Wales Bill
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth ExcerptsTuesday 15th November 2016
(7 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these amendments. In particular, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely.
With these amendments, the noble Lord and the noble Baroness are seeking to devolve legislative and executive competence to the Assembly and Welsh Ministers to regulate the number of high-stakes gaming machines authorised by new betting premises licensed in Wales. Betting, gaming and lotteries is currently not devolved in Wales and is reserved under the new reserved powers model provided for by the Bill.
As has just been demonstrated, Westminster, too, is concerned about some of the addiction and social harm issues that the noble Baroness has referred to. Until recently, this matter was also wholly reserved in Scotland, but earlier this year the Scotland Act 2016 devolved certain powers in relation to high-stakes gaming machines in new licensed betting premises. Apart from that, however, the reservation ensures a coherent framework for gambling across Great Britain, as well as a single regulatory environment covered by the Gambling Commission.
The Silk commission made no recommendations on the devolution of betting, gaming and lotteries, so the subject was not considered by the all-party St David’s Day process. However, in the St David’s Day agreement the Government committed to consider whether non-fiscal Smith commission proposals should be implemented for Wales. One such proposal, which we implemented for Scotland in the Scotland Act, would devolve certain powers in relation to so-called fixed-odds betting terminals. I understand the strength of feeling expressed by noble Lords this afternoon about the proliferation of high-stakes gaming machines in Wales. I also thank the noble Baroness for her candour about the last Labour Government in relation to this issue. It was very candid and courageous to state that.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked why the Government did not bring this measure forward. The answer is simply that it was not put forward by the all-party Silk commission and therefore was not picked up by the all-party St David’s Day process.
The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asked about the alert mechanism in the Bill for updating reserved powers. As with all reservations, the list of reservations can be modified by primary legislation made by Parliament or by order under Section 109 of the Government of Wales Act, where the order is subject to affirmative resolution in both Houses of Parliament and the Assembly. With regard to any alteration of reservations, we would of course seek the agreement of the Assembly under the process put forward in the Bill and under the convention that is in place.
Due to the strength of feeling that I have picked up in the House, I should like to look at this matter again, to reflect on the points made by noble Lords and to bring it back on Report. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
“Interpretation“Business association” has the same meaning as in Section C1.”
Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)
I support the amendment for the reasons that have been placed before the House. I raise one question that is common to this and to all the other matters involving the reserved elements of the Bill. I ask the Minister not so much as a Minster of the Crown but also as a distinguished professor of law who understands these issues well. Harken back to the undertaking that was given solemnly, and I have no doubt sincerely, by the then Prime Minister on the day after the Scottish referendum result when he said that Wales was at the very heart of devolution. To my mind, those were not intended to be empty words of adulation but to be an undertaking solemnly given to the people of Wales. I take them in that spirit. My question applies to this and to all the matters reserved that we regard as being trivial and unworthy of reservation. It is this: how does being at the heart of devolution square first with the principle of home rule, secondly with the concept that every decision should be taken at as local a level as possible and thirdly with a healthy interpretation of the concept of devolution? Those are not three different matters at all. At some point they seem to coalesce.
Ships in olden days took their position at noon, but nowadays with sophisticated technology that is no longer necessary. I would like to know what the position is at noon, as it were, in relation to Welsh devolution. I put that to the Minister with very great respect knowing that he will react reasonably to it.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate on Amendment 53, in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, who moved it. It seeks to reserve sea fishing outside the Welsh zone but makes an exception to that reservation for Welsh fishing boats. The notional effect of the amendment would be that the Assembly would have legislative competence for Welsh vessels outside the Welsh zone. However, in practical terms the amendment would have no effect because it seeks to reserve a power which the Assembly could not have. Under the Government of Wales Act 2006 and under this Bill, the Assembly’s legislative competence extends to the landmass of Wales and the sea adjacent to Wales out as far as the seaward boundary of the territorial sea; that is, 12 nautical miles, so as drafted it could have no effect. The Assembly has no legislative competence beyond that 12 miles—
Lord Elis-Thomas
The Minister will remember of course that before 2006 Wales did not even have a sea.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I am going on to tackle the point made by the noble Lord. The Assembly has no legislative competence as things stand although Welsh Ministers can exercise executive functions in that part of the Welsh zone beyond 12 nautical miles in so far as these have been conferred by United Kingdom enactments.
I take the points that have been made in relation to fishing, but as drafted we would need to look at the amendment. It proposes something fairly fundamental to the extent that it would vary the geographic extent of the Assembly’s competence. I would want to go away and have a look at that to see how it could be refined, if that is possible. This is not something that was considered by Silk or by the St David’s Day agreement and, as drafted, the amendment goes well beyond the issue of fishing licences.
My noble friend Lord Deben referred to some of the ramifications in relation to fishing policy as it exists at the moment through Europe and as it will exist in the future outside of Europe, but that is obviously still something to be refined. I want to reflect on that as well.
My noble friend Lord Crickhowell asked about the licensing of fishing vessels and the position in his former constituency of Pembroke—Preseli Pembrokeshire as it now is. I can well remember as an elected representative in the Assembly for that area going at about four o’clock in the morning to the fish market at Milford Haven to speak to electors. All the electors there were Spanish electors, although they did have vehicles that were licensed in Wales as part of the United Kingdom. I think that that remains the position at the moment, but how it will pan out post-Brexit I do not know.
If I may I will take the amendment away and look at it, but based on the fact that there are far more ramifications to this than just fishing, and even in relation to fishing there are of course considerable ramifications—beyond 12 miles it is an economic zone for the state of the United Kingdom and we would exercise powers in relation to that for the whole country. On the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, I thank him for his always gentle and complimentary approach which has me doing things I would probably not normally agree to; I recognise the dangers. I hope that we have looked at things in relation to this legislation on a pragmatic basis because that is the way to approach it. Any general rule is going to have to give way to exceptions because as we can see there are always difficulties in these things. Sometimes they look much more straightforward than they are. My door is always open and we have set up meetings with many noble Lords. I am happy to do that, but as I say our approach to the legislation is a good British pragmatic one. I will look without prejudice at what I think is a much more difficult area than perhaps it looks on the face of it. With that, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
I thank the Minister. His reply reminded me of the time when I was an MEP and I went to meet the head of the sea fishermen’s association of Wales, Mr Gonzalez. Times have changed; we will see what happens.
I am delighted that the Minister is happy to look at this again. We would be happy to redraft the amendment. I do not quite understand why, if Welsh Government Ministers have this competence, the Welsh Assembly cannot be allowed it. Perhaps I need to go away and think about it. We come back to the issue of aligning legislative and Executive competence. If the noble Lord could look at that, I will of course withdraw my amendment.
“Agricultural and horticultural produce, animals and animal products, seeds, animal feeding stuffs, fertilisers and pesticides (including anything treated as if it were a pesticide by virtue of an enactment).”
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, in this group there are government amendments and non-government amendments. To try to ensure the proposers of the non-government amendments have an adequate opportunity to present their cases, I will try to extrapolate the two, although I appreciate that for Amendment 65 and government Amendment 65A it might be a little difficult as they are very much in the same territory. That apart, if I stray into non-government amendments, I would be grateful if noble Lords could gently tell me.
Government Amendment 53D modifies Section C14 of new Schedule 7A to set a more accurate devolution boundary relating to the Export Credits Guarantee Department, the ECGD. The department, acting as UK Export Finance, is the United Kingdom’s official export credit agency supporting United Kingdom exporters. Amendment 53D makes the ECGD a particular authority, thereby prohibiting the Assembly from legislating about it in any way. It replaces the existing wording, “subject-matter of” reservation, removing any uncertainty about how that reservation relates to the devolved matter of economic development, including providing advice and assistance to Welsh businesses. Its effect, therefore, is to allow the ECGD to continue to offer support, which we would all welcome.
On government Amendment 65A, the Government recognise that the Assembly has legislative competence over council tax reduction schemes. We accept that council tax reduction schemes are an integral part of the local government finance system, which is devolved. To that end, the Government have tabled Amendment 65A to remove the words,
“or liabilities for local taxes”,
from sub-paragraph (c) of the “social security schemes” definition under Section F1 of new Schedule 7A. This would remove any reference to local council tax and have the same effect as the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan.
We are content to devolve legislative competence to the Assembly as it is now an integral part of local government finance. I trust the amendment will satisfy the noble Baroness, but I look forward to hearing from her on that point.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
It is a good thing that the Government have decided to devolve powers relating to council tax benefit, but are they also proposing to devolve the financial resources necessary to enable the National Assembly and, if the National Assembly chooses to do so, local authorities in Wales to exercise these powers usefully and constructively?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, the noble Lord will know that the financial arrangements are those of the Barnett block, which has existed for some time. That is currently subject to a floor and being considered in terms of fiscal arrangements. Obviously, it would not be an integral part of any devolved system to allow a devolved Government to bring forward laws and then say that the system should be funded by the centre; it has to be funded by the package that exists, whatever that may be.
Government Amendment 67B makes an addition to the list of matters which are treated as exceptions to the reservation for prisons and offender management. As drafted, Section L11 of new Schedule 7A treats the provision of healthcare, social care and education and training as exceptions to the general reservation. On consideration, the Government have come to the view that libraries should also be an exception to the reservation so that the Assembly has legislative competence over libraries in prisons in Wales. Welsh Ministers already have the power to make rules in relation to prison libraries, and libraries more generally are a devolved matter, so that clearly makes sense.
I am pleased to propose Amendment 67D, which seeks to address concerns expressed by the Welsh Government that the present wording in Section L12 of new Schedule 7A would have the effect of reserving some matters which are currently within the Assembly’s competence. That present competence is by virtue of the conferral of the protection and well-being of children, other than in relation to family law and proceedings, within the devolved subject of social welfare. The concern is that the wording of the reservation would arguably include, and so reserve, matters such as local authorities’ duty to investigate under Section 47 of the Children Act 1989 and applications for secure accommodation orders made by local authorities. This was not the Government’s intention. The amendment therefore modifies the reservation to resolve the concerns and provide a clearer devolution boundary. It does so by focusing on proceedings and orders made under Parts 4 and 5 of the Children Act 1989 rather than “the subject-matter of” that Act.
On Amendments 119B and 119K, the Wales Act 2014 imposed a requirement on the Welsh Government to share land transaction information with HMRC. This information is vital for HMRC’s compliance work, for policy work across government departments and for the Valuation Office Agency’s work. The Welsh Government have since established the Welsh Revenue Authority, which will administer the taxes devolved to Wales by the Wales Act 2014, including land transaction tax, and will be the body with which HMRC needs to share land transaction information. New legal gateways are therefore required to share information in both directions between HMRC and the WRA. The amendments do not represent any change in policy but enable the existing policy to be implemented, and are fully supported by the Welsh Government. On that basis, I commend the government amendments in this group.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 66A, 67A and 67C in my name. Amendment 66A refers to job searches and careers. Paragraph 141 of the new schedule relates to “job search and support” and,
“arrangements for assisting persons to select, train for, obtain and retain employment, and to obtain suitable employees”.
Careers services are an exception to this reservation, which are devolved to the Welsh Assembly.
The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of this House queried what this means and how it would work in practice. It asked:
“Does this mean that the Assembly will have power to legislate as regards the provision of a service to assist persons in choosing a career, but that service could not include helping persons find a job in their chosen career?”.
This is clearly nonsensical. The Minister is undoubtedly well aware of this criticism in the committee’s report, so I look forward to his clarification, but I point out to everyone that there has been a long-standing issue of lack of connectivity and co-operation between the Welsh Government’s services and the UK Government’s services on job search and benefits, and a confused situation is not in the interests of people searching for careers or jobs.
Amendment 67A leaves out reservation 161 on the safety of sports grounds. It seems that the safety of sports grounds is currently within the Assembly’s competence, so this is the Government reducing the competence of the Assembly in the Bill. Why are the Government doing this? What is the key strategic reason that the Government feel ensures that they have to keep the safety of sports grounds in Wales within their control? After all, sports issues are devolved and have been since 1999. Through the Sports Council, through local authorities and through lottery funding, over which the Welsh Government have considerable influence via the Sports Council for Wales, the Assembly and the Welsh Government can fund sports facilities, right up to the level of the Principality Stadium. However, they are apparently not now considered capable of dealing with safety at those grounds. Once again, there is a lack of thinking through here—after all, who are you co-operating with in dealing with safety issues? Obviously, with the police, but also with the local authority on issues such as road closures and other facilities for crowds at sports grounds.
Finally, Amendment 67C relates to adoption. Reservation 175 relates to parenthood, parental responsibility, child arrangements and adoption. There is a lack of clarity about what this means generally, but I am specifically concerned about adoption. This is clearly a reduction in the Assembly’s current legislative competence. Other than intercountry adoption, adoption services are currently entirely devolved. This includes the recruitment of adopters, their training, matching and post-adoption support. As written, the only function that the Assembly would retain on adoption would be in relation to adoption agencies. Why have the Government decided to reduce the Assembly’s powers in this field? It is a field where it is essential that the various agencies work really closely together and that there is a seamless service for adopted children and those who are adopting. It is important that those services—social services, local authorities, education and the health service—are overwhelmingly part of the devolved picture. Adoption goes along with that very clearly.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for speaking to the non-government amendments in this group and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, for saying that she will not move her amendment. The three remaining non-government amendments were spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and I turn first to Amendment 66A.
The reservation at Section H3 of new Schedule 7A covers the provision of advice and support to assist people to select, train for, obtain and retain employment or to assist employers to recruit suitable employees, including by providing assistance for disabled persons. The intention behind this reservation is to reserve legislative competence in relation to all work-related programmes for which the Secretary of State is responsible under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act 1944 and Section 2 of the Employment and Training Act 1973 —for example, Access to Work and Work Choice. Under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act 1944, the Secretary of State may make arrangements to facilitate severely disabled people to obtain employment or work on their own account and to train for such employment. Welsh Ministers exercise concurrent executive functions in relation to certain sections of the Employment and Training Act 1973, and these are included in the Bill in the list of concurrent functions in Schedule 4.
The Government accept and recognise that the provision of careers information, advice and guidance is devolved and falls to Careers Wales, whereas employment is a reserved matter. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, is right in relation to that. In practical and operational terms, the DWP works with Careers Wales, which often has a presence in the DWP’s jobcentres. I am very happy to look at improving co-operation between the two in the light of what the noble Baroness said so that services run in a smooth, dovetailed way and are not duplicated so there is no friction. I suspect there will inevitably be a degree of overlap, but this is perfectly understood on the ground.
On that basis, we cannot see any reason for the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, but I will look at the issue of co-operation which she raised. There are two areas, one devolved, one reserved, coming together and inevitably there will be a degree of blurring. I am very keen that where this sort of thing happens we have protocols to ensure that there is co-operation, so I will look at that.
Baroness Randerson
Will the Minister look again at this situation? My amendment was based on the judgment of the Delegated Powers Committee of this House, which looked at it from the outside, being unfamiliar in general with the operation of the devolution settlement in Wales. It found it confusing. It is therefore worth looking at it again and testing it out against the practicalities of what happens in relation to the careers service.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I hope I indicated that I want to be aware of what is happening on the ground. The information I have is that it is working successfully and has been doing so for quite some time. However, I will have a look at it and write to the noble Baroness and other noble Lords who participated in debates on the Bill.
Amendment 67A relates to two areas, one of which is devolved—sport and recreation. The other is not—safety at sports grounds. That is a health and safety issue and is currently reserved. Health and safety is an explicit exception to competence in the current settlement, and it is on that basis that we resist this amendment.
Safety at sports grounds is of paramount importance to the Government, and it is often determined at a European level. It is through the work of the Sports Grounds Safety Authority that we have robust and effective procedures in place across England and Wales to ensure that spectators are as safe and secure as possible when watching sport. The current arrangements, which were brought in following the stadium tragedies at Ibrox, Bradford and Hillsborough, ensure a consistent approach to sports ground safety across England and Wales to ensure the continued safety of spectators. I recently visited Bradford City’s stadium, so I can speak of the work that was done there after that tragedy.
The multiagency approach overseen by the Sports Ground Safety Authority brings together all the emergency services—the police, ambulance and fire services—stadium management, local authorities and stewards. There have been no major incidents at sports stadia since the current arrangements were put in place some 27 years ago.
However, we face new threats to spectator safety in the form of terrorism, as seen in the tragic events a year ago at the Stade de France, and from new technology in the form of drones that can infiltrate stadia and expose spectators to danger. The Sports Grounds Safety Authority is providing support and guidance to sports grounds, clubs and other stakeholders and disseminating messages from the United Kingdom Football Policing Unit and National Counter Terrorism Security Office to help meet these new challenges. It is working to ensure that spectator safety remains a priority whatever the threat. It is on that basis that we are resisting this amendment.
Amendment 67C, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, relates to adoption. We cannot accept this amendment as drafted, as it would not only devolve the functions of adoption agencies—which are already within the competence of the Assembly and an exception to the family relationships and children reservation in Section L12 of new Schedule 7A—but have the effect of devolving the substantive law on adoption, which is not of course currently devolved. The reservation does no more than reflect the current competence of the Assembly, which does not include any of the substantive law on adoption. However, I am aware of concerns on the part of the Welsh Government, and the noble Baroness made a powerful case about the extent of this reservation. I would like to reflect on the issue further, although I can say that that will not include reconsideration of the reservation of adoption law as such, which is probably not something that the noble Baroness was seeking.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked about the basis for reservations. I have tried to cover this by saying that our approach has been pragmatic. It has obviously been influenced heavily by the Silk commission, of which I was part, and by the St David’s Day agreement. Both of those were consensual processes, and I applaud all political parties for taking part in them. We then had a draft Bill, which I think by common accord has been improved. We now seek to improve the legislation further as it goes through this House, and I think noble Lords will acknowledge that on some of the issues that have been of concern around the Chamber—teachers’ pay, fixed-odds betting terminals and so on—we have moved to accommodate some of the feelings expressed. On that basis, I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, not to press her amendment, as I think the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, has agreed not to do.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
My Lords, we have heard some very passionate speeches and we are all very aware of how emotional the issue of water can become in Wales. The Minister is aware of how sensitive this issue is, especially following the travesty of the development at Tryweryn, which the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, mentioned. In fact, the Secretary of State, who is present —we welcome him to this Chamber—was clear in his public announcement yesterday that a second Tryweryn could never happen. The events at Tryweryn occurred in 1965, before I was born, but the fact that it has left an impression even on my generation says something about the powerful message that was sent at that time. I do not want to be churlish but I was fairly confident about this issue, having sought assurances from Welsh Government officials, who suggested that current planning laws already devolved to Wales could probably have stopped that scandal being repeated. I hope the Minister will confirm whether that is the case. As I say, I do not want to be churlish, so I cautiously welcome the announcement made yesterday by the Secretary of State for Wales in relation to water. However, I will reserve my judgment until we have seen the detail. On the face of it, the announcement should be a positive move but, as always, the devil is in the detail. Until we have had a chance to scrutinise that proposal, I intend to press ahead with our amendments.
The Bill amends Section 114 of the 2006 Act by limiting the grounds on which the Secretary of State can intervene to prevent the Presiding Officer submitting an Assembly Bill for Royal Assent. That section currently allows an intervention, so I look forward to the government amendment to remove it. The Minister should be aware that anything other than a complete deletion of this section will be looked on unfavourably.
Notwithstanding the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, I stand by Amendment 54, which would require the full devolution of water and sewerage to be aligned with the geographical boundary with England, as set out in the Silk report and the St David’s Day Command Paper. The work of the joint Governments’ water and sewerage devolution programme board, which was established following the St David’s Day paper to consider the alignment competence, found that changes can be achieved with minimal impact on consumers of water and sewerage services. I was delighted to see that in the letter to Peers that the Minister sent last week, he suggested that he was looking at this issue. Therefore, we hope that he will look favourably on this amendment.
The third amendment relates to the regulator. Ofwat, the regulator for water and sewerage providers in England and Wales, should be fully accountable to the National Assembly for Wales in respect of the functions it exercises in relation to Wales to better reflect the current devolution settlement on water matters. The amendment would make it a requirement for Ofwat to produce a report to Welsh Ministers and for that report to be laid before the National Assembly in respect of the functions it exercises in relation to Wales. The amendment would require the nomination of a board member as a joint appointment between the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to reflect a new arrangement which the Welsh Government consider necessary consequent to full legislative competence for water and sewerage.
Amendment 104 is proposed to amend Section 27 of the Water Industry Act to require the Secretary of State to seek the consent of Welsh Ministers before issuing general directions to Ofwat in respect of matters where functions are exercised by water and sewerage undertakers in Wales, or where licensed activities are carried out using the system of a water or sewerage undertaker wholly or mainly in Wales.
These changes are necessary so that Ofwat is fully accountable to the National Assembly for Wales and Welsh Ministers for those functions to be exercisable in relation to Wales. It is therefore important that we apply appropriate Assembly procedures to regulations which make provision within the Assembly’s competence. Scotland has great scope on environmental powers, including the regulation of water. It is only right that Wales is awarded equal authority in this respect.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these amendments, which relate to water. I particularly welcome the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who moved his amendment with sensitivity and fairness on an issue which I know is very close to his heart. The Government are determined that never again should there be a Tryweryn. That is at the back of all our thinking on this issue.
I welcome the contributions from around the Committee. My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral spoke with passion of his time in north Wales, and the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, talked of his home county of Meirionnydd. I also welcome the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. I could not agree more with the sentiments that they expressed. I also thank my noble friend Lord Crickhowell—with his background and experience as chairman of the National Rivers Authority—for bringing his authority to this issue: aligning the border is not necessarily straightforward.
Water is of symbolic importance as well as practical significance to Wales. It evokes more passion and debate than probably any other issue relating to Welsh devolution. It is not just about Tryweryn; as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, reminded us, it is about the Dulas Valley as well, and there have been other issues. I thank noble Lords for contributing to the debate from the viewpoint of their own experiences. The strength of feeling has been amply demonstrated in their speeches.
In announcing the Government’s intention to devolve pay, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales signalled that the Government were exploring other aspects of the settlement to ensure that it is as clear and fair as possible. Yesterday, my right honourable friend Alun Cairns announced the Government’s intention to remove the Secretary of State’s powers to intervene on water and to replace them with a statutory protocol on water between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government. Work will be done on that, and we hope to have the detail ready for Report.
That is a highly significant announcement. Water has been a challenging issue, as anyone familiar with recent Welsh history will know. The replacement of the intervention powers with a formal protocol marks a step change in the history of Welsh devolution—one that resolves past differences and provides clarity for the future. The move also removes any last impediment that there may be—at least in terms of this Bill; I hope the noble Baroness will be able to clarify this—to the Assembly giving its approval to the Wales Bill, subject of course to agreement on the fiscal arrangements.
The existing intervention powers were put in place in the Government of Wales Act 2006, when Peter Hain—now the noble Lord, Lord Hain—was Secretary of State. Since then, there has been a great deal of development in relation to devolution. This Bill marks a move to a new, durable and lasting devolution settlement, underpinned by a recognition of the maturity of the Assembly and the Welsh Government. In keeping with this, it is time to replace the Secretary of State’s powers to intervene on the Assembly and Welsh Ministers in relation to water with a statutory protocol between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government which defines how the two Governments will work together on water-related issues—in particular, cross-border issues.
I confirm that the Government intend to bring forward amendments on Report to put in place the requirement for a formal agreement and to remove the intervention powers. In doing so, it will be important to respect the interests of water users in both Wales and England. As my noble friend Lord Crickhowell exemplified, this is not necessarily straightforward in every respect.
Lord Elis-Thomas
I am excited not just by the environmental and political aspects of this but by the constitutional implications. Can the Minister help us by indicating whether establishing a protocol in relation to powers between the Assembly and this Parliament, and indeed between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, is something that he would consider in other areas of policy in the Bill?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, as I have indicated, working together between the Government in Cardiff and the Government of the United Kingdom is of interest to all of us who believe in an effective United Kingdom and an effective Wales. So, yes, I am certainly in favour of that, as I have indicated. In so far as we can provide for that, the Government are open to looking at it. With the excitement of that intervention, I have lost my place.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I fully understand.
It will be important to put in place a protocol with bite. Both Governments will be subject to a duty to act in accordance with the new agreement and, once it is in place, both will need to agree any changes to it. The agreement will also need to include a process for resolving any disagreements that both Governments will sign up to.
It is as yet too early to say how soon the new arrangements will be agreed, but the Government will repeal the Secretary of State’s water intervention powers once an agreement is signed and sealed. This historic commitment to remove the intervention powers paves the way to conclude the Government’s consideration of the wider devolution issues relating to water and sewerage, including the sewerage intervention powers currently in Clause 46 of the Bill and the question of whether powers over water and sewerage should be aligned with the England-Wales border.
The Silk report recognised that water and sewerage devolution was complex and that further work was needed to consider the practical implications of implementing the commission’s recommendations. Following the St David’s Day agreement, the Government set up the joint Governments’ programme board with the Welsh Government to look at these issues and report on the likely effects that implementing the recommendations would have on the efficient delivery of water and sewerage services, on consumers and on the water undertakers.
That work has concluded and the Government have been considering the evidence that has been collected. In doing so, it has been particularly important to consider carefully the interests of customers and businesses on both sides of the border before reaching a decision on the recommendations. It remains the Government’s intention to bring forward provisions to implement the recommendations, if such a thing is achievable, and I hope to be able to return to this on Report.
I will now turn to other water-related amendments that are not Silk recommendations. Amendment 104, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, seeks to amend the Water Industry Act 1991 as it relates to Ofwat. Part of this amendment would require the Secretary of State to seek the consent of Welsh Ministers before making directions to Ofwat, outlining her priorities for keeping the activities of water companies under review. This would occur where these directions apply to Welsh water companies and licensees carrying out activities in the areas of those companies. This requirement for consent would cover all of Ofwat’s functions, including those applicable to policy areas reserved to the Secretary of State, such as those relating to competition law, insolvency and mergers. This would give the Welsh Ministers considerable influence over policy areas that are not devolved.
The noble Baroness’s amendment would also place a requirement on Ofwat to make its annual report to the Assembly rather than just send it a copy, as is currently the case. At present there is nothing to prevent the Welsh Ministers laying before the Assembly the annual report that Ofwat sends them or publishing it in any manner they see fit.
The amendment requires appointments to Ofwat’s board to be made jointly by the Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers. Other amendments seek to grant Welsh Ministers joint powers with the Secretary of State over board members’ terms and conditions. Currently, the Secretary of State makes all appointments following consultation with the Welsh Ministers and consults them on some other aspects. In practice, this means that the Secretary of State writes to the Welsh Ministers to seek their views on an applicant before confirming the appointment. However, the Welsh Government are also invited to sit on the appointment panel, which is chaired by Defra. This, along with the various requirements to consult Welsh Ministers, already provides the Welsh Government with considerable influence over the process and final appointment decisions.
Amendment 105 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, concerns the abstraction of water from Welsh reservoirs. As I think I have indicated, I share the views expressed by noble Lords today: the events of some 50 years ago which resulted in the flooding of Tryweryn were some of the darkest and most regrettable days in modern Welsh history. Never again.
In answer to the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan—I am delighted to note that she did not wish to be churlish; I welcome that very much—decisions about the construction of new reservoirs and environmental controls are already devolved to the Assembly. However, we are going further—and rightly so. The Assembly exercises legislative competence in relation to both issues: construction and environmental controls. The Welsh Ministers would need to issue a compulsory works order to allow the construction of a new reservoir to take place. It is within the competence of the Assembly to give itself a role in the issue of consent orders.
Natural Resources Wales is the environmental body which regulates abstraction in Wales. Again, the Welsh Minsters and the Assembly can legislate to change or add to its powers. Nevertheless, as announced yesterday by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, the Government intend to remove the Secretary of State’s powers to intervene on water and replace them with a protocol. I think that that is in the spirit of where we need to be in relation to this totemic and practically significant area of water. On that basis—
Lord Wigley
I have listened very carefully to the response that the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, has given us. Quite clearly, there is an intention to make considerable movement in what I and many others would regard as the right direction on this matter—but we cannot come to a judgment on that until we see what comes forward on Report. However, can he confirm one thing? Notwithstanding that there are powers in planning, and the other powers that he has mentioned, will he consider between now and Report to have it written on the face of the Bill, so that there is no doubt whatever, that the construction of the reservoirs in Wales is a function of the National Assembly, in the same way that it is spelled out that the control of fracking is in the control of the National Assembly? Can he give us an assurance that he will be looking for words by which to achieve that between now and Report?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I can certainly give the noble Lord the assurance that if it is not on the face of the Bill, a protocol that contains it will be referred to on the face of the Bill—that is important. It is perhaps something that we can return to. I am meeting the noble Lord and I appreciate the sensitivities in this area. I want to ensure, as I think we all do, that there can be no future Tryweryn. If it is helpful to put that on the face of the Bill, we will do so, and I am very happy to discuss that with the noble Lord ahead of Report.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
I am pleased that there will be movement on the intervention powers of the Secretary of State. That is a very positive move. I am also very pleased the Minister has clarified the fact that we could have stopped what happened at Tryweryn with the current powers—that has come across clearly. But he did not say, in relation to Ofwat, whether he is minded to move on that issue. The impression I got was that he was not, but perhaps he will clarify that.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I am happy to clarify that point. I believe that the existing powers in relation to the Welsh Government and Welsh Ministers are sufficient, but I am very happy to look at that issue and cover it in the protocol, which could extend to that if it is something that we should be doing. I will happily discuss that with the noble Baroness.
Lord Elis-Thomas
The Minister will recollect that we worked together in the National Assembly. I looked at this issue at the time and I can reassure him and the House that the way in which he described the current position in planning and environmental law is indeed the position. But of course that does not mean that we cannot strengthen it by making indications about the intervention powers of the Secretary of State. On that, I think we are all agreed.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for reminding me of the years of co-operation we had in the National Assembly for Wales and for clarifying that issue in the way that he did. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I am very grateful to everyone who has participated in this debate, including two former Secretaries of State for Wales—we had four in the Chamber and one adjacent to it at one point; a remarkable situation—and for the expertise that they have brought to our consideration. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Thomas of Gresford, for their passion and background, which added to our understanding, and the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, from Aberdovey, for his historical knowledge and appreciation of the importance of this issue to the people of Wales. I thank also the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, for her contribution and her amendments, which I think should be considered along with the others between now and Report—perhaps we can discuss those. I am grateful for the intervention of my noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas, who represents in the National Assembly the area that includes the Tryweryn valley.
I think that we are making progress. We have not got there yet but there is much to be considered and built upon between now and Report. If the Minister can deliver what he seems to want to deliver, and if his colleagues in the Wales Office can do likewise, then quite possibly we can, once and for all, put this issue to bed by making it quite clear that control of these matters is in the hands of the elected National Assembly for Wales. There is a need for co-operation, but there is also a need to appreciate the importance of communities and the significance of this issue to our nation. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on devolution of energy to the National Assembly for Wales. I turn first to Amendment 55A, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, which seeks to add an exception to the reservation in new Schedule 7A relating to the,
“Generation, transmission, distribution and supply of electricity”.
It is an amendment that needs to be considered in the context of Clauses 37 and 40, and of reservation M4 on “Development and Buildings”.
The Silk commission recommended that there should be further devolution to Wales—it is further devolution, as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, recognised—of responsibility for consenting electricity generation projects, and that there should be a more streamlined approach to consenting ancillary developments required to sit alongside those projects. Those were points well made in the debate. There was cross-party consensus to implement these recommendations taken forward under the St David’s Day agreement. Without looking at the Silk process, although I accept that it is important for the legislation, this is essentially based on the St David’s Day agreement.
We achieve the expanded role that Silk envisaged through the combined effects of Clauses 37 and 40, which clearly set out the parameters of the new devolution settlement in this area. The extent of that settlement is further reinforced by the terms of reservation M4, which provides that the very instances referenced at Clauses 37 and 40 are carved out of the range of planning matters that are reserved.
To provide further clarity on this point, the consenting of a generating station or an overhead line is a planning matter. While I accept that the proposed amendment is well intentioned, it would be not only superfluous but, as an addition to reservation D1, misplaced. Section D1 relates to the regulation and licensing of the process of generating electricity and to what subsequently happens to that electricity. This is the regime administered on a GB level by Ofgem, which includes Scotland. It does not concern itself with the planning for, or the construction of, the means of generating electricity.
Further, as drafted, the reservation would add confusion to the particular reservation and potentially the schedule in general. The Assembly’s legislative competence is limited to Wales—the counties forming Wales and the territorial waters adjacent to those counties. The amendment talks about planning in the “Welsh zone”, which includes seas beyond the territorial waters and outside the legislative competence of the Assembly, as we touched on earlier about the issue beyond the 12 miles of territorial sea. I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, will take those points on board.
As I said, the Bill already devolves matters relating to the planning for developments of up to 350 megawatts. This is not a point that has been covered, but the Energy Act 2016 has already devolved all onshore wind consents without limit to local authorities in Wales. At the same time, we devolved power to the Assembly to change that to the Welsh Government if it wanted to do so. In response to my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, I recognise his view that this should be a matter for local people, which I share, but at the same time, with this being a devolved issue, it would be for the Welsh Government to alter that if they wanted to do so. We have indicated our intention by giving the power to local authorities. The Welsh Assembly could alter that. There is no limit to the power relating to onshore wind. That might reassure noble Lords who were unaware of that.
The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, asked about a protocol. I will certainly go this far: it is important that Ministers talk together. Many of these projects are happening at a UK level. We should not consider that there is always malign intent on the part of the UK Government towards Wales. As we know from the Swansea lagoon project and others, important infrastructure projects are being moved forward by the UK Government, who are talking on a regular basis to officials and Ministers in Wales. Those points were covered by my noble friends Lady Bloomfield and Lady Finn. It is right that some of these important decisions are discussed between Wales and the United Kingdom.
I also say to the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, that I know, because I was a Minister in the Department of Energy and Climate Change, that BEIS is looking at small modular reactors. Trawsfynydd’s interest has obviously been noted, but I have to say to him that if it had been in Scotland it would not have got off the ground because of the nuclear element. Sometimes there are unintended consequences to these things. To come back to the issue we are looking at, the amendment as drafted would not achieve what it seeks to do, in any event.
Amendments 99, 100, 101 and 102 seek to reopen a key recommendation of the Silk commission and the St David’s Day commitment: that the devolution threshold for future consenting for electricity generation in Wales should be 350 megawatts and below. That threshold gives the Assembly and Welsh Government substantially more autonomy in determining the shape of Wales’s future energy structure than was previously the case.
I accept that any level is, in a sense, arbitrary. It has to be a matter of judgment where it is set as to what is appropriate for the UK Parliament and what is appropriate for Wales—hence the importance of the dialogue between the two Governments and the two Parliaments. It respects the fact that Wales and England are, and will remain, intrinsically linked through a common electricity transmission system that depends on inputs from a broad range of generating sources. The Government remain firmly of the view that, the larger the capacity of those sources, the greater their significance beyond the confines of Wales and to the United Kingdom as a whole. Those points have been made by noble Lords as the debate has progressed.
Consensus was reached during the St David’s Day process about the cut-off point. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said that if the Swansea lagoon is within this process for Wales—as I accept it is—it is simply an issue of scale. I agree that it is an issue of scale; that is where the cut-off comes in, because the cut-off has to be arbitrary. I cannot see that it can be any other way. It is a matter of judgment as to what is strategically significant for the United Kingdom and what is appropriate for Wales.
Lord Wigley
On that point, with regard to Swansea Bay being just below the threshold and Cardiff and Colwyn Bay being just above it, does it not make all sense for this limit to be adjusted at least enough to take those together, so the expertise in handling these matters is all in one place?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I say two things to that. First, I am certainly not going to get into a Dutch auction as to what should come within on that basis. Of course I understand the point he makes, but my second point takes me back to one I have already made: we need a ready and willing dialogue between the Welsh Government and the National Assembly, as I think is happening, and between BEIS and Parliament. There is no reason to suppose that there is a malign intent regarding these projects. I know the noble Lord is not suggesting that.
Government Amendment 119G is a minor and technical change to Schedule 5. Under Clause 37, Welsh Ministers will have the ability to consent to electricity generating stations of up to 350 megawatts in waters adjacent to Wales. The vehicle for doing so will be Section 36 of the Electricity Act 1989, and Schedule 5 to the Bill gives Welsh Ministers the ability, by regulation, to amend the Section 36 application processes to suit their purposes. The Bill currently also extends that regulation-making power to Section 37 of the Electricity Act, which relates to the consenting of overhead power lines. However, as Section 37 consenting powers are not being devolved in the Bill, the power is ineffective and it makes sense to remove it.
Government Amendment 121 amends Clause 55. Further to the one-stop-shop philosophy for energy consenting advocated by the Silk commission, Clause 41 provides the Secretary of State with the ability to consent associated developments along with the principal consent for nationally significant infrastructure projects in the field of electricity generation and transmission. This will deliver significant streamlining improvements to a system which, at present, can require developers to assemble consents from a plethora of different authorities. It is wholly consistent with the Government’s policy of encouraging infrastructure development for these changes to be introduced as soon as it is practical. The amendment will achieve that by commencing the relevant provisions two months after the Bill’s Royal Assent.
On that basis, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment, and for her and the noble Lord not to press the other amendments in the group. I intend to move the government amendments.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
My Lords, I thank those who have participated in this debate. I recognise that my amendment on electricity generation, distribution and supply was imperfect; it was meant to generate a debate of this kind. I understand that there are no limits in terms of power over onshore wind and certainly do not want to imply any malign intent on the part of the UK Government, but the complexity of the current model means that it is extremely difficult for Wales to compete in a global investment energy market. If it is much easier to go through a planning process in Denmark than in Wales, why would you not go to Denmark? It is a shame that we have not come to any conclusion on this, but it is an issue that we need to look at. We may need to look at how we streamline the process. It may be another issue where we could put a protocol in place, because we like protocols as a way of moving things forward.
On the cap beneath which we should be allowed to determine energy consents in Wales, I am not sure how much further we have gone. Dialogue is good, as the Minister suggested, but I am not sure what kind of commitment that represents. I hope to retain our ability to come back to discuss both amendments on Report, but for now I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 55A.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, the Government’s contention that energy policy-making powers, even on such intrinsically local issues as heating and cooling and energy conservation, should be reserved to the Government of the United Kingdom, because they are essential to our country having a national energy strategy, would be the more impressive if our country had a national energy strategy, but the truth of the matter is, notwithstanding the no doubt valiant efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, when he was a Minister at the Department of Energy and Climate Change, we do not have a national energy policy.
Since 2010, energy policy has consisted of prolonged dithering in the face of major decisions that it was necessary to take, particularly on nuclear power, and on the creation of incentives for renewables, which were then removed as the Government did a complete volte-face in their attitude to green issues and green values. The consequence is that we now have unaffordable energy prices, a dangerous dependence on energy imports from politically unreliable parts of the world and energy insecurity. If the Government of the United Kingdom have proved themselves incapable of developing and maintaining an energy policy for England and Wales together, why will they not at least allow the Government of Wales to develop and maintain an energy policy for Wales?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who participated in the debates on heat and cooling and on energy conservation. Amendment 56 seeks to remove the reservation that deals with the supply of heat and cooling. It is important to be clear that the reservation is concerned with policy on heat supply, which is analogous to the supply of every other type of energy. Heat is strategically significant and represents almost half of our energy use and around one-third of carbon emissions. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, that the Government have a very definitive energy policy—not just when I was Minister, I hasten to add—very much signing up to the climate change targets internationally, along with many other countries, as he will know; a commitment to nuclear, which I do not think is shared, certainly, by his party leader; and a commitment to diverse sources of energy. Let us put that canard to rest: there is a very definitive energy policy.
The policy in relation to heat is significant. Heat represents, as I say, almost half our energy use and around one-third of carbon emissions. The reason that we are seeking to reserve this is because it is a relatively new technology; it is about supplying heat, through policies such as the renewable heat incentive, the heat networks investment project, the combined heat and power quality assurance scheme and innovation support, and through initiatives such as the smart systems and heat programme, all of which are part of the United Kingdom’s energy policy. I accept that rollout and delivery will always be at a local authority level, but it is question of how the framework is set. These policies already exist and benefit the people of both Wales and England. It seems clear that devolving this area would increase costs, due to a loss of economies of scale, and would add complexity and confusion for businesses and householders and add to bills. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, touched on affordability, which is certainly a prime concern of the Government, along with security of supply and ensuring that energy is green.
Heat is not simply a local issue. There are strategic decisions to be taken over the coming years, including options that would require action at a national level, such as decarbonisation, possibly even decommissioning, of the existing gas grid. These emerging national-level heat issues mean that it would be far more effective to maintain consistency between England and Wales, and it is why grid and infrastructure issues relating to oil, gas and electricity are also reserved in Scotland as well as in Wales. I hope I have explained the Government’s reasons for this reservation and why I am not able to accept the amendment.
Amendment 57 seeks to remove the reservation that deals with energy-efficiency requirements. The reservation uses the term “energy conservation” to reflect the language in the existing devolution settlement. It is our contention that energy efficiency is a subset of energy conservation. I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, with some of the technical detail on that, if it would be helpful. The settlement provides for the Assembly and Welsh Government to have powers on energy efficiency, except via the use of regulation or prohibition. It is not as if there is no power in relation to energy-efficiency; it is just in relation to regulation or prohibition. For example, it would allow schemes to advertise energy-efficiency measures—I think that is probably something the Welsh Government already do, although I stand to be corrected on this.
The reservation in this amendment, however, covers home and business energy-efficiency measures that are imposed by regulation, and so have been implemented by, or under, legislation or equivalents, such as licence conditions imposed on gas and electricity suppliers. Having separate energy-efficiency obligations for England and Wales would be likely to increase the complexity and costs for organisations involved in delivering the obligations, with an impact on consumer bills. That is something the Government cannot sanction and, on that basis, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
I thank the Minister. I find it quite odd when, in one breath, there is a suggestion that we need to meet decarbonisation targets and yet there is an understanding that climate change targets also have to be met at local levels. I think the Welsh Government have targets on that. I do not think you can have it both ways. On grid and infrastructure, of course there is a recognition that there needs to be a UK grid and infrastructure, but I contend that that does not make sense in terms of local heat networks. I would be very interested to see a little more detail on what the Minister suggests in relation to energy conservation, but the fact that energy efficiency is already largely devolved is perhaps something that has not been recognised in the way we had hoped. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these issues relating to transport. I turn first to Amendment 57A, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. Section E1 of new Schedule 7A lists the road transport powers that are reserved. Amendment 57A would give the Welsh Government responsibility over driver training, testing and certification. The words “including training, testing and certification” are intended to clarify further what is meant by driver licensing, which is an exception to the Assembly’s competence under the current devolution settlement. It is not intended to modify the Assembly’s current competence; I can confirm that and it will of course appear on the record. It is important for business and road safety for there to be a consistent approach across Great Britain. It would be impractical and costly for the transport industry to follow different rules on how drivers should learn to drive and have a different driving test from the rest of the country. I do not think the noble Baroness was suggesting that. Moreover, road safety is reinforced by all road users having to observe the same rules so that everyone is able to fully understand the consequences of not observing those rules.
Amendment 57B, as tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, would except the registration and regulation of bus services from the road transport reservation. The Welsh Government already have the ability to determine a number of aspects of bus policy including concessionary fares, smart ticketing and the provision of subsidies. The devolution of the registration of local bus services—a St David’s Day commitment—is already provided for in the Bill and will complement the Assembly’s existing powers. Welsh Ministers will have the power to legislate in respect of bus franchising, quality contracts and quality partnerships. I will write to the noble Baroness more specifically on some of the exceptions and issues that she raised. I am sure she realises that one or two of those were fairly technical. I do not have the information to hand.
Amendment 97 will not be moved, as I understand it, but I will refer to it briefly— notwithstanding that I think the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said that to confirm his understanding. Perhaps I could turn first to Amendment 58, which was spoken to by the noble Lord, and seeks to extend the legislative competence of the Assembly in relation to railway services to include the Wales and Borders rail franchise. It is not clear what the intended geographical scope of these powers would be, nor what particular functions potentially relevant to the procurement and operation of the franchise the Assembly would have competence over. This is somewhat like the issue relating to water; at issue is that the railway line is partly in England and partly in Wales. On railway services, the Assembly currently has legislative competence only in respect of financial assistance relating to railway services, subject to limited exceptions in relation to the carriage of goods, railway administration orders and compensation of passenger service operators for public service obligations, under EU Regulation 1370/2007.
Extending the Assembly’s legislative competence in relation to the provision of railway services was not recommended by the Silk commission and so was not considered in the St David’s Day process. The Bill therefore seeks to preserve the existing devolution settlement in relation to legislative competence for railway services. It may also be helpful if I confirm that an amendment to the Assembly’s legislative competence is not necessary to give effect to our agreement with the Welsh Government to take forward the devolution of executive franchising functions for Welsh services to Welsh Ministers.
Amendments 59 and 60, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, seek to extend the Welsh Assembly’s legislative competence in relation to rail infrastructure in Wales and the specification and funding of Network Rail’s operations in Wales. As he will no doubt be aware, the Silk commission recommended the transfer of executive functions in relation to the specification and funding of Network Rail’s operations in Wales. This recommendation was considered as part of the St David’s Day process but there was no political consensus to take it forward. The Government do not intend to revisit this issue, given those discussions. I can however assure the Committee that the Department for Transport continues to liaise closely with the Welsh Government on the specification and funding of Network Rail’s operations in England and Wales for each five-year railway control period, to ensure that requirements in Wales for increased capacity on the network are reflected. The Government also welcome the significant investments made by the Welsh Government in the rail network in Wales to support the Welsh economy. These complement the significant investments in the strategic capacity of the England and Wales rail network that have been, and will continue to be, made by the UK Government that benefit Wales.
Amendment 70, which was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, seeks to remove planning in relation to railways in Wales from the list of reservations. The underlying issue is the interpretation of the current devolution settlement set out in the Government of Wales Act 2006. The UK Government and the Welsh Government interpret the extent of current devolved competence in relation to this issue differently. This again emphasises the lack of clarity that exists under the current devolution settlement. It also points to the need to ensure that the Bill removes any uncertainty and provides clarity going forward. Establishing a clear boundary between what is devolved and what is reserved is, of course, a key objective of this Bill. However, Amendment 70, without further clarification, has the potential to introduce further uncertainty to the devolution boundary by creating a conflict with the “railway services” reservation in Section E2 of new Schedule 7A. As such, we need to be able fully to consider the issue and the most appropriate approach to adopt.
However, I am aware that the Assembly has already exercised competence in this area, as referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, under the Planning (Wales) Act 2015. In the circumstances, I therefore propose to take this issue away for detailed consideration and to return to the House and set out the Government’s position on Report. With that assurance, I hope the noble Baroness will not press the amendment.
Amendment 109, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, seeks to press the UK Government to a decision on a matter they committed to consider in the St David’s Day Command Paper. That matter is whether to legislate for Wales in a manner similar to provision in the Scotland Act 2016 regarding the powers of Scottish Ministers, as committed to in the Smith commission agreement, to enable Welsh Ministers to invite United Kingdom public sector operators to bid for rail franchises for which they are the responsible franchising authority. I say in parenthesis that, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State set out in other place, the Railways Act does not prevent not-for-profit bidding for franchises but prevents public sector bidders.
I recognise that the Welsh Government are keen to have such flexibility, in addition to that available under current legislation, to encourage bids from other sector organisations. The Government consider it would be premature to reach a decision on this matter in advance of final agreement with the Welsh Government on the terms for future devolution of executive franchising functions. At present, Welsh Ministers do not have any statutory powers to procure rail franchises. The effect of the proposed amendment would be to confer discretion to allow public sector bidders for franchises consisting of, or containing, Wales-only services on the Secretary of State. This would be inconsistent with the United Kingdom Government’s policy not to allow UK public sector operators to bid for rail franchises.
As the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, indicated, I am committing to the progress made between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government in preparing for the transfer of franchising functions to Welsh Ministers. That is something we are seeking to do and are committed to do. As part of reaching final agreement, we will be able to reach a decision on the issue raised by this amendment regarding Welsh Ministers’ ability to invite bids from public sector operators in future procurements.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
Can the Minister give us a timetable for when those decisions will be made? Will it be before Report or is it an issue that will be resolved after the Bill has left this House?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, to some extent I am in the hands of noble Lords as to when we complete Committee stage—a subtle hint if ever there were one. I hope and intend that we should be in a position to bring this forward on Report, but certainly during the passage of the Bill. I hope it will be before Report.
Amendments 83A, 83B, 119C, 119D, 119E and 119F amend Clause 27 and Schedule 5 so that all the Minister of the Crown powers in Sections 6, 6A and 6B of the Transport Act 1985 are transferred to Welsh Ministers by the Bill, which I am sure noble Lords will welcome.
As a result of the complexities involved in the traffic commissioner being a reserved body but exercising some devolved functions, the original clause transferred the regulation-making powers in Sections 6 and 7 of the Transport Act 1985 that related to the traffic commissioner. This was to provide clarity in the Bill, with the remaining powers to be transferred via a subsequent transfer of functions order. Following discussions with the Welsh Government, we have agreed to transfer all the regulation-making powers relating to the registration of local bus services in Section 6, 6A and 6B of the Transport Act 1985 in the Bill.
On the basis of that information and the assurances and responses I have given, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I fear that the longer I sit here and listen to the detailed debates, the less confidence I have that the Bill will provide the certainty that we on all sides believe should be provided.
On the specific issues, devolution is the name of the game in railways at the moment. I regret that that rule does not apparently apply to Wales in the fullest sense. I entirely accept that railway services in Wales do not run neatly within the country only. That is a specific challenge. I fear that there is a failure here to provide sufficient incentives to the Welsh Government to invest in the railway system in Wales because they are not being given sufficient control over it.
In relation to Amendment 57A, I agree with the Minister that it is necessary to have a consistent approach to road safety across the country, not least because the road along the border weaves in and out of the border so any other approach would not be workable. In the light of the Minister’s comments, I shall withdraw my amendment, but I ask him to consider clarification of the Assembly’s powers on training in road safety matters because I fear that, as written, the Bill could be taken by the Assembly and the Welsh Government to mean that they do not have to involve themselves in it any more, and that would not be an appropriate result. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Wales Bill
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth ExcerptsTuesday 15th November 2016
(7 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)
My Lords, I support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Hain. The Welsh public sector workforce is the linchpin in ensuring that Welsh public sector authorities carry out their functions and provide services to the public. There is a well-recognised link between good employment practices and industrial relations within authorities and contractors and the quality of the services they provide to the public.
Since devolution, the Welsh Government have led with a distinct vision for public services, rooted in the principles of social partnership. These principles have guided the development of public service delivery in Wales, which is now distinct from that of England. As many noble Lords have noted, this amendment would not undermine the shared framework and protections in respect of employment and industrial relations, but would allow the Assembly to augment these where appropriate to support the effective delivery of devolved public services by Welsh public authorities. I ask the Minister how he thinks people based in London can have the first inkling of what is happening in our schools and hospitals, which are devolved.
For devolution to be meaningful, the Welsh Government must be able to continue to pursue social partnership, defining the relationship between public service employers and employees with integrity, transparency and trust. In proposing this reservation, the UK Government are seeking to divorce the terms of employment and industrial relations in public services from the delivery of those services. The reservation will fundamentally weaken the existing powers of the Government of Wales Act and will prevent Welsh Ministers exercising their legitimate functions prescribed by the Bill on public services. We know this because a leaked letter from the government legal opinion suggested that we currently have the rights over these powers.
I echo the point made by my noble friend Lord Murphy: let us avoid a future reference to the Supreme Court. This was supposed to be the final full stop in the whole legislative framework for the devolution settlement for Wales. If this goes through, I assure your Lordships that this will be not the full stop but the beginning of another battle.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who participated in the debate on this part of the Bill concerning employment law. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for his very kind words in opening the debate.
To put this in perspective, I think it is common ground between the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and I that employment and industrial relations law is a reserved area. I am not sure that that view is shared by the noble Baroness. She seemed to be suggesting that somehow our reservation meant the end of civilisation as we knew it. It is fundamental to the country that we live in. The UK Government believe that the underlying legislative framework concerning rights and responsibilities in the workplace must be reserved. I believe as much as anyone does in good employment practice. I worked in the public sector in Wales before I went into the Assembly. I was a member of a trade union. I do not think I can still be a member of that trade union or I would be. It is imperative that we have good employment law and good industrial relations. I would not contest this. This is a very important area, but we want a simple, unified system in Great Britain. As the noble Lord acknowledged, this is not something that is devolved to Scotland. It was not considered by the Smith commission or the Silk commission and it was not part of the St David’s Day process.
The system we have allows workers to be clear on their rights, whether they are in the public sector or the private sector, in England or in Wales. This is a fundamental principle and I cannot accept that the law underpinning the terms and conditions of public sector workers should be different from the law that underpins the rights of other workers. Whether that leads to better rights, more rights or worse rights, it seems fundamentally wrong. It is important to have common minimum standards which apply to all workers throughout Great Britain to minimise uncertainty and cost for both workers and employers. This is a matter of employment law; it is not about public service delivery.
Furthermore, it seems clear to me that if public sector employers in Wales, which would include the Welsh Government and public sector authorities, want to grant more favourable wages or more holidays then they are able to do so. They can do that presently and there is no question of it being taken back. Also, the judgment on the agricultural wages Act in the Supreme Court is an exception to the reservation. There is no question of that being clawed back as that specific piece of law remains.
If we had a diversified system of rights, workers might be reluctant to pursue the best progression opportunities in their organisation because they could get better rights in the private sector or the public sector—one or the other. They may find it more difficult to undertake collective bargaining and make their voice heard in isolation from colleagues in similar roles in Wales or the rest of Britain. I certainly believe in having strong industrial rights and strong employment rights—and obligations, too—but this has to be unified. As I said, both the Silk and Smith commissions came down in favour of a single employment regime, such as this, and there is nothing to prevent the Welsh Government or devolved public authorities agreeing specific arrangements with their staff, provided that they meet the requirements of employment and industrial relations legislation which apply across Great Britain.
The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, suggested that this amendment did not concern strikes. I am sure that I heard the noble Lord, Lord Hain, say that it related to altering the threshold, so it is about strikes and, as drafted, would certainly include the possibility of doing that. The Government could not sign up to that, nor to different rights on check-off or facility time. The rights should by all means be generous, but they should be unified across the country. I do not see that insisting on this is somehow apocalyptic in the way that some noble Lords suggested. The reservation of employment law ensures that there is a minimum floor of rights to offer workers key protections. At the same time, it recognises that each workplace is unique by allowing employers to provide additional pay or holidays in the public or private sector, if they want to do so.
Amendment 74 was put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, for the Liberal Democrats, and I have added my name to it for the Government. I am not sure whether that makes it an additional government amendment, but we are in agreement with removing the reservation relating to teachers’ pay. This has been a key priority for the Welsh Government and we are very happy to support this amendment. We have been listening on teachers’ pay and are content to support the noble Baroness’s amendment.
In relation to employment law, because we see specific difficulties regarding different rights in the public sector, some of which relate to the calling of strikes but do not affect pay and holidays—which the public sector can negotiate quite separately, as it does now—I urge the noble Lord, Lord Hain, to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hain
My Lords, can I express my severe disappointment at the change of tone in the Minister’s delivery? The rest of his responses to the amendments moved by my noble friends have been genuinely positive. He has conceded where he could and stood his ground where he could, but within the framework of the devolution settlement in which he believes, as I do. On this amendment, I do not mean to sound insulting, but the way that he came across was, I felt, like he was reading out a prepared text—no doubt supplied by the Wales Office in Whitehall—that simply does not recognise the reality of this amendment.
The noble Baroness, Lady Finn, said along with the Minister that there would be the creation of a two-tier system of employment rights. How is that possible, when the 17 Acts and regulations which are already listed as reserved matters on pages 68 and 69 of the Bill would remain reserved under the terms of this amendment? How is it possible that we would create a two-tier system of employment rights when all the employment rights would remain reserved? We are discussing the operation of industrial relations practice in Welsh public services, not in the Welsh private sector. There is no exception provided for the Welsh private sector, which is the largest area of employment in Wales. The amendment is simply about devolved public services and reserved matters and many others matters covering all the issues. I can read them out to remind the Minister, but they are there.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
The amendment would insert:
“Terms and conditions of employment and industrial relations in Welsh public authorities and services”,
so the amendment is not just about industrial relations.
“Terms and conditions of employment”,
is also contained in the amendment.
Lord Hain
I understand that. I understand my own amendment. It refers to public services.
The Minister is saying that there should be common standards. Wales already has entirely differently configured public services. That is the beauty of devolution. There is a learning experience between the different constituent parts of the United Kingdom about where best practice occurs. In some areas, it is in Wales. We have not had a doctors’ strike. I do not think we have had the same teachers’ disputes. We have not had the same local government disputes. We have not had the same firefighter disputes. Why is that? It is because these are devolved public areas run in a different way in Wales, with a different system of employee/employer relations provided for—we believed until this Bill tried to overturn the provisions of the Supreme Court ruling—in the devolution settlement. I echo the great eloquence and legal authority of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, in saying that this is massive diminution—to use his phrase—of the authority of Wales. Indeed, it is a direct challenge to the Supreme Court, where it may well end up. As my noble friend Lord Murphy said, I do not think that is where the Minister wants to be in his private view of the future, even if that is where he is going to end up if he sticks to this stance.
The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, underlined that the Supreme Court caught the UK Government by surprise. She was very frank about that. It perhaps even caught me by surprise by interpreting the devolution settlement in the way that it did in a very convincing way. I hope that the Minister recognises that he is now seeking to undermine that.
I remind the House of what my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely said; she said that the terms of the Bill will prevent Welsh Government Ministers exercising their legitimate functions in public services in how they treat their employees and how they operate their industrial relations from training time to facility time to all the matters that are essential to running public services in Wales effectively.
My legal advice is that the Minister’s position is flawed. He may deploy government lawyers to contest that, and then we will see in the courts. We will have the Wales TUC and the Welsh Government and, I suspect, all the people of Wales right behind them challenging the UK Government’s position.
The question I shall conclude on is: are public services in Wales devolved or not—not just the policies, but the delivery, which depends on employees and the relationships between employees in the public sector and their managers being very good? That requires good industrial relations, and Wales has been able to achieve that. Wales would continue to be able to achieve it under the devolution settlement if this amendment were accepted.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, I greatly appreciate the kind and generous words of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, on S4C. I support the amendment completely, but there is a possible compromise, if I may be so bold as to suggest it. Many months ago, when the question of the BBC charter was mentioned, I asked the Government whether they would be prepared to have in-built in the charter a guarantee on the adequate financing of S4C as well as on its independence and future. The reply that I received was somewhat anodyne, but I was assured that so great was the affection of Her Majesty’s Government for the Welsh language that I had nothing to fear at all. It may be that that is a compromise that would guarantee effectively the future of S4C, its independence and its finance, and I commend it to the noble Lord.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for moving this amendment on Welsh language broadcasting and other Welsh language media—and I note that that is the exception that is set down. I do not think that it is limited to S4C, as some noble Lords have assumed. It is not. I join other noble Lords in applauding the work of S4C; it is an extraordinarily strong and effective institution that does marvellous work for Wales in relation to the language and more broadly, and it has totemic significance and real significance and generates jobs in the Welsh media sector, which is important.
As the noble Lord said, it is absolutely right that the Silk commission recommended that funding the public expenditure element for S4C should be devolved to the Assembly. It was part of its recommendations but was not taken forward in the St David’s Day proposals: I understand that it was considered in that process but there was no consensus round it. It is also worth noting that as recently as June last year, the Welsh Government said, through Minister Ken Skates, that they could not support the devolution of broadcasting. Admittedly, that was said across the piece but it was the general position.
Where does that leave us? I will try to give an update on the financial commitments made by the Government, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, and other noble Lords. The Government have agreed that funding for S4C—as opposed to Welsh language broadcasting—would be protected in 2016-17 at its current level of £6.8 million. The settlement for Exchequer funding in following years was set out at the 2015 spending review, and in September the BBC confirmed that it will protect licence-fee funding for S4C at £74.5 million until 2022. That is beyond the length of this Parliament, as noble Lords will be aware. The Government then committed to a comprehensive review of S4C in 2017, covering its remit, funding and governance to ensure that the broadcaster can continue to meet the needs of Welsh-speaking audiences in the future. I will endeavour to find out if we have any further details on the process and will write to noble Lords to update them on what the timetable is.
Broadcasting is different from almost any other area of activity in that it is international, national UK and national Wales. I am conscious of the fact that, historically, many people have been quite keen to see S4C’s budget settled in Westminster because they thought it was safer here that it would be in Wales—I had better be careful what I say. I notice a change of tenor in that position. Given that the Welsh Government do not seem to be seeking this, and given that there was no consensus in the St David’s Day process, I will have a look at it. I am very content to discuss this with the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and others to see if there is anything we can do to strengthen the position of S4C and the involvement of the Welsh Government—a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan. I appreciate what the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, has said on the issue of the difficulty of broadcasting. As I said, it is internationalised in many ways so is unique among activities.
I am very conscious of the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, was photocopying “Fireman Sam” scripts at S4C, so spoke with great authority. My first job in life was loading Britvic bottles on a production line. We had very different experiences: the noble Baroness was more clerical and managerial than I was in those heady student days. I appreciate that this is an important area and I will have another look at it and speak to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, to see if there is anything we can do to strengthen this position. I hope that, with that, he will be content to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, which has brought out a number of issues relating to S4C. I am grateful to the Minister for his undertaking to look again at some aspects of this. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“176_ Proceedings and orders under Part 4 or 5 of the Children Act 1989 or otherwise relating to the care or supervision of children.”
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for moving this amendment in relation to the civil registration of births, deaths and places of worship. I have listened carefully to her argument. Civil registration functions, including the registration and administration of births, deaths, marriages, civil partnerships, adoptions and associated functions, and the registration of places of worship, are overseen by the Registrar-General for England and Wales, and the Government do not have plans to devolve any of these functions. Perhaps I may try to explain some of the difficulties that would arise in relation to devolution and answer some of the issues raised by the noble Baroness.
First, the noble Baroness raised the issue of the Welsh language, which is obviously very valid in relation to registration. However, it is already possible to register events in both English and Welsh where the events take place in Wales. The registration Acts, as extended by the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011, the Welsh Language Act 1993 and the Welsh Language Act 1967 enable any person who can speak and understand Welsh to make a bilingual registration. Welsh local authorities, by virtue of their obligations under their Welsh language schemes, should provide registration staff who can speak, write and understand Welsh to accommodate citizens who desire this service.
The current position is that the Places of Worship Registration Act 1855 extends to England and Wales. Amendments 68 and 69 seek to separate civil registration functions by specifically devolving responsibility for the registration of places of worship to the Assembly. There are clear efficiencies in administering the responsibilities across England and Wales, and the inevitable cost of separating after over 150 years would appear to be disproportionate to any wider benefit.
The Registrar-General is an independent statutory officeholder—appointed under Section 1 of the Registration Service Act 1953—who exercises functions through the General Register Office, set up under Section 2 of that Act. As the arrangements are well established, there are significant links to, and dependencies on, the provision of civil registration in a unified system across England and Wales, including the use of a single computer system for all registrations. It works well in its current form and it does not make sense to separate out one element of it. I have not heard of any particular groundswell of support for a change in the law in relation to marriage in Wales. It is, in any case, not a devolved matter, and it is a very complex issue, as one can imagine, with the diverse faiths that we have in this country.
However, I can reassure the noble Baroness on one specific point. Looking at faith and integration in the devolved Administrations, I have already been in contact with the devolved Ministers in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. I have arranged meetings so that we can discuss issues such as this, and I have had a positive response from Minister Carl Sargeant in Wales and from the other Ministers. We will be looking at issues such as this in the devolved forum, although I have to say that the issue of marriage law is not specifically a matter for the Department for Communities and Local Government; it is a matter for the Ministry of Justice.
However, it is a very wide-ranging issue because of the nature of the conduct of marriages. Some faiths’ marriages are recognised automatically if they take place in particular religious buildings—specifically, those of the Church of England, the Church in Wales and the Society of Friends, and synagogues—but that would not be true of other faiths as things stand. At some stage, this whole area probably will be looked at. However, as I say, this is not my specific ministerial responsibility, so I say that without being certain whether it is proposed at the moment. I do not think it is, but no doubt at some stage it will be looked at.
I am happy to discuss this further with the noble Baroness but, as I say, the Government have no plans to devolve this function. Therefore, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
My Lords, I will be very brief. I am not quite convinced by the argument that the separation would not lead to efficiency and cost savings—we could say that about almost all devolved areas of policy. The whole point here is that you need to respond to local needs. I am very happy to hear that the Minister has initiated the devolved forum to look at this, and I look forward to hearing more about that. It would perhaps be an idea for us to discuss this further. It is just another one of those things for which I can think of no good reason to retain it nationally. I have not been convinced that there is a good reason and so we will just have to agree to differ on that point. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
My Lords, in warmly endorsing the case made by my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely on the three amendments in this group, I shall add a word on Amendment 73 concerning the regulation of the design and construction of buildings. I shall illustrate why it would be unfortunate if this reservation were to be retained and why my noble friend is right to propose that this should be devolved. We have seen extraordinary vagaries in building regulation policy on the part of the Government of the United Kingdom. For example, the Government committed themselves to a requirement that all new homes should be designed to be lifetime homes by, I think, 2013. That was a commitment made in 2008, but when the moment came in 2013 and it had not been met, when the change to the building regulations was announced in 2015, the lifetime homes criteria were so diluted as to be rendered almost useless and ineffectual.
Let me explain what this is all about. Originally the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and subsequently the Habinteg Housing Association developed 16 design criteria to ensure that the design and construction of new homes is such that they can be easily adapted at minimal cost to become more accessible to people as their lives go on, as they become older or as they become disabled. It makes eminently good sense economically and socially, yet we have seen a reneging on the commitment that had previously been made. The same has happened with another commitment by government to require that new homes should be designed and constructed so as to be carbon neutral; this was to be achieved by 2016. It was hailed as a very progressive and excellent policy in the interests of the environment, but again in the same set of announcements in 2015 the Government reneged on the commitment, and of course it was a turning point that was deplored by everyone who cares about the environment. So what we have seen is a set of decisions on housing design made in Whitehall and at Westminster which have been detrimental to the environment, the construction industry, the architectural profession and surveyors, and detrimental to the interests of disabled and elderly people, all of which will add costs to social services and the health service because the longer you can keep people in their own homes, the better.
I do not want to elaborate on or labour the point any further except simply to say that whereas it is clearly the right of the Government of the United Kingdom, but regrettable when they use it, to march people up the hill and down again and to do these about-turns on policy, and to retrogress in terms of social and environmental policy, I cannot see why these processes should be inflicted on Wales. If Wales wishes to pursue a project to create carbon-free homes and build lifetime homes for the people of Wales, why on earth should it not be entitled to do so? This is just an instance of where I think it would be greatly to the detriment of Wales if the Government insist with the rigour they are applying at present on denying Wales sensible discretion on matters that on any reasonable basis could well be devolved and where we have actually seen the practical effect of policy as made in London being seriously detrimental.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, for proposing these amendments.
Amendment 71 would devolve to the Assembly competence to legislate for how infrastructure funding should be collected in relation to development. This is currently accomplished through the community infrastructure levy, which applies across England and Wales, and the mechanisms we use to raise funding for infrastructure to support development are undoubtedly important. I appreciate the points made by the noble Baroness and I am aware of the issues raised on the matter in the other place. In addition, the Welsh Government have argued persuasively in discussions with the UK Government that the community infrastructure levy should be devolved. I can therefore confirm that, as the Secretary of State announced on 31 October, we are content to devolve competence over the levy to the Assembly and I expect to table a government amendment on Report to achieve this. I hope that that is reassuring to noble Lords.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, made some interesting points, when speaking to Amendment 72, about why she believes that the compulsory purchase law in its entirety should come within the legislative competence of the National Assembly and not be reserved to the United Kingdom Parliament. The debate has highlighted the lack of clarity that exists in the current devolution settlement. As compulsory purchase is a so-called “silent subject”, the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government have formed different views on the extent of the Assembly’s legislative competence in this area.
This reservation has been the subject of detailed and productive discussions between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government. The United Kingdom Government consider that legislating on the general rules and framework of the compulsory purchase system, such as the compensation regime in the Land Compensation Acts, falls outside the Assembly’s current legislative competence. However, we accept there are arguments that the Assembly could confer or modify powers in legislation for bodies to acquire land by compulsion for devolved subjects. These would include powers for local authorities to acquire land for housing, planning or education purposes, among others.
I assure the noble Baroness that discussions between the two Governments on this reservation are at an advanced stage and appear to be going well. Discussions are fruitful. I would therefore like to reflect further on her points as the Government conclude their consideration of the extent of this reservation.
Amendment 73, also tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, seeks to remove the reservation concerning building standards and building regulations. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, also spoke with effect on this. Before responding to the amendment, I note that, through earlier transfer of functions orders and Clause 47 of the Bill, Welsh Ministers will have powers to make building regulations in respect of almost all buildings in Wales. There will now be parity in England and Wales as to buildings for which building regulations may be made by the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers respectively. As drafted, the noble Baroness’s amendment goes considerably wider than this to devolve competence to the Assembly over building standards. I am aware that this devolution is being sought by the Welsh Government. There are some genuinely difficult issues here in terms of organisations currently exempted from the application of building standards in England and Wales. I am none the less happy to reflect on this further, with a view to returning to it on Report.
I hope I have been able to provide reassurance to the noble Baroness and I ask her not to press her amendments.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
My Lords, things are getting much better. We have had three positive replies. I thank the Minister for his constructive approach on those issues. We look forward to working with him much more closely on them in the next few weeks, and to new amendments coming, we hope, on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for moving Amendment 83, which seeks to assign a share of the VAT revenues generated in Wales to the Welsh Government in the same manner that a share of VAT raised in Scotland will be assigned to the Scottish Government following the Smith commission agreement, given effect through the Scotland Act 2016. In parenthesis, I may be wrong but I do not think that Scotland has the right to vary the rate, so it is possible to protect that element.
It is important to understand the purpose of VAT assignment, which is to increase the link between the Scottish Government’s policy decisions and their budget, and thereby further increase their accountability and give them power for a purpose. While assignment does not, as I said, enable the Scottish Government to change VAT policy in Scotland, they have a wide range of policy levers at their disposal which can affect the performance of the Scottish economy and can therefore impact VAT revenues in Scotland. For example, the Scottish Government’s approach to skills, planning, housing and transport all have an effect on the performance of the economy and therefore on VAT—as, of course, can their approach to taxation. The impact of these decisions on the Scottish economy, and in particular on VAT revenues, will in the future feed through into the Scottish Government’s funding.
Of course, these arguments can also be made in relation to Wales. The Welsh Government have a similar range of economic policy levers and one of the Government’s key aims is to increase their accountability and to give them power for a purpose. However, I share some of the caution urged by the noble Lords, Lord Hain and Lord Rowlands, and by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely. The independent, cross-party Silk commission gave full consideration to the case for assigning a share of the VAT receipts generated in Wales and, while it recognised some of the arguments I have set out, it ultimately recommended against VAT assignment in Wales. Unlike in Scotland, there is therefore no clear consensus of support for the proposition. Our focus at this time should be to work with the Welsh Government to implement the Wales Act 2014 and to look at the main thrust of this legislation and take it forward on that basis. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
“( ) In section 43 (provisions with respect to loans made by Minister)—( ) after subsection (1) insert— “(1A) Any loans which the Welsh Ministers make under section 11 of this Act shall be repaid to them at such times and by such methods, and interest thereon shall be paid to them at such rates and at such times, as they may from time to time direct.”;( ) after subsection (2) insert—“(2A) Such sums as are necessary to enable the Welsh Ministers to make loans under section 11 of this Act may be issued to them out of the Welsh Consolidated Fund.”;( ) after subsection (4) insert—“(4A) Any sums received by the Welsh Ministers under subsection (1A) of this section shall be paid into the Welsh Consolidated Fund.”;( ) after subsection (5) insert—“(6) The Welsh Ministers shall, as respects each financial year, prepare an account of sums issued to them under this section and of the sums to be paid into the Welsh Consolidated Fund under subsection (4A) and of the disposal by them of those sums respectively, and send it to the Auditor General for Wales not later than the end of November following the year; and the Auditor General for Wales shall examine, certify and report on the account and lay copies of it, together with his report, before the National Assembly for Wales.”;( ) in the heading, at the end insert “or the Welsh Ministers”.”
Baroness Morgan of Ely
My Lords, I agree with the case eloquently put by the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, and others. A reduction in air passenger duty would help air passengers, support growth and jobs and cut costs for businesses. I urge the Minister to support this amendment.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in this debate on air passenger duty, specifically the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, who has served with distinction in so many areas of public life in Wales, not least in relation to Cardiff Airport. His very good work is being carried on by Roger Lewis.
As we committed to in the 2015 St David’s Day agreement, the Government have considered the case and options for devolving APD to the Assembly, informed by consideration of the impact this would have on regional airports in England, as they happen to be; as things stand, Wales has only the one international airport, in Cardiff.
It is clear from the debate that noble Lords are aware that Cardiff and Bristol airports are about an hour apart, and the population density of the border area there means that more than 4 million people live in the overlapping catchment areas of the two airports. I must take issue with the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, with whom I am normally in agreement as she is normally very fair: the distance from Cardiff and Glasgow airports to the English border is not the relevant one. There is no international airport in Berwick-upon-Tweed. It is a long while before you get to an international airport, which is Newcastle.
Baroness Randerson
I understand that difference, but anyone who can get from Cardiff Airport to Bristol Airport in an hour is not obeying the speed limit.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I think the last time I made that journey was with the noble Lord, Lord German, who was driving, but we will gloss over that.
As noble Lords will be aware, those airports are close together, although I accept that it is not always an easy journey, because of the build-up of traffic. However, the nature of the England-Wales border has led to a number of English regional airports raising serious and legitimate concerns about lower APD rates in Wales. As my noble friend Lord Hunt suggested, the rates could go up as well as down; we need to realise that they would not necessarily go down, at least not all the while.
The Government must ensure that devolution does not lead to undue market distortion. Currently we are bound by the state aid rules of the European Union, in any event, which was something that the Silk commission considered long and hard in looking at this issue. I do not have the Silk report in front of me, but I seem to remember that we recommended the devolution of tax on long-haul routes, not overall. It is true that we looked at the analogy of Northern Ireland—which is different because people there have the option of going to Dublin which, being in a different member state, could vary the rates anyway—and we were persuaded just in relation to long haul. I think I am right in saying that no long-haul flights currently take place from Cardiff; I appreciate that that that could make a difference. I am looking at the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe.
Lord Rowe-Beddoe
There are long-distance flights and they are being negotiated all the time. They go on as charter flights right through the year, so there are long-distance flights. While I am on my feet, may I say that your commission recommended that long haul be devolved? I apologise to the noble Lord, but that was your position.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I am grateful for the clarification on the existing charter flights. I am aware of our recommendation for long haul, although the scope of the amendment is probably broader.
As I said, the position in Scotland is very different because the airports are a long way from the next international airports, so the competition and fairness argument cannot apply. The United Kingdom Government have to look at these things in the context of fairness, and it would genuinely not be fair to an airport in England, which is unable to vary the rates, to compete with an airport that could. Noble Lords must surely see that point.
The point made by my noble friend Lord Hunt, speaking with a north Walian voice, was that this tax, if we were to adopt it, would not help the people of north Wales, for whom the nearest international airport would be Manchester or Liverpool; or, indeed, the people of mid-Wales, for whom it would be Birmingham —I am not sure that this is a plea for Birmingham, but I thought I would get in before it.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I take issue with that. We have always wanted to develop our connectivity in Wales. There have been attempts to use the Broughton airstrip from time to time; I have flown on a regular service from Broughton to Cardiff in the past, and a very good service it was. Unfortunately, it did not pay.
If it were possible to reduce air passenger duty, Broughton would make a very good place from which to start flights, and I am sure it would be very popular in north Wales. Liverpool and Manchester are closer than Cardiff and Bristol. Edinburgh and Glasgow are closer than Cardiff and Bristol. They do not complain; they compete.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
The point being, my Lords, that they are either, in the case of Glasgow and Edinburgh, both able to vary the rates or, in the case of Liverpool and Manchester, both unable to vary them, so they are on an even playing field, which would not be the case between Cardiff and, for example, Bristol. The noble Lord talks about the possibility of Broughton, but that would not give rise to long-haul flights. If noble Lords will allow me to go down memory lane, I remember going out on the roadshow with the Silk commission, and this was not a popular suggestion in north Wales. I remember people in the audience across the political divide saying that this would be a tax that would help people in south Wales, not people in north Wales.
Lord Wigley
The Minister made references to north Wales. I hope that he is not starting to play the old game of playing north against south, because it is to the benefit of the whole of Wales if the Welsh economy flourishes. It is essential that we use these levers to benefit Cardiff and the economy around there. If it has benefits in terms of tourism, that is a benefit to the whole of Wales. We have a number of small airports around Wales. The service from Cardiff up to Valley, for example, is a valuable one. We have an airport in Caernarfon and other airports. What is essential is that we get a coherent policy to work for the whole of Wales and not to have it happen, as is happening again tonight and happened in the House of Commons, that we play the hand for the sake of English airports at the expense of Cardiff Airport and the strategy of the Welsh Government.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, that is an unfair suggestion. I am certainly not playing north Wales against south Wales—I am informing noble Lords of what happened when we were out on the road. There is only one international airport in Wales. If we are talking about APD in relation to long-haul flights, that means only Cardiff in relation to Wales, as things stand; that is undoubtedly the case. I am the first person to stand up for Wales, as I hope that the noble Lord will accept, but we cannot do that in isolation from what is happening in the rest of the country. If the measure being talked about is unfair, I am afraid that it will not see the light of day in the context of looking at what is fair for the United Kingdom. Yes, we must stick up for Wales, but it has to be done in the context of fairness.
I shall progress the argument a little to see if there are other things that we can be doing. As I have said, we do not want to look at the position of market distortions, but we want to help Cardiff Airport if we can. We looked at a review of this to see whether it would be possible to devolve APD to Wales while supporting English regional airports against the impacts of reduced APD. However, there are no obvious options that could mitigate against the impacts on regional airports elsewhere, if devolving the tax to the Assembly meant that Bristol could face 25% fewer passengers. That is significant. I shall ensure that I circulate full details of our review into these options to noble Lords so they can see it.
I hope that noble Lords will accept that this is not a desire not to do what is best for Wales, but a desire to do what is best for Wales while recognising that we cannot fail to be fair to the rest of the country. If that happens in this case to be England, I make no apologies for that. Bristol Airport does not have the ability to vary APD, and we cannot do that in the context of the Bill.
I have listened carefully to the debate, and I shall circulate the details of the review, when we had a look to see if there was anything that we could do. There was a long debate in the Silk commission, and it was not along party-political lines; it was generally divided on the issue of what we could do for Wales, partly because of fairness and partly because of the issue that still exists about state aid and the fear of action in relation to that—valid action. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. As I say, I shall circulate details of the review that we had to see whether there was anything that we could realistically do to help Wales—and, in this context, that means Cardiff Airport.
Lord Rowe-Beddoe
I thank the Minister for his response and thank all noble Lords and noble Baronesses who have participated in this short debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who mentioned 102 kilometres. It is an important number because under current EU regulations 100 kilometres has associations with state aid, which the Minister brought up. In Cardiff we have been fighting allegations about state aid—successfully, I am happy to say. I am also very pleased that the elephant in the room was mentioned, not by me but by everybody else. Yes, of course it is Bristol—and this is a pure political gesture. We know it and feel it in ourselves. If we look at the constituency make-up around the city of Bristol and in the south-west, we will understand why. However, I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, disagrees with me for the first time—or I disagree with him.
I will come back on just two points. Cardiff is our international airport, whether it is situated in Ceredigion or in south Wales. We cannot have them all over Wales. We can put up little airports and support ones like Valley and Broughton so we can use them, but Cardiff is our international airport. The status of long-haul flights is under heavy negotiation at the moment and regular routes will be announced soon.
I say to my noble friend Lord Hunt that there is a little group called the Regional and Business Airports Group which represents 32 regional airports in the United Kingdom. In September 2015, it wrote a discussion paper, in which it advocated on behalf of the regional airports in the United Kingdom the devolution of this,
“market distorting tax which impacts far more heavily on smaller airports than larger ones”.
That is quite an interesting document—it was addressed to the energy and transport tax team—and perhaps the Minister could take a look at it.
I thank all noble Lords. It is late at night and I will withdraw the amendment, but I will have to come back at some stage.
“Financial assistance for inland waterway and sea freight
(1) Section 272 of the Transport Act 2000 (financial assistance for inland waterway and sea freight) is amended as follows.(2) For subsection (4) substitute—“(4) So far as it relates to inland waterways that are wholly in Wales, the power conferred by this section is a power of the Welsh Ministers.(4A) So far as it relates to— (a) the carriage of goods by an inland waterway that is partly in Wales, or(b) the carriage of goods by sea where the carriage concerned is wholly or partly by sea adjacent to Wales,the power conferred by this section may be exercised concurrently or jointly by the Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers.”(3) For subsection (6) substitute—“(6) In this section—“inland waterway” includes both a natural and an artificial inland waterway;“sea adjacent to Wales” means the sea adjacent to Wales out as far as the seaward boundary of the territorial sea.(7) An order under section 158(3) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 determining, or making provision for determining, any boundary between waters which are to be treated as parts of the sea adjacent to Wales and those which are not applies for the purposes of the definition of “sea adjacent to Wales” in this section as it applies for the purposes of the definition of “Wales” in that Act.””
Wales Bill
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth ExcerptsMonday 7th November 2016
(7 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on the amendment. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for moving it.
To fund the step change needed to achieve 3 million apprenticeship starts across the country by 2020 and to improve their quality, the Government are introducing an apprenticeship levy so that spending on apprenticeships will be double the level that it was in 2010-11 in cash terms. I think that that is something that noble Lords across the House will welcome. I recognise that some employers have concerns over the design of the levy. Following the announcement at the summer Budget of 2015, the Government consulted on its design; the consultation that took place during the autumn of that year revealed overwhelming support for the levy to be as simple as possible to operate across the United Kingdom. For this reason, it was decided that the apprenticeship levy would be based on the UK-wide definition of earnings as used for class 1 secondary employer national insurance contributions. Not only is the definition one that employers are familiar with but it is applied consistently to employers wherever they operate within the United Kingdom’s single market and is information they readily have available in their payroll. The definition also avoids considerable practical difficulties that would arise if there were different rates and thresholds of the apprenticeship levy in different parts of the United Kingdom, which appears to be the purpose of this amendment—or at least a consequence of it. However, because the charge is on the employer, it would be necessary to determine how such a system would operate for organisations working across borders or with plants in different parts of the country, such as Toyota. This would create additional and significant administrative burdens for businesses that we believe are best avoided.
That said, I can recognise the points that are being made by the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Rowlands, and the noble Baroness, Lady Gale. I thank her for her comments. It is certainly the intention for work between the Treasury and the Welsh Government to continue, as she suggested. Policy on apprenticeships is devolved to the Welsh Government; once there has been a discussion on how we ensure that Wales has a fair share of the money, it does not necessarily follow that it will be Barnettised. I rather suspect that it will not, and presumably they will look at the number of employees in different parts of the country. I am not sure that Barnett would present the right answer. But once it has been done, it is a matter for the devolved Governments of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales as to how they operate the apprenticeship policy. They could presumably add more money in if they wanted to, or put in a smaller amount—that is a matter for them.
I have heard the contributions to this debate, and I understand that noble Lords want to ensure that Wales’s corner is being protected; I do too. I will ensure that a note is sent round to noble Lords who have participated in the debate so that they can see the state of play as things stand at the moment.
Lord Rowlands
My understanding is that the way it is going to be delivered in England is through this so-called digital voucher. First, can the Minister confirm that that is the case? Secondly, is it also the case that Wales and other Administrations have all rejected that process? If it is not going to be that, what will the process be by which Welsh companies can claim on the levy?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
The noble Lord is right in the sense that the essence of devolution is that if the policy is devolved to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales it is a matter for those Administrations as to how the apprenticeship policy is rolled out. The apprenticeship levy discussion will be happening between the Treasury and the devolved Administrations. I will get noble Lords an update on how that is progressing. It will then be for them to decide how the money is spent. The discussion on how the cake is being divided up will be led by the Treasury with the devolved Administrations. That is my understanding of how it will operate.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I will press the Minister further on this. Does he accept that, for the Welsh Government—or, for that matter, the Scottish or Northern Ireland Governments—to roll this out they need to know how much money they are getting; the mechanism for delivering it; the timing of it and the conditions that may be placed on it? It is now over 12 months since this thing was kicked off. Without knowing those details they cannot, with all the good will in the world, meet what is required. Inevitably, companies in Wales are going to be in an inferior position to those in England. Will the Minister also clarify the position of those who are employing people across the border: companies which may be based in England but employing in Wales, or vice versa?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, this was precisely the point that I was dealing with. As I said, I will get a note round about how the discussion is going on how the policy will be rolled out in terms of the amount of money that will be given to the devolved Administrations. The discussion will go on at that level on how that is being sorted out. As I understand it, the basis on which the policy is rolled out is that the place of employment will be where the policy applies. If a business is in Wales it will be a matter for the Welsh Government to decide a policy which is relevant to it. All the Administrations will want to bear in mind businesses which are on both sides of the border and ensure that there is some consistency in approach. However, that is a matter for them.
Based on my assurances that I will write to noble Lords on how the discussion is going now and that it is a matter for the devolved Administrations to decide the relevant policy—
Lord Crickhowell (Con)
My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt. It is, of course, satisfactory that the Minister will write to noble Lords, but this is yet another example of where discussions have been going on for some time since the Bill passed in another place and yet the up-to-date position on them has not been presented to this Committee. Like the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who made the point in an earlier sitting, I do think this is very unsatisfactory. We really should be updated in adequate time on all these discussions and not told that we will be given the information at some stage, perhaps before Report.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I am not quite sure what my noble friend wants me to say, other than that, as I have just said, I will endeavour to ensure that noble Lords will have the information that is being requested ahead of Report. With that, I ask the noble Lords to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, for his response, but he must be feeling a little uneasy with the quality of the brief that he has been given on this. It is recognised the length and breadth of Wales that this is a totally unsatisfactory position which is causing problems for employers and those employees who are hoping to gain benefit from apprenticeship schemes. It is causing problems for the Welsh Government as they forward plan their budget for the coming year. We are talking of a sum of money that may be, let us say for argument’s sake, in the order of £150 million—a significant sum. Whatever the detail on the way in which these schemes are rolled out in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, none the less, if this is the funding arrangement that has been agreed, there should be transparency. We are now in November, and the budget will be coming in April. It is totally unsatisfactory for the UK Treasury and Government to place the devolved Administrations in this position. Whereas the note that no doubt will be sent round will give the fullest information that the Treasury is willing to make available, it none the less may well not answer the serious questions that have been raised.
I am grateful for the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, with his expert knowledge in this area, and to the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, for intervening. We need to know. I realise that it is not the tradition to divide the House in Committee. However, if there is not a satisfactory answer from the Treasury and the Minister, I most certainly intend to come back to this on Report and, at that point, to press it. It is just not acceptable that we in Wales are placed in this position. It is not the fault of the Minister personally, but it is certainly the responsibility of the Government and the Treasury. I hope that between now and Report the Minister will have serious discussions with the Treasury, and that if he in his heart recognises that there is a serious problem here, he himself might choose to come back on this. On that basis, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)
My Lords, I was 12 in 1979 when we had the first referendum on whether we wanted devolution to come to Wales, and I have had a little taster this afternoon of what it must have been like during that campaign. But we have had a different result from that in 1979; the Assembly has been established for 19 years and it is maturing and developing.
I thank my noble friends Lord Murphy and Lord Hain for tabling this amendment because this issue is worthy of debate. I am afraid the people of Wales were told when we established the Assembly that we would put the issue of income tax-varying powers to them in a referendum. We have heard today what a risky business referendums are; I concur—I also have the scars from the recent referendum—and, let me tell you, I am no longer a fan of referendums.
It is worth repeating the question asked by my noble friend Lord Murphy: what has changed since the last Bill that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, brought through the House, and what is the difference between that Bill and this one? What has made the Government change their mind on this issue? It is worth drawing attention to the fact that Wales is not a rich country. My understanding is that only about 6,000 people in Wales pay the highest rate of income tax, those who earn over £150,000, while only one in 16 pay the 40p higher rate of income tax. We are not talking about people that it is easy to tax, so it is worth remembering and understanding that this is not going to be a power that is easily exercisable.
However, I beg to differ with my colleagues on this issue, because times have changed. As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, the Assembly has moved a long way during those 19 years. On top of that, we have the issue of austerity. The IFS said recently that, by 2020, there will have been an 11% cut since 2010 in funding coming to Wales. That is hitting some of the poorest members of our society. Austerity is hitting not only our revenue budgets but our capital budgets. It is all very well to talk about borrowing money from the European Investment Bank, but we do not even know whether we will be able to access that kind of funding in future.
Why do I support the amendment? I support the amendment because, at this difficult time, borrowing against this income stream will be essential if we want to invest in our infrastructure in Wales. There is demand for better infrastructure. People want improvements in Wales. That demand is there. However, it is important to understand—we will come to this in the next amendment—
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. I do not think that she is speaking in favour of the amendment; she might want to clarify that.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
I am not speaking in favour of the amendment because of the next amendment. We need an increase in the borrowing powers because of the funding stream and the devolution of taxation. That is critical to investment in Wales.
We know that the Welsh Government and the UK Government have an understanding and that there will be an agreement on the fiscal framework before we enter the next phase of the Bill. It is important that, in that fiscal framework, we have an offset to the block grant in return for that tax revenue. We need to see how that offset will interact with the Barnett formula, and we need the funding floor to be made permanent. It is critical that we should not accept a situation where Wales will be materially worse off as a consequence of devolving taxation. That would not be good for the people of Wales?
We expect the Minister to negotiate that with the Finance Minister in the Assembly, but can he can assure us that that fiscal framework will be resolved before we have an understanding? We will come in the next amendment to the amount that may be borrowed, but can he assure us that we will be able to have an increase in borrowing powers as a result of the fiscal autonomy that will be coming to Wales?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in this debate. For the sake of clarity—I correct myself as well—this is a clause stand part debate rather than a debate on an amendment to Clause 17.
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Murphy and Lord Kinnock, for moving and speaking to the Motion that the clause do not stand part. I disagree with their intent. As the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, said, we have been here for nearly 20 years since the first successful referendum in 1997. Circumstances massively changed in that time, as the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, said.
Let me try to deal with some of the points. Circumstances have changed since the Silk commission’s first report. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has been consistent on this topic, as has the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock. I confess that I have not. I am more like the brother-in-law of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford: I have changed my mind on some of these issues. I should set that out first. In the Silk commission, all four parties recognised the need for income tax powers for the National Assembly for Wales. If it was to become a full legislature in the proper sense, it was accepted that it needed income tax powers. Some noble Lords have used the phrase as if it meant all income tax powers; of course, it does not; some income tax powers remain with the United Kingdom. We should make it clear that this is not transferring all income tax powers; it is transferring some. It is a significant change, I agree, but the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, for example, that it is a fundamental, apocalyptic change to the way things happen but that it will not be exercised is somewhat inconsistent. It cannot be both apocalyptic and not be used.
I very much hope that it will be used. We cannot necessarily draw conclusions from what has been happening in Scotland. I hope that the National Assembly for Wales will be more imaginative. I was there for 12 years, and there was evidence of a lot of free thinking on many issues, not least in this area, so I do not accept that the power will not be used. We must realise that it is a limited power; it is not transferring all income tax powers to Wales.
I agree with the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, and the noble Lords, Lord Wigley, Lord Crickhowell and Lord Morgan, about circumstances having changed, that perhaps we make use of referendums too freely, and that they are not always appropriate. I feel that if we were to insist on a referendum, it is arguable that we would be holding Wales back. In some quarters—I certainly exempt the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, from this—it is being put forward as a means of trying to defeat the proposal or slow things down. We would not be doing Wales a great service if we did that. This is a power for a purpose, as was identified by the Silk commission. It is bringing in accountability. It is making what I hope becomes the Welsh Parliament, in name as well as reality, a real Parliament with this element of tax-raising power on income tax.
Lord Kinnock
I asked the noble Lord for justification of the change in the law that would be implied by the enactment of the Bill, and he seems to suggest that times have changed and that the Silk commission has made recommendations. Does he believe that times have changed enough to give the Welsh people a real appetite for their Assembly to have the power to impose income tax additions? Does he think the Silk commission was really so conscious of the true economic condition of Wales and the distribution of incomes, referred to by my noble friend Lady Morgan, that it would permit a change that altered the law, removed the requirement for a pre-income tax allocation referendum and justified the introduction of new law? I do not think times have changed that much.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord on this point. I remember the same argument being put forward when we had the 2011 referendum. People were saying that it would not pass and that opinions had not changed in Wales. I remember people on my own side arguing that it would be defeated in all parts of Wales, up and down the country. That did not happen. It was won decisively in every local authority bar one—Monmouthshire, where it was marginally defeated. Do I think that circumstances have changed so that we do not need a referendum? Yes, I do. The noble Baroness speaking for the Labour Party thinks similarly, as do the other political parties. There is probably one political party that does not think that—UKIP—but I disagree with it. Opinion has changed and we would be doing Wales a massive disservice by having a referendum that I do not believe is necessary in the changed circumstances of devolution in 2016.
Lord Kinnock
Does the noble Lord recognise that to justify his contention about the movement of opinion in Wales, he referred to the 2011 referendum? Does he not consider that that makes my point for me?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
No, it does not. Rather the reverse, it showed that opinion in Wales had changed much more than people thought. The noble Lord put a fair question to me: whether I thought that opinion had changed in Wales such that we did not need a referendum. I hope I have given a very fair answer. It is a truthful one—I think opinion in Wales has changed to that degree.
Arguments were put on various issues in relation to this, not least in the area of borrowing. I agree again that, to have significant borrowing powers, there has to be a separate stream of revenue. This would present a separate stream of revenue, and even if the income tax rates were retained exactly as they are in England, it would give that separate rate of revenue. So, there is that as well. I know that we are coming on to a subsequent amendment on this issue. In view of the fact that I do not believe that this change is necessary and the strength of opinion from noble Lords around the Chamber, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Crickhowell
On a point of detail, it was suggested that there was a Welsh Conservative manifesto commitment. I have taken the trouble during the debate to read the Welsh Conservative manifesto, which I confess I had never read before, and there is no such commitment.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I am most grateful for that clarification. I do not think I had read it either. It is always useful to hear these things from someone who speaks with authority, and I thank my noble friend very much. Of course, I am not urging noble Lords to withdraw the amendment; I am just urging that the clause stand part of the Bill.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
In Committee, I think I am entitled to speak as many times as I wish. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, for interrupting him in full flow, but I still look to the Minister to give us some idea at this stage of how he sees it. What is the future fiscal framework? What does he have in mind? Will it be a deduction from the block grant, as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, suggests, or will it not?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I am very happy to supply the information that I gave previously at Second Reading, when I said that I would update noble Lords, before Report, on the progress of the fiscal negotiations that are going on between the Welsh and United Kingdom Governments. As I indicated then, the discussions are progressing well. The ministerial Joint Exchequer Committee has met twice and, according to reports I have had from both the Welsh and UK Governments, it is going well. I am not all over the detail; it would be unwise to be so until they are nearer to a conclusion. There will obviously be a reduction in the block grant because 10p income tax will be raised at the Welsh level. So the discussion is about exactly how we do what is right for Wales and for the United Kingdom within that context. It is good news that progress is being made.
Lord Wigley
I will press the Minister for clarification. Of course, if 10p is transferred over there will be a netting off, but if there is an increase of 1p in income tax there would not be a reduction in the block grant because of that.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
That is absolutely right. The National Assembly for Wales doing something imaginative to raise income will be to the benefit of the Assembly and of Wales. That is the whole point of what is going on. I take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, in suggesting that there is something sinister in the change of heart here. Other parties have had this change of heart; it is a recognition that we do not need a referendum. I suspect that many of the people urging it are hoping to delay things—I exempt the noble Lord from this—or, indeed, defeat it. That should not be the aim. The aim should be to do what is right for Wales. I strongly and sincerely believe that if we were to have a referendum, it would be carried.
Lord Kinnock
On the issue of taxation levied on the people of Wales, will the Minister spend a moment explaining the logic, or lack of it, of a fiscal regime that has ensured, as he will acknowledge from his own experience, huge reductions in the public resources available to local authorities throughout Wales, with awkward consequences for some services and tragic ones for others? These include adult social care and post-16 educational opportunity. Where is the rationality in imposing such a fiscal regime nationally—for purposes I disagree with, but nevertheless that is the law of the land—and simultaneously introducing legislation that would, without a referendum, or further ado, allocate to the Welsh Assembly the power to vary, including raising, income taxes?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, we are being taken in a direction completely off the particular provision in the Bill. As I made clear before, this is a power which, as the noble Lord has just indicated, would enable the National Assembly for Wales to vary income tax up or down, or to ensure that it stays the same if that is what it wants to do. I myself dislike the word “imposing” on the National Assembly or people of Wales. Discussions are going on between the Finance Minister and his team in the National Assembly for Wales—for whom I have the greatest respect—and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and his officials. I believe that an agreement will be reached. If it is not, we do not get the legislation, because the LCM will only come forward if an agreement is reached to the satisfaction of the National Assembly for Wales, and presumably the Welsh Government as part of that. That will carry things through. I do not see that the local government position is anything to do with this.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)
My Lords, if EU investment in south Wales suffers, as some of us fear it might, we could find ourselves with some very dire unemployment problems. Therefore, we will need every penny possible to reinvest in that area.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who have participated in the debate on Amendment 24, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, for moving it.
The amendment seeks to quadruple the Welsh Government’s capital borrowing limit set in the Wales Act 2014 from £500 million to £2 billion. As the noble Baroness is of course aware, borrowing falls within the scope of the funding discussions between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government that are proceeding alongside the Bill. As we know, the Bill cannot proceed without the legislative consent Motion, which is dependent on those discussions being successful.
I refer noble Lords to the communiqué published following the Joint Exchequer Committee meeting in September. The two Governments discussed the rationale for the existing capital borrowing arrangements and agreed to consider changing them. Therefore, I can give the noble Baroness the undertaking that she seeks, and I think it is consistent with what I said in the previous debate. It is unthinkable that the matter would not be raised. However, I think she will understand that I cannot give a specific figure. Indeed, the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, perhaps indicate that we do not want to constrain the figure in case the discussions lead to it going higher than that. I have given noble Lords an undertaking, which I will repeat: ahead of Report I will give a summary of where we are on the fiscal discussions, which are going well—including, as I understand it, in this area.
As noble Lords have indicated, there are two key considerations in relation to the borrowing limit. The first is ensuring that borrowing is affordable for the Welsh Government. Of course, the transfer of the taxation powers that we have just been looking at will certainly help in that regard, as will the smaller taxes that have already been transferred. The second is ensuring that borrowing is appropriate within the funding arrangements for the United Kingdom as a whole. I am sure that those two points are being borne in mind during the discussions—which, as I said, seem to be going well.
In relation to Welsh Government affordability, as I have indicated, we need to ensure that the Welsh Government have sufficient independent revenues to manage their borrowing costs. As I said, the new taxation powers that are being carried forward by the Bill will help in that regard. In relation to the wider United Kingdom funding arrangements, it is important to recognise that, within any given fiscal position, additional Welsh Government borrowing will mean less spending in the rest of the UK, including in relation to some of the issues funded for Wales from United Kingdom taxation.
Those are the issues being looked at, and I can give two undertakings: first, we will not get the legislation without the LCM; and, secondly, I repeat the undertaking that I gave at Second Reading—I appreciate that not all noble Lords were here for that—to give a summary of where we are so that noble Lords will be aware of it ahead of Report.
I understand the points that are being made and I think all noble Lords who have spoken—the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, and the noble Lords, Lord Howarth and Lord Berkeley—recognise the need for these powers in order that the Welsh Government can borrow. Of course, it is then for the Welsh Government to decide how they borrow and how they spend the money—that is within their devolved competence.
Given the undertakings I have given, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
I thank the noble Lord for those undertakings. I was particularly pleased to hear that the amount could even go above £2 billion. We will certainly underline and take note of that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Wales Bill
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)
We have quite a strange group of amendments here but, rather than uncouple them, I would like to suggest a degree of support for the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and the question from my noble friend. We believe that our amendments, notably Amendment 29 in the next group, will achieve the same result of a better alignment between the Assembly’s legislative competence and Welsh Ministers’ executive powers. I shall save my comments on the general principle of aligning legislative and executive powers until the next grouping.
I shall address the specific issue of fishing, addressed by one of the government amendments in this group. At present, Welsh Ministers have powers to exercise fisheries functions in relation to Wales and the Welsh zone. The Welsh zone includes a zone of 12 nautical miles next to the Welsh coast and the territorial sea, which, because Ireland is to the west of most of Wales, reaches beyond that point significantly only in the south-west of Wales, on the Pembrokeshire coast. Unfortunately, the extent of Welsh Ministers’ powers do not reflect the arrangements in England and Scotland, with those Administrations having executive powers in relation to their relevant areas. My understanding is that the Welsh Government have pursued a solution to this for several years, so it is encouraging that the amendment has been brought forward.
The amendment goes some way to addressing requirements, but it requires further work to work properly. For example, as currently drafted, the amendment would permit functions under Section 5 of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act but not Section 5A, which permits functions to be exercised for “marine environmental purposes”. A number of other aspects need to be considered. It would be better if the amendment mirrored the scope of the Welsh Zone (Boundaries and Transfer of Functions) Order 2010, which covers the sort of functions required. It would help to achieve a degree of consistency around who controls fisheries management measures. While we support the Government’s amendment on fisheries as far as it goes, we hope that further work can be done on this matter before Report to ensure that the provisions are fit for purpose.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these amendments, and the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, for bringing them forward. I am well acquainted with his burning passion in relation to these matters, which I know we have discussed many times before.
I turn to the amendments, through which the noble Lord and the noble Baroness seek to extend the common law-type powers of Welsh Ministers. I shall break off and explain what I think that means to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. The issue here is that, yes, common law grows up over a period of time, mostly, though not exclusively, from the contribution of judges—some of it would be by convention in other ways, I think. Here we are seeking to confer these types of powers on Welsh Ministers. We cannot do that by the effluxion of time, because time has not allowed that, so we are taking what is already the position in relation to the common law powers that exist for UK Ministers and saying that we believe that those types of powers should exist for Welsh Ministers. We are transposing them because we cannot build in the period of time element.
It is our view that these amendments would undermine the protection given to a very limited number of Minister of the Crown functions, which the Assembly may modify only with the consent of United Kingdom Ministers. Clause 18 is a key part of delivering the clear settlement that we are putting in place through this Bill. Ministers of the Crown and Scottish Ministers already exercise these common law-type powers. This clause would put Welsh Ministers broadly on the same footing as Ministers of the Crown and Scottish Ministers by ensuring that in future they too will be able to exercise such common law powers.
The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, asked a very fair question in relation to the royal prerogative. I am very willing to meet with him to discuss this further but, so far as we have been able to ascertain, the royal prerogative has not been conferred on Welsh Ministers. They derive their powers from transfer of function orders or under the legislation. The noble Lord probably knows more about the royal prerogative than I do; I am very happy to meet with him on this issue.
Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)
My very short and technical question is whether it is humanly possible, in any event, for prerogative powers to apply to a Parliament of the nature of the devolved Welsh Administration. As I tried to say in a contribution earlier this afternoon, the royal prerogative derives from what started off as a monarchical diktat, curbed by Coke in 1610, very largely whittled away during the Civil War, and largely defined during the First World War—the noble Lord will remember the case of the Attorney-General v De Keyser’s Royal Hotel Limited. By now, there is hardly a remnant left, but I submit that that remnant can remain only with the mother Parliament.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
The noble Lord jogs my memory on the Attorney-General v De Keyser’s Royal Hotel Limited which was a compulsory purchase situation. I believe that he is right and he speaks with great authority. I am always stunned by the noble Lord’s recall of these matters, without any note. I am confident that he is right on this issue, but nevertheless I am very happy to meet with the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, to look at it further.
I was also asked about the transfer of powers, which we are doing by transfer of function order rather than in the Bill. I have notified noble Lords of the functions that we have identified that will be transferred to Ministers. We are consulting with the Welsh Government in case they find any more that we have missed. I do not think that is the case, but if it is we will, of course, amend the transfer of functions orders.
The noble Baroness referred to and welcomed Amendments 31 to 35, which add a number of additional fisheries management functions to the licensing functions already being transferred to Welsh Minsters. These are management functions under the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967. The noble Baroness has said that she is happy with this but it could go further. I will go away and take a look at it, reflect on what she has said and come back to it on Report. On that basis, I urge the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Elis-Thomas
My Lords, I will take up the Minister’s offer of a meeting, not that I want to add to his diary which is obviously very busy during the passage of the Bill. I know that he understands my concern about the general failure of the Bill to move us forward and provide a stronger basis for both the functions of Ministers and the operation of the National Assembly itself. I will not pursue that, because I am leading on the next amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, on 5 July, in the House of Commons, the Government promised to produce draft transfer of functions orders. Have those been produced so far—and if not, why not? Is the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, right when she says that they will be conferred functions rather than reserved functions?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate on this part of the Bill and specifically the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, who are seeking to broaden the definition of the Assembly’s legislative competence to include functions where consultation with a Minister of the Crown is required before modification, by virtue of paragraph 11(2) of new Schedule 7B.
Specifically in relation to the functions set out in that sub-paragraph, I should say first that they are very few. We should be clear that the great bulk of ministerial functions will be transferred by transfer of functions orders—that is the intention—but there are four here that need prior consent. I am willing to go away and look at these, but I have to say that some relate to circumstances that perhaps noble Lords have not taken account of. For example, the very porous nature of the border means that for water—noble Lords will know that we are still looking at this—the present position is that the National Assembly for Wales has some competence in relation to customers who are in England, and vice versa. Therefore, it is not quite as straightforward as it might be in Scotland, with respect to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. That said, I will have another look at the functions as they are set out and be in a position to better inform noble Lords as to the precise thinking behind these.
However, in relation to, I think, Amendment 36, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, or Amendment 37, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, the reason for the measure is specifically the evolving picture on water. We are still looking at that. That is why the measure is in the Bill. Having looked at it, I think it is probably wider than we need, because, if it is needed just for water and sewerage, I do not see why we cannot say so. Therefore, I will certainly take that back to see whether we cannot amend it. If the noble Baroness and noble Lord look at that provision, they may see that we need it because of the situation to which I have just referred of some English customers being subject to Welsh law and Welsh customers being subject to English law. We need to tidy that up.
The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, asked about the transfer of functions orders. He will be aware that I wrote to noble Lords setting out those we intend to transfer. Because of the evolving nature of reserved matters—for example, on teachers’ pay—work on that is still going on. I assure him that work continues on that, perhaps not quite as we speak but pretty much as we speak. On the basis of these remarks, I would be grateful if the noble Lord would withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hope of Craighead
I take up the noble Lord on one point. If I heard him correctly, he said that the amendment was concerned with legislative functions. Strictly speaking, it deals with executive functions, certainly from the perspective of the Scotland Act. Looking at it against that background, I see this as dealing very definitely with the functions of Ministers, which is the executive branch, rather than the powers of the Assembly.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is absolutely right. I correct myself.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
The noble Lord has not clarified to me why he would object to the principle of this alignment between executive and legislative competence. He has told us that he has looked at all these different things, has brought most of them forward, that there is a long list and that he does not think there are many more. But why would he object to the principle of this alignment?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, with respect, for the reason I have given—namely, that it is fine as a principle but, because it on occasion throws up circumstances that cannot be foreseen, it is wise that we go through it with a fine-toothed comb. If we had not done so, it would create difficulties with the alignment we are seeking on water, for example.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
Would it not be possible to do it the other way round and make an exception to the principle? Would that not be easier?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Once we know what the exceptions are, of course, that is the case, but we need to go through them to make sure that there are none of those exceptions.
Lord Elis-Thomas
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister yet again for his generosity in responding to the arguments. We await his further consideration and, no doubt, will have further discussions with him. As the former Member of Parliament and now the Assembly Member for a particular length of the River Dee, I certainly would not want to deprive customers anywhere on either side of the Marches of Wales of their water supply. It is a bit rich, when we revert to this exceptional issue, to suggest to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, that because the rivers in Scotland apparently flow into the sea rather than into England, the situation in Scotland is somehow different. We need weightier arguments on that issue than we have had.
However, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, emphasised the need for clarity and accountability. That is exactly the clarity that all of us who have tried to build and rebuild the devolution settlement in Wales seek. I was particularly grateful, as always, to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for his incisive questioning, and, of course, to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, whom I affectionately earlier called the red baroness. I hope that did not cause her offence. Perhaps I called her that in the Assembly; I keep confusing the Assembly and this Parliament. I will withdraw the amendment but I give way to the noble Lord.
Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)
I support this amendment, the first of a series dealing with individual areas where the British Government do not want certain things devolved to the Welsh Government. I understand why that should be the case in some areas but the onus is squarely on the United Kingdom Government to explain why it should not be the case in others. I am not convinced that Milford Haven should be any different from any other Welsh port. If the issue is about the devolution of ports, the ports should be devolved, both Milford Haven and the rest of them. There may well be a reason but, given the general situation in regard to all these functions, as we go through them today and next week, I repeat, the onus must squarely be on the Government to explain why, under this new system of reserved powers, the Welsh Government cannot have responsibility for them.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I apologise for being blindsided on the government amendments in this group but perhaps I may turn to them first before answering the points raised by noble Lords.
Through the government amendments we will give the Welsh Ministers new powers and more flexibility to make grants or payments to encourage freight modal shift from road to water. The Welsh Ministers are already able under Section 272 of the Transport Act 2000 to make grants or other payments for carriage of freight on inland waterways where this is wholly within Wales, but neither the Secretary of State nor the Welsh Ministers are able to award a grant for a cross-border inland waterway service. This relates to the porous nature of the water, canals and so on to which I referred earlier. Two separate grants would be needed—one for the section of waterway in England and the other for the section of waterway in Wales. The amendment will enable a single grant to be made by either or both the Secretary of State or the Welsh Ministers for a cross-border service on inland waterways. I hope noble Lords will acknowledge that that is very sensible. This already happens for rail in the mode shift revenue support scheme, which is a scheme for rail and inland waterways.
The amendment would also give the Welsh Ministers new powers to award grants or other payments under Section 272 of the Transport Act 2000 for freight services by sea to, from or within Wales. At present only the Secretary of State is able to do so. Although the waterborne freight grant scheme is a Great Britain-wide scheme, the Welsh Ministers do not currently have the same powers as the Scottish Government to award grants under it. The amendment will put that right.
Joint and concurrent powers will offer the flexibility to make awards for cross-border freight services by inland waterway and sea. They also allow for the possibility that there could be circumstances in which the Secretary of State might wish to provide support for services to or from a reserved trust port in Wales and another port in Wales.
Government Amendments 83C, 83D and 107B transfer further powers to the Welsh Ministers to allow them to make loans to harbour authorities under the Harbours (Loans) Act 1972 and the Harbours Act 1964. They enable the Welsh Ministers to make the loans out of the Welsh Consolidated Fund and they apply requirements for the loan accounts to be certified by the Auditor-General for Wales and laid before the Welsh Assembly. The effect of the amendments is to ensure that in relation to harbours wholly in Wales, other than reserved trust ports, the Welsh Ministers can fully exercise the loan-making functions currently conferred on the Secretary of State, subject to equivalent controls.
The Bill already provides for the Welsh Ministers to make loans under Section 11 of the Harbours Act 1964 to harbour authorities for works to harbours wholly in Wales, other than reserved trust ports. The first amendment will also allow Welsh Ministers to make loans to these harbour authorities to pay off capital debts, temporary loans and overdrafts as provided for by the Harbours (Loans) Act 1972.
The second amendment inserts new provisions into Section 43 of the Harbours Act 1964 which supplement the transfer of loan-making powers under the Harbours Act 1964 and the Harbours (Loans) Act 1972. These comprise giving the Welsh Ministers the power to set the repayment terms of any loans made; enabling the issue to the Welsh Ministers of sums to make the loans from the Welsh Consolidated Fund; requiring that all loan repayments must be paid into the Welsh Consolidated Fund; and requiring the Welsh Ministers to prepare annual accounts in respect of loans issued to and repaid by harbour authorities and the Auditor-General for Wales to certify and report on the accounts of the Welsh Assembly.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, has tabled a number of amendments which would remove reservations for reserved trust ports from the Bill and indicated her intention to oppose that Clause 32 stand part of the Bill, which would remove the definition of a reserved trust port. Amendments 61 to 64 seek to remove reservations for and other references to reserved trust ports from Schedule 1, which reserves legislative competence for these ports. Amendments 84 and 86 to 95 seek to remove reservations for and other references to reserved trust ports from Clauses 29, 30 and 33, dealing with the transfer of the executive functions to Welsh Ministers. Clause 32 does not contain any reservations but defines the term “reserved trust port”, and its removal from the Bill would be consequential upon the amendments The Government believe that the reservations for reserved trust ports are an essential element of the Bill and therefore cannot support the amendments of the noble Baroness.
However, in the light of the comments made—particularly by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, who obviously is well acquainted with the trust port—but without any promises, I will have another look at this issue. The point of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that we should not be slavishly mirroring Scotland, is well made. We have to look at the issues specifically on the basis of the nature of Wales. It is right that this would be the only port caught within the definition by some margin—all the other ports are much smaller. Some noble Lords have said that this is just replicating the current position but that is not true because other trust ports would be transferred under the proposals in the Bill.
It is right that this is significant in relation to LNG—I have got 63% but we will not argue about 1%—and gas. It was also at one stage suggested by the current First Minister as a base for the nuclear fleet. The Government are not considering that but it gives an indication of the important strategic role played by Milford Haven. It is a deep water port of unique significance. As I say, I will have another look at the issue but without making a promise on the conclusion.
Lord Crickhowell
Perhaps I may clarify something. I entirely accept and understand the strategic argument but perhaps I should explain why I slightly question the aspect of safety. To give an example, the old Esso jetty, which is a mile long, stretches right across the entrance to the port into the area where all gas tankers entering the port have to pass. It is one of the most exposed parts of the port because it is close to the mouth of Milford Haven. If an accident was to happen, for example, by a gas tanker being blown on to the end of the Esso jetty—and collisions have occurred in the past with fishing vessels hitting the jetty—and an explosion occurred, it would devastate the towns and the oil refinery on the south bank and the town of Milford Haven on the north bank. It is therefore a matter of considerable interest to the Government of Wales on grounds of safety and its possible effect on inhabitants. It is an issue that needs to be considered because there is probably a case for the Government of Wales to at least be involved in some way in considering the possible consequences on the population around the haven if an accident were to occur.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I thank my noble friend for that intervention. He is absolutely right about the need for partnership working between the Government in Wales and the Government at Westminster—as happened in the past, I think he would acknowledge, in relation to disasters that happened in the port. As I said, I have also been involved with the port of Milford Haven through the enterprise zone. It is my understanding that there is co-operation with the Welsh Government at the moment, but there is certainly consultation on certain matters on the part of the port with the Government. It is, of course, important that they are fully engaged. As I have said, I will go and look at it, but without making any promises.
Amendment 98 would require the Secretary of State to consult with Welsh Ministers while setting the strategic priorities relating to the Secretary of State’s delivery, in Wales, of functions under two pieces of primary legislation: the Coastguard Act 1925 and the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. These functions are all reserved matters, exercisable by the Secretary of State for Transport, and are in practice delivered in the United Kingdom by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, an executive agency of the Department for Transport.
The strategic priorities involved would cover decisions over subject areas such as the 24-hour search and rescue helicopter service provided by the coastguard, and the promotion of seafarer health and safety standards. “Strategic priorities” does not cover operational activities and incident response decisions, which remain the responsibility of the chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. Such consultation would normally be effected through administrative arrangements. However, I recognise that the noble Baroness’s amendment mirrors the action taken by the Government through the Scotland Act 2016. Despite having said we will not slavishly mirror things, I will look at that and reflect on the issues raised by the noble Baroness in the amendment. In the light of that, I ask that she does not press her amendments in this group.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
I thank the Minister for that and welcome the amendments he put forward relating to the modal grants, the cross-border initiatives and the loans for harbour authorities. I note he said there was an exception and that trust ports would not be allowed to access those grants. I assume they would be allowed to access other UK grants. Perhaps he could clarify that.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I think that related just to reserved trust ports, so it would only be those that are reserved in relation to the Milford Haven issue.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
I thank the Minister. I noted he said that Milford Haven was essential to the Bill. He then said that he would take another look. I ask him to think about the issues that people have underlined today. The integration of the economy, the environment and safety have all been touched on. The noble Lord was on the enterprise zone for that area. He will therefore be aware of how crucial that interactivity—the interaction between local communities and the local authority—is. All those things need to be co-ordinated. Would it not be a lot easier to co-ordinate that if that power were given to the Welsh Assembly? I appreciate that he will also look at the issue relating to the coastguard and I would be prepared to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, on the point the noble Baroness raised on the enterprise zone, it exhibited that the current arrangements work very well, but I will have a look at it. In the meantime, I propose that the amendment be agreed to.
Wales Bill
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth ExcerptsMonday 7th November 2016
(7 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Wales Act 2017 View all Wales Act 2017 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 63-II(a) Amendment for Committee, supplementary to the second marshalled list (PDF, 52KB) - (7 Nov 2016)
Lord Elis-Thomas (Non-Afl)
My Lords, my amendments in this group are all focused on attempting to ensure that the legislative competence of the Assembly is not reduced by the movement from conferred powers with exceptions, to reserved matters with even more exceptions.
I was always concerned about this matter when I had responsibility for presiding over the Assembly because I had to make decisions about the competence of legislation. I often found it difficult to assure myself that there was clarity about the boundaries, although I was advised by excellent lawyers. The current Presiding Officer of the Llywydd has published a series of amendments to enable us to study the question of the constitutional propriety of where we are heading. What particularly troubles me—I am sure the Minister will understand this—is that the UK Government seem to have no intention of publishing an explanation or rationale, if there is such a thing, across the whole 200 or so reservations that would help us to understand the constitutional principles at work here.
Although we were promised by a previous Secretary of State that the pause in the Bill would give an opportunity for these matters to be considered, and there would be a response, this does not seem to have happened. My amendments would restore or maintain the current competence of the Assembly by enabling it to legislate in an ancillary way in relation to reserved matters. I know the Minister will say that ancillary matters are a minority interest but they are of great constitutional import. In my view, this is a clear example of how the move from the current form of legislative powers to the new form is narrowing the Assembly’s competence.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely and to the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, for tabling the amendments. I am particularly grateful for the careful way in which they have spoken to them.
I understand the importance of the issues that have been raised, and I shall try to address them in general terms by giving some examples of how the purpose test should operate in practice. First, on the wording, I say to the noble Baroness that the legislative competence in proposed new Section 108A(3) is a dual test. It allows the Assembly to legislate if it,
“is ancillary to a provision of any Act of the Assembly or Assembly Measure or to a devolved provision of an Act of Parliament, and”—
so there is the additional requirement—
“(b) has no greater effect otherwise than in relation to Wales, or in relation to functions exercisable otherwise than in relation to Wales, than is necessary to give effect to the purpose of that provision”.
So, it is a dual test. It is not simply ancillary but has to be “necessary”, under proposed new subsection (3)(b) of the provision.
These are important issues but they are not novel. Exactly the same sort of questions arose in respect of the Scotland issue because both in Scotland and Wales we are relying on the so-called purpose test to help define the scope of the relevant legislature’s legislative competence. We now have the benefit of guidance, as has been stated, from the Supreme Court, on the proper interpretation of these provisions. The guidance, although given in a Scottish case, will be highly relevant to the Welsh matters provided for in the Bill before us.
The starting point is that whether a provision in an Assembly Bill could be said to “relate to” a reserved matter is dependent on its purpose. As has been pointed out in the Supreme Court,
“the expression ‘relates to’ indicates more than a loose or consequential connection”.
I stress that the application of the purpose test in a reserved powers model should be interpreted as meaning that a provision that merely refers to a reserved matter, or has an incidental or consequential effect on a reserved matter, will not relate to that reserved matter. In other words, to fail the “relates to” test, an Assembly Act provision must have a reserved matter as its purpose. The purpose of a provision must be established by having regard to its legal, practical and policy effects in all the circumstances. The Assembly Member bringing forward the Bill cannot simply assert a purpose for one of its provisions. The purpose must be assessed by considering how the provision has been drafted and what it actually does, as well as the wider context, including the other provisions of the Bill of which the provision under scrutiny forms a part.
It is also important to say that the move from the current conferred powers model to one based on reserved matters reverses the operation of the purpose test. It shifts the burden, which is important. Whereas under the current settlement an Assembly Act provision needs to satisfy the purpose test by positively demonstrating that it relates to one of the subjects conferred in Schedule 7 to the 2006 Act, the reserved powers model instead requires that such a provision must not relate to a reserved subject matter. In other words, the case would need to be made that an Assembly Act provision is outside competence because its purpose relates to a reserved matter. As I say, it shifts the burden of proof. If such a case could be made, the provision would satisfy the requirements of the proposed new Section 108A(2)(c) and would be within competence, provided, of course, that it satisfied the other legislative competence requirements of new Section 108A.
To demonstrate how the purpose test ought to be applied in practice, I thought it would be helpful to give some examples. However, it is important to bear in mind in each of these hypothetical examples that it would depend on how the provision was drafted and what it actually did. As I have mentioned, the purpose test requires assessment of the effect of the provisions, including all the circumstances, in the round. An Assembly Bill which required tenants to insure their residence could relate to the devolved subject of housing and not to the insurance limb of the financial services reservation in Section A3. Rather than aiming to amend the law of insurance, the provision’s purpose would be to ensure the quality of housing stock in Wales. I think that most people would appreciate that that was the purpose.
A further example is that an Assembly Bill provision creating competitive tendering requirements for local authorities would be to improve their efficiency and cost-effectiveness, and would therefore not relate to the competition reservation in Section C3. Furthermore, the jurisdiction of the Agricultural Land Tribunal is set out in the Agricultural Holdings Act 1986. This Act also specifically excludes certain matters from the jurisdiction of the ALT—for example, disputes between landlords and tenants of agricultural land. An Assembly Bill may seek to alter this position by bringing such disputes within the jurisdiction of the ALT and no longer subjecting them to arbitration. This would not engage the arbitration reservation in Section L4 because the purpose of the provision would be to facilitate the smooth and economic operation of the agricultural sector by providing a practical, accessible and cost-effective way of settling disputes about agricultural land. The effect on arbitration would be incidental to, or consequential on, that purpose.
Lastly, an Assembly Bill provision requiring information-sharing between schools and Estyn which supported more general provisions aimed at improving the operation of the education sector in Wales would not relate to the reservation for the protection of personal data in Section L6. I hope this explanation of how we see the purpose test working, and these hypothetical practical examples, are sufficient to reassure the noble Baroness and that she feels able to withdraw her amendment. It is not possible to go through every conceivable example. I think that lawyers would accept that, as drafted, this would serve to answer particular cases that may be brought forward.
Through his Amendments 39 to 41, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is seeking to broaden the circumstances in which the Assembly could legislate in relation to reserved matters, and in that respect he is probing similar issues to those raised in Amendment 38. I therefore hope that the explanation I have given is reassuring.
As I have said, unlike under the current settlement—where an Assembly Act provision needs to satisfy the purpose test by positively demonstrating that it “relates to” one of the subjects conferred in Schedule 7 to the 2006 Act—the reserved powers model instead requires that such a provision must not relate to a reserved subject, so that the burden is shifted. In other words, the case would need to be made that an Assembly Act provision is outside competence because its purpose relates to a reserved matter. If such a case could be made, the provision would satisfy the requirements of the proposed new Section 108A(2)(c), and would be within competence, provided, of course, that it satisfied the other requirements. I do not therefore see a need for the Bill to be amended in the way that these amendments propose. Indeed, a side effect of the noble Lord’s amendments would be to prevent the Assembly being able to legislate otherwise than in relation to Wales for ancillary purposes—currently an important part of its competence that allows for enforcement provisions to apply in England. This is something that I know the noble Lord does not intend.
Government Amendment 42A is a minor change to ensure that the wording of the test in Section 108A(5) coincides with the wording in paragraph 12 of Schedule 7B. Both provisions ensure that, when considering the legislative competence of the Assembly in the context of an Act of Parliament, any requirements for the consent of, or for consultation with, a Minister of the Crown, are not relevant. This makes sense on the basis that it would be clearly inappropriate to require a Minister of the Crown to consent to, or be consulted about, an Act of Parliament. This is a technical amendment ensuring consistency throughout the Bill.
I turn to Amendments 47, 75 to 78 and 81 and 82. Paragraph 6 of Schedule 7A reserves the core elements of the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. These include the courts, judiciary and civil and criminal proceedings. Sub-paragraph (2) provides an exception to this reservation to enable the Assembly to provide for certain appeals or applications in relation to a devolved civil matter where it is ancillary to a provision of an Act of the Assembly or an Assembly measure.
Amendment 47 seeks to remove the ancillary requirement from this exception and allow the Assembly to directly place devolved functions on to civil courts. This ancillary requirement is crucial in that it enables the Assembly to enforce its legislation and to allow appeal decisions on devolved matters to be heard in a court on civil proceedings, yet it maintains the clear boundary that the single legal jurisdiction is a reserved matter. Paragraph 1 of Schedule 7B restricts the Assembly’s ability to modify the law on reserved matters. This includes any enactment whose subject matter is reserved. Paragraph 2 sets out the exception to this restriction. It allows the Assembly to modify the law on reserved matters where the provision is ancillary to a provision on a devolved matter and has no greater effect on reserved matters than is necessary to give effect to the provision. This provides the Assembly with the flexibility to legislate with regard to the law on reserved matters in a limited way to give effect to provisions that are within its legislative competence. However, such a provision cannot go further than required to achieve its objective.
Amendments 75 and 76 seek to remove the second limb of this exception—that the provision must have no greater effect than necessary—from Assembly provisions that seek to modify the law in relation to paragraphs 6 and 7 of the new Schedule 7A. These are the reservations for the single legal jurisdiction and tribunals. Amendment 77 seeks to remove the necessity element of this test altogether. This would allow an Assembly, through on Act, to amend the law on reserved matters without a requirement for it to act proportionally to meet its objective. The law on reserved matters is, by definition, not an area of the law that should be open to wide-ranging alteration by the Assembly in this manner. This is vital to effect a clear boundary between what is devolved and what is reserved.
The matters within paragraphs 6 and 7 to Schedule 7A specifically are fundamental to the maintenance of the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. The Government’s position on the maintenance of the single jurisdiction is clear. Allowing the Assembly to modify these areas puts at risk the uniformity on which the single jurisdiction is based. Removing the requirement that Assembly modifications to the law on these matters should go no further than necessary would give the Assembly a significant increase in competence. The constraints represent an appropriate and balanced limitation on the Assembly’s competence. This gives the Assembly the same powers to modify the law on reserved matters as the Scottish Parliament has in relation to Scotland.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I do not think I follow the noble Lord’s point. It is obviously a hallmark of good legislation that it is not retrospective. Therefore, anything that we are doing here will not, as it were, undermine anything that has already happened. But I think what we are doing otherwise is fairly clear for the future, so I do not quite understand what he means by perverse in that context.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I shall be very happy to discuss it further with the noble Lord.
The inclusion of exceptions to the Minister of the Crown consent process would undermine the whole principle of providing clarity within the devolution settlement over who can legislate for what.
The remaining government amendments in this group—Amendments 78A to 78D and 80A—build upon Clause 13, which is an important part of the Bill. Through that clause we are devolving competence to the Assembly so that it can set up its own regime for the audit and accounting of the Welsh Government and its public bodies, similar to the arrangements made by this Parliament for the UK Government and by the Scottish Parliament for the Scottish Government. Clause 13 has been the subject of detailed discussions between the United Kingdom Government, the Welsh Government, the Assembly Commission and the Wales Audit Office, and these amendments are the result of those discussions.
Through Amendment 78A we are devolving competence to the Assembly to amend Section 146A(1) of the Government of Wales Act 1998. Amendment 78B replaces paragraphs 5(2) to 5(6) of new Schedule 7B, as inserted by Schedule 2 to the Bill, with simpler drafting without changing the effect of the provisions in any way. The effect of these two amendments is that the Assembly will be able to modify Section 146A(1) of the Government of Wales Act 1998, which allows the Welsh Ministers to delegate or transfer supervisory functions to the Auditor-General for Wales, provided that that amendment is a provision about the oversight of the Auditor-General for Wales.
Through Amendments 78C and 78D we are devolving competence to the Assembly to amend sections of Part 5 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, other than those that are already listed in paragraph 7(2)(d), without the consent of the Secretary of State provided the amendments are incidental to, or consequential on, provisions relating to budgetary procedures or devolved taxes.
Finally, Amendment 80A will put in place key safeguards in paragraph 7 of new Schedule 7B so that the Assembly will be able to amend Treasury functions in Sections 138(2) and 141(4) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 only with the consent of the appropriate Minister.
Section 138(2) allows the Treasury to appoint another member of the staff of the Assembly as principal accounting officer for the Assembly Commission if the Clerk is unable to discharge these responsibilities or the post of Clerk is vacant. There are already arrangements for dealing with the replacement of an Assembly Clerk in certain circumstances, such as incapacity, and the accounting officer appointment should follow from that process. If these arrangements are changed, it is only reasonable that the Treasury gives consent because it is the guardian of the overall accounting officer system in the UK.
Section 141(4) ensures that the Treasury may continue to determine the form in which the Welsh Government submit their returns for the whole of government accounts. Although we are content for this to change in principle, the Treasury quite rightly wants to make sure that any change aligns with the arrangements for the Scottish Government, and so a requirement to seek Treasury consent is sensible.
These are technical but important amendments that build upon the important provisions in Clause 13. I therefore commend government Amendments 42A, 78A, 78B, 78C, 78D and 80A to the Committee and I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, in introducing his Amendments 77 and 78, did not expand very much on what they mean. I support the Government on the necessary test for the law on reserved matters, and I think it is essential that it be confined in that way.
I would be extremely concerned if there were an attempt to have a different criminal law applying in Wales, save in matters concerned with the enforcement of regulations or Acts of the Welsh Parliament. However, any modifications to the criminal law that dealt with, for example, the meaning of intention, recklessness, dishonesty, and so on or “secondary criminal liability” would cause great conflict. I have to tell your Lordships that I was involved in the definition of “recklessness” in the House of Lords Judicial Committee 25 years ago. My argument was dismissed but 25 years later their Lordships overruled the previous decision. It was similar with secondary criminal liability. My argument about that many years ago was dismissed but in very recent times has been accepted. These are difficult concepts and they should not be interfered with in any way.
Lord Morgan (Lab)
My Lords, what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said is totally correct. Y Wladfa, the Welsh community in Chubut, rather benefited from the Falklands War, because the Argentine Government were rather anxious to show that they were solicitous of the needs of cultural minorities in their country. I feel, on behalf of Welsh historians everywhere, that I should support this. I have not been to Chubut, as the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has, but I have taught Chubut students in Swansea. I twice published articles by historians from that community in the Welsh History Review when I edited it. They have a very living contact; it is not an antiquarian matter. All Welsh people should strongly support it.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for introducing the amendment and other noble Lords who have participated in the debate. Through the amendment, the noble Lord seeks to extend the Assembly’s competence so that it could legislate otherwise than in relation to Wales to support the Welsh language and Welsh culture in the Argentinian province of Chubut.
Of course, the history of the Welsh settlement—“settlement” in a sense that I hope I will be allowed to use here—in Patagonia is one of the great stories of human migration and holds a special place in the hearts and minds of people in Wales. It is a story of typical Welsh tenacity and fortitude that led settlers to travel thousands of miles, driven by the desire for a better life and the dream of establishing a new Wales.
In Patagonia today, interest in the Welsh language and Welsh culture is flourishing, more than 150 years on from the first settlement. Members of the Welsh Affairs Committee in the other place saw this for themselves when they visited Patagonia in 2014, a year early, to mark the 150th anniversary of the arrival of the first Welsh settlers. Although the anniversary was in 2015, typical Welsh efficiency and promptness meant that they were there a year early. The settlement is of course a part of Argentina and, while Welsh culture thrives there, it is wonderfully intermixed with the rich culture of South America. I, too, have taken an interest in the settlement. When I was on the British Council committee, access to finance and help were certainly provided to Chubut.
When the amendment was tabled, my reaction was, “Surely, the National Assembly has the power to do this already”—and that is our conclusion. The common law-type powers that we are devolving to Welsh Ministers will ensure that they can continue to act in the way that they are doing in support of the Welsh language in Chubut. I will have another look at it to ensure that that is the case and will be happy to speak to the noble Lord if that is helpful, but I am sure that we would all want to see this continue. With that, I ask the noble Lord if he would kindly withdraw his amendment.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I thank everyone who contributed to this short debate and am grateful for the positive spirit and in particular for the response of the Minister. I had hoped that he would say that the powers that already exist are not in any way diluted or diverted by virtue of the Bill. The Minister mentioned legislation. I should clarify that it was not my intention that the National Assembly should legislate for what happens in Chubut—obviously not—but there are Executive actions which support the language, and it is the continuation of those that I wish. Given the assurances that the Minister has given, and assuming that he does not find any snag that he has not seen so far, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My noble friend Lady Randerson. I was getting my names mixed up for a moment. She said the other day that it is—as a matter of fact, I have forgotten what she said so I shall leave it at that.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their participation in this part of the Bill. Through these amendments, the noble Lord, Lord Elis- Thomas, is seeking to provide the Assembly with the competence to consolidate the law as it applies in Wales. Through Amendment 43, I think that he seeks to broaden the circumstances in which the Assembly could legislate other than in relation to Wales. However, the amendment as drafted would actually narrow the Assembly’s competence to legislate otherwise than in relation to Wales by making the “no greater effect than necessary” test more restrictive. I am sure that this is not the noble Lord’s intention.
Through Amendment 44, the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, seek to give the Assembly a wide-ranging power to restate without modification any law that provides for the government of Wales. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, was referring to an alternative Bill that is not a consolidation measure. We would hesitate to accept an alternative Bill which is nothing to do with consolidation.
Nevertheless, let me answer the question about consolidation because it seems to me that the consolidation of United Kingdom legislation can realistically take place only in the United Kingdom Parliament, and no more could or should the United Kingdom Parliament consolidate legislation of the Welsh Assembly or, for that matter, the Scottish Parliament.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked why we have not consolidated previously. The reason is that we have been under continuous pressure—I think that probably applied to the previous Government as well—to change the laws in relation to Wales because it has been a fast-moving position. There has been understandable pressure to make amendments, and it is difficult to consolidate the law at the same time as the law is being changed. In relation to an area that I know something about—company law—before the consolidation in the Companies Act 2006, which was then and I think still is the largest piece of legislation ever to go through the UK Parliament, there had not been a substantial consolidation measure since 1948, although there had been consolidation to some extent in 1985. That is why these things get postponed.
Before we get too exercised by this, I remind noble Lords that this does not alter the law. The law is there. I would need to be convinced, as I think others would too, that people in Wales are hanging about for a consolidation measure and that they want the law somewhere neatly. I do not think they are particularly exercised about this. I would have to be convinced that this is something that is exercising people up and down Wales or, indeed, in England. There was a suggestion—I am characterising it slightly—that this primarily concerns Wales, but it concerns England too, and Scotland, because it carves out the constitutional position within the United Kingdom.
That is not to say that it may not be necessary at some stage, but when it is done, it is important that it is done in the UK Parliament. In the meantime, it is important that we get the law right. I appreciate that we have got some way to go on some of that, but it is more important to get the law right before we consider consolidating it, so I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I apologise to my noble friend Lady Randerson. What she said on the first day in Committee, which I now recall, was that there should be an easy way of access to Welsh law, and so far nobody has put together any form of loose-leaf book or anything of that sort that shows the current law in Wales. That is the point she made, which I follow.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, there is a commercial opportunity there. I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for her good idea.
Lord Crickhowell
I am sorry to intervene again, but I thought I was being pretty stupid at a late hour at night when I asked what subsection (5) meant. When a leading Welsh lawyer got up and asked exactly the same question, I decided that perhaps I was not quite as stupid as I thought. I would love to know what it actually means.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I believe it means—and I will write to noble Lords if I am incorrect in this, as I may be—that, in determining what is necessary for the purposes of subsection (3), which relates to the test of ancillary and necessary, you cannot allege that it is necessary that the law is passed unless it is necessary that it is an Assembly law. It cannot be necessary for another legislative body. I think that is what it means. If I am wrong, I will write to the noble Lord and copy the letter to other noble Lords. I may be wrong.
Lord Elis-Thomas
I am, of course, disappointed by the Minister’s response, but I should be disappointed at least once in a debate in this Parliament. I am grateful for the support from the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Gale, and for the interventions by the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Crickhowell.
The consolidation of the law is about the intelligibility of the law and the transparency of political activity. I will continue to pursue this with greater vigour and will call upon my distinguished academic colleagues throughout the Principality and beyond to get on and do it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on this part of the Bill. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, for moving the amendment with such fluency and commitment, although he will know that I disagree with him fundamentally, particularly on the first of the two amendments in this group.
Through their Amendments 45 and 46, the noble Lords, Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Wigley, seek to place new duties on the Secretary of State for Wales to review the constitutional arrangements for Wales and the operation of the Wales Bill that we are putting in place. Indeed, through Amendment 45—at least on the wording, although I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, has said—they seem to be proposing that the Secretary of State of State be required to review Wales’s readiness for independence. I can act only on the basis of how the dominion status has operated in the past. The Statute of Westminster 1931 is expressly referenced in the amendment. There is no appetite for this proposal in Wales. Both noble Lords will know that that is shown in opinion polls and at the ballot box.
The Statute of Westminster established the dominions as sovereign states and enshrined in law the principle that no legislation made in this Parliament could apply to the dominions unless a dominion requested it. We cannot possibly agree to that. It also provided that the Parliaments of the dominions would have the power to amend or repeal any previous legislation made by this Parliament. Therefore, we cannot possibly agree to what is proposed. As a representative of a London-based polity, as it is called, I do not believe this proposal is wanted in England and it is certainly not wanted in Wales either.
Through Amendment 46, the noble Lords are seeking to place a new duty on the Secretary of State for Wales to establish a working group to review Schedule 1, which sets out the reservations, as soon as possible after it comes into effect and to report on reservations that should be removed within three years of the principal appointed day—the day on which the new reserved model comes into force under Clause 55.
Once again, we have a measure in front of us to set up yet another commission or working party to look at constitutional arrangements. I do not believe that would be welcomed in Wales. We have a duty to get on with the job on this Bill. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, on the question of dominion status, I was tempted to make the mischievous point that for many centuries Wales was a dominion in law. The actual wording of the Act of Union of 1536 refers to the,
“dominion, principality, and country of Wales”,
so that wording has been there for many centuries. However, that is a mischievous point, probably made much too late at night.
Some years ago, a good friend said to me, “You could be a very nice chap if you did not tilt at the English so often”. I am not sure what a nice chap was intended to mean in that context, or whether I would ever qualify within that definition. However, as far as the second part of his proposition was concerned, I have never tilted at the English. I have immense respect and, indeed, often, admiration for our neighbours. I conceive nationalism in the context of Wales as being a patriotism that knows not the hatred of any other nation. That is what Welsh nationhood and Welsh nationalism at their very best should be and are. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“(a) welfare advice to courts in respect of family proceedings in which the welfare of children ordinarily resident in Wales is or may be in question;(b) representation in respect of such proceedings;(c) the provision of support (including information and advice), to children ordinarily resident in Wales and their families, in respect of such proceedings;(d) Welsh family proceedings officers.”
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, turning to the next group of amendments, I am pleased to speak, first, to government Amendment 47A, which was tabled as a result of discussions with the Welsh Government.
Paragraph 6(5) of new Schedule 7A provides for an exception from the reservation for courts and civil and criminal proceedings as part of the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. The exception is for the,
“provision of advisory and support services in respect of family proceedings in which the welfare of children ordinarily resident in Wales is or may be in question”,
so that the provision of such services is not reserved by paragraph 6(1). This exception was intended to reflect the existing exception for what may be described as the functions of CAFCASS Cymru.
The Welsh Government have argued—in our view with some force—that the wording of the exception is too broad and does not sufficiently closely reflect the Assembly’s current competence in respect of CAFCASS Cymru. Amendment 47A seeks to insert into paragraph 6(5) modified wording which, I understand, the Welsh Government support.
Government Amendment 47B would remove sub-paragraph (2) from the defence reservation. It would have no effect on the substance of the defence reservation but it would remove a tautology. Removing this sub-paragraph would not change the powers that Welsh Ministers have under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 to appoint marine enforcement officers, who then enforce legislation in relation to sea fishing; nor would it change the automatic appointment of certain members of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces as marine enforcement officers under the same Act. I am pleased to say that UK Government and Welsh Government officials have worked together closely to come to the conclusion that this sub-paragraph should be removed.
Government Amendment 52A is a technical amendment. It seeks to provide clarity in relation to Section C2 in new Schedule 7A by providing a definition of “business association”. There is already such a definition in Section C1, but interpretation provisions in the schedule cannot be read across to apply to other sections.
Government Amendments 53A and 53C would make minor adjustments to the consumer protection and product standards reservations to ensure that the Assembly’s competence in these areas remained unaltered from the current position.
Amendment 48, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, proposes the devolution of policing. As the noble Lord will know, the Government have been clear that, in the absence of a consensus around the Silk commission’s proposals in this area, policing is not being devolved. We believe that the current England and Wales arrangements for policing work well, and the proponents of devolution have failed to adequately address some of the risks that would arise if these arrangements were disrupted.
Lord Crickhowell
On this very point, at Second Reading I asked the Minister to explain why it appeared that powers over policing were being given to some English regions while they were not being given to the Welsh Government. I am entirely in favour of a general reservation and I would simply like an explanation of that apparent difference.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I shall deal with that briefly before I resume. I recall my noble friend raising this at Second Reading and I will write to him. The devolved arrangements that I think he is referring to in relation to some of the city regions in the United Kingdom, specifically in England, do not involve devolution in the way that it is being talked about here. They do not establish separate lines of authority within national boundaries, for example. I will write to him with details on that but I think that the form of devolution is rather different in that respect.
There are factors that I think I should touch upon in relation to why policing is being retained within the England and Wales system under the Bill. First, policing is inextricably linked with the criminal justice system. It is a key component. The criminal justice system’s priorities and ways of operating have a direct impact on other parts of the criminal justice system and vice versa. This can be seen, for example, through quality of evidence gathering and the mutual role played in crime prevention and reducing reoffending. Secondly, existing governance and partnership arrangements provide a significant level of integration and autonomy. The establishment of police and crime commissioners has already devolved policing to the local level. Thirdly, there would be cost and complexity in separating out the existing national structures and arrangements. Fourthly—although admittedly this is a factor that is more easily accommodated—police forces in England and Wales are responsible for tackling a range of crimes and other threats that go beyond the boundaries of a single police force.
At the national level, the strategic policing requirement which applies to police forces in England and Wales sets out the threats which are considered of particular national significance. These include terrorism, organised crime, public disorder, civil emergencies, cyberattacks and child sexual abuse. These threats can require a co-ordinated or aggregated response in which resources are brought together from a number of police forces. Devolution could lead to a weakening of both the regional and national response to these serious crimes. In short, the devolution of policing could lead to a disjointed criminal justice system, adding costs for both the people of Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom.
Amendment 49 would remove the reservation in relation to anti-social behaviour. This would remove our ability to legislate to prevent and address anti-social behaviour through coercive methods such as the tools and powers introduced by the 2014 Act. The subject matter in the Act is intended to reserve coercive responses to anti-social behaviour generally, whatever its form, rather than the detail of the specific orders contained in the Act. The whole approach to anti-social behaviour set out in the Act is intended to encourage the police, councils and other partners to work together to deal with problems quickly. The legislation provides local agencies with a range of different powers and measures and it is for front-line professionals to develop jointly solutions which address the causes of the behaviour and protect victims and communities.
I will listen carefully to the arguments made in this debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, seek through Amendment 50 to devolve responsibility to the Assembly for private security. I appreciate the view that private security should be a devolved rather than a reserved matter. I understand those who question why bouncers in, say, Merthyr, Swansea or anywhere else in Wales should be regulated on an England and Wales basis but there are sound reasons why private security is a reserved matter.
First, the security industry is regulated in England and Wales by the Security Industry Authority, an effective regulator which provides consistent standards across borders. In an inherently mobile industry it promotes consistency, maturity and professionalism through, for example, the approved contractor scheme. The licensing regime operated by the authority provides reassurance that those who work in the private security industry have the appropriate qualifications and training and have been subject to rigorous criminal records checks.
Secondly, there are close links between private security and the police, particularly in relation to the night-time economy. The Security Industry Authority has an investigative arm which, in co-operation with the police and other government bodies, tackles criminality in the private security sector, including organised crime. All Security Industry Authority-approved qualifications also include counterterrorism awareness, for example, in looking out for hostile reconnaissance, and the industry is playing an increasingly important role in being the eyes and ears to potential terrorist threats. These current arrangements work well.
Amendment 51 seeks to remove the reservation for the sale and supply of alcohol and the provision of entertainment and late night refreshment. These activities are regulated under the Licensing Act 2003 and the proposed paragraphs preserve the current devolution settlement in respect of all matters covered by that Act. Regulated entertainment includes live and recorded music, plays, films, indoor sporting events, boxing, wrestling and dance performances.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
I think the noble Lord has decoupled that amendment. We will deal with heating and cooling at a different time.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I apologise. I am grateful for the intervention. In that case, I have dealt with our amendments. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her timely intervention. I beg to move.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I have great personal respect for the Minister, as he well knows, but it is absolutely outrageous that he should be replying to a debate before the arguments have been put forward relating to the amendments. Amendment 48 in my name, to which he has responded comprehensively before I spoke to it, was the lead amendment in this group on Thursday afternoon when I left Westminster. When I came down here at 1 pm today it had been tacked on to the government amendments, which means that the very substantive issue of devolution of police in Wales has been tucked away without an opportunity for a proper debate.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I apologise to the noble Lord. Had he got up at an earlier stage I would have happily given way to him, but our amendment was the lead one in the group. I certainly would have given way to him if he had asked.
Lord Wigley
I accept entirely the Minister’s point that they have been grouped in this way, but when I realised they had been coupled in this way it was too late for me to get the decoupling done. That means that devolution of the police, which was a major issue for the Silk commission, is being tucked away at this hour of the night and has been responded to before the arguments have been put. I intend to put those arguments, even at this late stage of the night, and I shall not truncate what I had to say.
Amendment 48 would remove a reservation and subsequently devolve matters relating to the police in Wales to the National Assembly. As noble Lords will be well aware, the Silk commission, of which the Minister was a member, recommended unanimously the devolution of policing and related matters of community safety and crime prevention. Given that the Minister was so keenly in support of that in the Silk commission, it beats me how he was able to say what he said a few moments ago. It is my contention, shared by many people in Wales, that this Bill should have enacted the Silk recommendations—or at least the unanimous recommendations and in these matters in particular.
To put it simply, Wales, like the other nations of the United Kingdom, should have responsibility for its police forces. I cannot see any reason why police priorities in Wales should be dictated by the UK Parliament and not by the National Assembly. Given that policing is devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland, I can see no reason why it cannot be devolved to Wales. What makes Wales an exception?
The four police forces are unique within the United Kingdom. They are non-devolved bodies operating within a largely devolved public services landscape. They are thus required to follow the dual and diverging agenda of two Governments. Additionally, all four forces in Wales accept the need to provide a service in Welsh and in English. North Wales Police does this with great effectiveness and is held up as a model among public sector organisations in Wales for its language training support and initiatives. This has largely broken down barriers which were at one time widely felt within Welsh-speaking communities in northern Wales and has created a new climate within which police and public co-operation have flourished.
All four police and crime commissioners, the Welsh Government, the Official Opposition in Wales and even the Welsh Conservatives are in favour of devolving policing to Wales. In fact, the only elected body of people in Wales who share the view of the UK Government are the UKIP AMs elected in May—I am not sure whether they are now unanimous on this matter either.
Transferring responsibility to the Welsh Government would not be the tectonic plate shift that many in this Committee might be inclined to believe. Relationships between the Welsh forces and the UK services, such as the police national computer and the Serious Organised Crime Agency, would continue as at present, as is the case with Scotland. I remind the Committee that many of the public services which are directly relevant to policing work are already devolved. That is the case with regard to highway matters, social services, local government, the ambulance service, youth services, education and training. It makes practical good sense to devolve policing, so that a synergy can be developed with these other devolved services.
Why should the people of Wales not be given the same democratic freedom enjoyed by the people of Scotland? Doing so would lead to greater clarity and efficiency by uniting devolved responsibilities, such as community services, drug prevention and safety partnerships, with those currently held by the UK Government.
The Silk commission was established by the Tories and comprised all four main political parties in Wales, including the Conservative Party. Its members spent two years consulting the public, civil society, academia and industry experts on the powers necessary to strengthen Wales. It received written evidence, heard oral evidence and visited every corner of Wales. It heard evidence from the police themselves and from the Police Federation calling for the devolution of policing, and the report recommended accordingly.
Budget cuts to Welsh police forces have been severe. We have seen a reduction of 1,300 in police officer numbers in Wales since 2010. It is true that these cuts have been across the board, but, as Plaid Cymru has recently discovered, they may well have been more manageable had the formula used to fund the police in Wales been according to population and not to crime figures.
A policing grant consultation launched in July 2015 by the then Home Secretary, Theresa May, was abandoned earlier this year after Policing Minister Mike Penning admitted that there had been a “statistical error” on which several police and crime commissioners threatened legal action. Last year’s formula would have resulted in a £32 million cut to Welsh forces, which. as everyone can imagine, would have caused the Welsh police severe difficulties.
The 43 police forces of Wales and England often have different needs and challenges. Policing is a field for which sophistication and complexity are needed in the funding formula to properly account for the relative needs of each force. The review last year sought to place greater emphasis on socioeconomic data and more general crime figures. Such a formula does not properly consider the workload differences in each constabulary. Figures provided by Dyfed-Powys Police indicate that funding our forces in line with population would result in an additional £25 million for the four forces in Wales. That is the Dyfed-Powys Police figure, not mine.
Of course, if policing were devolved to Wales—a position supported by all four police and crime commissioners—the overall Barnett formula would be applied as for the funding of all devolved public services and based on our population. So by retaining police as a non-devolved service controlled from Westminster, Welsh forces face the prospect of these very significant cuts. This is particularly relevant when we consider that policing is devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland. Consequently, that new formula will not apply to them. Policing is the only emergency service not to be devolved. I am yet to come across any convincing argument, even after listening to the Minister tonight, for not doing so.
Even at this late stage, I beg the Government to think again and show that they are sensitive to widespread feelings in Wales on the issue, particularly within the police forces themselves, and add this provision to the Bill. It would then start to garner a critical mass which parties in the National Assembly would see as a significant step forward and create a logical framework of devolved services that could better serve Wales. There is no point in me adding more now: the reply has already been given. I write that into the record and I emphasise that I am very unhappy about the way this debate has been handled.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, once again I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, in particular. I was a victim of the way in which the grouping was set out; because the government amendments were put first, that was the way I felt was appropriate to tackle it. I shall try to respond to points that have been made on these various amendments.
First, no noble Lord should have been taken by surprise by the Government’s attitude on policing. We made it very clear that we have a set agenda, which I have set out. I do not accept that this was somehow a surprise.
I am happy to meet the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, about the alcohol reservation, to see whether we can meet her concerns. I have spoken to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, about the Pubs Code levy—so it did not just come up this evening—and explained that one reason why we do not think it appropriate for devolution is that the way that the levy operates would not be affordable in Wales. I said when speaking to those amendments that that would be to the detriment of Wales, but I am happy to look at it further with her if she wants to revisit it. I am very happy to speak to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about the issue of ticketing and bus services that she raised, to see what we can do.
I accept that a lot of issues are involved here, from bouncers to alcohol the Pubs Code and so on. I accept that it is late at night and that we have covered a lot of territory, although there was considerable discussion on an issue where I think that virtually the whole House was united. We spent a great deal of time discussing that on an earlier amendment, which was certainly not of my choosing, although I was happy to respond for the Government on it.
I hope that noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments in the group—which is, I appreciate, a considerable number of amendments. The reason for some of the government amendments is that we have been listening and are responding—on teacher’s pay, the community infrastructure levy and so on. I hope that noble Lords accept when they say that the number of government amendments indicates that it is a fluid area that that is because we have been listening. I am happy to indicate that we will listen further, and I hope that that has been my approach, but I am duty bound to let noble Lords know what are regarded as red lines for the Government, where we are unable to meet the wishes of some—perhaps a majority—of noble Lords. However, where we can help and where powerful arguments are being made—as I have indicated have been on a number of amendments this evening—we are happy to move.
With that, I ask noble Lords who have tabled amendments in this group not to press them.
Housing
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in this debate, which has touched on many areas and has been conducted for the most part in a fair, fluent and non-partisan way.
The noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, is a living legend in the Methodist Church. In my own Methodist church in Golders Green, he is very well known for being articulate and fair, as he was in setting out his stall today. I thank him very much for bringing forward this debate on an area of key importance. In relation to what he said about some of the work of the Methodist Church, I pay tribute to the work of faith bodies, which help massively with this agenda, as does the third sector—the charitable and voluntary sector. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Bird, has made a fantastic contribution via the Big Issue. We need to recognise that, whatever successes we have, there will always be a role for those sectors to help on a local basis. I am most grateful for that, as I am sure we all are. I recently visited a cathedral and found in conversation with the people there just how much they were doing to help people sleeping rough by providing meals and assistance. That indicates that in areas where there is a gap the faith-based institutions provide massive assistance.
I will try to respond in a non-partisan way as most noble Lords made very fair points. After all, all three major parties have been in government over the last 25 years and this problem has not suddenly arisen; it has existed for many years. There is no silver bullet. As I think all noble Lords have recognised, this is a very far-reaching problem. The one point on which we are probably all agreed is that the main issue here is supply. We are simply not building enough houses and not providing enough houses for purchase or for rent. That is undoubtedly true. To put that in context, some of that is exacerbated by demographic factors. The country’s population has grown in an unprecedented way in the last 10 to 15 years. Demographic changes have resulted in families being structured differently. We probably need to provide units for smaller families than used to be the case. Therefore, these factors need to be fed into the situation as well.
However, rising house prices have pushed home ownership further and further out of reach for families, for “just managing” families and for the young. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has made clear that he agrees that this is a problem: we are simply not building enough houses. I thank noble Lords who mentioned the contribution that he and Gavin Barwell, the Minister in another place, are making to change the agenda, and it has been recognised that the Prime Minister regards this as a priority. Indicating that this is important has certainly been a hallmark of her coming into No. 10. With regard to announcements made on money for housebuilding, £3 billion will go to a help-to-build fund and £2 billion to direct commissioning. To relate that to points made by my noble friend Lord Horam, we have announced that we are putting money into direct commissioning and that there will be some pilots; we are looking into pilots in Gosport and elsewhere with regard to building in the public sector. I accept entirely the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about the importance of building in the public sector under both his part and mine, particularly in the 1950s and 1960s, which made a massive difference to the housing situation in this country. It is a different type of country now, and we will need different responses.
The noble Baroness, Lady Dean, talked about the importance of aspiration to home ownership and said that home ownership has fallen. It has fallen consistently since 2003 and has plateaued now. However, we certainly need to take measures, as we seek to do, to encourage home ownership and provide assistance for it.
We are being pressed to do two things, which are not inconsistent. One is to help home ownership, which is absolutely right. The other, which is also right, is to provide assistance for other forms of tenure; for example, to provide encouragement for the private rented sector. I think this will be reflected in the White Paper—we have not clearly nailed down the wording on housing yet—but as my noble friend Lord Horam said, this will see the light of day either this month or the next, therefore before recess, and will indicate some of the thoughts and challenges we face. I hope it will be a seminal White Paper that will look at some of the challenges we face and how we can transform the position, which means building far more. To come back to that, clearly it is partly about financial help; prices will come down if we are able to tackle the current shortage. The Neighbourhood Planning Bill, which will also come to this House before Christmas, does some things on compulsory purchase and planning, which will help that process, so it is not just about injections of cash but about seeing how we can make the planning process speedier. On the issue raised about people holding land and not developing it, again, I hope we will be able to use the housing White Paper to get thoughts on that so that we do not have long periods between planning permission and building. Those points were well made.
I will pick up some of the points that were made. I think the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, referred to prefabs; we like to call them “modern prefabs” because they are very different from those that came before. They will make a massive difference and they come in some bold, innovative and rather attractive designs and have been broadly welcomed. A survey was done in the Daily Mirror in the last couple of days which indicated a 67% approval rate of these modern, 21st-century prefabs, so they can make a difference.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said that this was a generational problem and that we are a lucky generation. That is undoubtedly true, and it is exemplified not just in this field but in others such as pensions. It is a fair point that we need to tackle these issues for the young on a moral basis, not just because of the housing issue but across the board, in many other areas. Again, I hope the issues raised by Treasury rules will be addressed through the housing White Paper.
The noble Baroness, Lady Grender, talked about the important work of Shelter. I underline and acknowledge that; it is an important partner. That does not mean we always agree with Shelter but it carries out important work in this sector. She talked about sleeping rough, and there is undoubtedly an issue, particularly in large cities such as London. In the most recent survey in England, it was found that 3,569 were found to be sleeping rough on a single night. That is clearly unacceptable and we need to see how we can address that problem. We are taking action on homelessness and money has been put there; I hope we can make use of the trailblazing money that has been made available for particular areas that have come forward with plans. We hope to roll out more widely the social impact bond, which operates successfully in London.
The noble Baroness, Lady Grender, also mentioned self-build. We are taking that forward. The policy was initiated by the previous Government but we are taking it forward. I took through the regulations in this House a couple of weeks ago. We hope that will help not only supply but with speed and design. In virtually every other country on the continent there are far more self-build houses than we have here. The attitude is changing here and I hope the regulations will help and be part of the answer.
The noble Baroness, Lady Healy, fairly raised the issue of women prisoners, who are often victims as well as offenders. That is absolutely true. I recently visited a troubled families programme where this issue came up. The matter is particularly acute because there are so few women’s prisons, which is a good thing but a difficult issue when the family is affected and the mother is some way away. I take the point that the noble Baroness makes about the need to provide suitable housing for them. The issue also ties in with domestic abuse and, as she probably knows, we are about to make an announcement of funding, which we hope will help in that area.
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, had almost two bites of the cherry but I thank him for his contribution. He has done so much in the field of helping vulnerable children, children in care and foster carers. The Government acknowledge his work and the fact that he keeps us on our toes. Perhaps I may respond to him in writing on some of the more detailed aspects, and on other issues that have been raised, and will send copies to other noble Lords who participated in the debate. Any issues that I miss we will pick up in a write-around and ensure that all noble Lords are copied in.
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, talked about children in care and I acknowledge that there is a particular issue there, as there is regarding children in foster care. He asked more generally about what we are doing about homelessness and young people. He will know that families with young children are prioritised for temporary accommodation, on which we are having to rely on far more than I or anyone would want. We obviously do not want it but it is better than the alternative. It remains a serious issue. I will write to the noble Earl on those points. I should like also to offer him the opportunity to speak with officials to pick up the issues and, I hope, involve the Departments for Education and Work and Pensions. It is a global issue.
The noble Baroness, Lady Dean, referred to the financial challenge of getting together a deposit to buy a house, which is a problem I readily acknowledge, along with the capacity issues she mentioned. I will take back her point about tax incentives, which have a broader compass within government, and look at the Treasury position, too. There is an incentive given as regards the right to buy when people are purchasing public sector property. However, I take her point that she is looking at this on a broader front.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, for the long list of issues that he raised. I will certainly seek to write to him about them. He asked, for example, about garden villages, and we are taking that matter forward in relation to Ebbsfleet, Bicester and elsewhere. I will ensure that he receives a more detailed response that will be copied to other noble Lords.
The noble Lord also asked about rural homelessness. He is right that there is a particular issue there because wages are still lower in rural areas. We need to ensure that we have a supply of housing in those areas. At this point, perhaps I may say that there is often a tendency to respond in a certain way when we address these issues. As soon as the Government come forward with a plan to build more houses or to provide for a permitted development, whether offices or residential, there is a tendency to cry foul and say, “We want you to do something but we don’t want you to do that”. So I just temper what I say by adding that I hope we will get support for some of the detailed policy points. Generally, if we get support to do something, that translates across to necessary action. The rural situation is recognised. The department is discussing it with Defra; in fact we were discussing it yesterday. I hope we will be able to tackle it somewhat when the housing White Paper goes out for consideration.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, put the case very fairly. Rightly, he sees that there is no silver bullet—no single thing that we can do. What is required is almost a change of attitude and a change of mood music, identifying that this is a really serious issue going forward. As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, rightly said, it is a generational issue, as well as a serious political issue, and it ticks two important boxes, if I can put it that way. I hope that we will get a chance to look closely at the housing White Paper and, on a non-partisan basis, to see a way forward, ensuring that we do the right thing for the country and particularly for young people.
I thank noble Lords very much for their participation in the debate. I will ensure that all points are picked up and that a detailed response is sent. Once again, I thank noble Lords for a very interesting, important and well-informed debate.
Directly Elected Mayors
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Grocott
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their policy on directly elected mayors.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)
My Lords, the Government are clear that directly elected mayors can provide that strong and accountable governance locally that is necessary if significant powers and budgets are to be devolved to local areas, and are the most appropriate governance model for the most ambitious deals, particularly in cities.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
My Lords, has the Minister seen the—certainly, for me—welcome suggestions in various newspapers that the Prime Minister is not nearly as keen on making directly elected mayors compulsory for areas engaged in devolution as was the case with the enthusiastic support they got constantly from George Osborne? If it is the case that the Prime Minister is a little bit more open-minded on this, should not the Government at least let those local authorities know, in areas where they are discussing devolution settlements, that if they do not want a directly elected major, they do not have to have one?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, first of all, there is no question of areas having to have directly elected mayors: these are grass-roots decisions, brought forward by local authority leaders if they want elected mayors. There is nothing compulsory about it. However, it remains very much the case that that is the policy—the most ambitious deals will go forward only if they have directly elected mayors.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in Lincolnshire, which is a large rural area, the county council overwhelmingly voted not to have a directly elected mayor, although it would welcome, and be able adequately to exercise, devolved functions? My noble friend, in his Answer, said, “particularly in cities”. Can he now say that it will not be necessary in rural areas?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, first of all, I was aware of what happened in Lincolnshire. Of course it was not a definite, final decision: that will be taken only in the first two weeks of November. I have indicated that there have been deals without mayors—that was the case in Cornwall—but they were unambitious deals. It remains the case that, whether it is rural or urban, the most ambitious deals will have mayors.
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, the Minister told us that this was a matter for grass-roots decisions and was not compulsory. Do the Government have a list of those powers that can be devolved with an elected mayor and a list of those powers that can be devolved where there is not an elected mayor; and will the Government publish those lists?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, it is the case that the most important strategic powers on transport, planning, investment and adult education go with having a directly elected mayor via the combined authorities. The noble Lord will know that there are lesser powers in Cornwall, for example. It is also important to note that the mayor is the voice for the area in terms of gaining investment and representing industry. This role is significant and important on the continent and in America and will, I believe, be important here.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I think I am probably more of an enthusiast for directly elected mayors than my noble friend Lord Grocott. However, the significant point is that in London, where there is a very successful mayoralty, the local people voted in a referendum to have such a system. Given that the Minister is talking about this being a grass-roots-led process, why do the Government not allow the communities concerned to decide whether they wish to have a directly elected mayor, rather than imposing the conditions centrally from Whitehall?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, as I indicated, it is the directly elected representatives of cities such as Liverpool and Manchester—not necessarily Conservative areas—who bring forward the idea and then it is for the people to make their choice on the mayor. All the evidence on the continent, in the United States and, as the noble Lord rightly said, in London, shows that this is the way forward for ambitious deals.
Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, have we not had enough referendums for the time being?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, there are certainly all sorts of drawbacks to having too many referendums.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the much-vaunted eastern region devolved administration of Norfolk and Suffolk—Cambridgeshire has been spun off—is falling apart because of the requirement of an elected mayor? The main reason for wanting those devolved powers is precisely to strengthen the rural transport connections, as part of East Anglia, for example, is surrounded on three sides by water. Following the question from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, will the Minister review the position and understand that rural areas are precisely the places where transport connectivity might be vital for economic growth, so that those in the more deprived rural areas can come into their market towns, but that it is not possible because of the Government’s absurd, 1970s insistence on elected mayors?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I am not sure that this is something that was prevalent in the 1970s. On the noble Baroness’s example of Norfolk and Suffolk, I very much hope that they do pursue a deal, but that is very much a matter for Norfolk and Suffolk. There are other rural areas that are pursuing this with vigour as well—Cambridgeshire, for example. It is a matter for those areas.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, the Minister will be aware of the discussions in Yorkshire between rural and urban areas and the question of whether one goes for Leeds-and-a-bit, a greater Yorkshire or an alternative. While an elected mayor for Leeds is entirely appropriate, an elected mayor for the mixed urban and rural areas of Yorkshire, containing between 4 million and 5 million people, seems to us to be entirely inappropriate. Will he take that on board?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I bow to the noble Lord’s knowledge—I know he is very well aware of the local situation—but it is for the people of the locality to come forward with the plans and then, of course, it will be looked at by the department. However, I take his point on the specific example.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as an elected councillor of the London Borough of Lewisham and as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. Will the Minister explain to the House why these ambitious deals must have a directly elected mayor? Why cannot the local people decide?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, I think I have already answered that question.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
It has certainly been asked in a different guise, but let me reply to it again. It is a matter for the directly elected representatives of the constituent councils to come forward with plans. They know their localities. On occasion, they have not wanted to pursue it; as was the case, for example, in South Tyneside. So it is a matter for them. As I have said previously, all the evidence from the continent, from the United States and from London is that this system works.
Lord Grocott
If the Minister has doubts about referendums will he please explain, in the case of Birmingham and Coventry specifically—where there was a clear rejection in a referendum of directly elected mayors—why now, without a referendum, he is imposing a directly elected mayor across the whole West Midlands region?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I am all for people exaggerating my powers but I am not imposing anything at all. As I have indicated, it is a matter for the people of the locality, through their elected representatives, to come forward with these plans. The noble Lord is mixing up two very different things. The referendums he referred to were not combined authority elections.
Wales Bill
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth ExcerptsMonday 31st October 2016
(7 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Wales Act 2017 View all Wales Act 2017 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 63-I(a) Amendments for Committee, supplementary to the marshalled list (PDF, 131KB) - (31 Oct 2016)
Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)
My Lords, I wholeheartedly agree with the submission made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. He has adumbrated all the arguments that I can possibly think of in support of this amendment. It goes to the very heart of the question that this is essentially a contract, not inter-institutional in terms of the mechanics of Westminster, but a contract with the people of Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for introducing this amendment, and the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, for his contribution. The amendment seeks to define the trigger for a referendum to abolish the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government, and would provide that the rules for such a referendum be drawn up by the Assembly in co-operation with the Electoral Commission. Clause 1 meets the Government’s commitment in the St David’s Day agreement and delivers the Silk commission’s recommendation that it should be recognised that the National Assembly is permanent so long as that is the will of the majority of the people of Wales. New Section A1(3), in Clause 1, states:
“In view of that commitment it is declared that the Assembly and the Welsh Government are not to be abolished except on the basis of a decision of the people of Wales voting in a referendum”.
As matters stand, referendums are governed by the law relating to referendums, as passed by this Parliament, and I do not consider that there is any suggestion that that should be varied. The principle in the Bill establishes in statute what is already recognised to be the case—that the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government are permanent parts of our constitutional fabric. The referendum provision strengthens this commitment and delivers on the second limb of the Silk commission’s recommendation. Although there has never been a question about whether these institutions are anything but permanent, it is only right that if they were to be abolished that would have to be on the basis of a decision by the people of Wales. Let me be clear that such a referendum is not envisaged, and so the noble Lord’s amendment deals with entirely hypothetical circumstances. I therefore believe that it is unnecessary. On that basis, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Wigley
Perhaps I may press the Minister to be a little clearer on this matter. Is he telling the House that there are no circumstances in which a Government in Westminster, in this Chamber or the other Chamber, could move to hold a referendum if the National Assembly for Wales were against holding such a referendum? Or is he saying yes, Westminster can pass such a referendum irrespective of the wishes of the National Assembly?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, the noble Lord will know that I do not set out the rules on the sovereignty of Parliament. He will be aware, as I am, that very recently we have seen situations that demonstrate the sovereignty of the people and the sovereignty of this Parliament, so nothing I say could obviate the possibility of a Parliament coming forward subsequently and reversing that. For example, it would be open to any Parliament here to repeal the Government of India Act. That would not be a sensible move and would not be politically realistic, but in terms of the sovereignty of Parliament, of course, that remains the case. This is an important declaratory principle that has not existed previously, indicating the permanence of the institution and the fact that it is the belief of this Parliament that it should not be done without the consent of the people of Wales.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
Does the Minister agree that this matter would be caught by the words of new subsection (6) in Clause 2:
“But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Assembly”?
In other words, it is the Sewel covenant. The Government would fall foul of that, it seems, if they were to act in a cavalier way.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his assistance on this matter. He is right that this provision gives that convention statutory force but, of course, it does contain the word “normally”; therefore it is still subject to the will of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. He is right that in normal circumstances that would be impossible to do.
Lord Elis-Thomas (Non-Afl)
I do not wish to anticipate any major contribution that I may have to make on my own amendment on the word “normally” later on, but I do not believe that the Minister has really answered the question from my colleague the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who asked whether the Parliament of the United Kingdom could legislate for a referendum on the future of the National Assembly without the consent of the Assembly. It seems to me that if we are legislating, as we are in the Bill, for the convention relating to the legislative consent Motions to be part of Welsh law and devolution law, then surely, in a situation where the future of the Assembly were subject to a referendum, consent should be sought. Or is the Minister allowing a little room for the removal of the Assembly without the consent of its Members?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I think the noble Lord knows me better than to think that that is on my mind at all. I was not the person who brought forward this amendment. I am unable to rewrite the rules on the sovereignty of Parliament; I was merely pointing out the legal position in relation to this. There is a very clear declaration that is consistent with the Silk recommendation which was discussed by the Silk commission. It is not to be anticipated in any way that this Parliament would wish to do anything relating to the National Assembly except celebrate its existence. I make that absolutely clear; it is my position and the position of my party, as the noble Lord knows. I just point out that this cannot overrule the rules of science and of parliamentary sovereignty that exist independently of the amendment.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I am not sure that it is in order that I respond, but I will happily talk to the noble Lord outside the Chamber and report to other Peers. I have to say to the noble Lord that the declaratory statement was something pushed for by his party. I am very surprised that he then says that this does not have any significance, because his party pressed for it very hard. I would have thought he would welcome it being put in legislation.
Lord Wigley
I am grateful for that addition. Of course there are things that one declares. The question is whether one declares them intending them to have the force of law, which is what we are dealing with here—we are dealing with legislation. I will now go on from that; no doubt we can have a private conversation about it.
I believe that the people of Wales are entitled to know where they stand, in particular about the possibility that, if the going gets rough, Westminster can organise a referendum with a view to abolishing the National Assembly. That is not a good basis on which the Bill should be built. I welcome the declarations made regarding permanence. I was just looking for a way to ensure that that is the position in law, as well as in declaration, but we have probably taken this as far as we are going to this afternoon, so I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, with respect, I think that this is the next amendment.
Lord Judge
The Minister may well be right, but I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, talking about “normal” in the context of Clause 2. At some stage I want to make the point, so perhaps I may just finish making it, because I do not want to take long about it. Please can we look at the matter in the context of Clause 53 and, in particular, Clause 53(6) concerning statutory instruments, powers vested in the Secretary of State, affirmative resolution, and so on:
“unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament”?
It totally omits reference to the National Assembly for Wales, yet in Clause 2 we are told that the Government will not normally legislate without the consent of the Assembly. Somewhere along the line, this bridge has to be crossed.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I rise with some trepidation among so many distinguished lawyers to make two brief points about the argument we have been having. The Government have acknowledged that there is a problem by setting up this working party, but I am not persuaded that they have done anything other than offer the working party as a sop to those who are concerned about this issue. If the working party was going to be rigorous and reach any kind of useful conclusion for us, it would have met several times by now. Otherwise it is up to the Government to say to us today that it will not be reporting this autumn but, rather, at some point in the distant future because it has discovered that there is a great deal of work to do. I therefore support the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Thomas because I believe that three years is a reasonable timescale for a commission to look rigorously and thoroughly at all the aspects of this.
I also endorse the comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon. The consolidation of Welsh law is becoming increasingly urgent. I know that the Minister is aware of it, having been a Member of the Welsh Assembly. Because the Assembly puts things on its website on the internet, they are not available in the printed format in which most law is available. People can find it difficult and complex to seek out legislation in order to find out which is the most recent version of the law. That issue needs to be discussed. Moreover, something that no one has mentioned so far in the debate is EU law, much of which has been incorporated into Welsh Assembly legislation. Once we have the great repeal Bill, I would ask the Minister how it is anticipated that this will be recognised within the single jurisdiction and whether the working party is considering the issue of EU law.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, this has been a wide-ranging debate on what is clearly an important matter. I turn first to the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who put his case very passionately, as he always does. He addressed some of the important issues in this. Perhaps I may make several points, the first of which relates to a matter he raised and which, I think, was touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, or perhaps it was the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. The administration of the courts is quite separate, I think, from the issues of the actual sources of law and separate jurisdiction. The second point I would put to him and indeed to other noble Lords is that to some extent this is a question of semantics. We can say now that we have a separate jurisdiction because we have separate arrangements in relation to Wales. That is undoubtedly the case and some of them are already in place. So I appreciate the points that are being made, but there are shades of grey here. It is not as if it is all or nothing or as if separate arrangements are not being made for Wales now in relation to cases and judicial process; that is certainly the case.
I should also say that what the noble Lord is putting forward represents a massive change which I do not think is necessary. If you speak, as I have done, to people in the law schools of Wales and ask them how many students are actually opting to study devolved law as it is at the moment, you will find that it is a handful. I was stunned because I thought that far more would do so. I do not say that with any pleasure, but it is an indication of the fact that this is an evolving situation and as things stand we do not really have a pressing need for a separate jurisdiction in the way that he has talked about. I do not think that that is the case. Having spoken to practitioners and independent members of the Silk commission, I know that they, too, believe that there is a danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The law schools of Wales recruit students not only from England but from overseas, which is a massive market for them. I know that the noble Lord would not want to jeopardise that. Practitioners, too, talk about the importance of the legal system that we have at the moment. That was exemplified by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, in talking about the porous nature of the border and the fact that we have to recognise that.
It is right that the working party has met only once so far—I think that it is in Cardiff as we speak and is meeting legal practitioners and lawyers tomorrow. That was not suddenly set up; one cannot suddenly issue invitations in that way. The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, was right to say that there is a forthcoming meeting—I think that it is on 7 November, although I am not absolutely certain of that date. The Welsh Government are invited to it, as they were to the first meeting—I think that they attended the first meeting, but I stand to be corrected on that . I will endeavour to ensure that ahead of Report—I will come back to the question of Report in a minute—noble Lords have a summary or details of what has happened so far and of the people on the working party.
All I can say about Report is that we do not know when it will be. I was rightly pressed to say that we would not get to Report because of the need for an LCM from Cardiff. I am not a magician; I cannot say with absolute certainty when Report will be, but I will endeavour to ensure that insofar as we have information, noble Lords are apprised of it as soon as possible and ahead of Report.
Turning to points made by others, I am grateful for the contribution of my noble friend Lord Crickhowell on the complex and detailed nature of the proposal, and to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, who spoke of sympathy with the general point but acknowledged that we are not at this stage in a situation of wanting a separate jurisdiction. We need to ensure that separate arrangements exist for cases that have a Welsh dimension and that practitioners and judges are steeped in Welsh law if such cases involve Welsh law. I accept that and we are looking at it. I take the point that we should look at this matter on a continuing basis, because it is right that it is an evolving picture. I do not think that we are currently at the stage of wanting a separate jurisdiction, but we need those separate legal arrangements and to make sure that the interests of Welsh litigants, Welsh witnesses, Welsh practitioners and Welsh law schools are all taken care of.
I will take away the points made about the commission. I do not think that a statutory commission is the right answer, but we need a body that looks at this matter on an ongoing basis—I have sympathy with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, that it is an evolving picture. I have sympathy, too, with the points made by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, about the sources of Welsh law. I shall take those away and reflect on them before Report.
I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, who has vast experience not just of Wales but of the law, for his comments about the need for administrative arrangements and the consolidation of legislation—it was a point well made. My noble friend Lord Deben assured me that he was not being mischievous in putting forward his point; I did not think for a minute that he was. It is absolutely right that we need the evidence from the working party ahead of Report. As I have said, we know that Report is a little way ahead because of the need for an LCM from the Welsh Government before we can proceed, so I hope that we have that in place. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, speaks with great experience, both judicial and political. I take his point about the symmetry of a separate judicial system where one has a separate Parliament and can understand his cri de coeur as a Welshman, but, as he rightly said, we have to recognise that we need to address practical issues in relation to ensuring proper protection for Welsh practitioners, As to Welsh students and Welsh lawyers, we want the best Welsh lawyers to be able to serve in Wales rather than be encouraged over the border because they feel that a separate system has been set up. All those points need to be taken into account and I do not want to shy away from them in any way. We have to do what is right for Welsh law, but, as I have said, it is an evolving picture at the moment rather than one that demands a separate jurisdiction. With the assurances that I have given, I urge noble Lords not to press their amendments.
Wales Bill
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth ExcerptsMonday 31st October 2016
(7 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Wales Act 2017 View all Wales Act 2017 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 63-I(a) Amendments for Committee, supplementary to the marshalled list (PDF, 131KB) - (31 Oct 2016)
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, I was in this Chamber when this issue first arose in 1998 in the then Scotland Bill. I heard Lord Sewel produce his sentence, which was hastily cobbled together. There was no thought behind it. It was not part of the government programme at that time, but he was under great pressure from Scottish Peers to define when the Westminster Parliament would act where Scotland had competence. He came out with his phrase, using the word “normally”, in that context. It has found itself into the Scottish legislation and has been adopted for the purposes of this legislation.
It is an unsatisfactory solution. There are no doubt exceptional circumstances, such as a declaration of war or something of a really serious consequence, when the Westminster Parliament may wish to overrule the Welsh Assembly or act in its place, but the word “normally” does not cover that. It is open to huge misinterpretation and the sort of litigation to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, referred in his contribution before the adjournment. The Government ought to excise the word altogether. I seem to recall it was still in contention as to whether it was a satisfactory phrase in consideration on the recent Scotland Bill.
I also support Amendment 8 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely. I prefer it to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, because it is disjunctive whereas his is not. An “or” at the end of his proposed new paragraph (c) might have made it a bit clearer.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who participated in the debate on this amendment. I turn first to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. Clause 2 places the existing convention on legislative consent on a statutory footing. As the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, just indicated, this is not something that the Government have suddenly dreamed up. It is an existing convention and something we committed to do in the St David’s Day agreement. As has been noted by various noble Lords, it is also in line with Section 2 of the Scotland Act 2016. The convention states that Parliament will not normally legislate on matters devolved to the National Assembly for Wales without the consent of the Assembly, or in the case of Scotland the Scottish Parliament. These amendments seek to broaden the convention in two ways. They seek to remove the “not normally” requirement and also seek to expand the circumstances in which Parliament would not legislate without the consent of the National Assembly for Wales.
That said—the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is right that I am going to refer to the doctrine of the sovereignty of Parliament—I can, nevertheless, understand the points that have been made. I am grateful for comments about this from other noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, and earlier from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who is not in his place at the moment. I will go back and have a look to see whether we are able to do something by guidance, but the whole nature of the “not normally” is that that there will be circumstances that are difficult to foresee.
The nature of this signals that they are not justiciable, because it is left to Parliament. However, in line with comments from noble Lords and in the interests of ensuring that we look at this from all angles, I will go back and see whether there is something that we can do in relation to guidance on the two issues in relation to devolved matters as raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, and the noble Lords, Lord Elis-Thomas and Lord Wigley. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I understand the Minister is saying that it is not justiciable as to whether the word “normally” is applicable in a particular case. However, it could be subject to judicial review if a Minister brought forward a Bill that was the subject of contention as to whether the circumstances were normal or abnormal. To say that it is not justiciable is not, I think, correct.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I do not think that I said that. I said that it signals that it is not justiciable. I am making the point that noble Lords have been making about the generality of the phrase and that it is difficult to define, and it means that if Parliament decides something it can decide that this is not normal. That is the point about it. As I say, I will take it back and see whether we can accomplish what noble Lords are seeking in guidance.
Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that there are two problems here? First, the bar is set at a very low level—a level of “normality”. Secondly, as far as the word “normal” is concerned, although of course it appears in the two Scotland Acts, it does not seem ever to have been judicially interpreted in the courts. That is a considerable weakness. I take the Minister’s point that in a way it is a matter for Parliament to define itself—to define its own metes and bounds—which bearing in mind its absolute sovereignty are untrammelled, but nevertheless it is a crucial word in an Act of Parliament and as such it must be interpretable by the courts. I am afraid that, if the matter were raised before the higher courts now, they would say that “normal” means something that is not abnormal and they would leave us in the mists of uncertitude in that way.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his comments and for clarifying what I was intending to say, and I apologise if I had not made that absolutely clear. I have taken on board the points that are being made. I said that we will look at this in guidance, but as I have indicated there is a need for room for manoeuvre here, so I will take the points back and look at them.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, we are making progress. This is a good omen perhaps for a future amendment that is coming forward. I am grateful to the Minister for agreeing to take it back and look at it. It is always better to have something spelled out in the Bill quite clearly than to depend on guidance notes. Of course the objective of this Bill is to clarify and simplify the problems that have arisen over the past few years, not to dig more holes for ourselves. But in the spirit in which the Minister has offered to look at this again, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
“ The advisory committee for Wales established under section 5 of the Food Standards Act 1999.”
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I will begin with government Amendments 19, 79 and 80, which relate to four cross-border health authorities. These are: NHS Blood and Transplant; the NHS Business Services Authority; the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation; and the Human Tissue Authority. The purpose of these amendments is to allow the Assembly to legislate to confer functions on these authorities in devolved areas without requiring the consent of a United Kingdom Minister. In recognition of their status as bodies serving both England and Wales, ministerial consent will apply in relation to any changes to these authorities’ constitutions.
Government amendments 11, 12, 15 and 16 add four authorities to the list of “Wales public authorities” in Schedule 3. Because they are now listed as Wales public authorities, the restrictions placed on the legislative competence of the Assembly in relation to “reserved authorities” will not apply to these bodies. The authorities being added are: the Welsh Food Advisory Committee to the Food Standards Agency; the Flood and Coastal Erosion Committee; the Independent Groundwater Complaints Administrator appointed under the Cardiff Bay Barrage Act; and the person appointed by Welsh Ministers under Section 3 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989. My office has been working with the Welsh Government to produce a complete list of Wales public authorities when the Bill is passed. The inclusion of these four authorities in the list is one outcome of this work. Amendment 18 replaces the reference in the list to the Residential Property Tribunal Wales with a fuller legal description of the bodies covered by this umbrella term. Again, my office has worked with the Welsh Government on this change.
In Amendments 13, 14 and 17, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, are seeking to remove the governing bodies of further and higher education institutions, the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and regulated higher education institutions from the schedule of Wales public authorities. The noble Baroness and the noble Lord seem to be seeking to address concerns that have been raised with the Wales Office that the categorisation of these authorities as Wales public authorities will undermine the private sector status or the charitable status of higher and further education institutions in Wales.
I reassure your Lordships that the definition of Wales public authorities in the Bill does not affect the legal status of these institutions as both private sector corporations and charitable institutions. The purpose of new Schedule 9A is to set out an illustrative list of public authorities that fit the definition of Wales public authorities in Clause 4 of the Bill. It delivers a key part of the clarity we are seeking to deliver through the Bill by setting out clearly the public authorities that the Assembly and Welsh Ministers can legislate on without consent.
By removing these educational institutions from that list, the amendments would make their status within the Welsh devolution settlement unclear. This would cast doubt on the status of these institutions when the Government’s position is perfectly clear: education is a devolved matter and so the Assembly should be able to legislate in respect of educational institutions in Wales in an entirely unfettered way. However, I am happy to look in more detail at the precise concerns that are being raised. Welsh universities and further education institutions, as authorities exercising functions of a public nature in Wales, have been appropriately categorised in the Bill, but I will look to see how we can reflect their special position in the title of the schedule in order to stress the fact that they are different from other public authorities. On that basis, I beg to move government Amendment 11 and look forward to hearing from the noble Baroness and the noble Lord about their amendments, which I hope they will not move.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
My Lords, Schedule 3 will provide some welcome clarity about competence in relation to Welsh public authorities. So long as Assembly Bills meet the competence tests in the Wales Bill, the Assembly will be able to legislate in relation to Welsh public authorities without needing to seek the consent of the UK Government.
Most of the UK Government’s amendments add to or clarify the list, and we support them. We are also very content with the removal of special health authorities. I understand that they will be treated differently and need not be in Schedule 3. I beg to differ with Liberal Democrat Peers who suggested removing from the list of institutions in Wales a reference to the further or higher education sectors, the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and the regulated institutions under the Higher Education (Wales) Act, to which my noble friend referred.
We do not think it appropriate to support any amendments which might act in such a way as to restrict the legislative competence of the National Assembly in respect of these further and higher education bodies. Having said that, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for outlining the real concerns of the institutions, which need to be addressed. I thank the Minister for agreeing to clarify this issue and for looking at attempting to reflect that special position and ensure that they can continue with their current status.
However, I am afraid that removing these institutions could create uncertainty in the future over the need for ministerial consent where a provision of an Assembly Act confers functions on such a body or removes them from it. No such uncertainty exists in relation to the current legislative competence of the Assembly, and the uncertainty would not arise in the future if these bodies remained on the list.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for participating in the debate on this group of amendments. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, I will just perhaps restate some of the points I made earlier. Very much on the basis that we will still cover these institutions, if there is a way of looking at the nomenclature, such that we can seek to ensure that they have the continued strength and independence that they enjoy at the moment, we will do that, as that is very much in the best interests of Wales. We have first-class educational institutions at university and further education level, and we want to maintain that but at the same time ensure that they are brought within this part of the legislation.
I take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, made about the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and agree it does not seem to be in the same category as the universities. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, agrees with that. That is different in nature, but if there is a way of protecting the universities and the further education bodies and their charitable status, at the same time as covering them within the Welsh public authorities, universities and so on, I am keen to do that, and will ensure that we look at the Bill in that regard. I thank noble Lords who brought forward these amendments but urge them not to press them at this stage.
“The Flood and Coastal Erosion Committee or Pwyllgor Llifogydd ac Erydu Arfordirol.”
“The Independent Groundwater Complaints Administrator.”
“A rent assessment committee constituted in accordance with Schedule 10 to the Rent Act 1977 (including a leasehold valuation tribunal and a residential property tribunal).”
Baroness Gale (Lab)
My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Hain and Lord Murphy and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for bringing these amendments before us tonight. I am sure that we all agree that we have had a very good debate on them. I think that this is the first time we have ever debated the qualifications of candidates for the Welsh Assembly. It is something that we should all be looking at. The current qualifications for candidates are wide. A candidate has to be at least 18 years of age, be a British citizen, an eligible British Commonwealth citizen or a citizen of any member state of the European Union—but I suppose that that could change in the near future. There is also no requirement in law for a candidate to be registered as an elector in Wales. I believe that the qualifications for those who stand for the House of Commons are very similar.
That is very different from the qualifications required to be a local government candidate in Wales and England. Some of them are similar to those for standing for the Commons and the Welsh Assembly, but with one big difference. Candidates have to meet at least one of four criteria. They must be registered as a local government elector for the local authority area in which they wish to stand from the day of nomination onwards, or occupying as the owner or tenant of any land or premises in the area during the whole of the 12 months prior to the day of nomination and on the day of the election. The local government area must be the main or only place of their work during the 12 months prior to the day of nomination and on the day of the election, or they must have lived in the area during the whole of the 12 months before the day of nomination and on the day of the election.
It is clear that local government candidates must have some links with the area which they represent. That makes sense and is in line with the amendments before us. What is good enough for local government candidates must surely be good enough for Welsh Assembly candidates. However, it is important that there should be more than one qualification. It should not be just a case of whether you are an elector and live in Wales; you should have wider qualifications. Of the four or five qualifications, or however many there are, a person should meet at least one of them.
This has been a very good debate and it is important that we should have had it. As other noble Lords have said, it has been brought about because of this year’s elections to the Welsh Assembly, which made us all think about the issue—I do not think that any of us had thought about it previously, because nobody believed that someone elected to the Welsh Assembly would not be Welsh or not be living in Wales. It has never happened before.
The matter requires further discussion, but I ask the Minister whether it could be included in the devolution of election matters to the Welsh Assembly as laid out in the Bill or whether it is a matter for the UK Government to determine. We believe that it should be for the Welsh Assembly to decide on qualifications of candidates. Let it decide what it believes are the right qualifications for candidates. It would probably agree that there should be more than one qualification to stand for election to it.
We need clarity, which I am sure the Minister will give us. If the matter is to be devolved, it is right that we should have had this debate. I am sure that Welsh Assembly Members and the Welsh Government will look what at what we have said. I look forward to hearing from the Minister.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these amendments. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for bringing the matter forward and, indeed, for admitting to a degree of “mea culpa” on earlier provisions.
The amendments would prevent individuals not resident in Wales, and not recorded as such on the electoral register, being Members of the National Assembly for Wales. As the Government committed to in the St David’s Day agreement, the Bill devolves powers over its own elections to the National Assembly for Wales. This includes the eligibility to stand as a candidate at such an election and the criteria under which a candidate may be disqualified from being an Assembly Member. These would be matters for Wales and the National Assembly for Wales. There is a slight irony in the fact that earlier we debated what “not normally” covers, yet here are seeking to legislate in areas that will now be presented to the National Assembly for discussion and decision. It is absolutely right that this area relating to electoral practice should be a matter for the National Assembly for Wales. I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Hain—and I have had lawyers look at this—that these matters will be transferred to the National Assembly for Wales and it is right that it considers them.
Very good points have been made by noble Lords in relation to the arguments. The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, spoke about the residency requirement for those who may live just over the border at Knighton—close to the station perhaps, which is in England—rather than in the town of Knighton, and so on. They are issues that the Assembly will want to look at, just as it will no doubt want to look at the point made by my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth on the choice for electors. I speak as somebody who as an Assembly Member was determined to live in the area I represented; certainly, it was true then that everybody who was in the National Assembly for Wales lived in Wales. These are valid points for the Assembly to look at; they are not matters that we should pontificate on. With respect, I therefore ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.
Lord Hain
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. I will briefly respond to his points at the end of my remarks.
When I moved this rather innocent, inconspicuous amendment, I had no idea that it would provoke such a rich debate about political principles, political theory and the nature of democracy; it has been very instructive and valuable indeed. My noble friend Lord Murphy really came to the nub of the matter when he said that this was about a country’s parliamentary legislature. This is something very precious to Wales and which needs to be given proper respect. That, in a way, links to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, which she expressed very eloquently indeed. She said that Assembly Members should—by living in Wales, in this case—be subject themselves to the laws that they are passing and subject themselves to the policies that they are instrumental in enacting.
The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, made a number of interesting points, but at one point he was almost saying that there should be no restrictions at all on candidature, or at least on Assembly Members. The main gist of his argument was about candidates, and I anticipated that, with my noble friend Lord Murphy, with our Amendment 21, as did the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, with his amendment. I do not think that this is the same issue as that about Members of Parliament, because the constituency boundaries are not being changed by the change in the parliamentary constituencies at all. Of course, the parliamentary constituencies do not cross the border of Wales. The new legislation, if eventually enacted, does not do that either.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, about his amendment. Frankly, I could not have done as effective a job as MP for Neath as I hope that I did without living in the constituency. That means living and breathing the life of the local rugby clubs, the local businesses and the local schools and hospitals, as I did for nearly a quarter of a century. He made a series of fair points in relation to pressing his amendment, by which I am rather persuaded. We can happily concede that. He asked about the Neath by-election. I had actually bought a house in the constituency five months before that by-election, although I must admit that I had a crazy mortgage, in retrospect. That was an important principle that I, like the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, felt was right.
The noble Lord, Lord Norton, raised some very interesting points, but he seemed to offer no restrictions on where one must live in order to stand for, or be a Member of, the Assembly. You could be living anywhere—hundreds of miles away from Wales. I simply do not think that that is acceptable. My noble friend Lord Murphy made the point that, in practice, Welsh voters do not have a real choice about the particular Assembly Members they get through the regional lists, and I do not think that he addressed that point. It is, as my noble friend Lord Murphy said, a question of voting for the party.
Wales Bill
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the Wales Bill has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order:
Clauses 1 and 2, Clause 4, Schedule 3, Clauses 5 to 20, Schedule 4, Clauses 21 and 22, Clause 3, Schedules 1 and 2, Clauses 23 to 53, Schedule 5, Clause 54, Schedule 6, Clauses 55 and 56, Title.