Homelessness: Local Authority Spending

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the decrease in local authority spending since 2009 on homelessness and the number of deaths of homeless people.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, every death of someone sleeping rough on our streets or homeless is one too many. We have committed to halve rough sleeping by 2022 and end it by 2027. It is for this reason that we are undertaking a significant programme of work to address this issue, backed by over £1.2 billion-worth of funding. We believe that our approach is working and we will publish a full evaluation of the rough sleeping initiative in the summer.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

I know that the Minister shares my deep concern about those sleeping rough and so on, but the loss of billions of pounds over the past decade has affected the work that local authorities have been able to do. I have the figures; we shared them the last time we discussed this. In 2010, we had 1,786 rough sleepers; by last year, there were 4,677. There is something wrong here. We also have the figures for deaths of rough sleepers on the streets. In 2014, there were 475 deaths; in 2017, there were 597. This is not progress. Can we have a pledge that when the comprehensive spending review is undertaken it will restore the benefits that are so necessary for local councils to meet this need?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord and I did indeed exchange views on this previously. The difference in the way spending is dealt with is that the ring-fence was taken off in 2009—actually under the Labour Government. It carried on like that through the coalition years, with which the noble Lord will be familiar, and still remains the case. We need also to focus on the fact that money is spent centrally, in addition to what is spent locally. The £100 million announced in August last year is beginning to have an effect. To take an example of an authority, in Brighton and Hove there were 178 rough sleepers in 2017; in 2018, there were 64. Admittedly there are nuances of difference in the way the figures are calculated, but not enough to account for that significant difference. That spending is going on, and we have a Minister dedicated to this area of activity.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister will agree that one of the most important things with regard to homelessness is churn. If people fall homeless then they should be moved on. Has the Minister looked at the possibility of adopting the PECC method, which I have talked to him about? It is about prevention, emergency, coping and cure. He could then look at the money spent on the projects: is it keeping people lingering in the limbo of homelessness, preventing them becoming homeless or helping them to get out? We have to use something like the PECC method. It is free to the Minister—I invented it; there is no cost.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

It is good to hear from the noble Lord. I pay tribute to what he does on the rough sleeping advisory committee; I know that he is doing very worthwhile work. There is much to commend PECC, as he says. Yesterday, I was in Redbridge, which is adopting Project Malachi, which we are helping to fund and which is connected with work. This sort of thing is the way forward. It is not the total answer, as I am sure the noble Lord will agree, but it certainly makes a big difference.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, could the Minister confirm that one of the real problems underlying the Question from my noble friend, which he replied to in terms of funding, is the massive cuts in local government funding since the coalition and the Labour Government? This has been seen in the last week with a large care home going into administration. Other care home firms have gone into administration. The main reason for that is the discounts on care home fees that local governments have to have. The care home’s financial plan therefore does not work because of the cuts in local government.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord refers to a particular area where there is certainly a problem: social care. We await the social care Green Paper, which will helpfully inform us in this particular area. He will acknowledge—as will many other noble Lords across the Chamber—that this year, for the first time in a long while, there has been an increase in local government core spending. It is welcome, and I hope it will continue as austerity comes to an end.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, what progress have the Government made in their assessment of the impact of social security cuts and restrictions on levels of homelessness and rough sleeping?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, as always, the noble Baroness raises a very valid point. It is important to look at the link between different government departments and different areas of activities. This is a complex area. It is not just about spending; there are issues of addiction as well. I will write to the noble Baroness on that particular point, and copy it to the Library.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

I welcome the significant sums that the Government are investing in this area. Can the Minister indicate what progress is being made in securing hostel beds in London for men and women with drug and alcohol problems, and in securing move-on accommodation for them?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Earl is right about the particular challenges in relation to addiction. He will know that we have designated 83 areas that are receiving assistance in relation to rough sleeping, which helps with hostel spending. They include all of the London boroughs and all of our big cities. I will write to him so that we can share it more widely, and ensure that the list of money going to those local authorities is in that letter and is copied to the Library.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, today we have local government elections, so it is important to recognise that the £16 billion that has been lost in the reduction of core funding to local government since 2010 cannot be matched by the £100 million—welcome though it is—that the Government intend to spend centrally. That will not solve the problem of homelessness. What will solve it is our local authorities having sufficient funding to be able to reduce homelessness, as we did during the Labour years.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I repeat to the noble Baroness that the ring-fence came off under the last Labour Government. She is right about reductions, but it is not simply about local government spending. A lot of spending has come from religious and faith institutions, which we are helping with—and I cited the example I saw yesterday. A lot of good work is going on in authorities up and down the country, with money being spent on, for example, hubs to help with homelessness in Brighton and Hove. It is also important to make this distinction: I was speaking about rough sleeping, not homelessness. Homelessness is a much broader issue, as the noble Baroness will know, and presents very different challenges from the issue of rough sleeping. The figures we have been looking at are largely on rough sleeping, not homelessness.

Residential Construction and Housing Supply

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

That this House takes note of the residential construction sector, modern methods of construction, and the steps being taken to boost the housing supply in a sustainable way.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for the delay to this debate—by either three weeks or three hours depending on which calendar you are working from—but it is a great pleasure to introduce it. We will be looking at the residential construction sector and focusing in particular on modern methods of construction and the steps being taken to boost housing supply sustainably. I am grateful to noble Lords who have given up their time to be part of the debate and to share their experience and knowledge of this important issue.

We all recognise that the country does not have enough homes. For decades, the pace of housebuilding has been much too slow, which has meant that the number of new homes has not kept pace with our growing population. We are now building the homes that our country needs so that everyone can afford a place to call their own, helping people on to the housing ladder and restoring the dream of home ownership—but of course looking at diversity of supply at the same time.

Last year we delivered 222,000 new homes—the highest number in a decade and up 2% on the previous year. To address the housing shortage, the Government have reaffirmed their commitment to deliver 300,000 homes a year by the middle of the next decade. However, the way in which the housebuilding market operates constrains the supply of new homes, because there is insufficient competition and innovation. That is why, back in February 2017, the Government’s housing White Paper recognised the potential to diversify the market and set out clear measures for how we would do this, including by backing small and medium-sized builders to grow; supporting custom build homes to access land and finance; encouraging more institutional investors into housing, including the build-to-rent sector; and supporting housing associations and local authorities to build more homes. We have been actively implementing the commitments that we made.

We also recognise that building more homes requires a modern construction industry with greater capacity to deliver. Building more homes using modern methods of construction—MMC—including off-site and smart techniques, is a key part of this.

A number of reviews have highlighted the challenges faced by the industry. For instance, in 2016 the Government commissioned Mark Farmer to carry out a review of the construction labour market. His report, Modernise or Die, set out the skills challenge facing the construction industry and the need to improve the construction labour market by increasing productivity and innovation, including the use of modern methods of construction in housebuilding as a test case for construction more widely. I had a very useful engagement with Mark Farmer at our recent design conference in Birmingham. We agreed on the need for action to drive the Government’s agenda to increase uptake of MMC.

In addition, the report of the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee’s inquiry into off-site manufacture in 2018 across the construction sector as a whole, Off-site Manufacture for Construction, is extremely helpful and provides food for thought.

We have looked to other countries too, particularly across Europe, where MMC is embedded within the delivery model and is therefore widely used and accepted, to help inform our initiatives. Countries such as Sweden have shown how it is possible to innovate the market with MMC techniques, building more homes than traditional models allow, and delivering good-quality, efficient homes that are embraced by the public. I know that Britain can become a world leader in MMC and I want to work with the sector to make that ambition a reality. I am committed to delivering the Government’s ambitions to build more of the right homes in the right places, and keen to play a major part in delivering the ambitious package in the housing White Paper to fix the housing market.

As many noble Lords will know, I am very keen on better design and quality. Lack of diversity and competition has not been good for innovation and productivity. This is why the Government have made design quality of homes a top priority and have strengthened the importance of design quality in our revised national planning policy framework, which was announced by the Prime Minister at a national conference of planners a year ago, in March 2018. I am pleased that convening the Building Better, Building Beautiful Commission is a step in the right direction towards delivering on this priority. We have also recently announced the appointment of a head of architecture in the department. He is working to create a cross-government network to promote good design, developing a design manual to underpin design quality in national policy and ensuring that design quality criteria are embedded in government programmes.

For too long we have been overly reliant on a small group of large developers delivering in mostly traditional ways. To increase rapidly the pace of building and reach our housing delivery ambitions, we need to increase the range of producers in the market and the types of homes that they are delivering. We need a market that is more focused on the consumer, delivering to those parts of the market that are currently not well served—in short, a diversified market that can lead to more homes being delivered faster, with significant financial benefits, while delivering high-quality new-build homes. I know that modern methods of construction have a key role in powering the future of housebuilding, building high-quality homes with a smaller carbon footprint at a much faster pace, while embracing the latest technology and promoting British jobs.

New technology and innovation has improved productivity, quality and choice across a range of sectors in the United Kingdom, and we want to see the same happen in housing. We have been actively implementing the commitments we made in the housing White Paper to diversify the housing market. We are backing our housebuilders to deliver, with £2.5 billion of our £4.5 billion Home Building Fund, which particularly champions SMEs and more diverse builders to harness MMC and other cutting-edge building technologies. For example, we recently announced £9 million of funding from the Home Building Fund for a deal with Apex Airspace to deliver homes on London rooftops. These rooftop properties will be built on five sites across the capital: Tooting, Wanstead, Walthamstow, Putney and Wallington. They will be largely constructed off site before being winched on top of buildings, minimising disruption to residents. It is expected that the first three sites, comprising 32 homes, will be ready by this summer.

We have also delivered on our commitment to set up a joint MMC working group with lenders, valuers and the industry to overcome existing uncertainties about the performance and durability of MMC homes and their acceptability for warranty and insurance, and to identify measures that could give greater confidence in the quality of these homes, to allow lenders to overcome their existing caution and increase lending to match that of traditional builds. At the design conference I referenced in Birmingham, I announced one of the outcomes of our MMC working group’s work: an agreed definition and categorisation for all MMC. This definition framework has now been published on GOV.UK and will help guarantee consistency in MMC definition and categorisation across the sector. This is perhaps not glittering and exciting at first sight, but it is extremely important in ensuring that we have standardisation and the ability to move forward in helping people borrow money.

The group is also finalising details of its most important output: a unified quality assurance scheme for assessing all new technologies to guarantee their acceptability for mortgages and warranties, which will be launched this summer. All these are key parts of making sure that we use more off-site construction to meet our challenges. The Government are also keen to see local authorities go further, and the £450 million local authority accelerated construction programme will take direct action to disrupt the market in a new and innovative way. Furthermore, our affordable homes programme encourages bidders to use innovative ways of building. Homes England is working with 23 strategic partnerships—this was announced at the end of last year—and so far all 23 have indicated that they will incorporate MMC in meeting the challenge of providing more homes.

There is a real opportunity to seize the benefits of new technology here. It is encouraging to see new entrants into the field, such as Ilke Homes from Yorkshire, which plans to deliver 2,000 MMC homes per year in the next two years, and TopHat of Derbyshire, with capacity to deliver 2,000 homes per year across the country, as well as interest from housing associations such as Swan Housing, which opened its factory in Basildon in 2017. In addition, local authorities around England also recognise the benefits of MMC and are interested in supporting the growth of this innovative approach to housebuilding.

It is important that large housebuilders, too, see a role in this. The Government want to create a shared vision for a diversified housing market that embraces innovation, and we look to large suppliers too. It is encouraging to hear about some large developers, such as Barratt, Berkeley, L&Q and Crest Nicholson, which are already embracing MMC and actively looking into future opportunities. The Government expect other large developers to embrace this agenda as well. Diversifying the market, both by increasing the mix of producers and tenures and ensuring that it delivers a greater variety of products, will result in additional homes. These are challenges that we must respond to.

We announced £34 million at Budget 2017 for construction skills: this will also help. I know that there are still many out there who have yet to see how using MMC can benefit them and their customers. We want to support the industry to showcase what it can achieve. We want to see solutions that increase productivity and quality. We also want to challenge the public perception of MMC homes and give customers information about new technology, how it works and what the benefits are. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords across the Chamber for some notable contributions to an extremely important debate on many important areas of policy. It is certainly a subject to which I am very much committed. I will say at the outset that I will ensure that any points I miss in the relatively limited time I have left are picked up afterwards. I will write to noble Lords who have participated in the debate and leave a copy in the Library. I will also ensure that Mark Farmer receives a copy of the debate and I shall be keen to follow up points with him afterwards, which is important. I will also ensure that other government departments receive a copy of the debate, which has been very far-reaching.

I am certainly an idealist, but an idealist without illusions. That is the way I hope to respond to the debate. I am used to being called to account for issues relating to communities, local government and housing—that is fair enough—but one or two points were about the global challenge of climate change. I am always grateful to noble Lords who exaggerate my powers, but some of those matters are perhaps a bit more cosmic. I very much identify with the Greta Thunberg contribution; it is important that we listen to young people with that idealism and act accordingly. I was very pleased that Michael Gove responded very positively to what she said. If I may, I shall pick up some of those points later.

I shall deal with the contributions in the order in which they were made by noble Lords. Again, forgive me if I miss points; they will be picked up later by the team. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, made a very positive contribution. I thank her very much for her support for many of the things that we are doing. She talked about tackling the big boys—and presumably, in a spirit of non-sexism, the big girls—and ensuring that the larger developers deliver. I think I have indicated before that we are looking closely at the big developers to ensure that they are giving value for public money and treating consumers properly. We still have concerns and we are watching them like hawks.

The noble Baroness mentioned the Building Research Establishment in Watford. I should also like to mention the very good and helpful work it does, and has done since 2005, on modern methods of construction. She mentioned the current work on modern methods of construction to help with climate change. For example, Specific, which is based in Swansea and is in receipt of government funding, is very much doing that. She also mentioned dementia-friendly housing and so on. The possibilities are considerable and it is important that we take them all on board. She also mentioned the skills shortage, which I did reference in my initial speech. Mark Farmer has reported on this, and we are acting on the earlier review. I will, if I may, expand on that in a letter.

I turn to my noble friend Lord Patten, who first of all challenged us on what examples of modern methods of construction homes can be seen. The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, also raised that issue. There are some modern methods of construction homes that can be seen, for example in Gateshead—the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, will probably be aware of those at the Gateshead Innovation Village—and in North Shields at Smith’s Dock. There are also some in Yorkshire at Derwenthorpe and they are, I think, being developed in Basildon, where Swan Housing has delivered some homes with housing association partners. Those are some specific examples, and I will give further details in the letter.

My noble friend Lord Patten also asked about the definition of “sustainability” in housing. It is in the National Planning Policy Framework, which gives quite a long definition and talks about the three overarching objectives—economic, social and environmental. Again, I will give further details of that in the letter.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, very much indeed for the positive points she made; I know that she comes with considerable experience as chair of the National Housing Federation. She talked quite rightly about the barriers to modern methods of construction, which we are addressing through the working group led by Mark Farmer, and, very importantly, the issues of the risk to buyers and the availability of money to borrow and so on. She was absolutely right on that. She also talked about the standardisation of some features—again, the working group is looking at that, and I accept its importance. She talked about the “drumbeat of demand”. That is a very good phrase, if I may say so, and it is important—without the demand, it is not much good putting resources here. We hope to tackle this through the work the group is doing.

My noble friend Lord Borwick talked about the challenge of homes having appropriate access and the London factor—not that there is a different standard, but in terms of the percentage of homes available. I understand the concern, and it will be looked at when we review Part M, which is due to start shortly. Part M is part of the Hackitt review of building regulations, and of the commitment post-Grenfell to look at accessibility. It is important to note, if I may say so to my noble friend Lord Shinkwin, that it is not just about planning; it is about building regulations, which are key to getting this right. The Building Regulations Advisory Committee is due to report shortly to the department on Part M, and I hope that we can respond positively. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, very much for what she said about people at times being prisoners in their own homes; that is a very graphic description of what happens. She is right that some planning authorities take this issue more seriously than others; that is why the work on the building regulations is so important. I hope that helps her on the timescale, but I will try to expand on that in a letter as well.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, who is really the eminence grise in this area, if I may say so. To have praise from him for what we are doing means a lot. I know the work that he has been doing, and I thank him for it. He talked about the triumph of good sense. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, also talked about the importance of a growing consensus on many of these issues. I am very keen to establish that; it is the best way of moving things forward. There is a consensus in the House on many of these issues—not necessarily on everything, but certainly on the macro position. There may be differences on some of the micro, but if we can agree on the macro that will be a good start; maybe we can agree on some of the micro as well. I thank the noble Lord very much for what he said and the work he is doing. He will know that we are doing work on the Housing Ombudsman service, leaseholder reform and so on. There is a lot happening in the department. I am not sure I was terribly flattered by that being characterised as U-turns—touches on the tiller would certainly be a true description. I am very grateful for what he said.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, for the positive stance he took, and as another inhabitant of the borough of Barnet, I know that he is absolutely right that the MMC, which came of age after the war, is still very much intact in Barnet. That demonstrates how homes can be made durable, which is something we have to ensure with the new generation of modern methods of construction. He also talked about the large property developers and the aftercare that they provide—and, in one or two cases, sadly do not provide. As I say, we are looking at that. He asked about standardisation of products, which is important, and the working group is looking at that as well.

My noble friend Lord Haselhurst talked about his home area in the Saffron Walden constituency. The garden community that was approved in March 2019—in Uttlesford and in West Braintree, just over the border—will I am sure be of interest to him. From memory, that will have about 19,000 homes, and it will make a difference in what is clearly a lovely area. I do not want to add to the housing pressures on that area, as he and I have now both praised it and said how lovely it is. However, work is going on there. On housing infrastructure, work is certainly going on in Cambridgeshire; I am not quite sure whether there is a housing infrastructure bid with regard to Uttlesford, but I will try to pick that up later in a letter.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, also talked about the large providers, which seems to have been a common theme. I thank him very much for what he does and for his work in this area. He is absolutely right that we need to watch the large providers, and that we need to support the small and medium-sized enterprises, which, as he knows, we are seeking to do. He talked about decarbonisation as part of the delivery by MMC. In a way it is like spinning plates, keeping all these things in the air at once. The carbon challenge is one of the things that MMC can help us deliver on, as well as providing British jobs, providing housing more quickly, and responding to the sort of design that people need, so we need to do that. The noble Earl talked about construction skills as well; of course, I mentioned the Farmer report, which made some recommendations in that regard. The DfE has invested money in the ConstructionSkills council, which will help with that.

My noble friend Lord Bethell spoke about the importance of ensuring, in relation to disability, that we build homes for the future. It is true that that will affect all of us, our relations and our friends. We have to realise that this is a necessary ingredient, not a desirable one, and I hope that this will inform the review of Part M when that comes forward. He talked about the HomeOwners Alliance; I will have a look at that and take it back to the department with regard to the snagging retention—it certainly looks as though it is worth looking at. He will appreciate that I am certainly not in a position to make commitments on behalf of the Chancellor, but it looks like something we should be looking at, and I will certainly do that.

On the issue of carbon and climate change, as always, the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, brings her considerable experience in this area to the fore. There were some detailed questions there—I will write to her on some of the detailed points and I thank her very much for nodding in agreement to that. I agree with her very much on the importance of delivering on the climate change agenda. That was also touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, who has had experience in this department and will know of the need to reduce that 30% contribution to carbon that is generated by homes; we need to focus attention on the two areas of cars and homes, and we are seeking to do that. On that particular point on energy, we are seeking to tighten the energy efficiency rules shortly, which we committed to do. We have had a 30% improvement since 2010 and want to take that further, and I think that would have the support of the House.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, raised the issue of local government discretion on planning re sustainability. I am happy to meet her about this, but if she is talking to specific examples, perhaps those involved could write into the department with their particular circumstances. They will almost certainly vary from authority to authority, and I would not want to give a sweeping view here, but we will be keen to look at them and try to help. She also asked about the policy on zero-carbon homes. The Chancellor announced the future homes standard in the Spring Statement and committed to adopting it by 2025 but, again, I will give her more details in writing, if I may.

I have mentioned points that my noble friend Lord Shinkwin raised on the building regulations to come shortly as a consequence of the Hackitt review. I thank him very much for what he said from the heart about the importance of accessibility. That is absolutely right, and that is across the housing sector.

Once again, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins of Tavistock, for her positive tone about these measures helping with energy efficiency and improving productivity. As she said: what is not to like about this? I will have a close look at the university hospital’s digital progress to which she referred: that looks very interesting in this context. She also talked about the need to ensure that we have policy that will carry us forward. I have mentioned specific examples of money we have invested in south Wales. The Farmer working group is key to ensuring that that is more widely available, but workforce skills are also very important.

My noble friend Lord Caithness rightly talked about his career as a Minister, so he is very familiar with some of the challenges we face. I am sure that the report on the rural economy will, now that he has given his advertisement, be in my box, and I encourage my team to ensure that it is. I look forward very much to reading it. He talked about the five challenges of land and finance skills and Section 106. I mentioned skills, but I shall seek to enlarge on that in the written response that I make to Members. He also asked about the National Infrastructure Commission and the restriction on building on gardens. There is progress on which I shall update him in writing, if I may.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, for his points on quality and quantity being the two challenges and the need for review of energy standards, which I have talked about, and financial support for MMC. I genuinely thank him very much for his welcome. As I said, we have examples on which I shall expand where we have MMC working in Gateshead, Tyneside, Basildon and Derwenthorpe. We hope to have many more in future.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, will know that I have great respect for what he does in this House, whatever our political differences. He is a public servant of long-standing, and it is worth marking the long period of his councillorship in Tyneside, where he has done much over the years with great distinction. I thank him for his contribution and for welcoming some of what we are doing. Understandably, he focused on some local government issues, although it is worth noting that there has been an increase in local government core spending in real terms this year, which was welcomed by the leader of the Local Government Association. To local government core spending, we can add spending on metro mayors, the stronger towns fund and many specific funds which increase the amount available in a local area. However, I appreciate that he is quite right that there is a challenge on homelessness. We have made some progress in the past year, although there is much still to do. I will enlarge on that, too, in the letter, if I may.

In conclusion, I thank noble Lords very much indeed for what has been, although delayed, a very important and useful debate for all of us. It has been very useful for the Government. I will ensure that points I have not mentioned are picked up and that we circulate what was an excellent debate very widely.

Motion agreed.

Public Conveniences

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Thursday 11th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they have taken to encourage local authorities to improve the provision of public conveniences to address health issues faced by taxi drivers as a result of their closure.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the importance of public lavatories as valuable community amenities. At Budget 2018, the Chancellor announced 100% business rate relief for public lavatories in England. This will cut the cost of running these important facilities and help to keep them open.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response to an important Question. London’s provision of public loos is lamentable in terms of both availability and cleanliness. This impacts on our tourists, the young, the elderly and the disabled, but also on London cabbies, a disproportionate number of whom suffer from kidney problems and UTIs. Many London hotels have now stopped allowing taxi drivers to use their facilities, although I commend Pret A Manger for its policy of allowing cabbies to access its loos. What further measures will the Government take to encourage councils and perhaps also businesses to restore and maintain decent public loos?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for a genuinely important Question. I will pick up two points. First, Changing Places helps with the provision of disabled lavatory facilities. That is important nationwide—we have about 11,000 of them. Secondly, I, too, give a shout out for Pret A Manger, which is helping by making its lavatories available. That is part of community schemes that we are promoting up and down the country. These started in Richmond upon Thames in 2004, where, in addition to public lavatories, local businesses make their lavatories available. That is advertised locally and on apps in the area.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I come from a family of London cab drivers and very much welcome the Question. Does the Minister join me in welcoming the British Toilet Association’s Use Our Loos campaign, where pubs, cafés and other places allow people other than customers to use their toilets? Does he also welcome the trend at some mainline stations, such as London Bridge, Charing Cross and St Pancras, where the toilets are now free? I am waiting for Euston and Waterloo to follow suit.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, on the cabbies’ business, the noble Lord told me how his brother drove past him in his cab the other day—I could well understand his point of view. The noble Lord mentioned the important Use Our Loos campaign, which the British Toilet Association is supportive of—I was going to say “behind”. Unfortunately, it is advertised on its website as an “open doors” campaign—the inverted commas are useful. Seriously, it is a very worthwhile campaign. I have good news on Waterloo. All the mainline stations in London now have free toilet entrance, which is a good thing. The Department for Transport is encouraging other train operators to do similarly.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned Changing Places. The disabled community and disabled taxi drivers are very grateful for the £2 million that the Department for Transport was given for Changing Places at service stations. However, provision is still woeful—only 18 out of 100 service stations have Changing Places facilities. Will the Government provide specific grants to local authorities for Changing Places toilets? With public conveniences being closed down everywhere, disabled people, particularly disabled children, need proper places for changing. There is a woeful lack of them in town centres.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I know that the noble Baroness campaigns vigorously and correctly on these issues and she is absolutely right about their importance. She will be pleased to know that the NHS has also been the recipient of £2 million to spend on Changing Places, but she is right that more needs to be done. We are looking at how we can make progress on this.

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB)]

One of my sons has Crohn’s, a disease that many noble Lords will know results all too often in sufferers being caught drastically short in public. A particular charity issues them with a “Can’t Wait” card, which explains in simple terms why the holder has an urgent need for a toilet. It generally gains them speedy access to WCs in stores, restaurants and so forth—such is the kindness of strangers. Is there not room for a broadly similar scheme to be devised for taxi drivers by their association, at least in the medium and short term, to meet the ever increasing want of public conveniences?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for that personalised example of the challenges that we face. I am interested to know about the “Can’t Wait” card, which I had not previously heard about. He is right that one of the big issues is not the availability of public lavatories—although it is true that their numbers have declined—but, often, the inability to park nearby because of yellow and double yellow lines, which is a particular concern for taxi drivers. If I may, I will take that issue back to see if there is any way for us to use the “Can’t Wait” card in relation to public lavatories.

[Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)]

My Lords, tourists worldwide judge places by the toilet facilities. Vast numbers of tourists come to this country. I have just come back from Australia and I have been all round Europe in the past few weeks; the quality of the toilet facilities in cities there is vastly higher than in ours. Taking account of nearly 50 tours here per day, where people with children need to go to a toilet, this seems extremely important. Will the Minister consider the fact that we need to build more toilets and that they must be impeccably clean, as they are elsewhere?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend makes some interesting points. To be honest, quality overseas is variable, but there are certainly some good examples of the provision of public lavatories. In the 72 hours since I inherited this Question, I have been looking at this issue to see what is happening. It is a very interesting area and a genuinely important one.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I sense the House getting a little frivolous on the last day of term. I will take back the noble Lord’s points about the provision of an adequate number of facilities. Locally, along with car parking charges, this issue concerns people. We all know in local government that the things that exercise people are car parking charges and public lavatories. They are important.

Greater Manchester Combined Authority (Functions and Amendment) Order 2019

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd April 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 30 January be approved.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, 10 orders have already been made in relation to the Greater Manchester Combined Authority. If approved by Parliament and made, this 11th order will be the next step in bringing to life the five devolution deals which the Government have agreed with Greater Manchester since 2014. It fulfils the commitment that the Government made to the combined authority in the first devolution deal, agreed in November 2014, that the mayor would have powers over bus franchising and smart ticketing.

As agreed by Greater Manchester, the order makes the mayor responsible for all operational matters relating to bus services. It will enable the mayor to fund and deliver improved bus services across Greater Manchester. This means that people will be able to see clearly who is responsible for changes to bus services and hold the mayor to account for this. It will also replace the existing Transport for Greater Manchester Committee with a new committee of the same name, chaired by the mayor and with representatives of all the constituent councils, to co-ordinate transport across Greater Manchester.

This order will be made, if Parliament approves, under the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, as amended by the Cities and Local Government Devolution Act 2016. As required by the 2016 Act, along with this order we have laid a report which provides details about the provisions for the transfer of powers on concessionary bus fares from Transport for Greater Manchester to the combined authority, to be exercised by the mayor.

Before laying this order, the Secretary of State has considered the statutory requirements in the 2009 Act. He is satisfied that these requirements are met. In short, he considers that making the amendments to the combined authority’s powers would be likely to lead to an improvement in the exercise of the statutory functions across the Greater Manchester area. He has also had regard to the impact on local government and the identities and interests of local communities. Further, as required by statute, the 10 constituent councils, the mayor and the combined authority have consented to the making of this order.

I turn to the details of the draft order, which builds on the powers that were given to combined authorities when the Bus Services Act came into force. This Act gave mayoral combined authorities new powers to improve bus services in their areas using a range of options such as smart ticketing, bus franchising and partnership delivery models with bus operators. The order we are debating gives responsibility for those powers, which are currently exercisable by the combined authority, to the mayor. This also means that the mayor will be able to raise a precept to pay for these changes. Currently, the councils that make up the combined authority pay for transport through a levy issued by that authority.

In addition, the order transfers the concessionary travel power from Transport for Greater Manchester, which is the public body responsible for delivering transport services across Greater Manchester, to the mayor. Reimbursing bus operators in Greater Manchester for both mandatory and discretionary fares and subsidies currently costs £86.7 million, funded by the 10 constituent councils. This order means that the constituent councils will carry on paying for these fares and subsidies to fund bus services, but caps the amount at £86.7 million. If the mayor wants to provide further funding for buses, he will have to do it through his mayoral precept.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant registered interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. Like my noble friend Lord Bradley and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, I very much welcome this order. It is another part of the transfer of powers to the northern powerhouse, to the mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, and to the combined authority. It will be able to deliver bus franchising, smart ticketing and the multimodal ticketing system that my noble friend talked about.

I was involved in the passage of the Bus Services Act through your Lordships’ House and I am very supportive of bus franchising; the mayor will be able to set the fares, the routes and the timetables and the bus companies can then deliver those services. I think that is a very good way forward and I endorse what my noble friend Lord Bradley said: I hope that the Mayor of Greater Manchester will be able to move forward and introduce bus franchising, which is what people want to see locally.

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, raised a number of questions I was going to raise, so I hope he will get a response. They were about the taxation trap—we clearly have the same briefing—and the issue of the oversight committee, so I look forward to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, on those matters and on the question raised by my noble friend Lord Bradley about bus passes for16 to 18 year-olds. I shall leave the matter there because those points have been raised. As I said, I very much support the introduction of the order, like the other noble Lords who have spoken.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who have participated in the debate on this important SI. It is worth noting that in the other place there was just one contribution from the Official Opposition, which welcomed the SI and commended the Government for acting very quickly in bringing it forward following the request from Greater Manchester. I am very grateful for that support in the other place.

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, rightly referred to the civic pride and sense of togetherness in Manchester, and the rivalry between some of the boroughs and authorities that now make up the Greater Manchester Combined Authority. All that is absolutely true—I was in Manchester recently and saw the strength of the Manchester area. Of course, we were all very conscious of that at the time of the dreadful terrorist attack on the Manchester Arena—the sense of coming together in the area was very strong. I was there recently to launch the ESOL funding programme. There was a very good bid from Manchester and I was very conscious, again, of the sense of coming together and civic pride.

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, also asked about financial arrangements, particularly in relation to the mayoral precept. It is the position that the mayor makes proposals which can be overturned by a two-thirds vote, which is a veto of seven of the 10 authorities. The noble Lord went on to ask about measures in relation to oversight in this committee. It is a streamlined committee, a fact welcomed by the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, for which I am very grateful. The order reflects the request for flexibility on the membership of the committee. Greater Manchester asked for the reduction to 23 members, and based on what the noble Lord was saying about responding to the bottom-up approach and sensing what is important in the area, we went along with the request. We judged that it is reasonable and will lead, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, said, to more streamlined decision-making. I think it maintains—not in the same proportions, I accept—some of the checks and balances that are needed.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, for saying that transferring powers to the Mayor of Manchester is a step in the right direction. Although the mayor is not of my politics I think that people locally recognise that he has been doing a good job and giving some sense of direction to Manchester. That is a good thing and it is true of all our metro mayors. It is something we should welcome widely and, as the noble Lord rightly said, it opens up possibilities in relation to the franchising schemes and so on as well. I confirm that I think it does underpin the costs of the young people’s passes in relation to the financial settlement.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for the welcome he gave to the order; he reiterated some of the questions I hope I have dealt with. This is an important part of the suite of powers that were promised to Manchester: we have been listening to the people of Manchester and responding to what they have asked for, and this represents another step in that journey. I am very grateful to the support given by noble Lords and I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Rough Sleeping

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Monday 1st April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will take immediate steps to tackle the issue of rough sleeping.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to ending rough sleeping by 2027, with the aim of halving it by 2022. We are already taking action. Last year we published a cross-government strategy backed by £100 million of funding. The rough sleepers initiative launched a year ago has provided over 1,750 new bed spaces and 500 staff to support rough sleepers since March 2018. It is making an impact: in rough sleepers initiative areas, rough sleeping has decreased by 19% in the last year.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, but it does not add up to the figures I have. I have been told that in 2010 we had 1,786 rough sleepers, but last year we had 4,677—nearly triple the number in 2010. Even if, as a result of the new strategy, we halve the number sleeping rough, the figure will still be higher than in 2010. Why is this? There are many reasons, but one of course is loss of hostel beds. In Tower Hamlets, for example, 1,400 hostel beds have been lost in the last three years. It does not add up. I suggest that we look at this again. We should also look at the Vagrancy Act 1824, which has seen the arrest of thousands of people sleeping rough, some of whom are imprisoned. That should certainly be revoked, so I ask the Government—

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

I am sorry that I take too long; it is never my fault. We certainly need two things: a massive investment in those organisations that provide the beds and the end of the Vagrancy Act.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord referred to the statistics and said that there were 4,677 rough sleepers in 2018, but he did not go on to say that that was a fall since 2017, when there had been 4,751. The trend is in a downwards direction, which the noble Lord omitted to say. Also, he cited Tower Hamlets, which is of course receiving money as a rough sleeping initiative area, which he will be pleased to know. That money will have a continuing impact as we see those figures coming down. He is right that more needs to be done, but we are investing more money. We have just announced another 53 areas that are benefiting from the rapid rehousing pathways money, which is part of the initiative. We are looking at a review of the Vagrancy Act. I can offer the noble Lord comfort on that point.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, a few months ago the Secretary of State for HCLG acknowledged that there might be a link between rough sleeping and so-called welfare reform. He said that we,

“need to ask ourselves some very hard questions”.

What steps are the Government therefore taking to investigate and act on the links between social security cuts and rough sleeping, identified by both research and organisations on the ground?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I know that the noble Baroness has done much work in this area. Indeed, we have done some work in a related area. I know she will be pleased about the money being invested, particularly regarding women rough sleepers, which is part of this area. There are many different aspect to this; it is across the board. Obviously in MHCLG we are focusing on money specifically for the housing aspects, but she is right that we need to look at a broader front, and we are doing so.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of a particular problem in Westminster of rough sleeping in tents? Two things arise from that. First, there is the concern that drug dealing might be going on in the tents. Secondly, although they have powers, the police are reluctant to be too aggressive in addressing the problem.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, once again, my noble friend refers to a different aspect of this. He is right that sensitive policing often helps to tackle these issues. I know that police throughout the country are very aware of that. He is also right that there is a complex range of issues, including addiction, which is very much related to rough sleeping. We are intent on trying to deal with that, as we are with other aspects. For example, a lot of people who sleep rough have come from a secure background, sometimes prison and sometimes the Armed Forces. It is a much more complex issue than just the finances, although that is an important part of it.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my registered interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. In addition to the figures that the noble Lord gave about individual change from year to year, could he set out why he believes homelessness has more than trebled since 2010?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right that the figures have gone up relentlessly over a period of time, until this last year, which I think was in response to the money that has been invested and the concentration the Government are putting on this. As I indicated in my earlier response, it is a much more complex issue than just the money. It is related to addiction, mental health and people in a secure environment. We are looking at this on a broad front. As the noble Lord will appreciate, it is a very complex problem, but I am pleased that the money we are spending on the rough sleeping initiative and have invested in the rapid rehousing pathway has succeeded in bringing the figures down by assigning, for example, individuals to look after particular people who are rough sleeping to see what is the particular issue for them, because every person is an individual and every case is different.

[The Lord Bishop of Peterborough]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the answers he has given so far and for the Government’s investment. In the city of Peterborough we have seen, as in many other places, a large increase in rough sleeping. The third sector groups, including the churches, have been doing a great deal to support rough sleepers, but one of the problems we are very conscious of is how tight money is for local government. Does he agree that local government financial settlements could be part of the solution, with targeted money to local government specifically to help rough sleepers?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate makes a perfectly fair point. He will be conscious of the fact that, by a relatively small amount, the financial settlement for local government this year was an increase in resources for core funding in real terms. Also, I can offer him some very good news in relation to Peterborough, which is again a rough sleeping initiative area, as he is probably aware. The Government are also putting in direct funding related to integration in Peterborough, because it is one of our five integration areas.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, raised a point about the Vagrancy Act, which is often a point of contention with the police and those who live on the street. Can the Minister tell us when the review that he mentioned will conclude? I have been asked to chair a debate in the next two weeks about the decriminalisation of living on the streets. It is not about all aspects of the vagrancy laws, but specifically about living on the streets, and blaming a person for something that, generally, they have no control over.

A point was just raised about living in tents. I have recently heard that some people released from prison are being given a tent because they cannot get accommodation. I do not expect the Minister to be able to answer that easily, but can someone from the Government see whether that is accurate? It sounds unfair and not a good idea.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, to begin with the noble Lord’s second point—I know nothing of that. It sounds, on the surface, alarming. If the noble Lord has further information, I would be grateful if he could see me, and then certainly I will investigate.

Regarding the Vagrancy Act, again, I will have to write to the noble Lord. I do not know when the consultation and review are ending. I agree with him that there are aspects which require attention, but once again, it is probably more complex than it looks. However, I will write to him on that issue.

Meat: Ritual Slaughter and Religious Freedom

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Thursday 28th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of developments including the judgment of the Court of Justice of the European Union of 26 February Œuvre d’assistance aux bêtes d’abattoirs v Ministre de l’Agriculture et de l’Alimentation (C–497/17) that meat prepared according to the rules of religious slaughter cannot be classed as organic, what plans they have to encourage a wider debate about the space for practice in accordance with religious rights that respects human rights and equalities laws.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government note the judgment that EU law does not authorise the placing of the EU organic production logo on products derived from animals that have been slaughtered in accordance with religious rites without first being stunned. The ruling will apply in the UK but, in any event, since January all UK organic control bodies ceased to certify meat from non-stunned animals as organic.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. This ECJ judgment effectively means that those in the Jewish and Muslim communities who wish to purchase kosher or halal meat legally slaughtered without pre-stunning will be unable to buy products with the organic label. I am secular, but I think it is important that religious communities have the right to practise their religion, not just the right to religious belief, as long as human rights and equalities laws are respected. We are seeing not only attacks on places of worship but on matters of dress, male circumcision and time off for religious observance as well as animal slaughter. Room for religious practice is being squeezed. How will the Government promote an honest, open debate in our society about where this is going and where a reasonable settlement lies?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The first point I make to the noble Baroness, which I made in my Answer, is that prior to the judgment it was already not possible to buy organic halal or kosher meat from un-stunned animals. That was the practice from January. On her general point about religious freedoms, in this country we have some of the best protections in the world with the Equality Act and the convention on human rights. It is something of which we can be justly proud.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I draw the noble Baroness’s attention to yesterday’s Hansard, where the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is reported as saying that,

“if the Prime Minister’s deal goes through … rulings of the European Court of Justice will be directly applicable in this country … So we had better get used to it”.—[Official Report, 27/3/19; col. 1854.]

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend has already drawn the noble Baroness’s attention to that point. As I have said, this was the pre-existing practice in this country anyway, and there is no proposal to change the law in this regard.

[Lord Trees (CB)]

My Lords, in the UK a substantial amount of meat and meat products from animals killed without stunning and meant for the consumption of certain religious groups finds its way into the general food chain. What are the Government doing to prevent that or to ensure that there is adequate labelling of meat and meat products so that consumers can make an informed choice about what to eat?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has indicated that it will look at labelling in the round to ensure that we take account of consumer demand. Therefore, that is something that we can ensure. It has been perfectly legal to sell kosher and halal meat since the 1930s and that position remains unchanged. The only change is that since January this year—this is not to do with the judgment—it has not been possible for it to be classified in this country as organic.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I would like to register an interest in that I eat only kosher meat. I understood that labelling meat as organic is about how the animal is reared or fed, not about how it is killed. However, does the Minister agree that mechanical stunning methods are not fool-proof? Why does he think that campaigners often concentrate on shechita, for example? According to Defra, mis-stunning, which can cause an animal distress, affects about 1% of the total poultry slaughtered per annum—9.5 million—when the total number of poultry for the kosher market is just 1 million a year.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I note what my noble friend says and he is absolutely right: the number of mis-stunning incidents in abattoirs is very low, and that has been the case over a period of time. As I said, there is a delicate balance to be struck here between what might be desirable from an animal sentience point of view and what is desirable from a religious rights point of view. It is a very delicate balance but I think that we have it right in this country. Certainly, my department has had very few representations on this issue; I do not think that it is a major issue with the public.

[The Lord Bishop of Worcester]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s Question is about much more than meat. It was Lord Acton who wrote that religious freedoms are the foundation of political freedoms. Is it not true that the debate for which the noble Baroness is calling is very relevant, despite the record to which the Minister has drawn attention and of which we can be proud? Religious groups are feeling caught between the views of the majority in all sorts of situations and their own religious observance and conviction.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate makes a relevant point about the general issue and about having a debate. A debate may well be something that we should have, although I find it difficult to have it on a question of this nature. I draw the right reverend Prelate’s attention to the report of the Equality and Human Rights Commission in 2015—some three years ago—which indicated a general satisfaction with the balance that we have at the moment. However, I accept that there are issues to be addressed and I personally would welcome such a debate.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, the organic farming of animals has nothing to do with religious slaughter. I take on board what the Minister has said but, when he goes round mosques and synagogues, how will he explain to the worshippers that this Government and this country have agreed with European legislation that is both illogical and unfair?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord knows that I have the utmost respect for him, but I have already made the point that this judgment does not alter practice in this country; that was altered in January when the last organic body indicated that it would not certify as organic products that were not pre-stunned. I have to say to the noble Lord that I have been to hundreds of synagogues and mosques over the last three years and this has not been raised once.

Architects Act 1997 (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 18 February be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 25 March.

Motion agreed.

Property Guardians

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grender]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that property guardians are legally protected.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, property guardians have some legal protections and we are working to ensure that local authorities enforce their rights. However, depending on the arrangements in place, these protections are often fewer than those of tenants. Therefore, we are improving our guidance for property guardians so that they fully understand their rights and the difference between a licence and a tenancy. We are planning a programme of research better to understand the sector and to inform further work.

[Baroness Grender (LD)]

I thank the Minister for a meeting with him about this last week. Will he use this opportunity to reassure the growing number of property guardians that the full force of the current law will be applied and new regulations considered? Will he also make clear that the clauses that these people sign, which include no talking to the media or local authorities, mean nothing if they live with mould, rats, electrical hazards, fire doors screwed shut and more? They can and should report it, even when, as is often the case, the property is owned by a local authority.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Baroness for her interest in this. As far as we can tell, there are 5,000 to 7,000 property guardians—the figure is in that area. It is the case that some protections apply. Under the housing health and safety rating system, certain key rights apply, as do rights relating to electrical safety, gas safety and so on. I agree with the noble Baroness that those rights cannot be overridden by non-disclosure agreements. As I said, we are keen to ensure that existing rights are enforced and are planning work to look at the current position and inform possible further action.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant registered interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. Does the Minister think it acceptable that most property guardians must provide their own fire safety equipment when staying in a place as a guardian? Does he agree with the London Fire Brigade, which has raised safety concerns about these dangerous and inadequate arrangements?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I should be grateful to the noble Lord if we could arrange a meeting at which he can raise some of the matters he has just disclosed. As I said, under the housing health and safety rating system, as both tenants and licensees, property guardians have rights in relation to fire and hazards of the first category, which include fire protection. As I said, we are very keen to look at this situation. Some property guardianships are perfectly legitimate but they are not tenancies. For example, if a student looks after a house for a family member or friend in their summer break, that is perfectly acceptable. What is of concern is where the rights of people who are there on a much more permanent basis are overridden; that is what we are looking at.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)]

My Lords, what is the definition of a property guardian? Can these situations just be produced by simple means or does there need to be a full legal definition? I do not know, and I think many in the House would like clarification.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, thinking on my feet, it is not a straightforward matter. Rights attach to people as tenants; more limited rights attach to people as licensees. I do not think there is a statutory definition of a property guardian. We are looking at how to ensure that property guardians have a bedrock of rights in all situations so that people are properly protected. That is the key.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, the Netherlands has a regulator for guardianship properties, which has introduced a kitemarking scheme. Will the Government consider introducing a similar scheme here? I remind the House of my declaration of interest.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. I met the Property Guardian Providers Association, which might be the organisation to carry this forward. Some 80% of the market are members of that association. The remainder of the market is principally from Dot Dot Dot; a few others may well join that association. We are looking at that measure; it is certainly one possible way forward, similar to the Short Term Accommodation Association that applies in relation to Airbnb-type associations.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, standing between the occupiers, the property guardians in these empty properties, and the owners—local authorities or people who own an office block—are the property guardian providers, the companies that set up these operations. The Minister knows that MHCLG has a working group on the regulation of property agents, which I have the pleasure of chairing. Will he relay back to the Secretary of State that my working group would be very happy to look at the regulation of property guardian providers, just as we look at estate agents, letting agents and managers of leasehold properties?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I will certainly relay that message to the Secretary of State. I know he will be extremely pleased; we were hoping that the noble Lord would look at those.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the work he has taken forward since I introduced this issue in a Question for Short Debate in your Lordships’ House. Does he have any advice for local authorities, which use property guardian companies to get income from their empty properties, particularly on enforcing the law on decent conditions, which sometimes includes rogue landlord conditions?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Baroness for introducing this issue. How right she was to raise it in the way she did in October. I am grateful to her for that and our subsequent meetings. She is right about that problem, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, also referred. There is a question about who polices local authorities and the other public authorities in this area. We will want to look at that too, as the noble Baroness said. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Best, will want to comment on it as well.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister care to add to his shopping list the lack of recognition of residents’ associations in this context? At present, there is no way in which the law can be invoked to ensure that residents’ associations are party to these discussions.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord raises a somewhat different but important point. I quite agree. If I may, I will drop him a line on what we are doing in that general area, copy in noble Lords and place a copy in the Library. There are certainly concerns there, which I have shared on previous occasions with my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes.

Architects Act 1997 (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2019 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Architects Act 1997 (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations were laid before both Houses on 18 February 2019. They are part of the Government’s programme of legislation to ensure that if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and an implementation period, there continues to be a functioning legislative and regulatory regime.

Leaving the EU with a deal remains the Government’s top priority. This has not changed but the responsible thing to do is to accelerate no-deal preparations to ensure that the country is prepared for every eventuality. These regulations are made using powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to fix legal deficiencies in retained EU law to reflect that the UK will no longer be an EU member state after exit day. Our architectural sector is a global leader and plays a significant role in the British economy, with an export surplus of £437 million in 2015 and involvement in key global projects such as the Neues Museum in Berlin and the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History & Culture in Washington DC.

I trust that noble Lords will allow me to provide a brief overview of how the system works at present. The mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive enables EEA nationals to have certain qualifications recognised in another member state. This includes the recognition of suitably qualified architects. This is a reciprocal arrangement, allowing UK and other EEA nationals the opportunity easily to register to practice across Europe and UK practices to recruit the best European talent. The Architects Act 1997 sets out the specific procedures for registering architects in the United Kingdom. The recognition of qualifications of EEA applicants is carried out by the competent authority, the Architects Registration Board, an arm’s-length body of my department.

There are currently three routes to recognition for an EEA architect wishing to register in the United Kingdom. The main route to recognition in the United Kingdom for an EEA-national architect is through an automatic recognition system. To qualify for automatic recognition, an EEA national needs to meet three criteria. They must have an approved qualification—that is, one listed in Annexe V of the EU’s mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive—access to the profession of architect in an EEA member state and a statement from their home competent authority confirming that they are fit to practice.

A second route, known as general systems, provides recognition for EEA nationals who do not have an approved qualification. General systems allows EEAs national to map their qualification and experience against UK standards with the Architects Registration Board. An applicant is offered compensation measures, that is, the opportunity to undertake additional training to make up any differences in qualification. This is a long and costly process, which on average only four people pursue annually.

The third route facilitates the temporary or occasional provision of service. This allows EEA professionals to work in the United Kingdom in a regulated profession on a temporary basis while remaining established in their home state. Typically, fewer than 20 EEA architects pursue this option at any one time.

If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive will no longer apply in the United Kingdom. This statutory instrument ensures that UK architect practices can continue to recruit the best European talent and maintain their global reputation as world leaders in the field of architecture.

The policy intention is to provide the sector with confidence that almost all applicants can register in the same way after exit day as they do currently. This is the approach favoured by the sector, which recognises the skills brought by EEA architects as contributing positively to the UK’s reputation as a world leader. The instrument also allows applications made before exit day to be concluded under the current system as far as possible. For future applications after EU exit in a no-deal scenario, an individual holding an approved qualification will be able to join the UK register of architects if they have access to the profession of architect in their home state. The instrument will achieve this by freezing the current list of approved qualifications in the EU’s mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive. This approach will preserve access for UK practices to EEA-qualified architects. This process will be open to anyone with an EEA qualification and access to the profession in the corresponding EEA state, regardless of citizenship. Although temporary, this approach will provide continuity to the sector in the immediate period after we leave the EU with no deal and will be reviewed after exit.

We will remove general systems as a route to registration—noble Lords will recall that this is the currently the second route for qualification, but only four or five people pursue it in any one year—as it is a long and costly process which is not utilised often. It places a significant unnecessary burden on individuals and the Architects Registration Board. Therefore applicants without an approved qualification, including applicants who would have previously qualified for acquired rights, will now be able to pursue the prescribed exam route and undertake further examinations and periods of study to allow registration. This is the route currently utilised by third-country nationals.

We will encourage the regulator, the Architects Registration Board, to maintain its existing effective relationships with other EEA competent authorities. The instrument provides a legal basis for the ARB to continue communicating with other EEA competent authorities to facilitate recognition decisions, ensuring that it can verify that the applicant meets the UK’s high standard of competence.

This instrument places a requirement on the applicant to obtain the relevant information from their home competent authority, should the Architects Registration Board not be able to secure it. This is because currently the Architects Registration Board facilitates information sharing through the EU internal market information system. Without a deal we cannot be confident that the Architects Registration Board will continue to have access to this important information-sharing system. The instrument will remove the right of temporary and occasional provision of services as without guaranteed access to information systems and an agreed process for reciprocation, this route becomes unwieldy and of less value. This will have minimal impact on the sector as only 12 people are currently practising on that basis. Historically, fewer than 20 people have practised as an architect in the UK on a temporary and occasional basis at any one time.

Our overall approach to these amendments is in line with the policy and legal intent of the withdrawal Act and enacts the policy that the Government set out in a guidance document in January 2019. These regulations serve a very specific purpose: to prioritise stability and certainty if the United Kingdom leaves the EU without a deal or an implementation period. The regulations will ensure that the UK continues to have access to top European talent after we have left the EU, thereby helping to maintain the UK’s reputation as a global leader in architectural services. Thereafter, they provide a stable basis for Parliament to change the law where it is in the UK’s best interests to do so.

This instrument is necessary to ensure that the Architects Act continues to function appropriately if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and an implementation period. I hope that noble Lords will join me in supporting the draft regulations. I beg to move.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation. At present, one in six architects in the UK IS from the EU 27. Indeed, the Royal Institute of British Architects estimates that in London and the south-east the proportion is as high as a quarter. Many are employed by large firms with international portfolios of work, particularly on big infrastructure and construction projects such as airports. The contribution of EU 27 architects is not just numerical; it also relates to cultural, language and specialist skills, such as interior design or acoustics, which give high added value to the UK’s capacity to export its architectural services worldwide. Retaining access to EU 27 architects will therefore be very important to the continued prosperity of the architectural services export sector, which depends on having cosmopolitan skills available to deploy in designing schemes that will be built right across the world. One estimate is that this generates around £2 billion of export earnings a year. In addition, there are EU 27 architects resident abroad who are employed on UK building projects. Without them, work would be delayed and the industry’s capacity severely reduced.

This statutory instrument at least recognises that there is a looming problem. It could be said to be making the best of a bad job by attempting to continue ready access for qualified architects from the rest of Europe to the UK. However, paragraph 2.10 of the Explanatory Memorandum relates to individuals’ ability to come to the UK because they will be subject to Her Majesty’s Government’s immigration policy. In other words, first, there will be an income limit; secondly, there will be access only via an employer’s application and payment of an annual fee; and, thirdly, there will be no right to move from job to job. That last point is particularly relevant in this sector, where particular expertise may be needed only for a short time on any one project and it would be routine to move on to another firm with a similar project at the right stage for the exercise of a specialism. There is serious concern within the construction industry that the Government do not acknowledge the importance of the sector in delivering every other policy objective of homes, capital investment in the NHS and capital investment in education, nor do they seem to understand the key role that migrants at every skill level of the industry play in delivering the key outcomes that the Government want.

I have three questions for the Minister. First, does he recognise that no deal puts at risk not just the delivery of key government policy objectives in many fields but will undermine the export potential of a flourishing architectural services sector? Secondly, what assessment have the Government made of the median salary paid to EU 27 architects in the UK, and what is his department’s estimate of the reduction in numbers of architects coming to the UK as a consequence of this imposition of the universal immigration salary cap on this group?

Thirdly, will he look again at why the Government have decided to end the right to an individualised skills assessment for those coming from the EU 27 who may not have fully completed their accreditation? That is known as general systems, as set out in paragraph 2.12 of the Explanatory Memorandum. This has the appearance of pettiness, cutting out a route for a minority of potential employees for no good reason and simply souring the atmosphere further. I hope the Government understand that what may appear to be a short and simple statutory instrument in relation to architects could actually have profound implications for the international status and competitiveness of the architectural industry.

--- Later in debate ---

It is, of course, very disadvantageous, because architects are not able to move from one company to another. The point that the noble Lord has just made is very important, and I am surprised that the Government, in their so-called consultation, spoke only to the register itself, the technical organisation that deals with these things. They do not appear to have spoken to the RIBA. Of course, we have a rather curious system in Britain, whereby our professional body is not the regulator. That is all to do with some ridiculous concept that somehow or other, because there is a tiny number of architects who are not members of the RIBA, we have to have a separate organisation to deal with this. Normally, both are consulted, and I am surprised that the RIBA was not consulted.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

It was.

[Lord Deben]

Well, if it were consulted, why is it not listed in the Explanatory Memorandum, as far as I can see? Perhaps I have misread it—I apologise to my noble friend if I have—but I think it says that the ARB was consulted, or that officials

“have been in regular contact with ARB”.

The ARB is constantly referred to, not the RIBA. I have declared my interest, but it happens to be true that the RIBA is the body to which most architects would look for advice and to which they have given their concerns.

As this is not going to be a both-ways arrangement and because the Government do not want a no-deal exit from the European Union—although what the blazes they do want is increasingly difficult to understand, and I suspect that the negotiations would have gone much better if people had known in the first place what they wanted, because clearly not until very recently did anybody know anything about what we wanted—can the Minister give me an assurance that one of the things we will be seeking immediately in negotiations for some sort of reasonable exit—which of course would leave us in a worse position than we are in at the moment—but even if that was so, would be to make this a reciprocal arrangement and that that reciprocity would be at least as good as the present reciprocity?

That leads me to my last point, which is on the Immigration Rules. The architectural profession is remarkably badly paid. If you look at the average wage of an architect, it is remarkably low for a member of a professional body. So I am concerned, as was the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, that we should not allow the Immigration Rules to interfere with our ability to recruit from the rest of Europe. It seems to me that this is a serious double jeopardy system. Why do we have to have these rules? Surely we could have had, in these regulations, a very simple system which said that if you got a job with a British architect registered with the ARB you would be able to have that job. Why do we have to double-do it? Is there not a much more sensible way, which is merely to do exactly what we do at the moment and say publicly that we would like this to continue to be reciprocal, although we do not have the ability to make it reciprocal ourselves?

I remind my noble friend of the figures that have been quoted: it is likely that one in four of architects in the London area come from the rest of Europe, so this is no minor matter. Therefore, I hope that we can have assurances that the Government will seek, under any agreement, to have reciprocity and, secondly, that the Minister will look again at the idea that we have to insist upon going through our immigration arrangements, when we could have a perfectly simple system, like the one we have at the moment. We should look very carefully at any income limit in any case because it is likely to affect newly-qualified architects from the rest of Europe in a way that would do our profession no good. It would interfere with, and indeed endanger, the very large amount of money that Britain earns through the primacy of our architectural profession. When you are talking about what may be £2 billion, you are talking about a very serious amount of money. If we cannot recruit newly-qualified experts from the rest of Europe to a shockingly underpaid profession, that would do us a great deal of harm.

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, not for the first time, Newcastle is united in this Grand Committee. I think we would both welcome the noble Lord, who has characteristically analysed the Government’s proposals in a very effective way.

This instrument will freeze the list of architectural qualifications that are recognised immediately before exit day in the event of a no-deal Brexit. As a result, an individual holding one of those qualifications will be eligible to join the UK register of architects if they have access to the profession of architect in their home state. This will allow access to the workforce of EU-qualified and EEA-qualified architects. The register of qualified architects of the UK held by the Architects Registration Board currently includes 40,650 members, 17% of whom were admitted under EU directive procedures. Given that significant number, it is astonishing that no impact assessment appears to have been prepared for this SI. The UK must of course continue to attract the best talent after Brexit and have an immigration system that responds to the needs of industry, especially in the context of the architectural sector. The London’s Architectural Sector report states that the city’s architecture industry is worth £1.7 billion and is growing at 7% every year. That figure is set against the industry’s total value nationally of £4.8 billion, a significant contribution to the economy nationally.

The SI makes little attempt to make up for the damage that the industry has faced since the referendum, which has caused an alarming amount of uncertainty for businesses in the last two and half years. Since the referendum, projects up and down the country have been postponed as this period of chaos has badly damaged the investment market. An article on Consultancy.uk referred to Global by Design, published in 2018 by the RIBA, which said that 68% of architects have already seen Brexit impact their revenue stream as they have had projects put on hold and moreover, crucially, that 74% of architects regard access to the EU single market as necessary if the industry’s international workload is to grow. Already 40% of practices have had projects in the EU cancelled since the referendum.

The regulations fail to protect the recognition of UK-qualified architects’ qualifications in the EEA in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Those architects will have to rely on the individual registration policies of the 27 member states. The Government must look to establish a new mutual recognition agreement with the EU as soon as possible in order to provide reciprocity, and a date for that would be very welcome. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response on that issue.

The Explanatory Memorandum states:

“The applicant’s ability to establish in the UK will be dependent on Government immigration policies”.


However, the Government’s immigration Bill has stalled and a £30,000 salary requirement for skilled migrants has been suggested. How many architects from EU or EEA countries living in the UK earn more than £30,000 now? How many architects have already registered with the Government’s settled-status scheme? Being a tier 2 sponsor for those earning more than £30,000 is difficult for many architecture firms because the process is lengthy and expensive. Have the Government done any work with the sector and the RIBA to assess exactly how much it will cost and whether the sector can bear the cost? According to the RIBA, the number of EU architects registering to practise in the UK has dropped by 42% since 2016, and 60% of them here at the moment say that they would consider leaving. That would damage architecture as a service both in this country and abroad; it would clearly suffer.

Architectural qualification requirements are frozen during the review period. How long does the Minister expect that period to last? How will architects come and work in the UK with new qualifications during this period? Paragraph 2.14 of the Explanatory Memorandum states:

“After EU exit, the ARB may lose access to the Internal Market Information (IMI) system. This facilitates communication between competent authorities. As a result, this instrument places the requirement to provide written verification from their home competent authority on the applicant should ARB be unable to secure it directly from the relevant competent authority”.


What assessment have the Government carried out to determine the ease of getting this written verification? Does it differ between authorities? Paragraph 2.12 states:

“This instrument removes the registration route of General Systems, which enables EU and EEA applicants who do not meet the automatic recognition criteria to work with the ARB to map what experience they do have against the UK criteria, and gain the experience necessary”.


Will the ARB offer any additional help to get candidates to work in the UK?

Finally, what estimate have the Government made of Brexit’s impact on UK practices and individuals currently, or potentially, working in Europe? What steps, if any, are they taking to create a new system including a reciprocal system of accepted professional qualifications?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who responded to the SI. I will seek to deal with the various points they have made.

First, the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, rightly emphasised the importance of qualified architects from the EU 27. Of course, this measure goes a bit beyond that because it covers EEA-qualified architects from Liechtenstein, Norway and Iceland too. Switzerland is in a similar position but the EU 27 countries make up the most significant part of the regulations. I do not deny that the regulations are important for the United Kingdom—indeed, I would affirm it—because of the impact they would otherwise have on individuals practising here or seeking to do so in future, and because of the importance of this sector to the UK economy. The regulations are therefore important for those positions.

Like other noble Lords, the noble Lord referred to the general immigration position, rather than anything specific to architects as such. Reference has been made to the £30,000 threshold. I should say that as things stand, it is not the defined and final position of the Home Office. Rather, it is a recommendation of the Migration Advisory Committee so we will feed in information regarding different sectors. We are working with our professional business service colleagues in BEIS to collect information from architecture firms around the country on what the threshold should be. I agree with my noble friend about the position of architects as a profession: on the whole—with exceptions, of course—their earnings tend to be on the low side. That will certainly be a relevant factor and one we would wish to pursue.

The noble Lord went on to discuss the recognition of the general systems in a no-deal scenario. He could not understand why we were not pursuing that. I am not sure whether this was grasped, and it may be my fault, but I emphasise that we are seeking to freeze the qualifications that are recognised. This does not mean that those who go on to get those qualifications later on cannot then practise in this country. They can while this remains the legal position, so after this is passed it would not debar anyone with these qualifications from practising in the UK. Indeed, while this remains the law it seeks to facilitate that. It is not those people who already have the qualifications; it is recognising those qualifications. Anyone getting that qualification later on will certainly be able to practise in the United Kingdom. I remind noble Lords that the number of people using the general systems qualification is four or five a year. Of those who make inquiries about it, 96% do not pursue this route because it is very cumbersome and difficult, so it is viewed as better that they qualify in the way we are setting out.

Housing: Future Homes Standard

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Future Homes Standard announced in the Spring Statement will include measures to ensure accessible and adaptable standards are met.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

The Government will consult later this year on our plans to introduce the future homes standard for new-build homes to be future-proofed with low-carbon heating and world-leading levels of energy efficiency. Separately, the Government are currently working on a review of accessibility standards for new homes.

[Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. This is so important, because only 7% of our housing stock is accessible and adaptable. Will the Government use this opportunity to ensure that developers are required to build to the more inclusive, accessible and adaptable category 2 standard?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for her continued—and quite right—tenacity in this area. Document M, which relates to the accessibility standards, will be reviewed this year as part of a review of all building regulations, consequent on the Government’s policy and the Hackitt review.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

First, does the Minister agree with the Building Research Establishment that the six years it will take to introduce the future homes standard is an exceptionally long time? Can he tell us why it cannot be done sooner? Secondly, this is an extraordinary opportunity to introduce an integrated set of lifetime homes standards into a set of standards that will hold for ever. This is surely what we need for an ageing population. If our ageing population could stay in their own homes while they grow old and frail, that would help the health service and the care services enormously in terms of costs and benefits. Does the Minister agree that we must not miss this opportunity?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, document L relates to carbon standards in relation to heating and environmental standards. Document M, as she also knows, relates to accessibility. They are part of a suite of documents, and each has to be reviewed separately, consequent on Hackitt, to ensure that we get the programme right. The noble Baroness is right to say that six years is a considerable time. The target is, of course, “by 2025”, so I can offer her the reassurance that it could be achieved within that time, earlier than 2025. But we want to get it right, and it is important to have a thorough consultation.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Thomas of Winchester mentioned the category 2 standard. Building homes to that standard is currently optional, but it has been adopted in some places. That is the standard that reflects the lifetime homes standard, so does the Minister agree that it should be made compulsory?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am very much in favour of the review, but I do not want to prejudge it; it is important that it be left to take its own course. Picking up a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, it is certainly important to examine the durability of the standards with a view to not only people who are disabled but people who are ageing. We have an ageing population, and the Government are very much committed to the industrial strategy grand challenge mission on ageing. That is quite a mouthful, but it means aiming for people to live five extra years in good health by 2035, so it plays into this agenda. However, I do not think that we should prejudge the consultation.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as president of the Sustainable Energy Association. We greatly welcome the Chancellor’s move to require housebuilders to up their standards of energy efficiency and carbon-neutral housebuilding. The technique of using building regulations to make housebuilders do things they otherwise would not must apply also to accessible housing. Exhorting housebuilders to do the right thing and produce more accessible homes does not get us anywhere. They are doing very well as it is, thank you. We need those building regulations changed in a compulsory way, as the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, stated, to do the great things the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, has advocated for so long.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord does much good work in this area, for which I thank him. He makes a powerful case but it is for those reasons that we had the Hackitt review, are holding a review of building regulations and will act as a consequence. Things are moving in that direction. Those are not the only things happening, of course—for example, the ECO places an obligation on energy companies so that energy bills are lower and less carbon energy is used—but they are central. Again, I speak to the importance of document M on accessible housing. The requirement to take account of the interests of people with disabilities and an ageing population is provided for in the NPPF—the planning framework—and the Neighbourhood Planning Act. It is all moving in that direction.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my relevant interests in the register. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that he fully supports the need for future-proofed new homes but does not think we should wait until 2025 to tackle energy efficiency and carbon reduction. In that case, can the Minister explain why the Government scrapped the zero-carbon homes plan in 2015, and in 2016, during the passage of the dreaded Housing and Planning Act, opposed the introduction of carbon compliance standards for new homes, which would have helped reduce carbon emissions and given people lower fuel bills?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, first, it is important to note that the energy standard for new homes has improved by more than 30% since 2010, reducing energy bills by £200 per annum per household on average. That is indicative of the progress made. The noble Lord referred to previous policies; to some extent, they depended on offsetting, which did not have a direct impact. This measure will: it will look at things such as heat pumps, solar panels and the replacement of old gas boilers. That will have a direct impact, unlike the old offsetting principle. To that extent, it is very much to be welcomed.