a migrant must be paid whatever is higher out of the general threshold for the route or the going rate for that occupation. With an absolute minimum salary requirement, an overseas worker has to be paid. This is designed to place a premium on recruiting overseas, maintaining access to international talent for firms, but also ensuring UK resident workers are not undercut, something he would expect from the Labour Party.
The government is clear that international recruitment cannot be a cheap alternative to fair pay, and this must be reflected in future changes to the immigration system. On that point, I'd also like to turn to the noble Lord Lord, who raised a series of interesting points about new technologies, and I will reflect on his comments, especially that robots are nice. Given the subject of this report, he really is thinking about tomorrow. My Lords, I have the whole lyrics of thinking about tomorrow in front of me, and I am very disappointed that other noble Lords have not used them in their speeches.
Turning to the point of international students converting from study visas to work visas raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, the government's approach is to link migration policy and visa controls to skills and labour market policies, so that immigration is not used as an alternative to training or tackling workforce problems in the UK. This approach will be important to enabling delivery of the government's broader agenda. My Lords, moving from migration to social cohesion, the UK has experienced a sustained period of rapid demographic, economic and technological change which, alongside 14 years of Tory austerity, has put increased pressure on public services and local communities.
We have seen tension, frustration and in some cases division manifested in the most in the places most affected. I should at this point put on record my former roles at Hope not Hate, Where Social, as well as CST, where social cohesion and Counter-extremism Counter-extremism work were my core roles. I would like to reassure your Lordships House that these issues are being taken extremely seriously, and especially reassure the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Leicester, that this is key to what we seek to do.
The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government is coordinating cross-government efforts to consider a longer term, more strategic approach to social cohesion, working in partnership with local government, communities and stakeholders to comprehensively address complex deep seated issues in our places. As the right reverend Prelate asked my Lords, this is a whole society approach. As part of our Pride in Place strategy, we are providing up to £5 billion over ten years to support over 330 of our most deprived communities across the country, helping to build strong, resilient and integrated communities.
I want to put on record the fact that my great city of Stoke on Trent are participants, including in my husband's constituency, so no one, you know, just for the record, Bentley and North are areas that will each receive up to £20 million over the next ten years. Our long term investment is designed not only to address deprivation, but also to rebuild social capital and strengthen community ties in areas with a portion of funding expected to support cohesion related projects. Importantly, we are empowering communities to make decisions that shape their places.
We will continue to seek ways to bolster social cohesion, working in partnership with local government and civil society. Moving on to a consistent theme of today pressure on public services and housing. My Lords, the ten year health plan, published in July 2025, set out a vision for how the government will make an NHS fit for the future. The plan set a clear direction to the service and stakeholders and the public on the future shape of care through three radical shifts hospital to community, analog to digital and sickness to prevention.
Specifically, as was raised by. I still want to call her my noble friend, even though she's a cross-bencher Baroness Stewart. Engaged workforce is central to delivering the government's objectives for the NHS. The ten year health plan, published in July, set out the vision for how the government will make the NHS fit for the future. A new workforce plan will be published next year to detail how the workforce will be equipped to carry out, to deliver the ten year health plan, the roles they should carry out, where they should be deployed and the skills they should have.
This includes how staff will be better treated, have better training and more exciting roles. The new workforce plan will be based on Multi-professional teams, with the skills needed to enable delivery of the three shifts. Building on that point, as was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Phin, NHS England will shortly commence commence the second phase of the Medical Education and Training Review, working with partners to design a package of reforms that will provide doctors with the skills they need to meet the evolving needs of our patients within a modern NHS.
This includes work focused on procedural, on procedure heavy specialties to ensure rapid acquisition of skills and develop a and to develop a curricula that delivers the skills needed for a community based, digitally enabled healthcare system. My Lords, moving on to housing, we are committed, as noble Lords have recognised, delivering 1.5 million safe and decent homes. This Parliament as set out in our plan for change. We have already taken urgent action through bold planning reforms and a record £39 billion investment to kick start social and affordable house building at scale across the country, my Lord.
Houses are homes which anchor communities. It is vital the homes are delivered, are high quality, well designed and in places where people can work and thrive, we will ensure that we build. What we build is supported by the necessary infrastructure. Well designed place making, working in partnership with councils, housing associations and the wider sector. Moving on to employment support as was highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville Rolfe. Professor Harper's analysis in the report on an ageing UK workforce is particularly pertinent.
People in the UK are living longer, and the proportion of workers over the age of 50 in the workforce is growing only look at your Lordships House. Good work and careers have a positive impact on health, wellbeing and financial resilience. Work gives people purpose a focus for learning and an important means to engage with society, particularly important for people who experience loneliness in later life. As the right reverend Prelate highlighted, our focus is on lifelong learning, upskilling and incentivising longer, healthier working lives to maximise the potential of our domestic workforce.
The DWP currently offers employment support for all ages through its network of jobcentres across the UK and through contracted employment programmes. In addition, work coaches and employers are supported by 50 plus champions working across all 37 Jobcentre districts. Champions provide a critical layer of support through Jobcentres to ensure the needs of workers over 50 are met. My Lords, I have many points on the environment but there weren't very many points made on the environment. So I will write to the noble Lady, Baroness Finn, who was the main person to raise it.
Moving on to security, where there were several points. My Lords, Professor Clark, who I have previously worked with when he acted as an adviser to the House of Commons Defence Select Committee and who is a great analyst, addresses two areas of national security protecting the state from external threats and internal stability. He focuses in particular on military recruitment and on threats to national cohesion from state, from state directed subthreshold warfare. At this point, I should refer to the House to my register of interests.
As with my noble friend Baroness Stewart, I am also an honorary captain in the Royal Navy. And while and while we are talking about matters relating to my to well to the senior service, just a quick response to the noble Lord MP just to reassure him that the both the type 26 and the type 31 frigates are currently under are currently being built in the UK as we speak. And to reassure the noble Lord, when I had double questioned myself, I did go and check with the former First Sea Lord, who usually sits in front of him.
As Lord Stoneham emphasised in his contribution, the issues of security are key and and affect in part of the issues that we are addressing are outside of our immediate scope. These are both important aspects of the challenges we face. Our National Security Strategy, published in June, sets out the government's intent to harden its approach. Its objectives include strengthening our borders and making the UK a harder target for adversaries, and for gangs engaged in people trafficking. But beyond our borders, we must consider the effects of the very significant demographic changes which will take place in other countries over the next 50 years.
The strategy is clear that we are entering a period of significant global instability. Demographic change will contribute to a number of issues with challenging implications for the UK. As we set out in the strategy, our statecraft will need to adapt to this environment, ensuring we can defend our territory and oversee supply chains from increased competition, improving our resilience to transnational risks, strengthening our key alliances so we are better placed to tackle together the challenges that we all face. Noble Baroness lady Stewart is aware of exactly what's in the national security strategy, so I won't read out the details in terms of how we I'm trying to make sure I come in under 20.
My Lords, in terms of how we legislate, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, in terms of Henry VIII and delegated powers, following on from previous reports led by the noble Lord, I want to reassure your Lordships House that the Parliamentary Business and Legislation Committee will review every single Henry VIII power that comes forward. There are circumstances where it is appropriate for bills to contain substantial delegated powers, but departments with bills containing any delegated powers must produce a delegated powers memorandum detailing each power and the justification justification for it, which is published on on.
On. Introduction. Noble Lords are aware that we are seeking to move away from the sheer volume that had previously been before us in terms of Sis. My Lords, moving on to the lack of data to understand trade offs and what is happening on migration raised specifically by the noble Baroness, Baroness Noble, Baroness Lady Neville-rolfe and Lady Fin. Forecasting net migration is an uncertain business. The impact of external events, as well as uncertain behavioural responses to policy measures on migration trends, make future migration hard to predict.
Not all impacts of migration are quantifiable, as set out by the Migration Advisory Committee in their report on migration in the UK. While there is significant body of evidence which suggests that high skilled immigrants make a positive contribution, there remains a lack of evidence and significant uncertainty about wider impacts on productivity, investment and social cohesion. The ONS is making more use of administrative data in its estimates for net migration. The ONS keeps published estimates under review and revise accordingly, with estimates in the last 12 months marked as provisional.
The revisions published recently by the ONS are primarily due to changes in the data sources, which have led to improvements in ONS methodology, although the numbers have changed, the overall trend for net migration has remained the same. The Home Office are continuing to develop their data linking. In May 25th, the Home Office published a research report linking sponsored work and family visa data with HMRC pay data providing crucial data on the earnings and tax contributions of visa holders. But I appreciate that not all points raised by noble Lords are covered there, so I will come back.
I'm going to slightly over apologies. The key recommendations of the report recommends the creation of a new body that would provide a commentary on the government's stated policy objectives, to undertake research into demographic issues, and to provide an open, transparent forum to reassure the public that these challenges were not being overlooked. The government has made a manifesto commitment to strengthen the Migration Advisory Committee, to deliver several key reviews and to fulfil a new remit with a new Labour Market Evidence group to support a more joined up approach to migration and labour market policy.
The Labour Market Evidence Group consists of the Migration Advisory Committee, the Industrial Strategy Advisory Committee, the Department for Work and Pensions, Skills England and Equivalent Skills and Training experts from the devolved governments as set out in the Immigration White Paper. The Labour Market Evidence Group has an ongoing standard function to work together to gather and share evidence about the state of the workforce, training levels and participation by the domestic labour force, including a devolved and regional levels. It will focus on sectors, occupations and occupations which are central to industrial strategy, which currently have high levels of reliance on migration for their workforce or which are anticipated to in future, and will make recommendations about sectors or occupations, where workforce strategies are needed, or where the labour market is currently failing.
My Lords, this report is a timely challenge to all of us in this House and across all parties to think beyond the immediate term. The people of this country have a right to expect a government that plans for tomorrow. We are committed to taking action now to tackle these pressing issues, providing the clear leadership and long term strategic planning that the British people deserve. I want to thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson again for his report and for the opportunity to debate it in your Lordships House.
And in the words of Fleetwood Mac, who I assume he is very fond of, don't you look back. I wish him well in his retirement.
16:43
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Conservative)
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Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Conservative)
My Lord. >> It's been a long, very interesting debate, and I'm extremely grateful to everybody who has contributed. For the people who has contributed. For the people who said very nice things about me. Well, thank you very much. Not very deserved, but it's very kind. What was really encouraging for me was that there are lots of suggestions about how the ODC concept could be improved, could be made more appropriate, and that's what I'm really interested in, is getting this conversation going so we can get something important into the public consciousness that we are aware of and are tackling this problem head on.
And I think the only problem I have is with people who say there isn't a problem because there clearly is a problem, and we do need to face up to it. If I could just just pick up a couple of points that that's all, because I'm aware we've been here for some time. I did want to thank my fellow Long Marchers, noble Lord Green of Deddington, who's been on this for a long time. My noble friend, Lord Horam, the noble Lord, Lord Brook, who I was hoping to hear from, and I know it all went.
It went sideways. And of course, I hadn't realised we had actually a hidden long march in the shape of Lord Hackey, who'd been at it for 53 years, apparently. That's very good. So can I ask him to come in honorary long March with us? I think it's important that we should think carefully about how these are impacting across the piece, my noble friend, Baroness Neville Rolfe raised the impact on older people. 30% of people aged over 50 are unemployed, 30%. Now, can that be a good and useful way for us as a society to be behaving? And I thought the right reverend Prelate Bishop of Leicester for the first time, for the first time from that bench, we had something I thought, hello? What? He said, there is a question about how many people we can absorb now.
Really, really important and courageous point to make because in the past we've had this. Let's have safe and legal routes without ever saying where they're coming from and how they're going to be. And I really I really appreciate support. What he said. Then my, my roommate, noble folks who has kept me on the straight and narrow and of course, as we've seen his legal expertise enables him to ferret a problem in no time at all. And finally, my noble friend Lord Blencathra, well worthy guerrilla fighter.
But unfortunately, the guerrillas had to get back to the hills, didn't they? Because we couldn't get the colleagues in the Commons to pick up the torch from with it. But the background to it, my Lords, is that the executive is taking part, the expense of the legislature and is still doing it. And when we had we had our, our, our debates on those reports, noble Lord, Lord Collins of Hybrid, my great friend used to nod enthusiastically from the opposite benches about how he had to do something about it.
Now that he's on the other side somehow. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I'm not sure we can quite do it that way. So I want, I think we there's a battle to be fought, but it has to be done from here, from the backbenches, and it has to include the Commons, without which the Commons will say. Or the government will say. This is the unelected Lords trying to teach the elected Commons how to do their work. That's game over. Once that, once that, that's a dog whistle that always resonates.
So, my Lords, I'd like to thank everybody for having participated. I'd like to finish it with with one minute of a very personal nature. When I, when I was younger, I went to business school in America, and we used to have people come to talk to us who were not businessmen, tell us something about the the world outside business. So we had a concert pianist once and so on. On this particular occasion, we had an agronomist talking about soil management and how that was key to maintaining the outputs.
And he introduced to us a man called George Washington Carver, who was the first Afro American agronomist studying in the Delta. The Mississippi Delta found that sharecroppers trying to scrape a living out of cotton growing had not realized. If you grow cotton out of the same soil all the time, it was depleted and you did break crops such as sweet potatoes and peanuts. But he wasn't just an agronomist. He had a he was a philosopher. And that day, 60 years ago, we were told what his philosophy was.
And I'd like to use those as my parting words. He said, This is Mr. Carver's words. How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the old, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday you will have been all of these. And with that, my
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Lords, I take my leave. The question is. That this motion be agreed to,
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That this motion be agreed to, as many of that opinion shall say, content and the contrary, not
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content contents have it. My Lords, I beg to move the House do now adjourn. House do now adjourn.
And I think the only problem I have is with people who say there isn't a problem because there clearly is a problem, and we do need to face up to it. If I could just just pick up a couple of points that that's all, because I'm aware we've been here for some time. I did want to thank my fellow Long Marchers, noble Lord Green of Deddington, who's been on this for a long time. My noble friend, Lord Horam, the noble Lord, Lord Brook, who I was hoping to hear from, and I know it all went.
It went sideways. And of course, I hadn't realised we had actually a hidden long march in the shape of Lord Hackey, who'd been at it for 53 years, apparently. That's very good. So can I ask him to come in honorary long March with us? I think it's important that we should think carefully about how these are impacting across the piece, my noble friend, Baroness Neville Rolfe raised the impact on older people. 30% of people aged over 50 are unemployed, 30%. Now, can that be a good and useful way for us as a society to be behaving? And I thought the right reverend Prelate Bishop of Leicester for the first time, for the first time from that bench, we had something I thought, hello? What? He said, there is a question about how many people we can absorb now.
Really, really important and courageous point to make because in the past we've had this. Let's have safe and legal routes without ever saying where they're coming from and how they're going to be. And I really I really appreciate support. What he said. Then my, my roommate, noble folks who has kept me on the straight and narrow and of course, as we've seen his legal expertise enables him to ferret a problem in no time at all. And finally, my noble friend Lord Blencathra, well worthy guerrilla fighter.
But unfortunately, the guerrillas had to get back to the hills, didn't they? Because we couldn't get the colleagues in the Commons to pick up the torch from with it. But the background to it, my Lords, is that the executive is taking part, the expense of the legislature and is still doing it. And when we had we had our, our, our debates on those reports, noble Lord, Lord Collins of Hybrid, my great friend used to nod enthusiastically from the opposite benches about how he had to do something about it.
Now that he's on the other side somehow. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I'm not sure we can quite do it that way. So I want, I think we there's a battle to be fought, but it has to be done from here, from the backbenches, and it has to include the Commons, without which the Commons will say. Or the government will say. This is the unelected Lords trying to teach the elected Commons how to do their work. That's game over. Once that, once that, that's a dog whistle that always resonates.
So, my Lords, I'd like to thank everybody for having participated. I'd like to finish it with with one minute of a very personal nature. When I, when I was younger, I went to business school in America, and we used to have people come to talk to us who were not businessmen, tell us something about the the world outside business. So we had a concert pianist once and so on. On this particular occasion, we had an agronomist talking about soil management and how that was key to maintaining the outputs.
And he introduced to us a man called George Washington Carver, who was the first Afro American agronomist studying in the Delta. The Mississippi Delta found that sharecroppers trying to scrape a living out of cotton growing had not realized. If you grow cotton out of the same soil all the time, it was depleted and you did break crops such as sweet potatoes and peanuts. But he wasn't just an agronomist. He had a he was a philosopher. And that day, 60 years ago, we were told what his philosophy was.
And I'd like to use those as my parting words. He said, This is Mr. Carver's words. How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the old, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday you will have been all of these. And with that, my
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Lords, I take my leave. The question is. That this motion be agreed to,
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That this motion be agreed to, as many of that opinion shall say, content and the contrary, not
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content contents have it. My Lords, I beg to move the House do now adjourn. House do now adjourn.
10:30
Oral questions: Powers and fiscal instruments to business improvement districts to accelerate town-centre renewal and local growth
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Oral questions: Powers and fiscal instruments to business improvement districts to accelerate town-centre renewal and local growth
House House of House of Lords House of Lords - House of Lords - 11 House of Lords - 11 December The.
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First oral question. Lord Pitkeathley of Camden Town.
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Lord Watts I beg leave to ask the question, standing on the Order Paper in my name, and draw the House's attention to my register of
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House's attention to my register of interests. My Lords, it's with some
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My Lords, it's with some trepidation. We answer a question from someone with as much experience in the subject as my noble friend, and I thank him for noble friend, and I thank him for the work he's done on bids across London, supporting the mayor to deliver 50, and particularly for
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First oral question. Lord Pitkeathley of Camden Town.
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Lord Watts I beg leave to ask the question, standing on the Order Paper in my name, and draw the House's attention to my register of
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House's attention to my register of interests. My Lords, it's with some
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My Lords, it's with some trepidation. We answer a question from someone with as much experience in the subject as my noble friend, and I thank him for noble friend, and I thank him for the work he's done on bids across London, supporting the mayor to deliver 50, and particularly for
11:07
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
his work on the Camden and Euston bids. This government recognises the important role Business Improvement districts can play in Improvement districts can play in supporting local growth and regenerating our high streets and town centres. In the Pride in Place town centres. In the Pride in Place strategy published on the 25th of September, we committed to raising the standards of bids by making the standards of bids by making them more transparent and accountable, consulting on the ballot process and legislating to ballot process and legislating to expand property owner bids outside of London, and further details of those will be published in due course.
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Lord Pitkeathley of Camden Town (Labour)
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Lord Pitkeathley of Camden Town (Labour)
I thank my noble friend, the Minister, for her reply and I Minister, for her reply and I wonder, does the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill offer an opportunity to strengthen offer an opportunity to strengthen and expand the role of business improvement districts within the devolved economic development frameworks so they can play a fuller part in accelerating town centre renewal? And within this, does the government intend to give property owner bids, as she's already alluded to, a distinct and autonomous state separate from occupier bids to support more effective high street regeneration.
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
Bid reform isn't included in the English Devolution Community Empowerment Bill. However, the Empowerment Bill. However, the pride in Place strategy included a commitment to give property owners a formal role in shaping local a formal role in shaping local priorities by expanding property owner bids outside of London as soon as parliamentary time allows. Landlords will be able to work with councils, tenants and communities to create thriving high streets and support growth across the country. We are aware of calls for property owner bids to operate separately from occupier bids, and the policy is currently being refined working with the sector.
Further details will be published in due course. Fatality sector is the backbone of town centres, a 5% cut in VAT for hospitality businesses would give such a boost to our high streets. Does the noble Baroness, the
Further details will be published in due course. Fatality sector is the backbone of town centres, a 5% cut in VAT for hospitality businesses would give such a boost to our high streets. Does the noble Baroness, the
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
announced some steps in relation to business rates in the budget recently, and in our small business plan, there are a number of steps plan, there are a number of steps which will help to support those small businesses who operate in our small businesses who operate in our high streets, including helping to address them to address the costs and constraints. Create a licensing regime that supports the growth of hospitality and night time economies, and to enable them with local collaboration and capacity building, as well as addressing crime and anti-social behaviour in our high streets, which we know is a blight on those small businesses.
11:10
The Earl of Clancarty (Crossbench)
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The Earl of Clancarty (Crossbench)
My Lords, does the Minister acknowledge how important culture in the round is important in this context? Has she seen the report Improving Places produced by the Mayor of London, the Arts Council and King's College London, which and King's College London, which details through case studies everything from supporting artists studios to wider community events. This is so important for energising our cities and towns and being an essential part of their social fabric. Yes.
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
Well, I agree with the noble Lord. I haven't seen the report he Lord. I haven't seen the report he refers to, but I will take a look at it. And as we I'm sure as we discuss the the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill will have lots of discussion about how have lots of discussion about how to support communities as they promote arts and culture in their areas. And we have, as the noble Lord is aware, in the Bill, we are extending the powers for local groups to both register assets of community value and then giving them a longer time to make the necessary take the necessary steps to empower them with a community right to buy.
So we are taking those steps. We do understand the importance of those cultural assets on our high streets and in our towns. So as we discuss this in the bill, I'm sure he will be working with us to develop that further.
So we are taking those steps. We do understand the importance of those cultural assets on our high streets and in our towns. So as we discuss this in the bill, I'm sure he will be working with us to develop that further.
11:11
Lord Bellingham (Conservative)
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Lord Bellingham (Conservative)
The question by Baroness Pidgeon >> The question by Baroness Pidgeon about the hospitality sector. The Minister is aware that pubs are a vital part of town centres and urban regeneration. So why did the Chancellor persecute pubs in her Chancellor persecute pubs in her budget? So much so that hundreds are now banning Labour MPs from going into them.
11:12
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
Well, as I've already said, the Chancellor announced a number of steps to support our high street businesses as part of the budget businesses as part of the budget process, including steps on business rates, and we are all focussed on making sure we do all we can to support the hospitality industry, including the licensed trade, and we continue to do so. So I I'm sure that as we as those steps begin to take hold in our communities, we will see that hospitality and licence trade begin to be right in the heart of our town centres, as it always has been.
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Baroness Andrews (Labour)
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Baroness Andrews (Labour)
My Lords. My Lords recognised. high street, and we had a select Committee report on the built environment quite recently, which set out a number of different policies in which this can be done, policies in which this can be done, and one of the most successful and easily within reach is to make sure that we have more public services, diagnostic centres, housing, offices, the things that people are almost inevitably directed via digital use now. And yet they are desperately keen to talk to people rather than use digital centres.
I know, having argued with my own local council about bins recently, how relieved I was to talk to somebody who actually knew what a bin was. So I, you know, these all this can be done quite easily and it would revitalise the high street in a way which would generally benefit communities of all ages as well.
I know, having argued with my own local council about bins recently, how relieved I was to talk to somebody who actually knew what a bin was. So I, you know, these all this can be done quite easily and it would revitalise the high street in a way which would generally benefit communities of all ages as well.
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
I absolutely agree with my noble friend, and one of the benefits of local councils is they do know what local councils is they do know what bins are. So we are very familiar with that. And as I agree with her with that. And as I agree with her about the presence of both public and private sector in our public and private sector in our public spaces, when I took part in the regeneration of my own town centre, we were very keen to make sure we made best use of the public buildings in our town centre to generate footfall, but also encouraging the private sector to do the same, with a huge diversity of uses in that town centre, we know there's been a visible decline in high streets and we need to turn around that trend, fostering vibrant town centres, making sure there are amenities, services, green spaces, a cultural offer and high quality infrastructure.
Minister.
Minister.
11:14
Lord Deben (Conservative)
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Lord Deben (Conservative)
It is nonsense to say that the >> It is nonsense to say that the Chancellor has helped the hospitality industry. The industry is up in arms because what she's is up in arms because what she's done is to increase the cost of employment, to increase the cost of employment, to increase the cost of the goods that we sell, and actually to damage it considerably. And to say that somehow or other her budgets have helped is just, frankly, not true.
11:15
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
Well, the Chancellor is committed to making sure that our committed to making sure that our small businesses are supported. I said, we've produced our small business plan, which has a huge business plan, which has a huge number of measures to help with small businesses, and we continue to work with the small business sector to make sure that we are, first of all, finding out what's getting in their way of developing, but also to make sure that we smooth the path for the improvements that they want to see.
11:15
The Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham (Bishops)
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The Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham (Bishops)
My Lords, has the noble Baroness, the Minister considered the significance of historic church significance of historic church buildings in city centre revitalisation. For instance, in my diocese, the recent renewal of Saint Mary's Newark has not only repaired the grade one listed building, but significantly building, but significantly developed the town's cultural and economic vitality. There is uncertainty about the future scheme for VAT relief for the listed churches. The cap that was introduced last year affected long planned projects around the country.
So can I ask what assessment has His Majesty's Government made of the impact of this and of continuing the scheme beyond March next year, without the cap?
So can I ask what assessment has His Majesty's Government made of the impact of this and of continuing the scheme beyond March next year, without the cap?
11:16
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
Well, I greatly value the place. >> Well, I greatly value the place. Our religious buildings from all denominations play in our public spaces, and the right reverend spaces, and the right reverend Prelate is right to refer to some of the development that has taken place. The pride in place strategy sets out how we will deliver 5 billion over ten years to 244 neighbourhoods, and that means that our communities can take part in developing their neighbourhoods in a way that's right for them.
And they will. We will deliver 20 million of funding and support to be spent by the local neighbourhood boards, and we are encouraging all members of the community, including community organisations, to get involved in those boards, to drive local renewal. And then we'll have a separate Pride in Place Impact fund, which will deliver a cash injection of 150 million to an additional 95 places to be spent to spaces.
And they will. We will deliver 20 million of funding and support to be spent by the local neighbourhood boards, and we are encouraging all members of the community, including community organisations, to get involved in those boards, to drive local renewal. And then we'll have a separate Pride in Place Impact fund, which will deliver a cash injection of 150 million to an additional 95 places to be spent to spaces.
11:17
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Conservative)
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Conservative)
My Lords crossbench. Baroness can. Confirm that the public money that is being.
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public money that is being. While business improvement districts work really hard and we thank them to revise our revive our thank them to revise our revive our town centres. Despite the answers from the Minister previously, many of them are facing tightening fiscal environments. Business rates are rising. Employers are dealing with higher National Insurance contributions, and the freeze in personal tax thresholds. Compound pressures on local workers. And this, coupled with costly local government reorganisation. May I ask the Minister, please? Does the government believe that this combination of rising costs and administrative upheaval is helping or hindering town centre renewal and local growth? And what assessment has the government done of the impact that these issues that these measures are taking on our town centres? Well, the local government reorganisation that's taking place will create more resilient and stronger local councils who will be able to
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public money that is being. While business improvement districts work really hard and we thank them to revise our revive our thank them to revise our revive our town centres. Despite the answers from the Minister previously, many of them are facing tightening fiscal environments. Business rates are rising. Employers are dealing with higher National Insurance contributions, and the freeze in personal tax thresholds. Compound pressures on local workers. And this, coupled with costly local government reorganisation. May I ask the Minister, please? Does the government believe that this combination of rising costs and administrative upheaval is helping or hindering town centre renewal and local growth? And what assessment has the government done of the impact that these issues that these measures are taking on our town centres? Well, the local government reorganisation that's taking place will create more resilient and stronger local councils who will be able to
11:18
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)
support their communities to make sure that they are developing the with the suite of activity we've provided in the Pride in Place funding to make sure that community funding to make sure that community spaces that they value are being supported and they're able to work to develop them in a way that's to develop them in a way that's right for those communities. And, you know, it's really important that we get local government on a on a firm footing. It's been absolutely denuded of funding over the last 14 years.
So I'm not taking any lessons in the supporting of local government from the Tory benches in this House, because it's really important that we get local government on a firm footing with its funding, so that they can be able to support the local communities who have felt that their high streets have been neglected for far too long.
So I'm not taking any lessons in the supporting of local government from the Tory benches in this House, because it's really important that we get local government on a firm footing with its funding, so that they can be able to support the local communities who have felt that their high streets have been neglected for far too long.
11:19
Oral questions: Intelligence sharing with the United States of America
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Oral questions: Intelligence sharing with the United States of America
Second order question Lord Berkeley my Lords, I beg leave to Berkeley my Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper. There are long standing intelligence.
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long standing intelligence. And law enforcement frameworks between the UK and its Five Eyes partners, which are the US, partners, which are the US, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Those frameworks continue. It is the long standing policy of successive governments not to comment on the detail of intelligence matters, but for the benefit of the House. I can say benefit of the House. I can say that the Foreign Secretary and the US Secretary of State have both dismissed recent reports. dismissed recent reports.
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long standing intelligence. And law enforcement frameworks between the UK and its Five Eyes partners, which are the US, partners, which are the US, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Those frameworks continue. It is the long standing policy of successive governments not to comment on the detail of intelligence matters, but for the benefit of the House. I can say benefit of the House. I can say that the Foreign Secretary and the US Secretary of State have both dismissed recent reports. dismissed recent reports.
11:20
Lord Berkeley (Labour)
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Lord Berkeley (Labour)
on these attacks on civilian ships on these attacks on civilian ships and 19 attacks, most of which people believe are criminal people believe are criminal activities in the high seas. Now, my Lords, there's often quite a lot my Lords, there's often quite a lot of UK personnel on American ships, and they could be implicated in and they could be implicated in criminal charges. So has my noble friend considered considered removing UK military personnel from
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these ships until things calm down? I can say to my noble friend that with regard to the strikes that with regard to the strikes that have been recently taking place at the United Kingdom was not involved. We're committed to fighting the scourge of drugs and organised crime with our partners in Latin America in accordance with legal obligations. But I repeat for
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legal obligations. But I repeat for him, the UK was not involved. Intelligence sharing is.
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these ships until things calm down? I can say to my noble friend that with regard to the strikes that with regard to the strikes that have been recently taking place at the United Kingdom was not involved. We're committed to fighting the scourge of drugs and organised crime with our partners in Latin America in accordance with legal obligations. But I repeat for
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legal obligations. But I repeat for him, the UK was not involved. Intelligence sharing is.
11:21
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
>> Intelligence sharing is. >> Obviously essential to our national security. But if an ally leaks information or withholds information or uses it for illegal actions, does that not require the UK to look more widely for autonomous intelligence gathering of our own, less dependence on others, and more cooperation with others, and more cooperation with other trusted partners? Yeah.
11:21
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)
I think it's important to say to the noble Lord that the UK does independently gather intelligence, but I'd just say to him and to anybody else that the Five Eyes partners of the UK, Australia, Canada and New Zealand are critical intelligence gathering partners and the UK is better and more secure because of that arrangement. Yeah.
11:21
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
A reassurance on the Five Eyes partnership and I also commend the Minister on her versatility and adaptability on taking such a wide brief. We all know the feeling well. My specific question is about the the meeting, which will take place in Canada between the Secretary of State and the Secretary of State from the United States in light of the national Security strategy, the national Security strategy, which the United States issued only last week. What assessment has His Majesty's Government made of the Majesty's Government made of the relationship, particularly as we go forward with over 100 conflicts raging around the world? raging around the world?
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11:31
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
over the next 12 months, reduce fraud via telephone communication significantly. In the fraud strategy, we will be discussing strategy, we will be discussing with the fraud potential for reducing fraud through telecommunications and telecom platforms, and also through the platforms which they have, such as Facebook and others, which are a significant gateway to fraud. He's absolutely right, but I will have to reflect on those matters as part of the forthcoming fraud strategy.
11:31
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Conservative)
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Lord Bailey of Paddington (Conservative)
Does the Minister agree with me? Sorry. protecting young people in particular? I've been contacted by a number of student aged young people who found themselves through social media, caught up in money laundering. They sent a message saying could they their bank account be borrowed? The money is exchanged equitably as far as they're concerned, but then it's then investigated by the bank and found out to be money laundering, an offence they can never remove from their from their from their history. So is it is there a piece of work that the government could particularly do around protecting young people from money laundering?
11:32
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
The noble Lord is absolutely right. It's an area where the government has accepted that there is a challenge. There are resources is a challenge. There are resources going into educational opportunities, particularly targeted at university students, targeted at university students, for them to avoid money laundering. I visited a scheme, as it happens, in my home area of North Wales some months ago, where educational opportunities were being undertaken by regional organised crime agencies to meet with students to explain how money laundering works and how they can become victims of money laundering without them actually realising they're involved in money laundering.
So there's a great educational opportunity and we're trying to work through that. But self-evidently I will continue to look at what more can be done.
So there's a great educational opportunity and we're trying to work through that. But self-evidently I will continue to look at what more can be done.
11:33
Baroness Doocey (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Doocey (Liberal Democrat)
Government ensure. leads to a genuine increase in fraud cases that are properly investigated and taken to court, investigated and taken to court, and will the government make clear that success will be judged not by that success will be judged not by the volume of fraud cases reported, but by the conviction secured and the investigations opened and the
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charge is made? The noble Lady is absolutely right. And one of the things, again, right. And one of the things, again, trailing the fraud strategy that we're trying to do is to ensure that we have better criminal that we have better criminal justice outcomes for investigations. We're just starting. And again, this will become clearer when the this will become clearer when the fraud strategy has produced a better journey for victims of fraud, both in terms of reporting, keeping
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charge is made? The noble Lady is absolutely right. And one of the things, again, right. And one of the things, again, trailing the fraud strategy that we're trying to do is to ensure that we have better criminal that we have better criminal justice outcomes for investigations. We're just starting. And again, this will become clearer when the this will become clearer when the fraud strategy has produced a better journey for victims of fraud, both in terms of reporting, keeping
11:33
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
both in terms of reporting, keeping them informed and getting to criminal justice outcomes. There's a real wish by the National Crime Agency in particular, and the Serious Fraud Office to look at how we can bring criminals to justice. And there's already been a number of measures taking place where we've seized assets, brought people to court, and I want to see that continue. It's absolutely vital that we make the UK the hardest place possible for fraudsters to operate. And that means not just protection, which is better investment in telecom and telecommunication platform issues, but also putting an element of serious risk in for those fraudsters to ensure that they end up behind bars or lose their assets.
11:34
Lord Watts (Labour)
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Lord Watts (Labour)
Lord Soames the Minister agree with me that the regulators often used long consultation periods to used long consultation periods to do nothing and the general public want action, not consultation.
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Yes. I think it's important I say this to my noble friend in the this to my noble friend in the spirit of camaraderie, that we get these things right, and sometimes there are issues which take a while to work through. There is a wish. If he's referring to the question
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Yes. I think it's important I say this to my noble friend in the this to my noble friend in the spirit of camaraderie, that we get these things right, and sometimes there are issues which take a while to work through. There is a wish. If he's referring to the question
11:34
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
of Ofcom and advertising, which the noble Lord Clement-Jones raised, there is a wish for Ofcom to get it right, and there is a wish for them to ensure that whatever they do is legally secure in getting it right, and I want to give them breathing space to do that. But the direction of travel is there to ensure that fraudulent adverts are taken down, and that fraudulent adverts are not used as a gateway for the very issues that other noble Lords have
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issues that other noble Lords have mentioned today. Researched by the. UK Safer Internet Centre has shown that just under half of 8 to 17 year olds have been scammed online, with 79% of that age group having come across online scams at least monthly. What action is the government taking to reduce the impact of scamming on school aged children, who appear to be particularly at risk?
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issues that other noble Lords have mentioned today. Researched by the. UK Safer Internet Centre has shown that just under half of 8 to 17 year olds have been scammed online, with 79% of that age group having come across online scams at least monthly. What action is the government taking to reduce the impact of scamming on school aged children, who appear to be particularly at risk?
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
those protective measures are. And that goes back to, again, the noble Lords point earlier about money muling. We need to ensure that we raise awareness and put that into into the curriculum via our school into the curriculum via our school system. But actually, it's not just us who have to have a role in stopping scams. It ultimately is stopping scams. It ultimately is the state who has a responsibility to track down the scammers, to put protective measures in place and to stop that happening.
And that goes back to us ensuring that we have the telecom companies and the platforms very clearly taking down fraudulent activity ASAP, so that young people in particular are not drawn into what would end up being
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a cost to them and very damaging to their mental health as well as their financial health. Fourth oral question Lord Hunt
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Fourth oral question Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing my name on the question. Standing my name on the Order Paper.
And that goes back to us ensuring that we have the telecom companies and the platforms very clearly taking down fraudulent activity ASAP, so that young people in particular are not drawn into what would end up being
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a cost to them and very damaging to their mental health as well as their financial health. Fourth oral question Lord Hunt
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Fourth oral question Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing my name on the question. Standing my name on the Order Paper.
11:36
Oral questions: Evidence on which West Midland police took decisions relating to the Aston Villa versus Maccabi Tel Aviv match.
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Oral questions: Evidence on which West Midland police took decisions relating to the Aston Villa versus Maccabi Tel Aviv match.
>> Oh, I've not finished yet, my Lords, we've a while to go. The Lords, we've a while to go. The Home Office is committed to full transparency regarding the intelligence used by West Midlands Police for the Aston Villa and Maccabi Tel Aviv match to ensure full independent scrutiny. The Home Secretary has commissioned His Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, Fire and Rescue Services to inspect how police forces in England and how police forces in England and Wales provide risk assessment advice to local safety advisory groups, with an initial report groups, with an initial report focusing on the Maccabi Tel Aviv versus Aston Villa match.
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Labour)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Labour)
Particularly considering he has a statement to follow. But my Lords, he will know that first of all, the he will know that first of all, the decision of the Safety Committee in relation to the Maccabi fans coming relation to the Maccabi fans coming to Birmingham was a mistake, but it seems to have been based on very flawed evidence from the West Midlands Police force. In the first case, it relied on what the Dutch police had told them about their experience in Amsterdam with Maccabi fans, which the Dutch police themselves disowned, and it seemed to have been gathered through a zoom and unmonitored zoom call.
Then, My Lords, a football match was cited which actually turned out never to be played. And there is the thinking that it was generated by AI. And third, my Lords at the Home Affairs Select Committee only a few days ago, the West Midlands Police said that the local Jewish community supported the ban. My Lords, that was a mistake and the police has now had to apologise. My Lords, I think we've reached the point where there is considerable doubt about the integrity of the leadership of the West Midlands Police force and I would say to the government, I understand all these reports and due process, but actually, my Lords, I think action has to be taken here.
Then, My Lords, a football match was cited which actually turned out never to be played. And there is the thinking that it was generated by AI. And third, my Lords at the Home Affairs Select Committee only a few days ago, the West Midlands Police said that the local Jewish community supported the ban. My Lords, that was a mistake and the police has now had to apologise. My Lords, I think we've reached the point where there is considerable doubt about the integrity of the leadership of the West Midlands Police force and I would say to the government, I understand all these reports and due process, but actually, my Lords, I think action has to be taken here.
11:38
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
I'm grateful to to my noble >> I'm grateful to to my noble friend. Let me say to him, first of all, two things. The police and Crime Commissioner for the West Midlands is accountable to the people of the West Midlands for whatever they say. And the Chief whatever they say. And the Chief Constable of the West Midlands is accountable to the Police and Crime Commissioner and it is for them. I say this genuinely, locally to determine whether or not they wish to take any further action.
In the light of those interesting points that my noble friend has made, what we have done as the Home Office and what the Home Secretary has done, is to ensure that on the 27th of November, we have asked for an urgent report on the intelligence received and on the issues that my noble friend has mentioned, and we've asked to have that done via His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, and we've asked for it to be done for us by the 31st of December so that we can get to the bottom of what was said and what information led to what was said.
And I think, if I may, it's better that I wait for the outcome of the report that we've commissioned before. I comment in detail on any of the potential allegations that have been made around this. And separately, the Home Affairs Select Committee is obviously looking at this issue and will produce its own report in due course. The my.
In the light of those interesting points that my noble friend has made, what we have done as the Home Office and what the Home Secretary has done, is to ensure that on the 27th of November, we have asked for an urgent report on the intelligence received and on the issues that my noble friend has mentioned, and we've asked to have that done via His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, and we've asked for it to be done for us by the 31st of December so that we can get to the bottom of what was said and what information led to what was said.
And I think, if I may, it's better that I wait for the outcome of the report that we've commissioned before. I comment in detail on any of the potential allegations that have been made around this. And separately, the Home Affairs Select Committee is obviously looking at this issue and will produce its own report in due course. The my.
11:40
Baroness Deech (Crossbench)
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Baroness Deech (Crossbench)
Lord, my Lord, my Lords. it's not just a local matter. I've made a list of the number of times that this Prime Minister has said, that this Prime Minister has said, I quote, we will not tolerate anti-Semitism in our society and on our streets. But they do. He does more so than any other government. I remember in recent years, it's time for the government to indicate to the police that they should not prioritise the supposed interests of violent, unreasonable, anti-Israel politicians and mobs over the peaceful majority.
Whether it's football or protests.
Whether it's football or protests.
11:40
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
Well, let me, in the nicest >> Well, let me, in the nicest possible way, refute exactly what the noble Lady has said. This Prime Minister is committed to rooting Minister is committed to rooting out anti-Semitism, to tackling anti-Semitism, and to making sure that we do not have racism in our society. And he's doing so in a way that also, in my view, allows for people who take a view on Israel and the performance of the Israeli state to give their protest in a peaceful way.
And if she looks at the Police and crime Bill we're taking through now, we're putting in a range of measures to stop protests where they impact upon the community, of whatever community in a particular way. But I say to her now that she's also raised some wider issues, and I accept those issues, which is why we've asked His Majesty's Constabulary Inspectorate to look at those wider issues, as well as the specific allegations that my noble friend has referred to, so that we can look at whether we can improve the performance of safety group assessments in the areas for which she has mentioned.
And if she looks at the Police and crime Bill we're taking through now, we're putting in a range of measures to stop protests where they impact upon the community, of whatever community in a particular way. But I say to her now that she's also raised some wider issues, and I accept those issues, which is why we've asked His Majesty's Constabulary Inspectorate to look at those wider issues, as well as the specific allegations that my noble friend has referred to, so that we can look at whether we can improve the performance of safety group assessments in the areas for which she has mentioned.
11:41
Lord Polak (Conservative)
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Lord Polak (Conservative)
My conservative. >> My conservative. >> Lord Woodley to to the Minister, how is it remotely acceptable for how is it remotely acceptable for police leaders in the West Midlands to fabricate a report? As the noble to fabricate a report? As the noble Lord has said, with a made up meeting, a made up match, they have lied, lied to a parliamentary select committee. Basically, they have yielded to the mob, shamefully led by Ayub Khan MP, to use footballing parlance, if I may, how can the noble Lord, the Minister, have any confidence in the Chief Constable Guildford and Assistant Chief Constable O'Hara, as Nick Timothy has said they should be sacked today.
Yeah.
Yeah.
11:42
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
I'm grateful and the noble Lord >> I'm grateful and the noble Lord will know that. Any suggestion that intelligence gathering or community engagement led by Westminster, West Midlands Police, was anything other than the highest standard would be a matter of great concern. But I hope he will accept that. The Home Secretary has understood that concern and has commissioned a report, and I think it is fair and proper that we await the findings of that report before we take any further potential action.
And I refer him back to my earlier answer. When the Chief Constable is and crim Commissioner, and they are accountable to the people of the West Midlands. And a very significant step for the Home Office to take any action, certainly before we've had any further information in the report, we've commissioned.
And I refer him back to my earlier answer. When the Chief Constable is and crim Commissioner, and they are accountable to the people of the West Midlands. And a very significant step for the Home Office to take any action, certainly before we've had any further information in the report, we've commissioned.
11:43
Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
My Lord. >> My Lords, we have gone over this several times now and it all seems to be coming back to bad intelligence being leading to bad intelligence being leading to bad policy decisions. The Minister has said that we will be taking action. said that we will be taking action. Can he assure us that we will be informed on what is happening and when, so we can make sure this is not repeated? That is the essential thing. Can we have assurances that we will all know what is happening in the future so that this never happens again? Yeah.
11:43
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
First of all, just congratulate >> First of all, just congratulate the noble Lord on the announcement yesterday of his of his retention in the House through his new peerage. I think I've said already, but I'll just reemphasize it again but I'll just reemphasize it again that the Home Office has commissioned two reports. It's commissioned a report into the intelligence surrounding the Maccabi Aston Villa match and the failures that have been eloquently put to the House today. But we've also asked for a report to report by the 31st of March on the wider issues that the noble Lord Addington has mentioned.
Again, I can comment, I could trail, I could examine, but I think it's better if we've commissioned a report for the 31st of March that we await that report, and the conclusions of that report will be shared with the support.
Again, I can comment, I could trail, I could examine, but I think it's better if we've commissioned a report for the 31st of March that we await that report, and the conclusions of that report will be shared with the support.
11:44
Baroness Berger (Labour)
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Baroness Berger (Labour)
My Lords, the times has reported that UEFA was present at the that UEFA was present at the Birmingham Safety Advisory Group meeting, and that UEFA advised that the Villa Maccabi game should go the Villa Maccabi game should go ahead. Is my noble friend the Minister able to confirm this, and Minister able to confirm this, and if not, can he urgently write and clarify UEFA's position whether they did attend any part of the meeting, either online or in person, and what advice UEFA offered about the viability of the game.
11:45
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
I'm grateful to my noble friend. I hope I can help her by saying that my understanding, and this is that my understanding, and this is my understanding of what has been said to date, is that UEFA were not directly represented at the meeting, but were involved in some wider discussions regarding the admission of fans. Now, what those wider discussions were, the Home Office was not party to. But again, I hope that the wider investigation, which I've already indicated to my noble friend from King's Heath, will examine that, and the policing Minister herself said in evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee that we are exploring the processes around the role of the Safety Advisory Group when considering events of national and sensitive significance.
And again, whether we have external bodies commenting on those matters will be part of that reflection.
And again, whether we have external bodies commenting on those matters will be part of that reflection.
11:46
Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
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Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
My Lords, the. Obviously I think Lord hunt is quite right. >> To raise this. >> Issue because I become confused. >> About the source of intelligence. >> And the quality of it and this decision making process, particularly because the outcome particularly because the outcome was that Israelis were stopped from visiting the UK and stopped from attending illegal sporting event, particularly at the moment, a very serious issue. Of course, this is a two part process. The police provide the intelligence and the Sports Safety Committee did the banning.
I'm not sure who's looking into their decision making and the juxtaposition between the two who called for what, because I can't remember the last time any sports safety committee banned away supporters. So would it be possible for the Minister to let us know, at least in writing, when that happened? And who's looking into that decision making between them and also by the safety committee?
I'm not sure who's looking into their decision making and the juxtaposition between the two who called for what, because I can't remember the last time any sports safety committee banned away supporters. So would it be possible for the Minister to let us know, at least in writing, when that happened? And who's looking into that decision making between them and also by the safety committee?
11:47
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
I understand that again, this is for the West Midlands Police Force for the West Midlands Police Force area and the police and Crime Commissioner that they are undertaking their own review into undertaking their own review into what happened and how that worked. They're undertaking their own review. We have commissioned a review through the inspectorate to look at the issues surrounding that particular incident, including the Safety Advisory Group, and we're commissioning a report for the 31st of March on the wider issues of the Safety Advisory Group and how we can improve that performance in future.
I've heard what my what the noble Lord has said, but I think if he'll again let me, I need to examine those details. When we have information before the Home Office. And self-evidently, if noble Lords wish to table questions around the 31st of December report post Christmas, they can do if they wish to table questions about the 31st of March report post the 30th of March. They can do, and I have undoubtedly will be making further comments on both of those to this House in due course.
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My Lords, that concludes our questions for today. Any member wishing to leave the chamber may do
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. Lords. We now come to an instrument previously debated in Grand Committee. Immigration Skills Charge Amendment Regulations 2025
I've heard what my what the noble Lord has said, but I think if he'll again let me, I need to examine those details. When we have information before the Home Office. And self-evidently, if noble Lords wish to table questions around the 31st of December report post Christmas, they can do if they wish to table questions about the 31st of March report post the 30th of March. They can do, and I have undoubtedly will be making further comments on both of those to this House in due course.
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My Lords, that concludes our questions for today. Any member wishing to leave the chamber may do
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. Lords. We now come to an instrument previously debated in Grand Committee. Immigration Skills Charge Amendment Regulations 2025
11:49
11:49
11:49
Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)
should not refer to any specific cases currently before the courts, and that they should exercise and that they should exercise caution with respect to any specific cases that might subsequently come before the courts, subsequently come before the courts, in order not to prejudice these proceedings. Questions. In the statement made in the House of statement made in the House of Commons on Tuesday 9th of December on safeguarding.
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on safeguarding. My Lords. This has been a long time, a long time coming in a series of events that have spanned the entire year, the government has finally taken the first steps to establishing the National Inquiry into the Grooming Gang scandal. I will not recount the absolute horrors that have been faced by victims. Noble Lords will be well versed in the details by now. The sentencing remarks from the trials demonstrate the appalling and vile abuse that these gangs perpetrated.
It is shameful that it took the government so long to get where they are today. It was all the way back in January, when the first calls were made by these benches for the government to launch a national inquiry. The government at that time, point blank, refused, smearing those urging an inquiry as being far right. In one of the numerous screeching U-turns that have become a mainstay of the government's conduct. The Home Secretary then announced that there would be a full national inquiry, and that was in June, and it has taken us until December for the chair to be appointed and the terms of reference to be published.
This is deeply regrettable. The government has appointed the noble Baroness, Lady Longfield, to chair the inquiry. Obviously she is a is. She is currently a Labour peer and I understand she will be resigning the Labour whip. But really, really is the noble Lord. The Minister, satisfied that a politically aligned appointment for chair will have the support of the victims of these gangs. Not only this, but in her register of members interests for her role as chair of the Police Remuneration Review Body, it states that Zoe Billingham is also a member of the Labour Party.
She is one of three that will make up the panel. So, My Lords, two out of three members of the leadership of the inquiry are directly linked to the Labour Party. So does the noble Lord. The Minister think that sends the correct message to survivors? It is clear to me that it may undermine trust in the independence of the inquiry. This is even more important given that a number of the victims have already signalled their distrust in this process. So can the noble Lord.
The Minister, absolutely guarantee that the inquiry will not shy away from investigating the links between nationality and ethnicity, and the mass rape of young girls? That is the crux of the matter. It is the deliberate cover up of these crimes due to fears of racism that led to countless young white girls being ignored and cast aside by the authorities that were meant to protect them. The inquiry cannot lose sight of that. The terms of reference that have been published state that they will only investigate issues arising up until the date of the establishment of the inquiry, and that it will not attempt to be exhaustive.
This makes it seem like these are events from the past, where the only concern is that we do not allow this to happen again. But my Lords, it is still happening. How will the inquiry, and indeed the government, address the concerns that young girls are still being abused and raped by gangs of men of mainly Pakistani origin? And finally, we still do not know what areas will be investigated and what criteria will be used to determine this. So can the noble Lord, the Minister tell the House how the inquiry will determine which local areas will be investigated, and how they will ensure that certain councils and
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on safeguarding. My Lords. This has been a long time, a long time coming in a series of events that have spanned the entire year, the government has finally taken the first steps to establishing the National Inquiry into the Grooming Gang scandal. I will not recount the absolute horrors that have been faced by victims. Noble Lords will be well versed in the details by now. The sentencing remarks from the trials demonstrate the appalling and vile abuse that these gangs perpetrated.
It is shameful that it took the government so long to get where they are today. It was all the way back in January, when the first calls were made by these benches for the government to launch a national inquiry. The government at that time, point blank, refused, smearing those urging an inquiry as being far right. In one of the numerous screeching U-turns that have become a mainstay of the government's conduct. The Home Secretary then announced that there would be a full national inquiry, and that was in June, and it has taken us until December for the chair to be appointed and the terms of reference to be published.
This is deeply regrettable. The government has appointed the noble Baroness, Lady Longfield, to chair the inquiry. Obviously she is a is. She is currently a Labour peer and I understand she will be resigning the Labour whip. But really, really is the noble Lord. The Minister, satisfied that a politically aligned appointment for chair will have the support of the victims of these gangs. Not only this, but in her register of members interests for her role as chair of the Police Remuneration Review Body, it states that Zoe Billingham is also a member of the Labour Party.
She is one of three that will make up the panel. So, My Lords, two out of three members of the leadership of the inquiry are directly linked to the Labour Party. So does the noble Lord. The Minister think that sends the correct message to survivors? It is clear to me that it may undermine trust in the independence of the inquiry. This is even more important given that a number of the victims have already signalled their distrust in this process. So can the noble Lord.
The Minister, absolutely guarantee that the inquiry will not shy away from investigating the links between nationality and ethnicity, and the mass rape of young girls? That is the crux of the matter. It is the deliberate cover up of these crimes due to fears of racism that led to countless young white girls being ignored and cast aside by the authorities that were meant to protect them. The inquiry cannot lose sight of that. The terms of reference that have been published state that they will only investigate issues arising up until the date of the establishment of the inquiry, and that it will not attempt to be exhaustive.
This makes it seem like these are events from the past, where the only concern is that we do not allow this to happen again. But my Lords, it is still happening. How will the inquiry, and indeed the government, address the concerns that young girls are still being abused and raped by gangs of men of mainly Pakistani origin? And finally, we still do not know what areas will be investigated and what criteria will be used to determine this. So can the noble Lord, the Minister tell the House how the inquiry will determine which local areas will be investigated, and how they will ensure that certain councils and
11:08
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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The. First oral question. Lord Pitkeathley of Camden Town.
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Lord Pitkeathley of Camden Town. Lord Watts I beg leave standing on the Order Paper in my name, standing on the Order Paper in my name, and draw the House's attention
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and draw the House's attention My Lords, it's with some trepidation. We answer a question from We answer a question from experience in the subject and I thank him for the work supporting the mayor to deliver 50, and particularly for his work This government recognises Business Improvement districts can play in supporting local our high streets and town centres. In the Pride in Place strategy we committed to raising making them more transparent consulting on the ballot to expand property owner
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and further details of those I thank my noble friend,
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I thank my noble friend, does the English Devolution does the English Devolution Bill offer an opportunity the role of business improvement districts the role of business improvement districts within the devolved economic development frameworks so they can play a fuller part in accelerating town centre renewal? in accelerating town centre renewal? And within this, does the government as she's already alluded to, a distinct and autonomous state to support more effective
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Bid reform isn't Devolution Community Empowerment Bill. However, the pride in Place However, the pride in Place to give property owners local priorities by expanding local priorities by expanding of London as soon as Landlords will be able tenants and communities tenants and communities streets and support growth We are aware of calls We are aware of calls to operate separately from occupier bids, and the policy is currently being Further details will be Fatality sector is the backbone of Does the noble Baroness, We have produced a great deal of including those on our high streets.
The Chancellor announced to business rates in the budget recently, and in our small business plan, there are a number of steps which small businesses who operate including helping to address them to Create a licensing regime of hospitality and night time economies, and to enable them with local as well as addressing behaviour in our high streets, which we know is a blight
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My Lords, does the Minister culture in the round is culture in the round is Has she seen the report Improving Places produced by the Mayor of London, produced by the Mayor of London, the Arts Council which details through case studies which details through case studies artists studios to wider community events. This is so important for This is so important for and being an essential part Yes.
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Well, I agree with the noble Lord. I haven't seen the report he refers I haven't seen the report he refers And as we I'm sure as we discuss and Community Empowerment Bill will have and Community Empowerment Bill will have lots of discussion about as they promote arts as they promote arts And we have, as the noble And we have, as the noble we are extending to both register assets of community value and then giving them a longer the necessary steps to empower them So we are taking those steps.
We do understand assets on our high streets So as we discuss this in the bill, I'm sure he will be working with
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The question by Baroness Pidgeon The Minister is aware that of town centres and urban regeneration. of town centres and urban regeneration. So why did the Chancellor So much so that hundreds are now banning So much so that hundreds are now banning Labour MPs from going into them.
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Labour MPs from going into them. Well, as I've already said, the Chancellor announced the Chancellor announced high street businesses as including steps on business rates, and we are all focussed we can to support including the licensed trade, So I I'm sure that as we as those steps begin to take hold in our communities, we will see that hospitality in the heart of our town
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My Lords. My Lords recognised. That we have to
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That we have to and we had a select Committee report on the built environment quite recently, the built environment quite recently, which set out a number of different and one of the most successful and one of the most successful sure that we have more public sure that we have more public housing, offices, the things inevitably directed via digital use now. And yet they are desperately people rather than use digital centres. I know, having argued with my own how relieved I was to talk to somebody So I, you know, these all this can be done quite easily and it would revitalise
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the high street in a way benefit communities of all ages as well. I absolutely agree and one of the benefits of local and one of the benefits of local So we are very familiar with that. So we are very familiar with that. And as I agree with her public and private sector when I took part in when I took part in we were very keen to make sure buildings in our town centre but also encouraging with a huge diversity of we know there's been streets and we need to fostering vibrant town centres, making sure there are amenities, services, green spaces, a cultural offer
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My Lords, my my Lords, the Minister. It is nonsense to say has helped the hospitality industry. has helped the hospitality industry. The industry is up in done is to increase done is to increase to increase the cost of and actually to damage it considerably. and actually to damage it considerably. And to say that somehow have helped is just, frankly, not true.
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have helped is just, frankly, not true. Well, the Chancellor sure that our small I said, we've produced which has a huge number of measures and we continue to work sector to make sure that we are, first of all, finding out what's
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but also to make sure for the improvements My Lords, has the noble Baroness,
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My Lords, has the noble Baroness, the Minister considered the significance of historic church buildings of historic church buildings For instance, in my diocese, Newark has not only repaired Newark has not only repaired but significantly developed the town's but significantly developed the town's There is uncertainty for VAT relief for the listed churches. The cap that was introduced long planned projects around the country. So can I ask what assessment Government made of the impact of this and of continuing the scheme beyond
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March next year, without the cap? Well, I greatly value the place.
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Well, I greatly value the place. Our religious buildings Our religious buildings play in our public spaces, and the right reverend to some of the development to some of the development The pride in place strategy 5 billion over ten years 5 billion over ten years and that means that our communities their neighbourhoods in And they will. We will deliver 20 million to be spent by the local and we are encouraging all including community in those boards, to drive local renewal.
And then we'll have a separate which will deliver a cash injection
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95 places to be spent to improve My Lords crossbench. Lord Ashcombe, the noble Baroness can.
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Lord Ashcombe, the noble Baroness can. Confirm that the public
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Confirm that the public While business improvement
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While business improvement and we thank them to revise Despite the answers from many of them are facing Business rates are rising. Employers are dealing with higher and the freeze in personal tax thresholds. Compound pressures on local workers. And this, coupled with costly May I ask the Minister, please? Does the government believe of rising costs and administrative upheaval is helping or hindering town And what assessment has the government issues that these measures are Well, the local government will create more resilient who will be able to support sure that they are developing of activity we've provided in to make sure that community are being supported and they're them in a way that's right And, you know, it's get local government on It's been absolutely denuded of So I'm not taking any lessons government from the Tory because it's really government on a firm so that they can be able to support felt that their high streets have
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Second order question I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.
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Standing in my name on the Order Paper. There are long standing intelligence. And law enforcement frameworks between the UK and its Five Eyes partners, the UK and its Five Eyes partners, which are the US, Australia, Those frameworks continue. Those frameworks continue. It is the long standing governments not to comment on the detail of intelligence matters, the detail of intelligence matters, I can say that the Foreign
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of State have both To my noble friend for that response.
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To my noble friend for that response. But but one particular issue, which But but one particular issue, which and that is the American and that is the American boats in the Caribbean and the Pacific. attacks on civilian ships and 19 attacks, most of which people believe are Now, my Lords, there's often quite a lot of UK personnel on American ships, and they could be implicated So has my noble friend considered personnel from these ships
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I can say to my noble friend that with regard to the strikes that have been recently taking place at been recently taking place at We're committed to fighting the scourge of drugs and organised crime with our partners in Latin America in our partners in Latin America in But I repeat for him,
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But I repeat for him, Intelligence sharing is. Obviously essential to
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Obviously essential to But if an ally leaks information or uses it does that not require autonomous intelligence
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less dependence on others, with other trusted partners? Yeah. I think it's important to
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I think it's important to the UK does independently the UK does independently but I'd just say to him that the Five Eyes partners of the UK, Australia, Canada and New Australia, Canada and New intelligence gathering partners and the UK is better and more
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and the UK is better and more Yeah. A reassurance on and I also commend the Minister on her versatility and adaptability We all know the feeling well. My specific question is which will take place in Canada between the Secretary of State and the Secretary of State from the United States in light of the national Security strategy, which the United States What assessment has His Majesty's particularly as we go forward with over
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100 conflicts raging around the world? I'm grateful for
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I'm grateful for in in taking on a number of issues today. Can I say to him that the US strategy, Can I say to him that the US strategy, which I've seen earlier this week, is a matter for the US government, but self-evidently the United but self-evidently the United and support where there And as the noble Lord would And as the noble Lord would the Prime Minister has met with the Ukrainian president look at the challenges And I believe very strongly that where we increase defence expenditure in Europe and at the same time partners on key issues,
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It is for the Americans to It is for us to determine ours. My Lords, my noble.
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My Lords, my noble. Friend was on Committee when. The committee looked at detainee,
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The committee looked at detainee, detainee mistreatment detainee mistreatment That report led to the government of the day reviewing the day reviewing which led to the full force principles, which is very clear that we if it leads to extrajudicial killing, could he confirm that those principles understood not only by our security And can I show the house? I haven't been in Washington this week. The intelligence sharing
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Well, again, I'm grateful to me of my time on the Intelligence me of my time on the Intelligence and I'm grateful to him Now he's articulated Now he's articulated I say to him that he will I say to him that he will comment on the details but the UK will commit and retain its
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but the UK will commit and retain its legal responsibilities in that field. My Lords, when the government. Took the political decision to recognise the Palestinian state in the Israeli government said at that reducing or stopping intelligence Has the government made damage that that would give to the UK?
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Well, I believe that we have common interests with the Israeli government interests with the Israeli government and we should try to maintain What they do and how they What they do and how they I think it's important that we have and information sharing with and information sharing with and the Five Eyes is But self-evidently, where But self-evidently, where other parties would wish to share And I would hope that to recognise a Palestinian state does not impact upon the ability
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should they exist. My Lord, I thank
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My Lord, I thank for the clarifications he's made for the clarifications he's made Can the noble Lord, the Minister, Can the noble Lord, the Minister, confirm that the United Kingdom the Caribbean area so as to the Caribbean area so as to the scourge of the drug
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I can assure the noble the area does fall within the area does fall within in this particular question. And there are a number of areas And there are a number of areas particularly with is working in partnership, looking at how we can support the reduction of drugs, we can support the reduction of drugs, the reduction of gang activity the reduction of gang activity between overseas territories And we have a very strong partnership with the United States on And where there are we are even now looking at how we can support those overseas territories, particularly who have a British
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to ensure that we take that fight Question Lord Clement-Jones.
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Question Lord Clement-Jones. My Lords. I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.
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Standing in my name on the Order Paper. The government takes abuse of online advertising abuse of online advertising distribute malware All social media platforms All social media platforms driving out fraudulent activity the largest social media to address fraudulent But I say to the noble Lord, more can be done and further in the government's
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for which I am responsible. My Lords, we are facing
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My Lords, we are facing sophisticated AI generated scams. Yet despite what the Minister has said, Ofcom's updated roadmap has Ofcom's updated roadmap has on the Codes of Practice for on the Codes of Practice for meaning new online safety protections are unlikely to be fully enforced until 2027. My Lords, given the rapid what steps is the government as a designated as the fraud Minister? As I understand it, my the vital protections provided and will the government action against all scam advertising
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is included in the fraud strategy I'm grateful to the noble Lord.
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I'm grateful to the noble Lord. I met with Ofcom recently, that he's laid before that he's laid before but that Ofcom themselves wish to but that Ofcom themselves wish to they can bring into power that I will be producing early in the new I will be producing early in the new The previous government had We've updated that it's taken but the fraud strategy will look of which the emergence of AI AI will be one key aspect And I hope that I can in relatively short order in the New Year.
The fraud strategy for consideration, for discussion and for implementation.
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Does the Minister agree with me? One of the things. That's becoming increasingly
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That's becoming increasingly there are a number of huge there are a number of huge huge numbers of almost huge numbers of almost Is the new fraud strategy going some of those international some of those international and is the is the noble my noble friend, the Minister liaising with some of those countries where we know that that is a really
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I'm grateful to my In the. The government has already signed with The government has already signed with a United Nations resolution against fraud. We're hosting a conference We're hosting a conference in Vienna to try to bring action on the very issues that my noble action on the very issues that my noble friend has mentioned independently. I went to Nigeria in April of I went to Nigeria in April of with the Nigerian government The right. My right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister has and we're intending to try to expand It's absolutely vital that we to tackle areas where very often against the will
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My Lords. Fraud is not falling
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Fraud is not falling that have been put into it so far. The NCAA, the National Crime Agency, estimates that 67% of estimates that 67% of And it says, and I quote, the key facilitator of the key facilitator of and social media platforms and telecoms and social media platforms and telecoms are the main routes that fraud comes to this country from overseas to by the noble Lady, Lady Jones. At the moment, banks pick up the full cost of reimbursing fraud victims and banks do have a key role in preventing fraud, but they are not the facilitators of it.
Surely the time has come to and telecom companies pay their share of the losses that people
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the use of from their It. I'm grateful to the noble Lord.
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I'm grateful to the noble Lord. He is absolutely right that the banks are effectively subsidising fraud results effectively subsidising fraud results and are leading to of fraud that has taken place. of fraud that has taken place. But as he is also right, that which is around 44% of all which is around 44% of all telecom and telecommunication companies. We've recently established a brand new fraud charter with telecom companies, which I believe will, over the next 12 months, reduce fraud via telephone communication significantly.
In the fraud strategy, we will be for reducing fraud through and also through such as Facebook and others, which are a significant gateway to fraud. He's absolutely right, but matters as part of
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Does the Minister agree with me? Sorry. Could the Minister tell
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Could the Minister tell is doing around protecting I've been contacted by I've been contacted by people who found themselves caught up in money laundering. caught up in money laundering. They sent a message saying could The money is exchanged equitably The money is exchanged equitably but then it's then and found out to be money laundering, an offence they can never remove from their from their from their history. So is it is there a piece of work that
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do around protecting young The noble Lord is absolutely right. It's an area where the government has It's an area where the government has accepted that there is a challenge. There are resources going into There are resources going into particularly targeted for them to avoid money laundering. for them to avoid money laundering. I visited a scheme, as it happens, in my home area of North where educational opportunities where educational opportunities by regional organised with students to explain works and how they can become victims of money laundering without they're involved in money laundering.
So there's a great educational opportunity and we're trying to work through that.
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But self-evidently I will continue Government ensure. That the new fraud strategy leads
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That the new fraud strategy leads cases that are properly cases that are properly and will the government make and will the government make be judged not by the volume but by the conviction secured but by the conviction secured opened and the charge is made?
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The noble Lady is absolutely right. And one of the things, again, trailing the fraud strategy trailing the fraud strategy is to ensure that we have better criminal justice outcomes for investigations. justice outcomes for investigations. We're just starting. And again, this will become has produced a better journey has produced a better journey both in terms of reporting, and getting to criminal justice outcomes. and getting to criminal justice outcomes. There's a real wish by the National and the Serious Fraud Office to look at how we can bring criminals to justice.
And there's already been taking place where we've seized assets, brought people to court, It's absolutely vital that place possible for fraudsters to operate. And that means not just protection, in telecom and telecommunication but also putting an element of
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to ensure that they end up behind Lord Soames the Minister
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Lord Soames the Minister the regulators often periods to do nothing and the general
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periods to do nothing and the general public want action, not consultation. Yes. I think it's important I say this to my
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I think it's important I say this to my noble friend in the spirit of camaraderie, that we get these things right, that we get these things right, and sometimes there are issues which There is a wish. If he's referring to the question which the noble Lord Clement-Jones raised, there is a wish for Ofcom to get it right, and there is a wish for them they do is legally secure and I want to give them But the direction of that fraudulent adverts are taken down, and that fraudulent adverts
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the very issues that other noble Researched by the.
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Researched by the. UK Safer Internet Centre half of 8 to 17 year olds half of 8 to 17 year olds with 79% of that age group having come across online scams at least monthly. across online scams at least monthly. What action is the impact of scamming
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the impact of scamming who appear to be particularly at risk? I think there are two areas Number one is education. All of us are the first port and that means we, all of need to know to watch out and to watch out for what those And that goes back to, again, the noble Lords point We need to ensure that we into into the curriculum But actually, it's not just us who have to have a role in stopping scams.
It ultimately is the state to track down the scammers, to put protective measures in And that goes back to us ensuring and the platforms very clearly taking so that young people in particular are not drawn into what would end up being a cost to them and very damaging to their mental health as well as their financial health.
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Fourth oral question My Lords, I beg leave
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My Lords, I beg leave Standing my name on the Order Paper.
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Standing my name on the Order Paper. Oh, I've not finished yet,
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Oh, I've not finished yet, The Home Office is committed regarding the intelligence regarding the intelligence Police for the Aston Villa match to ensure full independent scrutiny. The Home Secretary has commissioned His Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, Fire and Rescue Services to inspect how police forces in England and Wales provide risk assessment advice with an initial report Tel Aviv versus Aston Villa match.
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My Lords, I admire my Particularly considering
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Particularly considering But my Lords, he will the decision of the Safety the decision of the Safety the Maccabi fans coming to but it seems to have been but it seems to have been evidence from the West In the first case, it relied on In the first case, it relied on them about their experience in which the Dutch police and it seemed to have a zoom and unmonitored zoom call. Then, My Lords, a football actually turned out never to be played.
And there is the thinking And third, my Lords at the Home Affairs Select Committee only a few days ago, the West Midlands Police Jewish community supported the ban. My Lords, that was a mistake and My Lords, I think we've there is considerable of the leadership of force and I would say to the government, I understand all these reports
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my Lords, I think action I'm grateful to to my noble friend. Let me say to him, first Let me say to him, first The police and Crime Commissioner for to the people of the West to the people of the West And the Chief Constable of to the Police and Crime to the Police and Crime I say this genuinely, locally I say this genuinely, locally or not they wish to take In the light of those interesting what we have done as the Home Office and what the Home Secretary has done, is to ensure that on the 27th of November, we have asked for an urgent report on the intelligence received that my noble friend has mentioned, and we've asked to have that done via His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, and we've asked for it to be done for us by the 31st of December so that we can get to the bottom of what was said and what information led to what was said.
And I think, if I may, it's the outcome of the report that I comment in detail on any that have been made around this. And separately, the Home Affairs at this issue and will produce The my.
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Lord, my Lord, my Lords. Was based on fake evidence.
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Was based on fake evidence. But it's not just a local matter. I've made a list of I've made a list of this Prime Minister has said, I quote, we will not tolerate anti-Semitism we will not tolerate anti-Semitism But they do. He does more so than any other government. He does more so than any other government. I remember in recent years, it's time the police that they should not prioritise the supposed interests of violent, unreasonable, anti-Israel politicians and mobs over the peaceful majority.
Whether it's football or protests.
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Well, let me, in refute exactly what refute exactly what This Prime Minister is committed to tackling anti-Semitism, to tackling anti-Semitism, and to making sure that we do And he's doing so in a way And he's doing so in a way allows for people who and the performance of the Israeli state and the performance of the Israeli state to give their protest in a peaceful way. And if she looks at the Police we're putting in a range of where they impact upon the community, of whatever community in a particular way.
But I say to her now that she's and I accept those issues, which is why we've asked Inspectorate to look as well as the specific allegations that my noble friend has referred to, so that we can look at whether we can
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group assessments in the areas My conservative. Lord Woodley to to the Minister,
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Lord Woodley to to the Minister, for police leaders in the West for police leaders in the West As the noble Lord has said, with As the noble Lord has said, with they have lied, lied to they have lied, lied to Basically, they have yielded to to use footballing parlance, if I may, how can the noble Lord, the Minister, have any confidence in and Assistant Chief Constable O'Hara,
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as Nick Timothy has said Yeah. I'm grateful and Any suggestion that intelligence Any suggestion that intelligence engagement led by Westminster, was anything other than was anything other than would be a matter of great concern. But I hope he will accept that. The Home Secretary has understood that The Home Secretary has understood that concern and has commissioned a report, and I think it is fair and proper and I think it is fair and proper of that report before we take And I refer him back to my earlier answer.
When the Chief Constable and they are accountable to And a very significant step for certainly before we've had
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in the report, we've commissioned. My Lord. My Lords. My Lords, we have
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My Lords, we have times now and it all seems to be coming back to bad intelligence being be coming back to bad intelligence being leading to bad policy decisions. The Minister has said that The Minister has said that Can he assure us that we will be Can he assure us that we will be so we can make sure this is not repeated? That is the essential thing. Can we have assurances that we
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in the future so that Yeah. First of all, just Lord on the announcement yesterday Lord on the announcement yesterday of his of his retention in I think I've said already, I think I've said already, that the Home Office has It's commissioned a report It's commissioned a report surrounding the Maccabi Aston Villa match and Villa match and eloquently put to the House today. But we've also asked for a report on the wider issues that the noble Again, I can comment, I could but I think it's better for the 31st of March that and the conclusions of
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with the House for comment, My Lords, the times has
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My Lords, the times has at the Birmingham Safety at the Birmingham Safety and that UEFA advised that the Villa Is my noble friend the Minister Is my noble friend the Minister can he urgently write whether they did attend whether they did attend either online or in person,
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offered about the viability of the game. I'm grateful to my noble friend.
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I'm grateful to my noble friend. I hope I can help her by and this is my understanding and this is my understanding is that UEFA were not directly but were involved in but were involved in regarding the admission of fans. Now, what those wider discussions were, the Home Office was not party to. the Home Office was not party to. But again, I hope that which I've already indicated to my will examine that, and the policing Minister herself Affairs Select Committee that around the role of the Safety events of national
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And again, whether we have on those matters will be My Lords, the. Obviously I think Lord
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Obviously I think Lord To raise this. Issue because I become confused. About the source of intelligence.
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About the source of intelligence. And the quality of it particularly because the outcome particularly because the outcome from visiting the UK and stopped from particularly at the moment, particularly at the moment, Of course, this is a two part process. The police provide the intelligence and the Sports Safety Committee I'm not sure who's looking and the juxtaposition between safety committee banned away supporters. So would it be possible for at least in writing, when that happened? And who's looking into that them and also by the safety committee?
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I understand that again, Police Force area and the police and Crime Commissioner that they are Commissioner that they are review into what happened They're undertaking their own review. They're undertaking their own review. We have commissioned a review We have commissioned a review look at the issues surrounding including the Safety Advisory Group, including the Safety Advisory Group, and we're commissioning a report for the 31st of March on the wider issues of the Safety Advisory Group and how we can improve that performance in future.
I've heard what my what but I think if he'll again let me, When we have information And self- evidently, if noble they can do if they wish the 31st of March report They can do, and I have undoubtedly comments on both of those to
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My Lords, that concludes Any member wishing to leave
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Any member wishing to leave Yeah.
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Yeah. Lords. We now come to an instrument We now come to an instrument Immigration Skills Charge
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Immigration Skills Charge 2025 Lord Hanson of Flint. I beg to move the motion standing
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I beg to move the motion standing This motion be agreed to. As many as of that opinion will say. Content the country content. The contents have it. And before we come to the statement, I should remind the House that noble Lords should not refer to any specific cases currently before the courts, and that they should exercise caution cases that might subsequently in order not to prejudice Questions. In the statement made on Tuesday 9th of
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My Lords. This has been a long
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This has been a long a series of events that have the government has finally taken the government has finally taken the National Inquiry into the National Inquiry into I will not recount the absolute horrors Noble Lords will be well Noble Lords will be well The sentencing remarks from the appalling and vile abuse It is shameful that it took the government so long to get where they are today. It was all the way back in January, by these benches for the government The government at that time, smearing those urging In one of the numerous become a mainstay of The Home Secretary then be a full national inquiry, and it has taken us until appointed and the terms of This is deeply regrettable.
The government has appointed Lady Longfield, to chair the inquiry. Obviously she is a is. She is currently a Labour she will be resigning the Labour whip. But really, really is the noble Lord. The Minister, satisfied that for chair will have the support Not only this, but in her her role as chair of the Police it states that Zoe Billingham is She is one of three that So, My Lords, two out of three of the inquiry are directly So does the noble Lord.
The Minister think that sends It is clear to me that in the independence of the inquiry. This is even more important given have already signalled their So can the noble Lord. The Minister, absolutely will not shy away from investigating the links between and the mass rape of young girls? That is the crux of the matter. It is the deliberate cover to fears of racism that white girls being ignored the authorities that were The inquiry cannot lose sight of that. The terms of reference that that they will only until the date of and that it will not This makes it seem like these where the only concern is that we But my Lords, it is still happening.
How will the inquiry, address the concerns that young girls are still being abused and raped by gangs of men of mainly Pakistani origin? And finally, we still do not know and what criteria will be So can the noble Lord, the Minister will determine which local and how they will ensure and officials are not
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I look forward to what the noble Lord My Lords, earlier this year, Parliament discussed Baroness Parliament discussed Baroness of group based child sexual Her report brought her Her report brought her the issues around the appalling and the actions that need and the actions that need these execrable acts do not happen again, not least because government and other not least because government and other public bodies will do the right thing at the time to protect these children and hold the perpetrators to account.
And from these benches, this Many of the victims have said that they feel the communications with including proposals earlier candidates for the role of chair. All the survivors and victims and scandals repeat exactly If you don't work with us, which is distressing So can I ask the Minister what steps that the Home Secretary's choice the noble Lady Baroness survivors to overcome any I do appreciate that she the Labour Party for but the concerns of victims Despite the victims and our skills and commitment of Lady Longfield.
The statement talks about This is correct. As with the infected blood scandal, the Hillsborough disaster its government and public bodies about failures and a natural So whilst the inquiry will to the exploitation I would like to ask what plans the government the findings are not just but will they be fully embedded practice of every government And how will the government judge and the softer cultural audit and those that will come will change how children and is also truly supportive from the first to The terms of reference outlined in However, can I gently warm the Minister or recent inquiries have equally but as the detail of how it's going the survivors and victims have changed a bit and their So what will the government do to to ensure that that does not happen I have some other specific questions.
The statement says the government for information sharing Can the Minister say of the bills currently for example, the Children and Wellbeing Bill or the Crime and Policing Bill? That's interesting because the noble Lord, the Minister and I had a debate about another piece of legislation I do hope that that might be the case. And is it also possible Might just be crime Or the victims and courts bill that to change the law to ensure that And the Minister is very clear is the law and it must be that an advice to the CPS must be charged with rape The proposed changes to will be welcomed from these benches.
My noble friend Lady this problem with Lord so it's good to see that And very. Finally, I was slightly bemused by statement from DWP on safeguarding. I think it might have been quite helpful to actually call it what this is,
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the Child Grooming Gangs Inquiry. And I'm grateful to both noble Lords
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And I'm grateful to both noble Lords and Lady Brinton for their comments. Can I just start with the noble Can I just start with the noble I hope he wants this inquiry to I hope he wants this inquiry to I hope he will give us a fair wind. And we want to look at not And we want to look at not the last 15 months or 16 And what we have done in a clear inquiry with a £65 million budget, with a three year definitive target Now, to achieve some outcome, create further victims and we tackle the underlying causes allowed to operate in this but particularly, as is mentioned here, to examine particular that has been an aggravating factor in some of those particular instances.
So I hope he will give it a fair wind. He's asked about the membership the noble Lady Baroness Longfield I say to him, first of all, that a recommendation from the noble the noble Lady Baroness Longfield former chief executive That was a recommendation the Home Secretary to and Baroness Casey has chosen to the noble Lady Baroness commissioner for six years. She's devoted her life she's worked with charities, and she's worked with prime to deal with these issues Zoe Billingham herself is and is currently a chair brings deep expertise the chief executive of a local authority and has supported survivors of attacks and victims of so their party membership in the appointment of either individual.
Their experience, skills He's asked about the scope of the inquiry, and I think it is really important that we do say that the inquiry's are clear on a number of vital issues. It is focussed on child sexual It will consider explicitly including their ethnicity and religion, and it will look at specifically have failed to properly And it will do so without fear or favour. And I hope that answers again Baroness Brinton has also covered He says what? Why does this only start from now in terms of what's happened in the past? It happens what's happened in the past, because what happened in the past is subject to review and investigation.
He will know that it's not indeed Baroness Casey to look that is, for the police to the CPS and to take any action This is a historical examination, That is for the police. He's also asked, what are we doing now? Well, he spent many a pleasant hour with me on the police and crime bill, and he will know that this government of recommendations around which if I was being I would say his government in the two and a half recommendations lying on their desks.
We've put those things into play, and he knows that we will continue in that bill to ensure that measures in place to tackle those issues. He's asked whether it will I can say to him now that already said that she will begin to case because we did indicate earlier and we will look according to the issue, and the terms of reference are subject to consultation, which again goes to point. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, has mentioned for the 31st The noble Lady asked about We want victims engaged and to feel part of this process.
That is why one of happened this week since the appointments, is that Lady Longfield and survivors this week issues and how we take She wants to test, as we do, the terms of reference by the 31st of March And that is an important part of And again, we have engaged with victims. And one of the reasons getting a chair in place until now is that we've had to engage with we have their view on the proposed chair. And the noble Lady Baroness Casey the noble Lady Baroness Longfield And the first thing the chair Baroness Casey this week is to The noble Lady has asked a number of other points around the the state failing.
She will know that we is colloquially called which is going through Houses and that is an important way to pretend to prevent systemic failures in the future. She has also mentioned a number to the recommendations that We've accepted a number of We've looked at the issue of the audit. She's mentioned whether be brought forward and needs legislation. We're looking currently at legislation and in what But I give her the assurance at rectifying that gap by legislation, if need be, at the earliest She's mentioned, and I welcome that are being operated on My right hon.
Friend the Transport friend in this House, Lord Hendy, will be legislating shortly Community and Empowerment dangerous loophole in and we hope that will be The noble Lady will know the issue of child sexual and whether those children are And what we do with that. And while the law has protected abusers from the consequences of their crimes, it's too often punished victims. And we are looking again in the Crime and Policing Bill to disregard offences related to prostitution in particular, which we discussed earlier this week.
And also I just say to the noble Lady the noble Lord Davies of Gower has A couple of months back, we launched Operation Beacon Port, which is reviewing closed cases already flagged 1200 cases for 200 of those cases are high There are evil men out there They will not be sleeping because they will know that will follow that evidence, and will ensure that they are brought to justice. And we will look at continually against others who are before I think there have been failings.
Let's let's not get away from this. There have been failings, but grappling with those issues is and I hope that all members of to successfully participating the terms of reference are finally and that when we get reports Going back to what the noble I think it's fair that we say we have to judge those recommendations at the time. That will be three years hence, but that doesn't mean we're And it also doesn't mean the history of where this that we haven't accepted the noble Baroness Casey previously.
So I hope that the House
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today and help make it My Lords. The core group in this will of course, The core group in this will of course, be the survivors and ask what happened and how and what can we do to prevent it happening in the future. do to prevent it happening in the future. Yet the survivors group, it seems, is to be wound down this month is to be wound down this month I read in the press today will survivors have as a group? That's my first question.
And secondly, what funding will they I'm not talking about advocacy because I don't think it's that sort of inquiry, but they will need to have the help
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themselves and to make submissions Yeah. I'm grateful to the noble Lord, They have different They have different different views on what the noble Baroness Casey the noble Baroness Casey Lady Longfield are trying meet with a panel of meet with a panel of best we can involve best we can involve the process of both the appointment and the terms of reference. Now, again, it's really continue to express their views. We've allocated around £3.6 million this week to support but also a portion of that resource is to assist survivors and to help them to be able to work with way that is not a finite sum.
It may be reviewed at a later million that we put in place is the prosecution of historical perpetrators and to assist victims in this process, which I know is extremely And the whole purpose of what is I'm sure the noble Lord This is to not retraumatize
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My Lord, many of this inquiry were victims this inquiry were victims They were abused by those who were supposed those who were supposed The inquiry is going to systemic failures in the system, systemic failures in the system, and it's going to go on for three years. So could the noble Lord, the Minister, So could the noble Lord, the Minister, assure us that those who are so-called at the time, and were responsible for effectively will not be allowed to
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And that includes the three years The noble Lady invites me to
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The noble Lady invites me to the inquiry might say in any What I will say to hopefully What I will say to hopefully is already going to look at is already going to look at If there are emerging issues, Lady Longfield, to report Lady Longfield, to report They are beginning to look of Oldham as a first priority. There may be more that I suspect that if there are lessons to be learned during the course of the inquiry, such as those that they will be drawn to But I think it fair that we have set a remit and a scope for the inquiry.
I think it's fair that we let with the guidance of Baroness Casey, the noble Lady, to examine those issues. But self-evidently, if somebody duty has led to of individuals and has failed they should be held to account for that. What I can't say to the noble Lady
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But that's part of I welcome
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I welcome welcome the appointment of the noble Lady, Lady Longfield, as the chair of She's got the requisite She's got the requisite Like others. I regret that it took so long, but I understand that it's but I understand that it's I just have one question three. It's great that the inquiry has It's great that the inquiry has but in that time I wonder if there friend to update Parliament on because where there is no communication, there's a vacuum and vacuums So I think the more open
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I'm grateful to my noble friend. I think there are two I think there are two Number one, I personally, as Minister, will have a responsibility will have a responsibility the budget and timescale of the inquiry. Number one. So again, in the past some inquiries have said some inquiries have said three years and it's taken six years and recommendations six years and recommendations My first job as the Minister now to the three year the budget and we hold to on those matters for what I think it's for And the chair, in my view, if meet with the chair other matters I've just mentioned.
But if the chair wishes to draw attention, then I'm sure that will be done. But I don't want to restrict to doing things that it is But self-evidently, the chair wishes to report to Ministers, it would be for Ministers both Houses of Parliament in due course. For the reasons my friend has mentioned.
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My Lords, may I thank questions on the statement today. I've looked at I've looked at Devolution and Empowerment Bill, and I welcome the provisions that deal with the out of area taxi provisions, with the out of area taxi provisions, as indeed to do many taxi However, those provisions seem to However, those provisions seem to the perpetrators of these crimes were deemed to be fit and proper persons deemed to be fit and proper persons to operate private hire vehicles How is the noble Lord? The Minister assured under
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and Empowerment Bill that this will Well, the provisions in our Department of Transport provisions our Department of Transport provisions led by my noble friend Lord Hendy, but they're based on but they're based on made to the government by We believe, and this ultimately will We believe, and this ultimately will to hold to account that those changes in the regulations will ensure that there's the regulations will ensure that there's greater control over the allocation of licences and the control of licences.
But ultimately it is for for him with the House's support It's been identified as a gap. We've tried to close that gap and again, there may be further lessons that come out of the inquiry from Baroness Longfield and Baroness Casey supporting her, which may look at further the points of the noble But I hope that the the government's swift
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action on taxi licensing is welcome. My Lords. The the last paragraph of the statement
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The the last paragraph of the statement talks about that the chair and panel talks about that the chair and panel of an inquiry will shine a bright light on this dark moment in our history. They will do so alongside who have waited for too This inquiry is theirs, not What I want to know will there be them in the matters that sometimes Will the survivors whose inquiry? It is in the same question are asked from the official opposition? Really, without giving them to see what kind of legal These are traumatised people.
They've been violated. So from the start, a policy needs with the chair that they will So will the inquiry itself, because I'm afraid the three years not getting direction
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I'm grateful to the noble Right the £65 million that we've allocated the £65 million that we've allocated includes a range of issues to do And I think, if I may, I would And I think, if I may, I would and her two panel members and with to detail in due course how that to detail in due course how that We've allocated a budget for £65 but it's important they have back on on how that that And just again, for for the record, this this inquiry is going to look at historical and current failures in That's what it is about.
But again, as ever, the points current potential criminal
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If there are no further questions, Infected Blood Compensation Scheme Infected Blood Compensation Scheme Baroness Anderson of Stoke on Trent.
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Baroness Anderson of Stoke on Trent. My Lords, I beg to Lordships' House Lordships' House consider the Infected Blood Compensation Scheme Amendment Regulations 2025. Scheme Amendment Regulations 2025. Since the publication Inquiry's detailed report in May 2024, the government has worked to establish the Infected Blood Compensation Since the compensation Ipsa have contacted all infected people, registered with a support and made offers of over opened the service to infected people who have I am pleased with this progress the right direction toward delivering With Ipsa now moving towards opening and for the estates of deceased, In July, the Infected Blood Inquiry which made 15 recommendations on the design of the scheme.
We immediately accepted seven The regulations we are considering today will implement the five of those seven, which require legislation to achieve. The remaining eight to an ongoing public consultation, and the government expects to bring to implement the further changes The regulations at hand today show that the government has to the inquiry's words on involving those impacted by this dreadful scandal. It is right that we accepted and I am pleased that we have been able to bring forward these regulations swiftly.
Hearing the voices of That is why the Chancellor announced infected blood compensation payments tax in cases where the original for compensation has sadly died I am pleased that we have and that just is not but reflected in the way I will now set out to the scheme in the regulations, which are a result of of some of the inquiry's recommendations. Regulation three responds to A and removes the 1982 start date meaning that anyone who was infected with HIV via infected blood or infected blood products before the 1st of November 1985 will be eligible for the scheme.
Regulation four makes changes recommendation eight B Its additional report set out. The time being taken to is disadvantaged disadvantageous to affected people who are They recommend that where sadly passed away during their compensation should The government has accepted and is going beyond extending the recommended between the 21st of May 24 Regulation six actions. The inquiry's recommendation for E, which recommends the government remove the need for applicants B to evidence their date of diagnosis.
The date of diagnosis has no of an individual's compensation. Therefore, making this change which will facilitate swifter Regulation seven implements relating to how severity of someone's hepatitis infection, where someone shows a level four diagnosis of hepatitis but no level three diagnosis, we are amending the scheme so that six years at level three prior This will uplift their overall and recognises that the burden of evidence should not fall on the claimant. In light of the inquiry's finding We have heard from that the use of effective treatment dates under the scheme does not reflect the lived experience of many victims, as not all infected people work after treatment for various reasons, including continued illness, illness or stigma, and that treatment much later than In line with the inquiry's Regulation nine rectifies this by removing the earnings floor on Exceptional Loss Award for financial loss to ensure that a route is available for infected people to present evidence the government recognises have been concerns raised about bereaved partners access to support scheme payments following the tragic loss of their spouse.
In response to these concerns nine A the government reopened to the infected Blood on the 22nd of October, and I'm grateful to devolved administration colleagues for their work in helping us make sure that we could achieve this so quickly. One of the key themes of the inquiry's for Ipsa to increase the speed with In order to achieve that, these ten delay delay by one calendar year. The transfer of Responsibility Scheme payments from IBS to Ipsa. This will allow Ipsa to focus to build an effective I am agreeing I am again grateful colleagues for their Outside of the inquiry's report, regulation 14 makes a number that the compensation and that its administration is improved.
These are minor corrections This compensation scheme is lives changed by unimaginable The regulations we are debating today are a direct response to and carry forward a sense of justice. We all, as members of share the sentiment that scandal should be at and that these regulations step in ensuring that scheme delivers for the people
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I beg to move. The question is that
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The question is that Firstly, may I thank. The noble Lord.
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The noble Lord. The Minister, for and going through things and going through things and also for being open about the whole scheme at other about the whole scheme at other times without even necessarily having But may I ask a couple of questions? Because there are areas be helpful to have clarification on. Firstly, is it correct that infected as children up to the age of 16, other than a £10,000 If the family of the deceased which is the same for adults.
And is it correct that there is no compensation for a lost life? And as parents are not can the noble aid the Minister clarify what they are
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and how that changes if their child Thank you, thank you Lord.
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Thank you, thank you Lord. Yeah, I. I'm grateful that the noble Lady, the Minister is keeping in touch about the Minister is keeping in touch about the regulations and not not just today, but from when we last but from when we last She won't be surprised to know from these benches are from these benches are And the main concern does the progress of There is clearly some movement, That is that is good news. However, it is still very, very victims because they haven't But the proposed arrangements seems to drift longer The noble Lady.
The Minister, knows that the real actually relate to the detail and specifically to changes that So I have and I apologise I have a series of questions So if the Minister can't reply I don't think that's the first The compensation proposals in 2022 and also which the government claims it's overridden by the work of It's worth remembering in the Francis Review of 2022 on page 127 at 10.3, he said I have further be taken when calculating compensation for any past payment one of the preceding trusts and charities.
Put simply, all payments were ex gratia, were without any admission of liability, were never intended to be compensation. In any event, the inquiry the full detail of support be burdensome to all because of lost or inaccessible records. End quote. This is really worrying, the moment is the government delay compensation and to have been found guilty of evasion, then to argue that they until after they've read the final report, which is what happened under and then fix eligibility to said ex-gratia scheme set up as late as 2017, which government advisers recommended past payments should be discounted.
There was a specific argument but now it appears that everyone which conveniently then the schemes were established have lost their right to suffering or mental I realise this is highly if the Minister could help explain why these changes are happening to Sir Brian's initial report, his subsequent report I also want to ask a bit The special category mechanism details in response to Sir Brian Langstaff scathing analysis in his report is making statements in Parliament, only to row back on them without and specifically on the special category mechanism.
I am referring here to in May 2025, from Sir Brian's he said living infected people people who are receiving SCM or received them before they be eligible for this award. That is the end of the quote. The above means that only schemes would be automatically Another quote living infected people SCM or equivalent payments criteria and if they met them, End quote. But once again, there is no mention here of the estates of the deceased here, and this is clearly only for meaning that every dead child or adult who died before the SCM was introduced will have no right of for actual injuries to them.
I know that there are some discussions and I understand that initially, no, none of the groups were But since then there have now but not to include worth of experience of things going wrong. Seems to me to be questionable. There are then some for the SCM that I won't go through here, but I think the Minister needs to group of victims who are extremely Some of them are actually outraged, and they now feel that this is worse, that they are only allowed regarding the SCM and And this seems to us infringing human rights for these victims.
I'm not expecting the noble Lady I think the big message that I would like the government to hear one month where to rebuild trust between the victims, things are changing that they are not Please. Will the Minister review this with
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My Lords, I want to start welcoming the progress that Blood Compensation Authority Blood Compensation Authority in delivering payments and pay tribute to the work of Sir Brian Langstaff and all those involved and all those involved Inquiry and its additional report. This report made a number This report made a number to improve the compensation scheme, and the government has broadly and the government has broadly five of which are given effect by After the catastrophic failures that it is vital that justice and fairly to all who were affected.
I also want to take this Lady opposite for her letter which addressed some of discussed this matter on I'm glad to see, in response the steps the government to ensure that those who for compensation are being identified, the noble Lady has confirmed that the order recommended by In the other place, I want to His Majesty's Opposition There are no substantive of the government or even of the previous government. However, we cannot forget of the most egregious the infliction collectively upon thousands of people by the state.
It is paramount that we have and redress compassionately, We support the five recommendations are accepting and legislating for today, and I welcome that they go some way The changes before us the 1982 start date for removing the need for C or B to evidence their which does not have of an individual's compensation, and removing the earnings floor on Financial Loss supplement for thereby creating a route present evidence on their We welcome the noble confirmation that lifting the HIV start date means that it will not matter when a victim was infected with HIV, provided the infection arose from or blood products administered However, may I ask the Minister to confirm that this also applies to those who who only discovered or were only informed much later that they were infected, but where the likely cause was Similarly, can she assure the committee that no one who should be eligible will fall through the cracks because of particularly those infected records may have been We must ensure that no one is denied the compensation they and I am sure that this is something that the government will wish to avoid.
The Minister will also be from those deliberately as part of clinical studies, the proposed level of compensation Will the noble Baroness, the Minister, commit to working with Sir Brian to review whether that component is appropriate? My Lords, when we debate this matter, on 4th November, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton and I raise and the risk that the government could be giving out compensation with one hand and clawing it back with the other. The noble Baroness, the Minister, said in response to our concerns she would seek to arrange officials to discuss this issue further.
Can I ask the noble Lady if she and what recommendations Can the noble Lady confirm blood compensation payments were made directly to victims or through estates are entirely exempt from inheritance tax, regardless of the circumstances The noble Baroness also when we last discussed this matter, can she give us an update the government have made he has made and whether any of And can the noble Baroness, the Minister, please assure the House debating today will not and swiftness of repayment to victims, given that they will likely impact As the Minister in we have moved from to the exponential phase of delivery, rather than having yet more the government must now focus on and the scaling up process with the urgency of the situation.
Finally, my Lords, as we have repeatedly many victims and families still an issue identified again in Sir The Minister and the Other place has given an undertaking that transparency will be at the heart of any Will the Minister commit to publishing and to working with the ICA and accessible plain English guidance, so that those who may be rights and can access My Lords, I want to close by reiterating again that we support these regulations, but would welcome clarity from that I have raised for the steps that she to provide some redress We appreciate the need to proceed but we must not lose sight of that the process can be as quick That, my Lords, is those victims and their families who have already been failed
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face no further injustice here. My Lords, I want to thank all I say as is our want, when we are talking as is our want, when we are talking for the points they've for the points they've and for their continued representation of the infected blood community of the infected blood community There are many in your have consistently ensured that the voices of the infected and affected community of the infected and affected community are given a voice in this chamber.
I particularly want to pay tribute Lady Brinton, Lady Campbell, who I was delighted to see week and is definitely Lady Featherstone, who has ensured And of course, lady, as their for the victims of this scandal and their generosity of time to of such issues has been incredibly, I'd also like to thank my for how constructive we have worked for a community that needs to faith and trust in government and it is the onus on all of make sure that they know that My Lords, I'm going to look of the noble Baroness Lloyd Brinton.
Obviously, as she highlighted, I think it may be useful for us actually to have a meeting with officials, which I will invite all of those who have participated today to to attend. But I will also reflect on the points. I'm right in advance of the meeting. My Lords, we're here today first and I will prioritise the issues raised on the regulations in my response. I'm aware of the other points and I'll do my best to address those too. But obviously I will reflect on In terms of the specific I'd like to start by the points raised by the noble Lady Baroness Finlay.
These are incredibly important points, and she did worry me when When she gave me the detail in advance. And I had worried that there So to clarify for the record, Someone infected as a child social impact, autonomy, care, and basic financial loss They do not receive for the years where they However, they will still financial loss award for the years where they were or will be aged 16 or over, and I hope that gives And with regards to of when an infected child had passed away, a bereaved parent, a parent social impact and autonomy.
Awards based on severity that that child had. This will not change child was when they passed away. The awards to parents are higher where their child's infection has caused, or is expected to cause This includes those infected four and five hepatitis infections. They would also be the likely estate under the under All such would likely be the recipient of whatever injury, social impact, autonomy, care and financial loss so there is still a level of compensation, but I will make sure that I also write to the noble Lady so she has a copy I just want to touch on is helpful in the context of our prioritising those nearing because community members have highlighted how people to start their compensation claim.
Nearing the end of life means a person has been told by a doctor or medical professional that they might have This could be due to any It does not need to be caused directly by an infection from contaminated blood.
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With regards to previous payments. Intervene. The noble Lady has said that this is The noble Lady has said that this is the case for those who Will the same rules be applied Will the same rules be applied nearing the end of their life,
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Many are dying now. As I believe that to be the case,
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As I believe that to be the case, I will confirm to given the issues that we're talking about, and I would not want to mislead anybody, but I believe that is also because With regards to previous they are all pre Only payments from the 31st of March count towards compensation calculations. No payments from an r r compensation. But I will again in our conversations write to the noble Lady in terms Now noble Lady asked very specific points about the system, but I want to confirm, while I recognise the level of community concern about how the scheme considers and recognises the impacts captured the matter of how the scheme people for the impacts that make someone eligible for SCM consultation and further regulations.
The consultation proposes that anyone currently receiving special category, mechanism or equivalent payments through the Infected Blood Support Screen schemes would now be automatically eligible Everyone who receives SCM payments should have been contacted by ICA already, as part of the cohort of infected people registered with a support scheme. I hope that gives a level of reassurance, asked for more specific questions Moving on to inheritance tax. Well, the noble Lady will appreciate that. Such was the statement from the Chancellor that no such meeting was required because the Chancellor there were private conversations happened about this.
Reflecting on both the conversation about the issues raised in your Lordships' House and in the other place Representations were reflected that in the budget. And I am very, very So there was no such meeting in terms but proved to be unnecessary. I hope nobody could appreciate that In terms of the inheritance tax. Though raised by the noble I think it would be helpful if I can just outline what we've actually agreed to. I know that the issue of inheritance tax policy has been widely raised by noble, by many members of your Lordships' House and in the community, Compensation payments made under capital gains and inheritance tax.
This is in line with tax exemptions for the first and second interim payments. At the budget. The government announced to Inheritance Tax disregard will be made to ensure that infected blood from inheritance tax in cases where the original infected or affected person eligible for compensation has sadly died before the compensation is paid. I know this was an important issue and I'm pleased that able to listen and make this change. The changes mean inheritance be automatically applied to the estate of the first beneficiary affected person's estate, for example, this would mean that who inherits their and then dies would not charge on the compensation they inherit.
This will apply to or after the 26th of November, 2025. The government has also made changes to the rules on gifting The change means that of compensation payments in which to give some or all without an inheritance tax charge. This applies to gifts of compensation made on or after the 4th of December, 2025. Noble Lady Baroness Finn that no one should fall Noble Lady is absolutely right. It is working with those an evidence base where where And I think noble Lords would from the infected who are who have claims that some of the evidence base is going to become more challenging, and it is right that the that work with people to help support With regard to the Tyrone Urch review, we're still reflecting and I look forward to discussing on the recommendations and working and talking to because many of I will report back in due the changes to these regulations Where there are enhancements those will be retrospectively people who've already without them having to come forward again.
And we don't believe that at this point will slow anything down. With regard to the clear plan, noble Lords are aware this year I went to visit it. I met with their comms team. I think we can all agree that communication challenges I personally think having seen some of their new materials that they're using and the fact that they level of basic English standard now, as opposed to a level of science that that has made this much more accessible.
My Lords, we are talking about experiences and personal Comms is always going to be a challenge, but I want to put on record my thanks for both the women who are and they are overwhelmingly women who are answering the calls at the first instance, who are providing huge support, and for the the handlers that are based at ICA who are doing a very, very good job, having built an organisation year to deliver over £2 there is a long way to go, but My Lords, these regulations of the inquiry's recommendations and bring them into force as But I am very clear that this These regulations are only response to the inquiry's The consultation that not close until the 22nd of January, and I encourage all of those to ensure that your voice is part of and if there are problems in people being able to access the consultation, then please let us know.
And we will. And we are. We are making other mitigations,
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I would want to hear them. Thank you. Absolutely clear. The comment I was making was The comment I was making was which is a written one. It was about the fact that
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It was about the fact that was invited to attend Looking at the detail. But that has now been resolved.
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But that has now been resolved. Okay, I will explore. I will speak to officials and look I will speak to officials and look Many of the points raised today I look forward to discussing these Once the government has and published our response. In the meantime, I hope with these regulations committed to ensuring that to a group of people who
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My Lords, I beg to move here. The question is that
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The question is that As many as of that opinion Contrary, not content. Contrary, not content. The contents have it. We move now to the next business We move now to the next business wheelchair and community equipment
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wheelchair and community equipment My Lords, I'm very grateful to noble Lords who taking part in this debate, and I particularly want to Gerada who is making her maiden speech. She has, of course, been and chair of the Royal College of GPS. But if I can say so, more than that, an excellent GP and brilliant and it's a pleasure to I shall also inform the House of Alliance and also and my daughter Philippa works for backup, which supports people with spinal injury.
My Lords, the provision of wheelchair country for disabled people is, to The nub of the problem was described of December by the distinguished He was paralysed in a climbing accident illogical and incompetent many of He talked about the bureaucratic barriers, organisational inflexibilities of the services he encountered. I thought particularly telling for me were the words of a physiotherapist he quoted, who had been working cord injury for more than 20 years. Many of her clients are discharged in heavy manual wheelchairs person would struggle to push frequently.
They're the wrong type least are uncomfortable often, she said, people who have impaired upper limbs cannot push these wheelchairs themselves and become in some cases confined to their bed. Sometimes they develop complications and it lands them back in people wait at least ten months after let alone getting the wheelchair Unbelievably, some local wheelchair to assess a patient until So much, my Lords, for integrated care boards were established Now, Doctor Sage's experience, The Wheelchair Alliance has produced how inconsistent and under-resourced Over 50% of providers come and there are real worries regarding the financial frailty of many of them.
With a system that cost over long term value and reliability, there are no consistent no independent regulation, few clear reporting thoughts or making complaints. As a result, many disabled people delays in hospital discharge, loss of independence, social avoidable deterioration My Lord, it's the same dismal equipment embracing hoists, scrap rails, harnesses, medical beds and a wide The all party Group for Access recently reported on 60% 63% of carers, 55% that services are getting and the all party group concluded underinvested, fragmented Now, government policy is that care boards are share responsibility In practice, this means a fragmented, inconsistent delivery a landscape in which every without alignment or accountability, so the consequence is a postcode lottery, with 74% of equipment experiencing delayed to unavailability of community equipment.
And I would argue, and I'm looking forward to Baroness Brinton speech later on this, I would argue that community equipment the root of the challenges we face in providing community and social care. And the tragedy is it would if there was a will to do the government published the Wheelchair Quality Framework to assist integrated care boards and will deliver high quality provision. I have read it. It's welcome. But my Lords, the problem is, It lacks binding universal equitable provision across It does not address It does not mandate robust data reporting.
It lacks external oversight And so there is no statutory ensuring that every person in need or community equipment My Lords, what is required? I am absolutely convinced that underpinned by the appointment accountable to Ministers management and the remit of the director, Miles what that needs to be comprehensive vision of what and community equipment and the government should the all party group on access by introducing a dedicated community equipment Users must be around the top table a nationally defined eligibility and community equipment and removing the current postcode lottery, a legally guaranteed entitlement to appropriate equipment for all A long term funding rising costs of equipment, manufacturing, maintenance, energy, staff and supply user friendly service for wheelchair users and carers to report issues, requests, papers, make complaints or feedback We need to shift from to value based procurement, which is happening, my Lords, it ought to be extended to and my Lords for community National training standards for other professionals and suppliers I don't think anyone in this wheelchair and community The tragedy, as I've said before, If the government were prepared we're going to have a national, we're going to do what I've suggested in relation to have national leadership.
And I lost so many of and the blockages would be dealt with if this were really taken seriously. We all know what happens. It's not regarded as at the NHS or local authorities and many, many people suffer as a result.
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My Lords, I beg to move. My Lords. It's a great pleasure to follow
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It's a great pleasure to follow and I thank him firstly for and I thank him firstly for Secondly, for his work on Secondly, for his work on which he has been involved which he has been involved far longer than he cares to remember. And thirdly, for choosing to in which I should declare I trust his noble friend. The Minister will bear in mind which we look forward to hearing as we do the maiden speech of None of us will ever forget the prospect of addressing There may be issues which divide us, but the nerve wracking our own maiden speech say it into each I have no doubt that we will May Lords are referred It's much needed, not least because, the absence of a strategic approach on wheelchair services will be costing the NHS an awful lot of money, So in a little time I have now put three questions to the noble Baroness Minster.
She'll no doubt be of the Appg for Access to Disability Equipment Support that the Community to quote in crisis with Wheelchair Provision How which details the costly consequences including delays in hospital social isolation was the inevitable impact on mental health and, of course, avoidable deterioration a point the noble Lords made So would she agree with me And would she further agree that it is? If it is avoidable, then we are If we allow ICBs to is actually in the strategic big picture, a completely false the NHS and indeed And my third and last Economics setting out a few reports, the value of the wheelchair I would say saving that high to provide wheelchair users Will she undertake to put that My Lords, the current because it does not make economic sense.
That is why the noble Lords
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to be heard and deserves Yeah. Well said, well said.
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Well said, well said. My Lords. I declare my interest. As the conference. Chair of the National Chair of the National Providers for the last five years. Before that, for ten years Before that, for ten years for the British Healthcare representing manufacturers and suppliers representing manufacturers and suppliers of wheelchairs and assistive technology, upholding industry standards, and supporting purchasers My personal interest began as hand wheelchair bought through There was no assessment, training Much has improved in Yet the Wheelchair Alliance that wheelchair provision They said then that in some areas receive users in other areas may Inappropriately tailored equipment, a lack of training and or The report also showed how can improve lives Wheelchairs are not just medical devices, they're gateways to independence, inclusion, work, education and activity.
Poor provision restricts life chances, limits employment and can Pressures in wheelchair services are mirrored across community equipment, from hoists and specialist beds to The problems are systemic, The Appg for Access to the delays are driven by staff shortages, particularly of occupational therapists, inconsistencies between local authorities. At the root of this and blurred accountability between local authorities driving wide regional variation. The provision is fragmented so I also hope that the government will now drive forward a national strategy with clear structures for provision.
I agree with the Wheelchair care boards must adopt for wheelchair provision specification when commissioning services. I also support the call by the Appg for a dedicated national strategy alongside a dedicated DHSC This would ensure that and fairly met everywhere. I welcome the government's but it doesn't go nearly welcome increased use of But providers and users both budgets to ensure real giving users more control Fundamentally, what we need to address is balancing the costs of the provision of wheelchairs and community including preventing accidents, reducing the need for future enabling people whilst at the same time emotional well-being for many families.
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I'd like to thank the noble Lord, Lord hunt for introducing this debate, Lord hunt for introducing this debate, which I think is of very I am the main carer for my wife, I am the main carer for my wife, and I've calculated that we and I've calculated that we of equipment in order to lead She has a hospital bed to She has a hospital bed to a hoist to get her out of bed, a commode wheelchair to a turner to actually get a chairlift to take her downstairs, another turner to get her and the commode lift to in addition to a lifting wheel chair.
In addition, of course, special amputations in the in Because we can only get into at least three ramps in order This is a good story. We have what we want in order partly provided and partly But it brings to my mind the nightmare, the total nightmare of people or equipment breaks down emergency help in order And as we've already heard from there is very widespread who need equipment because and delays and, and bureaucracy. And I won't repeat those figures, but I was particularly moved and I think perhaps others have been moved who had cerebral palsy, and who including a hoist and home adaptations for two years, my Lord, for two years.
And during this time, to help him use a commode and drag him into the family putting them all at risk of injury. And when he needed surgery, to have a hoist in order To do do that. This equipment for Reece not only to support day to day activities, but also to ensure essential avoiding further complications. My Lords, such delays are The crisis impacting community sometimes years of delay for is systematic rather than And the main reason, as my Lord, but it is worth repeating, is that there is a lack Statutory responsibilities have left, which is creating inconsistent And moreover, confusion is responsible for this essential service.
an ageing population and the rise the demand for mobility aids of and it's vitally important now before the situation So I'd like to ask the Minister, for access to disability equipments, finding that there is no coherent commissioning accountable Minister for will the government now commit to
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overseen by a named Minister with Here are. My Lords. I rise for the first time with I rise for the first time with a certain amount of surprise until a certain amount of surprise until a GP these days and having me in a GP these days and having me in It's though a great honour, It's though a great honour, particularly in such a significant fairness and independence. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of the Shaws who so kindly introduced me.
I also thank the staff of this for their patience with my many So a little bit about me. I have Maltese heritage where my father worked as a doctor. My parents arrived in 1960s as proud citizens They taught me that hard work and a commitment to My father became a general His surgery was Patients have therefore been part As a young girl, dad would take me still bearing the scars Through him, I learnt truly involves not merely medicine, but community, continuity and compassion, and that the measure of a doctor but in how he or she cares.
I have now worked in the NHS beginning as a Saturday girl After completing my training in and I have lived and worked in Being well known in I recall my bicycle being stolen it won't happen again. Of course, it can never happen as my little Brompton has two armed Thank you officers. My patients have included the great, the good and given that bell occasionally the difficult. My very first patient was a young Decades later, I look after her To that continuity seems gives general practice its It allows us to see people not as isolated organs or diagnoses.
We are interpreters of experience, translators of suffering We observe how illness is linked with work, and the myriad This is not the soft end of medicine. It is its foundation, the undramatic, continuous care that underpins GPS carry out more than 300 million 80% of all NHS contacts, for Most of our encounters or admission or prescription. When general practice thrives, It prevents illness, supports self-care, protects hospitals from becoming And where the story of our My Lords, it is a privilege to be amongst the very few GPS admitted And now that I have completed my first surgery is And only one problem allowed.
My Lords, thank you very much. It's a great honour to and to have enjoyed a small sample of the immense knowledge It is, however, somewhat to talk about her in when it's clear possible to public achievements As we heard, Baroness Gerada trained in psychiatry in and then as a GP in South London, her career has consistently sat practice and mental health, gambling, harm and, critically, the well-being of From 2008 to 22, she founded and led the NHS Practitioner Health Service, now the largest confidential service for health supporting 50,000 clinicians From 2019 to 25, she helping to bridge policy, policy and patient experience Ever the entrepreneur, it seems now used by around and she continues to lead and serves as patron of And as if this was not all and president of the Royal College only the second woman to hold both roles.
But before I end, I must mention career high her stint In the show, she co-wrote which should perhaps have been would be in a time limited Baroness Gerada brings not only and exceptional contribution. We often file wheelchair services under health or social care. In reality, they are ought to be part of our national employment infrastructure. When services fail, people they lose their ability to contribute. The numbers tell this story starkly. Only around 53% of working age compared with 82% of non-disabled people.
And it's even wider for As a recent House of Lords report on the transition to work made clear, 1.2 million of people rely on a wheelchair and many more on other So when these systems fail, we're not we're talking about large parts the tools that make work possible daily life and work to the right equipment, mobility aids, home adaptations, When assessments take The consequences are immediate. Parliamentary inquiries have described As we've heard charities report people stuck at home with unsafe chairs or unable to start new jobs because their Services designed to gatekeepers to your ability to work.
This is an economic cost. We rarely acknowledge if someone because essential equipment the ripple effect hits They're less likely to earn, less likely to pay tax to more likely to draw on welfare, Independent assessments show provides substantial net fiscal This is not charity. It's investment in people, So what can we do? I would like to offer has a bigger role than it realises. Many employers have disability but too often the effort Rarely do companies engage determine whether someone Access to equipment, responsiveness or the basic accessibility Employers can change that.
They can partner with local They can use procurement to loan equipment, or minimum They can appoint a senior sponsor for responsible for everything from They can embed requirements occupational therapy assessments They can also use their dates slip because how many job offers fall away, how many days of work are lost They can work with unions staff networks and design When external equipment failures government and commissioners services as a marginal welfare Economic infrastructure outcomes but in terms of employment, Services should publish transparent data on waiting times for the assessments, delivery and repair broken down by At a minimum, we must know how many being delayed or denied work Access to work should be wheelchair and community Leaders such as Sara have long been arguing must mean more than good intentions.
It means designing systems This is the core point. Mobility, accessibility optional extras for many disabled people. They are the foundation that I learned this the hard way when but before my own experience, I learned from another the halls of this building My great aunt Felicity Lane-fox. If we're serious about closing boosting productivity we must put disability equipment
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not marooned on the edge Thank you.
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Thank you. My Lords. I'm delighted to be Congratulate the noble
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Congratulate the noble on an excellent maiden speech. As one would expect from As one would expect from and how wise of her to into the maelstrom of Although, of course, there Although, of course, there and plenty of opportunity As a former distinguished College of General we shall also expect save the NHS and solve the serious problems of general practice moving And so we all look forward I also congratulate the noble for securing this debate NHS wheelchair provision has been long delays and poor costs are driven up by inefficiencies and the false economy of supplying A cost effective strategy would improving assessments and investing to reduce downstream Now, one of the key criticisms First a postcode lottery.
Services vary significantly leading to inequitable, Second, long waiting times, leave users without mobility Third, poor suitability of equipment. Many wheelchairs provide a heavy, cumbersome or not tailored forcing some to buy their own. And fourth, limited user often fail to consider lifestyle needs, reducing independence and fifth or sixth inconsistent standards. NHS England acknowledges variation My Lords, putting it simply, NHS wheelchairs are dirt cheap heavy, ugly things which appal young The wheels may not detach. Car transport may be Now noble Lords have seen my sophisticated wheelchair parked around the corner, similar to the one of And.
But these wheelchairs are and their solid steel frame no doubt for 40 to 50 stone Americans. Now a replacement these aluminium and lightweight aluminium wheelchairs have been taking over That's what people want and need. But of course there is my Lords, I suggest, can be contained. If there was a national NHS strategy. First standardised provision nationally. Implement the NHS Wheelchair across all ICBs to reduce variation and appoint a senior NHS England Second, improve assessments Ensure assessments include.
Consider lifestyle, employment not just the medical factors wheelchair users to avoid Third, My Lords invest in provide wheelchairs that reducing downstream costs they get worse in the future and expand the personal health badges Fourth, streamline Centralised purchasing to Introduce rapid response maintenance and finally measure outcomes by Lloyd's. Not just costs. Track independence, employment and health outcomes as key performance indicators. The value added and use long term savings from better provision. My Lords, while upfront costs of better the long term strategy social care and productivity make Standardisation, user centred wheelchairs are the most impactful
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Yes. My Lords, I congratulate
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My Lords, I congratulate Heath on securing this important debate. Heath on securing this important debate. I also want to congratulate Lady And from these benches, we look forward to her many future contributions. to her many future contributions. The. I'm also a member of I'm also a member of Group for Access to Disability Equipment, and the Appg published a forensically into the systematic barriers of disabled children accessing the medical including wheelchairs, that they need and that are holding back the sector from supplying the equipment that is needed.
Lord Shinkwin helpfully picture because community equipment is the backbone of social care and key to removing barriers for disabled people. 14 years ago, I was referred to They told me that as a stick from my sitting I didn't qualify for an electric chair, but the very reason my me was that I was doing steps a day, travelling to, from and the damage that that was doing to my already damaged joints was significant. I had to buy my own chair. Even this week I have heard facing the same inconsistent decisions, not based on actual needs, down because that is what it is all about.
That's why the Wheelchair that services should be The Appg report found that of users said services are getting worse. Over half of equipment users the medical equipment they need And as Lord Blencathra said, of users being let down So it was also good to the system has worked and my own family's experience for end of life care was But I note that the Kent end of wheelchair and equipment service There are lessons to be learned from that. Lord Reynolds contribution We need to hear from the equipment sector and understand their problems too.
One of the key issues in supply sector is that contracting by local authorities of services So as the Appg report shows, most local authorities became very dependent on one supplier who was cheaper than Earlier this year, in local authorities and above all, wheelchair and equipment users found I am pleased to report that authorities to try and remedy this, What's needed by the government different to a voluntary that serves the needs of disabled offering value for money to What we have at the moment Sir, can I ask the Minister if she would agree to meet with the all party group for access and disability
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My Lords, can I thank the noble Lord, Lord King Lord Hunt of Kings valuable debate today valuable debate today who share their valuable experiences. But I also welcome Lady Gerard. I hope I pronounced that I hope I pronounced that maiden speech shared her which we know will contribute which we know will contribute At its heart, this is a discussion about people's dignity and independence. about people's dignity and independence. Wheelchairs are, for many, participating in daily Enabling people to leave their and to access work and education.
But the reason for today's debate is that the current system faces serious problems. Indeed, NHS England's 2025 Wheelchair while the Appg for Access describes the system as being in crisis. So, my Lords, we welcome initial steps to improve such as the National Wheelchair Data Set and personal wheelchair budgets. These are welcome But data from the British shows that only around a wheelchair or much needed below the 92% national target. And people with complex needs and a delay in receiving simply an inconvenience or a statistic, it is a barrier to living a fuller life.
And also, we find that where how their wheelchair whether they qualify how clearly the process is equipment they ultimately England's own national data set shows between integrated care boards There is also a wide variation In North Bristol, at least four times weekly In Oxford, regular use is defined In Wirral and west Cheshire, often than not for powered We find in West Suffolk a person appropriate home accessibility, get GP clearance and pass west London that uses a tiered with detailed thresholds denying access to certain So when noble Lords discussed the noble Lady the Minister integrated care boards are responsible wheelchair services based on My Lords, I appreciate and reflecting local populations.
But could the Minister tell the House if the government believes that there should be more co-ordination but also communicating the criteria and what plans it has for achieving this? My Lords, the noble Lord hunt about his own experience when distressed, worried about his future being phoned by the wheelchair service. Obviously being unable to speak right now and then assuming that Instead, a letter was sent to his which he would never access again. And I thought that shows of situation some users So can I ask a noble Lady Minister, where local ICPs offer such What's the accountability is the department's thinking on making them accountable to allow while respecting local differences? And does the government have any plans service providers to make sure My Lords, I appreciate that noble but I hope the noble Lady, the Minister who we know will appreciate that we see this but one on which all directly on people's independence, touches directly on people's dignity,
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and touches directly on My Lords, I'm most grateful
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My Lords, I'm most grateful not just for securing this important not just for securing this important As the noble Lord Lord Kamall said, As the noble Lord Lord Kamall said, along with other noble Lords along with other noble Lords outside of your Lordships I'm also grateful to noble Lords, but also for sharing their experiences, some of which are painful to To the maiden speech of let me welcome her and let me welcome her The noble Lady spoke of choosing to speak in this debate because of its feature of, amongst other things, and I was very touched by what and who and GP really And I know that we all look forward Could I just say the government and we're delighted to have more This has been a affecting debate, the impact of services not being in And I'm sure that we would all agree But I would like what the government has done and is doing, and we are focussed on ensuring to services and support that they And my ministerial colleague the relevant Minister the points and questions him in respect of provision Integrated care boards are and the noble Lord Lord for the provision services based on the needs I'm glad that the noble recognise the importance of flexibility.
However, flexibility cannot be which I believe is a point I've heard. I have heard rightly and repeatedly today. So, my Lords, I do have to say to publish a national strategy I know that will be but I can say that NHS England guidance and legislation to support to ensure commissioning effective, efficient and personalised including the Wheelchair which was published just in April National Wheelchair Advisory do have a statutory duty to arrange for the provision of community to meet the assessed care and support And I would also want to add that our ten year plan for health gives that freedom and autonomy to serve local And I do think in this regard, it's important that we are and flexibility to a greater degree about how funding is deployed to get this done.
But I have heard about delays and I say this not as any excuse at all, but the pandemic still continues to have an impact on wheelchair services, not least because, in fact, reduced their services with but now face a backlog of referrals. Also, I was interested to have also experienced lower referral, lower referral rates during the pandemic. This, of course, has led to It has meant waiting times to fluctuated as services However, we do need action and I absolutely recognise And so to that point, in October, we published the NHS Medium which requires all icbs services to actively manage and reduce waits over 18 weeks and to develop a plan to eliminate all 52 week waits.
The noble Lord Lord to the need to focus and the Community Health Services monitor ICB performances against and currently monitors and young people and adults prosthetics and equipment, guide systems to reduce the longest waits. Additionally, the model wheelchairs sets out that take place have to take place in including hospitals. But the key thing here is based My Lords, my noble friend Lords rightly spoke to delays in discharge being linked to temporary wheelchairs rather than Let me say that access to support hospital discharge is It doesn't fall within the remit which does provide services to people of all ages with long term mobility needs.
I did hear the point the technology and quality of wheelchairs, and certainly that's one of the things I will be raising and discussing with Minister Ahmed in terms of improving As I said, reducing waiting It's not the whole story. So the quality framework Lord Shinkwin asked about this point, is very much designed to service providers to get it right. I have heard that both within this chamber this is not always the case But the quality framework sets out all suppliers and does align with and and to the point raised not just but also the noble Lady, Baroness Brinton.
This is about aiming to tackle I want to acknowledge that in My Lords NHS England out how Icbs should be communities, key partners And that's why each ICB who work closely with local authorities, who promote integrated working including those with learning down syndrome, and children special educational NHS England, also as was introduced a personal wheelchair budgets in 2019 and gave a clear framework for ICBs to commission focusing on outcomes giving people greater choice And I have heard what noble and also to the noble who spoke quite correctly about services on the ability to be That is about quality of And I share her views to the noble Lords, NHS bodies and local for dealing properly with complaints.
And let me say, overall, year health plan as a priority group service will support disabled people. It's about choice and the ten year plan focuses on that. My Lords, I have heard what noble I will be taking that back. I hope the steps we have
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but I do recognise there My Lords. I'm going. To just pause for a short moment to allow any movement around the chamber. allow any movement around the chamber. Motion for. Debate Common Good Foundation Don't stop thinking about tomorrow. And with all best wishes for
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Lord Hodgson, of Astley Abbotts. Thank you for those good wishes. I hope you'll still feel My Lords, the issue of My Lords, the issue of consequences has long consequences has long because I believe that failed to give the topic failed to give the topic analysis and attention appear to want a plan Conspicuously, we fail to plan for in our society the number of Over the past ten years, I've published this issue in as transparent and this report before your Lordships' and provides an appropriate bookend So I want to put on record my sincere noble Lord Kennedy, my own Chief Whip Baroness for enabling I'm not so far had the pleasure of I hope she'll forgive me if I say and when she comes to reply, I hope she will not confine herself just might just say we inherited a broken system from the party opposite.
Give us three years I hope instead that she to give some genuine consideration to the issues and concerns that because, my Lords, we all know, we all know which is not susceptible to piecemeal, short term solutions often produced By contrast, it requires conducted and transparent which should lead to This, in turn, will reassure the many concerned members of our population. In short, my Lords, we Space for what best can be described as the wisdom of the crowd and so marginalise views at either end of the spectrum.
Now the impacts of demographic In the words of demography, Yesterday is the year 2000, so we are of the decisions made by the Blair and tomorrow will be 2045, when assess the results of the what And they have then become fully apparent. And that's why my report is called But since this is a topic Let me define two of them. First, the subtle population means people who have a legal right to be in the UK and expect to spend all of the rest of their of their lives here.
It is not, as some will immediately It is not another word for white. But since close to 20% is now made up of minority communities, many of whom are not white, This is a group which level of concern about their interests, and the interests of their children often being sacrificed to short And secondly, my Lords, This has become a loaded term, as as opposed to those immigrants So I prefer to use Now, of course, I understand, the moral imperative that many of whom have been for a long time, and who have benefited to be concerned about not trying to close the door on those seeking to follow them.
My Lords, the numbers and scale do matter. So, however sensitive the key point of numbers and taken into account in our discussions. And that, my Lords, takes the strategic of the demographic a result of a series of the major political parties some being deliberate being events forced upon such as the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Over the last 30 years, since 1995, the population of this country has million, an increase of 20%, What do 11.5 million people look like? Well, the population My Lords, is 2.8 million.
So we've added rather over four And drilling into the issue of housing, since we live 2.4 people per dwelling, we have to have built 4.8 million And we and we have to do the shortages of housing amongst And if you want a snapshot, a snapshot 31% of all children born were born to mothers who 25 years ago, that figure was 10 or 11%. Now, my Lords, where do we go from here? And what does the future look like? Well, the ONS suggests we'll have another 10% or 6.6 million people, to slow over the period of 2045.
But by 2045, we'll have 76, 77 million people, and we will have overtaken Germany as the most populous country in Europe. Where will these people come from? Well, of course there the excess of births over deaths. But leaving that aside, because the man in the street will likely And in this, my Lords, he would be wrong, because historically the main We've always controlled. First, UK higher education. It has built a business an increasing number of foreign students, of whom 30 to 40% have morphed into our workforce at the end of their studies.
And second, British industry, which uses overseas recruitment as describes it as the default exploited the shortage occupation list, which enables you to recruit As I speak, my Lords, in the shortage occupation list. Many will be familiar, but not all. How many members of your we have a shortage of So, my Lords, it is worth noting also that our democratic challenge and challenge has made more acute by the fact of UK has 279 more than nearly four times as densely So for my this my third report, I concluded that to increase credibility, I should not write alone.
So I was lucky to get and the Centre for Policy Studies to respectively centre left and centre And I asked a number of experts discuss the demographic challenge It is, of course, impossible to summarise nine detailed chapters in this debate, but the overall conclusion of we've not been taking strategic approach to Further, since this demographic I made made contact with three Japan which of course of a rapidly declining population, and Denmark, which has now become Many interesting ideas emerged, enforces very strict and moves them on Rather depressingly, when how, where do they go to? Oh, they said they did it oh, the word on the street is, once you get to the UK, no You are free to do what you like.
So, my Lords, I believed that there was an interest to for the in the public. So I asked YouGov to do some polling and the results were Of those polled thought the government growth and 56% support the idea An important message for the three is that only 10% thought only 8% thought the Conservative and only and only 5% thought By contrast, 22% supported reform. So what could be done? We have to have the irrevocable nature of that departmentally based never, never provide a coherent response.
We have to cut through which suggest that change are not appropriate and we have to call out cases is closed down as Khan called in her government social cohesion freedom Thus, as an example, while it is policies to help achieve net Not acceptable to suggest that this country might impede that So I believe, my Lords, there is strategic body to be called or perhaps the office for which would subsume within it It will be tasked with collect evidence about of past policies with impacts of likely population changes, economic, environmental, ecological, societal and finally to undertake research into demographic developments and to learn from best practice around the world.
It would, however, not This new authority will be stand alone, but reporting to the Cabinet Office, Cabinet Office and of course it would also report at least annually to Parliament. It would help create conditions better and more balanced For example, is there a maximum can absorb without prejudicing What can be done to which are clearly inadequate? Is there an argument for rate amongst existing So let me conclude, my Lords, the governments may choose but recent events have shown and these pressures seem set to increase.
It is not just individual events it is about public mood. And so the issue seems set to be become a major driver of political change. Writing in The Times on Trevor Phillips article was the United Kingdom March And he went on to say, again, I quote, calling this movement rabble rousers will no longer do. Mainstream politicians Successive governments, my Lords, insinuating that those who are suggesting nothing can be done about it, and that if only everyone would stop Or finally making aspirational statements with no measurable follow through.
The mainstream parties House now need to set up a comprehensive, measurable response to public concerns. events will likely become As wild as spirits make the running, I can think of no more pressing threat to expressing internal threat to the long term prosperity and harmony of our, of our society, of this country So I'm proud and I'm pleased to be able to hold my valedictory debate on this topic.
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And I beg to move. The question is that
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The question is that My Lords, it's. An. Honour and a pleasure to. Follow the noble Lord
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Follow the noble Lord Opening of this debate,
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Opening of this debate, for his work over the over the years. And in those years, when I was And in those years, when I was we were in on the other side. In many ways I was a West So I would have come across who have played a role And I'm particularly glad because it's on a subject But for reasons which we are extremely reluctant to debate. And the noble Lords started of the problems we appear to be having, and I do sometimes wonder whether it when you had countries like either with a one child in a particularly aggressive that that that started us to shy which we shouldn't address.
But I think we'd be wrong to do so, and we'd be wrong to do And the one aspect I want to focus is actually the one on national security. And in, in, in, in the report, don't Professor Michael Clarke, his chapter is headed ask do for you and security of demographic change. And I think he very an important focus is on He takes us through the various arguments, but he essentially says the UK's it interprets its own deep either strength or a weakness on the one hand a source of deeper a series of fault lines by the country's adversaries.
And I think this danger We must not allow it to become some of the issues and having he essentially concludes that these internal and external our demographic evolution will strategies merely of hope more precise or new knowledge and understanding So I think he identifies the things which we need to look at if resilience and national defence and national security play into the debate about demography, and in a sense, the government has If you go back to the Strategic it actually has home and it very explicitly calls for And in that whole of society approach, it calls for building national resilience, increasing national warfighting readiness.
It makes it clear unity of effort across society, leading a national awareness of the threats to the UK, how defence deters and why defence requires support to And it states what ought to be The connection between the UK armed standing and necessary foundation and that all of that requires cohesion of society and for cohesion to happen, it requires certain other elements, and this may also be the moment to declare that I am an honorary captain in All right.
Thank you. And it's it's it's it's. And on top of that, I am what you I came in in the early 70s. And I do think that this have we mustn't stop I would challenge and say properly started to think about tomorrow. And if I just were to or listen to the news, Will residential doctors to provide extra places Sufficient now, as the that in demographic terms, I'm now talking about something 25 years ago that we published and it identified in terms of It made connections between to remain in the region in It therefore, said extra doctors which require between three, seven and 15 years to be fully trained, Birmingham University So there's a logic in that a regional needs demography So it's not that we don't but somehow we seem to how the decisions which we've made, which at one stage were long So when the places the Birmingham I couldn't I literally could not In 2025.
We're seeing those consequences. So we're talking about ageing population. We talk about pension contributions. We talk about inheritance tax. And as the noble Lord himself a system where we ended up creating for the funding of higher education students without having thought So I won't go on with those examples, but I want to say that when the the late Majesty the Queen Stock Exchange in the wake And she essentially said to Why did nobody see this coming? And then the answer to this at every stage someone was and everybody thought that were doing the right thing.
And what they did not do individual decisions or what the consequences of And I fear that with as, as recently told by Minister, when I raised the problem and they looked at me rather surprised and said, the facts are known now. Yes, I know the facts are known, And with a lot of what is in that report? The facts are known, but we do need that they become a meaningful And as the noble Lord said, there's and I can see the logic.
I would just like to add because this is a report by and therefore I think it would be it that in all this there is a need for And these are things which whether it's cohesion It is feeling of belonging and it is having a sense of identity. And that's why the national debate should also have a very local dimension. And I hasten to ever try But there's one Victorian value which I would like recommend to the house, and that is the civic audacity of It was a kind of confidence in place.
It was where cities other to be better than the other one. Their competition wasn't based on having to fight for a central pot of money, which was coming out of Whitehall, because that doesn't lead And I think similarly on I think we do need national figures, but I do think we need some very granular regional figures and regional data, and one which takes account of And I do think there will be best met by those local communities themselves. They have to take ownership of those.
And therefore this whole society approach, together with a bit of civic audacity, will give us, allow us but have a regional implementation be able to face the problems whether it's either in ageing populations or in other areas that we don't have the facilities in terms of schools or medical facilities, we can see them coming, we can plan, but only if we're willing have the data, but implement granular way than we do at the moment. Because if we don't start it's going to happen And we can't go on just
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I'm grateful to for his work in bringing and for giving us and for giving us I want to add my thanks to him for I want to add my thanks to him for and indeed his wider and to wish him well for the future. The authors of this report raise each of which demands careful negotiations so as to manage conflicting trade offs. It would be easy to brush of more electorally popular concerns, or to oversimplify them, But I want to put on record, firstly, questions such as what is a reasonable It may be an uncomfortable question, but what are we here for mature debates on uncomfortable questions? I want to then focus my Social Cohesion by Bishop While I would differ from Doctor I welcome his overall attention to be paid to the fabric of our society and how it is affected by the demographic shifts Perhaps, though, of course it is We're not short of policy papers, polling results or comment pieces a lonely and a polarised nation.
Ironically, that seems to be but rather what is needed beyond simply attention is action and leadership. The former faith Minister, calling for a clear and I want to add my voice to that. And indeed, my first question is to ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, can she assure us that the government cohesion strategy and doing I used the phrase social cohesion because I think what is support for newcomers to here and here my emphasis from that of Doctor Michael Nazir-ali.
I think if we were only the strength of our communities, then we would find higher loneliness, lower levels of civic participation a reduced sense of belonging in But that is not what the data shows. Once researchers control for poverty then any negative correlation and social cohesion disappears. So, yes, the government should pay be supported to become active I would give one example for Esol programmes to its previous level. It is almost impossible for somebody let alone appreciate if they cannot understand English.
But that by itself will We need to wrestle honestly with the toll taken by poverty, deindustrialisation, decades of increasing distrust and inequality. And we must take seriously the fact that the media and social media do best, commercially speaking, when And indeed, we know there are and who have no shortage of In one of the letters of the Bible, Saint Paul describes the church all different and each indispensable. This is the image which I believe should ground a social cohesion strategy.
How can we all be supported and encouraged to use our gifts to serve the common good, and to feel a sense of belonging? Even I would say, Our debate today will naturally should do and when it governments certainly They can and should invest enforce laws against discrimination, create conditions in which trust can grow but to be sustainable and fruitful, everyone has to feel a sense of I would like to see every universities, businesses, public services, sports, arts, everyone recognising that difference is part of their And so I close by asking agree with such a whole society approach,
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and can she share how My Lords, I, I deeply regret being here
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My Lords, I, I deeply regret being here today and participating in this debate. today and participating in this debate. I regret it because it is a valedictory speech of a great parliamentarian who should not be stepping should not be stepping in House of Lords terms. Just just look at him. He's still as sharp as a tack and gives He's still as sharp as a tack and gives Indeed, he's an Aston Martin if one is allowed to boast Okay, when electric terms, It just keeps going and going the family can tease him I'm certain he was and still For the last 50 years, he was and Futures Authority for ten years, and after coming to this place, he served on various committees before David Cameron asked him to perform a wholesale review of and he published his report co-authored an essay immigration, and the Levelling Up Agenda with my My Noble Friend, the Lord Horam.
Now, however, my Lords, for to 2023 that he made his to this House and indeed to the Secondary Legislation The Slcc and I had the privilege the chair of the Delegated Powers Now, I do say to my noble friend that he will be an absolute because he will not stop working. There'll be no slippers and pipe for him, and I expect to read in Yet another authoritative report I mentioned his work as chair of the Slcc. He authored an outstanding by Diktat A Call to Return which received widespread acclaim and is even more relevant today as we see more and more ill thought out bypassing proper parliamentary scrutiny.
So, my Lords, I welcome support of the Common Do not stop thinking about tomorrow, friend for bringing this vital The report rightly insists the next election economic and infrastructural will shape our country My noble friend's work sets out a clear, evidence based case population growth, driven in part by migration, pressures on housing, water, transport and public public concern about the pace of change that is real and we ignore it at our peril. As other noble Lords have pointed out, and without long term planning we risk undermining social But these are not They are practical governance thinking and durable policy responses.
However, my Lords, an additional and closely noble friend has raised be folded into our And here I want to amalgamate the theme in his report, Government by Diktat, where he warned that the increasing regulations and orders parliamentary scrutiny than primary acts has the effect of imposing hundreds of laws with minimal effective oversight, as he put it, quote, government by diktat must not become the norm, unquote. That in warning matters for the demographic debate we are First, because many of population concerns immigration settings, planning rules, environmental pyramids, infrastructure and approvals are exercised through secondary legislation, through secondary legislation and and a guidance and administrative practice.
If those levers are adjusted without we risk making long term rather than by democratic consideration. Second, when major social changes are managed through low scrutiny routes, public confidence in feeding the very polarisation and distrust that demographic report warns against. For these reasons, I urge two reports as complementary Do not stop thinking about tomorrow. Ask us to plan for democratic Government by diktat reminds plans matters as well as what we decide. Long term strategy requires not but also transparent, accountable lawmaking and genuine So what then, should we do? I suggest three practical steps that First, my Lords adopt strategy with a long term This strategy should align housing supply, water and energy planning, transport investment It should be published, updated higher and lower population local authorities and the public Second, restore and strengthen over the instruments that Where secondary legislation is clearer explanatory material, where appropriate, alternative affirmative procedures rather than negative ones.
We get almost in every bill these migration or infrastructure rules should be debated openly and honestly and, where necessary, enacted that are full democratic And third, my Lords, we public engagement and local empowerment. Citizens must be given about population projections. There are assumptions impacts on services and communities. Local authorities need resources integration and deliver National strategy without local delivery is a recipe for frustration and failure. My Lords, I suggest these steps They are about restoring the executive and Parliament, and about ensuring that long term They also respond directly to my not allow emergency modes of In times of crisis, speed is Scrutiny is essential.
So I want to return, in of my noble friend's contribution. He has done us a great demographic change as or by allowing the mechanics of He is connected statistics and legal process to That combination, my Lords data, democratic principle we need if we are to generation and succeeding generations. In closing, my Lords, by diktat report and this current one. Do not stop thinking about Let us take their combined Plan for tomorrow with and make those plans through processes that Parliament can scrutinise If we do that, we will not only manage population pressures more effectively, we will also strengthen make democratic government possible.
My Lords, my noble friend a committed parliamentarian, and quite simply a great man.
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I shall miss him immensely. My Lords, I'm. Delighted to take part
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Delighted to take part Initiated by the noble Lord, Initiated by the noble Lord, He was one of my supporters into your Lordships House in 2010, into your Lordships House in 2010, and I've had the privilege of Although sharing may not be Although sharing may not be the accumulation of paper of industry in the room is attributable. I'm afraid to him rather than to me. The noble Lord has been an exemplary whether on the front bench, in opposition, or, as we've heard, in chair of prepared to take on difficult subjects.
Some may remember the debate to which he brought such He kindly assisted me in a register of beneficial ownership for the foreign owners of and of particular relevance today. He has regularly drawn and highly contentious We will miss him very much This report, if it's the right word, It provides reliable facts essays from a number of As the library summary says, growth due to migration very special challenges including in inverted commas, extreme political But the noble Lord does not Rather, his report focuses on impact of population growth and provides, as he's told us, useful My Lords, my own view question are we entitled to decide We have certainly failed Of course, there's much to the country with new arrivals.
There is also an economic case to be made, and we have an excellent What's more, the expression of immigration can so easily No wonder centre parties tend to Will our country be happier for the vast increase in population in recent years, almost entirely due to immigration? We have an economy that and a widespread sense Of course, it's by no means but it has contributed Which reminds me of the late 1970s Jim Callaghan announced that he would think of leaving the country.
I was tempted, I may be wrong, my the population thinks that we should The Brexit vote was the sense that with freedom of movement, we were unable to determine come quite legally to live in our country. Since Brexit, we've had much of it in response But the emphasis politically Legal migration is, at least in theory, something that a country should Although there are huge practical I do accept that illegal term in that many asylum and thus the asylum seeker However, asylum seekers, those seeking more friendly are now increasing in but also as a proportion This government and the last boats crossing the channel The failure to reduce numbers to international law We have a dualist system in this law is not binding on unless we specifically We generally do not do that.
With the exception of the European which was incorporated in The debate about asylum very much on our whether they emanate from or even the rather elusive concept The Home Secretary has recently about tackling illegal migration How will this is going down and that human rights zealot, I don't know, but in my view, unless she tackles the primacy to what are often fashioned in an entirely she will never get control The recent efforts to Court of Human Rights are unlikely, I fear, to produce significant change, So I return to my fundamental Can governments say no? This report is a pertinent of the consequences of mass migration, but I fear that much of that they're looking for and that the next election will be This will largely be ignoring the reasonable if that scenario eventuates in what I hope will be could be forgiven for saying to
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My Lords. It's a great pleasure to debate and to follow the noble Lord. debate and to follow the noble Lord. Lord Foulkes. It is, however, an occasion It is, however, an occasion it marks the retirement of it marks the retirement of fair, honest and hard working colleagues. My noble friend, the Lord My noble friend, the Lord and I endorse everything his character and his generosity today. He was one of a small intelligent and constructive opposition going through for us the bleak years of the Blair government and his Since I joined the House in 2013, the noble Lord has been a great for me as I battled with including the tricky reforms on pubs.
As a Minister in the coalition government, he also made a superb contribution as chair of the Secondary As the noble Lord, Lord, my friend that is a body that effective and is incredibly important. And when we sat on the backbenches we tried to improve the immigration EU withdrawal Bill in 2020, control with a cap on new or vacancies in the UK before they or higher salary thresholds. All of these ideas were wrongly, as it's now clear. Lord Hodgson's underlying rationale, then, was the likely surge in the impact of that demand and the consequences for And on 30th September 2020, for an attitude which it will all be all right on the night.
His measured warnings on demography for demographic change were well And I'm only sorry that he had to I hope nobody will deny demography is a very important subject. It's especially important when such as we've seen in recent years. Indeed, demography in the form namely immigration, has for many years been at the top voters deem to be the most important So UK citizens were fully They judge correctly. After all, immigration of demography was plausibly a principal cause of Brexit and of the rise of As we've heard, Take Back Control to what was then regarded as for which nobody had voted And unfortunately, governments, have not shown the same clear Indeed, they frequently acted determined to see nothing This went on for many years tacit acceptance by all parties, including the party that the subject deserved more I am afraid that in House have not covered ourselves in glory.
When presented by my noble with the opportunity to to be of major importance to many voters, we have instead been much lesser issues We did not support his and we repeatedly turned a special committee of So, to our shame, we join But today we have the opportunity properly and fairly examining and we should do so in reading it, I was immediately struck by and the quality of The population grew from 55.9 million in 19 71 to 60 And of course, that has accelerated.
The fertility rate, however, has As the report shows, from the ONS are 1.41 per woman in 2024. In England and Wales, that's per woman in Scotland. Unfortunately, as Professor Pro-natal policies do not The most pragmatic the trend of older workers retiring later. So we need to make that easier employers who tend to discriminate As I found when I conducted the review another worrying statistic Sarah Harper is that the UK population over 65 is predicted to reach some 25% by the middle of That is, some 1.5 million people, and it's likely to double This means smaller numbers of productive people paying for the non-productive.
In a country where productivity the financial crisis during Now we know from the work of the proportion of the elderly will One of the reasons why growth cap on pension expenditure. In my review. We can also learn from Japan, who have a more open attitude and this could have a dramatic on the UK's future finances As those of us who are lucky working has a generally Some little known page 21 of my noble friend's report are those on National Insurance it is difficult to see how the 940,000 National Insurance numbers, can be reconciled with of work visas that have been issued now.
Lord Hodgson. I quizzed Home Office Ministers statistics during the passage but they appeared to degree of faith in their statistics and a resistance to looking forward It took several precious years for the establishment to accept that reality. Other important statistics have been that England has a has a population and will have a higher population And this is highlighted by a very interesting contribution which the noble Baroness Stewart of But all of this leads to that there is a problem finding properly based and appropriately focussed data to tell us what is going on.
It means there is a strong Following the precedent of the independent Dutch State Commission on Demography 2050, and as advocated by my noble friend, we have a problem. As the report makes clear, in of acceptability of discussing So climate change and net zero have been the subject of extensive debate, and have their own well resourced yet adding 6 to 10 million will not only set back climate change, but will have a major effect our grandchildren hospitals, housing and infrastructure.
We also need to get under As we discussed in we are now losing many entrepreneurs and ambitious because of burdens on business ushered So net migration has reduced But in the year to June 2025, we were many of them hard to accommodate on public expenditure I think we need to understand and regional ramifications much better. So in closing, I'd like to thank and his Chief Whip for this important debate and invite a new demography or population authority.
Given the expertise in this we should also tackle issues Such changes would be an appropriate Lord Hodgson's 50 year
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to public life and to My Lords.
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My Lords. Like others, I want to pay tribute to Lord Hodgson for securing this debate, but also for bringing forward what but also for bringing forward what But of course, there have been But of course, there have been And I guess over the years And I guess over the years discouraged that perhaps the day have not seized have been provided by him and his reports. But as Baroness we're all to blame in Parliament None of what is occurring Perhaps the scale of it but the trend has been there and there hasn't really been Nobody, no political party in its manifesto other than vague targets, none of which has ever been met.
And we now see the outworkings of that with the changing political landscape. And if anybody thinks this is I think they'd be very unwise It is fair to say that The Blair government, when mass when decisions were taken on the accession countries and the European Union, we took people from those there's no doubt, but we weren't It was a decision of this government And then, of course, it ultimately in this country for our And ironically, our departure with an acceleration of mass Now, I think the report has but I just wanted maybe bit to figures that most people don't or 12 million or whatever.
But let's break it down. Let's take the year 2223 to June 23rd. The net figure per week this country legally was 23,000 per week. Now imagine what 23,000 people looks like. All of them require accommodation. All of them require water 23,000 people per week. We have no possibility whatsoever of being
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able to integrate 23,000 people a week. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It went down in 23, 24 to
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It went down in 23, 24 to And it is down further since. But the net figures are But the net figures are you know the requirements you know the requirements are coming in versus who are leaving and the differences, who are leaving and the differences, those figures actually the implications of what we're facing now. All the papers and the evidence. something about the illegal or irregular immigration on the boats are making a fortune out of this misery.
But that actually, in numerical because I think we're running at about But that is a is a mere If, if, if compared to the legal means. Now, there is no doubt that we all and our our predecessors You cannot allow and expect change and there not be consequences. It's utterly impossible to imagine that you can't have consequences from that. The scale is so large, numbers matter. My own view has been for some time that we do need to institute a pause in this, because unless we slow this down consensus on what the future of I don't want to see it become which it very well might few years coming up to another election.
But if there is a consensus in mad rush of people and let's face Yes, there's the illegal side But we are issuing the visas. There is a machine and work things out, how do we integrate? How do we maximise What contributions can be made? We need thoughts along those lines. Right reverend Prelate talked about a new effectively was a new contract. We must look at all of these things, but we cannot look at them rationally And there are two areas of responsible our further which is a very expensive sector, is living on a business model It is failing to provide the trained And don't forget, we have a growing number of economically inactive people.
We are also then allowing people in on work visas at lower wages. And we see that all over the country. But those businesses don't have and other matters arising And it's not only the ones it's their dependents and families. And it goes on and on and on. We are, whether we like it or not, It's the place that has been referred nobody looks at this. We don't know who's in the place. We're losing young people. Hundreds of them have gone missing.
We don't know where they are. I've no doubt many of them are We don't know where they are. We don't know who they are. People coming in, destroying How do we know who they are? There's no checks on them. It's impossible. And yet they'll be in centrally And yet up the street here, there'll So this country has got itself And I have to say, this Parliament So I would suggest to perhaps she'll give some the idea to her right got to take a period and we've got to look at the further and we've got to look at bring people into this And that is what's been happening.
And, you know, to be perfectly for a Labour government to I mean, it's the very antithesis of what the movement I always So I would say that we haven't I have been battling with some information about the costs We got the costs of hotel accommodation. We know it's roughly between but that's dealing with that occupants is now 36,000. We have 111,000 people but are in other forms of accommodation. And of course, there was by the Audit Office the other day.
And part of the reason why I haven't got an answer to my questions is that the Audit Office has concluded Because there are different pots Money is coming from the Foreign Office or overseas development budget that has been fed in as part of this, So the figure that was produced and I got the library very kindly Office's figures for year were running at about 4.5 billion. But that doesn't touch the size. We don't take into account We don't take into account the huge cost of the legal and other services.
We don't take account of that has to wade through all this stuff. And of course, we don't take account of the policing costs where individuals clearly are misbehaving and have to be dealt with through the legal courts. So I would say it's probably it seven, £8 billion a year. And when you we said this is one issue where and have buried our heads in the sand, we're also we're pretty good at that. We haven't built a frigate in and we wonder why We've only seven that are operational, which is half what we had in 2010.
We're good at that, keeping So I would say to the Minister, please the serious implications of ignoring We all want can work together. We want to avoid extremism And it will if we continue So it is primarily But I believe other parties be very happy to work with the government to create a strategy that of achieving public support.
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My Lords. Can I begin by associating myself with all the good things that have been all the good things that have been said thus far by noble Lords about And I also want to pay tribute And I also want to pay tribute and also say a major thank you, and also say a major thank you, a thank you because back when I first met the noble when I first met the noble the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, at my first Conservative Party conference, I well remember the noble to become much more engaged in politics.
I took his advice and very quickly councillor and then a parliamentary For the 1997 election. The latter experience taught me I realised that just 20 miles from my another world of different existed and was growing rapidly. The report, Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow is excellent in many ways, and I want to concentrate upon the social and cultural impact of in particular, the challenge cultures who do not among themselves and do our British way of life, In Slough, I was quickly different communities on nearby Chalvey, which is just a few hundred These were knife fights between The authorities did nothing so as a term that, with the ascendance a crazy failure given meaningful integration At that time I was invited often saying we have too much They could see and experience and some of them were afraid.
Animosity between cultures who with them to this country as other noble Lords have One stark example is which is so appalling it degrades and shames us all as a people. I well remember young Muslim men our people do not respect your are weak and don't stand I entirely agreed with them. Multiculturalism allowed difference and we were weak and afraid to for fear of causing offence The treatment of women and nationalities is still a huge problem. The rape gangs say it all.
In addition, Pakistan outlawed funded through evermore Whilst most working British couples whether they can afford to As for the appalling disabilities which continues to have NHS children's wards for the long term, what on earth were and are of all persuasions thinking, and why has the taxpayer been funding this barbaric and immoral practice for so long? In addition, how many been for another barbaric practice FGM? In the past two years, who've been threatened My Lords. In addition, successive politicians me that polygamy is definitely So where are Anger and an enormous In 2004, when I was Blair opened our borders migration and told us people a year would come to our country.
We now know that legal migration Where was and is Meanwhile, a net 170,000 highly have left this country in the past year to work and live a different life. A life where there is an energy for An anger has been growing, the massive increase in legal migration, but also illegal migration, the latter bringing of criminal gangs to our shores. This hasn't happened overnight, however. Politicians have for too They have been blinkered A House of Commons cross-party entitled Future Maritime didn't address any threat of In addition, the disbandment together with the short sighted patrol patrol aircraft contract Cobham in 2015 meant almost maritime aerial surveillance In response to this extraordinary I had the audacity to Lordships House and I quote my immediate concern regards maritime security, particularly the security of our borders.
I say this, given the clear threats from uncontrolled Again, my Lords, that was 2015. My concern was unanswered. Recently things have deteriorated. Now we know that we have We then lose them either from Is it the Home Office not telling Or are the politicians afraid to At least the Home Office has now admitted that immigration is out of control, thanks to good journalism and our We now know that illegal arrivals as we also know that manage and assist the illegal boats is to vape shops, etc.
Why are these people who have Why are they given money to take illegal cash only networks This Monday we learnt that imported in the stomachs Why has the government Why aren't we warning every citizen that these shops may well, and often are, sanctuaries for criminal gangs money laundering into dealing in and delivering drugs. Gangs, often run by Albanians with out of the asylum hotels with I have now learned from a written question that we release convicted foreign adult male criminals awaiting HMP Huntercombe, owing to provide the necessary We are not told how many and how often.
In addition, it is now clear I've received that the Home illegal immigrants have simply in the past five years, The Home Secretary, we are However, I have now asked be removed if we don't My Lords, you can tell that I'm angry. Angry? For the love of my country For our children and our grandchildren. This is not about being far right. This is about love of country. A love that all those who live here will naturally In conclusion, we must stop bending uncontrolled immigration can Nor must we keep bending to in trying to destroy or usurp our I will not talk about rights, only others who try to change Thank you, my noble friend Lord Hodgson, for this opportunity to speak the truth.
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Yes. I think we can all agree, my Lords, that if anyone deserved a debate that if anyone deserved a debate it is my noble friend, Lord it is my noble friend, Lord Not simply because of Not simply because of with its brilliant title with its brilliant title but also a body of work which a similar kind on the demographic Also, persistent demands work in this area is my Baroness Neville, Rolfe pointed out. And also persistent demands for as my Lord, my noble friend for authoritative work on the select Delegated legislation which is and also to my noble friend for all.
Lord Hodgson's work in the party, in significant roles as Convention and all the rest of it. And that doesn't begin things that my noble friend has done. I mean, he was a member of Parliament. We were we were celebrating what He was a member of Parliament. Well, leaving aside successful businessman with a 40 year career in the private equity business and also not only as an entrepreneur. My God, we need those these putting his own skills and knowledge And on top of that had It's amazing, frankly.
What my noble friend. I'm still in awe to it and we will I can tell him that firmly. He's pointing at you, my His wife. So I am eternally grateful to my And as this particular favour of a authority it is there are a number of reasons The first of all, it's a huge issue. Population migrants are the National Health Service, and the economy is one And Baroness spoke with heartfelt It does fire up people, Secondly, we are a small island.
When American soldiers were told World War and were when they were think North Carolina were They have a 10 million population. We have nearly 70. That's the comparison that we make. We are a small island. We have to be careful about People want it. People do want a control on population. Lord Empey made the point And the report makes it clear The government should be looking Given their fiscal problems. It would not be an expensive Other countries are doing it.
Other countries Canada, Australia, Norway, Denmark are doing precisely It would reduce toxicity. And noble Prelate spoke about This would do that. This rational, objective It's a responsibility We always think we should the same sort of situation as we found it. It also has vision and a plan. People are constantly saying about the present government where's the vision? Where's the plan? This is a plan and this has a vision. Also, as my noble friend other extremist policies And the noble Baroness should be Because when I look at where in the recent elections the Conservatives reduced to ten and the Labour Party was reduced to one.
And if you look at which the noble Baroness was are all thought to be likely to go reform the next general election So she has an understanding, And also, may I say, finally, the future of democracy is at stake term autocratic societies better because we can The democracies are far too short So I think for all those and sort of instrument My personal view is that and hate most is The effect and the shortage of housing and the need to put up more housing, and therefore the demolition of I was born in 1939, in just outside present Preston, at the entrance to the Ribble Valley.
You go up the M6, turn off at Pudding Modern technology. And there you are in Grimsby. And during the war time In fact, my father was away on war work. It's a wonderful place my little pebble bashed house terraced house was surrounded by fields It was absolutely idyllic, wonderful. He was no obesity. There was rationing. So no obesity, no malnutrition. There was, I'm afraid to say, A great deal of what the official War said was an epic of flatulence which we have then the population not 70 million, 40 million.
And it's possible to have that And my little village, the next Now, as a result of what's the locals call the villages Because the fields have disappeared It's now one village village with No fields, no no woods, no nothing Get in the car. It's ridiculous. I'm reminded of Philip I don't know what House may Going, going. And that will be England gone. The shadows, the meadows, the lanes, There will be books. It will linger on in galleries.
But all that remains for us He wrote that in 1972. How much more visible it is And that's been pointed out. It's going to get worse. And the driver is immigration. I think of immigration rather like water. You know, your doctor will tell especially if you're my age, is have a bit of water every day My GP keep taking the water. It's good for you. Well, if you binge on water, it really is bad for you And the fact is, we've binged 20 years instead of taking which would be natural, which and be an adviser to the to the nation.
So that if you did slow down immigration, and I think I personally am because that would mean you probably would have in population or at least We need not fear that, as is the present situation of constantly GDP, extra GDP by persistently And other countries which immigration have exceeded For example, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea has a declining population, but its economic growth GDP per Now the UK citizens of South affluent than people of our Taiwan is even more affluent than people.
UK and Japan is not far behind. So you can do this. You can do this with In fact, it may be better Other people raise issues well. If we have less immigration, we'll have. What about all these elderly Who will be the young Will read the section by Professor The fact is, we can raise Look at all of us. How many of us are there? Age of 65 are still working You call this part time? The fact is all that could be done quite apart from technology and so forth.
But all these issues need to and the authority in would enable us to do that. Now, I've been in these debates and we usually get the argument I remember Lord Kennedy on this side when we were in power, and I can't remember who was the Minister of government Minister at the time, but they all said, oh, we can't do this. Both, both major parties. Lord MP has a point in we can't do this, we should not do this. And the arguments were would First of all, we're doing it anyway.
We're collecting all these figures anyway. Not true. I went to the Appg on Social and the Oxford Observatory of Migration Migration Observatory pointed out. The figures are not being Of course, departments here and there for their own purposes, but not in the holistic way that we need. So that argument doesn't stand up. The other argument that is usually is we don't want another quango, But as my noble friend he proposes to change into this body so there body but a replacement body for this one.
And the third argument, which is appetising or favourable, is that somehow got the whiff of eugenics about it. This is about something It is not at all unpleasant. It's a simple common sense. So I do think that this straightforward, common sense proposal, and that we have responsibility, the responsibility to future And if I say one thing to my noble as you can see, I warmly applaud He may leave, but we will not give it up. He's determined, man, and many others are determined It's a brilliant idea and all brilliant ideas like this are worth fighting for.
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Yes. My Lord sir, I also
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My Lord sir, I also Lord Hodgson, on securing this debate. Lord Hodgson, on securing this debate. He has been consistent attention to the very serious consequences attention to the very serious consequences that will flow from continued immigration on anything like the present scale. on anything like the present scale. His opening speech was masterly For my part, I've been engaged in That was with Professor David Together we set up Migrationwatch in understanding of the challenges That work is now being taken A retired British Today I'll focus just on three points.
First, the continued chaos in to be damaging to public even the integrity, of Many members of the public simply don't deter or prevent the arrival of many, They're right. My Lords, the current legal has failed and it needs to be replaced. But that is a very complex My second point is about which tends to get of the press that are It is ridiculously high, as himself over the last Net migration has net migration 3 million in round numbers.
We've been seeing levels of half 1,000,000 in 1 year, a million in the next year, a million in the next year, and half a million in It's astonishing. It's only told you this five years Just not possible to achieve. And one wonders how the government And as for the current calendar year, net migration looks like But the reasons for that My Lords, it's indisputable Party lost control of the numbers. So serious steps are now needed So far, little sign that have understood just what is required.
The Home Secretary has spoken. Well, let's see if she can get Thirdly, and lastly, my Lords, let be allowed to continue at It now poses an existential It is sowing the seeds of the cohesion built up over centuries, and it is rapidly changing Indeed, it's hard to believe not already recognised These words from Matthew Syed are I think he wrote this. The utter failure to control our borders was not an expression of democracy, but its greatest modern betrayal.
And it will reverberate That is someone of Pakistani And he can see it and he will say it. But there are not enough people. I think people see it, but there My Lords, the effect of these developments depends on the assumptions being made about future net migration and about the birth rates of different communities. It will be fair to say that the white British become a minority in about 35 years time. This is based on not migration over the coming years.
Nobody actually knows obviously, how this is going to turn out, That serious action, serious serious moves have to be taken. Otherwise we will muddle our way My Lords, the public have never and never been consulted about But the writing is on the wall. It's high time that our leaders read measures to get immigration
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Oh my Lords, it is good to be following Lord Green of Deddington because Lord Green of Deddington because I want to actually pick up on some I want to actually pick up on some But first of all, I'd like to Hodgson for this really And the report which I've read And the report which I've read toolkit for all politicians to be in seriousness, take the issue integration and social cohesion seriously. My noble friend.
My noble friend started and every single noble Lord to contribute to show we've all failed to actually I am an immigrant. I came to this country as a nine month old baby with immigrant parents from India, but my grandfather was here in 1938. We see ourselves as a family that properly taken on the values this country has enabled families And I think for far too long, with the Labour benches for And I know Lord Brook wanted to speak. Was slightly caught out on time, but this this debate should be concerned about the state of what and how I come from Leicester.
And the right reverend Prelate He will be witnessing on the discord that is happening because communities are looking and less integrating And Leicester is one of the most So I think I come from a place where, following on from I feel that every time to raise the debate around these subjects, we were shot down as being and as being those that of of harm for each other's communities. And I remember when we ID for elections debate in this chamber, the Liberal benches reminded me of of, well, the Bame community, will feel that they cannot be Now, is these sort of assumptions that have not been born here but from immigrant We, by and large, are integrated but we have focused far too long on those communities that outside of the mainstream of this country.
And we have pandered allowing them to socially up to the values that they generations had come to this country for. And that was for liberal able to be yourself, to be able to thrive, to be able to grow and not be or where you came from in So it's a really serious debate for me. I get very, very irritated an honest debate about something Most of the population, including my children are absolutely the state of the debate I grew up in the times this toxic debate was happening then, and it was difficult as a child to abused on a daily basis because We have moved quite a long way accepting that there is but it was a mix where everybody tried to be part of the wider community, where my mother, like Lord, my noble came to this country as a 20 she wanted to be part and I have said it many times.
She learned English. Now I've heard it mentioned on the new immigrants not being Let me tell you, there are who have not learned to There. Women are not allowed to go because they want control I have adult social care business, which I will highlight is in We come across families in particular communities, and they're not restricted to one faith. By the way, do not meet any They go and they are home schooled. They go to the chemist that The grocery shop is of their community.
How are we going to get this to happen in our And I think for far too long, what's the country is because we have whether it's the institutions the police, the social work, we have been complicit because when it's ever been raised, it was raised well. You're a racist and I'm afraid and it was at the detriment Now, I've been in politics. I was 11 years old when I went because it's difficult to be a little kid and have names thrown at So I went on marches because but that does not mean we accept along and force feed and not My mother actually, I spoke to my I said, mum, I'm going to this place.
She said, tell them, Tell them this. You come to this country, Now my mum is a force, for she's a force. But the one thing my mother taught ever give in to a small number They are loud voices, for the majority of this country. Somebody asked me the other day, do you think Britain's And I said, no. I said, what's happened a smaller number of people and the large majority And I think we need to And I stand here and I say to of those people across we cannot give vacuum because And sadly, for far too long, we've allowed that vacuum And I will finally say to all definitely read this and then any community that comes to this the values and And if you don't like it, then please find somewhere else to go because you are creating disharmony.
For those of us who have got This is our country. We love it to pieces. The flag belongs to me as And I will fight to did for the British Army. We will fight to the core But we will not allow negativity to be taken up by a small group of people. Apologies for my gravelly voice. I'm getting a cold it to my noble friend on the front bench. So I'm now going to end and I'm going to point it When you lifted the two cup child what you've managed to do have to take little responsibility.
I will say to you and as, as, as I come from a community as important to lift us out, to be socially mobile upwards. A lot of Indian families with £3 in their pockets and have been very successful because the education system here allowed them to be. So please, please think very
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that pushes people backwards Yeah. I'm sorry. My Lords, may I begin
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My Lords, may I begin if perhaps a rather general one, as the incoming director general of as the incoming director general of which has an interest in these My Lords, it's a pleasure My Lords, it's a pleasure and a pleasure to follow Burma, for a very powerful Burma, for a very powerful that I think compelled attention. It is also a particular as many other noble Lords have said, to be able to support the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, today, and to pay tribute to all his work over many, many years.
And the report on population which entirely characteristic of of issues which he's and I think is particularly needed for there is, without We've heard them already today, But as the report notes, the UK population has risen A third of that increase has arrived And another who knows how many five, six, 7 million may arrive over Now, population growth on on an already densely packed island, and particularly in which is now one of the most densely Apart from island states, underlined in Lord Hodgson's report.
This obviously poses challenges public services, social And as we've heard, the implications not taken into account systematically And indeed, the debate on as if expressing doubts about whether rapid population growth is desirable or possible to accommodate marks And one of the important things is that it is a way of of those taboos about and it's very necessary polling shows that the public feel that the population is growing too fast and that immigration has been too high. They know that something is amiss.
Now, my Lords, we've we've discussed those issues already at some length today. There's one particular aspect which has been mentioned, And that is the question of the number of children that And that's really where Just reviewing the facts briefly. All Western countries, with have seen significant and the UK has current children per woman is 30 years ago, all of our population of course, but 30 years ago, all all of our population came from births, from natural increase.
15 years ago it was 5050. Now births and deaths are our population growth is And this is historically unprecedented, or at least since the fifth century AD. Now, why has this decline Some of this is obvious. Social changes are real Women have more choices. Education and careers rightly come first. Marriage is delayed. But these changes have been in They surely account for rate over the 1960s and the 1970s. But since then, between about 1980 the number of children per woman replacement rates, but not so far from it.
But since 2015, fertility has fallen As I said now, it's and it often is attributed to particularly British factors such as high housing themselves driven by or to attack a system that is compared remarkably unfriendly to families. But in truth, that isn't and a similar trend is visible across most European countries is more The starting points are different, but the trend is still Now why is this happening? The only honest answer to give, I think, is that we don't really One can, of course, speculate across Europe since the financial There is perhaps a growth I don't know, I feel it's but certainly present of those who could it be the growth in the boom in dating apps, the growth in, shall we say, novel conceptions of sex and the family have had some effect on all of this, my Lords, unpopular though it may be The increasing recourse to abortion now at its highest ever level in this country, a quarter of a million abortions in 2022, not far off now, half clearly has an impact on the figures.
Or could there be something more some sort of loss of More broadly, some say this is Others see it as a decline in confidence Who knows? Whatever it may be, when people be better than the present, And the fact that Israel, a country with strong civilizational self-confidence, amongst many other things, This trend suggests there is at however, we don't really know. And that's part of it particularly difficult to to deal with. But the fact that we don't know isn't We have to deal with they exist whether we like them or not.
We have to try and find them if we can't change them. So what can we do? Well, I identify, and here I'm notably Doctor Paul Morland. There are three possible The first is to try the fertility rate back As I say, so far only this amongst developed nations and other countries that have tried extra public support or whatever. The French, the Hungarians have And this suggests to is an economic aspect to this problem, it isn't really the whole of the problem.
The second approach is to demographics and simply accept lower fertility in but invest heavily in reform of the labour market this older population with fewer children. Now that's the solution set In the noble Lord Hodgson's report, Here. The basic difficulty, though, is that to increase we need in this country and across Europe, to embark on a campaign of for which no political party and which perhaps ageing reluctant to to contemplate. Now, the third approach actually chosen over the last 30 years, along with most developed bring in a replacement population in port workers and their families to maintain the worker to dependent that the native population cannot.
Now the problem with that is not actually a solution First of all, the economic is weaker than is often claimed. The work of Doctor David Miles shows that mass migration does It may produce a growth in but not per capita. And of course, there are and other consequences Second, a more fundamentally, mass migration is simply a way If you try and hold the dependency that is, at about its current 3 to 1, to ensure that always enough working age people to support people in retirement, simple maths shows you end up to three quarters of a million Pretty well now by 2050, a third of the British population I personally do not particularly I do not think it's and it may, in any case, not be a solution that's of the growing skepticism That, again, has been touched So I think we have to exclude that option.
The option of importing the option that is before down close to zero for a prolonged period. If we choose to resume it later on a more. Selective choosier basis, then we can. But it does, of course What can we do to solve it? First of all, try that involves boosting economic growth, building more houses, reforming taxation, doing what we can to change and cultural messages that are around us. But as I say, we should not count on that.
We can't count on that actually working. The second is the Japan solution a more productive workforce And luckily, the solutions there more reform, more incentives However challenging that all looks. And I think the third thing is to pick up is a bureaucratic one, if you like, is to pick up the recommendation for an independent advisory providing us with honest, about the trade offs and the numbers. And I would add to that, I think tasked with studying trends in It should be tasked with looking countries across the world have made and more broadly, what tells us about managing And finally, my Lords, as I said, we need to break the taboo I remember the scorn that was poured upon politicians who my friends on this, sharing my political opinions, people like former MP Miriam Cates When they sought to raise these questions 2 or 3 years ago, they persisted.
Credit to them. And now, slowly, the birth rate We can't avoid it. It's very welcome, honest, open, evidence based discussion between fertility and migration. The economic and social is vital if we're going to restore public trust in our institutions ability to solve these difficult questions. And the noble Lord, Lord a vital contribution to that conversation, and I hope it marks the beginning, not the end, of a more one of the defining My Lords.
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I to congratulate my noble for the debate, and for for the debate, and for Now, the report makes Now, the report makes we will continue to need high quality, highly skilled individuals above all, highly skilled individuals above all, who can contribute directly who can contribute directly But now, every country in competing for that same Some are doing so with golden visas, others with citizenship by investment. And today we just heard about Yet contributing to Britain's you to actually be physically In fact, many highly productive else while still contributing in My Lords, the government should establishing a British A digital resident would not need but could incorporate a British company, open a British bank account, benefit bid on British contracts, hire local transact in pounds and pay tax placing any strain whatsoever Now this is not a silver but it does allow us to think Other nations have experimented Estonia being the clearest example, and Estonian digital residents companies without ever But the UK could offer a far more and the highest performing Along this, my Lords, we should recognise the value Many countries now offer one year and work temporarily without being and and these countries are attracting Now, my Lords, we don't offer and we're leaving this Whereas Portugal, Spain Finally, my Lords, as it is absolutely true and a very good thing that we will see robots deployed at scale in industries across the country, including in agriculture Now, sooner or later, harvesting in Kent and they will be And we're witnessing into manufacturing across much of which is possible only because factories are now highly automated.
This shows robotics doesn't kill and it attracts global capital And my Lords, I would urge noble Lords Robots are nice. They do not require GP appointments. They don't need housing, they And so far they haven't willingly They will unquestionably local industries and new opportunities Maintaining these renting them out all components My Lords, this report is called In doing so, we must economic contribution will come in new and exciting forms some human, some digital and some robotic. And in thinking about tomorrow, we must be ready for what
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Thank you. Very good. My Lords.
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My Lords. So that with apologies for not I would like to make a small I would like to make a small My Lords, I have two reasons for My Lords, I have two reasons for Firstly, I wanted to pay Firstly, I wanted to pay Lord Hodgson in this his We all are. We all are sad at the departure from this house of the noble Lord Hodgson. But we do have the benefit. As Baroness Buscombe pointed out of of him kindly leaving behind his wife.
And we will therefore continue to have the benefit of Baroness My Lords, my second reason for was in my maiden speech in this a 53 years ago, I debated and the need for a UK population policy My Lords, I have to say that despite my speech, has been negligible. And we have the evidence of this excellent report in 1971, the population of the United But now there has been My Lords, in that debate, responsible parents had no That rather puzzled me could produce a point five of a child, and it was then became a matter me because of my wife then So I was point five irresponsible.
According to the view in the debate, on this very important subject, The rise in population causing strain on vital components in our society. The National Health Service, housing, demographic balance are all And there has been too much social unrest, particularly arising out of immigration. And I can do no better. My Lords, in this brief intervention, and I hope the whips are noticing that I'm keeping to the promise of four minutes indeed is only three at the moment, and I'm glad for the my noble achievement that this vital at the very end of And it is that we must we did or did not have and adopt policies that more of the settled population of the country, whose general welfare must surely be the primary objective of any government.
I endorse those words, my Lords, obviously because of Lord But I also think it's a very important He's been a as everybody has said, he's been a respected member of the House, indeed a great servant of I think he represents all and we shall miss him. During the 14 years that I shared some part of over in Fielden House with him. So I had the opportunity, not but we were in the same over for votes and to and we talked about the merits We talked about three We talked about the prospects and we talked about in that we were going on or we'd been on.
And I've always respected that he's so bravely led at times. We've already mentioning the Holocaust memorial His bravery and his interventions. I couldn't quite believe retiring when I talked to He's always seemed to me and the only consolation is, as others have said, that we will have which will provide a vital link with him, but we shall miss his contributions, his courage and his tenacity like this one today. And we wish him, I'm sure, a very happy and long fourth So on the report I'd In total I thought it was fair, timely, provocative and it's encouraged and I think it's an example on on an issue that troubles him.
And I congratulate him on it. The only criticism I have, and that's what I'm going is that I think although Japan and Holland, I think it lacks because the pressure of It's not just the demand from inside, And we live in an age sadly reminds me of the 1930s, Although it ended in a war, it did lead to a generation of international cooperation, trying to address some of the problems But today we have not mass unemployment, We have a due to the huge pace of change, international competition of traditional jobs and occupations, we have absolutely stagnant We have nationalism, or at least Nation all the efforts after the war to provide cooperation And we face a situation in this country of an aging population where there's provision of unimaginable consequence And actually, I have to say, closer than at any time since So immigration and population growth, are very high on the agenda.
And it's not surprising. It's a key issue, public because people think it has been extraordinarily so. I know it's had the problem but clearly the numbers show how And the result of that is of immigration are now being challenged. I also accept that short term fixes but I do agree with the report that it is the long term trends which need attention, I don't think, and I'll have a time sink. I think whenever we talk about we must recognise that been benefits from it, the open economy, the dynamic energy that it's given us, the commitment to education coming here for education to our culture and our community.
We've only got to see the schools in our immigrant areas of London and elsewhere, where aspiration has actually strengthened my family. The last generation was half Dutch. The next generation will be half and it's given our family huge And I don't think whenever we should forget the commitment immigrants have made to and we shouldn't underestimate Now, obviously, the country wants They don't like lack of control, I think Lord Forbes made That is the principal People think immigration Now we know the boat migration problem is not the sole problem of immigration, but at the moment it's defying control.
And it seems unfair to that people are trying to jump the queue. But it's only one part, But it attracts attention And I, I, I think do that and I support their but it's not it's not going to be I actually think about I have to ask the question, I think it has actually, because I think the French are not wholehearted behind us, and they don't have the pressure If we were a member of the EU, we we're outside Europol and we And I think take back control has Immigration in, in reality Sovereignty is not actually very because all the pressure And unless Europe can address the numbers coming across from the Mediterranean, it's not going to be easy to stop Immigration is an international then I think we don't perspective in dealing with it.
Then I think we're losing a trick. Have we assessed, for the cutbacks that are now being made in overseas aid by ourselves in huge cutbacks and women are being unable to get the help they would they would get, which would be available So we're worsening the problem. The pressure of immigration. And I think those who of the European Declaration I accept the point that to get consensus and and reform, but it needs redrafting. There's an international But withdrawal from it, from will simply make the problem worse.
I'd like to mention, in finishing we've not had much discussion of our university sector Students are not the problem, in my But the report makes the excellent that the students move onto and that contributes to We should take the student When we're talking about others huge benefits for in having these overseas students. And we know about the soft power, but we do need to deal with the situation where people are staying on simply When our own people have not I welcome the debate.
I think Lord Hodgson for his and I wish him every good
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My Lords. I want to begin by putting the contributions in this the contributions in this Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, over Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, over I have only been House for ten of those years, but it has been an honour but it has been an honour to serve alongside him during this time. He has been an active and effective He has been an active and effective and he will be greatly missed. The heartfelt tributes from today are testimony to I'm delighted to take part in this debate.
To take note of this report. Don't stop thinking about tomorrow. The the issues raised in the report speak to one of the most consequential policy challenges of our age future of the United Kingdom. My Lords, the authors of Don't demand that we confront The the, the demographics They shape our economy, our our culture, our infrastructure Demographic change is one of and least planned for forces And as the noble Lord, we should not be afraid to discuss it. My noble friend Baroness Verma, in also made an eloquent, eloquent Democracy, demography and integration have been swerved for far too long.
My Noble Friend's report is It is evidently the result and proposes a number of recommendations which we should consider carefully. I congratulate him on it. One of the most impressive features of this report is the fact that it shines a light on so many of the areas on biodiversity, on national security, on public services, Increasing migration is as the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington and among this report makes population controls and forward planning, the pressures on public services, infrastructure and the environment We need to consider how to ensure that migration predictable and aligned with Delivering and effect The report calls for.
My Lords. The report emphasises that particularly high net migration, a place in substantial burdens education and welfare and infrastructure. And it warns that the United Kingdom could become one One of the most populous countries Yet, crucially, population an an increase in living standards. Indeed, as the report notes, rising aggregate GDP often stagnant productivity relying on an ever increasing levels to boost headline This point was well made by my What matters is what Living standards for person, not My Lords, economic success must better skills and strong Not continually importing for structural weaknesses.
Relying on low skilled As the noble Lord, Lord Empey emphasised, we must prioritise our own skills, programmes and address the challenge of upskilling The report warns repeatedly up GDP growth or to compensate will lead to long term fiscal strain. My noble Baroness friend, spoke persuasively on this point. Even if population growth does, population growth does The medium term projections around 10 million people driven overwhelmingly by immigration. And it is for this reason that some kind of mechanism to manage migration, combined with reforms ensure that only genuinely high skilled applicants earning at thresholds can come to the UK.
This is about controlling so that population levels aligned with public sentiment, and consistent with The report underscores growth with housing and infrastructure. The government has pledged 1.5 million and while that is an important commitment, the report rightly notes that new supply will struggle to keep At this point, again was picked up by my noble friend Baroness Neville-rolfe. How house prices have already in part because demand has If the population grows by as some projections suggest, then 1.5 million homes alone will or alleviate overcrowding unless accompanied by strategic planning The report rightly highlights with strain already As the noble Baroness, waiting lists remain above projections make clear that an additional 10 million would exceed would further exacerbate pressures.
As the report notes, increases demand for healthcare. While the fiscal contributions depending on skill level and integration, we need to shift our immigration high contributing migrants investing in domestic training. This is particularly the case social care and essential At present, over 20 000 year do not secure Yet we continue to rely trained staff to fill NHS vacancies. This is not sustainable. We need to expand domestic capacity and apprenticeships, ensuring that young people in that are desperately needed on welfare.
The report emphasises the importance noting that population growth pressures on the welfare Indeed, depending on the composition it can worsen them and that is why we must prioritise prioritise making work pay, incentives for labour My Lords, this report paints a picture of a country at a demographic crossroads. As the noble Lord, Lord there is no doubt that if we continue relying on immigration as we will face mounting housing, infrastructure Although my noble friend Lord case for robots to swerve we need to consider more carefully how we manage migration with focus on selective, high skill immigration, welfare reform and a coherent long term housing and infrastructure strategy.
So I ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, directly to explain how a long term demographic strategy Will the government ensure inform policy across departments, from housing and transport And will they finally accept the default solution to labour My Lords, there can be no both the current challenges our country faces and the country our we cannot shy away from these issues. We must consider and have an answer to we intend to reduce our and focus much more on increasing and building a sustainable economy.
These are just some of the key challenges and questions which the government faces. It is not possible to reflect highlighted in the report but I am pleased that noble Lords these themes and core challenges to such as the environmental factors referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the fertility issues raised and especially the strains on a number of noble Lords such the Lord Bishop of Leicester, my demonstrated by my noble As my as my noble friend Lord Hodgson.
Highlights in the foreword of his report. The British have been repeatedly parties of all stripes which a limited number of highly a policy with which few would disagree. Instead, they have seen of primarily low, low, The debate today has been why we have seen those with their consequential on in the past, and most importantly, to ask ourselves what to put us on the right Looking to the recommendations, a twin track approach with on government alongside a new objectives and provide I entirely accept that demographic policy currently lacks coherence with responsibility the Department of Education, each one pursuing its own objectives We have a system that is The report recommends that the government should be required to monitor and disclose the likely change in the near and long term.
This touches on a point of real concern It was a little over two weeks Lord Jackson of Peterborough, forced Ministers to review of students who have had criminality during Border security, asylum The government initially that data on issues as The government should be seeking to build greater trust with the British people, and refusing to publish data So can the noble Baroness, the Minister. Please reassure your Lordships House that the government will take a more positive attitude towards requests And while we are on the issue of data, I would briefly mention that my right hon.
Friend Nick Timothy MP, asked Ministers last month if data on the economic contributions in line with the Danish model. The Minister refused as better data and greater I hope the noble Baroness, the Minister, will be able to give us an assurance reviewing the current to with a view to improving transparency. The report includes a recommendation for a new authority called the office for Demographic Change or Office My noble friend is right consider our existing structures for monitoring immigration not to mention immigration, which is of such concern to leave the country are our wealth creators and high skilled young We do need the right and reporting so that Parliament, and in turn, the British people, have the information they about the future of demographic about the future of demographic policy, the importance of long term monitoring was brilliantly explained by my I am personally always skeptical of the creation of new NPS, as over time, public bodies often come to establish and I would be interested friend how he would plan But there is certainly a strong My Lords, my noble friend is Ministers must be held to account, and we should continue to explore by which we can hold on the future demography of our country.
Finally, it only remains to congratulate my noble friend on securing this debate on the day that he has chosen The debate, which has the core challenges we face as a nation, is a testament to his a brighter future for our country. As a devoted public servant, I know
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wishing in wishing him all Outside your Lordships House. My Lords, I thank the noble Lord,
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My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, The report, Don't Stop The report, Don't Stop is a timely contribution to our prosperity and the future of prosperity and the future of Many noble Lords have already highlighted the noble Lords distinguished career, the noble Lords distinguished career, and I would like to add my thanks for his public service and for his notable contributions to my County of The My Lords, the report highlights our nation is currently experiencing.
But before I touch on also reassure the noble that I will respond to and I will reflect on some of and answer some of the questions been raised and will, as ever, write. But I would appreciate this has discussion and debate. I also should highlight to the noble Lord that before the general election, my boss was Sir Trevor Phillips, who he cited so I could a great deal of trouble by My Lords, this government recognises in this document the strain on our NHS, the impact and the importance of maintaining We are not alone in As the report notes, through its many countries across the world are Before I move on to there are a couple of points I'd like to make in response to the noble Lord, Lord Horam, who raised and Staffordshire and where My Lord, I am well versed.
Having helped to lead the campaign and even and only this week, the now former leader of my county council had to Staffordshire County Council had to resign for his support of white My Lord, I am aware of what is at As the Prime Minister has for the values which govern our country, and it's incredibly important And with response to Baroness very powerful speech like her, I would suggest. That's why both the noble Lady And she ensured that to fight back against racism and that and that those of who I was and not what I did.
However, I think my I went on my first demo Moving to the report in front of us. My Lords, I'd like to address some of And and the points that noble Lords This government has a system which works in attract attracting while being fair and firm. The modern challenges can present do not overwrite the millions of individual stories of people who have come to this country over the centuries, built our nation in partnership with those already here and today are our colleagues, our neighbours, our My Lords, I am here because and found sanctuary in our great country.
It was a brave decision which they were to flee But the scale of pogroms and I am very grateful that Now, since taking office, this action to reduce the number particularly in some of Our recent tightening of the rules and the review of the graduate the government's commitment to However, fair migration. Fair management of migration We must also address the consequences of population change already in the system, as outlined by the report's Given the request for which I will come to later in my speech, I think it would be helpful to that the latest figures estimate in the year to July to June, a fall If we're going to talk about data, we should also absolutely be Turning to some of the points In response to the noble the and the issue of asylum seekers, the government has published a new significant reforms to the UK's The statement outlines the government's objectives package of measures to fairness and public Elements of this include.
Refugee status will be temporary, granted for 13 months Settlement will no longer be automatic. Instead, there will be a 20 year ensuring long term Refugees will be able to switch route to access family reunion with new fees and conditions, in accordance with This will enable them to time before they can settle both enabled and the noble Lord Stoneham from slightly different positions, I'd suggest, touched on the Noble Lords will be aware that only accompanied by my noble addressed the Council of Europe's Ministers in Strasbourg to talk to make sure that the ECHR with regards to illegal migration, and to secure the convention's future with regard to immigration and the effect on GDP raised by the noble Lord, Lord MP and the noble Lady Baroness Finn.
The UK's immigration system is and accessing highly who boost the supply of skills These individuals are the most and that is why the government has access to our highly talented visa system back towards attracting The government is clear that fall from the very high We plan to achieve this by reducing lower skilled migration and groups with lower participation in the labour And the noble Baroness also raised the issues of skills and productivity. Increasing skills in is responsible and provides the opportunity for and improve their quality of life through short courses funded by the Growth and Skills Levy and partnership Skills England will work in to support clearer landscape and training products The Department for Work with employers to fill the vacancies.
They have to get the right or set them on the path to Turning to the issue of work MP since the introduction of the salary requirements must be paid whatever is higher out of the general threshold for the route or the going rate for that occupation. With an absolute minimum an overseas worker has to be paid. This is designed to place maintaining access to but also ensuring UK resident something he would expect The government is clear that cannot be a cheap alternative to fair pay, and this must be reflected in future On that point, I'd also like to who raised a series of interesting and I will reflect on his comments, Given the subject of this report, he My Lords, I have about tomorrow in front of me, and I am very disappointed Lords have not used Turning to the point of international visas to work visas raised by the government's approach and visa controls to skills so that immigration is not training or tackling workforce This approach will be important of the government's broader agenda.
My Lords, moving from the UK has experienced a sustained economic and technological change which, alongside 14 years of Tory austerity, has put increased pressure on public We have seen tension, frustration manifested in the most in I should at this point put on record Where Social, as well as CST, where social cohesion Counter-extremism work were my core roles. I would like to reassure these issues are being and especially reassure the Bishop of Leicester, that this is key to what we seek to do.
The Ministry of Housing, Government is coordinating efforts to consider a longer term, more strategic approach working in partnership communities and stakeholders complex deep seated issues in our places. As the right reverend this is a whole society approach. As part of our Pride in Place strategy, we are providing up to £5 billion over ten years to support over 330 communities across the country, helping to build strong, resilient I want to put on record city of Stoke on Trent are participants, including in my husband's you know, just for the record, will each receive up to £20 Our long term investment is designed but also to rebuild social capital and strengthen community ties in areas with a portion of funding expected to Importantly, we are empowering communities to make decisions that shape their places.
We will continue to seek ways working in partnership with local Moving on to a consistent theme of today pressure on public services and housing. My Lords, the ten year health set out a vision for how the government will make an NHS fit for the future. The plan set a clear and stakeholders and the public on the future shape of care through three radical shifts hospital to community, analog to digital Specifically, as was raised by. I still want to call her my noble friend, even though she's Engaged workforce is central to delivering the government's objectives for the NHS.
The ten year health plan, set out the vision for how the government will make the NHS fit for the future. A new workforce plan will be how the workforce will be to deliver the ten year health plan, where they should be deployed This includes how staff have better training The new workforce plan will be with the skills needed to enable Building on that point, as was raised NHS England will shortly phase of the Medical Education working with partners to design a package of reforms that will provide doctors with the skills they need to of our patients within a modern NHS.
This includes work focused on procedural, to ensure rapid acquisition a and to develop a curricula that delivers the skills needed for a community based, digitally enabled healthcare system. My Lords, moving on to as noble Lords have recognised, delivering 1.5 million This Parliament as set out We have already taken urgent reforms and a record to kick start social at scale across the country, my Lord. Houses are homes which anchor communities. It is vital the homes are well designed and in places where we will ensure that we build.
What we build is supported by Well designed place making, working housing associations and the wider sector. Moving on to employment by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville Rolfe. Professor Harper's an ageing UK workforce is People in the UK are living longer, the age of 50 in the workforce is growing only look at your Lordships House. Good work and careers have wellbeing and financial resilience. Work gives people purpose and an important means particularly important for people who experience loneliness in later life.
As the right reverend Prelate highlighted, our focus is on lifelong learning, upskilling and incentivising longer, healthier working lives to maximise the potential of our domestic workforce. The DWP currently offers for all ages through its network of jobcentres across the UK and through contracted employment programmes. In addition, work coaches plus champions working across Champions provide a critical layer to ensure the needs of My Lords, I have many points weren't very many points So I will write to who was the main person to raise it.
Moving on to security, where My Lords, Professor Clark, worked with when he acted as an adviser to the House of Commons Defence Select Committee and who is a great analyst, addresses two areas of the state from external threats He focuses in particular and on threats to national from state directed subthreshold warfare. At this point, I should refer to As with my noble friend Baroness Stewart, I am also an honorary And while and while we are relating to my to well just a quick response to to reassure him that the both the type 26 and the type 31 frigates currently being built And to reassure the noble Lord, when I did go and check with who usually sits in front of him.
As Lord Stoneham emphasised the issues of security are key and and affect in part of are outside of our immediate scope. These are both important aspects Our National Security sets out the government's Its objectives include and making the UK a harder and for gangs engaged But beyond our borders, we must consider the effects of the very changes which will take place in other The strategy is clear that we are entering a period of significant Demographic change will issues with challenging As we set out in the strategy, our statecraft will need to ensuring we can defend our supply chains from increased competition, improving our resilience strengthening our key alliances to tackle together Noble Baroness lady Stewart what's in the national security strategy, so I won't read out we I'm trying to make My Lords, in terms of how we legislate, which was raised by the noble in terms of Henry VIII following on from previous I want to reassure your the Parliamentary Business and Legislation Committee will review every single There are circumstances bills to contain substantial but departments with bills powers must produce detailing each power and which is published on on.
On. Introduction. Noble Lords are aware that we are volume that had previously been My Lords, moving on to the lack of data to understand trade offs and what is happening on migration raised Baroness Noble, Baroness Lady Forecasting net migration The impact of external events, as well as uncertain policy measures on migration trends, make future migration hard to predict. Not all impacts of migration as set out by the Migration Advisory Committee in their While there is significant body that high skilled immigrants there remains a lack of evidence wider impacts on productivity, The ONS is making more data in its estimates for net migration.
The ONS keeps published estimates with estimates in the last 12 The revisions published primarily due to changes which have led to improvements although the numbers have changed, the overall trend for net The Home Office are continuing In May 25th, the Home Office linking sponsored work with HMRC pay data the earnings and tax But I appreciate that not Lords are covered there, I'm going to slightly over apologies. The key recommendations the creation of a new body that would provide a commentary on to undertake research into demographic transparent forum to these challenges were The government has made strengthen the Migration to deliver several key a new remit with a new group to support a more joined up approach to migration and labour market policy.
The Labour Market Evidence Group consists of the Migration Advisory Committee, the Industrial Strategy the Department for Work and Pensions, Skills England and Equivalent the devolved governments as set out The Labour Market Evidence Group has an ongoing standard function to work together to gather and share evidence training levels and participation including a devolved and regional levels. It will focus on sectors, which are central to industrial strategy, which currently have high levels their workforce or which are and will make recommendations where workforce strategies are needed, or where the labour market My Lords, this report is a timely House and across all parties to The people of this country a government that plans for tomorrow.
We are committed to taking action now providing the clear leadership planning that the British people deserve. I want to thank the noble Lord, and for the opportunity to debate And in the words of Fleetwood Mac, who I assume he is very fond
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I wish him well in his retirement. My Lord. It's been a long, and I'm extremely grateful to and I'm extremely grateful to For the people who said Well, thank you very much. Well, thank you very much. Not very deserved, but it's very kind. What was really encouraging for What was really encouraging for suggestions about how the ODC suggestions about how the ODC could be made more appropriate, and that's what I'm really interested in, is getting this conversation get something important into the public consciousness that we are aware of and are tackling this problem head on.
And I think the only problem there isn't a problem because and we do need to face up to it. If I could just just pick up because I'm aware we've I did want to thank my noble Lord Green of Deddington, who's been on this for a long time. My noble friend, Lord Horam, who I was hoping to hear from, It went sideways. And of course, I hadn't a hidden long march in who'd been at it for 53 years, apparently. That's very good.
So can I ask him to come in I think it's important that about how these are my noble friend, Baroness Neville Rolfe raised the impact on older people. 30% of people aged over Now, can that be a good and useful way for us as a society to be behaving? And I thought the right reverend Prelate Bishop of Leicester for the first time, for the first time from that bench, What? He said, there is a question about Really, really important to make because in Let's have safe and legal routes they're coming from And I really I really appreciate support.
What he said. Then my, my roommate, me on the straight as we've seen his legal to ferret a problem in no time at all. And finally, my noble well worthy guerrilla fighter. But unfortunately, the guerrillas had to get back to the hills, didn't they? Because we couldn't get the colleagues in the Commons to pick up But the background to it, my Lords, is that the executive is taking part, the expense of the legislature And when we had we had our, our, noble Lord, Lord Collins of Hybrid, my great friend used to nod benches about how he had Now that he's on the other side somehow.
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I'm not sure we can quite do it that way. So I want, I think we there's but it has to be done from here, from the backbenches, and it without which the Commons will say. Or the government will say. This is the unelected the elected Commons how to do their work. That's game over. Once that, once that, that's a dog So, my Lords, I'd like to thank I'd like to finish it with with one When I, when I was younger, I went and we used to have people come to tell us something about So we had a concert On this particular occasion, we had management and how that was key And he introduced to us a man who was the first Afro American The Mississippi Delta found scrape a living out of cotton If you grow cotton out of it was depleted and you did break crops such as sweet potatoes and peanuts.
But he wasn't just an agronomist. He had a he was a philosopher. And that day, 60 years ago, we And I'd like to use those He said, This is Mr. Carver's words. How far you go in life depends on compassionate with the old, sympathetic with the striving Because someday you will And with that, my Lords, I take my leave.
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The question is that as many of that opinion shall say,
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as many of that opinion shall say, content and the contrary, not My Lords, I beg to move
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My Lords, I beg to move That the House do now adjourn.
Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)
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The. First oral question. Lord Pitkeathley of Camden Town.
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Lord Pitkeathley of Camden Town. Lord Watts I beg leave standing on the Order Paper in my name, standing on the Order Paper in my name, and draw the House's attention
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and draw the House's attention My Lords, it's with some trepidation. We answer a question from We answer a question from experience in the subject and I thank him for the work supporting the mayor to deliver 50, and particularly for his work This government recognises Business Improvement districts can play in supporting local our high streets and town centres. In the Pride in Place strategy we committed to raising making them more transparent consulting on the ballot to expand property owner
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and further details of those I thank my noble friend,
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I thank my noble friend, does the English Devolution does the English Devolution Bill offer an opportunity the role of business improvement districts the role of business improvement districts within the devolved economic development frameworks so they can play a fuller part in accelerating town centre renewal? in accelerating town centre renewal? And within this, does the government as she's already alluded to, a distinct and autonomous state to support more effective
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Bid reform isn't Devolution Community Empowerment Bill. However, the pride in Place However, the pride in Place to give property owners local priorities by expanding local priorities by expanding of London as soon as Landlords will be able tenants and communities tenants and communities streets and support growth We are aware of calls We are aware of calls to operate separately from occupier bids, and the policy is currently being Further details will be Fatality sector is the backbone of Does the noble Baroness, We have produced a great deal of including those on our high streets.
The Chancellor announced to business rates in the budget recently, and in our small business plan, there are a number of steps which small businesses who operate including helping to address them to Create a licensing regime of hospitality and night time economies, and to enable them with local as well as addressing behaviour in our high streets, which we know is a blight
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My Lords, does the Minister culture in the round is culture in the round is Has she seen the report Improving Places produced by the Mayor of London, produced by the Mayor of London, the Arts Council which details through case studies which details through case studies artists studios to wider community events. This is so important for This is so important for and being an essential part Yes.
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Well, I agree with the noble Lord. I haven't seen the report he refers I haven't seen the report he refers And as we I'm sure as we discuss and Community Empowerment Bill will have and Community Empowerment Bill will have lots of discussion about as they promote arts as they promote arts And we have, as the noble And we have, as the noble we are extending to both register assets of community value and then giving them a longer the necessary steps to empower them So we are taking those steps.
We do understand assets on our high streets So as we discuss this in the bill, I'm sure he will be working with
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The question by Baroness Pidgeon The Minister is aware that of town centres and urban regeneration. of town centres and urban regeneration. So why did the Chancellor So much so that hundreds are now banning So much so that hundreds are now banning Labour MPs from going into them.
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Labour MPs from going into them. Well, as I've already said, the Chancellor announced the Chancellor announced high street businesses as including steps on business rates, and we are all focussed we can to support including the licensed trade, So I I'm sure that as we as those steps begin to take hold in our communities, we will see that hospitality in the heart of our town
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My Lords. My Lords recognised. That we have to
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That we have to and we had a select Committee report on the built environment quite recently, the built environment quite recently, which set out a number of different and one of the most successful and one of the most successful sure that we have more public sure that we have more public housing, offices, the things inevitably directed via digital use now. And yet they are desperately people rather than use digital centres. I know, having argued with my own how relieved I was to talk to somebody So I, you know, these all this can be done quite easily and it would revitalise
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the high street in a way benefit communities of all ages as well. I absolutely agree and one of the benefits of local and one of the benefits of local So we are very familiar with that. So we are very familiar with that. And as I agree with her public and private sector when I took part in when I took part in we were very keen to make sure buildings in our town centre but also encouraging with a huge diversity of we know there's been streets and we need to fostering vibrant town centres, making sure there are amenities, services, green spaces, a cultural offer
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My Lords, my my Lords, the Minister. It is nonsense to say has helped the hospitality industry. has helped the hospitality industry. The industry is up in done is to increase done is to increase to increase the cost of and actually to damage it considerably. and actually to damage it considerably. And to say that somehow have helped is just, frankly, not true.
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have helped is just, frankly, not true. Well, the Chancellor sure that our small I said, we've produced which has a huge number of measures and we continue to work sector to make sure that we are, first of all, finding out what's
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but also to make sure for the improvements My Lords, has the noble Baroness,
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My Lords, has the noble Baroness, the Minister considered the significance of historic church buildings of historic church buildings For instance, in my diocese, Newark has not only repaired Newark has not only repaired but significantly developed the town's but significantly developed the town's There is uncertainty for VAT relief for the listed churches. The cap that was introduced long planned projects around the country. So can I ask what assessment Government made of the impact of this and of continuing the scheme beyond
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March next year, without the cap? Well, I greatly value the place.
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Well, I greatly value the place. Our religious buildings Our religious buildings play in our public spaces, and the right reverend to some of the development to some of the development The pride in place strategy 5 billion over ten years 5 billion over ten years and that means that our communities their neighbourhoods in And they will. We will deliver 20 million to be spent by the local and we are encouraging all including community in those boards, to drive local renewal.
And then we'll have a separate which will deliver a cash injection
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95 places to be spent to improve My Lords crossbench. Lord Ashcombe, the noble Baroness can.
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Lord Ashcombe, the noble Baroness can. Confirm that the public
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Confirm that the public While business improvement
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While business improvement and we thank them to revise Despite the answers from many of them are facing Business rates are rising. Employers are dealing with higher and the freeze in personal tax thresholds. Compound pressures on local workers. And this, coupled with costly May I ask the Minister, please? Does the government believe of rising costs and administrative upheaval is helping or hindering town And what assessment has the government issues that these measures are Well, the local government will create more resilient who will be able to support sure that they are developing of activity we've provided in to make sure that community are being supported and they're them in a way that's right And, you know, it's get local government on It's been absolutely denuded of So I'm not taking any lessons government from the Tory because it's really government on a firm so that they can be able to support felt that their high streets have
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Second order question I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.
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Standing in my name on the Order Paper. There are long standing intelligence. And law enforcement frameworks between the UK and its Five Eyes partners, the UK and its Five Eyes partners, which are the US, Australia, Those frameworks continue. Those frameworks continue. It is the long standing governments not to comment on the detail of intelligence matters, the detail of intelligence matters, I can say that the Foreign
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of State have both To my noble friend for that response.
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To my noble friend for that response. But but one particular issue, which But but one particular issue, which and that is the American and that is the American boats in the Caribbean and the Pacific. attacks on civilian ships and 19 attacks, most of which people believe are Now, my Lords, there's often quite a lot of UK personnel on American ships, and they could be implicated So has my noble friend considered personnel from these ships
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I can say to my noble friend that with regard to the strikes that have been recently taking place at been recently taking place at We're committed to fighting the scourge of drugs and organised crime with our partners in Latin America in our partners in Latin America in But I repeat for him,
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But I repeat for him, Intelligence sharing is. Obviously essential to
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Obviously essential to But if an ally leaks information or uses it does that not require autonomous intelligence
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less dependence on others, with other trusted partners? Yeah. I think it's important to
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I think it's important to the UK does independently the UK does independently but I'd just say to him that the Five Eyes partners of the UK, Australia, Canada and New Australia, Canada and New intelligence gathering partners and the UK is better and more
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and the UK is better and more Yeah. A reassurance on and I also commend the Minister on her versatility and adaptability We all know the feeling well. My specific question is which will take place in Canada between the Secretary of State and the Secretary of State from the United States in light of the national Security strategy, which the United States What assessment has His Majesty's particularly as we go forward with over
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100 conflicts raging around the world? I'm grateful for
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I'm grateful for in in taking on a number of issues today. Can I say to him that the US strategy, Can I say to him that the US strategy, which I've seen earlier this week, is a matter for the US government, but self-evidently the United but self-evidently the United and support where there And as the noble Lord would And as the noble Lord would the Prime Minister has met with the Ukrainian president look at the challenges And I believe very strongly that where we increase defence expenditure in Europe and at the same time partners on key issues,
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It is for the Americans to It is for us to determine ours. My Lords, my noble.
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My Lords, my noble. Friend was on Committee when. The committee looked at detainee,
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The committee looked at detainee, detainee mistreatment detainee mistreatment That report led to the government of the day reviewing the day reviewing which led to the full force principles, which is very clear that we if it leads to extrajudicial killing, could he confirm that those principles understood not only by our security And can I show the house? I haven't been in Washington this week. The intelligence sharing
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Well, again, I'm grateful to me of my time on the Intelligence me of my time on the Intelligence and I'm grateful to him Now he's articulated Now he's articulated I say to him that he will I say to him that he will comment on the details but the UK will commit and retain its
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but the UK will commit and retain its legal responsibilities in that field. My Lords, when the government. Took the political decision to recognise the Palestinian state in the Israeli government said at that reducing or stopping intelligence Has the government made damage that that would give to the UK?
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Well, I believe that we have common interests with the Israeli government interests with the Israeli government and we should try to maintain What they do and how they What they do and how they I think it's important that we have and information sharing with and information sharing with and the Five Eyes is But self-evidently, where But self-evidently, where other parties would wish to share And I would hope that to recognise a Palestinian state does not impact upon the ability
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should they exist. My Lord, I thank
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My Lord, I thank for the clarifications he's made for the clarifications he's made Can the noble Lord, the Minister, Can the noble Lord, the Minister, confirm that the United Kingdom the Caribbean area so as to the Caribbean area so as to the scourge of the drug
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I can assure the noble the area does fall within the area does fall within in this particular question. And there are a number of areas And there are a number of areas particularly with is working in partnership, looking at how we can support the reduction of drugs, we can support the reduction of drugs, the reduction of gang activity the reduction of gang activity between overseas territories And we have a very strong partnership with the United States on And where there are we are even now looking at how we can support those overseas territories, particularly who have a British
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to ensure that we take that fight Question Lord Clement-Jones.
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Question Lord Clement-Jones. My Lords. I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper.
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Standing in my name on the Order Paper. The government takes abuse of online advertising abuse of online advertising distribute malware All social media platforms All social media platforms driving out fraudulent activity the largest social media to address fraudulent But I say to the noble Lord, more can be done and further in the government's
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for which I am responsible. My Lords, we are facing
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My Lords, we are facing sophisticated AI generated scams. Yet despite what the Minister has said, Ofcom's updated roadmap has Ofcom's updated roadmap has on the Codes of Practice for on the Codes of Practice for meaning new online safety protections are unlikely to be fully enforced until 2027. My Lords, given the rapid what steps is the government as a designated as the fraud Minister? As I understand it, my the vital protections provided and will the government action against all scam advertising
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is included in the fraud strategy I'm grateful to the noble Lord.
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I'm grateful to the noble Lord. I met with Ofcom recently, that he's laid before that he's laid before but that Ofcom themselves wish to but that Ofcom themselves wish to they can bring into power that I will be producing early in the new I will be producing early in the new The previous government had We've updated that it's taken but the fraud strategy will look of which the emergence of AI AI will be one key aspect And I hope that I can in relatively short order in the New Year.
The fraud strategy for consideration, for discussion and for implementation.
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Does the Minister agree with me? One of the things. That's becoming increasingly
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That's becoming increasingly there are a number of huge there are a number of huge huge numbers of almost huge numbers of almost Is the new fraud strategy going some of those international some of those international and is the is the noble my noble friend, the Minister liaising with some of those countries where we know that that is a really
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I'm grateful to my In the. The government has already signed with The government has already signed with a United Nations resolution against fraud. We're hosting a conference We're hosting a conference in Vienna to try to bring action on the very issues that my noble action on the very issues that my noble friend has mentioned independently. I went to Nigeria in April of I went to Nigeria in April of with the Nigerian government The right. My right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister has and we're intending to try to expand It's absolutely vital that we to tackle areas where very often against the will
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My Lords. Fraud is not falling
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Fraud is not falling that have been put into it so far. The NCAA, the National Crime Agency, estimates that 67% of estimates that 67% of And it says, and I quote, the key facilitator of the key facilitator of and social media platforms and telecoms and social media platforms and telecoms are the main routes that fraud comes to this country from overseas to by the noble Lady, Lady Jones. At the moment, banks pick up the full cost of reimbursing fraud victims and banks do have a key role in preventing fraud, but they are not the facilitators of it.
Surely the time has come to and telecom companies pay their share of the losses that people
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the use of from their It. I'm grateful to the noble Lord.
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I'm grateful to the noble Lord. He is absolutely right that the banks are effectively subsidising fraud results effectively subsidising fraud results and are leading to of fraud that has taken place. of fraud that has taken place. But as he is also right, that which is around 44% of all which is around 44% of all telecom and telecommunication companies. We've recently established a brand new fraud charter with telecom companies, which I believe will, over the next 12 months, reduce fraud via telephone communication significantly.
In the fraud strategy, we will be for reducing fraud through and also through such as Facebook and others, which are a significant gateway to fraud. He's absolutely right, but matters as part of
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Does the Minister agree with me? Sorry. Could the Minister tell
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Could the Minister tell is doing around protecting I've been contacted by I've been contacted by people who found themselves caught up in money laundering. caught up in money laundering. They sent a message saying could The money is exchanged equitably The money is exchanged equitably but then it's then and found out to be money laundering, an offence they can never remove from their from their from their history. So is it is there a piece of work that
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do around protecting young The noble Lord is absolutely right. It's an area where the government has It's an area where the government has accepted that there is a challenge. There are resources going into There are resources going into particularly targeted for them to avoid money laundering. for them to avoid money laundering. I visited a scheme, as it happens, in my home area of North where educational opportunities where educational opportunities by regional organised with students to explain works and how they can become victims of money laundering without they're involved in money laundering.
So there's a great educational opportunity and we're trying to work through that.
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But self-evidently I will continue Government ensure. That the new fraud strategy leads
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That the new fraud strategy leads cases that are properly cases that are properly and will the government make and will the government make be judged not by the volume but by the conviction secured but by the conviction secured opened and the charge is made?
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The noble Lady is absolutely right. And one of the things, again, trailing the fraud strategy trailing the fraud strategy is to ensure that we have better criminal justice outcomes for investigations. justice outcomes for investigations. We're just starting. And again, this will become has produced a better journey has produced a better journey both in terms of reporting, and getting to criminal justice outcomes. and getting to criminal justice outcomes. There's a real wish by the National and the Serious Fraud Office to look at how we can bring criminals to justice.
And there's already been taking place where we've seized assets, brought people to court, It's absolutely vital that place possible for fraudsters to operate. And that means not just protection, in telecom and telecommunication but also putting an element of
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to ensure that they end up behind Lord Soames the Minister
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Lord Soames the Minister the regulators often periods to do nothing and the general
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periods to do nothing and the general public want action, not consultation. Yes. I think it's important I say this to my
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I think it's important I say this to my noble friend in the spirit of camaraderie, that we get these things right, that we get these things right, and sometimes there are issues which There is a wish. If he's referring to the question which the noble Lord Clement-Jones raised, there is a wish for Ofcom to get it right, and there is a wish for them they do is legally secure and I want to give them But the direction of that fraudulent adverts are taken down, and that fraudulent adverts
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the very issues that other noble Researched by the.
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Researched by the. UK Safer Internet Centre half of 8 to 17 year olds half of 8 to 17 year olds with 79% of that age group having come across online scams at least monthly. across online scams at least monthly. What action is the impact of scamming
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the impact of scamming who appear to be particularly at risk? I think there are two areas Number one is education. All of us are the first port and that means we, all of need to know to watch out and to watch out for what those And that goes back to, again, the noble Lords point We need to ensure that we into into the curriculum But actually, it's not just us who have to have a role in stopping scams.
It ultimately is the state to track down the scammers, to put protective measures in And that goes back to us ensuring and the platforms very clearly taking so that young people in particular are not drawn into what would end up being a cost to them and very damaging to their mental health as well as their financial health.
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Fourth oral question My Lords, I beg leave
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My Lords, I beg leave Standing my name on the Order Paper.
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Standing my name on the Order Paper. Oh, I've not finished yet,
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Oh, I've not finished yet, The Home Office is committed regarding the intelligence regarding the intelligence Police for the Aston Villa match to ensure full independent scrutiny. The Home Secretary has commissioned His Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, Fire and Rescue Services to inspect how police forces in England and Wales provide risk assessment advice with an initial report Tel Aviv versus Aston Villa match.
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My Lords, I admire my Particularly considering
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Particularly considering But my Lords, he will the decision of the Safety the decision of the Safety the Maccabi fans coming to but it seems to have been but it seems to have been evidence from the West In the first case, it relied on In the first case, it relied on them about their experience in which the Dutch police and it seemed to have a zoom and unmonitored zoom call. Then, My Lords, a football actually turned out never to be played.
And there is the thinking And third, my Lords at the Home Affairs Select Committee only a few days ago, the West Midlands Police Jewish community supported the ban. My Lords, that was a mistake and My Lords, I think we've there is considerable of the leadership of force and I would say to the government, I understand all these reports
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my Lords, I think action I'm grateful to to my noble friend. Let me say to him, first Let me say to him, first The police and Crime Commissioner for to the people of the West to the people of the West And the Chief Constable of to the Police and Crime to the Police and Crime I say this genuinely, locally I say this genuinely, locally or not they wish to take In the light of those interesting what we have done as the Home Office and what the Home Secretary has done, is to ensure that on the 27th of November, we have asked for an urgent report on the intelligence received that my noble friend has mentioned, and we've asked to have that done via His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, and we've asked for it to be done for us by the 31st of December so that we can get to the bottom of what was said and what information led to what was said.
And I think, if I may, it's the outcome of the report that I comment in detail on any that have been made around this. And separately, the Home Affairs at this issue and will produce The my.
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Lord, my Lord, my Lords. Was based on fake evidence.
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Was based on fake evidence. But it's not just a local matter. I've made a list of I've made a list of this Prime Minister has said, I quote, we will not tolerate anti-Semitism we will not tolerate anti-Semitism But they do. He does more so than any other government. He does more so than any other government. I remember in recent years, it's time the police that they should not prioritise the supposed interests of violent, unreasonable, anti-Israel politicians and mobs over the peaceful majority.
Whether it's football or protests.
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Well, let me, in refute exactly what refute exactly what This Prime Minister is committed to tackling anti-Semitism, to tackling anti-Semitism, and to making sure that we do And he's doing so in a way And he's doing so in a way allows for people who and the performance of the Israeli state and the performance of the Israeli state to give their protest in a peaceful way. And if she looks at the Police we're putting in a range of where they impact upon the community, of whatever community in a particular way.
But I say to her now that she's and I accept those issues, which is why we've asked Inspectorate to look as well as the specific allegations that my noble friend has referred to, so that we can look at whether we can
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group assessments in the areas My conservative. Lord Woodley to to the Minister,
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Lord Woodley to to the Minister, for police leaders in the West for police leaders in the West As the noble Lord has said, with As the noble Lord has said, with they have lied, lied to they have lied, lied to Basically, they have yielded to to use footballing parlance, if I may, how can the noble Lord, the Minister, have any confidence in and Assistant Chief Constable O'Hara,
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as Nick Timothy has said Yeah. I'm grateful and Any suggestion that intelligence Any suggestion that intelligence engagement led by Westminster, was anything other than was anything other than would be a matter of great concern. But I hope he will accept that. The Home Secretary has understood that The Home Secretary has understood that concern and has commissioned a report, and I think it is fair and proper and I think it is fair and proper of that report before we take And I refer him back to my earlier answer.
When the Chief Constable and they are accountable to And a very significant step for certainly before we've had
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in the report, we've commissioned. My Lord. My Lords. My Lords, we have
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My Lords, we have times now and it all seems to be coming back to bad intelligence being be coming back to bad intelligence being leading to bad policy decisions. The Minister has said that The Minister has said that Can he assure us that we will be Can he assure us that we will be so we can make sure this is not repeated? That is the essential thing. Can we have assurances that we
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in the future so that Yeah. First of all, just Lord on the announcement yesterday Lord on the announcement yesterday of his of his retention in I think I've said already, I think I've said already, that the Home Office has It's commissioned a report It's commissioned a report surrounding the Maccabi Aston Villa match and Villa match and eloquently put to the House today. But we've also asked for a report on the wider issues that the noble Again, I can comment, I could but I think it's better for the 31st of March that and the conclusions of
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with the House for comment, My Lords, the times has
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My Lords, the times has at the Birmingham Safety at the Birmingham Safety and that UEFA advised that the Villa Is my noble friend the Minister Is my noble friend the Minister can he urgently write whether they did attend whether they did attend either online or in person,
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offered about the viability of the game. I'm grateful to my noble friend.
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I'm grateful to my noble friend. I hope I can help her by and this is my understanding and this is my understanding is that UEFA were not directly but were involved in but were involved in regarding the admission of fans. Now, what those wider discussions were, the Home Office was not party to. the Home Office was not party to. But again, I hope that which I've already indicated to my will examine that, and the policing Minister herself Affairs Select Committee that around the role of the Safety events of national
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And again, whether we have on those matters will be My Lords, the. Obviously I think Lord
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Obviously I think Lord To raise this. Issue because I become confused. About the source of intelligence.
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About the source of intelligence. And the quality of it particularly because the outcome particularly because the outcome from visiting the UK and stopped from particularly at the moment, particularly at the moment, Of course, this is a two part process. The police provide the intelligence and the Sports Safety Committee I'm not sure who's looking and the juxtaposition between safety committee banned away supporters. So would it be possible for at least in writing, when that happened? And who's looking into that them and also by the safety committee?
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I understand that again, Police Force area and the police and Crime Commissioner that they are Commissioner that they are review into what happened They're undertaking their own review. They're undertaking their own review. We have commissioned a review We have commissioned a review look at the issues surrounding including the Safety Advisory Group, including the Safety Advisory Group, and we're commissioning a report for the 31st of March on the wider issues of the Safety Advisory Group and how we can improve that performance in future.
I've heard what my what but I think if he'll again let me, When we have information And self- evidently, if noble they can do if they wish the 31st of March report They can do, and I have undoubtedly comments on both of those to
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My Lords, that concludes Any member wishing to leave
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Any member wishing to leave Yeah.
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Yeah. Lords. We now come to an instrument We now come to an instrument Immigration Skills Charge
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Immigration Skills Charge 2025 Lord Hanson of Flint. I beg to move the motion standing
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I beg to move the motion standing This motion be agreed to. As many as of that opinion will say. Content the country content. The contents have it. And before we come to the statement, I should remind the House that noble Lords should not refer to any specific cases currently before the courts, and that they should exercise caution cases that might subsequently in order not to prejudice Questions. In the statement made on Tuesday 9th of
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My Lords. This has been a long
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This has been a long a series of events that have the government has finally taken the government has finally taken the National Inquiry into the National Inquiry into I will not recount the absolute horrors Noble Lords will be well Noble Lords will be well The sentencing remarks from the appalling and vile abuse It is shameful that it took the government so long to get where they are today. It was all the way back in January, by these benches for the government The government at that time, smearing those urging In one of the numerous become a mainstay of The Home Secretary then be a full national inquiry, and it has taken us until appointed and the terms of This is deeply regrettable.
The government has appointed Lady Longfield, to chair the inquiry. Obviously she is a is. She is currently a Labour she will be resigning the Labour whip. But really, really is the noble Lord. The Minister, satisfied that for chair will have the support Not only this, but in her her role as chair of the Police it states that Zoe Billingham is She is one of three that So, My Lords, two out of three of the inquiry are directly So does the noble Lord.
The Minister think that sends It is clear to me that in the independence of the inquiry. This is even more important given have already signalled their So can the noble Lord. The Minister, absolutely will not shy away from investigating the links between and the mass rape of young girls? That is the crux of the matter. It is the deliberate cover to fears of racism that white girls being ignored the authorities that were The inquiry cannot lose sight of that. The terms of reference that that they will only until the date of and that it will not This makes it seem like these where the only concern is that we But my Lords, it is still happening.
How will the inquiry, address the concerns that young girls are still being abused and raped by gangs of men of mainly Pakistani origin? And finally, we still do not know and what criteria will be So can the noble Lord, the Minister will determine which local and how they will ensure and officials are not
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I look forward to what the noble Lord My Lords, earlier this year, Parliament discussed Baroness Parliament discussed Baroness of group based child sexual Her report brought her Her report brought her the issues around the appalling and the actions that need and the actions that need these execrable acts do not happen again, not least because government and other not least because government and other public bodies will do the right thing at the time to protect these children and hold the perpetrators to account.
And from these benches, this Many of the victims have said that they feel the communications with including proposals earlier candidates for the role of chair. All the survivors and victims and scandals repeat exactly If you don't work with us, which is distressing So can I ask the Minister what steps that the Home Secretary's choice the noble Lady Baroness survivors to overcome any I do appreciate that she the Labour Party for but the concerns of victims Despite the victims and our skills and commitment of Lady Longfield.
The statement talks about This is correct. As with the infected blood scandal, the Hillsborough disaster its government and public bodies about failures and a natural So whilst the inquiry will to the exploitation I would like to ask what plans the government the findings are not just but will they be fully embedded practice of every government And how will the government judge and the softer cultural audit and those that will come will change how children and is also truly supportive from the first to The terms of reference outlined in However, can I gently warm the Minister or recent inquiries have equally but as the detail of how it's going the survivors and victims have changed a bit and their So what will the government do to to ensure that that does not happen I have some other specific questions.
The statement says the government for information sharing Can the Minister say of the bills currently for example, the Children and Wellbeing Bill or the Crime and Policing Bill? That's interesting because the noble Lord, the Minister and I had a debate about another piece of legislation I do hope that that might be the case. And is it also possible Might just be crime Or the victims and courts bill that to change the law to ensure that And the Minister is very clear is the law and it must be that an advice to the CPS must be charged with rape The proposed changes to will be welcomed from these benches.
My noble friend Lady this problem with Lord so it's good to see that And very. Finally, I was slightly bemused by statement from DWP on safeguarding. I think it might have been quite helpful to actually call it what this is,
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the Child Grooming Gangs Inquiry. And I'm grateful to both noble Lords
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And I'm grateful to both noble Lords and Lady Brinton for their comments. Can I just start with the noble Can I just start with the noble I hope he wants this inquiry to I hope he wants this inquiry to I hope he will give us a fair wind. And we want to look at not And we want to look at not the last 15 months or 16 And what we have done in a clear inquiry with a £65 million budget, with a three year definitive target Now, to achieve some outcome, create further victims and we tackle the underlying causes allowed to operate in this but particularly, as is mentioned here, to examine particular that has been an aggravating factor in some of those particular instances.
So I hope he will give it a fair wind. He's asked about the membership the noble Lady Baroness Longfield I say to him, first of all, that a recommendation from the noble the noble Lady Baroness Longfield former chief executive That was a recommendation the Home Secretary to and Baroness Casey has chosen to the noble Lady Baroness commissioner for six years. She's devoted her life she's worked with charities, and she's worked with prime to deal with these issues Zoe Billingham herself is and is currently a chair brings deep expertise the chief executive of a local authority and has supported survivors of attacks and victims of so their party membership in the appointment of either individual.
Their experience, skills He's asked about the scope of the inquiry, and I think it is really important that we do say that the inquiry's are clear on a number of vital issues. It is focussed on child sexual It will consider explicitly including their ethnicity and religion, and it will look at specifically have failed to properly And it will do so without fear or favour. And I hope that answers again Baroness Brinton has also covered He says what? Why does this only start from now in terms of what's happened in the past? It happens what's happened in the past, because what happened in the past is subject to review and investigation.
He will know that it's not indeed Baroness Casey to look that is, for the police to the CPS and to take any action This is a historical examination, That is for the police. He's also asked, what are we doing now? Well, he spent many a pleasant hour with me on the police and crime bill, and he will know that this government of recommendations around which if I was being I would say his government in the two and a half recommendations lying on their desks.
We've put those things into play, and he knows that we will continue in that bill to ensure that measures in place to tackle those issues. He's asked whether it will I can say to him now that already said that she will begin to case because we did indicate earlier and we will look according to the issue, and the terms of reference are subject to consultation, which again goes to point. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, has mentioned for the 31st The noble Lady asked about We want victims engaged and to feel part of this process.
That is why one of happened this week since the appointments, is that Lady Longfield and survivors this week issues and how we take She wants to test, as we do, the terms of reference by the 31st of March And that is an important part of And again, we have engaged with victims. And one of the reasons getting a chair in place until now is that we've had to engage with we have their view on the proposed chair. And the noble Lady Baroness Casey the noble Lady Baroness Longfield And the first thing the chair Baroness Casey this week is to The noble Lady has asked a number of other points around the the state failing.
She will know that we is colloquially called which is going through Houses and that is an important way to pretend to prevent systemic failures in the future. She has also mentioned a number to the recommendations that We've accepted a number of We've looked at the issue of the audit. She's mentioned whether be brought forward and needs legislation. We're looking currently at legislation and in what But I give her the assurance at rectifying that gap by legislation, if need be, at the earliest She's mentioned, and I welcome that are being operated on My right hon.
Friend the Transport friend in this House, Lord Hendy, will be legislating shortly Community and Empowerment dangerous loophole in and we hope that will be The noble Lady will know the issue of child sexual and whether those children are And what we do with that. And while the law has protected abusers from the consequences of their crimes, it's too often punished victims. And we are looking again in the Crime and Policing Bill to disregard offences related to prostitution in particular, which we discussed earlier this week.
And also I just say to the noble Lady the noble Lord Davies of Gower has A couple of months back, we launched Operation Beacon Port, which is reviewing closed cases already flagged 1200 cases for 200 of those cases are high There are evil men out there They will not be sleeping because they will know that will follow that evidence, and will ensure that they are brought to justice. And we will look at continually against others who are before I think there have been failings.
Let's let's not get away from this. There have been failings, but grappling with those issues is and I hope that all members of to successfully participating the terms of reference are finally and that when we get reports Going back to what the noble I think it's fair that we say we have to judge those recommendations at the time. That will be three years hence, but that doesn't mean we're And it also doesn't mean the history of where this that we haven't accepted the noble Baroness Casey previously.
So I hope that the House
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today and help make it My Lords. The core group in this will of course, The core group in this will of course, be the survivors and ask what happened and how and what can we do to prevent it happening in the future. do to prevent it happening in the future. Yet the survivors group, it seems, is to be wound down this month is to be wound down this month I read in the press today will survivors have as a group? That's my first question.
And secondly, what funding will they I'm not talking about advocacy because I don't think it's that sort of inquiry, but they will need to have the help
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themselves and to make submissions Yeah. I'm grateful to the noble Lord, They have different They have different different views on what the noble Baroness Casey the noble Baroness Casey Lady Longfield are trying meet with a panel of meet with a panel of best we can involve best we can involve the process of both the appointment and the terms of reference. Now, again, it's really continue to express their views. We've allocated around £3.6 million this week to support but also a portion of that resource is to assist survivors and to help them to be able to work with way that is not a finite sum.
It may be reviewed at a later million that we put in place is the prosecution of historical perpetrators and to assist victims in this process, which I know is extremely And the whole purpose of what is I'm sure the noble Lord This is to not retraumatize
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My Lord, many of this inquiry were victims this inquiry were victims They were abused by those who were supposed those who were supposed The inquiry is going to systemic failures in the system, systemic failures in the system, and it's going to go on for three years. So could the noble Lord, the Minister, So could the noble Lord, the Minister, assure us that those who are so-called at the time, and were responsible for effectively will not be allowed to
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And that includes the three years The noble Lady invites me to
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The noble Lady invites me to the inquiry might say in any What I will say to hopefully What I will say to hopefully is already going to look at is already going to look at If there are emerging issues, Lady Longfield, to report Lady Longfield, to report They are beginning to look of Oldham as a first priority. There may be more that I suspect that if there are lessons to be learned during the course of the inquiry, such as those that they will be drawn to But I think it fair that we have set a remit and a scope for the inquiry.
I think it's fair that we let with the guidance of Baroness Casey, the noble Lady, to examine those issues. But self-evidently, if somebody duty has led to of individuals and has failed they should be held to account for that. What I can't say to the noble Lady
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But that's part of I welcome
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I welcome welcome the appointment of the noble Lady, Lady Longfield, as the chair of She's got the requisite She's got the requisite Like others. I regret that it took so long, but I understand that it's but I understand that it's I just have one question three. It's great that the inquiry has It's great that the inquiry has but in that time I wonder if there friend to update Parliament on because where there is no communication, there's a vacuum and vacuums So I think the more open
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I'm grateful to my noble friend. I think there are two I think there are two Number one, I personally, as Minister, will have a responsibility will have a responsibility the budget and timescale of the inquiry. Number one. So again, in the past some inquiries have said some inquiries have said three years and it's taken six years and recommendations six years and recommendations My first job as the Minister now to the three year the budget and we hold to on those matters for what I think it's for And the chair, in my view, if meet with the chair other matters I've just mentioned.
But if the chair wishes to draw attention, then I'm sure that will be done. But I don't want to restrict to doing things that it is But self-evidently, the chair wishes to report to Ministers, it would be for Ministers both Houses of Parliament in due course. For the reasons my friend has mentioned.
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My Lords, may I thank questions on the statement today. I've looked at I've looked at Devolution and Empowerment Bill, and I welcome the provisions that deal with the out of area taxi provisions, with the out of area taxi provisions, as indeed to do many taxi However, those provisions seem to However, those provisions seem to the perpetrators of these crimes were deemed to be fit and proper persons deemed to be fit and proper persons to operate private hire vehicles How is the noble Lord? The Minister assured under
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and Empowerment Bill that this will Well, the provisions in our Department of Transport provisions our Department of Transport provisions led by my noble friend Lord Hendy, but they're based on but they're based on made to the government by We believe, and this ultimately will We believe, and this ultimately will to hold to account that those changes in the regulations will ensure that there's the regulations will ensure that there's greater control over the allocation of licences and the control of licences.
But ultimately it is for for him with the House's support It's been identified as a gap. We've tried to close that gap and again, there may be further lessons that come out of the inquiry from Baroness Longfield and Baroness Casey supporting her, which may look at further the points of the noble But I hope that the the government's swift
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action on taxi licensing is welcome. My Lords. The the last paragraph of the statement
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The the last paragraph of the statement talks about that the chair and panel talks about that the chair and panel of an inquiry will shine a bright light on this dark moment in our history. They will do so alongside who have waited for too This inquiry is theirs, not What I want to know will there be them in the matters that sometimes Will the survivors whose inquiry? It is in the same question are asked from the official opposition? Really, without giving them to see what kind of legal These are traumatised people.
They've been violated. So from the start, a policy needs with the chair that they will So will the inquiry itself, because I'm afraid the three years not getting direction
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I'm grateful to the noble Right the £65 million that we've allocated the £65 million that we've allocated includes a range of issues to do And I think, if I may, I would And I think, if I may, I would and her two panel members and with to detail in due course how that to detail in due course how that We've allocated a budget for £65 but it's important they have back on on how that that And just again, for for the record, this this inquiry is going to look at historical and current failures in That's what it is about.
But again, as ever, the points current potential criminal
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If there are no further questions, Infected Blood Compensation Scheme Infected Blood Compensation Scheme Baroness Anderson of Stoke on Trent.
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Baroness Anderson of Stoke on Trent. My Lords, I beg to Lordships' House Lordships' House consider the Infected Blood Compensation Scheme Amendment Regulations 2025. Scheme Amendment Regulations 2025. Since the publication Inquiry's detailed report in May 2024, the government has worked to establish the Infected Blood Compensation Since the compensation Ipsa have contacted all infected people, registered with a support and made offers of over opened the service to infected people who have I am pleased with this progress the right direction toward delivering With Ipsa now moving towards opening and for the estates of deceased, In July, the Infected Blood Inquiry which made 15 recommendations on the design of the scheme.
We immediately accepted seven The regulations we are considering today will implement the five of those seven, which require legislation to achieve. The remaining eight to an ongoing public consultation, and the government expects to bring to implement the further changes The regulations at hand today show that the government has to the inquiry's words on involving those impacted by this dreadful scandal. It is right that we accepted and I am pleased that we have been able to bring forward these regulations swiftly.
Hearing the voices of That is why the Chancellor announced infected blood compensation payments tax in cases where the original for compensation has sadly died I am pleased that we have and that just is not but reflected in the way I will now set out to the scheme in the regulations, which are a result of of some of the inquiry's recommendations. Regulation three responds to A and removes the 1982 start date meaning that anyone who was infected with HIV via infected blood or infected blood products before the 1st of November 1985 will be eligible for the scheme.
Regulation four makes changes recommendation eight B Its additional report set out. The time being taken to is disadvantaged disadvantageous to affected people who are They recommend that where sadly passed away during their compensation should The government has accepted and is going beyond extending the recommended between the 21st of May 24 Regulation six actions. The inquiry's recommendation for E, which recommends the government remove the need for applicants B to evidence their date of diagnosis.
The date of diagnosis has no of an individual's compensation. Therefore, making this change which will facilitate swifter Regulation seven implements relating to how severity of someone's hepatitis infection, where someone shows a level four diagnosis of hepatitis but no level three diagnosis, we are amending the scheme so that six years at level three prior This will uplift their overall and recognises that the burden of evidence should not fall on the claimant. In light of the inquiry's finding We have heard from that the use of effective treatment dates under the scheme does not reflect the lived experience of many victims, as not all infected people work after treatment for various reasons, including continued illness, illness or stigma, and that treatment much later than In line with the inquiry's Regulation nine rectifies this by removing the earnings floor on Exceptional Loss Award for financial loss to ensure that a route is available for infected people to present evidence the government recognises have been concerns raised about bereaved partners access to support scheme payments following the tragic loss of their spouse.
In response to these concerns nine A the government reopened to the infected Blood on the 22nd of October, and I'm grateful to devolved administration colleagues for their work in helping us make sure that we could achieve this so quickly. One of the key themes of the inquiry's for Ipsa to increase the speed with In order to achieve that, these ten delay delay by one calendar year. The transfer of Responsibility Scheme payments from IBS to Ipsa. This will allow Ipsa to focus to build an effective I am agreeing I am again grateful colleagues for their Outside of the inquiry's report, regulation 14 makes a number that the compensation and that its administration is improved.
These are minor corrections This compensation scheme is lives changed by unimaginable The regulations we are debating today are a direct response to and carry forward a sense of justice. We all, as members of share the sentiment that scandal should be at and that these regulations step in ensuring that scheme delivers for the people
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I beg to move. The question is that
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The question is that Firstly, may I thank. The noble Lord.
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The noble Lord. The Minister, for and going through things and going through things and also for being open about the whole scheme at other about the whole scheme at other times without even necessarily having But may I ask a couple of questions? Because there are areas be helpful to have clarification on. Firstly, is it correct that infected as children up to the age of 16, other than a £10,000 If the family of the deceased which is the same for adults.
And is it correct that there is no compensation for a lost life? And as parents are not can the noble aid the Minister clarify what they are
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and how that changes if their child Thank you, thank you Lord.
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Thank you, thank you Lord. Yeah, I. I'm grateful that the noble Lady, the Minister is keeping in touch about the Minister is keeping in touch about the regulations and not not just today, but from when we last but from when we last She won't be surprised to know from these benches are from these benches are And the main concern does the progress of There is clearly some movement, That is that is good news. However, it is still very, very victims because they haven't But the proposed arrangements seems to drift longer The noble Lady.
The Minister, knows that the real actually relate to the detail and specifically to changes that So I have and I apologise I have a series of questions So if the Minister can't reply I don't think that's the first The compensation proposals in 2022 and also which the government claims it's overridden by the work of It's worth remembering in the Francis Review of 2022 on page 127 at 10.3, he said I have further be taken when calculating compensation for any past payment one of the preceding trusts and charities.
Put simply, all payments were ex gratia, were without any admission of liability, were never intended to be compensation. In any event, the inquiry the full detail of support be burdensome to all because of lost or inaccessible records. End quote. This is really worrying, the moment is the government delay compensation and to have been found guilty of evasion, then to argue that they until after they've read the final report, which is what happened under and then fix eligibility to said ex-gratia scheme set up as late as 2017, which government advisers recommended past payments should be discounted.
There was a specific argument but now it appears that everyone which conveniently then the schemes were established have lost their right to suffering or mental I realise this is highly if the Minister could help explain why these changes are happening to Sir Brian's initial report, his subsequent report I also want to ask a bit The special category mechanism details in response to Sir Brian Langstaff scathing analysis in his report is making statements in Parliament, only to row back on them without and specifically on the special category mechanism.
I am referring here to in May 2025, from Sir Brian's he said living infected people people who are receiving SCM or received them before they be eligible for this award. That is the end of the quote. The above means that only schemes would be automatically Another quote living infected people SCM or equivalent payments criteria and if they met them, End quote. But once again, there is no mention here of the estates of the deceased here, and this is clearly only for meaning that every dead child or adult who died before the SCM was introduced will have no right of for actual injuries to them.
I know that there are some discussions and I understand that initially, no, none of the groups were But since then there have now but not to include worth of experience of things going wrong. Seems to me to be questionable. There are then some for the SCM that I won't go through here, but I think the Minister needs to group of victims who are extremely Some of them are actually outraged, and they now feel that this is worse, that they are only allowed regarding the SCM and And this seems to us infringing human rights for these victims.
I'm not expecting the noble Lady I think the big message that I would like the government to hear one month where to rebuild trust between the victims, things are changing that they are not Please. Will the Minister review this with
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My Lords, I want to start welcoming the progress that Blood Compensation Authority Blood Compensation Authority in delivering payments and pay tribute to the work of Sir Brian Langstaff and all those involved and all those involved Inquiry and its additional report. This report made a number This report made a number to improve the compensation scheme, and the government has broadly and the government has broadly five of which are given effect by After the catastrophic failures that it is vital that justice and fairly to all who were affected.
I also want to take this Lady opposite for her letter which addressed some of discussed this matter on I'm glad to see, in response the steps the government to ensure that those who for compensation are being identified, the noble Lady has confirmed that the order recommended by In the other place, I want to His Majesty's Opposition There are no substantive of the government or even of the previous government. However, we cannot forget of the most egregious the infliction collectively upon thousands of people by the state.
It is paramount that we have and redress compassionately, We support the five recommendations are accepting and legislating for today, and I welcome that they go some way The changes before us the 1982 start date for removing the need for C or B to evidence their which does not have of an individual's compensation, and removing the earnings floor on Financial Loss supplement for thereby creating a route present evidence on their We welcome the noble confirmation that lifting the HIV start date means that it will not matter when a victim was infected with HIV, provided the infection arose from or blood products administered However, may I ask the Minister to confirm that this also applies to those who who only discovered or were only informed much later that they were infected, but where the likely cause was Similarly, can she assure the committee that no one who should be eligible will fall through the cracks because of particularly those infected records may have been We must ensure that no one is denied the compensation they and I am sure that this is something that the government will wish to avoid.
The Minister will also be from those deliberately as part of clinical studies, the proposed level of compensation Will the noble Baroness, the Minister, commit to working with Sir Brian to review whether that component is appropriate? My Lords, when we debate this matter, on 4th November, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton and I raise and the risk that the government could be giving out compensation with one hand and clawing it back with the other. The noble Baroness, the Minister, said in response to our concerns she would seek to arrange officials to discuss this issue further.
Can I ask the noble Lady if she and what recommendations Can the noble Lady confirm blood compensation payments were made directly to victims or through estates are entirely exempt from inheritance tax, regardless of the circumstances The noble Baroness also when we last discussed this matter, can she give us an update the government have made he has made and whether any of And can the noble Baroness, the Minister, please assure the House debating today will not and swiftness of repayment to victims, given that they will likely impact As the Minister in we have moved from to the exponential phase of delivery, rather than having yet more the government must now focus on and the scaling up process with the urgency of the situation.
Finally, my Lords, as we have repeatedly many victims and families still an issue identified again in Sir The Minister and the Other place has given an undertaking that transparency will be at the heart of any Will the Minister commit to publishing and to working with the ICA and accessible plain English guidance, so that those who may be rights and can access My Lords, I want to close by reiterating again that we support these regulations, but would welcome clarity from that I have raised for the steps that she to provide some redress We appreciate the need to proceed but we must not lose sight of that the process can be as quick That, my Lords, is those victims and their families who have already been failed
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face no further injustice here. My Lords, I want to thank all I say as is our want, when we are talking as is our want, when we are talking for the points they've for the points they've and for their continued representation of the infected blood community of the infected blood community There are many in your have consistently ensured that the voices of the infected and affected community of the infected and affected community are given a voice in this chamber.
I particularly want to pay tribute Lady Brinton, Lady Campbell, who I was delighted to see week and is definitely Lady Featherstone, who has ensured And of course, lady, as their for the victims of this scandal and their generosity of time to of such issues has been incredibly, I'd also like to thank my for how constructive we have worked for a community that needs to faith and trust in government and it is the onus on all of make sure that they know that My Lords, I'm going to look of the noble Baroness Lloyd Brinton.
Obviously, as she highlighted, I think it may be useful for us actually to have a meeting with officials, which I will invite all of those who have participated today to to attend. But I will also reflect on the points. I'm right in advance of the meeting. My Lords, we're here today first and I will prioritise the issues raised on the regulations in my response. I'm aware of the other points and I'll do my best to address those too. But obviously I will reflect on In terms of the specific I'd like to start by the points raised by the noble Lady Baroness Finlay.
These are incredibly important points, and she did worry me when When she gave me the detail in advance. And I had worried that there So to clarify for the record, Someone infected as a child social impact, autonomy, care, and basic financial loss They do not receive for the years where they However, they will still financial loss award for the years where they were or will be aged 16 or over, and I hope that gives And with regards to of when an infected child had passed away, a bereaved parent, a parent social impact and autonomy.
Awards based on severity that that child had. This will not change child was when they passed away. The awards to parents are higher where their child's infection has caused, or is expected to cause This includes those infected four and five hepatitis infections. They would also be the likely estate under the under All such would likely be the recipient of whatever injury, social impact, autonomy, care and financial loss so there is still a level of compensation, but I will make sure that I also write to the noble Lady so she has a copy I just want to touch on is helpful in the context of our prioritising those nearing because community members have highlighted how people to start their compensation claim.
Nearing the end of life means a person has been told by a doctor or medical professional that they might have This could be due to any It does not need to be caused directly by an infection from contaminated blood.
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With regards to previous payments. Intervene. The noble Lady has said that this is The noble Lady has said that this is the case for those who Will the same rules be applied Will the same rules be applied nearing the end of their life,
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Many are dying now. As I believe that to be the case,
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As I believe that to be the case, I will confirm to given the issues that we're talking about, and I would not want to mislead anybody, but I believe that is also because With regards to previous they are all pre Only payments from the 31st of March count towards compensation calculations. No payments from an r r compensation. But I will again in our conversations write to the noble Lady in terms Now noble Lady asked very specific points about the system, but I want to confirm, while I recognise the level of community concern about how the scheme considers and recognises the impacts captured the matter of how the scheme people for the impacts that make someone eligible for SCM consultation and further regulations.
The consultation proposes that anyone currently receiving special category, mechanism or equivalent payments through the Infected Blood Support Screen schemes would now be automatically eligible Everyone who receives SCM payments should have been contacted by ICA already, as part of the cohort of infected people registered with a support scheme. I hope that gives a level of reassurance, asked for more specific questions Moving on to inheritance tax. Well, the noble Lady will appreciate that. Such was the statement from the Chancellor that no such meeting was required because the Chancellor there were private conversations happened about this.
Reflecting on both the conversation about the issues raised in your Lordships' House and in the other place Representations were reflected that in the budget. And I am very, very So there was no such meeting in terms but proved to be unnecessary. I hope nobody could appreciate that In terms of the inheritance tax. Though raised by the noble I think it would be helpful if I can just outline what we've actually agreed to. I know that the issue of inheritance tax policy has been widely raised by noble, by many members of your Lordships' House and in the community, Compensation payments made under capital gains and inheritance tax.
This is in line with tax exemptions for the first and second interim payments. At the budget. The government announced to Inheritance Tax disregard will be made to ensure that infected blood from inheritance tax in cases where the original infected or affected person eligible for compensation has sadly died before the compensation is paid. I know this was an important issue and I'm pleased that able to listen and make this change. The changes mean inheritance be automatically applied to the estate of the first beneficiary affected person's estate, for example, this would mean that who inherits their and then dies would not charge on the compensation they inherit.
This will apply to or after the 26th of November, 2025. The government has also made changes to the rules on gifting The change means that of compensation payments in which to give some or all without an inheritance tax charge. This applies to gifts of compensation made on or after the 4th of December, 2025. Noble Lady Baroness Finn that no one should fall Noble Lady is absolutely right. It is working with those an evidence base where where And I think noble Lords would from the infected who are who have claims that some of the evidence base is going to become more challenging, and it is right that the that work with people to help support With regard to the Tyrone Urch review, we're still reflecting and I look forward to discussing on the recommendations and working and talking to because many of I will report back in due the changes to these regulations Where there are enhancements those will be retrospectively people who've already without them having to come forward again.
And we don't believe that at this point will slow anything down. With regard to the clear plan, noble Lords are aware this year I went to visit it. I met with their comms team. I think we can all agree that communication challenges I personally think having seen some of their new materials that they're using and the fact that they level of basic English standard now, as opposed to a level of science that that has made this much more accessible.
My Lords, we are talking about experiences and personal Comms is always going to be a challenge, but I want to put on record my thanks for both the women who are and they are overwhelmingly women who are answering the calls at the first instance, who are providing huge support, and for the the handlers that are based at ICA who are doing a very, very good job, having built an organisation year to deliver over £2 there is a long way to go, but My Lords, these regulations of the inquiry's recommendations and bring them into force as But I am very clear that this These regulations are only response to the inquiry's The consultation that not close until the 22nd of January, and I encourage all of those to ensure that your voice is part of and if there are problems in people being able to access the consultation, then please let us know.
And we will. And we are. We are making other mitigations,
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I would want to hear them. Thank you. Absolutely clear. The comment I was making was The comment I was making was which is a written one. It was about the fact that
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It was about the fact that was invited to attend Looking at the detail. But that has now been resolved.
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But that has now been resolved. Okay, I will explore. I will speak to officials and look I will speak to officials and look Many of the points raised today I look forward to discussing these Once the government has and published our response. In the meantime, I hope with these regulations committed to ensuring that to a group of people who
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My Lords, I beg to move here. The question is that
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The question is that As many as of that opinion Contrary, not content. Contrary, not content. The contents have it. We move now to the next business We move now to the next business wheelchair and community equipment
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wheelchair and community equipment My Lords, I'm very grateful to noble Lords who taking part in this debate, and I particularly want to Gerada who is making her maiden speech. She has, of course, been and chair of the Royal College of GPS. But if I can say so, more than that, an excellent GP and brilliant and it's a pleasure to I shall also inform the House of Alliance and also and my daughter Philippa works for backup, which supports people with spinal injury.
My Lords, the provision of wheelchair country for disabled people is, to The nub of the problem was described of December by the distinguished He was paralysed in a climbing accident illogical and incompetent many of He talked about the bureaucratic barriers, organisational inflexibilities of the services he encountered. I thought particularly telling for me were the words of a physiotherapist he quoted, who had been working cord injury for more than 20 years. Many of her clients are discharged in heavy manual wheelchairs person would struggle to push frequently.
They're the wrong type least are uncomfortable often, she said, people who have impaired upper limbs cannot push these wheelchairs themselves and become in some cases confined to their bed. Sometimes they develop complications and it lands them back in people wait at least ten months after let alone getting the wheelchair Unbelievably, some local wheelchair to assess a patient until So much, my Lords, for integrated care boards were established Now, Doctor Sage's experience, The Wheelchair Alliance has produced how inconsistent and under-resourced Over 50% of providers come and there are real worries regarding the financial frailty of many of them.
With a system that cost over long term value and reliability, there are no consistent no independent regulation, few clear reporting thoughts or making complaints. As a result, many disabled people delays in hospital discharge, loss of independence, social avoidable deterioration My Lord, it's the same dismal equipment embracing hoists, scrap rails, harnesses, medical beds and a wide The all party Group for Access recently reported on 60% 63% of carers, 55% that services are getting and the all party group concluded underinvested, fragmented Now, government policy is that care boards are share responsibility In practice, this means a fragmented, inconsistent delivery a landscape in which every without alignment or accountability, so the consequence is a postcode lottery, with 74% of equipment experiencing delayed to unavailability of community equipment.
And I would argue, and I'm looking forward to Baroness Brinton speech later on this, I would argue that community equipment the root of the challenges we face in providing community and social care. And the tragedy is it would if there was a will to do the government published the Wheelchair Quality Framework to assist integrated care boards and will deliver high quality provision. I have read it. It's welcome. But my Lords, the problem is, It lacks binding universal equitable provision across It does not address It does not mandate robust data reporting.
It lacks external oversight And so there is no statutory ensuring that every person in need or community equipment My Lords, what is required? I am absolutely convinced that underpinned by the appointment accountable to Ministers management and the remit of the director, Miles what that needs to be comprehensive vision of what and community equipment and the government should the all party group on access by introducing a dedicated community equipment Users must be around the top table a nationally defined eligibility and community equipment and removing the current postcode lottery, a legally guaranteed entitlement to appropriate equipment for all A long term funding rising costs of equipment, manufacturing, maintenance, energy, staff and supply user friendly service for wheelchair users and carers to report issues, requests, papers, make complaints or feedback We need to shift from to value based procurement, which is happening, my Lords, it ought to be extended to and my Lords for community National training standards for other professionals and suppliers I don't think anyone in this wheelchair and community The tragedy, as I've said before, If the government were prepared we're going to have a national, we're going to do what I've suggested in relation to have national leadership.
And I lost so many of and the blockages would be dealt with if this were really taken seriously. We all know what happens. It's not regarded as at the NHS or local authorities and many, many people suffer as a result.
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My Lords, I beg to move. My Lords. It's a great pleasure to follow
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It's a great pleasure to follow and I thank him firstly for and I thank him firstly for Secondly, for his work on Secondly, for his work on which he has been involved which he has been involved far longer than he cares to remember. And thirdly, for choosing to in which I should declare I trust his noble friend. The Minister will bear in mind which we look forward to hearing as we do the maiden speech of None of us will ever forget the prospect of addressing There may be issues which divide us, but the nerve wracking our own maiden speech say it into each I have no doubt that we will May Lords are referred It's much needed, not least because, the absence of a strategic approach on wheelchair services will be costing the NHS an awful lot of money, So in a little time I have now put three questions to the noble Baroness Minster.
She'll no doubt be of the Appg for Access to Disability Equipment Support that the Community to quote in crisis with Wheelchair Provision How which details the costly consequences including delays in hospital social isolation was the inevitable impact on mental health and, of course, avoidable deterioration a point the noble Lords made So would she agree with me And would she further agree that it is? If it is avoidable, then we are If we allow ICBs to is actually in the strategic big picture, a completely false the NHS and indeed And my third and last Economics setting out a few reports, the value of the wheelchair I would say saving that high to provide wheelchair users Will she undertake to put that My Lords, the current because it does not make economic sense.
That is why the noble Lords
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to be heard and deserves Yeah. Well said, well said.
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Well said, well said. My Lords. I declare my interest. As the conference. Chair of the National Chair of the National Providers for the last five years. Before that, for ten years Before that, for ten years for the British Healthcare representing manufacturers and suppliers representing manufacturers and suppliers of wheelchairs and assistive technology, upholding industry standards, and supporting purchasers My personal interest began as hand wheelchair bought through There was no assessment, training Much has improved in Yet the Wheelchair Alliance that wheelchair provision They said then that in some areas receive users in other areas may Inappropriately tailored equipment, a lack of training and or The report also showed how can improve lives Wheelchairs are not just medical devices, they're gateways to independence, inclusion, work, education and activity.
Poor provision restricts life chances, limits employment and can Pressures in wheelchair services are mirrored across community equipment, from hoists and specialist beds to The problems are systemic, The Appg for Access to the delays are driven by staff shortages, particularly of occupational therapists, inconsistencies between local authorities. At the root of this and blurred accountability between local authorities driving wide regional variation. The provision is fragmented so I also hope that the government will now drive forward a national strategy with clear structures for provision.
I agree with the Wheelchair care boards must adopt for wheelchair provision specification when commissioning services. I also support the call by the Appg for a dedicated national strategy alongside a dedicated DHSC This would ensure that and fairly met everywhere. I welcome the government's but it doesn't go nearly welcome increased use of But providers and users both budgets to ensure real giving users more control Fundamentally, what we need to address is balancing the costs of the provision of wheelchairs and community including preventing accidents, reducing the need for future enabling people whilst at the same time emotional well-being for many families.
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I'd like to thank the noble Lord, Lord hunt for introducing this debate, Lord hunt for introducing this debate, which I think is of very I am the main carer for my wife, I am the main carer for my wife, and I've calculated that we and I've calculated that we of equipment in order to lead She has a hospital bed to She has a hospital bed to a hoist to get her out of bed, a commode wheelchair to a turner to actually get a chairlift to take her downstairs, another turner to get her and the commode lift to in addition to a lifting wheel chair.
In addition, of course, special amputations in the in Because we can only get into at least three ramps in order This is a good story. We have what we want in order partly provided and partly But it brings to my mind the nightmare, the total nightmare of people or equipment breaks down emergency help in order And as we've already heard from there is very widespread who need equipment because and delays and, and bureaucracy. And I won't repeat those figures, but I was particularly moved and I think perhaps others have been moved who had cerebral palsy, and who including a hoist and home adaptations for two years, my Lord, for two years.
And during this time, to help him use a commode and drag him into the family putting them all at risk of injury. And when he needed surgery, to have a hoist in order To do do that. This equipment for Reece not only to support day to day activities, but also to ensure essential avoiding further complications. My Lords, such delays are The crisis impacting community sometimes years of delay for is systematic rather than And the main reason, as my Lord, but it is worth repeating, is that there is a lack Statutory responsibilities have left, which is creating inconsistent And moreover, confusion is responsible for this essential service.
an ageing population and the rise the demand for mobility aids of and it's vitally important now before the situation So I'd like to ask the Minister, for access to disability equipments, finding that there is no coherent commissioning accountable Minister for will the government now commit to
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overseen by a named Minister with Here are. My Lords. I rise for the first time with I rise for the first time with a certain amount of surprise until a certain amount of surprise until a GP these days and having me in a GP these days and having me in It's though a great honour, It's though a great honour, particularly in such a significant fairness and independence. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of the Shaws who so kindly introduced me.
I also thank the staff of this for their patience with my many So a little bit about me. I have Maltese heritage where my father worked as a doctor. My parents arrived in 1960s as proud citizens They taught me that hard work and a commitment to My father became a general His surgery was Patients have therefore been part As a young girl, dad would take me still bearing the scars Through him, I learnt truly involves not merely medicine, but community, continuity and compassion, and that the measure of a doctor but in how he or she cares.
I have now worked in the NHS beginning as a Saturday girl After completing my training in and I have lived and worked in Being well known in I recall my bicycle being stolen it won't happen again. Of course, it can never happen as my little Brompton has two armed Thank you officers. My patients have included the great, the good and given that bell occasionally the difficult. My very first patient was a young Decades later, I look after her To that continuity seems gives general practice its It allows us to see people not as isolated organs or diagnoses.
We are interpreters of experience, translators of suffering We observe how illness is linked with work, and the myriad This is not the soft end of medicine. It is its foundation, the undramatic, continuous care that underpins GPS carry out more than 300 million 80% of all NHS contacts, for Most of our encounters or admission or prescription. When general practice thrives, It prevents illness, supports self-care, protects hospitals from becoming And where the story of our My Lords, it is a privilege to be amongst the very few GPS admitted And now that I have completed my first surgery is And only one problem allowed.
My Lords, thank you very much. It's a great honour to and to have enjoyed a small sample of the immense knowledge It is, however, somewhat to talk about her in when it's clear possible to public achievements As we heard, Baroness Gerada trained in psychiatry in and then as a GP in South London, her career has consistently sat practice and mental health, gambling, harm and, critically, the well-being of From 2008 to 22, she founded and led the NHS Practitioner Health Service, now the largest confidential service for health supporting 50,000 clinicians From 2019 to 25, she helping to bridge policy, policy and patient experience Ever the entrepreneur, it seems now used by around and she continues to lead and serves as patron of And as if this was not all and president of the Royal College only the second woman to hold both roles.
But before I end, I must mention career high her stint In the show, she co-wrote which should perhaps have been would be in a time limited Baroness Gerada brings not only and exceptional contribution. We often file wheelchair services under health or social care. In reality, they are ought to be part of our national employment infrastructure. When services fail, people they lose their ability to contribute. The numbers tell this story starkly. Only around 53% of working age compared with 82% of non-disabled people.
And it's even wider for As a recent House of Lords report on the transition to work made clear, 1.2 million of people rely on a wheelchair and many more on other So when these systems fail, we're not we're talking about large parts the tools that make work possible daily life and work to the right equipment, mobility aids, home adaptations, When assessments take The consequences are immediate. Parliamentary inquiries have described As we've heard charities report people stuck at home with unsafe chairs or unable to start new jobs because their Services designed to gatekeepers to your ability to work.
This is an economic cost. We rarely acknowledge if someone because essential equipment the ripple effect hits They're less likely to earn, less likely to pay tax to more likely to draw on welfare, Independent assessments show provides substantial net fiscal This is not charity. It's investment in people, So what can we do? I would like to offer has a bigger role than it realises. Many employers have disability but too often the effort Rarely do companies engage determine whether someone Access to equipment, responsiveness or the basic accessibility Employers can change that.
They can partner with local They can use procurement to loan equipment, or minimum They can appoint a senior sponsor for responsible for everything from They can embed requirements occupational therapy assessments They can also use their dates slip because how many job offers fall away, how many days of work are lost They can work with unions staff networks and design When external equipment failures government and commissioners services as a marginal welfare Economic infrastructure outcomes but in terms of employment, Services should publish transparent data on waiting times for the assessments, delivery and repair broken down by At a minimum, we must know how many being delayed or denied work Access to work should be wheelchair and community Leaders such as Sara have long been arguing must mean more than good intentions.
It means designing systems This is the core point. Mobility, accessibility optional extras for many disabled people. They are the foundation that I learned this the hard way when but before my own experience, I learned from another the halls of this building My great aunt Felicity Lane-fox. If we're serious about closing boosting productivity we must put disability equipment
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not marooned on the edge Thank you.
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Thank you. My Lords. I'm delighted to be Congratulate the noble
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Congratulate the noble on an excellent maiden speech. As one would expect from As one would expect from and how wise of her to into the maelstrom of Although, of course, there Although, of course, there and plenty of opportunity As a former distinguished College of General we shall also expect save the NHS and solve the serious problems of general practice moving And so we all look forward I also congratulate the noble for securing this debate NHS wheelchair provision has been long delays and poor costs are driven up by inefficiencies and the false economy of supplying A cost effective strategy would improving assessments and investing to reduce downstream Now, one of the key criticisms First a postcode lottery.
Services vary significantly leading to inequitable, Second, long waiting times, leave users without mobility Third, poor suitability of equipment. Many wheelchairs provide a heavy, cumbersome or not tailored forcing some to buy their own. And fourth, limited user often fail to consider lifestyle needs, reducing independence and fifth or sixth inconsistent standards. NHS England acknowledges variation My Lords, putting it simply, NHS wheelchairs are dirt cheap heavy, ugly things which appal young The wheels may not detach. Car transport may be Now noble Lords have seen my sophisticated wheelchair parked around the corner, similar to the one of And.
But these wheelchairs are and their solid steel frame no doubt for 40 to 50 stone Americans. Now a replacement these aluminium and lightweight aluminium wheelchairs have been taking over That's what people want and need. But of course there is my Lords, I suggest, can be contained. If there was a national NHS strategy. First standardised provision nationally. Implement the NHS Wheelchair across all ICBs to reduce variation and appoint a senior NHS England Second, improve assessments Ensure assessments include.
Consider lifestyle, employment not just the medical factors wheelchair users to avoid Third, My Lords invest in provide wheelchairs that reducing downstream costs they get worse in the future and expand the personal health badges Fourth, streamline Centralised purchasing to Introduce rapid response maintenance and finally measure outcomes by Lloyd's. Not just costs. Track independence, employment and health outcomes as key performance indicators. The value added and use long term savings from better provision. My Lords, while upfront costs of better the long term strategy social care and productivity make Standardisation, user centred wheelchairs are the most impactful
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Yes. My Lords, I congratulate
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My Lords, I congratulate Heath on securing this important debate. Heath on securing this important debate. I also want to congratulate Lady And from these benches, we look forward to her many future contributions. to her many future contributions. The. I'm also a member of I'm also a member of Group for Access to Disability Equipment, and the Appg published a forensically into the systematic barriers of disabled children accessing the medical including wheelchairs, that they need and that are holding back the sector from supplying the equipment that is needed.
Lord Shinkwin helpfully picture because community equipment is the backbone of social care and key to removing barriers for disabled people. 14 years ago, I was referred to They told me that as a stick from my sitting I didn't qualify for an electric chair, but the very reason my me was that I was doing steps a day, travelling to, from and the damage that that was doing to my already damaged joints was significant. I had to buy my own chair. Even this week I have heard facing the same inconsistent decisions, not based on actual needs, down because that is what it is all about.
That's why the Wheelchair that services should be The Appg report found that of users said services are getting worse. Over half of equipment users the medical equipment they need And as Lord Blencathra said, of users being let down So it was also good to the system has worked and my own family's experience for end of life care was But I note that the Kent end of wheelchair and equipment service There are lessons to be learned from that. Lord Reynolds contribution We need to hear from the equipment sector and understand their problems too.
One of the key issues in supply sector is that contracting by local authorities of services So as the Appg report shows, most local authorities became very dependent on one supplier who was cheaper than Earlier this year, in local authorities and above all, wheelchair and equipment users found I am pleased to report that authorities to try and remedy this, What's needed by the government different to a voluntary that serves the needs of disabled offering value for money to What we have at the moment Sir, can I ask the Minister if she would agree to meet with the all party group for access and disability
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My Lords, can I thank the noble Lord, Lord King Lord Hunt of Kings valuable debate today valuable debate today who share their valuable experiences. But I also welcome Lady Gerard. I hope I pronounced that I hope I pronounced that maiden speech shared her which we know will contribute which we know will contribute At its heart, this is a discussion about people's dignity and independence. about people's dignity and independence. Wheelchairs are, for many, participating in daily Enabling people to leave their and to access work and education.
But the reason for today's debate is that the current system faces serious problems. Indeed, NHS England's 2025 Wheelchair while the Appg for Access describes the system as being in crisis. So, my Lords, we welcome initial steps to improve such as the National Wheelchair Data Set and personal wheelchair budgets. These are welcome But data from the British shows that only around a wheelchair or much needed below the 92% national target. And people with complex needs and a delay in receiving simply an inconvenience or a statistic, it is a barrier to living a fuller life.
And also, we find that where how their wheelchair whether they qualify how clearly the process is equipment they ultimately England's own national data set shows between integrated care boards There is also a wide variation In North Bristol, at least four times weekly In Oxford, regular use is defined In Wirral and west Cheshire, often than not for powered We find in West Suffolk a person appropriate home accessibility, get GP clearance and pass west London that uses a tiered with detailed thresholds denying access to certain So when noble Lords discussed the noble Lady the Minister integrated care boards are responsible wheelchair services based on My Lords, I appreciate and reflecting local populations.
But could the Minister tell the House if the government believes that there should be more co-ordination but also communicating the criteria and what plans it has for achieving this? My Lords, the noble Lord hunt about his own experience when distressed, worried about his future being phoned by the wheelchair service. Obviously being unable to speak right now and then assuming that Instead, a letter was sent to his which he would never access again. And I thought that shows of situation some users So can I ask a noble Lady Minister, where local ICPs offer such What's the accountability is the department's thinking on making them accountable to allow while respecting local differences? And does the government have any plans service providers to make sure My Lords, I appreciate that noble but I hope the noble Lady, the Minister who we know will appreciate that we see this but one on which all directly on people's independence, touches directly on people's dignity,
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and touches directly on My Lords, I'm most grateful
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My Lords, I'm most grateful not just for securing this important not just for securing this important As the noble Lord Lord Kamall said, As the noble Lord Lord Kamall said, along with other noble Lords along with other noble Lords outside of your Lordships I'm also grateful to noble Lords, but also for sharing their experiences, some of which are painful to To the maiden speech of let me welcome her and let me welcome her The noble Lady spoke of choosing to speak in this debate because of its feature of, amongst other things, and I was very touched by what and who and GP really And I know that we all look forward Could I just say the government and we're delighted to have more This has been a affecting debate, the impact of services not being in And I'm sure that we would all agree But I would like what the government has done and is doing, and we are focussed on ensuring to services and support that they And my ministerial colleague the relevant Minister the points and questions him in respect of provision Integrated care boards are and the noble Lord Lord for the provision services based on the needs I'm glad that the noble recognise the importance of flexibility.
However, flexibility cannot be which I believe is a point I've heard. I have heard rightly and repeatedly today. So, my Lords, I do have to say to publish a national strategy I know that will be but I can say that NHS England guidance and legislation to support to ensure commissioning effective, efficient and personalised including the Wheelchair which was published just in April National Wheelchair Advisory do have a statutory duty to arrange for the provision of community to meet the assessed care and support And I would also want to add that our ten year plan for health gives that freedom and autonomy to serve local And I do think in this regard, it's important that we are and flexibility to a greater degree about how funding is deployed to get this done.
But I have heard about delays and I say this not as any excuse at all, but the pandemic still continues to have an impact on wheelchair services, not least because, in fact, reduced their services with but now face a backlog of referrals. Also, I was interested to have also experienced lower referral, lower referral rates during the pandemic. This, of course, has led to It has meant waiting times to fluctuated as services However, we do need action and I absolutely recognise And so to that point, in October, we published the NHS Medium which requires all icbs services to actively manage and reduce waits over 18 weeks and to develop a plan to eliminate all 52 week waits.
The noble Lord Lord to the need to focus and the Community Health Services monitor ICB performances against and currently monitors and young people and adults prosthetics and equipment, guide systems to reduce the longest waits. Additionally, the model wheelchairs sets out that take place have to take place in including hospitals. But the key thing here is based My Lords, my noble friend Lords rightly spoke to delays in discharge being linked to temporary wheelchairs rather than Let me say that access to support hospital discharge is It doesn't fall within the remit which does provide services to people of all ages with long term mobility needs.
I did hear the point the technology and quality of wheelchairs, and certainly that's one of the things I will be raising and discussing with Minister Ahmed in terms of improving As I said, reducing waiting It's not the whole story. So the quality framework Lord Shinkwin asked about this point, is very much designed to service providers to get it right. I have heard that both within this chamber this is not always the case But the quality framework sets out all suppliers and does align with and and to the point raised not just but also the noble Lady, Baroness Brinton.
This is about aiming to tackle I want to acknowledge that in My Lords NHS England out how Icbs should be communities, key partners And that's why each ICB who work closely with local authorities, who promote integrated working including those with learning down syndrome, and children special educational NHS England, also as was introduced a personal wheelchair budgets in 2019 and gave a clear framework for ICBs to commission focusing on outcomes giving people greater choice And I have heard what noble and also to the noble who spoke quite correctly about services on the ability to be That is about quality of And I share her views to the noble Lords, NHS bodies and local for dealing properly with complaints.
And let me say, overall, year health plan as a priority group service will support disabled people. It's about choice and the ten year plan focuses on that. My Lords, I have heard what noble I will be taking that back. I hope the steps we have
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but I do recognise there My Lords. I'm going. To just pause for a short moment to allow any movement around the chamber. allow any movement around the chamber. Motion for. Debate Common Good Foundation Don't stop thinking about tomorrow. And with all best wishes for
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Lord Hodgson, of Astley Abbotts. Thank you for those good wishes. I hope you'll still feel My Lords, the issue of My Lords, the issue of consequences has long consequences has long because I believe that failed to give the topic failed to give the topic analysis and attention appear to want a plan Conspicuously, we fail to plan for in our society the number of Over the past ten years, I've published this issue in as transparent and this report before your Lordships' and provides an appropriate bookend So I want to put on record my sincere noble Lord Kennedy, my own Chief Whip Baroness for enabling I'm not so far had the pleasure of I hope she'll forgive me if I say and when she comes to reply, I hope she will not confine herself just might just say we inherited a broken system from the party opposite.
Give us three years I hope instead that she to give some genuine consideration to the issues and concerns that because, my Lords, we all know, we all know which is not susceptible to piecemeal, short term solutions often produced By contrast, it requires conducted and transparent which should lead to This, in turn, will reassure the many concerned members of our population. In short, my Lords, we Space for what best can be described as the wisdom of the crowd and so marginalise views at either end of the spectrum.
Now the impacts of demographic In the words of demography, Yesterday is the year 2000, so we are of the decisions made by the Blair and tomorrow will be 2045, when assess the results of the what And they have then become fully apparent. And that's why my report is called But since this is a topic Let me define two of them. First, the subtle population means people who have a legal right to be in the UK and expect to spend all of the rest of their of their lives here.
It is not, as some will immediately It is not another word for white. But since close to 20% is now made up of minority communities, many of whom are not white, This is a group which level of concern about their interests, and the interests of their children often being sacrificed to short And secondly, my Lords, This has become a loaded term, as as opposed to those immigrants So I prefer to use Now, of course, I understand, the moral imperative that many of whom have been for a long time, and who have benefited to be concerned about not trying to close the door on those seeking to follow them.
My Lords, the numbers and scale do matter. So, however sensitive the key point of numbers and taken into account in our discussions. And that, my Lords, takes the strategic of the demographic a result of a series of the major political parties some being deliberate being events forced upon such as the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Over the last 30 years, since 1995, the population of this country has million, an increase of 20%, What do 11.5 million people look like? Well, the population My Lords, is 2.8 million.
So we've added rather over four And drilling into the issue of housing, since we live 2.4 people per dwelling, we have to have built 4.8 million And we and we have to do the shortages of housing amongst And if you want a snapshot, a snapshot 31% of all children born were born to mothers who 25 years ago, that figure was 10 or 11%. Now, my Lords, where do we go from here? And what does the future look like? Well, the ONS suggests we'll have another 10% or 6.6 million people, to slow over the period of 2045.
But by 2045, we'll have 76, 77 million people, and we will have overtaken Germany as the most populous country in Europe. Where will these people come from? Well, of course there the excess of births over deaths. But leaving that aside, because the man in the street will likely And in this, my Lords, he would be wrong, because historically the main We've always controlled. First, UK higher education. It has built a business an increasing number of foreign students, of whom 30 to 40% have morphed into our workforce at the end of their studies.
And second, British industry, which uses overseas recruitment as describes it as the default exploited the shortage occupation list, which enables you to recruit As I speak, my Lords, in the shortage occupation list. Many will be familiar, but not all. How many members of your we have a shortage of So, my Lords, it is worth noting also that our democratic challenge and challenge has made more acute by the fact of UK has 279 more than nearly four times as densely So for my this my third report, I concluded that to increase credibility, I should not write alone.
So I was lucky to get and the Centre for Policy Studies to respectively centre left and centre And I asked a number of experts discuss the demographic challenge It is, of course, impossible to summarise nine detailed chapters in this debate, but the overall conclusion of we've not been taking strategic approach to Further, since this demographic I made made contact with three Japan which of course of a rapidly declining population, and Denmark, which has now become Many interesting ideas emerged, enforces very strict and moves them on Rather depressingly, when how, where do they go to? Oh, they said they did it oh, the word on the street is, once you get to the UK, no You are free to do what you like.
So, my Lords, I believed that there was an interest to for the in the public. So I asked YouGov to do some polling and the results were Of those polled thought the government growth and 56% support the idea An important message for the three is that only 10% thought only 8% thought the Conservative and only and only 5% thought By contrast, 22% supported reform. So what could be done? We have to have the irrevocable nature of that departmentally based never, never provide a coherent response.
We have to cut through which suggest that change are not appropriate and we have to call out cases is closed down as Khan called in her government social cohesion freedom Thus, as an example, while it is policies to help achieve net Not acceptable to suggest that this country might impede that So I believe, my Lords, there is strategic body to be called or perhaps the office for which would subsume within it It will be tasked with collect evidence about of past policies with impacts of likely population changes, economic, environmental, ecological, societal and finally to undertake research into demographic developments and to learn from best practice around the world.
It would, however, not This new authority will be stand alone, but reporting to the Cabinet Office, Cabinet Office and of course it would also report at least annually to Parliament. It would help create conditions better and more balanced For example, is there a maximum can absorb without prejudicing What can be done to which are clearly inadequate? Is there an argument for rate amongst existing So let me conclude, my Lords, the governments may choose but recent events have shown and these pressures seem set to increase.
It is not just individual events it is about public mood. And so the issue seems set to be become a major driver of political change. Writing in The Times on Trevor Phillips article was the United Kingdom March And he went on to say, again, I quote, calling this movement rabble rousers will no longer do. Mainstream politicians Successive governments, my Lords, insinuating that those who are suggesting nothing can be done about it, and that if only everyone would stop Or finally making aspirational statements with no measurable follow through.
The mainstream parties House now need to set up a comprehensive, measurable response to public concerns. events will likely become As wild as spirits make the running, I can think of no more pressing threat to expressing internal threat to the long term prosperity and harmony of our, of our society, of this country So I'm proud and I'm pleased to be able to hold my valedictory debate on this topic.
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And I beg to move. The question is that
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The question is that My Lords, it's. An. Honour and a pleasure to. Follow the noble Lord
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Follow the noble Lord Opening of this debate,
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Opening of this debate, for his work over the over the years. And in those years, when I was And in those years, when I was we were in on the other side. In many ways I was a West So I would have come across who have played a role And I'm particularly glad because it's on a subject But for reasons which we are extremely reluctant to debate. And the noble Lords started of the problems we appear to be having, and I do sometimes wonder whether it when you had countries like either with a one child in a particularly aggressive that that that started us to shy which we shouldn't address.
But I think we'd be wrong to do so, and we'd be wrong to do And the one aspect I want to focus is actually the one on national security. And in, in, in, in the report, don't Professor Michael Clarke, his chapter is headed ask do for you and security of demographic change. And I think he very an important focus is on He takes us through the various arguments, but he essentially says the UK's it interprets its own deep either strength or a weakness on the one hand a source of deeper a series of fault lines by the country's adversaries.
And I think this danger We must not allow it to become some of the issues and having he essentially concludes that these internal and external our demographic evolution will strategies merely of hope more precise or new knowledge and understanding So I think he identifies the things which we need to look at if resilience and national defence and national security play into the debate about demography, and in a sense, the government has If you go back to the Strategic it actually has home and it very explicitly calls for And in that whole of society approach, it calls for building national resilience, increasing national warfighting readiness.
It makes it clear unity of effort across society, leading a national awareness of the threats to the UK, how defence deters and why defence requires support to And it states what ought to be The connection between the UK armed standing and necessary foundation and that all of that requires cohesion of society and for cohesion to happen, it requires certain other elements, and this may also be the moment to declare that I am an honorary captain in All right.
Thank you. And it's it's it's it's. And on top of that, I am what you I came in in the early 70s. And I do think that this have we mustn't stop I would challenge and say properly started to think about tomorrow. And if I just were to or listen to the news, Will residential doctors to provide extra places Sufficient now, as the that in demographic terms, I'm now talking about something 25 years ago that we published and it identified in terms of It made connections between to remain in the region in It therefore, said extra doctors which require between three, seven and 15 years to be fully trained, Birmingham University So there's a logic in that a regional needs demography So it's not that we don't but somehow we seem to how the decisions which we've made, which at one stage were long So when the places the Birmingham I couldn't I literally could not In 2025.
We're seeing those consequences. So we're talking about ageing population. We talk about pension contributions. We talk about inheritance tax. And as the noble Lord himself a system where we ended up creating for the funding of higher education students without having thought So I won't go on with those examples, but I want to say that when the the late Majesty the Queen Stock Exchange in the wake And she essentially said to Why did nobody see this coming? And then the answer to this at every stage someone was and everybody thought that were doing the right thing.
And what they did not do individual decisions or what the consequences of And I fear that with as, as recently told by Minister, when I raised the problem and they looked at me rather surprised and said, the facts are known now. Yes, I know the facts are known, And with a lot of what is in that report? The facts are known, but we do need that they become a meaningful And as the noble Lord said, there's and I can see the logic.
I would just like to add because this is a report by and therefore I think it would be it that in all this there is a need for And these are things which whether it's cohesion It is feeling of belonging and it is having a sense of identity. And that's why the national debate should also have a very local dimension. And I hasten to ever try But there's one Victorian value which I would like recommend to the house, and that is the civic audacity of It was a kind of confidence in place.
It was where cities other to be better than the other one. Their competition wasn't based on having to fight for a central pot of money, which was coming out of Whitehall, because that doesn't lead And I think similarly on I think we do need national figures, but I do think we need some very granular regional figures and regional data, and one which takes account of And I do think there will be best met by those local communities themselves. They have to take ownership of those.
And therefore this whole society approach, together with a bit of civic audacity, will give us, allow us but have a regional implementation be able to face the problems whether it's either in ageing populations or in other areas that we don't have the facilities in terms of schools or medical facilities, we can see them coming, we can plan, but only if we're willing have the data, but implement granular way than we do at the moment. Because if we don't start it's going to happen And we can't go on just
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I'm grateful to for his work in bringing and for giving us and for giving us I want to add my thanks to him for I want to add my thanks to him for and indeed his wider and to wish him well for the future. The authors of this report raise each of which demands careful negotiations so as to manage conflicting trade offs. It would be easy to brush of more electorally popular concerns, or to oversimplify them, But I want to put on record, firstly, questions such as what is a reasonable It may be an uncomfortable question, but what are we here for mature debates on uncomfortable questions? I want to then focus my Social Cohesion by Bishop While I would differ from Doctor I welcome his overall attention to be paid to the fabric of our society and how it is affected by the demographic shifts Perhaps, though, of course it is We're not short of policy papers, polling results or comment pieces a lonely and a polarised nation.
Ironically, that seems to be but rather what is needed beyond simply attention is action and leadership. The former faith Minister, calling for a clear and I want to add my voice to that. And indeed, my first question is to ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, can she assure us that the government cohesion strategy and doing I used the phrase social cohesion because I think what is support for newcomers to here and here my emphasis from that of Doctor Michael Nazir-ali.
I think if we were only the strength of our communities, then we would find higher loneliness, lower levels of civic participation a reduced sense of belonging in But that is not what the data shows. Once researchers control for poverty then any negative correlation and social cohesion disappears. So, yes, the government should pay be supported to become active I would give one example for Esol programmes to its previous level. It is almost impossible for somebody let alone appreciate if they cannot understand English.
But that by itself will We need to wrestle honestly with the toll taken by poverty, deindustrialisation, decades of increasing distrust and inequality. And we must take seriously the fact that the media and social media do best, commercially speaking, when And indeed, we know there are and who have no shortage of In one of the letters of the Bible, Saint Paul describes the church all different and each indispensable. This is the image which I believe should ground a social cohesion strategy.
How can we all be supported and encouraged to use our gifts to serve the common good, and to feel a sense of belonging? Even I would say, Our debate today will naturally should do and when it governments certainly They can and should invest enforce laws against discrimination, create conditions in which trust can grow but to be sustainable and fruitful, everyone has to feel a sense of I would like to see every universities, businesses, public services, sports, arts, everyone recognising that difference is part of their And so I close by asking agree with such a whole society approach,
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and can she share how My Lords, I, I deeply regret being here
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My Lords, I, I deeply regret being here today and participating in this debate. today and participating in this debate. I regret it because it is a valedictory speech of a great parliamentarian who should not be stepping should not be stepping in House of Lords terms. Just just look at him. He's still as sharp as a tack and gives He's still as sharp as a tack and gives Indeed, he's an Aston Martin if one is allowed to boast Okay, when electric terms, It just keeps going and going the family can tease him I'm certain he was and still For the last 50 years, he was and Futures Authority for ten years, and after coming to this place, he served on various committees before David Cameron asked him to perform a wholesale review of and he published his report co-authored an essay immigration, and the Levelling Up Agenda with my My Noble Friend, the Lord Horam.
Now, however, my Lords, for to 2023 that he made his to this House and indeed to the Secondary Legislation The Slcc and I had the privilege the chair of the Delegated Powers Now, I do say to my noble friend that he will be an absolute because he will not stop working. There'll be no slippers and pipe for him, and I expect to read in Yet another authoritative report I mentioned his work as chair of the Slcc. He authored an outstanding by Diktat A Call to Return which received widespread acclaim and is even more relevant today as we see more and more ill thought out bypassing proper parliamentary scrutiny.
So, my Lords, I welcome support of the Common Do not stop thinking about tomorrow, friend for bringing this vital The report rightly insists the next election economic and infrastructural will shape our country My noble friend's work sets out a clear, evidence based case population growth, driven in part by migration, pressures on housing, water, transport and public public concern about the pace of change that is real and we ignore it at our peril. As other noble Lords have pointed out, and without long term planning we risk undermining social But these are not They are practical governance thinking and durable policy responses.
However, my Lords, an additional and closely noble friend has raised be folded into our And here I want to amalgamate the theme in his report, Government by Diktat, where he warned that the increasing regulations and orders parliamentary scrutiny than primary acts has the effect of imposing hundreds of laws with minimal effective oversight, as he put it, quote, government by diktat must not become the norm, unquote. That in warning matters for the demographic debate we are First, because many of population concerns immigration settings, planning rules, environmental pyramids, infrastructure and approvals are exercised through secondary legislation, through secondary legislation and and a guidance and administrative practice.
If those levers are adjusted without we risk making long term rather than by democratic consideration. Second, when major social changes are managed through low scrutiny routes, public confidence in feeding the very polarisation and distrust that demographic report warns against. For these reasons, I urge two reports as complementary Do not stop thinking about tomorrow. Ask us to plan for democratic Government by diktat reminds plans matters as well as what we decide. Long term strategy requires not but also transparent, accountable lawmaking and genuine So what then, should we do? I suggest three practical steps that First, my Lords adopt strategy with a long term This strategy should align housing supply, water and energy planning, transport investment It should be published, updated higher and lower population local authorities and the public Second, restore and strengthen over the instruments that Where secondary legislation is clearer explanatory material, where appropriate, alternative affirmative procedures rather than negative ones.
We get almost in every bill these migration or infrastructure rules should be debated openly and honestly and, where necessary, enacted that are full democratic And third, my Lords, we public engagement and local empowerment. Citizens must be given about population projections. There are assumptions impacts on services and communities. Local authorities need resources integration and deliver National strategy without local delivery is a recipe for frustration and failure. My Lords, I suggest these steps They are about restoring the executive and Parliament, and about ensuring that long term They also respond directly to my not allow emergency modes of In times of crisis, speed is Scrutiny is essential.
So I want to return, in of my noble friend's contribution. He has done us a great demographic change as or by allowing the mechanics of He is connected statistics and legal process to That combination, my Lords data, democratic principle we need if we are to generation and succeeding generations. In closing, my Lords, by diktat report and this current one. Do not stop thinking about Let us take their combined Plan for tomorrow with and make those plans through processes that Parliament can scrutinise If we do that, we will not only manage population pressures more effectively, we will also strengthen make democratic government possible.
My Lords, my noble friend a committed parliamentarian, and quite simply a great man.
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I shall miss him immensely. My Lords, I'm. Delighted to take part
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Delighted to take part Initiated by the noble Lord, Initiated by the noble Lord, He was one of my supporters into your Lordships House in 2010, into your Lordships House in 2010, and I've had the privilege of Although sharing may not be Although sharing may not be the accumulation of paper of industry in the room is attributable. I'm afraid to him rather than to me. The noble Lord has been an exemplary whether on the front bench, in opposition, or, as we've heard, in chair of prepared to take on difficult subjects.
Some may remember the debate to which he brought such He kindly assisted me in a register of beneficial ownership for the foreign owners of and of particular relevance today. He has regularly drawn and highly contentious We will miss him very much This report, if it's the right word, It provides reliable facts essays from a number of As the library summary says, growth due to migration very special challenges including in inverted commas, extreme political But the noble Lord does not Rather, his report focuses on impact of population growth and provides, as he's told us, useful My Lords, my own view question are we entitled to decide We have certainly failed Of course, there's much to the country with new arrivals.
There is also an economic case to be made, and we have an excellent What's more, the expression of immigration can so easily No wonder centre parties tend to Will our country be happier for the vast increase in population in recent years, almost entirely due to immigration? We have an economy that and a widespread sense Of course, it's by no means but it has contributed Which reminds me of the late 1970s Jim Callaghan announced that he would think of leaving the country.
I was tempted, I may be wrong, my the population thinks that we should The Brexit vote was the sense that with freedom of movement, we were unable to determine come quite legally to live in our country. Since Brexit, we've had much of it in response But the emphasis politically Legal migration is, at least in theory, something that a country should Although there are huge practical I do accept that illegal term in that many asylum and thus the asylum seeker However, asylum seekers, those seeking more friendly are now increasing in but also as a proportion This government and the last boats crossing the channel The failure to reduce numbers to international law We have a dualist system in this law is not binding on unless we specifically We generally do not do that.
With the exception of the European which was incorporated in The debate about asylum very much on our whether they emanate from or even the rather elusive concept The Home Secretary has recently about tackling illegal migration How will this is going down and that human rights zealot, I don't know, but in my view, unless she tackles the primacy to what are often fashioned in an entirely she will never get control The recent efforts to Court of Human Rights are unlikely, I fear, to produce significant change, So I return to my fundamental Can governments say no? This report is a pertinent of the consequences of mass migration, but I fear that much of that they're looking for and that the next election will be This will largely be ignoring the reasonable if that scenario eventuates in what I hope will be could be forgiven for saying to
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My Lords. It's a great pleasure to debate and to follow the noble Lord. debate and to follow the noble Lord. Lord Foulkes. It is, however, an occasion It is, however, an occasion it marks the retirement of it marks the retirement of fair, honest and hard working colleagues. My noble friend, the Lord My noble friend, the Lord and I endorse everything his character and his generosity today. He was one of a small intelligent and constructive opposition going through for us the bleak years of the Blair government and his Since I joined the House in 2013, the noble Lord has been a great for me as I battled with including the tricky reforms on pubs.
As a Minister in the coalition government, he also made a superb contribution as chair of the Secondary As the noble Lord, Lord, my friend that is a body that effective and is incredibly important. And when we sat on the backbenches we tried to improve the immigration EU withdrawal Bill in 2020, control with a cap on new or vacancies in the UK before they or higher salary thresholds. All of these ideas were wrongly, as it's now clear. Lord Hodgson's underlying rationale, then, was the likely surge in the impact of that demand and the consequences for And on 30th September 2020, for an attitude which it will all be all right on the night.
His measured warnings on demography for demographic change were well And I'm only sorry that he had to I hope nobody will deny demography is a very important subject. It's especially important when such as we've seen in recent years. Indeed, demography in the form namely immigration, has for many years been at the top voters deem to be the most important So UK citizens were fully They judge correctly. After all, immigration of demography was plausibly a principal cause of Brexit and of the rise of As we've heard, Take Back Control to what was then regarded as for which nobody had voted And unfortunately, governments, have not shown the same clear Indeed, they frequently acted determined to see nothing This went on for many years tacit acceptance by all parties, including the party that the subject deserved more I am afraid that in House have not covered ourselves in glory.
When presented by my noble with the opportunity to to be of major importance to many voters, we have instead been much lesser issues We did not support his and we repeatedly turned a special committee of So, to our shame, we join But today we have the opportunity properly and fairly examining and we should do so in reading it, I was immediately struck by and the quality of The population grew from 55.9 million in 19 71 to 60 And of course, that has accelerated.
The fertility rate, however, has As the report shows, from the ONS are 1.41 per woman in 2024. In England and Wales, that's per woman in Scotland. Unfortunately, as Professor Pro-natal policies do not The most pragmatic the trend of older workers retiring later. So we need to make that easier employers who tend to discriminate As I found when I conducted the review another worrying statistic Sarah Harper is that the UK population over 65 is predicted to reach some 25% by the middle of That is, some 1.5 million people, and it's likely to double This means smaller numbers of productive people paying for the non-productive.
In a country where productivity the financial crisis during Now we know from the work of the proportion of the elderly will One of the reasons why growth cap on pension expenditure. In my review. We can also learn from Japan, who have a more open attitude and this could have a dramatic on the UK's future finances As those of us who are lucky working has a generally Some little known page 21 of my noble friend's report are those on National Insurance it is difficult to see how the 940,000 National Insurance numbers, can be reconciled with of work visas that have been issued now.
Lord Hodgson. I quizzed Home Office Ministers statistics during the passage but they appeared to degree of faith in their statistics and a resistance to looking forward It took several precious years for the establishment to accept that reality. Other important statistics have been that England has a has a population and will have a higher population And this is highlighted by a very interesting contribution which the noble Baroness Stewart of But all of this leads to that there is a problem finding properly based and appropriately focussed data to tell us what is going on.
It means there is a strong Following the precedent of the independent Dutch State Commission on Demography 2050, and as advocated by my noble friend, we have a problem. As the report makes clear, in of acceptability of discussing So climate change and net zero have been the subject of extensive debate, and have their own well resourced yet adding 6 to 10 million will not only set back climate change, but will have a major effect our grandchildren hospitals, housing and infrastructure.
We also need to get under As we discussed in we are now losing many entrepreneurs and ambitious because of burdens on business ushered So net migration has reduced But in the year to June 2025, we were many of them hard to accommodate on public expenditure I think we need to understand and regional ramifications much better. So in closing, I'd like to thank and his Chief Whip for this important debate and invite a new demography or population authority.
Given the expertise in this we should also tackle issues Such changes would be an appropriate Lord Hodgson's 50 year
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to public life and to My Lords.
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My Lords. Like others, I want to pay tribute to Lord Hodgson for securing this debate, but also for bringing forward what but also for bringing forward what But of course, there have been But of course, there have been And I guess over the years And I guess over the years discouraged that perhaps the day have not seized have been provided by him and his reports. But as Baroness we're all to blame in Parliament None of what is occurring Perhaps the scale of it but the trend has been there and there hasn't really been Nobody, no political party in its manifesto other than vague targets, none of which has ever been met.
And we now see the outworkings of that with the changing political landscape. And if anybody thinks this is I think they'd be very unwise It is fair to say that The Blair government, when mass when decisions were taken on the accession countries and the European Union, we took people from those there's no doubt, but we weren't It was a decision of this government And then, of course, it ultimately in this country for our And ironically, our departure with an acceleration of mass Now, I think the report has but I just wanted maybe bit to figures that most people don't or 12 million or whatever.
But let's break it down. Let's take the year 2223 to June 23rd. The net figure per week this country legally was 23,000 per week. Now imagine what 23,000 people looks like. All of them require accommodation. All of them require water 23,000 people per week. We have no possibility whatsoever of being
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able to integrate 23,000 people a week. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It went down in 23, 24 to
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It went down in 23, 24 to And it is down further since. But the net figures are But the net figures are you know the requirements you know the requirements are coming in versus who are leaving and the differences, who are leaving and the differences, those figures actually the implications of what we're facing now. All the papers and the evidence. something about the illegal or irregular immigration on the boats are making a fortune out of this misery.
But that actually, in numerical because I think we're running at about But that is a is a mere If, if, if compared to the legal means. Now, there is no doubt that we all and our our predecessors You cannot allow and expect change and there not be consequences. It's utterly impossible to imagine that you can't have consequences from that. The scale is so large, numbers matter. My own view has been for some time that we do need to institute a pause in this, because unless we slow this down consensus on what the future of I don't want to see it become which it very well might few years coming up to another election.
But if there is a consensus in mad rush of people and let's face Yes, there's the illegal side But we are issuing the visas. There is a machine and work things out, how do we integrate? How do we maximise What contributions can be made? We need thoughts along those lines. Right reverend Prelate talked about a new effectively was a new contract. We must look at all of these things, but we cannot look at them rationally And there are two areas of responsible our further which is a very expensive sector, is living on a business model It is failing to provide the trained And don't forget, we have a growing number of economically inactive people.
We are also then allowing people in on work visas at lower wages. And we see that all over the country. But those businesses don't have and other matters arising And it's not only the ones it's their dependents and families. And it goes on and on and on. We are, whether we like it or not, It's the place that has been referred nobody looks at this. We don't know who's in the place. We're losing young people. Hundreds of them have gone missing.
We don't know where they are. I've no doubt many of them are We don't know where they are. We don't know who they are. People coming in, destroying How do we know who they are? There's no checks on them. It's impossible. And yet they'll be in centrally And yet up the street here, there'll So this country has got itself And I have to say, this Parliament So I would suggest to perhaps she'll give some the idea to her right got to take a period and we've got to look at the further and we've got to look at bring people into this And that is what's been happening.
And, you know, to be perfectly for a Labour government to I mean, it's the very antithesis of what the movement I always So I would say that we haven't I have been battling with some information about the costs We got the costs of hotel accommodation. We know it's roughly between but that's dealing with that occupants is now 36,000. We have 111,000 people but are in other forms of accommodation. And of course, there was by the Audit Office the other day.
And part of the reason why I haven't got an answer to my questions is that the Audit Office has concluded Because there are different pots Money is coming from the Foreign Office or overseas development budget that has been fed in as part of this, So the figure that was produced and I got the library very kindly Office's figures for year were running at about 4.5 billion. But that doesn't touch the size. We don't take into account We don't take into account the huge cost of the legal and other services.
We don't take account of that has to wade through all this stuff. And of course, we don't take account of the policing costs where individuals clearly are misbehaving and have to be dealt with through the legal courts. So I would say it's probably it seven, £8 billion a year. And when you we said this is one issue where and have buried our heads in the sand, we're also we're pretty good at that. We haven't built a frigate in and we wonder why We've only seven that are operational, which is half what we had in 2010.
We're good at that, keeping So I would say to the Minister, please the serious implications of ignoring We all want can work together. We want to avoid extremism And it will if we continue So it is primarily But I believe other parties be very happy to work with the government to create a strategy that of achieving public support.
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My Lords. Can I begin by associating myself with all the good things that have been all the good things that have been said thus far by noble Lords about And I also want to pay tribute And I also want to pay tribute and also say a major thank you, and also say a major thank you, a thank you because back when I first met the noble when I first met the noble the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, at my first Conservative Party conference, I well remember the noble to become much more engaged in politics.
I took his advice and very quickly councillor and then a parliamentary For the 1997 election. The latter experience taught me I realised that just 20 miles from my another world of different existed and was growing rapidly. The report, Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow is excellent in many ways, and I want to concentrate upon the social and cultural impact of in particular, the challenge cultures who do not among themselves and do our British way of life, In Slough, I was quickly different communities on nearby Chalvey, which is just a few hundred These were knife fights between The authorities did nothing so as a term that, with the ascendance a crazy failure given meaningful integration At that time I was invited often saying we have too much They could see and experience and some of them were afraid.
Animosity between cultures who with them to this country as other noble Lords have One stark example is which is so appalling it degrades and shames us all as a people. I well remember young Muslim men our people do not respect your are weak and don't stand I entirely agreed with them. Multiculturalism allowed difference and we were weak and afraid to for fear of causing offence The treatment of women and nationalities is still a huge problem. The rape gangs say it all.
In addition, Pakistan outlawed funded through evermore Whilst most working British couples whether they can afford to As for the appalling disabilities which continues to have NHS children's wards for the long term, what on earth were and are of all persuasions thinking, and why has the taxpayer been funding this barbaric and immoral practice for so long? In addition, how many been for another barbaric practice FGM? In the past two years, who've been threatened My Lords. In addition, successive politicians me that polygamy is definitely So where are Anger and an enormous In 2004, when I was Blair opened our borders migration and told us people a year would come to our country.
We now know that legal migration Where was and is Meanwhile, a net 170,000 highly have left this country in the past year to work and live a different life. A life where there is an energy for An anger has been growing, the massive increase in legal migration, but also illegal migration, the latter bringing of criminal gangs to our shores. This hasn't happened overnight, however. Politicians have for too They have been blinkered A House of Commons cross-party entitled Future Maritime didn't address any threat of In addition, the disbandment together with the short sighted patrol patrol aircraft contract Cobham in 2015 meant almost maritime aerial surveillance In response to this extraordinary I had the audacity to Lordships House and I quote my immediate concern regards maritime security, particularly the security of our borders.
I say this, given the clear threats from uncontrolled Again, my Lords, that was 2015. My concern was unanswered. Recently things have deteriorated. Now we know that we have We then lose them either from Is it the Home Office not telling Or are the politicians afraid to At least the Home Office has now admitted that immigration is out of control, thanks to good journalism and our We now know that illegal arrivals as we also know that manage and assist the illegal boats is to vape shops, etc.
Why are these people who have Why are they given money to take illegal cash only networks This Monday we learnt that imported in the stomachs Why has the government Why aren't we warning every citizen that these shops may well, and often are, sanctuaries for criminal gangs money laundering into dealing in and delivering drugs. Gangs, often run by Albanians with out of the asylum hotels with I have now learned from a written question that we release convicted foreign adult male criminals awaiting HMP Huntercombe, owing to provide the necessary We are not told how many and how often.
In addition, it is now clear I've received that the Home illegal immigrants have simply in the past five years, The Home Secretary, we are However, I have now asked be removed if we don't My Lords, you can tell that I'm angry. Angry? For the love of my country For our children and our grandchildren. This is not about being far right. This is about love of country. A love that all those who live here will naturally In conclusion, we must stop bending uncontrolled immigration can Nor must we keep bending to in trying to destroy or usurp our I will not talk about rights, only others who try to change Thank you, my noble friend Lord Hodgson, for this opportunity to speak the truth.
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Yes. I think we can all agree, my Lords, that if anyone deserved a debate that if anyone deserved a debate it is my noble friend, Lord it is my noble friend, Lord Not simply because of Not simply because of with its brilliant title with its brilliant title but also a body of work which a similar kind on the demographic Also, persistent demands work in this area is my Baroness Neville, Rolfe pointed out. And also persistent demands for as my Lord, my noble friend for authoritative work on the select Delegated legislation which is and also to my noble friend for all.
Lord Hodgson's work in the party, in significant roles as Convention and all the rest of it. And that doesn't begin things that my noble friend has done. I mean, he was a member of Parliament. We were we were celebrating what He was a member of Parliament. Well, leaving aside successful businessman with a 40 year career in the private equity business and also not only as an entrepreneur. My God, we need those these putting his own skills and knowledge And on top of that had It's amazing, frankly.
What my noble friend. I'm still in awe to it and we will I can tell him that firmly. He's pointing at you, my His wife. So I am eternally grateful to my And as this particular favour of a authority it is there are a number of reasons The first of all, it's a huge issue. Population migrants are the National Health Service, and the economy is one And Baroness spoke with heartfelt It does fire up people, Secondly, we are a small island.
When American soldiers were told World War and were when they were think North Carolina were They have a 10 million population. We have nearly 70. That's the comparison that we make. We are a small island. We have to be careful about People want it. People do want a control on population. Lord Empey made the point And the report makes it clear The government should be looking Given their fiscal problems. It would not be an expensive Other countries are doing it.
Other countries Canada, Australia, Norway, Denmark are doing precisely It would reduce toxicity. And noble Prelate spoke about This would do that. This rational, objective It's a responsibility We always think we should the same sort of situation as we found it. It also has vision and a plan. People are constantly saying about the present government where's the vision? Where's the plan? This is a plan and this has a vision. Also, as my noble friend other extremist policies And the noble Baroness should be Because when I look at where in the recent elections the Conservatives reduced to ten and the Labour Party was reduced to one.
And if you look at which the noble Baroness was are all thought to be likely to go reform the next general election So she has an understanding, And also, may I say, finally, the future of democracy is at stake term autocratic societies better because we can The democracies are far too short So I think for all those and sort of instrument My personal view is that and hate most is The effect and the shortage of housing and the need to put up more housing, and therefore the demolition of I was born in 1939, in just outside present Preston, at the entrance to the Ribble Valley.
You go up the M6, turn off at Pudding Modern technology. And there you are in Grimsby. And during the war time In fact, my father was away on war work. It's a wonderful place my little pebble bashed house terraced house was surrounded by fields It was absolutely idyllic, wonderful. He was no obesity. There was rationing. So no obesity, no malnutrition. There was, I'm afraid to say, A great deal of what the official War said was an epic of flatulence which we have then the population not 70 million, 40 million.
And it's possible to have that And my little village, the next Now, as a result of what's the locals call the villages Because the fields have disappeared It's now one village village with No fields, no no woods, no nothing Get in the car. It's ridiculous. I'm reminded of Philip I don't know what House may Going, going. And that will be England gone. The shadows, the meadows, the lanes, There will be books. It will linger on in galleries.
But all that remains for us He wrote that in 1972. How much more visible it is And that's been pointed out. It's going to get worse. And the driver is immigration. I think of immigration rather like water. You know, your doctor will tell especially if you're my age, is have a bit of water every day My GP keep taking the water. It's good for you. Well, if you binge on water, it really is bad for you And the fact is, we've binged 20 years instead of taking which would be natural, which and be an adviser to the to the nation.
So that if you did slow down immigration, and I think I personally am because that would mean you probably would have in population or at least We need not fear that, as is the present situation of constantly GDP, extra GDP by persistently And other countries which immigration have exceeded For example, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea has a declining population, but its economic growth GDP per Now the UK citizens of South affluent than people of our Taiwan is even more affluent than people.
UK and Japan is not far behind. So you can do this. You can do this with In fact, it may be better Other people raise issues well. If we have less immigration, we'll have. What about all these elderly Who will be the young Will read the section by Professor The fact is, we can raise Look at all of us. How many of us are there? Age of 65 are still working You call this part time? The fact is all that could be done quite apart from technology and so forth.
But all these issues need to and the authority in would enable us to do that. Now, I've been in these debates and we usually get the argument I remember Lord Kennedy on this side when we were in power, and I can't remember who was the Minister of government Minister at the time, but they all said, oh, we can't do this. Both, both major parties. Lord MP has a point in we can't do this, we should not do this. And the arguments were would First of all, we're doing it anyway.
We're collecting all these figures anyway. Not true. I went to the Appg on Social and the Oxford Observatory of Migration Migration Observatory pointed out. The figures are not being Of course, departments here and there for their own purposes, but not in the holistic way that we need. So that argument doesn't stand up. The other argument that is usually is we don't want another quango, But as my noble friend he proposes to change into this body so there body but a replacement body for this one.
And the third argument, which is appetising or favourable, is that somehow got the whiff of eugenics about it. This is about something It is not at all unpleasant. It's a simple common sense. So I do think that this straightforward, common sense proposal, and that we have responsibility, the responsibility to future And if I say one thing to my noble as you can see, I warmly applaud He may leave, but we will not give it up. He's determined, man, and many others are determined It's a brilliant idea and all brilliant ideas like this are worth fighting for.
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Yes. My Lord sir, I also
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My Lord sir, I also Lord Hodgson, on securing this debate. Lord Hodgson, on securing this debate. He has been consistent attention to the very serious consequences attention to the very serious consequences that will flow from continued immigration on anything like the present scale. on anything like the present scale. His opening speech was masterly For my part, I've been engaged in That was with Professor David Together we set up Migrationwatch in understanding of the challenges That work is now being taken A retired British Today I'll focus just on three points.
First, the continued chaos in to be damaging to public even the integrity, of Many members of the public simply don't deter or prevent the arrival of many, They're right. My Lords, the current legal has failed and it needs to be replaced. But that is a very complex My second point is about which tends to get of the press that are It is ridiculously high, as himself over the last Net migration has net migration 3 million in round numbers.
We've been seeing levels of half 1,000,000 in 1 year, a million in the next year, a million in the next year, and half a million in It's astonishing. It's only told you this five years Just not possible to achieve. And one wonders how the government And as for the current calendar year, net migration looks like But the reasons for that My Lords, it's indisputable Party lost control of the numbers. So serious steps are now needed So far, little sign that have understood just what is required.
The Home Secretary has spoken. Well, let's see if she can get Thirdly, and lastly, my Lords, let be allowed to continue at It now poses an existential It is sowing the seeds of the cohesion built up over centuries, and it is rapidly changing Indeed, it's hard to believe not already recognised These words from Matthew Syed are I think he wrote this. The utter failure to control our borders was not an expression of democracy, but its greatest modern betrayal.
And it will reverberate That is someone of Pakistani And he can see it and he will say it. But there are not enough people. I think people see it, but there My Lords, the effect of these developments depends on the assumptions being made about future net migration and about the birth rates of different communities. It will be fair to say that the white British become a minority in about 35 years time. This is based on not migration over the coming years.
Nobody actually knows obviously, how this is going to turn out, That serious action, serious serious moves have to be taken. Otherwise we will muddle our way My Lords, the public have never and never been consulted about But the writing is on the wall. It's high time that our leaders read measures to get immigration
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Oh my Lords, it is good to be following Lord Green of Deddington because Lord Green of Deddington because I want to actually pick up on some I want to actually pick up on some But first of all, I'd like to Hodgson for this really And the report which I've read And the report which I've read toolkit for all politicians to be in seriousness, take the issue integration and social cohesion seriously. My noble friend.
My noble friend started and every single noble Lord to contribute to show we've all failed to actually I am an immigrant. I came to this country as a nine month old baby with immigrant parents from India, but my grandfather was here in 1938. We see ourselves as a family that properly taken on the values this country has enabled families And I think for far too long, with the Labour benches for And I know Lord Brook wanted to speak. Was slightly caught out on time, but this this debate should be concerned about the state of what and how I come from Leicester.
And the right reverend Prelate He will be witnessing on the discord that is happening because communities are looking and less integrating And Leicester is one of the most So I think I come from a place where, following on from I feel that every time to raise the debate around these subjects, we were shot down as being and as being those that of of harm for each other's communities. And I remember when we ID for elections debate in this chamber, the Liberal benches reminded me of of, well, the Bame community, will feel that they cannot be Now, is these sort of assumptions that have not been born here but from immigrant We, by and large, are integrated but we have focused far too long on those communities that outside of the mainstream of this country.
And we have pandered allowing them to socially up to the values that they generations had come to this country for. And that was for liberal able to be yourself, to be able to thrive, to be able to grow and not be or where you came from in So it's a really serious debate for me. I get very, very irritated an honest debate about something Most of the population, including my children are absolutely the state of the debate I grew up in the times this toxic debate was happening then, and it was difficult as a child to abused on a daily basis because We have moved quite a long way accepting that there is but it was a mix where everybody tried to be part of the wider community, where my mother, like Lord, my noble came to this country as a 20 she wanted to be part and I have said it many times.
She learned English. Now I've heard it mentioned on the new immigrants not being Let me tell you, there are who have not learned to There. Women are not allowed to go because they want control I have adult social care business, which I will highlight is in We come across families in particular communities, and they're not restricted to one faith. By the way, do not meet any They go and they are home schooled. They go to the chemist that The grocery shop is of their community.
How are we going to get this to happen in our And I think for far too long, what's the country is because we have whether it's the institutions the police, the social work, we have been complicit because when it's ever been raised, it was raised well. You're a racist and I'm afraid and it was at the detriment Now, I've been in politics. I was 11 years old when I went because it's difficult to be a little kid and have names thrown at So I went on marches because but that does not mean we accept along and force feed and not My mother actually, I spoke to my I said, mum, I'm going to this place.
She said, tell them, Tell them this. You come to this country, Now my mum is a force, for she's a force. But the one thing my mother taught ever give in to a small number They are loud voices, for the majority of this country. Somebody asked me the other day, do you think Britain's And I said, no. I said, what's happened a smaller number of people and the large majority And I think we need to And I stand here and I say to of those people across we cannot give vacuum because And sadly, for far too long, we've allowed that vacuum And I will finally say to all definitely read this and then any community that comes to this the values and And if you don't like it, then please find somewhere else to go because you are creating disharmony.
For those of us who have got This is our country. We love it to pieces. The flag belongs to me as And I will fight to did for the British Army. We will fight to the core But we will not allow negativity to be taken up by a small group of people. Apologies for my gravelly voice. I'm getting a cold it to my noble friend on the front bench. So I'm now going to end and I'm going to point it When you lifted the two cup child what you've managed to do have to take little responsibility.
I will say to you and as, as, as I come from a community as important to lift us out, to be socially mobile upwards. A lot of Indian families with £3 in their pockets and have been very successful because the education system here allowed them to be. So please, please think very
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that pushes people backwards Yeah. I'm sorry. My Lords, may I begin
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My Lords, may I begin if perhaps a rather general one, as the incoming director general of as the incoming director general of which has an interest in these My Lords, it's a pleasure My Lords, it's a pleasure and a pleasure to follow Burma, for a very powerful Burma, for a very powerful that I think compelled attention. It is also a particular as many other noble Lords have said, to be able to support the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, today, and to pay tribute to all his work over many, many years.
And the report on population which entirely characteristic of of issues which he's and I think is particularly needed for there is, without We've heard them already today, But as the report notes, the UK population has risen A third of that increase has arrived And another who knows how many five, six, 7 million may arrive over Now, population growth on on an already densely packed island, and particularly in which is now one of the most densely Apart from island states, underlined in Lord Hodgson's report.
This obviously poses challenges public services, social And as we've heard, the implications not taken into account systematically And indeed, the debate on as if expressing doubts about whether rapid population growth is desirable or possible to accommodate marks And one of the important things is that it is a way of of those taboos about and it's very necessary polling shows that the public feel that the population is growing too fast and that immigration has been too high. They know that something is amiss.
Now, my Lords, we've we've discussed those issues already at some length today. There's one particular aspect which has been mentioned, And that is the question of the number of children that And that's really where Just reviewing the facts briefly. All Western countries, with have seen significant and the UK has current children per woman is 30 years ago, all of our population of course, but 30 years ago, all all of our population came from births, from natural increase.
15 years ago it was 5050. Now births and deaths are our population growth is And this is historically unprecedented, or at least since the fifth century AD. Now, why has this decline Some of this is obvious. Social changes are real Women have more choices. Education and careers rightly come first. Marriage is delayed. But these changes have been in They surely account for rate over the 1960s and the 1970s. But since then, between about 1980 the number of children per woman replacement rates, but not so far from it.
But since 2015, fertility has fallen As I said now, it's and it often is attributed to particularly British factors such as high housing themselves driven by or to attack a system that is compared remarkably unfriendly to families. But in truth, that isn't and a similar trend is visible across most European countries is more The starting points are different, but the trend is still Now why is this happening? The only honest answer to give, I think, is that we don't really One can, of course, speculate across Europe since the financial There is perhaps a growth I don't know, I feel it's but certainly present of those who could it be the growth in the boom in dating apps, the growth in, shall we say, novel conceptions of sex and the family have had some effect on all of this, my Lords, unpopular though it may be The increasing recourse to abortion now at its highest ever level in this country, a quarter of a million abortions in 2022, not far off now, half clearly has an impact on the figures.
Or could there be something more some sort of loss of More broadly, some say this is Others see it as a decline in confidence Who knows? Whatever it may be, when people be better than the present, And the fact that Israel, a country with strong civilizational self-confidence, amongst many other things, This trend suggests there is at however, we don't really know. And that's part of it particularly difficult to to deal with. But the fact that we don't know isn't We have to deal with they exist whether we like them or not.
We have to try and find them if we can't change them. So what can we do? Well, I identify, and here I'm notably Doctor Paul Morland. There are three possible The first is to try the fertility rate back As I say, so far only this amongst developed nations and other countries that have tried extra public support or whatever. The French, the Hungarians have And this suggests to is an economic aspect to this problem, it isn't really the whole of the problem.
The second approach is to demographics and simply accept lower fertility in but invest heavily in reform of the labour market this older population with fewer children. Now that's the solution set In the noble Lord Hodgson's report, Here. The basic difficulty, though, is that to increase we need in this country and across Europe, to embark on a campaign of for which no political party and which perhaps ageing reluctant to to contemplate. Now, the third approach actually chosen over the last 30 years, along with most developed bring in a replacement population in port workers and their families to maintain the worker to dependent that the native population cannot.
Now the problem with that is not actually a solution First of all, the economic is weaker than is often claimed. The work of Doctor David Miles shows that mass migration does It may produce a growth in but not per capita. And of course, there are and other consequences Second, a more fundamentally, mass migration is simply a way If you try and hold the dependency that is, at about its current 3 to 1, to ensure that always enough working age people to support people in retirement, simple maths shows you end up to three quarters of a million Pretty well now by 2050, a third of the British population I personally do not particularly I do not think it's and it may, in any case, not be a solution that's of the growing skepticism That, again, has been touched So I think we have to exclude that option.
The option of importing the option that is before down close to zero for a prolonged period. If we choose to resume it later on a more. Selective choosier basis, then we can. But it does, of course What can we do to solve it? First of all, try that involves boosting economic growth, building more houses, reforming taxation, doing what we can to change and cultural messages that are around us. But as I say, we should not count on that.
We can't count on that actually working. The second is the Japan solution a more productive workforce And luckily, the solutions there more reform, more incentives However challenging that all looks. And I think the third thing is to pick up is a bureaucratic one, if you like, is to pick up the recommendation for an independent advisory providing us with honest, about the trade offs and the numbers. And I would add to that, I think tasked with studying trends in It should be tasked with looking countries across the world have made and more broadly, what tells us about managing And finally, my Lords, as I said, we need to break the taboo I remember the scorn that was poured upon politicians who my friends on this, sharing my political opinions, people like former MP Miriam Cates When they sought to raise these questions 2 or 3 years ago, they persisted.
Credit to them. And now, slowly, the birth rate We can't avoid it. It's very welcome, honest, open, evidence based discussion between fertility and migration. The economic and social is vital if we're going to restore public trust in our institutions ability to solve these difficult questions. And the noble Lord, Lord a vital contribution to that conversation, and I hope it marks the beginning, not the end, of a more one of the defining My Lords.
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I to congratulate my noble for the debate, and for for the debate, and for Now, the report makes Now, the report makes we will continue to need high quality, highly skilled individuals above all, highly skilled individuals above all, who can contribute directly who can contribute directly But now, every country in competing for that same Some are doing so with golden visas, others with citizenship by investment. And today we just heard about Yet contributing to Britain's you to actually be physically In fact, many highly productive else while still contributing in My Lords, the government should establishing a British A digital resident would not need but could incorporate a British company, open a British bank account, benefit bid on British contracts, hire local transact in pounds and pay tax placing any strain whatsoever Now this is not a silver but it does allow us to think Other nations have experimented Estonia being the clearest example, and Estonian digital residents companies without ever But the UK could offer a far more and the highest performing Along this, my Lords, we should recognise the value Many countries now offer one year and work temporarily without being and and these countries are attracting Now, my Lords, we don't offer and we're leaving this Whereas Portugal, Spain Finally, my Lords, as it is absolutely true and a very good thing that we will see robots deployed at scale in industries across the country, including in agriculture Now, sooner or later, harvesting in Kent and they will be And we're witnessing into manufacturing across much of which is possible only because factories are now highly automated.
This shows robotics doesn't kill and it attracts global capital And my Lords, I would urge noble Lords Robots are nice. They do not require GP appointments. They don't need housing, they And so far they haven't willingly They will unquestionably local industries and new opportunities Maintaining these renting them out all components My Lords, this report is called In doing so, we must economic contribution will come in new and exciting forms some human, some digital and some robotic. And in thinking about tomorrow, we must be ready for what
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Thank you. Very good. My Lords.
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My Lords. So that with apologies for not I would like to make a small I would like to make a small My Lords, I have two reasons for My Lords, I have two reasons for Firstly, I wanted to pay Firstly, I wanted to pay Lord Hodgson in this his We all are. We all are sad at the departure from this house of the noble Lord Hodgson. But we do have the benefit. As Baroness Buscombe pointed out of of him kindly leaving behind his wife.
And we will therefore continue to have the benefit of Baroness My Lords, my second reason for was in my maiden speech in this a 53 years ago, I debated and the need for a UK population policy My Lords, I have to say that despite my speech, has been negligible. And we have the evidence of this excellent report in 1971, the population of the United But now there has been My Lords, in that debate, responsible parents had no That rather puzzled me could produce a point five of a child, and it was then became a matter me because of my wife then So I was point five irresponsible.
According to the view in the debate, on this very important subject, The rise in population causing strain on vital components in our society. The National Health Service, housing, demographic balance are all And there has been too much social unrest, particularly arising out of immigration. And I can do no better. My Lords, in this brief intervention, and I hope the whips are noticing that I'm keeping to the promise of four minutes indeed is only three at the moment, and I'm glad for the my noble achievement that this vital at the very end of And it is that we must we did or did not have and adopt policies that more of the settled population of the country, whose general welfare must surely be the primary objective of any government.
I endorse those words, my Lords, obviously because of Lord But I also think it's a very important He's been a as everybody has said, he's been a respected member of the House, indeed a great servant of I think he represents all and we shall miss him. During the 14 years that I shared some part of over in Fielden House with him. So I had the opportunity, not but we were in the same over for votes and to and we talked about the merits We talked about three We talked about the prospects and we talked about in that we were going on or we'd been on.
And I've always respected that he's so bravely led at times. We've already mentioning the Holocaust memorial His bravery and his interventions. I couldn't quite believe retiring when I talked to He's always seemed to me and the only consolation is, as others have said, that we will have which will provide a vital link with him, but we shall miss his contributions, his courage and his tenacity like this one today. And we wish him, I'm sure, a very happy and long fourth So on the report I'd In total I thought it was fair, timely, provocative and it's encouraged and I think it's an example on on an issue that troubles him.
And I congratulate him on it. The only criticism I have, and that's what I'm going is that I think although Japan and Holland, I think it lacks because the pressure of It's not just the demand from inside, And we live in an age sadly reminds me of the 1930s, Although it ended in a war, it did lead to a generation of international cooperation, trying to address some of the problems But today we have not mass unemployment, We have a due to the huge pace of change, international competition of traditional jobs and occupations, we have absolutely stagnant We have nationalism, or at least Nation all the efforts after the war to provide cooperation And we face a situation in this country of an aging population where there's provision of unimaginable consequence And actually, I have to say, closer than at any time since So immigration and population growth, are very high on the agenda.
And it's not surprising. It's a key issue, public because people think it has been extraordinarily so. I know it's had the problem but clearly the numbers show how And the result of that is of immigration are now being challenged. I also accept that short term fixes but I do agree with the report that it is the long term trends which need attention, I don't think, and I'll have a time sink. I think whenever we talk about we must recognise that been benefits from it, the open economy, the dynamic energy that it's given us, the commitment to education coming here for education to our culture and our community.
We've only got to see the schools in our immigrant areas of London and elsewhere, where aspiration has actually strengthened my family. The last generation was half Dutch. The next generation will be half and it's given our family huge And I don't think whenever we should forget the commitment immigrants have made to and we shouldn't underestimate Now, obviously, the country wants They don't like lack of control, I think Lord Forbes made That is the principal People think immigration Now we know the boat migration problem is not the sole problem of immigration, but at the moment it's defying control.
And it seems unfair to that people are trying to jump the queue. But it's only one part, But it attracts attention And I, I, I think do that and I support their but it's not it's not going to be I actually think about I have to ask the question, I think it has actually, because I think the French are not wholehearted behind us, and they don't have the pressure If we were a member of the EU, we we're outside Europol and we And I think take back control has Immigration in, in reality Sovereignty is not actually very because all the pressure And unless Europe can address the numbers coming across from the Mediterranean, it's not going to be easy to stop Immigration is an international then I think we don't perspective in dealing with it.
Then I think we're losing a trick. Have we assessed, for the cutbacks that are now being made in overseas aid by ourselves in huge cutbacks and women are being unable to get the help they would they would get, which would be available So we're worsening the problem. The pressure of immigration. And I think those who of the European Declaration I accept the point that to get consensus and and reform, but it needs redrafting. There's an international But withdrawal from it, from will simply make the problem worse.
I'd like to mention, in finishing we've not had much discussion of our university sector Students are not the problem, in my But the report makes the excellent that the students move onto and that contributes to We should take the student When we're talking about others huge benefits for in having these overseas students. And we know about the soft power, but we do need to deal with the situation where people are staying on simply When our own people have not I welcome the debate.
I think Lord Hodgson for his and I wish him every good
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My Lords. I want to begin by putting the contributions in this the contributions in this Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, over Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, over I have only been House for ten of those years, but it has been an honour but it has been an honour to serve alongside him during this time. He has been an active and effective He has been an active and effective and he will be greatly missed. The heartfelt tributes from today are testimony to I'm delighted to take part in this debate.
To take note of this report. Don't stop thinking about tomorrow. The the issues raised in the report speak to one of the most consequential policy challenges of our age future of the United Kingdom. My Lords, the authors of Don't demand that we confront The the, the demographics They shape our economy, our our culture, our infrastructure Demographic change is one of and least planned for forces And as the noble Lord, we should not be afraid to discuss it. My noble friend Baroness Verma, in also made an eloquent, eloquent Democracy, demography and integration have been swerved for far too long.
My Noble Friend's report is It is evidently the result and proposes a number of recommendations which we should consider carefully. I congratulate him on it. One of the most impressive features of this report is the fact that it shines a light on so many of the areas on biodiversity, on national security, on public services, Increasing migration is as the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington and among this report makes population controls and forward planning, the pressures on public services, infrastructure and the environment We need to consider how to ensure that migration predictable and aligned with Delivering and effect The report calls for.
My Lords. The report emphasises that particularly high net migration, a place in substantial burdens education and welfare and infrastructure. And it warns that the United Kingdom could become one One of the most populous countries Yet, crucially, population an an increase in living standards. Indeed, as the report notes, rising aggregate GDP often stagnant productivity relying on an ever increasing levels to boost headline This point was well made by my What matters is what Living standards for person, not My Lords, economic success must better skills and strong Not continually importing for structural weaknesses.
Relying on low skilled As the noble Lord, Lord Empey emphasised, we must prioritise our own skills, programmes and address the challenge of upskilling The report warns repeatedly up GDP growth or to compensate will lead to long term fiscal strain. My noble Baroness friend, spoke persuasively on this point. Even if population growth does, population growth does The medium term projections around 10 million people driven overwhelmingly by immigration. And it is for this reason that some kind of mechanism to manage migration, combined with reforms ensure that only genuinely high skilled applicants earning at thresholds can come to the UK.
This is about controlling so that population levels aligned with public sentiment, and consistent with The report underscores growth with housing and infrastructure. The government has pledged 1.5 million and while that is an important commitment, the report rightly notes that new supply will struggle to keep At this point, again was picked up by my noble friend Baroness Neville-rolfe. How house prices have already in part because demand has If the population grows by as some projections suggest, then 1.5 million homes alone will or alleviate overcrowding unless accompanied by strategic planning The report rightly highlights with strain already As the noble Baroness, waiting lists remain above projections make clear that an additional 10 million would exceed would further exacerbate pressures.
As the report notes, increases demand for healthcare. While the fiscal contributions depending on skill level and integration, we need to shift our immigration high contributing migrants investing in domestic training. This is particularly the case social care and essential At present, over 20 000 year do not secure Yet we continue to rely trained staff to fill NHS vacancies. This is not sustainable. We need to expand domestic capacity and apprenticeships, ensuring that young people in that are desperately needed on welfare.
The report emphasises the importance noting that population growth pressures on the welfare Indeed, depending on the composition it can worsen them and that is why we must prioritise prioritise making work pay, incentives for labour My Lords, this report paints a picture of a country at a demographic crossroads. As the noble Lord, Lord there is no doubt that if we continue relying on immigration as we will face mounting housing, infrastructure Although my noble friend Lord case for robots to swerve we need to consider more carefully how we manage migration with focus on selective, high skill immigration, welfare reform and a coherent long term housing and infrastructure strategy.
So I ask the noble Baroness, the Minister, directly to explain how a long term demographic strategy Will the government ensure inform policy across departments, from housing and transport And will they finally accept the default solution to labour My Lords, there can be no both the current challenges our country faces and the country our we cannot shy away from these issues. We must consider and have an answer to we intend to reduce our and focus much more on increasing and building a sustainable economy.
These are just some of the key challenges and questions which the government faces. It is not possible to reflect highlighted in the report but I am pleased that noble Lords these themes and core challenges to such as the environmental factors referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the fertility issues raised and especially the strains on a number of noble Lords such the Lord Bishop of Leicester, my demonstrated by my noble As my as my noble friend Lord Hodgson.
Highlights in the foreword of his report. The British have been repeatedly parties of all stripes which a limited number of highly a policy with which few would disagree. Instead, they have seen of primarily low, low, The debate today has been why we have seen those with their consequential on in the past, and most importantly, to ask ourselves what to put us on the right Looking to the recommendations, a twin track approach with on government alongside a new objectives and provide I entirely accept that demographic policy currently lacks coherence with responsibility the Department of Education, each one pursuing its own objectives We have a system that is The report recommends that the government should be required to monitor and disclose the likely change in the near and long term.
This touches on a point of real concern It was a little over two weeks Lord Jackson of Peterborough, forced Ministers to review of students who have had criminality during Border security, asylum The government initially that data on issues as The government should be seeking to build greater trust with the British people, and refusing to publish data So can the noble Baroness, the Minister. Please reassure your Lordships House that the government will take a more positive attitude towards requests And while we are on the issue of data, I would briefly mention that my right hon.
Friend Nick Timothy MP, asked Ministers last month if data on the economic contributions in line with the Danish model. The Minister refused as better data and greater I hope the noble Baroness, the Minister, will be able to give us an assurance reviewing the current to with a view to improving transparency. The report includes a recommendation for a new authority called the office for Demographic Change or Office My noble friend is right consider our existing structures for monitoring immigration not to mention immigration, which is of such concern to leave the country are our wealth creators and high skilled young We do need the right and reporting so that Parliament, and in turn, the British people, have the information they about the future of demographic about the future of demographic policy, the importance of long term monitoring was brilliantly explained by my I am personally always skeptical of the creation of new NPS, as over time, public bodies often come to establish and I would be interested friend how he would plan But there is certainly a strong My Lords, my noble friend is Ministers must be held to account, and we should continue to explore by which we can hold on the future demography of our country.
Finally, it only remains to congratulate my noble friend on securing this debate on the day that he has chosen The debate, which has the core challenges we face as a nation, is a testament to his a brighter future for our country. As a devoted public servant, I know
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wishing in wishing him all Outside your Lordships House. My Lords, I thank the noble Lord,
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My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, The report, Don't Stop The report, Don't Stop is a timely contribution to our prosperity and the future of prosperity and the future of Many noble Lords have already highlighted the noble Lords distinguished career, the noble Lords distinguished career, and I would like to add my thanks for his public service and for his notable contributions to my County of The My Lords, the report highlights our nation is currently experiencing.
But before I touch on also reassure the noble that I will respond to and I will reflect on some of and answer some of the questions been raised and will, as ever, write. But I would appreciate this has discussion and debate. I also should highlight to the noble Lord that before the general election, my boss was Sir Trevor Phillips, who he cited so I could a great deal of trouble by My Lords, this government recognises in this document the strain on our NHS, the impact and the importance of maintaining We are not alone in As the report notes, through its many countries across the world are Before I move on to there are a couple of points I'd like to make in response to the noble Lord, Lord Horam, who raised and Staffordshire and where My Lord, I am well versed.
Having helped to lead the campaign and even and only this week, the now former leader of my county council had to Staffordshire County Council had to resign for his support of white My Lord, I am aware of what is at As the Prime Minister has for the values which govern our country, and it's incredibly important And with response to Baroness very powerful speech like her, I would suggest. That's why both the noble Lady And she ensured that to fight back against racism and that and that those of who I was and not what I did.
However, I think my I went on my first demo Moving to the report in front of us. My Lords, I'd like to address some of And and the points that noble Lords This government has a system which works in attract attracting while being fair and firm. The modern challenges can present do not overwrite the millions of individual stories of people who have come to this country over the centuries, built our nation in partnership with those already here and today are our colleagues, our neighbours, our My Lords, I am here because and found sanctuary in our great country.
It was a brave decision which they were to flee But the scale of pogroms and I am very grateful that Now, since taking office, this action to reduce the number particularly in some of Our recent tightening of the rules and the review of the graduate the government's commitment to However, fair migration. Fair management of migration We must also address the consequences of population change already in the system, as outlined by the report's Given the request for which I will come to later in my speech, I think it would be helpful to that the latest figures estimate in the year to July to June, a fall If we're going to talk about data, we should also absolutely be Turning to some of the points In response to the noble the and the issue of asylum seekers, the government has published a new significant reforms to the UK's The statement outlines the government's objectives package of measures to fairness and public Elements of this include.
Refugee status will be temporary, granted for 13 months Settlement will no longer be automatic. Instead, there will be a 20 year ensuring long term Refugees will be able to switch route to access family reunion with new fees and conditions, in accordance with This will enable them to time before they can settle both enabled and the noble Lord Stoneham from slightly different positions, I'd suggest, touched on the Noble Lords will be aware that only accompanied by my noble addressed the Council of Europe's Ministers in Strasbourg to talk to make sure that the ECHR with regards to illegal migration, and to secure the convention's future with regard to immigration and the effect on GDP raised by the noble Lord, Lord MP and the noble Lady Baroness Finn.
The UK's immigration system is and accessing highly who boost the supply of skills These individuals are the most and that is why the government has access to our highly talented visa system back towards attracting The government is clear that fall from the very high We plan to achieve this by reducing lower skilled migration and groups with lower participation in the labour And the noble Baroness also raised the issues of skills and productivity. Increasing skills in is responsible and provides the opportunity for and improve their quality of life through short courses funded by the Growth and Skills Levy and partnership Skills England will work in to support clearer landscape and training products The Department for Work with employers to fill the vacancies.
They have to get the right or set them on the path to Turning to the issue of work MP since the introduction of the salary requirements must be paid whatever is higher out of the general threshold for the route or the going rate for that occupation. With an absolute minimum an overseas worker has to be paid. This is designed to place maintaining access to but also ensuring UK resident something he would expect The government is clear that cannot be a cheap alternative to fair pay, and this must be reflected in future On that point, I'd also like to who raised a series of interesting and I will reflect on his comments, Given the subject of this report, he My Lords, I have about tomorrow in front of me, and I am very disappointed Lords have not used Turning to the point of international visas to work visas raised by the government's approach and visa controls to skills so that immigration is not training or tackling workforce This approach will be important of the government's broader agenda.
My Lords, moving from the UK has experienced a sustained economic and technological change which, alongside 14 years of Tory austerity, has put increased pressure on public We have seen tension, frustration manifested in the most in I should at this point put on record Where Social, as well as CST, where social cohesion Counter-extremism work were my core roles. I would like to reassure these issues are being and especially reassure the Bishop of Leicester, that this is key to what we seek to do.
The Ministry of Housing, Government is coordinating efforts to consider a longer term, more strategic approach working in partnership communities and stakeholders complex deep seated issues in our places. As the right reverend this is a whole society approach. As part of our Pride in Place strategy, we are providing up to £5 billion over ten years to support over 330 communities across the country, helping to build strong, resilient I want to put on record city of Stoke on Trent are participants, including in my husband's you know, just for the record, will each receive up to £20 Our long term investment is designed but also to rebuild social capital and strengthen community ties in areas with a portion of funding expected to Importantly, we are empowering communities to make decisions that shape their places.
We will continue to seek ways working in partnership with local Moving on to a consistent theme of today pressure on public services and housing. My Lords, the ten year health set out a vision for how the government will make an NHS fit for the future. The plan set a clear and stakeholders and the public on the future shape of care through three radical shifts hospital to community, analog to digital Specifically, as was raised by. I still want to call her my noble friend, even though she's Engaged workforce is central to delivering the government's objectives for the NHS.
The ten year health plan, set out the vision for how the government will make the NHS fit for the future. A new workforce plan will be how the workforce will be to deliver the ten year health plan, where they should be deployed This includes how staff have better training The new workforce plan will be with the skills needed to enable Building on that point, as was raised NHS England will shortly phase of the Medical Education working with partners to design a package of reforms that will provide doctors with the skills they need to of our patients within a modern NHS.
This includes work focused on procedural, to ensure rapid acquisition a and to develop a curricula that delivers the skills needed for a community based, digitally enabled healthcare system. My Lords, moving on to as noble Lords have recognised, delivering 1.5 million This Parliament as set out We have already taken urgent reforms and a record to kick start social at scale across the country, my Lord. Houses are homes which anchor communities. It is vital the homes are well designed and in places where we will ensure that we build.
What we build is supported by Well designed place making, working housing associations and the wider sector. Moving on to employment by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville Rolfe. Professor Harper's an ageing UK workforce is People in the UK are living longer, the age of 50 in the workforce is growing only look at your Lordships House. Good work and careers have wellbeing and financial resilience. Work gives people purpose and an important means particularly important for people who experience loneliness in later life.
As the right reverend Prelate highlighted, our focus is on lifelong learning, upskilling and incentivising longer, healthier working lives to maximise the potential of our domestic workforce. The DWP currently offers for all ages through its network of jobcentres across the UK and through contracted employment programmes. In addition, work coaches plus champions working across Champions provide a critical layer to ensure the needs of My Lords, I have many points weren't very many points So I will write to who was the main person to raise it.
Moving on to security, where My Lords, Professor Clark, worked with when he acted as an adviser to the House of Commons Defence Select Committee and who is a great analyst, addresses two areas of the state from external threats He focuses in particular and on threats to national from state directed subthreshold warfare. At this point, I should refer to As with my noble friend Baroness Stewart, I am also an honorary And while and while we are relating to my to well just a quick response to to reassure him that the both the type 26 and the type 31 frigates currently being built And to reassure the noble Lord, when I did go and check with who usually sits in front of him.
As Lord Stoneham emphasised the issues of security are key and and affect in part of are outside of our immediate scope. These are both important aspects Our National Security sets out the government's Its objectives include and making the UK a harder and for gangs engaged But beyond our borders, we must consider the effects of the very changes which will take place in other The strategy is clear that we are entering a period of significant Demographic change will issues with challenging As we set out in the strategy, our statecraft will need to ensuring we can defend our supply chains from increased competition, improving our resilience strengthening our key alliances to tackle together Noble Baroness lady Stewart what's in the national security strategy, so I won't read out we I'm trying to make My Lords, in terms of how we legislate, which was raised by the noble in terms of Henry VIII following on from previous I want to reassure your the Parliamentary Business and Legislation Committee will review every single There are circumstances bills to contain substantial but departments with bills powers must produce detailing each power and which is published on on.
On. Introduction. Noble Lords are aware that we are volume that had previously been My Lords, moving on to the lack of data to understand trade offs and what is happening on migration raised Baroness Noble, Baroness Lady Forecasting net migration The impact of external events, as well as uncertain policy measures on migration trends, make future migration hard to predict. Not all impacts of migration as set out by the Migration Advisory Committee in their While there is significant body that high skilled immigrants there remains a lack of evidence wider impacts on productivity, The ONS is making more data in its estimates for net migration.
The ONS keeps published estimates with estimates in the last 12 The revisions published primarily due to changes which have led to improvements although the numbers have changed, the overall trend for net The Home Office are continuing In May 25th, the Home Office linking sponsored work with HMRC pay data the earnings and tax But I appreciate that not Lords are covered there, I'm going to slightly over apologies. The key recommendations the creation of a new body that would provide a commentary on to undertake research into demographic transparent forum to these challenges were The government has made strengthen the Migration to deliver several key a new remit with a new group to support a more joined up approach to migration and labour market policy.
The Labour Market Evidence Group consists of the Migration Advisory Committee, the Industrial Strategy the Department for Work and Pensions, Skills England and Equivalent the devolved governments as set out The Labour Market Evidence Group has an ongoing standard function to work together to gather and share evidence training levels and participation including a devolved and regional levels. It will focus on sectors, which are central to industrial strategy, which currently have high levels their workforce or which are and will make recommendations where workforce strategies are needed, or where the labour market My Lords, this report is a timely House and across all parties to The people of this country a government that plans for tomorrow.
We are committed to taking action now providing the clear leadership planning that the British people deserve. I want to thank the noble Lord, and for the opportunity to debate And in the words of Fleetwood Mac, who I assume he is very fond
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I wish him well in his retirement. My Lord. It's been a long, and I'm extremely grateful to and I'm extremely grateful to For the people who said Well, thank you very much. Well, thank you very much. Not very deserved, but it's very kind. What was really encouraging for What was really encouraging for suggestions about how the ODC suggestions about how the ODC could be made more appropriate, and that's what I'm really interested in, is getting this conversation get something important into the public consciousness that we are aware of and are tackling this problem head on.
And I think the only problem there isn't a problem because and we do need to face up to it. If I could just just pick up because I'm aware we've I did want to thank my noble Lord Green of Deddington, who's been on this for a long time. My noble friend, Lord Horam, who I was hoping to hear from, It went sideways. And of course, I hadn't a hidden long march in who'd been at it for 53 years, apparently. That's very good.
So can I ask him to come in I think it's important that about how these are my noble friend, Baroness Neville Rolfe raised the impact on older people. 30% of people aged over Now, can that be a good and useful way for us as a society to be behaving? And I thought the right reverend Prelate Bishop of Leicester for the first time, for the first time from that bench, What? He said, there is a question about Really, really important to make because in Let's have safe and legal routes they're coming from And I really I really appreciate support.
What he said. Then my, my roommate, me on the straight as we've seen his legal to ferret a problem in no time at all. And finally, my noble well worthy guerrilla fighter. But unfortunately, the guerrillas had to get back to the hills, didn't they? Because we couldn't get the colleagues in the Commons to pick up But the background to it, my Lords, is that the executive is taking part, the expense of the legislature And when we had we had our, our, noble Lord, Lord Collins of Hybrid, my great friend used to nod benches about how he had Now that he's on the other side somehow.
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I'm not sure we can quite do it that way. So I want, I think we there's but it has to be done from here, from the backbenches, and it without which the Commons will say. Or the government will say. This is the unelected the elected Commons how to do their work. That's game over. Once that, once that, that's a dog So, my Lords, I'd like to thank I'd like to finish it with with one When I, when I was younger, I went and we used to have people come to tell us something about So we had a concert On this particular occasion, we had management and how that was key And he introduced to us a man who was the first Afro American The Mississippi Delta found scrape a living out of cotton If you grow cotton out of it was depleted and you did break crops such as sweet potatoes and peanuts.
But he wasn't just an agronomist. He had a he was a philosopher. And that day, 60 years ago, we And I'd like to use those He said, This is Mr. Carver's words. How far you go in life depends on compassionate with the old, sympathetic with the striving Because someday you will And with that, my Lords, I take my leave.
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The question is that as many of that opinion shall say,
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as many of that opinion shall say, content and the contrary, not My Lords, I beg to move
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My Lords, I beg to move That the House do now adjourn.