Afghan Relocations: Special Forces

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Monday 5th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, while we welcome the Government’s eventual acknowledgement of the failure of the ARAP scheme to appropriately protect the Triples, I am appalled at how long it has taken to get to this point. The Government have launched a review. They are now promising an independent reassessment process that will be followed by a reconsideration of individual decisions which are not considered to be robust—all this while the Triples are either in hiding in Afghanistan or in Pakistan fearing imminent deportation.

James Heappey in the other place pledged that these reassessments would be done in 12 weeks. Can the Minister confirm that they will be concluded by the end of April and that the timescale will include the reopening of ARAP claims where appropriate? Given the number of people currently stranded in Pakistan, can the Minister update your Lordships’ House on current conversations with the Government of Pakistan to ensure that there are no further deportations to Afghanistan while this process is under way?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, your Lordships will remember from when we went through this issue the last time that it is not easy. I do not accept that we have made a nonsense of it. What we are trying to do is get it right. Some inconsistencies came up during the process that needed addressing, which is what we are trying to do. The information was held by the Afghan national Government. It was not held by us. Your Lordships will remember that we had 142,000 applications, of which 95,000 were original. We needed to get to the truth of it. As a result, we are looking again at all the refusals, which is the right thing to do.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, these Benches welcome the Government’s change of heart and their agreement to look again at the applications of the Triples. There has been a real problem with ARAP and ACRS. People have not been able to make appeals.

Can the Minister reassure the House that His Majesty’s Government understand the urgency of dealing with these appeals immediately? While 12 weeks is absolutely the longest that it should take, ideally it should be much sooner. Can he tell us what Minister Heappey in the other place meant by saying that a new safe route is by the ACRS? The SNP had asked how we could have new safe routes. The fact that you have been granted ARAP does not mean that you can get out of hiding in Afghanistan to the United Kingdom. What will the Government do to enable people to get here safely?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I assure all noble Lords that we are in very close contact with the highest level of the Government in Pakistan. They are being extremely co-operative on the situation. Regarding the 12-week timeframe, we would like to get this sorted out as soon as possible. It has gone on for a very long period, but please keep in context the 142,000 applications. It has not been easy, and it is important that we get the safe routes correct so that people can get out of Afghanistan. Once they are in Pakistan and get the letter, we can get them out. We got another 2,900 people out fairly recently. It is a challenge, but we are getting there.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, what the Minister has said today is very welcome, even if he is denying that it is a change of policy, which of course it is. It would have been quite shameful to have continued on the basis on which we were proceeding before this change. Can he or his colleague in the FCDO say whether reconsideration is being given also to those who worked with and for the British Council over many years? I declare that I negotiated the opening of the British Council in Kabul some 60 years ago.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I will certainly take up that question about the British Council. The Government are absolutely clear about their responsibilities under ARAP and ACRS, and are doing their absolute best to ensure that we end up with a fair and equitable solution.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that the Government have undertaken to review all those applications that were deemed to be ineligible. Some of those very brave men are in hiding in Afghanistan, and some of them are in Pakistan, but some are here. In the chaos of leaving Afghanistan, they were all denied access to the evacuation flights. They all knew the Taliban knew where they lived. They were forced, in those circumstances, to get here by irregular and dangerous routes. Will the Ministry of Defence undertake not to make them ineligible for ARAP because of the way they got here?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, my understanding is that that is absolutely correct. Everything is being considered on a case-by-case basis, and the information now needs to be as pure as it possibly can be to enable us to decide whether those employees of the Afghan Government are eligible to relocate into this country.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend said that the Afghan Government were being co-operative—what form is this co-operation taking?

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[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I believe that I said the Pakistan Government. I do not think the Afghanistan Government are particularly co-operative.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his thoughtful answer to my noble friend, but how does his answer square with the Government’s current and proposed future policy on people who come here via irregular routes? When legislation that has already passed is brought into force, and when proposed legislation passes, the Secretary of State will have no discretion even to be kind to people such as the brave men and women we have been discussing but will be under a duty to send them to places such as Rwanda.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am not 100% clear on that point, but I know that, where inconsistencies and inaccuracies have come to light, we are going to reconsider—with a completely new team of people and a completely new assessment—to make absolutely certain that we get the people here who should be here.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, as one who knows that part of the world—Pakistan, India and even Afghanistan a little—is my noble friend confident that our high commission in Pakistan has sufficient resources supplemented to help the existing people, so that this process can be speeded up?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. I will ask my colleagues in the Foreign Office and find out.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister has said that each case will be considered individually, which of course is good, but he will be aware that it is often extremely difficult for applicants to produce incontrovertible evidence of their entitlement. Will he assure the House that, in cases where there is some fuzziness and a little bit of doubt, the Government will exercise their generosity rather than their bureaucracy?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I recall a very similar question the last time we raised this, and I think I said at the time that there is flexibility and that it is important that we get it right. That is the indication that I will give.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, if nobody else wants to come in, perhaps I may press the noble Earl further to answer my original question and those of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti. If somebody is entitled to ARAP, and if they make it to the United Kingdom by some circuitous route that would otherwise be deemed illegal, does that mean that they will be eligible to remain even though, in every other circumstance, they would be deemed to have come through an illegal route and potentially be sent to Rwanda?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, that is something I am not 100% clear on. I will not say one way or the other, but I will find out and write.

Royal Navy: Drone Attacks in the Red Sea

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Monday 5th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

Your Lordships will be aware that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence will shortly update the other place on recent events in the Red Sea. I will not pre-empt that Statement. While on patrol in the Red Sea on 16 December 2023, HMS “Diamond” shot down an uncrewed aerial vehicle which was targeting merchant shipping. This is the first surface-to-air engagement by a Royal Navy vessel since 1991. The Houthis have repeatedly carried out dangerous and destabilising attacks against shipping and continue to do so. Our aim remains to de-escalate tension, but we will not hesitate to defend lives and the free flow of commerce in the face of such continued threats.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, we look forward to the Statement on the Red Sea later, and I accept the Minister’s point about not pre-empting any questions on that. In paying tribute to the crew of HMS “Diamond” and all their work over the last few weeks and months, I will ask the Minister about press reports about concerns around HMS “Diamond” and other ships not having a land-attack capability. What assessment have the Government made on what they will do about the fact that so many other ships do not have the land-attack capability to attack the bases that are launching the drones in the first place?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the congratulations and commitment of the other Benches to the service of the individual men and women. As I understand it, no two warships are exactly the same; they have different capabilities that overlap, and they complement each other and the international force with which we are operating. There is no worry about the effectiveness of their capability.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, firing surface-to-air missiles at drones is a very expensive way of attacking relatively cheap and numerous targets. There have been reports of successful UK tests of much cheaper laser-based defensive systems. Can the Minister assure the House that research into such systems will be pursued vigorously, and, if successful, will be translated into both operationally and commercially effective solutions?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank the noble and gallant Lord for his question; that is a very good point. When firing an expensive missile at a cheap drone, you are not protecting the missile; you are protecting half a billion pounds-worth of equipment behind you—that is certainly worth it. As your Lordships know, we have invested a large amount of money in drone and missile technologies, and we will incorporate that in all future designs.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister said that he does not want to comment on the Statement that is about to arrive, so I will take him in a slightly different direction. To what extent have His Majesty’s Government assessed the requirements for the Navy in the light of the drone strike on 16 December? Given the very worrying concerns raised by the report of the Defence Committee in the other place, Ready for War?, which points out the difficulties with the Type 26 delays and the power improvement project for the Type 45s, we were very fortunate that HMS “Diamond” is in the region and seaworthy. What assessment are His Majesty’s Government carrying out about making urgent reforms to the Navy to ensure that we are as protected as we need to be?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the First Sea Lord and his team are fully aware of the situation and are keeping as many ships at sea as we can at any one time. There is obviously a maintenance programme that must be adhered to and upgrading programmes that follow the latest technology. All the learnings from this latest situation in the Red Sea are being built in as rapidly as possible to all future plans.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, bombing the launch sites in Yemen makes sense, particularly if they are using Iranian weapons and rockets, if they are advised by the Iranians, and if some Iranians themselves are even involved in the launch. That is getting near the right target. Will the Minister and his colleagues bear in mind that southern Yemen is not so dominated by the Houthis? There are very many people there, for example, who are very favourable to this country and have been for years. Therefore, we should take great care that the bombing aimed at the launch sites does not descend on people who are favourable to Britain and puzzled as to why they should be bombed at all.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. The accuracy of the bombing is very precise, very limited and specifically targeted at weapons that are being, or are about to be, prepared to be used. As far as we know, that has been successful, and there has been very limited collateral damage. We completely agree that there is a large part of Yemen which is favourable towards us. In fact, we provide quite a lot of aid—although not as much as we did, as noble Lords have raised before—to support the Government of Yemen.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, being under constant air attack over a period time is, as I know from bitter experience, exhausting. What the people on HMS “Diamond” are doing is amazing, and I share the Minister’s statement that we should recognise how well they have done there. However, it is no good continually shooting down things that are being shot at you—which we are doing very successfully, and rather better than we did in the Falklands, because the systems are better; you have to go for the targets on shore. Therefore, I support the Government’s point that we must show that we cannot just sit there and take this damage. My question relates to tiredness. The people on-board will get very tired and they will need to be replaced. I am concerned about the number of ships we have to rotate through, should this go on for a long time. Does the Minister consider that we have enough ships to rotate through there, should things escalate, and to fulfil our commitments in other places in the world, such as in the Falklands, off Guyana, in the Gulf and elsewhere?

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[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord asks a good question about the total scope and scale of His Majesty’s Navy and how long this might go on for. Perhaps I might turn the question around. If we were to do nothing, and provide no support, we would weaken international security and damage the global economy, and it would suggest that any British vessel is fair game. That is just not acceptable. Ships are available as replacements and to be part of the international task force. It is precisely that; it is an international task force, and integrated, particularly with the Americans who are leading it. Between us, we will certainly have sufficient funds.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, in view of the question of the noble Lord, Lord West, do we not need further assistance from our allies in Europe? In particular, what about the French, who have a fleet? Have they been asked for help and have they offered it?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My noble friend makes a very good point. The French are extremely supportive, but of course it is each sovereign nation’s decision whether or not to become lethally involved.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, given the importance of Sea Viper—the missile that was used to shoot down these drones—to our operational capacity, what plans do we have to follow the example of the United States and prioritise work on a transportable rearming mechanism? This is a technological advance that would allow HMS “Diamond” and other vessels to reload vertical launch missiles at sea, rather than putting into port as they presently have to do.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, that is a very good point. Sea Viper is extremely effective, and there is a new version, which I think is called Sea Viper Evolution. A very substantial amount of money—about £400 million— is being spent to upgrade that. Rearming at sea is something I am not particularly knowledgeable about, so I will find out and write to the noble Lord.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, given that there have been protests on our streets supporting the Yemeni attacks, and given that the Houthi’s slogans include “Death to America”, “Death to Israel” and “Victory to Islam”, why are the Houthis not designated as a terrorist group, given that these acts are clearly acts of terrorism? Are the Government not trying to proscribe the Houthis and their backers in Iran, the IRGC, to help stop these kinds of protests, which are supporting such terrorist actions?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, this question is raised fairly regularly, and of course it is something which is under constant consideration. These are difficult decisions to take. However, in the meantime, we will continue to take action that is necessary, limited, legal—it is very important that it is legal—and proportionate in terms of self-defence and freedom of navigation, and indeed protecting lives.

RAF Aerobatic Team: Historical Allegations

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Monday 29th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of (1) the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team Non-Statutory Inquiry Report, and (2) the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team Command, Leadership and Management Report, published on 1 November 2023, relating to historical allegations of unacceptable behaviour within the RAF Aerobatic Team.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, the recommendations in both reports, the Royal Air Force aerobatic team non-statutory inquiry report and the command, leadership and management report, have all been accepted and implemented by the RAF. The findings of the investigations led to action being taken against personnel, up to and including dismissal from the service. Behaviours described by the witnesses in the reports are unacceptable and have no place in the RAF—or anywhere else for that matter.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

The culture outlined in the reports about the Red Arrows is not limited to the RAF. Last month, 60 women in the MoD Main Building complained about the hostile and toxic working environment they face. The amount paid in compensation by the MoD for bullying and harassment has doubled in the last four years. These facts will inevitably impact recruitment and retention across our Armed Forces. Can the noble Earl tell your Lordships’ House how it has come to this and what he is going to do about this seemingly pervasive toxic culture?

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[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very serious point. I have addressed it on a number of occasions from this Dispatch Box and continue to give the commitment that all the forces are absolutely determined to drive out any unacceptable sexual behaviour. There is nothing that goes on in the MoD now that does not address it. The question of zero tolerance has been brought back into focus and no fewer than four measures have been taken to address this.

[Lord Soames of Fletching (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that this shows serious failure of command and leadership at both operational and command level? Is he satisfied that this matter was dealt with at a fast enough pace? It seems that the first complaints were made a very long time before anything happened. I would be grateful if my noble friend could look into that.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My noble friend makes a couple of very good points. On the timelines, because one inquiry led into the next, it was very important that the thoroughness was followed the whole way through. The casework that fell out of the NSI, which then flowed into the chain of command investigation, and the casework and investigations required to follow that, made it appear a relatively slow process. In fact, it was not; it was going at quite a pace. There is an acceptance that there was poor leadership. Obviously, I cannot comment on individual cases, but all those responsible have been subject to appropriate action.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is participating remotely.

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, when the inquiry reports were published in November, the air chief marshal said that it was vital to challenge unacceptable and inappropriate behaviour and to

“stop, challenge, educate, and if necessary, report situations”.

What training is there for all military and MoD personnel to understand how to intervene and, in the words of the report, to stop this “bystander culture”?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

Those were some extremely good points from the noble Baroness. There is now training regarding endemic and unacceptable behaviour, which also addresses active bystanding. In this case, there is training regarding alcohol as well. A number of administrative sanctions are being put in place. Specifically in the RAF, another 55 positions on the personal support and HR side have been created to ensure that this is stopped.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, 45 years ago, I did the study into whether women should serve at sea in the Royal Navy. I said that they should, and I think it has worked very well, although a lot of people were against it at the time. When I did the study, we had 55 destroyers and frigates. We now have 16. Does the Minister feel that that is too few?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. Yes, I think it is too few; I think everybody knows that. But however many frigates and destroyers we have, the unacceptable behaviour must finish.

Ukraine

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I will now repeat an Answer to an Urgent Question given earlier today in the House of Commons:

“Since the Minister for the Armed Forces last updated the House on 28 November, the situation on the ground has remained largely unchanged. Ukraine has been fortifying its borders with Belarus with dragon’s teeth, razor wire and anti-tank ditches, and is pivoting to a more defensive posture following Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s 1 December 2023 call for rapid fortification across the front.

On 12 December, Kyivstar, Ukraine’s largest mobile network operator, suffered a cyberattack. The incident is likely one of the highest-impact disruptive cyberattacks on Ukrainian networks since the start of Russia’s full-scale invasion. The Russian air force is highly likely to have carried out the first use of the AS-24 Killjoy air-launched ballistic missile since August 2023. Killjoy has almost certainly had a mixed combat debut. Many of its launches have likely missed their intended targets, while Ukraine has also succeeded in shooting down examples of the supposedly undefeatable system.

We will continue to support priority areas for Ukraine in the coming months, including air defence and hardening critical national infrastructure sites. Our foundational supply of critical artillery ammunition continues. Most recently, on 11 December, the Defence Secretary announced that the UK will lead a new maritime capability coalition alongside Norway, delivering ships and vehicles to strengthen Ukraine’s ability to operate at sea. This represents a step change in the UK’s support for Ukraine both in defending against Russia’s illegal and unprovoked invasion and in developing Ukraine’s maritime capabilities for the future. The new coalition will deliver long-term support to Ukraine, including training, equipment and infrastructure to bolster security in the Black Sea. We could not be more clear: as the Prime Minster has said, we are in this for as much as it takes for as long as it takes.

The maritime capability coalition initiative reinforces our collective long-term commitment to Ukraine and provides a permanent mechanism through which we can support the development of Ukraine’s maritime capability. Agreed during recent meetings of the 50-nation-strong Ukraine defence contact group, it forms part of a series of capability coalitions to strengthen Ukraine’s operations in other domains, including on land and in the air. On 13 and 14 December, the Ministry of Defence, along with the Department for Business and Trade, successfully conducted the first UK trade mission to Kyiv since the invasion in 2022. The mission enabled discussions with and between UK and Ukrainian officials and industry on opportunities for long-term co-operation, and resulted in tangible agreements for industry.

The UK has committed £4.6 billion of military support to date as we continue to donate significant amounts of ammunition and matériel from our own stocks, as well as those purchased from across the globe. In addition, we have trained more than 52,000 soldiers since 2015. The UK and our allies have been clear that we will not stand by as the Kremlin persists in its disregard for the sovereignty of Ukraine and international law. This includes the recognition of Ukraine’s sovereignty over its territorial waters, which is established in accordance with international maritime law”.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Statement with respect to an Urgent Question. It is important to say at the outset that His Majesty’s Opposition continue to fully support the Government in backing Ukraine in its war with Russia. Wherever possible, we need to accelerate this support to meet the needs of Ukraine.

The noble Lord will know that President Zelensky recently warned that Ukraine needed the delivery of ammunition and vital shells to be speeded up. Can the noble Lord update us on the current situation, and on what plans the Government have to ensure that the supply of much-needed equipment and weapons to Ukraine is, in the words of President Zelensky, speeded up?

It is welcome that the Government and the Minister have repeated the announcement of a new maritime capability coalition, alongside Norway, to strengthen Ukraine’s ability to operate in the Black Sea. Is this now operating, or when does the noble Lord expect it to be fully operational? Is there any more he can say about what ships et cetera are involved with respect to that?

We are proud to support Ukraine and have always recognised that their fight is our fight, and that our resolve must not, and will not, weaken. I also welcome in the Minister’s comments the fact that the Government recognise that they are not only supporting Ukraine’s armed forces but that we need to do as much as we can to support the Ukrainian people in their fight as well. That is a very important part of the Statement and I urge him to continue with it.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, makes a number of very good points. On the final point, we have committed, including humanitarian aid, in excess of £9.5 billion—close £10 billion. I note his point about supporting the Ukrainian people and I would say that the way that the citizens of this country have opened their doors has been exemplary.

On the question of equipment support and ammunition, we are continuing to get as close as we can, as are the rest of the allies, to what President Zelensky is after. To date, we have supplied over 300,000 artillery shells. It is increasingly becoming an artillery war, certainly during the winter months—in fact, it is becoming a sort of manufacturing war, about who can manufacture the weapons fastest. Of those 300,000 shells, some 50,000 have been produced since July 2023. We have supplied 31 armoured vehicles, 14 mine ploughs to go on the front of the T-62s, 6 million rounds of small arms ammunition and, of course, spares for the AS-90 artillery guns. We are absolutely committed to maintaining that level of support and ensuring that Ukraine has the weaponry that it needs to continue to fight against the Russian aggressors.

What is interesting about the Black Sea is that everybody is trying to ensure that it does not become a sort of Russian lake. Through some extremely clever and intelligent use of small amphibious weapons, Ukraine has been successful in pushing the Russians further eastwards. It is that level of support and training that this new coalition is particularly enthusiastic to support.

At the same time, from a trade perspective, the opening of the maritime corridor across the Black Sea has started to have a fairly significant effect on the ability of Ukraine to earn foreign currency through its exports, particularly of grain. While it maintained overland routes and used the Danube ports, it is the maritime corridor across the Black Sea which really provides the greatest opportunity. In recent months, I think there were about 200 ships in total that got out for trade, including 5 million tonnes of grain. We are getting there; it is incumbent upon us all. The maritime coalition opened only on Monday. We have already got 12 countries involved, with three more expressing interest. It is obviously going to become very productive.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I am aware that this is a UQ rather than a Statement, so I will not detain the House too long, to allow others to get in. This is obviously a welcome response to an Urgent Question. Maritime co-operation, particularly bilateral relations with our Norwegian colleagues, is hugely important, and that is very welcome. This morning, a Ukrainian general suggested that there was not sufficient military aid going into Ukraine. President Zelensky has just given a press conference and said that Ukraine is not losing. What are His Majesty’s Government—both the Secretary of State for Defence and the Foreign Secretary—doing to ensure that our partners in NATO, whether the United States or Hungary, are really going to give Ukraine the sort of support that the United Kingdom is still giving so clearly?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Baroness is quite right to raise this issue. We were the first to support Ukraine in its endeavour and we continue to encourage everybody to come along. The Ukraine Defense Contact Group is very important, and we continue to push for support wherever it is possible with all our allies.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I declare again my interest as a serving member of the UK Armed Forces. I commend the Government on their continued support, and indeed His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition for theirs, and for being convenor to ensure that the international community continues to support Ukraine. However, I have always had a concern. One day, this war will end, but what comes next? I often worry that we have not learned the lessons of the past, from the war in Iraq when we did not plan for what comes next. It has now been over a year since there has been an assessment as to what the reconstruction of Ukraine will cost. Unless we know that on an ongoing basis, it is very hard to bring countries together to commit to the reconstruction of Ukraine. I simply ask my noble friend to commit to put in the Library the latest assessment of the cost of reconstruction.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I fully commit to doing that.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his repeating the Answer and follow on. Can he say a little more about the maritime capability of Ukraine? One of the aims of this maritime alliance or coalition is to reinforce the maritime capacity of Ukraine. It would be very helpful to know what exactly that maritime capability is.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My noble friend raises a particularly topical subject. There are obviously areas I cannot go into, but the new coalition will deliver long- term support to Ukraine, including training, equipment and infrastructure, to bolster security throughout the Black Sea.

LGBT Veterans Independent Review

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, when the report from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, was first published, we had the opportunity in your Lordships’ House to debate it at some length. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has already touched on some of the issues that were discussed then. For many of us who are not from a service background, the issues that went on in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces, as they were then, were absolutely shocking, just as they were for the people who served. It is noticeable that, in his Statement in the other place, Dr Andrew Murrison made the point that when he became a reservist, he was asked, “Are you gay?” As he said, even in 1980 that seemed out of place. And that was because it was out of place.

It is important that we look again at the report by the noble and learned Lord and remind ourselves of the injustices that were done, while at the same time paying tribute to the Government for taking on board almost all of the recommendations. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked, “Is it all of them?” My understanding is that one or two of them will be taken on in a slightly different way—but the acceptance of this report is hugely welcome.

There are some questions we might all need to understand in a little more detail. They are, in particular, how do those people who were affected by the ban know where to access the ways of getting restoration? In particular, if somebody was sacked, that is straight- forward, but if somebody felt the need to give up their commission early because they felt that their sexuality was putting them in extreme difficulties within the Armed Forces, what information will be available to them? How far will His Majesty’s Government be making clear to the wider service community and to veterans’ communities that people can come forward, and explaining how they can do so?

When we talked about the report when it was initially published, the issue was in part about next of kin and those who had service personnel who had died—perhaps who had committed suicide. Yesterday’s government Statement is very welcome in saying that it will be a little more open in terms of who counts as next of kin, recognising the very nature of relationships that might be important to those who are veterans, or who were veterans but are no longer alive. Again, how will those people be informed about ways of ensuring that their loved ones are able to have their service records reinstated? The commitment in itself is good, but we need to ensure that the reality works for both LGBT veterans and their next of kin, and also for those other people who were not actually LGBT service personnel but who, for some reason, were thought to be. This is another group of people who were victimised not because of their sexuality but because of their perceived sexuality—which, again, suggests that there is, or was, a real issue within the Armed Forces about inclusion and diversity.

Picking up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, about the fact that there are still issues around gender within His Majesty’s Armed Forces—are there other issues we should be picking up on and thinking about, to make sure that, going forward, whether it is about gender or sexuality, people are not victimised for who they are?

This report and the Government’s response are very welcome, but we need to ensure that the inclusivity is there for the service family of today as well.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, it is gratifying to see that everybody is on the same page in this. The treatment of LGBT serving personnel between 1967 and 2000 was wholly unacceptable, and I think everybody accepts that. But it does not reflect the situation today—far from it. Today, the MoD works hard to ensure that all our policies are inclusive in every respect. His Majesty’s Government, with the establishment of the report of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and the acceptance of all 49 recommendations, have made a clear statement of that position. In fact, 24 of the 49 recommendations have already been implemented, including all 14 restorative measures. That is an indication of how seriously the Ministry of Defence takes the wrongs of the past.

The Government, and I am sure all of us here, are extremely grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and his team for their thoroughness and commitment in completing such an important report and paving the way to right such an historic wrong to such a deserving section of our Armed Forces. The Government are also deeply indebted to those veterans who shared their testimonies and are committed to ensuring that such bravery is the catalyst for all future change. There is no doubt, in reading the more recent policies put out by Ministers here and in the devolved nations, that there is a clear intent to ensure that this is absolutely seen through and that zero tolerance is absolutely zero tolerance. When it comes down it, there can be no flexibility on this. It is absolutely zero tolerance.

On the question that the noble Lord raised specifically, it has taken a long time to get to this point. That bears testament to the complications in some of the issues that the information-gatherers have faced. As a start, there is not an accurate set of records about why people left the Armed Forces. That is one of the reasons, which we will come on to. I do not know if anybody has had an opportunity to take a look at it, but the “LGBT veterans: support and next steps” webpage is extremely thorough and informative. It attempts to seek out exactly what the issues were, who was treated badly and how badly—different grades of dreadful behaviour. We will do all that we can to ensure that people engage with that website to get the information that allows us to move forward and start talking about the financial arrangement.

The recommendation for the financial award scheme has been completely accepted. We are working at pace with experts across government to develop an appropriate scheme. There have been other schemes like this elsewhere in the world. The Canadian scheme is a good model. The £50 million cap that came out from the Etherton report is to some extent based on the experience that the Canadian Government had in approaching this. It would seem to be, at this stage, an appropriate sum of money. It is a meaningful sum of money. I am afraid that nobody knows how many people have been involved in and affected by this, but as a statement of intent it is a proper sum of money that should go to deal with the issue.

Although we are at the early stages, the Government are working at pace. The question about the number of claimants and the likely size of the award will be gone into only after the front door to the website is open and people can apply. There is no intention of closing the door. It will remain open. The expectation is that we should start to see some payments from the financial award scheme towards the end of next year. I know that it has taken a long time, but at least progress is being made.

Perhaps I should say at this point that this is not compensation and does not exclude people applying for compensation. This is an award scheme to recognise the wrongs of the past. If individuals or groups of individuals want to go for compensation through our legal system, it is entirely open to them to do that.

The other question that the noble Lord raised was about pensions. I have read some misinformation about accrued pension rights being negated. That is absolutely not the case. Accrued pension rights are protected under law, but I am afraid that the “lost” pension rights, once people had left the forces, cannot be dealt with because people may have gone to other businesses and accrued other pensions in other directions. It is not something that we can get involved in.

The noble Baroness raised the extremely important question of next of kin. Again, the hope and expectation is that this will come out in the amount of people who apply through “LGBT veterans: support and next steps”. This should be an emerging picture. Hopefully, individuals and organisations will apply fairly quickly.

I think that I have answered all the specific questions raised so far. If I have not, I am sure that noble Lords will let me know.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the reply from the Minister. I reflect that I have been working on this issue for 32 years, since I first gave evidence to the Select Committee in 1991, and working more recently, over the last seven years, with my noble friend Lord Lexden. It is clear that we need a future debate on implementation and I have a couple of questions that I will canter through.

It is an excellent report by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, who it is good to see is in his place. It should be recorded that it was conditional on the report that an award cap be recommended. I am pleased to hear, and I hope that the Minister will again guarantee, that the cap can, if the Government so decide, be increased and that the report is in no way a veto on any increase.

Recommendation 26 deals with the amending of relevant records of those who were subjected to administrative discharge. The Government have adopted the approach suggested. However, there is a problem. The Government’s guidance states that this process will be available to veterans who were administratively discharged during the ban, but it is highly likely that applications will be received prior to 1967. Does the Minister agree that it is important that these people are not excluded from the scope of this measure of redress? Indeed, the draft legislation set out in Annexe 10 of the excellent report by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, offers a legislative way forward. Finally, therefore, can the Government pledge that LGBT people discharged from the Armed Forces before 1967 solely on the grounds of sexual orientation and gender identity will have their records amended if they meet the criteria?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his important contribution. On the question of a cap, as I said, until we know the full picture, it is difficult to say whether the cap will be sufficient, but there has to be a level of understanding that, if it is necessary, there must be flexibility within it. On the question of recommendation 26, I think it best if I write to the noble Lord on the detail. Thirdly, on the pre-1967 discharges, there was no difference between the military law and the civil law at that point, so I am not absolutely certain where we stand on that. My suspicion is that it was the law of the nation at that time and that there is not much to go on, but I may well be wrong.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I have to remind the House again of my interest as a serving member of the Armed Forces. Indeed, I was just reflecting that, while this may all seem a long time ago, I had in fact served in the Army for some 12 years before the ban on homosexuals serving in the Army was lifted. I congratulate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, on his excellent review and, indeed, the Government on accepting the spirit, we could say, of all 49 recommendations.

In response to the frustration of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, about how long this has taken, I could not agree more. Indeed, I am probably partly to blame as a former Minister for Veterans, when this was across my desk on a regular basis. The frustration in trying to push this along was genuine. I am delighted that, finally, it has been done.

I have one specific question for my noble friend, and I hope it is an easy one. Of the 49 recommendations, one is ongoing. Recommendation 11 is the commitment to launch an application process for restorative measures and maintain it for 24 months, which is clearly an excellent recommendation. My only concern is that I understand that, during the process, as is often the way in the MoD, some historic records were lost. If, at the end of that 24-month process, there are any concerns that individuals have not had the opportunity to find their records or apply, will there be a review of that deadline and will it be extended if necessary?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the House that if, at the end of 24 months, we do not feel we have got to the bottom of this, the deadline will be extended.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a patron of Opening Doors. It is in that capacity that I have met, over the last 25 years, many of the individuals we are talking about and listened to their stories. We are all indebted to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for bringing those stories to the attention of the nation.

I have three brief questions. First, there were in the forces senior officers who were compassionate and understood the devastation that would befall anyone who was discharged for this reason. Therefore, in acts of kindness and humanity, they sometimes trumped up other charges and made those the reasons for the discharge. If individuals come forward with evidence that they should be eligible to be part of this scheme, but technically they are not, will their cases be given due consideration?

Secondly, I raise a question that I raised with the noble Earl’s predecessor, the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, about HIV. The report deals with health in its wider sense, particularly mental health, but the issue of HIV is buried deep within it. There is an ongoing issue concerning recruitment of and support for individuals with HIV in the forces. Would the Minister be willing to meet with me and other members of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on HIV and AIDS to discuss that matter further?

Finally, this report has been very well received; it is a source of immense gratification and support to the people in this position, but the hurt runs deep and lasts. Therefore, will the Minister consider what we can do to ensure that the organisations involved in providing that ongoing support, which they have given for 25 years, continue to be in a position to do so? Some of them are having financial issues at the moment.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. On that of personal issues and compassionate leaders, that is completely accepted. There is opportunity within the “LGBT veterans: support and next steps” webpage—what we refer to as the open door—to produce that level of information to ensure that nobody is left out. It is very important that nobody feels that they do not have the opportunity to put their case and have it heard.

On the question of meeting the HIV group, I would be more than delighted to do that. Thirdly, we will certainly look at which organisations have been particularly supportive. Nobody wants these well-meaning charitable organisations to suffer unnecessarily. I have noticed that quite a lot of charities, for one reason or another, have merged and gathered together in the last few years to create a slightly more forceful and valuable contribution. That is often the way. If we can help in steering groups together, that may be a very good solution and make certain that the intention is still kept in mind.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, it is good that the Commons Statement has been repeated here; less good that it has taken nearly a week to reach us and that we deal with it so close to the Recess. This underlines the need for a full debate in this House on the momentous report from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and the Government’s response to it. I understand that there is to be a debate in the Commons. Can we please have a commitment from the Government that there will be a debate here?

On the question of pensions, there really must be no resiling from the Government’s commitments and duties in this area. The issues are of such immense importance to LGBT veterans, and I was not altogether reassured by my noble friend’s comments earlier on pensions. I urge him to ensure that everything that can be done is done to bring justice to LGBT veterans in respect of pensions.

The Government state that they accept “the intent” behind all the recommendations in the report. That is not an entirely helpful statement: either recommendations are accepted wholly or in part, or they are not accepted. Worry is likely to arise among LGBT veterans about the apparent equivocation in that statement.

I draw attention to Recommendation 25 in the report from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. This relates to Part 12 of the Police, Crime and Sentencing Act 2022. My noble friend Lord Cashman and I, along with our good friend and adviser in academic life, Professor Paul Johnson, have a deep interest in its provisions, having campaigned for them, as my noble friend Lord Cashman said, over many years. Through these provisions, service personnel can secure pardons for past disciplinary offences which were deeply unjust at the time and have now been swept away. Can my noble friend assure the House that the MoD will promote the scheme with vigour and encourage LGBT veterans living with unjust convictions to apply for pardons through it? As things stand, separate applications have to be made through the Home Office, which will prove confusing for LGBT veterans. Will the MoD stop this happening by ensuring that application forms are readily available to them?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that very valuable contribution, and I agree that rather a long time has elapsed between the Commons Statement and me standing here. I will undertake to talk to the Whips about getting a full debate. If we are going to have one in the Commons, then we should certainly have one here.

On pensions, I did not mean to be less than fully committed to ensuring that we do all we can to make sure that pension rights are protected and that pensions accrued are properly taken care of under the law. The point I was trying to make is that one can accrue only one pension at time, and if individuals have accrued further pensions after leaving Her Majesty’s Forces—as they then were—one needs to take that into account.

On the use of the word “intent”, I think it is more to do with interpretation than intent, in that, while the recommendations from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, are incredibly thorough and very well thought through, one or two individual practical things may need to be got absolutely right. All the recommendations are accepted and, as I think I said earlier, more than half have been implemented, including all 14 of the restorative measures.

On the final point from my noble friend, the MoD will definitely promote with vigour and at every opportunity—and it is the third or fourth time I have mentioned it—the “LGBT veterans: support and next steps” front door to the website, where one can read through in great detail the breadth of opportunity to make valid points. That is completely accepted, and the point about pardons is equally well made.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister questioned why I asked that the process be widened to those discharged before 1967. To clarify, as the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, intimated, we widened and extended the pardons and disregards before 1967 and then widened this to include the armed services. Therefore, legislatively, we have a way to consider those discharged before 1967.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I will certainly take that away and look at it properly.

Global Combat Air Programme Treaty

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, starting where the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, left off, I think the noble Earl, Lord Minto, and I have the dubious distinction of being the last two people standing this afternoon, because we have the next two items of business as well. I am not quite ready to wish everyone happy recess, happy Christmas, happy holidays or anything else, and I am afraid I am going to ask the noble Earl a few more questions. In many ways, they are in a similar vein to those of the noble Baroness, except that I cannot take credit for any activities in the other place, never having served there.

From these Benches we welcome this treaty and the commitment, which is very clear, to the Global Combat Air Programme. I would be interested to hear, in addition to the answers that the Minister will give to the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, a few more specifics about what this programme is going to mean in practice for the United Kingdom and for our wider relations with NATO and our other security partners. Clearly, one of the other partners in this trilateral arrangement is Italy. Japan is obviously an ally, and one with which we have strong bilateral relations, but how will this programme relate to our commitments within NATO? Is it enabling the United Kingdom and Italy to play a greater role, strengthening our positioning in NATO? The original Statement in the other place seemed to suggest that this is really about demonstrating our commitment not just to the Indo-Pacific but to the Euro-Atlantic area. I should like to hear a little more about the strategic thinking behind this.

Like the noble Baroness, I want to press the Minister a little more on the financial arrangements. We are in an unprecedented situation, with the present conflicts in Ukraine and in Israel and Gaza, and with further problems in the straits in the Red Sea—that is associated with the situation in Israel and Gaza but could potentially become even more difficult for our trading relations, and beyond that there are further ramifications for our naval commitments. What assessment have His Majesty’s Government made about this programme, alongside the carrier strike group and other commitments that we need to be thinking about?

I am sure the Minister’s briefing says something about the integrated review refresh saying X, Y and Z, but we need to move beyond that. The situation globally, and the commitments that His Majesty’s Government are rightly making, mean that many of the financial questions that might have been addressed a year or 18 months ago will not necessarily be adequate now. This is a programme looking forward, as the Statement says, not just for the next few years but for decades ahead, like AUKUS. Some sense of the long-term planning, relations with our wider allies and questions about interoperability are the key issues.

Furthermore, what work is being done with the defence industrial base to ensure that the contracts can be let, as far as possible, to companies that will give jobs in this country and to our partners in the European supply chain?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I welcome the cross-House support, because this is a very important treaty and a meaningful allied programme. The launching of the Global Combat Air Programme in December 2022, along with Italy and Japan, our partners in this key initiative, was a significant moment in the future development of the new generation of military combat aircraft. In signing the GCAP treaty last week in Tokyo, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence proved that this programme is proceeding at pace, with a commensurate level of commitment that anticipates treaty ratification in early 2024, concept and assessment phase complete by 2025, and Tempest in service and operational by 2035.

This treaty is excellent news for the UK and our partners. It establishes the legal framework that allows contracts to be awarded, GIGO, and the joint business construct that is the government industrial delivery organisation. GIGO will be co-located here in the UK, alongside the joint business construct. Importantly, as a partnership of equals, the first CEO of GCAP will be from Japan and the first CEO of the joint business construct will be from Italy. On the noble Baroness’s point about the sharing out of the work programme, I think it is clear that the intention is that it should be joint, in so far as it is possible. Having said that, the choice of locating the GIGO and the joint business contract here in the UK is recognition of our ability within this area. Of course, international connectivity and all sorts of other things make the UK a sensible place to do this.

I will address some of the issues specifically. The noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, is right: so far, we have spent about £2 billion on this programme and industry has spent about £600 million. From the UK’s perspective, the expenditure is expected to be between £10 billion and £15 billion, running over the next 10 years. Remember, this is equal shares here.

The F35B is within the budget figures that we have been talking about, which noble Lords will recall were £228 billion over the next 10 years, of which only 25% is committed so far. There is still huge flexibility within the budget to ensure that the important priorities for this country are properly addressed at the appropriate time. It is too early to say exactly what percentage of the workforce will be in the UK, but the intention is that it should be equally shared between the three partners. We will have to see. It is a long time into the future, so who can tell?

On the question of whether other allies are to be involved, the base model programme, the platform, will be very flexible, so there is an absolute intention to involve other allies, whether they be NATO or not, and more customisation can be built into the programme as and when appropriate. The impact on NATO is an extremely good point. This is to do with the global situation that we face. As we all know, we are in an unstable place at the moment. There are issues popping up everywhere, Houthis attacking one of our warships and our warships downing a Houthi missile being the latest examples. These are uncomfortable times, and it is important that we address both the Far East and our responsibilities under NATO. There is no issue in this respect.

On the question of the financial arrangements and the cost of Ukraine, Israel and these latest commitments, Ukraine, as the House will know, is dealt with through a separate budget. Both the Prime Minister and the Defence Secretary have given an absolute commitment that we will carry on for as long as it takes. Our commitment is unwavering, and our support will be there. The situation in Israel and Gaza is a very moveable feast but we have given full support and are right there, ready to provide supportive aid whenever that is necessary. The movement of ships into the Red Sea and the Gulf is to act as a deterrent to any escalation in that area and to ensure that our forces are protected.

I think that I have answered the question on the global commitments. The last point outstanding was about the industrial base in the UK. There is a Team Tempest, which involves BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, Leonardo UK and MBDA UK, but there are over 1,000 companies across the three countries involved, including academia and SMEs. We have huge strength in this country on digital design and additive manufacturing, both of which reduce lead times and costs. We can hope and aspire to this being an extremely successful and very important programme as we progress it, for UK defence and industrial strength in this country.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as a serving member of the Armed Forces and as the Prime Minister’s defence and security advocate and add my congratulations to the Government on the signing of this very important treaty, hot on the heels of AUKUS. These together underline the United Kingdom as a partner of choice in the international defence community.

I have two questions for my noble friend, built on the latter part of his previous answer. First, the key cornerstone members of the treaty are, obviously, the UK, Italy and Japan, but is the door now closed for other founder members of this treaty? I cannot help but feel that with potential competition in Europe, the more founder members that we buy in from the start, the greater the security of this programme and decreasing costs for the UK going forward.

My second point concerns the industrial base. In the past, successive Governments have allowed various parts of our industrial base to atrophy. This is in part because, all too often, we have procured the exquisite in the United Kingdom, building, for example, ships such as the Type 45—undoubtedly the best in the world but simply unaffordable for other nations. The key to ensuring that the industrial base continues for many years to come is, as the Minister has hinted, ensuring that this platform is exportable. Sometimes, exportable variants do not have the same kit that we may want for ourselves, but the whole point is that we need open architecture so that variants of this platform can be exported, thereby ensuring the longevity of both the platform and the UK industrial base.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My noble friend makes some good points. My understanding is that, as the treaty is now signed, the founder members are in effect locked in—although there is, I believe, a bit of flexibility. There is no question that this platform is being built with the view that it will be of interest to allies across the globe. As I am sure we all know, 85% of defence exports are combat aircraft, so it is extremely important that this is a successful and flexible platform that appeals to others. There may be a worry about us trying to be all things to all men. I do not believe that that is the case; I believe that the intention of the three equal partners is to ensure that the platform is definitely fit for purpose and will definitely be of interest to allied countries.

My noble friend made a good and salient point about the industrial base in the UK. I imagine that there will be stiff competition in deciding where the GIGO will be located because it will engender a lot of inward investment; some 1,000 people in various organisations have already been taken on to work on it. Obviously, a lot of new technology is involved, rather than older technology. Again, it is about this country having been chosen for the headquarters, which suggests a certain level of commitment to our industrial strength.

Former Afghan Special Forces: Deportation

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, 200 special forces are unable to leave Pakistan or are under threat of being returned there. They fought alongside our troops. Why have we let them down, and why are they facing deportation back to face the Taliban? Why can they not come to this country under the safe passage they were promised?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

His Majesty’s Government are fully aware of their responsibilities under both the ARAP and the ACRS. They are implementing both schemes to the agreed guidelines at pace, in Afghanistan, Pakistan and here in the UK.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, the UK has a responsibility to relocate these soldiers, otherwise it is likely that they will either die or spend their lives in prison. Will the Minister make it possible for these soldiers to pursue an expedited application process through either the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme or the Afghan relocations and assistance policy, so that they can reside safely in the UK?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

CF333 and ATF444, known as the Triples, were Afghan-led task forces set up to counter drug trafficking and organised crime, and they reported to the Ministry of Interior Affairs. They are therefore a component of the Afghan national security forces and are not automatically in scope for relocation.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, answers to questions on this issue tend to be full of bureaucratic detail and process. This hardly seems appropriate for people who are facing rapid expulsion from Pakistan and almost equally rapid assassination by the Taliban. Why will the Government not set up a mechanism to pursue this issue proactively and urgently, in order to sort it out? If the Minister needs any advice, perhaps he could turn to the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton, who has a lot of experience in this area and could point him in the right direction.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I do not disagree with quite a lot of what the noble and gallant Lord said. However, perhaps I may just take a moment to advise noble Lords of the scale of the challenge. There have been 142,000 applications under the ARAP scheme, 95,000 of which are unique—in other words, there are a certain number of repetitions. From April 2023 until the end of August 2023, the bureaucracy coped with 75,000 of those applications. To date, we have settled nearly 14,000 Afghans in this country, and we are hoping to settle another 2,800 by the end of December. There are 2,500 people with approval currently in Pakistan, with whom we have very good relations, and they all have the document which allows them to leave. In fact, 500 were approved last week. While I am not saying that we are on top of it, we are very close to getting there.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

I thank my noble and gallant friend Lord Stirrup for probably setting me up to fail. I had the privilege of working with some of these Triples during my own service in Afghanistan and was very involved during my time as Minister for the Armed Forces. I accept that this is not straightforward, but I must add my voice to those saying that we owe an absolute duty to these people and we must sort this out. That said, there are many applications, and a lot of false ones. From our perspective, the biggest challenge seems to be our lack of paperwork and documentation, which is causing the delay. While I encourage my noble friend, as others have done, to do everything he can to support these armed forces personnel, please can we learn the lesson from this episode and ensure that we keep the right documentation in future?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

In the interests of brevity, I quite agree.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House why it is no longer possible to provide a breakdown of the jobs of people applying for relocation under ARAP? It is impossible for us now to tell what the success or failure rate is among members of the Triples, or those who do any other job. After all, for the past 10 years or so and until recently, I have been able to find out exactly how many Afghan interpreters have been relocated. Why is the data not now collected on how many applicants are soldiers, interpreters or anything else?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a very good point. The accuracy of the data held on large numbers of people requires double- checking and checking again. At the heart of approval under ARAP is the accuracy of exactly what these individuals did.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, in responding to a question about specific individuals in the other place, the Armed Forces Minister told the House that His Majesty’s Government

“do not have the employment records of the Afghan special forces”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/12/23; col. 631.]

Today, I was informed by a very reliable source that, until at least August 2021, our embassy in Kabul held nominal records for members of CF333 and ATF444, for the purposes of their “top-up pay”. They were in our employment and, until at least August 2021, His Majesty’s Government held their employment records. Surely, they still exist?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am not certain that the word “pay” is accurate. I think expense recompense is more appropriate, which is different: you gift something and get something back. If the records are there, we will follow them down. I was not aware that they were held.

[Baroness D'Souza (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister inform the House whether HMG are in direct contact with the Pakistan Government and authorities specifically on this issue, now?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the House that His Majesty’s Government are in direct contact with the Pakistan Government at the very highest level. They are being extremely co-operative about not returning to Afghanistan people who may be at threat as a result of the recent conflict.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned that it is important to follow guidelines to make sure that applicants fall within them. If there are applicants who do not fall within the guidelines but whose lives are clearly in danger, will the Government make exceptions for them?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, ARAP has got to the stage where things are considered case by case. There is opportunity to be flexible within that.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, is it not important—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Lord Bishop of Durham]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a trustee of Reset, as laid out in the register. The British population have a lot of sympathy with these Afghans. What work has been done to learn the lessons from Ukraine and see what levels of community sponsorship might be offered to such Afghans who qualify under these schemes, and to welcome them here? I recognise that this is a Home Office question, so I understand if the Minister needs to write.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate makes a very good point. Since Pakistan changed its method of treatment of its illegal immigrants, we have managed to bring several hundred people back directly from Pakistan. In fact, another 181 are arriving today or tomorrow. They will go into transitional accommodation before they get into their proper accommodation, as was the case before 17 October. We are certainly on the right route with this.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I do not recall the part of the Companion that says that bishops have pre-emptive rights, but never mind. As well as being brief, answers should actually answer the questions put. May I now give the Minister the opportunity to answer the question put by my noble friend Lord Coaker?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, we absolutely respect that these individuals were brave, fought alongside us and gave support when necessary. Guidelines obviously need to be adhered to, because we are not in a position to offer resettlement to every member of the Afghan national forces. There must be limits, and the way in for these particular fighters and their support staff is through ARAP.

Ministry of Defence: Equipment Plan

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Thursday 7th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the National Audit Office’s value for money analysis of the Ministry of Defence’s Equipment Plan 2023 to 2033, published on 4 December.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, the National Audit Office’s report on the equipment plan states that it does not consider the value for money of the MoD’s equipment expenditure or of the specific projects mentioned; nor does it comment on the policy choices that the department makes to develop a plan that meets its future needs. While the National Audit Office report recognises the significant impact that global headwinds and high inflation have had on UK defence, it does not and could not accurately reflect the current or future state of the Armed Forces equipment plan, given that it pre-dates the publication of the defence Command Paper refresh.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, the NAO report is deeply disturbing at a time when we have war in Europe, conflict in the Middle East and growing threats globally. As we have just heard from the Minister, the MoD just dismisses it as a dated snapshot that does not reflect reality. The NAO says that the plan is unaffordable and that forecast costs exceed the available budget by £16.9 billion. It says that the MoD estimates that the funding gap could range between £7.6 billion and £29.8 billion. How is that just a dated snapshot?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the Ministry of Defence certainly does not consider the report in such a way. Where the Ministry of Defence is coming from is that our Armed Forces are operating in an increasingly contested and dangerous world, and we are working hard to deliver what our servicepeople need to keep the United Kingdom safe. We are in a period of great change, which is why the equipment plan budget has increased to £288.6 billion over the next decade. It is about the next decade—10 years forward.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, one of the most interesting forecasts in the NAO report is not a figure but a word: “Unknown”. It is the forecast of the equipment plan cost if it were to reflect all the capabilities outlined in the 2023 integrated review and defence Command Paper refresh. The gap between resource and ambition is serious and leaves us exposed in an increasingly dangerous world. When are the Government going to get a grip on it?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I do not buy that the plan is unfundable and unworkable. There is significant flexibility within the figures and large contingencies to allow the flexibility of the correct platforms to be developed over the period of time to meet the defence needs for the state.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that it is wrong to look at the defence equipment plan as some kind of rigid, unchangeable proposition, for the very reason he has just indicated? We have to have headroom, which is necessary to allow for flexibility, pursuant to the defence Command Paper refresh, but also because of emerging technologies and our constant journey with artificial intelligence. It is important for everyone to remember that inherent flexibility is actually a strength.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great honour to answer a question from my predecessor. She is absolutely right: we are looking at a 10-year timeframe and only 25% of expenditure is committed. We have a contingency budget in there of more than £4 billion.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, the equipment plan bandies around some interesting figures: the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, mentioned £16.9 billion, while I picked up £7.6 billion and £29.8 billion—obviously, precision is our watchword. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, picked up the very alarming word “Unknown” for the costs and, where they are known, they are deemed to be “unaffordable”. This is not a good projection. Can the Minister project a rather more accurate estimate of the financial cost? In particular, how does the MoD intend to meet the acute skills shortage gap? Without the skills, our brave military personnel are going to be lost.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a good point. In fact, there is considerable investment in skills—particularly in the areas of nuclear and shipbuilding—within these figures, all of which are costed. She is absolutely right that the skills gap that the industry is facing is entirely being funded and down to government.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from the most important question arising from this report, raised by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, I wish to make a couple of points to the Minister and ask him a question. First, this report, like all NAO reports, was agreed by the department.

Secondly, the report specifically says that the equipment plan

“does not reflect all the cost pressures to develop new and support existing capabilities set out in the 2021 Integrated Review”,

which was updated in March this year. I recollect that the then Secretary of State for Defence, Ben Wallace, said that the extra £5 billion was welcome but that £11 billion was needed.

Thirdly, the report highlights the fact that the individual services have differing approaches to preparing the forecast in the plan. The Navy and the Royal Air Force include predicted costs for the capabilities that the Government expect from them while the Army includes only what it can afford. These issues need immediate attention, do they not? They should be attended to immediately.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with much of what the noble Lord has said. One of the key points about the NAO report is that it does not reflect the aspiration to increase defence spending to 2.5% of GDP when economic and fiscal conditions allow. If one puts that back in, it obviously completely changes the finances.

On the question of consistency, I am in entire agreement. I am very new in this role. I have looked at budgets for the last 40 years and I have never seen a budget that resembles anything like this one, and that is not just the absolute figures. The way in which it is constructed means that it is very difficult to get to exactly the way in which the money moves around. That is something that I commit to the House that I will learn and then lose not much more sleep over.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that none of the cost of the equipment provided to the Government of Ukraine has been or will be met from the defence budget, and that that will include any restocking of war stocks that have been gifted to Ukraine?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble and gallant Lord for that question. I can confirm that all equipment gifted to Ukraine is well without these figures. Your Lordships will know that, as well as the £5 billion that was granted by the Chancellor, an additional nearly £0.5 billion was given to restock the stockpiles that are required.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, I wish the Minister all the best in his new appointment. Further to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, the NAO report refers to supply line risks and constraints caused by skills gaps, plus the shortage of key components. Much of that is the consequence of the war in Ukraine. We must continue the support for that war but, further to the noble Baroness’s question, what more can the Minister and the department do to address the skills gap by working with key contractors and suppliers, such as BAE?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My noble friend makes two very good points. One is about the extremely complicated supply chain that the defence industry has to follow and the extreme pressures that inflationary costs bring to bear on that. It is not just headline inflation; the inflationary costs go from raw materials right through to the completed product. It is extraordinary and very varied. The question of the skills gap is at the heart of one of my right honourable friend’s tasks in the other place in ensuring that British industry, particularly organisations such as BAE Systems, is sufficiently available to get the skills.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the report is extremely worrying. The Government seem to have the ability to talk as if these things are not crucial. There is no doubt that we need more money spent on defence. I understand that we are looking at 2.5% when the situation allows. Yes, we are very short of money, but sometimes, if things are so dangerous and worrying, you have to adjust your priorities.

We seem to be lulling ourselves into a false sense of security. If the Government really think that our military is being sufficiently funded and all things are rosy, I am very worried. If that is just what they are saying to put a good face on it here, fine, but I have a horrible feeling that they believe things really are rosy. I ask the Minister to look at the real impact of this NAO report, because there is no doubt that things we have been promised will not come.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that the Government take the report extremely seriously, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. An enormous amount of work is going on in the department to look at the changing defence requirement for the next 10 years and the impact that it is likely to have on the cost implications. Everybody is fully aware that the Government wish to get to 2.5% as a minimum and I am sure that, when fiscal conditions allow, that will be delivered.

Middle East: UK Military Deployments

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by wishing the noble Earl, Lord Minto, well in his important position; we all wish him well on that.

We welcomed last week’s pause in fighting. Efforts continue to get much-needed aid into Gaza. We supported and welcomed the initial deployment of UK forces on 13 October; we recognise the important role that the UK plays in strengthening regional stability in the Middle East. We learned earlier this week that unarmed military surveillance will begin support for hostage rescue. How will the Government ensure that these UK surveillance flights support hostage rescue and not any military operation? In terms of UK military personnel and assets deployed to the region, what steps are we taking to ensure that they can fulfil their designated role and also be adequately protected?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his welcome. His Majesty’s Government’s objectives in the short term are: first, to secure the release of the British hostages, which my right honourable friend in the other place said he

“will move heaven and earth”—[Official Report, Commons, 5/12/23; col. 211.]

to do; secondly, to show solidarity with Israel in defending itself against the terrorist organisation Hamas; and, thirdly, to call for humanitarian pauses exclusively to deliver emergency aid. Those are the three primary things.

The surveillance flights that have started are manned and unarmed. They are there specifically to assist in locating, identifying and removing hostages, particularly British ones. On the question of ensuring that the assets being deployed are protective, clearly, force protection is absolutely paramount in any form of military operation but, beyond that, we cannot go into any specific depth for clearly understood reasons.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I think I welcomed the Minister to his place when he opened the King’s Speech debate, but I welcome him again. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about the protection of our forces but my question is about the sustainability of deployment. It is absolutely right that we have sent a Royal Navy task force and that HMS “Diamond” is on its way—it is good to see that it is currently seaworthy —but what assessment have His Majesty’s Government made about the length of potential deployments, given that forces are already quite constrained? Do we have adequate resources and troop mobilisation, and have we thought about the question of morale?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very good point: morale is obviously paramount. Part of ensuring the morale of His Majesty’s forces is ensuring that there are sufficient forces not only to fulfil the task but to provide force protection. In this case, it is not as though any forces have been taken away from any other theatre; the noble Baroness is absolutely right that the ships that have been dispatched have come from another location. HMS “Lancaster” is already in the Gulf; HMS “Diamond” is on the way to join it; HMS “Duncan” is already operating as part of a NATO maritime task group in the Mediterranean; and the RFA “Lyme Bay” and RFA “Argus” are standing off, ready to assist wherever possible. Certainly, there are sufficient forces, and nothing has been withdrawn from anywhere else.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness because I can perhaps help her with an answer. I declare my interest as director reserves in the British Army. HMS “Lancaster”, which I had the privilege to visit two weeks ago in Bahrain, is permanently deployed to the Gulf. It is a new model, whereby we deploy the ship for three years and rotate the crew, meaning that she can be on station for a prolonged period of time, while HMS “Diamond” is simply surged. However, that puts considerable strain on the crew because you need to double-crew HMS “Lancaster”; they have four months on and four months off. Will my noble friend the Minister look at this model for other vessels in the Royal Navy because it results in their being on station for much longer, or is it the case, as I suspect, that we simply do not have sufficient vessels to do this for a second vessel? Does it put too much strain on the naval personnel who are required to do that double-manning?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I do not know the detail on that, so I will find out and write to my noble friend.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister, being a good Scot, will perhaps know the Scottish Gaelic welcome, “One hundred thousand welcomes”. I am happy to join in repeating the welcome to him. He has already referred to the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, which is part of the deployment. A little further on in the Statement, the Secretary of State said:

“Four RAF flights carrying over 74 tonnes of aid have landed in Egypt. I am considering whether RFA Argus and RFA Lyme Bay can support medical and humanitarian aid provision”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/12/23; col. 211.]


Has that decision been taken? If not, does not the deterioration we see on a daily basis in relation to medical and humanitarian aid suggest that, if it is to be taken, it ought to be taken fairly quickly?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point. I am sure he knows that my right honourable friend is out in that part of the world at the moment; that is part of the conversations that are going on. The whole question of humanitarian aid is obviously uppermost in people’s minds. We have already supplied more than 70 tonnes of humanitarian aid, I think, but the difficulty is getting it into Gaza, of course. The Rafah entrance point is under severe congestion and there are stockpiles of aid ready to go in. One reason why conversations are going on at the moment is to see whether any other route can be negotiated with the Israel Defence Forces and the Israeli Government to get aid into Gaza; every avenue is being looked at.

[Baroness Helic (Con)]

My Lords, the key test in granting export licences is criterion 2C of the Strategic Export Licensing Criteria, which focuses on whether

“there is a clear risk that the items might be used to commit or facilitate a serious violation of international humanitarian law”.

Can my noble friend the Minister tell the House whether criterion 2C has been considered in granting arms exports to Israel?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, on the supply of military equipment to Israel, I can assure the House that no offensive military equipment has been delivered since 7 October. We do not have an enormously large export business with the Israelis in that respect anyway; it is between £40 million and £45 million. We have provided medical equipment at their request. In relation to ensuring adherence to international humanitarian law, we continue to push at the highest level for Israel to comply with international humanitarian law. We would engage with Israel if we observed any activity to the contrary.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, as we still have time, can I ask another question? When the UQ was held in the Commons, the Secretary of State said that 74 tonnes had been delivered to Egypt, I think; of course, as my noble friend has just said, that is not much good if it is not getting to Gaza. Has any of those 74 tonnes got to Gaza yet? If not, what action are we taking to ensure that they do?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

As my noble friend will know, there is a great stockpile of humanitarian aid ready to go in across a whole range of things, such as wound care packs, water filters, solar panels, lights, equipment, fork-lifts, conveyor belts and lighting towers. All sorts of things are ready to go in but the challenge is getting them approved and checked. I cannot give an absolute assurance as to how much has got in; I will find out and write when I can.

Ukraine

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Tuesday 28th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I shall now repeat in the form of a Statement an Answer given today in another place:

“Since I last updated the House on 24 October, the situation on the ground has remained largely unchanged. The armed forces of Ukraine continue to make slow but steady progress in their fight to retake their country, while a small crossing of the Dnipro has been established. Russian forces have made small advances in the northern axis of a pincer movement with which they are attempting to surround the town of Avdiivka.

Over the weekend, Russia launched what is likely the largest wave of one-way attack drone strikes on Ukraine of the war so far, ahead of another likely winter campaign of strikes against Ukrainian energy infrastructure. Ukraine neutralised most of the incoming weapons from this latest assault, and international partners, including the UK, are working with Ukraine to further strengthen its defences.

We will continue to support priority areas for Ukraine in the coming months, including air defence and hardening critical national infrastructure sites. Our foundational supply of critical artillery ammunition continues. We also continue to develop Ukraine’s maritime capabilities, helping it to deny Russia control in the western Black Sea. With government help, a UK-based commercial insurance provider has developed an insurance facility for shipping using the Ukraine maritime corridor. This facility charges premiums in line with those under the Black Sea grain initiative, which is crucial for reattracting commercial shipping.

The UK has committed £4.6 billion of military support to date, as we continue to donate significant amounts of ammunition and matériel from our own stocks, as well as those purchased from across the globe. In addition, we have trained more than 52,000 soldiers since 2015. Our support for next year is being finalised, both internally within the Government and with our partners around the world, and will be announced shortly”.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, the people of Ukraine are on the front line of our collective fight against totalitarianism. They deserve nothing less than our full-throated and complete support. Can the Minister assure the House that as we are yet to see the promised 2023 action plan for Ukraine, we might get sight of the 2024 plan before 2025? Will he promise your Lordships’ House that it will be accompanied by a funding commitment, which we are yet to see, for year three of the war?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the UK strongly condemns the appalling and illegal unprovoked attack that President Putin has launched on the people of Ukraine. We stand with Ukraine and continue to support its right to be a sovereign, independent and democratic nation. On the question of what our commitment is for the year to come, this is Ukraine’s plan for what it intends to do in 2024; it is not ours. Once Ukraine is ready to share that plan with the forces, we will of course be there in full support.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister should be able to answer, I hope, not on Ukraine’s plan but that of His Majesty’s Government. The Statement repeat suggested that support for next year is being finalised, talking about “within government” but also

“with our partners around the world”.

Can the Minister say whether that includes talking with industry? Unless we have access to adequate matériel and ammunition, we are not going to be able to deliver what is needed for Ukraine.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that the world will not have the relevant stockpiles unless the orders are placed with industry. There is an expectation of what the commitment will be and the rate of fire that is currently being managed—that is probably the best word—by the Ukrainian armed forces is its start point. Orders have been placed across the world with industry, and this country is not outwith that.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I belatedly welcome the noble Earl to his place and remind him that we once shared Chelsea barracks, nearly half a century ago. The Government have been very good and admirable in their behaviour with Ukraine, so let us congratulate them on that. However, I return to what the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, just said. Can the Minister reassure me and the House, and the country, that our armoury is full and replenished after all the stuff that we have given to Ukraine?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for those fond memories of serving Her Majesty. The question about replenishment is not on a like-for-like basis. A lot of what we have gifted to Ukraine has been from stockpiles. When you deplenish stockpiles, you replace with what is more current, what is new and what is more appropriate to the area of operation that we find ourselves in. We are not preparing for a Cold War; we are preparing for something very different, as I am sure everybody in this House is fully aware. Therefore, the orders that have been placed for missiles, cannons, rifle rounds and shells are appropriate for the weaponry that we are bringing in and currently have, rather than some of the gifted matériel that we have got rid of in recent years.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, I was interested to hear the reference to the insurance for shipping. We are all aware, I think, of the vital importance of getting the grain out of Ukraine, both to support the Ukrainian economy and because it is making such a difference in feeding many parts of the world. Can the Minister tell us whether other contingency plans are being made in case shipping lanes get blocked again, and not least whether there other ways of getting grain out of Ukraine while we have the time to make those preparations?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate makes a very good point. There is an alternative route to get grain out, which is across the land. However, it comes at a cost, which is highly punitive. I think that, before the war commenced, Ukraine accounted for between 8% and 10% of global wheat exports and about 10% to 12% of corn and barley exports. This is a significant logistical problem. The idea of shifting that amount of grain out of Ukraine via vehicles and trains is obviously quite a challenge, so the sea route is extremely important. We can take great credit for succeeding in getting insurance in place. This allows ship movements out, which are increasing quite dramatically, at the recognised premium rate rather than what I might call a war rate.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, in Ukraine the snows have come early. As the Minister has said, the military situation on the ground remains largely as it was when he gave his last Statement. Are the Government aware of any pressures, or are they party to any pressures now, on the Ukrainian Government to reach a territorial compromise?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right that winter has arrived in some force, as it has across quite a lot of southern Europe and further afield. The question of reaching a territorial compromise is obviously not something for us to be too involved in; it is for Ukraine. Ukraine has been absolutely resolute that it will not enter those conversations until all Ukrainian land is back within its sovereign right.

[Lord Soames of Fletching (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend pay tribute to the extraordinary skills of the British service men and women who are training these brave Ukrainian warriors? Would he further agree that now that general winter has a grip of the battle line, we are in for a period where there will be not much movement on either side, and therefore it is essential that Ukraine understands our unswerving commitment to it in the future.?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree with that statement. We can be extremely proud of the way that UK forces have trained Ukrainian soldiers to withstand the onslaught of the Russian might. This is basic training, which a number of us here have gone through. It is not particularly pleasant, but if you have not gone through it then the idea of facing up to the Russians is not something to be looked forward to. The Government are absolutely resolute not only in continuing this level of training but in supporting Ukraine right through to the finish.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that, in the Russian-occupied part of Ukraine, a number of children were removed from their families. Could the Minister assure the House that everything is being done to help these children be reunited with their parents?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right; this is an atrocious war crime. All pressure which is possible to be laid is being done so. To take children away from families is beyond expectation.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I am hosting a Ukrainian refugee family through the Homes for Ukraine scheme. The scheme was originally for two years, and I believe it started last April. What are the Government’s plans for renewing this scheme or replacing it with something else when it expires next April?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, this is not within my brief; this is for those at the Home Office. I will certainly contact them and find out exactly where they are in their thinking. My understanding is that there is no intention to do anything other than continue the current situation.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, in 2008 it was declared by NATO that Ukraine should become a member. Yesterday Jens Stoltenberg, the Secretary-General of NATO, declared that it was the intention now that Ukraine should become a member. Will the Government tell us the timetable for Ukraine to become a member of NATO and, thereby, to have the full protection of that organisation?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am not aware of any timetable, and I am not certain there is one. For Ukraine to become a member of NATO, the prerequisite is that there are no foreign troops on its soil. There certainly are foreign troops on its soil in vast quantities. Until that is resolved, I cannot believe that the NATO alliance can do anything other than continue in its resilient resistance.